Climate of Failure: how alternate energy dreams are pie in the sky solutions for emissions

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Dr. Roger Pielke Jr. had a worthwhile guest essay in Foreign Policy titled: Climate of Failure published last year that Dr. Judith Curry has made a post about today that she calls a “good topic for Sunday discussion”. I agree. While I see many of the same things she does, I also see a different path forward. Her last takeaway point is:

… focus on goals that can actually be accomplished and  getting people who think differently to act alike.

We have the technology to do that in our hands now, all we need is the will. If it weren’t for the need to make nuclear bombs (of which uranium based nuclear power is a spinoff), we might already have been there. Few people know this, but the demonization of coal didn’t start with environmentalists, it started with nuclear power advocates, but that is a story for another day.

Here are some excerpts from Pielke Jr’s essay in FP:

Environmentalists are just now waking up to the reality that if we’re going to stop global warming, we’re going to have to be a lot more politically savvy.

So what’s the next step? For years — decades, even — science has shown convincingly that human activities have an impact on the planet. That impact includes but is not limited to carbon dioxide. We are indeed running risks with the future climate through the unmitigated release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and none of the schemes attempted so far has made even a dent in the problem. While the climate wars will go on, characterized by a poisonous mix dodgy science, personal attacks, and partisan warfare, the good news is that progress can yet be made outside of this battle.

The heady days of early 2009, when advocates for global action on climate change anticipated world leaders gathering later that year around a conference table in Copenhagen to reach a global agreement, are but a distant memory. Today, with many of these same leaders focusing their attention on jump starting economic growth, environmental issues have taken a back seat. Leaders’ attention to climate policy is not coming back — at least not in any form comparable to the plans being discussed just a few years ago.  A rising GDP, all else equal, leads to more emissions. But if there is one ideological commitment that unites nations and people around the world in the early 21st century, it is that GDP growth is non-negotiable.

Stabilizing the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere would require more than 90 percent of the energy we consume to come from carbon-free sources like nuclear, wind, or solar. Policymakers often discuss reducing annual emissions by 80 percent from 1990 levels. But emissions today are already more than 45 percent higher than in 1990, so that higher level implies a need to cut by more than 90 percent from today’s levels. Put another way, in round numbers, we could keep at most 10 percent of our current energy supply, and 90 percent or more would have to be replaced with a carbon-free alternative. Today, about 10 percent of the energy that we consume globally comes from carbon-free sources — leaving a long way to go.

Consider this: If the goal is to stabilize the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere at a low-level by 2050 (in precise terms, at 450 parts per million or less), then the world would need to deploy a nuclear power plant worth of carbon free energy every day between now and 2050. For wind or solar, the figures are even more daunting.

Natural gas is not a long-term solution to the challenge of stabilizing carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, because it is still carbon intensive, but the rapidly declining U.S. emissions prove an essential policy point: Make clean(er) energy cheap, and dirty energy will be quickly displaced. To secure cheap energy alternatives requires innovation — technological, but also institutional and social.  The innovation challenge is enormous, but so is the scale of the problem. A focus on innovation — not on debates over climate science or a mythical high carbon price — is where we’ll make process.

The vast complexity of the climate issue offers many avenues for action across a range of different issues. What we need is the wisdom to have a constructive debate on climate policy options without all the vitriolic proxy battles. The anger and destructiveness seen from both sides of this debate will not be going away, of course, but constructive debate will move on to focus on goals that can actually be accomplished.

Full essay here: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/06/climate_of_failure

Notes from Anthony:

“…the world would need to deploy a nuclear power plant worth of carbon free energy every day between now and 2050. For wind or solar, the figures are even more daunting.”

Given the size of the task presented, and the “herding cats” nature of individual sovereign nation economies, it seems to me that the promise of clean energy alternatives as a solution to carbon emissions is essentially stillborn.

In my opinion, Thorium based nuclear power is the way forward. It has all the benefits of zero carbon emissions, plus it has less problematic fissile by-products than comparable Uranium235  based power systems. Plus, the fuel components of thorium based power systems aren’t generally compatible with current fission and thermonuclear bomb making technologies, making such technology less of a terrorist action risk. Thorium is estimated to be about three to four times more abundant than uranium in the Earth’s crust.

Surprisingly, the US has already had (and discarded) a Thorium based power plant. The very first nuclear power plant at Shippingport , which converted to Thorium and began operating in August 1977:

It used pellets made of thorium dioxide and uranium-233 oxide; initially the U233 content of the pellets was 5-6% in the seed region, 1.5-3% in the blanket region and none in the reflector region. It operated at 236 MWt, generating 60 MWe and ultimately produced over 2.1 billion kilowatt hours of electricity. After five years the core was removed and found to contain nearly 1.4% more fissile material than when it was installed, demonstrating that breeding had occurred

It was decommissioned in 1982 and dismantled, the former site has been cleaned up and released for unrestricted use without any radioactivity issues.

Just think of the good people like Bill McKibben could do if they got behind ideas like Thorium power, rather than wasting their efforts trying to tear down existing energy supplies and replace them with impotent alternatives.

Here are two videos on Thorium based nuclear power, the first is  30 minute documentary,

The second is a 5 minute intro into LFTR reactors for the time-challenged.

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Gnomish
September 3, 2013 1:22 am

I’m with Janice.
No evidence has been adduced to support the assertion that CO2 is any kind of problem whatsoever.
The dogma don’t hunt.
The precautionary principle, fundamental ploy of fearmongers.without.facts, is a sleight of mind to extort and manipulate and I deeply resent that.
Fraud and intimidation are anti-reason. it’s nasty, hateful and evil. So stop it, Pielke. Just stop.

Frank Kotler
September 3, 2013 4:48 am

#
Ron House says:
September 2, 2013 at 6:18 pm

“Well we agree on a lot it seems.”

Yeah… I think we disagree on quite a bit, too. I think nuclear power is a bad idea. I think it might be our “punishment” for not thinking of anything better – especially if the carbonophobes get their way.

” The problem with our current time in general seems to be that you can’t trust anyone.”
That was what I was getting at (trying to). The “experts”, for the most part, are the guys whose paycheck depends on it – like CAGW.

” Is nuclear really cheaper than coal? I don’t know.”
I don’t know, either. When you stop shovelling coal into a coal plant, it goes out. When an earthquake and tsunami hit a nuke plant… well, we shall see what happens. It’s gotta have some impact on the bottom line.

“I do know that the uranium mine in Australia uses staggering amounts of water and electricity to operate.”
—————————-
The uranium probably generates a staggaring amount of electricity, too, so that may not be as bad as it sounds.

“Is France just paying Australia to run a coal power plant here by proxy to power homes in France by a very convoluted procedure?”
—–
That’s an amusing thought! 🙂

“Who knows? Who even knows who to trust to analyse this properly and tell us an accurate answer?”

Crickets…

“Re Fukushima, I do know that the hairy scary reports at the time were baloney, the “radiation” they ran about frothing at the mouth over was locally dangerous, but burned itself out quickly.”

Did it? Seems to still be plenty “locally dangerous”.

“What about the current story?”

The latest story I read – I’m not vouching for this – had the government, not TEPCO, freezing a wall of soil around the plant to stop the movement of contaminated water. 30 meters deep, laced with tubes through which coolant is to be circulated at forty below. Some emergency cooling system, eh?

“I don’t have the facts to know, but given the fact-free nature of the reports from the same news agencies before, I won’t waste a second worrying about it unless they show proper evidence, which isotopes, how much, where it has escaped to, etc.”

Depths of the ocean, with Trenberth’s missing heat. 🙂 Seriously, there is supposedly some water contaminated with something getting into the ocean. The Pacific’s pretty big, I don’t imagine it’ll do much harm. But it wasn’t “supposed” to happen. It wasn’t what we were “promised”. So when we hear of the “promise” of thorium or fusion… Stay skeptical!
#

September 3, 2013 6:55 am

Janice Moore says:
September 2, 2013 at 10:45 pm
.
***************************************
Gunga Din — France sends their nuclear fission waste to the USA, and we happily and safely bury it for a fee. And… MORE POWER TO THEM. #(:))
=======================================================================
Thanks. I thought maybe Godzilla ate it.

Janice Moore
September 3, 2013 10:44 am

Well, Gunga Din (at 6:55am)…… one day, when everyone’s backs were turned down at the railroad yard,……………. HE DID! (0.0)
That’s how he got his super-monster powers.

Mike G
September 3, 2013 11:09 am

Richard S Courtney
You agree with Dr. Peilke more than you think. You stated we should not take “precipitate” actions. That is precisely what he is saying when he says it is prudent to reduce emissions since we don’t know how a complex system will respond to them. You’ve made his point.

September 3, 2013 11:54 am

Roger, your reply did not address my point, made here and here, that climate models cannot resolve the purported impact of human GHG emissions.
You also did not address my point, made two days ago, that the paper you offered as proof that CO2 was impacting climate did not supply error bars on any figure and was therefore physically meaningless. This is a serious issue to have left unaddressed.
Unaddressed, this point remains intact: that climate models are unable to resolve the purported effect of GHG emissions on climate. This being true, and I can demonstrate that it’s true (invite me to give a seminar), means there is no evidence whatever that recent climate warming has any connection at all to human GHG emissions. I.e., RP jr’s position is insupportable.
The whole IPCC position is a crock. It was a crock in 1995 when Ben Santer composed the lie about a ‘discernable human influence’ on climate and it remains a crock today. The question is why any competent physical scientist would participate in it.

September 3, 2013 12:16 pm

Mike G:
Your post at September 3, 2013 at 11:09 am says in total

Richard S Courtney
You agree with Dr. Peilke more than you think. You stated we should not take “precipitate” actions. That is precisely what he is saying when he says it is prudent to reduce emissions since we don’t know how a complex system will respond to them. You’ve made his point.

NO!
He and I fundamentally disagree about the need for actions to inhibit GHG emissions.
The only agreement we have is that we disagree.
Either you have failed to read what we have each written in this thread or you are trying to be clever (and failing).
I spell out our difference in my post at September 2, 2013 at 7:40 am and this is a link which jumps to it
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/01/climate-of-failure-how-alternate-energy-dreams-are-pie-in-the-sky-solutions-for-emissions/#comment-1406056
Please read it.
Also, I provided detail to that explanation in my post at September 2, 2013 at 12:02 pm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/01/climate-of-failure-how-alternate-energy-dreams-are-pie-in-the-sky-solutions-for-emissions/#comment-1406175
where I wrote to him about his desire to take the precipitate action of reducing greenhouse gas *(GHG, notably CO2) emissions

However, in your reply (which I have linked to aid others finding it) you point out that my desire to “avoid precipitate actions” has risks and you state some. I agree, but everything has risks (even getting out of bed). Importantly, any actions would also have risks: please remember the Law Of Unintended Consequences.
My view is that it is best to avoid precipitate actions until we know they are needed. I understand your view to be that we should act to avoid the risk of potential effects.

Richard

Mark
September 3, 2013 4:18 pm

Anthony,
Thank you for running your website and maintaining a high standard for technical accuracy.
I’d like to make a correction to one statement related to the relative proliferation resistance of U-233 vs. U-235. Both are Special Nuclear Materials – both can be used to make a nuclear weapon. The significant quantity, defined by the International Atomic Energy Agency as that amount of SNM needed to make a nuclear weapon accounting for all production losses, is LOWER for U-233 than for U-235. Using U-233, only 8 kg of material is needed while 25 kg of U-235 is needed.
In addition, Uranium must be enriched in U-235 above 20% to become weapon-usable (the remainder being the more prevalent isotope U-238) . Natural uranium is only 0.7% U-235 and most low-enrichment fuels used by nuclear reactors are about 5%. Enriching uranium above the level used in nuclear reactors to 20% or more is an extremely costly and time consuming process achievable only by relatively wealthy nations (like Iran). On the other hand, separation of the U-233 bred from thorium requires nothing more than an inexpensive chemical process (albeit very hazardous) available to many sub-state terrorist organizations.

Zeke
September 3, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: energy The other side of the equation is the delivery of the energy to homes and industries. Increases in digitization and centralization make the Grids in the US more vulnerable to 1. hackers, 2. Electromagnetic Pulse Weapons, 3. Coronal Mass Ejections, or Carrington Events; 4. and worst of ALL, increasing government control and rationing, including the remote control of home appliances.
Say no to “smart grids,” it’s a fool’s errand.
ref: http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/electricity.htm

Janice Moore
September 3, 2013 7:35 pm

I agree, Zeke (at 5:47pm).

Tsk Tsk
September 3, 2013 8:28 pm

Frank Kotler says:
September 3, 2013 at 4:48 am

The latest story I read – I’m not vouching for this – had the government, not TEPCO, freezing a wall of soil around the plant to stop the movement of contaminated water. 30 meters deep, laced with tubes through which coolant is to be circulated at forty below. Some emergency cooling system, eh?

“I don’t have the facts to know, but given the fact-free nature of the reports from the same news agencies before, I won’t waste a second worrying about it unless they show proper evidence, which isotopes, how much, where it has escaped to, etc.”

Depths of the ocean, with Trenberth’s missing heat. 🙂 Seriously, there is supposedly some water contaminated with something getting into the ocean. The Pacific’s pretty big, I don’t imagine it’ll do much harm. But it wasn’t “supposed” to happen. It wasn’t what we were “promised”. So when we hear of the “promise” of thorium or fusion… Stay skeptical!

==========================================================================
I just got back from Tokyo. I saw exactly zero concern about Fukushima. I would be happy to return and monitor the situation if you want to pay for my ticket and accommodations. I’ll even relocate to Tohoku to be near the reactor (but I get a free pass on the Shinkansen to anywhere I want on the weekends). Onegai shimasu?
Is TEPCO filled with incompetent bureaucratic idiots? Sure. Has Fukushima killed a single person due to the reactor? No. At best there is some slight statistical risk years in the future. As to the latest leaks these are contaminated water tanks we’re talking about. A few leaked and some of that spill leaked past the containment wall. Freezing the ground seems like an awfully exotic way to contain the problem, but I’m certainly not worried about ice flowing into the ocean on any relevant time scale. So again, with an ancient reactor design pressed well beyond its design limits we have no deaths, a miniscule increased risk of cancer years in the future and an exclusion zone of about 300 square miles. And even with Fukushima’s zero deaths nuclear has the best safety record of any electricity source.

Zeke
September 3, 2013 8:30 pm

Well thank you so much Janice. It would be interesting for commenters here to get on this subject one day.
I think that in the key is diversity – of fossil fuels for ground and air transportation, of types of power generation including thorium reactors (and yes those developed by E Lerner, Randell Mills, and Andrea Rossi), and an abundance of mini-grids would be safest, and have the most flexibility and stability in the event of an EMP attack or a solar event.
Cars would also be incapacitated by an EMP, but perhaps a simple faraday cage installed under the hood with a ground wire might prevent the electronics from being destroyed?

Tsk Tsk
September 3, 2013 8:58 pm

Mark says:
September 3, 2013 at 4:18 pm
Anthony,
Thank you for running your website and maintaining a high standard for technical accuracy.
I’d like to make a correction to one statement related to the relative proliferation resistance of U-233 vs. U-235. Both are Special Nuclear Materials – both can be used to make a nuclear weapon. The significant quantity, defined by the International Atomic Energy Agency as that amount of SNM needed to make a nuclear weapon accounting for all production losses, is LOWER for U-233 than for U-235. Using U-233, only 8 kg of material is needed while 25 kg of U-235 is needed.
In addition, Uranium must be enriched in U-235 above 20% to become weapon-usable (the remainder being the more prevalent isotope U-238) . Natural uranium is only 0.7% U-235 and most low-enrichment fuels used by nuclear reactors are about 5%. Enriching uranium above the level used in nuclear reactors to 20% or more is an extremely costly and time consuming process achievable only by relatively wealthy nations (like Iran). On the other hand, separation of the U-233 bred from thorium requires nothing more than an inexpensive chemical process (albeit very hazardous) available to many sub-state terrorist organizations.

=========================================================================
Which probably explains why most arsenals these days don’t use enriched uranium and instead use plutonium which is trivially separated from the waste of a reactor. Of course that isn’t metallic plutonium, aka bang-stuff, but again we’re talking relatively standard redox chemistry to get it into that form. And no, I’m not claiming that all of our power reactors are bomb making reactors, but it is easier to separate out the bomb making material from a present day PWR/BWR than it would be for a LFTR.
As Brian points out you have to do the separation when it’s protactinium because you get both 232U and 233U in the fuel blanket as a result of operation. You did remember about the 232U, didn’t you? This requires exactly the same enrichment you describe for 235/238U, but with a twist. The problem is that 232U is a hard gamma emitter that would not only be very good at killing your supposed terrorists, but would light up like a Christmas tree for any of the major powers to see.
So ask yourself if 233U is such wonderful bang-stuff why have there been exactly zero 233U weapons created? If it were truly that easy don’t you think Kim-Il-Idiot or A Q Khan or the Isrealis/South Africans, or the Chinese, or the Iranians would have gone that route? Even just one of them?

Zeke
September 3, 2013 8:58 pm

Correction: I think the key is diversity – of fossil fuels for ground and air transportation, of types of power generation including thorium reactors (and yes those developed by E Lerner, Randell Mills, and Andrea Rossi as well), and an abundance of mini-grids. Diversity would provide the most safety and have the most flexibility and stability in the event of an EMP attack, hackers, or a solar event.
Thanks.

Janice Moore
September 3, 2013 10:08 pm

Well, Zeke, you can say that again. (:))
Well-written statement of a great idea.

Frank Kotler
September 3, 2013 10:17 pm

Tsk Tsk says:
September 3, 2013 at 8:28 pm
———————————————-
Thanks for the reply, and for your observations from the scene. I value observations from the scene (PhD or no) far above what I read in the paper (figuratively speaking)!
What’s the record for an exclusion zone – area and time – for any of the more dangerous ways of producing electricity?

neilfutureboy
September 9, 2013 9:42 am

The problem is that when “alternate energy” supporters call for support for this they don’t really mean “alternative from what we have now” but “alternative to what works”. Thus nuclear isn’t top of their list and windmills are. They are also uninterested in solar satellite power, ocean thermal OTECS or even “cold fusion” LENR (which I wouldn’t bet the farm on but would bet many spare billions), shale gas,methane hydrates. These are systems that may, or in the case of fission & shale, do, work. Shale gas may no longer be alternate but it was when this started.
In practice what the ecos require of an alternate is that it doesn’t work because they cannot actually come out and say they want to go back to medievalism (that would not be popular) so they support things that look modern but won’t work.

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