h/t Dr. Willie Soon; WUWT recently covered a Guardian claim that “total climate meltdown cannot be stopped“. It turns out this claim is too pessimistic, even for climate scientist Michael Mann.
Bill McGuire, the scientist quoted by the original Guardian article, seems to feel his words were misinterpreted.
The Guardian quoted McGuire as saying “I know a lot of people working in climate science who say one thing in public but a very different thing in private. In confidence, they are all much more scared about the future we face, but they won’t admit that in public. I call this climate appeasement and I believe it only makes things worse. The world needs to know how bad things are going to get before we can hope to start to tackle the crisis.“.
How does this reconcile with McGuire apparently accusing the Guardian headline writers of misinterpreting his words, with their headline ‘Soon it will be unrecognisable’: total climate meltdown cannot be stopped, says expert ‘Soon the world will be unrecognisable’: is it still possible to prevent total climate meltdown?. <- Note The Guardian updated their headline, details below.
I invite readers to read the Guardian article which triggered this scramble, see if you can figure out what McGuire’s problem is. I thought the headline was a fair summary of the content – but make up your own minds.
As for Mann, he seems to have taken upon himself the role of Guardian of the Balance.
Keeping the climate alarm movement going appears to be a delicate balancing act between fear and despair. Michael Mann frequently warns activists about the dangers of “climate doomism”, pessimism so intense people lose the motivation to be activists. From what I have read, their ideal activist must be worried enough to be motivated, but must still believe their personal intervention can help avert the crisis.
Of course, not everyone who absorbs the message of climate crisis achieves the mental balance climate leaders encourage.
In 2019 leading drug rehabilitation specialist Dr. Alex Wodak provided an explanation for why drug addiction is soaring, when he testified to an Aussie state government ice inquiry that climate despair is one of the factors which leads young people to destroy their lives with hard drugs.
Update (EW): The Guardian has amended their headline, and provided the following explanation :- The headline of this article was amended on 2 August 2022 to more accurately reflect the concern expressed by Bill McGuire. As the article made clear, he believes climate breakdown is inevitable but that a total cataclysm can still be stopped.
The guardian is just a printed version of used toilet roll……
First chuckle of my day (-:
and that is all it is good for after the panic merchants have horded all the real toilet paper
I’m in despair as I went long and have hoarded hundreds of rolls of premium toilet paper and like I believe it was David Middleton tried to trade 40 rolls for a new Ford Bronco pick-up but without success! lol
At least their printed version makes a useful substitute
And they are both found in the same place.
Climate Despair ™ is obviously the new excuse for doing anything damaging or illegal. It used to be that a difficult childhood or abuse was the go-to automatic excuse. It’s obviously much better to say that Climate Despair ™ made you do it!
Perhaps, in some cases it might just be an excuse. In other cases sincere belief in climate doomsday might be the factor which drives people to behave like there is no tomorrow.
Don’t forget, many of these kids truly believe they have no future. The emotional pain can still be real, even if the problem is imaginary.
I knew a young woman who believed, because she was epileptic, nobody would ever want a relationship with her. She was wrong – she was beautiful, and her problem was well managed by drugs – there were plenty of people who wanted relationship with her. But she thought anyone who said anything nice to her was being insincere. She lived like there was no tomorrow.
Eric,
many years, probably 20 or more, ago listening to a BBC Radio programme with a phone in element, the programme was about Global Warming* and what to do about it. One of the callers was a young person in a state of total panic about the soon to be upon us climate disaster, within 2 or 3 years if I remember right. They were almost in tears while trying to convince the show host that something had to be done now otherwise there’d be no tomorrow.
Over the years I wonder what happened to that person, do they still think the planet is doomed, are they still with us even.
I thought it sad at the time and still do
*It was still Global Warming then and hadn’t expanded into all the other things it is now
I ran across a medical journal article talking about depression in young people caused by the (supposed) climate crisis. There seemed to be no consideration of the possibility that the contributing beliefs, no matter how apocalyptic, could be anything but a greater awareness of the catastrophe.
An extreme example of this phenomenon not involving teens would be that guy in British Columbia who was requesting assisted suicide on the grounds of not wanting to see what happens when the climate climate worsens. In that case the response to anyone who suggested that it might be not be that dire, or that his ideas might be somewhat unhinged, was that you would agree if you had properly done your homework on the topic.
Monty Python covered the “difficult childhood” in the famous “Church Detective” sketch. I don’t remember all the details, but the Sergeant-Vicar solved the crime by praying to God:
[Michael Palin]: “O Lord, we beseech thee — who was it committed this foul deed?”
[screechy Terry Jones as God]: “The one in the braces (suspenders to we US types) — he done it!”
[Terry Jones again, as criminal]: “It’s a fair cop — but society’s to blame!”
I thought the go to excuse was racism and the criminal justice system.
Well. global warming is racist.
Look at all the brown people living under high temperatures. That must be why they are all going north to the U.S.
Of course that doesn’t explain why they aren’t rushing to the far south but, logic is not needed for the green loonies.
Yeah, Brad, not many people seen racing to the southern part of South America.
Tis definitely the Excuse DeJour
“on the verge of breakthrough climate legislation that can limit planetary warming below the 1.5C/3F danger limit”
I don’t particularly want to find out what “legislation” these authoritarian maniacs are working on. We’ll all end up starving in the cold if they keep it up.
You ARE the carbon they want to reduce.
Is that the legislation being considered by China and India?
There is no chance whatever that the rise of CO2 in the atmosphere will be checked. Do get used to it. Check the ECS
To be fair, this is what the Guardian article says:
The crucial point, he argues, is that there is now no chance of us avoiding a perilous, all-pervasive climate breakdown. We have passed the point of no return.
But that is not a quote from Bill McGuire. At no point is Bill McGuire quoted as saying anything like that. So the headline is a fair summary of the content but the content is not a fair summary of what Bill McGuire said.
My understanding from reading the tweet is McGuire is complaining about the headline, not the content – so presumably he read that and nodded it through. Or failed to read it, and is now complaining after the fact.
In Michael Mann’s case, possibly he is stepping back a bit. The groundswell of criticism of UK Climateers over the 2-day “heat wave” was somewhat unnerving for alarmists. They also are likely to understand that the Climate-Policy-Caused skyrocketing world inflation, food shortage, anger of populace à la Sri Lanka…is only going to get worse.
“We have passed the point of no return” – dangerous thinking for keeping the torrent of money cascading over the climate alarmists.
Indeed. It’s an earner!
So, who’s surprised?
It caters for a particularly self-loathing readership
Komment ist Frei includes a lot of stuff claiming humans shouldn’t be here etc
Sometimes I wish they’d follow through
I wish The Guardian weren’t here. A huge and influential source of lies and misinformation would be gone.
The Guardian 45 to 50 years ago was a seriously good newspaper. But then the BBC was also a lot better 45 to 50 years ago.
The far left are playing a long game and incrementally, year on year, the centre ground is slipping leftward.
Just look at the Conservative party.
Center ground is certainly shifting Full Leftard
There is a certain, unbelievable arrogance – no, it’s so much more than that but I cannot find the words – about the Left who champion this NZC idiocy: that they think that what they believe in is so, so important that it doesn’t matter if they are dead before what they wish for society comes to pass.
There is a convention in the UK that no government can pass a law that constrains the next: there should be a law that stops contrarians having objectives that would outlive their sponsors. Why should my grandson have to live with the effects of the beliefs of long dead nut-jobs. Helicobacter anyone?
They have a collective Messiah complex; they share a belief that they are saving the world, that only they have the true vision that will save humanity/the world/whatever and that is the only reward they need – to know that they were right all along. That eating vegan food, recycling everything, cycling to work, wearing bamboo sandals and hemp clothing wasn’t a fringe delusion but it was the path to a golden future for all mankind and they were among the chosen few that saw it first. It’s a form of insanity; delusions possibly accompanied by some form of paranoia or persecution complex. Time was a person with a form of insanity would receive treatment, not research grants and articles in the MSM.
Komment macht Frei?
No, Ed.
How could commenting on the Guardian make you free?
It’s quite the reverse. Comment IS Free as long as you do not utter any heretical thoughts or ideas.
It’s a bit like one of those sensory deprivation tanks.
Been long cancelled there. They do not like Truth Telling!
No. They make you pay in the end, some way or somehow. They always do – nothing’s free anymore.
The trouble is that they believe other humans should not be here, not themselves.
They are good humans because they care and observe all of the virtue signaling rites. We, the others, are bad humans because we don’t care as much as they do. We have to go.
So, at some time or other most of us other sane people have invited them to go first, but they never do because, “I have to be here to care and make sure everyone else cares even if I have to force them to care.”
+1
It’s all about saying the right things and signalling virtue.
total climate meltdown cannot be stopped
“The crucial point, he argues, is that there is now no chance of us avoiding a perilous, all-pervasive climate breakdown.”
“Most other climate experts still maintain we have time left,”
Another tweet…
“Just in case anyone out there thinks I’M being alarmist. I suggest you read this.
If you are not yet terrified, you should be.”
“Headline writers have a lot to answer for – even in the Guardian.” LOL!
This guy is a total clown, how embarrassing.
Little does he know that he will be the first up against the wall.
The coming winter is going to be interesting. Telling people they must freeze to death to save the earth, isn’t going to be a fashionable look.
Yep, but they will be happy shivering.
We will be shivering because we won’t be able to afford to put the heating on.
The extended power cuts in UK last year gave us a taste of how to cope.
Forward to the 19thC !!
They will have nothing and be happy.
I’m waiting on the institution of creating Soylent Green to alleviate the struggles of the “transition”.
“Telling people they must freeze to death to save the earth … ” is not the entire story.
People need to be told/reminded that “They must freeze to death to save the earth from too much warming, (while others are comfortable, warm and give up nothing).”
“says expert”
How big is Mann’s ego?
How big? 4 AUs at a minimum.
I am thinking in this context AUs must be arsehole units, just guessing.
Excellent, Rod. Sounds like a good measure of hubris as well as ego.
We now have another handy-dandy SI unit to go with Manhattans, Empire State Buildings, Olympic Swimming Pools, etc.
👍 👍
“Approximate Uranus” as a rough estimate of size and density, as well as a location for where he keeps it!
And, according to Mikey, all we have to do is cut emissions in half by 2030 and net zero by 2050!
ITMA?
‘After you Claude – No, after you Cecil‘
No no you fools! Not that much dooming that it can’t ever be fixed with more taxeating and slushfunding.
Can grauniad readers stop exhaling CO2, right now!
There aren’t many of them so that wouldn’t make much difference.
Every little bit helps.
Mann’s grifting scheme breaks down if people don’t embrace the illusion of control. Same for Covid vaccine sales, etc. Can someone please sue Mann for fraud?
“…on the verge of breakthrough climate legislation that can limit planetary warming…”
What a nonsensical thing to say! Pass all the laws you want, and watch the atmosphere ignore you as the compressible working fluid of its own heat engine operation. It obeys laws we did not write.
Ha! There ya go, Dave.
Just pass a law that all warming will stop at 1.4 degrees, just short of the tipping point of 1.5 degrees. Problem solved. Handshakes all around. Let’s all go home.
It’s been brought up a few times here that Indiana tried to pass a law that Pi equals 3. It came close to passing.
Did a state legislature once pass a law saying pi equals 3? – The Straight Dope
New York Times motto
“All the leftist news fit to print”
UK Guardian motto:
“Is that true? Or did you read it in the Guardian?”
“climate scientist Michael Mann.”
Who the hell is that?
Or do you really mean Insane Climate Fraudster Michael Mann?
Either way, his degrees aren’t in climatology.
Mikey McFraudypants has a nice ring…
‘Fraudulently Using Climate Knowledge Mann’.
Not quite as good as FJB…but it’s the sentiment that counts.
lol, I see what you did there
I like it !
OK. So the Guardian comes out with an article talking about how it is too late and terrible consequences are in store for us from climate change.
Then Mikey Mann declares that the Guardian is not being helpful and that it is possible for humans to mitigate climate disaster.
Then the BBC comes out with an article declaring that scientists are not taking the threat of the extinction of humanity due to climate change seriously.
See a pattern here?
Yes that’s what I was alluding too with a schism amongst the doomsters and a turf war for the grants and slushfunding. Essentially the perpetual ‘very last chancers’ vs ‘doom management’.
Notice Mikey boy didn’t like the Guardian virtually saying the science is settled and we’re all doomed because that only leaves the field to the doom managers that are putting their hands out. You have to read the deplorables and which way the political wind is blowing if you want to stay on top and milk them. The very very very….very last chance to give up fossil fuels and change the climate was always going to wear thin.
Mann will need to be careful. He could be cancelled.
Superfluous as Putin showed so many they can’t survive here and now without fossil fuels and yet they’ve been hammered they’re doomed longer term with them. Which is the immediate problem for them? Duh!
Ipso facto where is the future with the taxeating and slushfunding? Ans: Climate doom management.
If you don’t know who at the table is the useful idiot , it could just be a certain Mann. Next up for martyrdom for the Cause.
“Don’t say it’s too late — we’ll miss out on the massive payout!!”
You are going to be cooked alive. If I thought that I would use drugs too.
How is the World’s Longest-Running Lawsuit going, Mickey?
It is going to trial!
https://www.steynonline.com/11508/youre-once-twice-three-times-a-loser
So it’s heating up?
Mann’s CAGW sets another record!
The linked page is copyrighted 2022, but the date at the top of the article is July 26 2021. Is this the most recent information?
Yeah, AFAIK; to get up-to-date info would require downloading the actual case filings from Pacer, at a cost-per-page.
A year later, still twiddling thumbs….
“Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.” Why does Michael Mann object to the Grauniad? If the CAGW fight is lost and “there’s nothing more we can do”, then there’s no further reason to give Michael Mann lots of money – we might just as well spend it on ourselves!
Eat, drink and burn coal, or this winter we freeze?
(Can’t have that!)
In 2019 main drug rehabilitation specialist Dr. Alex Wodak offered an evidence for why drug dependancy is hovering, when he testified to an Aussie state authorities ice inquiry that local weather despair is without doubt one of the components which leads younger folks to destroy their lives with arduous medication.
Was that doctor pushing for pharmaceuticals to alleviate the symptoms? That would follow the formulae that the medical profession has been following for the past few decades.
In 2019 I submitted an FOI request to the Met Office asking for all of the data and evidence they hold which forensically identifies and proves beyond reasonable doubt that the increase in atmospheric Co2 concentration for 1850 – 291ppmv – to 2022 – 420ppmv – has caused sufficient warming of the lower troposphere to negatively impact the climate to the detriment of the environment.
And if such warming has happened and the climate has been negatively influenced to the detriment of the environment kindly provide all the evidence that you hold which proves that the climate has been negatively influenced and the environment has suffered detrimentally as a result.
Furthermore if you can provide this evidence and prove beyond reasonable doubt that Co2 has caused sufficient detrimental warming then kindly supply all of the evidence that you hold which underpins and supports the narrative that Co2 is the primary cause of a change in climate.
I also asked for all of the historical weather data which specifically defines the changes in the intensity and extremes of weather caused as a result of the change in the atmospheric concentration of Co2 since 1850.
Then as a further question if you know for a fact that Co2 has changed temperature climate and weather detrimentally you must know how much the atmospheric concentration of Co2 needs to be reduced to a safe level to ensure the climate does not change. Prof Friedericke Otto and Emily Shuckburgh, Prof Belcher says we can manage the climate to stop change at a safe level – Emily Shuckburgh on Twitter: “RT @metoffice: Met Office Chief of Science and Technology, Professor Stephen Belcher, reflects on the UK breaching 40°C for the first time…” / Twitter – every day before the 40.3C at RAF Conningsby airport with acres of concrete and buildings reflecting sunlight both said that climate change was easy to stop but refrained from saying how and providing data calculations and evidence of exactly how much fossil fuels need to be curtailed, what time frame and offering no guarantee that if Co2 is 100% responsible for warming then as the LIA is only 1C away curtailing or reducing Co2 could based on the Co2 hypothesis send the climate back to the LIA, why not?
Last week I submitted another FOI request to the Met Office asking Prof Belcher how we manage climate to a safe level. The Met Office responded to my first FOI with a climate model result which I refuted as evidence. The Met Office then said I should contact the IPCC because they held the information I had asked for. I responded thus “the Met Office handle most of the climate modelling exercises for the IPCC at the UK taxpayers expense and therefore must know what the IPCC knows. The Met Office then said they would hold an investigation to make sure my FOI had been handled correctly. Some weeks later the Met Office said my FOI had been handled correctly end of story. Still no evidence.
I submitted a long FOI to the BBC asking exactly the same questions to which the BBC responded by quoting legislation which in effect allows the BBC to lie without ever having to face censure but no evidence.
Recently I submitted another FOI to the Committee for Climate Change asking for evidence that Co2…… and their response is “It is widely viewed as fact that the climate is changing, and the burning of fossil fuels is the primary cause. Our latest Progress Report to Parliament 2022 (linked to above) provides an overview of recent updates to the evidence base – particularly the International Panel on Climate Change Working Group 1 Report. Please see section 2. Global climate, emissions, and adaptation in Chapter 1: The global picture, from page 49 (see link in 1.)”. Widely viewed is not a good reason to justify spending between £6 and £7 trillion for the UK alone on Net Zero as though this is a silver bullet which is what Prof Belcher implies.
Every doomsday fantasist crowds out the light ignores observations and authors acres of hog wash but when asked for specific information evidence data to proof positive their fallacious cant and humbug they remain silent.
For example. On this date in 1955 when the atmospheric CO2 level was about 314 ppm.
August 2, 1955 | Real Climate Science
CA 110
SD 108, AZ 106, NE 105, TX 105, UT 105, KS 104, NV 104, NJ 104, PA 103, MO 102, VA 102, CO 101, DE 101, MT 101, NY 101, OK 101, ID 100, IA 100, MD 100, MN 100, WV 100, WI 100, WY 100
ND 99, IL 98, IN 98, MI 98, NM 98, NC 98, OH 98, TN 98, GA 97, OR 97, AR 95, FL 95, KY 95, SC 95, AL 94, MA 93, NH 93, RI 93, VT 93, LA 92, MS 92, CT 91, ME 91
And things would get generally hotter later in the month.
I appreciate your effort. The results are as expected. You will keep getting the runaround without spending millions in lawsuits.
Does the “97%” agree with Mann or the Guardian?
It’s now a fight over the claims of 97% of the pivotal 1% undecided to tip the balance to one side or the other among the radical faithful. Losing quietly is not an option as Trotsky would demonstrate.
” The Guardian is too Climate Alarmist even for Michael Mann ”
… a more aggressive variant of the same virus?…
Superbug
“I have been on the verge of being an angel all my life, but it’s never happened yet.” — Mark Twain
Again, is he referring to climate legislation being considered in China and India?
Mann may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even he can figure out that if it’s too late to do anything, most people will opt to stop spending so much money on the climate change industry.
He’s trying to tone down the paranoia in an effort to protect his own salary.
Lawsuits are expensive. He needs to keep the gravy train running.
Mann may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he’s sharper than most activists, green politicians and supporters that give money. Tell me of another scam that could keep going for nearly 50 years with absolutely no change and nothing whatsoever to show for the $Bn’s spent?
The Great Society in the USA.
It’s worse than that. It’s easy to document all the damage the Great Society has caused. Yet the only solution being offered is more of the same.
I stopped caring after the climate supposedly made me extinct over 20 years ago.
I know what you mean, John. I find it hard to get up every morning knowing that I’m dead.
But then… coffee time! and I’m OK for the rest of the day.
Michael “my extremism isn’t that over the top” Mann, grasping at semantic strawmen hoping to be granted just a smidge of credibility.
The gaslighting strategy of the Climate Alarmists has reached a new level of unbelievability when Mann says they have gone too far.
His concern is for the lost opportunity to draw down state funding for his pointless investigations into something that is as natural as nature gets.
The idea the Guardian/BBC push a story line that it is too late to alter the baked in destruction ahead means no one will bother to fund research.
The settled science of the BBC/Guardian has settled the debate. Why should we be asked to fund research into something that is, erm…’settled’
Poor Mickey, it must be very frustrating when your chief propaganda department don’t follow the rules of blackmail. The rules are, we are doomed, but you can save the world if you give us another few $billions to refine the science say the doom mongers..
When does next climate purge begin to clear out the less radical revolutionists?
Who knew that Happy Valley would become part of the climate gulag.
Why can’t wind farm lobbyists just make a legitimate business case….without subsidies. The same goes for the tree burner Drax.
“Keeping the climate alarm movement going appears to be a delicate balancing act between fear and despair”
—————-
Exactly. Mind you, for decades Mann et al have been pronouncing deadlines beyond which it will be “too late to save humanity”. But when those deadlines pass with no catastrophe they NEVER say it’s too late, just make up new deadlines and pretend the old ones never existed. I guess they figure there’s a limit to what the gullible sheeple will accept.
Climate scientists: We’ve done some new calculations, and it appears that Global Warming will arrive two days before the day after tomorrow!
Randy Marsh: Oh my God, that’s today!
h/t South Park
Why? We have to adapt to a changed and changing climate like humans have been doing for at least the past 150.000 years. Get over it.
Short of asteroid strikes and mega-volcanoes, life adapts and muddles through.
Slightly off topic, but relevant to the subject of society/government having gone completely bonkers.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/uk-police-british-army-veteran-arrested-anti-lgbtq-social-media-post-caused-anxiety-video
A man is arrested for sharing a post on social media, that combines the LGBTQ flag and the Nazi flag. According to the police, the man is being arrested because his post made someone anxious.
The saddest thing is that the police do not realize that they are actually proving the man’s point.
As Mark Steyn said recently, in Britain everything is policed except actual crime.
Yet again, wrong is heaped upon wrong..
Quote:”In 2019 leading drug rehabilitation specialist Dr. Alex Wodak provided an explanation for why drug addiction is soaring, when he testified to an Aussie state government ice inquiry that climate despair is one of the factors which leads young people to destroy their lives with hard drugs.
This Wodik character is a complete fraud – he hasn’t A Single Friggin Clue about on what he preaches. He is applying sticky plasters to people who have, damn nera cut their own throats. Then craics on that he’s An Expert. jeez
Y.
The Human Animal is NOT an intrinsically addictive or self-destructive thing.
It takes on such behavoiur in the face of 2 significant forces, forces which it tries despertaly to avoid at all costs.
When it cannot escape ‘conventionally’ – it resorts to chemical means of escape.
(There are other routes but many chemicals are cheap and readily available legally so why not)
Those triggers are:
If anybody in this hideous train-wreck recognises anything it is the guy first on the scene = one Michael Mann
Why?
Because he is the source of the (Climate) Stress – then myriad other stressors fall out of that, created by stressed individuals inside government bureaucracies trying to alleviate their own personal stress.
Many resort to Comfort Food and Booze – ain’t that a fact eh Boris?
I’ll say again: “The human animal cannot lie“, it is a very stressful thing to do.
Hence why M Mann is here immediatly on the scene – because he is attempting to defuse the stress within himself, brought on through decades of passing (hokey kokey stik) porkies.
wotta tangled web of wrongness we weave or what…….
(Haha – or Wong-ness as per that Jim Steele trainwreck just yesterday. There weren’t the words so I didn’t put any)
They have keep the money coming. If they admit it’s hopeless, why spend any money to prevent what cannot be prevented?
So, it has to be bad enough to be a crisis, but not so bad it can’t be fixed with huge sums of money and giving them a lot of power.
I truly wonder how many people believe this stuff.
Slightly OT, speaking of hopeless, here is a chart of the UK power grid showing solar and biomass (wood pellets) for the last five years.
Solar began with such enthusiasm but now is a backwater in the UK power grid.
They ran out of other people’s money.
Wood pellet burning though is still getting enough of other people’s money to expand.
mann is no climate scientist.
So effective activists have to be throttled so the right amount of fear is instilled but not so much they are drug addicted to the point of hospitalization or death. Who in good conscience would do that except a scoundrel.
The Guardian has amended their headline, and provided the following explanation :- The headline of this article was amended on 2 August 2022 to more accurately reflect the concern expressed by Bill McGuire. As the article made clear, he believes climate breakdown is inevitable but that a total cataclysm can still be stopped.
I fail to understand how something which is inevitable can be stopped. “Inevitable” literally means “cannot be avoided”.
Climate change can mean anything and everything now. Welcome to climate change diversity. All fear mongers, liars, propagandists, nut cases, and pseudoscientists are welcome.
They have a problem. If they over hype the danger people will feel there’s nothing they can do to solve the problem. If they don’t overhype it people won’t want to do anything about it. What they don’t seem to have taken on board is that if they get the balance just iright there’s still nothing they can do, because nothing’s going to happen on a large scale to do anything about. Hance the goal of a perfect environmental lifestyle cannot be force on the hot polloi under any scenario.