Mayor Heidi Harmon. Source Cal Coast News. Fair use, low resolution image to identify the subject.

EV Recharge Hell for Climate Activist Heidi Harmon

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

Share the pain of a deep green activist politician who desperately wants to attend a climate change rally, but misses out because of her useless electric vehicle.

SLO climate change activist Heidi Harmon’s electric car calamity

January 24, 2022

By KAREN VELIE

Former San Luis Obispo mayor and climate change activist Heidi Harmon attempted to “do the right thing,” and travel to a rally in San Francisco in an electric car. After multiple attempts to find a working charging station in San Jose, Harmon realized charging the car would take up to seven hours and there was no way she could make the rally.

Read more: https://calcoastnews.com/2022/01/slo-climate-change-activist-heidi-harmons-electric-car-calamity/

The video (h/t Cal Coast News):

I love this story, because it offers a microcosm of why green try to waste so much of your money.

“We need some transition support squads”.

If Harmon wasn’t such a deep green, it might have dawned on her that her experience is unequivocal evidence that EVs are useless.

But the green belief system does not seem to permit such thoughts.

Greens start from the assumption that their vision is inevitable. Then they try to work backwards, to figure out how much of your money they need to throw into the bottomless pit, to fund all the “transition support squads” and other useless green props they hope will help advance society towards their vision of a green nirvana.

Even if their green vision is an economic and engineering impossibility, they don’t hesitate to spend your money, because their belief system does not allow them to accept such negativity. So they just keep spending and spending, until someone cancels their ability to plunder your future financial security.

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Brad
January 25, 2022 10:07 am

Dumber than a rock!!! Yeah, call for a gas guzzling chopper to come save your “sorry” self.

Len Werner
Reply to  Brad
January 25, 2022 10:15 am

There be geologists on this site; one more insult to rocks and you’ll be in danger of getting stoned.

william Johnston
Reply to  Len Werner
January 25, 2022 10:42 am

“Stoned?” California? That figures.

Bryan A
Reply to  william Johnston
January 25, 2022 11:13 am

Simply incapable of proper prior planning. She needed to allow for multiple stops of 8 hour increments to get from San Luis Obispo to San Francisco in time to attend the rally.
She should have stopped and spent the day in King City, then stopped again and spent the night in Moragn Hill. Day two would take her to San Bruno for an 8 hour recharge then continue to San Francisco the night before the rally.
Is 2 days to get from San Luis Obispo to SFO really too much to ask?

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Bryan A
January 25, 2022 12:56 pm

“Harmon realized charging the car would take up to seven hours …” What did she think – there would be a fast charge station on every corner, and available?

And she was mayor of SLO? Says a lot about the residents of that community.

gbaikie
Reply to  Bryan A
January 25, 2022 1:00 pm

Most kittens do better planning.

Joao Martins
Reply to  Bryan A
January 25, 2022 1:20 pm

Proper planning is too much arithmetics for green brains…

Dave
Reply to  Joao Martins
January 27, 2022 4:50 am

Only 3 kinds of people! Those that count and those that can’t!

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Bryan A
January 25, 2022 2:12 pm

It’s only 232 miles via 101. Should be at most 2 charges. Extended range EV’s might make it on one. Unless I’ve missed something?

Last edited 3 months ago by D. J. Hawkins
Scissor
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 25, 2022 2:59 pm

The livery stable was out of horses.

Steven F
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 25, 2022 3:48 pm

Teslas with Extended range batteries can do it without a recharge. But if you don’t havea fully charged only or have the standard range model stop at a tesla charging station which will get you 80% charge in about 20 minutes.

RobR
Reply to  Steven F
January 26, 2022 5:28 am

Of course, your mention of Tesla fast charging station goes to the heart of the problem. There are actually 3 distinct types of fast chargers in the USA and they are not interchangeable.

A Nissan Leaf, or Chevy Volt can only slow charge at a Tesla fast charging station, and visa versa.

Each fast charging unit costs upwards of a 100K. Leaving construction costs, support structures, and land leasing aside; a station of 10 will cost a million bucks.

Who will blink first, or if ever in adopting a single standard for fast charging.

Problem two: If it takes 20X longer (I’m being generous) to fast charge than fill up; you would need 20X more charging units than petrol pumps.

Problem three: The current electrical grid is antiquated, under stability pressure from the vagaries of renewables, and incapable of handling a meaningful increase in load from increased adoption of EV’s.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  RobR
January 26, 2022 7:37 am

Problem four: too much fast charging degrades your battery.

Willem Post
Reply to  Dave Andrews
January 26, 2022 2:12 pm

Dave,

That is absolutely right.

Fast charging on the road should RARELY be used.

Normal charging should be from 15% full to 80% full, if you want your battery to have the least loss of range over time

Janice Moore
Reply to  RobR
January 26, 2022 1:05 pm

READ THIS, ALL EV FANBOYS AND GIRLS:

–> “… it takes 20X longer [] to fast charge than fill up…”

Reply to  RobR
January 26, 2022 2:18 pm

Problem 5 – Tesla chargers only support Tesla cars

Reply to  Steven F
January 26, 2022 2:16 pm

Yes quite. This is a non-story with a modern EV. And especially with the Tesla Supercharger network

Birdog357
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 25, 2022 4:42 pm

I could do that and make it half way back with my fullsize V8 powered pickup before I needed fuel….

Bryan A
Reply to  Birdog357
January 25, 2022 10:31 pm

And refuel in less than 10 minutes

MarkW
Reply to  Birdog357
January 26, 2022 7:13 am

My little Fiat gets almost 50 mpg on the highway and with my 10.5 gallon fuel tank, I could make the round trip and still have enough gas for a day two of commuting before having to visit the pumps.

TonyG
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2022 10:33 am

My little Fiat gets almost 50 mpg on the highway

My Silverado gets 15 mpg and I’m in about the same position.

MarkW
Reply to  TonyG
January 26, 2022 12:42 pm

If my Fiat had a tank the size of your Silverado’s, there wouldn’t be any room for me in it.

TonyG
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2022 2:02 pm

My Silverado’s tank is probably the size of your Fiat 🙂

Drake
Reply to  Birdog357
January 26, 2022 11:22 am

Round trip no problem in my 1 ton diesel. At 80 mph.

2hotel9
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 25, 2022 4:43 pm

My Grand Caravan would easily do that on 3/4 of a tank, plus carry a bunch of other people, food, beer, canopy and chairs and assorted other items. Go figure, a greentard can’t figure out how to actually do, well, anything.

TonyS
Reply to  2hotel9
January 25, 2022 9:34 pm

And a under half a tank in my Skoda Fabia Diesel. About three and a half gallons for that run.

Gerry, England
Reply to  2hotel9
January 26, 2022 5:28 am

And have the aircon/heating on, be able to drive in the dark and the rain, be able to crank out some Ted Nugent on the sound system.

Bryan A
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 25, 2022 10:29 pm

Average driving range is approx 3-4 miles per kWH of charge so a 25kWH charge will give you about 100 miles. Realistically charging at 240V will give you about 25kWH charge in 8 hours. If she was looking at 7-8 hours to recharge she wasn’t parked at a rapid charger and was likely pumping in electricity at 240V.
I wouldn’t drive farther than 80% of capacity so was calculating recharging at +/- 70-80 mile intervals to allow for driving around to locate an unoccupied charging station

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Bryan A
January 26, 2022 1:18 pm

Thank you for clarifying your assumptions. Now I understand.

max
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 26, 2022 9:29 am

Not if you don’t charge it a day ahead.

Janice Moore
Reply to  max
January 26, 2022 1:19 pm

7:45AM

Supervisor: Hey! Mignon! Inkblot just called in sick. We need you to take his place at that conference today.

Mignon: Uh, oh.

S: What do you MEAN, “uh, oh??!!!”

M: Well, when does it start?

S: At 9AM. You’ll miss the opening remarks, but, that’s okay.

M: Is it okay if I don’t get there until around 11:30?

S: No! As if. What a DUMB question. Now, get going!!

M: Sorry. I can’t.

S: #@!!#%%!&!

M: BECAUSE MY CAR TAKES AT LEAST 1 HOUR TO HAVE ENOUGH BATTERY TO MAKE IT THERE. 😖

S: Well, that’s okay, M. You take today off and charge your car. And the next day. And the next day. And, hey, how about forever? I’ll have Tony go. His pick-up takes less than 10 minutes to fill up.

Last edited 3 months ago by Janice Moore
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 26, 2022 4:08 pm

One interesting consequence of E vehicle use with their range problem is that it becomes harder to conceal if your actual route – and activities en route – are not the same as those claimed for the journey.

Hivemind
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 27, 2022 3:13 am

I thought the average electric car could do more than 200 miles on a single charge.

Gerry, England
Reply to  Hivemind
January 27, 2022 5:05 am

There is a standard test for range the same as there is for determining fuel consumption. However, these are comparators so you can compare and are not indicative of real life. In the nasty big wide world reality means that more of the average battery cars can only manage barely 100 miles. Which as James May of Top Gear pointed out was about the same as the first battery cars of the 1890s which was why they did not catch on.

Dennis
Reply to  Bryan A
January 25, 2022 5:47 pm

Consider the area of land needed for a large fuel service station and then the area of land needed for an average drive-in movie theatre.

Now consider peak traffic periods and holiday periods and if the fleet of vehicles was EV, assuming that the electricity grid could cope with that high demand, to accommodate EV recharging the drive-in movie land area would be needed many times over around a nation.

Then consider so called renewable energy installations, wind turbines and solar commercial, and the vast areas of land they require, and how much more would be needed if the transition to renewable energy was viable. Suitable locations of course.

Mission impossible?

mal
Reply to  Dennis
January 25, 2022 7:42 pm

Mission insanity.

The Saint
Reply to  mal
January 27, 2022 6:03 pm

So why didn’t the SLO mayor just take that multi-billion dollar train instead of driving?

Philip
Reply to  Len Werner
January 25, 2022 10:47 am

He may be stoned already, who knows

Bryan A
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 11:17 am

She sure knows WHINE

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 11:31 am

wow, a stoner geologist!

Reply to  Len Werner
January 25, 2022 1:02 pm

one more insult to rocks”

What insult to rocks?
Brad just compared rocks to an alleged sentient being. Well, phrased the other way round, but it makes rocks sound brilliant compared to green activists.

Taphonomic
Reply to  Len Werner
January 26, 2022 12:31 pm

But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned

R. Zimmerman

Derg
Reply to  Brad
January 25, 2022 10:32 am

Could be married to Simon or Griff?

Alan Robertson
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 11:14 am

One can only hope that those laughing at this chapter of “EV Hell” won’t be condemned to such a fate by karma and such.

Last edited 4 months ago by Alan Robertson
BobM
Reply to  Alan Robertson
January 25, 2022 12:20 pm

That said, karma and such in the same situation is calling AAA, getting 5 gallons of gas, and being on your way.

Alan Robertson
Reply to  BobM
January 25, 2022 3:48 pm

Good answer, but the way karma bites, the unlucky one would run out of gas in an area with zero phone reception. Then, you’d accept a ride from the first car to stop after an hour, which would be a woman in a car like that. On your way to the nearest gas station, her electric ride flames out (still in the phone dead zone) and you would have not only had to endure her vapid and non- stop prattling about the evil fossil fuel cars for the past ten miles, but now, she’s much more animated and blaming you and your extra weight, for causing her issues.
And there will be many issues…
Maybe you can run the first mile into town and gain some distance on your tormentor.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  BobM
January 26, 2022 3:58 am

If you run out of gas then you’re an idiot. Especially on a 232 mile trip.

MarkW
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
January 26, 2022 7:17 am

The closest I’ve come to running out, I was driving somewhere in east Texas and I was planning on filling up at the next exit. When I got there the offramp was closed and the next exit was 50 miles down the road. I ended up putting over 10.5 gallons into a 10 gallon tank when I finally got to a station

Last edited 3 months ago by MarkW
Graemethecat
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 11:14 am

If so, they deserve one another!

Bryan A
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 11:14 am

I thought Simon and Griff were already married to each other. Has Plural Marriage been legalized?

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Brad
January 25, 2022 11:09 am

Back in the day, federal workers did field work by helicopter to get around Jimmy Carter’s fuel ban, since the ban was not on jet fuel.

Slowroll
Reply to  Brad
January 25, 2022 11:16 am

Rather than realizing that maybe EVs are not quite practical, she’ll be clamoring for the taxpayers to build charging stations on every street corner, without regard to where the electricity will come from.

Ron Long
Reply to  Slowroll
January 25, 2022 11:53 am

The Brandon “Build Back Better” stalled program includes building many free charging stations, without regard to the origin of the electricity. Free in this case means free to Green Fruit-Loops, because the taxpayers are going to get hosed, and not much of the electricity will be Zero Carbon..

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  Slowroll
January 25, 2022 12:21 pm

Behind said charging stations, enclosed, and out of sight, will be humongous diesel-operated generators belching train loads of CO2 and other things which are actual pollutants. All so people can do their greenie virtue signalling.

Derg
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
January 25, 2022 12:48 pm

Hahaha

Mr.
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 1:23 pm

You think he’s joking?
It’s already been tried.

Eugene S. Conlin
Reply to  Mr.
January 29, 2022 5:13 am

comment image

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  Slowroll
January 25, 2022 12:58 pm

California has already started that – but at the rate-payer’s expense. 7,000 charging station are mandated in Southern California.

Eugene S. Conlin
Reply to  Retired_Engineer_Jim
January 29, 2022 5:15 am

sure has

Diesel EV charger.jpg
Reply to  Slowroll
January 25, 2022 1:10 pm

she’ll be clamoring for the taxpayers to build charging stations on every street corner”

Where?

Fat lot of good it’ll do as she tries to install them on every street corner in SLO all the way out to San Francisco.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Slowroll
January 25, 2022 6:05 pm

I’m curious about her transition support squads. Will we get to march in odd uniforms? Is goose-stepping an option?

bonbon
January 25, 2022 10:07 am

Hey wait! Those San Jose EV golf cars are electric! They can do even 19 holes!

https://images.cloudofgoods.com/items/146/20210316054613/item-2-750w.webp

Last edited 4 months ago by bonbon
bonbon
Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 10:14 am

for example :

item-2-750w.jpg
bonbon
Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 10:23 am

This would do better job :

golf.jpg
MarkW
Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 11:42 am

Not on a golf course though.

Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 2:20 pm
John Dawson
January 25, 2022 10:07 am

What model was the car? I bet it wasn’t Tesla who had the foresight to establish a decent charging network from the outset.

David Anderson
Reply to  John Dawson
January 25, 2022 11:10 am

You mean there is no standard charging infrastructure?

mark from the midwest
Reply to  David Anderson
January 25, 2022 12:01 pm

You are correct, they are becoming more compatible, but it might take a while. My girlfriend has a Tesla and begged me to have a charging station at my house. I’ve got a second 220 service for my shop, so it wasn’t a big deal. But that’s the only value I’ve seen from EV’s, they got my girlfriend to beg.

Bryan A
Reply to  mark from the midwest
January 26, 2022 5:30 pm

I thought you were going to say “Now she really gets charged up about coming over”

Last edited 3 months ago by Bryan A
Mr.
Reply to  David Anderson
January 25, 2022 1:27 pm

Nope.
In the same way that printer manufacturers make their money out of refill cartridges rather than the actual printer, Tesla sees selling time & watts from proprietary charging stations as the long term main payoff.

Jeff Labute
Reply to  David Anderson
January 25, 2022 1:34 pm

Charging IMO, is one of the biggest debacles. GM will be coming out with slightly new LG Chem battery packs that’ll charge faster on their hummer and pickup. So the batteries will be 200kWh and can charge with a 350kW DC fast charger. Needless to say, you probably won’t be charging it [fast] at home. Do we add more infrastructure? Do we replace all the existing chargers again?

Next step, Al-Ion batteries may come soon which developers tell us can charge 60x faster than Li-Ion. So now we will need MW chargers. Chargers are literally obsoleted the moment they are installed. So do we add new infrastructure? Or replace all the existing chargers again?

How often will we have to replace all this immature tech, and at what cost?

Next step, decades down the road when everyone supposedly has an EV. All these 100s of millions of chargers (literally) will have a failure rate requiring millions to be replaced every year. Another grand waste of human productivity and energy.

Drake
Reply to  Jeff Labute
January 26, 2022 11:32 am

Yes. Everything to do with “renewable energy” and “battery cars/busses, etc.” are a NET loss of production that could benefit the entirety of mankind.

This waste of resources is costing the global society houses, reliable energy production and infrastructure, roads, bridges, supply chain build out, etc., etc.

Redge
Reply to  John Dawson
January 25, 2022 11:40 am

Surely the charging network is the same for all EV’s, it’s the adaptors that are different

(Judging by the wing mirror, it’s a Chrysler Volt)

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Redge
January 26, 2022 4:03 am

You mean Chevy Volt?

Redge
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
January 26, 2022 4:39 am

opps, yep

serves me right for trying to show off doesn’t it!

Gordon A. Dressler
Reply to  John Dawson
January 25, 2022 11:49 am

Speaking of which . . . whatever happened to Elon Musk’s promise “comment” that ALL of his Supercharging stations (for exclusive use by Tesla owners) were going to be powered by now using only solar PV electricity?

Sic transit gloria.

mark from the midwest
Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
January 25, 2022 12:03 pm

We’ve had 2 clear days in January, so good luck with that, (and there are more Tesla’s here all the time).

Philip
January 25, 2022 10:08 am

A long time ago, the UK looked at the possibility of electric cars as a general replacement for ICE cars. One of their conclusions was that for it to be successful a requirement would be a standardized, quick exchange battery system. All cars having the same batteries, and the same quick connect/mounting systems.

Battery is low? Pull into a battery station where your battery is removed and replaced with a fully charged one. In about the same time as filling your gas tank.

No need for home chargers, fast chargers, re-building the entire electrical distribution system etc.

If governments are serious about EVs, this is a route they will have to go down.

Last edited 4 months ago by Philip
tommyboy
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 10:28 am

A 75kw Tesla battery weighs almost 1200 lbs. I don’t think swapping one out would be a ten minute job.

Derg
Reply to  tommyboy
January 25, 2022 10:33 am

Forklift 😉

tommyboy
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 10:40 am

Electric forklift! I operated one almost fifty years ago.

bonbon
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 10:41 am

Do NOT try that at home. Tesla’s are no-go’s – not just the ECM’s but the stored energy….

THOMAS ENGLERT
Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 11:05 am

Forlift batteries weigh 3000+ lbs and last for eight hours in my experience. Lead is heavy.

DonK31
Reply to  THOMAS ENGLERT
January 25, 2022 12:47 pm

It’s unfair to compare forklifts to EVs. The electric forklifts that I used had 5 tons of lead weights at the rear end so that the forks could lift 2 tons at the front end and not tip over.

In general I agree that batteries are useless for long hauls or vacations, but they do have utility for 2 mile hauls to the grocery stores, so do legs.

Dean
Reply to  THOMAS ENGLERT
January 25, 2022 5:47 pm

I’m happy that forklifts have a lot of ballast. It is central to them being fit for purpose in undertaking their primary design goal.

EVs though………

Reply to  Derg
January 25, 2022 1:16 pm

I’ve seen a lot of forklift prong holes in a lot of places.
I doubt insurers would cheaply insure those forklift drivers against damages to vehicles and their occupants.

MarkW
Reply to  tommyboy
January 25, 2022 12:08 pm

Think about a 12 pump station.
Let’s also take them at their word that the batteries can actually be changed in 10 minutes. That’s 6 batteries per hour at each changing position.

If we assume the station is going to use fast charge (and destroy the batteries that much faster), then they are going to be changing 3 batteries in that 30 minutes times 12 positions. That means the station is going to pull enough electricity to be continuously charging 36 batteries in fast charge mode.

According to this site (https://electrek.co/2021/11/03/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla/) fast charging a Tesla takes 250kW, though there are plans to increase this to 300kW.

250kW x 36 = 9MW. That’s more than an entire sub-division of standard sized homes. Each charging station will need a dedicated sub-station with sizeable wires connecting it to the grid backbone.
Beyond that, can you imagine how hot that battery is going to get with 250kW being pumped into it? Remember that LiIon batteries can’t be charged if they get above 60C. In addition to the 9MW being consumed for charging, you are going to need powerful active cooling in order to keep those batteries from melting down. Think of a sizeable cooling tower next to every station.

Charging slower decreases the amount of power that each battery needs, but it increases the total number of batteries that have to be charged at any one time. It’s pretty much a linear relationship. Charging at half the rate, means the station will have to be able to charge twice as many batteries at the same time. Net result is that the total energy needed for charging does not change.

And that’s before we get into the difficulties of building equipment that can quickly AND ACCURATELY maneuver a 1200 pound battery without damaging it. (If the battery gets damaged, the chances of it self igniting in the near future go way up.)

Ebor
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 12:18 pm

Where’s Griff when u need him? I’d like him to weigh in on the feasibility here…Griff?

MarkW
Reply to  Ebor
January 25, 2022 12:49 pm

griff don’t do math, he just regurgitates press releases and whatever was printed in the Guardian recently.

Ian Johnson
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 3:58 pm

also the BBC.

Retired_Engineer_Jim
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 1:02 pm

And then we can take pictures of the “CO2” coming out the top of the cooling tower?

Mr.
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 1:32 pm

Are you trying to say that golf carts aren’t scalable to meet all the personal transportation needs of modern society?

Who knew ?

tygrus
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 4:28 pm

As everyone else says, A big reminder to plan ahead & plan to NOT charge above 80% SOC wastes time. Just get to the next charge point when <25% SOC & keep topping upto 80% SOC.

9MW is the transformer capacity for about 1000 to 1200 homes (eg. 11x 1000kVA, 800kW@0.8PF).
Most fast charging don’t operate at full rate below 10% SOC & tapper (reduce) as they approach 80% SOC, then last 5% is more like a trickle.
Then you have the drive in / connect / disconnect / drive out non-charging time so the average is less than the peak.
You still have conversion losses & other overheads.
The faster the charging rate the greater the losses for supply & in the battery.
Capacity of charging stations/locations can be designed for peak but many hours of day they will be under-utilised. Having excess capacity wastes money vs having people occasionally queue for upto 10mins. If charging stations become cheaper to build (or higher utilisation) then more will be built.

The green brigade always want someone else to pay for the infrastructure, technology transitions & virtue signalling rewards. It will probably be better in the future but it’s currently uneconomical to roll these out faster than we are in many places. As always, YMMV.

Last edited 3 months ago by tygrus
Bob Hunter
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 7:42 pm

According to Car & Driver Magazine, it cost more to “refuel” their Tesla than a comparable ICE. 55% of the time the Tesla was charged at home/at night and 45% at a super charger.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2022 4:10 am

A removable 1200 pound battery would require some heavy duty hardware to hold it in place on the vehicle. It wouldn’t just “snap in” like your phone battery. That would require heavy equipment at the battery swapout site, with a full time maintenance staff. Each of those recharging stations would be like a small factory.

MarkW
Reply to  Trying to Play Nice
January 26, 2022 7:22 am

Given the safety record of these lithium batteries, I’m wondering if the passengers will be required to exit the vehicle before swapping.
I’m also wondering how swapping mechanism is going to handle the reaction of the car’s suspension once that 1200 pound weight is removed from the vehicle.

TonyG
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2022 11:45 am

There you go with that math stuff again

Rhee
Reply to  tommyboy
January 25, 2022 12:19 pm

Back in 2013, Elon demonstrated such a system concept here in Los Angeles – specifically at an event in Woodland Hills, an affluent suburb that is the demographic he targets. It was a splashy event where Elon crowed endlessly that his automated battery swap station could beat a full fill-up of a gasoline car. Indeed his demo did succeed in swapping the battery in just about 2 minutes, while a car was being refueled simultaneously at a nearby gas station that took about 4 minutes. Some gas station owners later chirped that his guy probably set the gas nozzle at the lowest volume to take longer to fill.
At any rate, it appeared he was dedicated to building a network of swap stations to rapidly advance acceptance of Tesla EVs. A few years later, Tesla quietly buried the project because it would cost too much to operate profitably.

MarkW
Reply to  Rhee
January 25, 2022 12:51 pm

Not to mention the car will probably go at least twice as far on that tank of gas than the EV will on it’s “fully” charged battery.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  Rhee
January 25, 2022 1:10 pm

Tesla only built the one battery swap station and it never opened for business. They went to using higher capacity batteries and eliminated the smaller capacity ones from the options.

Chattanooga, TN has been operating electric shuttle buses since the 1990’s. They started with lead-acid and had a battery swap station at the old railroad station. When the next generation buses were put into service with Ni-MH batteries they no longer swapped them out. A bus could almost run a full day’s shift on one charge and they’d charge quick enough that a short top up would get them through the day. A few years ago they had almost all of them replaced with ones using Lithium-Ion batteries with enough capacity to go all day. Should by now be all Li-Ion.

The only public funding the shuttle buses received was a Federal startup grant in the 1990’s. Since then it’s all been funded by donation boxes on the buses, at the two stations, and a cut of the downtown parking fees. Seems like a system that would work for many similarly sized metro areas that could use a bunch of buses circulating around their main downtown shopping area and stopping at many of the hotels.

Mr.
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 25, 2022 1:36 pm

Isn’t the issue that size of vehicle (ie car vs bus, or train or ship etc etc) dictates how big a battery it can accommodate?

MarkW
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 25, 2022 2:01 pm

If Chattanooga’s busses don’t rely on subsidies from the city, then they are the only bus system in the country that doesn’t.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  MarkW
January 26, 2022 4:17 am

You missed the part that they are subsized by part of the downtown parking fees.

tygrus
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 25, 2022 4:41 pm

Old info, old costings
https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/chatt_cs.pdf

https://noogatoday.6amcity.com/cartas-electric-shuttle-celebrates-20th-year-in-operation/

Recent addition of wireless charging
https://www.sustainable-bus.com/components/momentum-dynamics-byd-buses-carta-tennesse-chattanooga-electric-bus/

Check out the more recent costings..
https://energynews.us/2019/07/17/chattanooga-looks-to-extend-electric-bus-range-with-wireless-charging/

The Chattanooga busses don’t travel as far as some bus routes in other cities. Climate & the time of year can also affect the battery requirements. I heard of a city adding diesel fueled heaters to extend battery range of EV busses.

Last edited 3 months ago by tygrus
Richard K Mahler
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 26, 2022 6:42 am

Wait a minute, do you really mean donation boxes? Or do you mean “donation” boxes? The city is asking for money like the Salvation Army?

leowaj
Reply to  Rhee
January 25, 2022 3:36 pm

Rhee, when I heard about the swap station idea way back in 2013, it gave me pause to ask, “Hey, if Musk can find a way to put battery swap stations at every corner, like a gas station, there might be substance to the claim that EVs will replace ICE vehicles in the near future.”

Lrp
Reply to  Rhee
January 25, 2022 3:56 pm

He’s brilliant at passing all of his technology costs on taxpayers.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Rhee
January 26, 2022 4:15 am

Tesla actually moved the production battery installation equipment from their plant to the location of the demo. They used a brand new Tesla on production machinery and everything went well. Imagine bringing a Tesla in with snow and ice accumulation on the bottom of the vehicle on a day when it’s -15F. See how well the process works then.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  tommyboy
January 25, 2022 1:00 pm

Tesla built ONE Model S battery swapping station circa 2012 but never opened it for business. They moved to higher capacity batteries.

Did you notice the Tesla model names in the order they were introduced spell S3XY ?

Steven F
Reply to  tommyboy
January 25, 2022 3:57 pm

The original model S Tesla had a battery designed to be swapped. And they did test it in the field The robot did the swap and 1 minute. Another company was doing the same thing. Both concluded that battery swapping wasn’t financially viable. DC fast chargers however were and test has installed a lot of them.

Dennis
Reply to  tommyboy
January 25, 2022 5:12 pm

Don’t drop or bump the battery pack, exothermic reaction and fire hazard.

Marty
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 10:50 am

A new battery is expensive and batteries lose their ability to hold a charge as they get older. A six year old battery is worth less than a new battery and it won’t hold a charge as well as a new battery.

When you buy a new car your car comes equipped with a new battery which is at the peak of its performance and which is at the peak of its monetary value. Exchange your battery at the local exchange station and who knows how old your replacement battery would be.

Who is going to pull into a battery exchange station to replace their new battery with an older battery? The result would be that the only people using the battery exchange stations would be people who already have older than average batteries in their cars or people who are really stupid.

Dean
Reply to  Marty
January 25, 2022 6:18 pm

For swap out systems its highly unlikely you would be paying for the full price of a new battery when you purchase the car? Something like a subscription model or mileage based payment system.

The large change in vehicle performance depending on the age of the battery you swap into would be a major issue in any sort of trip planning for an EV.

Battery swap stations would also need to be spaced so as to accommodate the lowest performing battery, another massive capital investment needed to make renewable based energy systems fit the real world from the cosy fantasy of averages.

HotScot
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 11:09 am

How many batteries would a service station on the M25 have to store?

Then how many batteries would every ‘fuelling’ station around the country have to store.

Multiply that up across countries, then continents and there isn’t enough rare earth materials on the planet to have that lot sitting idle, just charging up 24/7.

Then there’s the fire risk.

Last edited 4 months ago by HotScot
Patrick B
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 11:24 am

Let’s see, the battery packs are thousands of dollars. I buy a car and pay for a new one. It has a certain life and may have a longer life if I charge it and use it correctly. And then I’m supposed to swap it out for a battery that some idiot overcharged, has used up etc. etc.

Only socialists like the Brits would think that’s a reasonable idea.

michael hart
Reply to  Patrick B
January 25, 2022 11:34 am

Take it easy mate, we’re discussing crazy Californians here.

Philip
Reply to  Patrick B
January 25, 2022 4:21 pm

You have a 10 year old car, and you get a 2 month old battery at the next exchange. Swings and roundabouts.

But the proposal wasn’t that simplistic. Batteries would carry information on how many cycles it had served, what it’s capacity currently is, etc. At specified trigger points it is withdrawn from service and re-built. You pay for this in your exchange fees – in the same way that you pay for extraction of crude oil, refining, distribution and overhead of running the gas station when you buy gas. Instead of a $20k bill every ten years or so, you essentially pay for that spread over those 10 years.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Philip
January 26, 2022 4:21 am

Actually that is a great idea. That would show the EV fanatics how expensive their vehicles really are.

Richard K Mahler
Reply to  Philip
January 26, 2022 6:49 am

But from where would the power to recharge come?

John the Econ
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 11:27 am

Although I like the idea of standardizing chargers, there’s a major problem with the battery swap idea. The most expensive single component of an EV is the battery, costing literally tens-of-thousands of dollars. And it’s a depreciating asset. How long it will last is determined by how it gets treated throughout its lifetime. For example, is it typically “slow charged” on a level 1 or level 2 charger or more frequently “supercharged” on a level 3 charger? EV batteries don’t enjoy level 3 all that much, and that will reduce its operational life.

This is also why the “let’s use parked EVs and their batteries to back up the renewable grid shortfall” scheme is a loser for EV owners.

Would you really want to swap the brand new battery in your EV with one that might be years older with hundreds or thousands of charge/discharge cycles and has less than 80% of the capacity of your new one? Would people who have older, worn out batteries use the battery swap as an opportunity to replace their now used up ton of toxic waste for your fresh, new battery?

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 11:38 am

how difficult would it be to have a gauge on the battery indicating age and charging history? those with more wear would be cheaper? just fantasizing- or, just some direct measure of the current performance level?

Mike McMillan
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 25, 2022 1:12 pm

I had this all worked out for my unpublished blockbuster 4-volume science fiction trilogy.

My silvide batteries were the size of 6-gallon jerry cans. Each battery has two gauges, state of charge and percent life remaining. You swap batteries, then have two costs. Replacements are always 100% charged, so if yours had 20% left, you have a juice cost of 80%. The tare cost is for the difference in life remaining between the batteries, and can be either a cost or a credit.

John the Econ
Reply to  Mike McMillan
January 25, 2022 2:36 pm

The cost of the energy in the battery is inconsequential (literally pennies) compared to the depreciation of the battery itself.

Mike McMillan
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 4:21 pm

Many planets were short on petro fuels, so electricity was the only practical option.

The electricity is actually too cheap to meter, seeing as how it’s pulled from the ether using field engines. Field engines, though, are a bit too big to put in a car, so we use batteries.

The silvide battery was far superior to the ion batteries it replaced, greater capacity, longer life, less expensive, and wouldn’t catch fire or explode. No drawbacks, so ion batteries disappeared completely.

The point of the post was that there are workarounds for most problems, maybe not all, and maybe not on this planet. The couple negative tags were probably from unvaxed buggy whip holdouts.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Mike McMillan
January 26, 2022 4:23 am

Or engineers with real world experience.

MarkW
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 12:12 pm

From what I have read, fast charging takes 250kW to fast charge a Tesla battery.
I don’t have enough information to calculate how hot 250kW would make a Tesla sized battery, but it’s enough to require active cooling to keep it from melting.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 1:11 pm

Teslas have liquid cooling for their batteries.

Dennis
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 25, 2022 5:14 pm

Do you know why?

The danger of thermal runaway as heat increases, massive fire risk.

MarkW
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 26, 2022 7:26 am

Which dramatically increases the cost of the battery, the weight of the battery and the energy to run that cooling system lowers the efficiency of the battery.

Richard Page
Reply to  John the Econ
January 26, 2022 1:37 am

It gets far worse when you realise that most EV’s simply don’t have batteries designed to be swapped out – they are usually installed under the floor throughout the main cabin of the car – if you want to take them out you need to do some extensive work to the car itself; not a simple 5 min job.

John the Econ
Reply to  Richard Page
January 26, 2022 11:24 am

Naturally, the vehicles would have to be designed to accommodate the standardized battery pack from the beginning, which would impose substantial limitations upon engineers and the forms that vehicles using these could take. And a one-size-fits-all approach would not be acceptable. (A Tesla-sized battery in a Fiat 500-sized vehicle would be too big, but a Fiat 500-sized battery would be woefully inadequate for anything bigger) But having multiple battery pack sizes would eliminate the efficiencies of standardization. This would substantially reduce enthusiasm for adopting this approach outside of certain fleet-wide applications.

MarkW
Reply to  John the Econ
January 26, 2022 12:47 pm

I don’t remember the model or brand, but I’ve seen cars around that make my little Fiat-500 seem spacious. They have a front seat for two, and no back seat, just a tiny little trunk and the two front seat passengers are practically touching shoulders.

MarkW
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 11:44 am

One impossible idea to make another impossible idea work.
It’s one thing for politicians to decide that we need to be able to swap batteries.
It’s another thing altogether for engineers to make such an idea work.
The many problems with the idea of battery swapping stations have been repeated so many times that there is no need to go over them yet again.

Suffice it to say that the engineering challenges are impossible to solve at a price that the average consumer will be able to afford.

John the Econ
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 2:43 pm

Roughly a decade ago there was a company in Europe that tried to make this work. It was a station that resembled a typical quick-lube place, where the EV was driven into a garage where a lift would remove a standardized battery from the bottom of the car and swap with a charged one. The advantage was that it took roughly the same time to do this as a typical gas stop. The disadvantages were many, including the notion that all cars would have to utilize a standard battery and the depreciation issue I mentioned above. The company folded in short order.

mark from the midwest
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 12:11 pm

Actually on a Tesla station it doesn’t take very long to recharge. We have Tesla chargers at Meijers, a large grocery-variety store in the midwest. You hook up your car, go shop and you’re good. At my girlfriend’s condo it takes about 4 1/2 hours for a full charge, at my house, (cheapest charger I could find at 220v), it takes about 6 hours. On a 110v charger it takes about a month.

MarkW
Reply to  mark from the midwest
January 25, 2022 12:54 pm

The problem with those fast chargers is that they heat the battery so much that it dramatically reduces battery life.

Dennis
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 5:16 pm

One of the very good reasons regular recharging to 80% of capacity only is recommended.

And loss of range which is theoretical range as quoted in sales brochures etc.

mal
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 7:51 pm

Here In Arizona fast charges must not be fast, 40C is our average summertime temperature. I would guess a lot of charge will be spent on cooling the battery.

MarkW
Reply to  mal
January 26, 2022 7:28 am

From the data sheets that I’ve been reading, the chargers shut down completely if the battery temperature reaches 60C. Even with active cooling, I don’t see how you could fast charge when ambient reaches those kinds of temperatures.

PS: Batteries don’t care if it’s a dry heat.

Last edited 3 months ago by MarkW
Dean
Reply to  mark from the midwest
January 25, 2022 6:22 pm

As long as there as many chargers as there are shoppers.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  mark from the midwest
January 26, 2022 4:30 am

The one Meijers close to me that has the supercharger is quite interesting. There are 6 or 8 bays and I’ve never seen more than one Tesla charging. Convenience for shopping did not seem to enter into planning. It would be a long walk through the parking lot (the farthest point from the store) with the wind whipping off the freeway. On a cold winter day that would be a nasty walk.

Dennis
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 5:11 pm

And how would the condition of a battery pack be costed at each changeover, and how could the next user know how the pack has been treated over time in past installations?

That factor could be important when trade-in time arrived.

Dean
Reply to  Dennis
January 25, 2022 6:25 pm

We have overcome these sorts of pricing difficulties for many billions of products out there.

I’m sure the market “organism” will come up with a series of models which progressively reduce the cost in order to attract customers. It is absolutely fantastic at solving these sorts of problems.

Richard K Mahler
Reply to  Dean
January 26, 2022 7:01 am

You’re sure, huh? Well, the rest of us better just get with it. Right, master?

MarkW
Reply to  Dean
January 26, 2022 7:30 am

In other words, you are counting on miracles to make your plan work.

Richard K Mahler
Reply to  MarkW
January 27, 2022 1:44 pm

That’s much better said. Thank you.

angech
Reply to  Philip
January 25, 2022 6:27 pm

Only practical way. Batteries charge while waiting for changeover.
Click, release Click replace weight not an issue once designed.
Only will need a lot more batteries than trucks and cars

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  angech
January 26, 2022 4:37 am

It’s 1200 pounds, not a phone battery. There are some safety issues involved with the installation. If that battery pack is not installed absolutely correctly what will happen in an accident? How do you ensure the installation on an old vehicle with corrosion and/or with ice or water from weather? These are just engineering considerations but could be very expensive engineering considerations. Most great ideas that never make it are because the engineering makes it too expensive to work in the real world.

MarkW
Reply to  angech
January 26, 2022 7:31 am

Others above have detailed all the problems that you gloss over.
Care to actually address a mechanism for solving all the problems listed?

Richard K Mahler
Reply to  angech
January 27, 2022 2:05 pm

Ok, angech. There are many millions of trucks and cars on the road in the U.S. Rod Serling Voice: “Imagine all ICE vehicles have been replaced by all-electric cars, trains, planes, ships . . . ”
You, yourself say a lot more batteries than vehicles will be needed. I suggest that number will have to be multiples of the vehicles to be serviced. The electric grid of today won’t handle the demand. The grid required to do so is fantasy at this time. Let’s hear it, where will the power to charge and re-charge come from? Oh, and rare-earth-minerals, what are those?

Alasdair
Reply to  Philip
January 26, 2022 12:24 pm

So when you have a duff battery due to too many rapid charges you nip along and get it replaced? OK, so what if someone beats you to it and you wind up with another duff battery?
The Lawyers will love it.

Pauleta
January 25, 2022 10:14 am

I reccomend walking next time.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Pauleta
January 25, 2022 10:28 am

Buy a horse!

Cam_S
Reply to  Jim Gorman
January 25, 2022 12:23 pm

Horses generate another kind of pollution… that city dwellers are guaranteed to complain about.

MarkW
Reply to  Cam_S
January 25, 2022 12:54 pm

City dwellers love nature. Except when it’s on their doorstep.

Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 1:49 pm

Except when it’s on their doorstep.”

Exactly! On their doorstep or closer, like their shoes or cuffs.

An occasional full face down in road apples would be nice for alarmists and green activists. Makes them feel at home trolling on science sites.

Dennis
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 5:17 pm

I remember when Horse and Cart deliveries were made when I was a small child and we were sent with shovel and bucket to collect the “fertiliser” for the vegetable garden.

TonyG
Reply to  Cam_S
January 26, 2022 12:14 pm

Won’t be noticed in San Francisco

John the Econ
January 25, 2022 10:15 am

It’s always fun to watch Progressive activists get hit by a 2×4 of reality.

As long as the capabilities of EVs are oversold, people will be disappointed. In their current state of evolution, EVs are still no where near direct replacements for conventional automobiles, and placing charging stations all over the place will not change that.

Nobody (beyond those who wish to do so for their eco-vanity virtue signaling) who regularly requires their car to travel more than 100 miles a day is going to seriously consider an EV, even if charging stations are available anywhere. So placing charging stations all over really isn’t going to make EVs substantially more popular than they are. Not going to happen.

EVs are optimal for repetitive daily commutes of a finite distance; a scenario where a user can confidently leave home with a full charge, drive it to work or errands during the day safely within its range capability, and return home to recharge again overnight. Nobody is going to be satisfied with a car that they must constantly monitor for range and then find a place to charge, and then wait a half-hour or longer for it to do so. Not when a conventional auto can for a fraction of the price travel 5 or 6 times the distance and can be refueled in 5 minutes.

EVs will only retain popularity with short-range commuters or for wealthy people considering a 2nd or 3rd car. EV evangelists who are overselling the EV’s capability is doing their movement a disservice, and are actually discouraging EV adoption.

william Johnston
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 10:51 am

Bless the evangelists!

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 11:40 am

“EVs are optimal for repetitive daily commutes of a finite distance”

get a bus!

ihfan
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 25, 2022 2:46 pm

get a bus!

If buses in your area are anything like they are where I live, they drive around all day long moving 2-4 people between stops. What a huge waste of diesel and big polluters.

John Endicott
Reply to  ihfan
January 26, 2022 9:21 am

Even putting aside the efficiency/waste side of things. If you live in the city, you might have no problem finding a bus (or train) going where you want, close when you want to be there. But for those living in more rural areas, there most likely isn’t a bus route that matches where you want to go or a schedule that matches when you need to be there. Its often literally a case of can’t get there on a bus from here.

John Endicott
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 26, 2022 9:16 am

If taking the bus was always the solution, car ownership would not have taken off the way it did and the commuters would already be taking the busses all the time rather than driving themselves. Fact is buses have limited routes and limited schedules – which is fine when where you have to go is covered by a bus route and when you have to be there lines up with the bus schedule. However, if your “repetitive daily commutes of finite distance” doesn’t line up with bus routing and scheduling, what then? Hmmm?

MarkW
Reply to  John Endicott
January 26, 2022 12:50 pm

Unless you get an express bus, the ride will also take a lot longer as the bus has to repeatedly stop to let people on and off.

MarkW
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 12:14 pm

Will EV’s remain popular when renewable energy means they may not have a chance to recharge overnight?

Dennis
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 5:19 pm

Don’t laugh, on a crazy blog where renewable energy freaks spread manure regularly one commented that she would buy an EV and recharge it overnight from solar panels.

She was serious.

Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 12:20 pm

EVangelists.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  John the Econ
January 25, 2022 4:39 pm

The polls I’ve seen indicate that the average EV is typically used as a second car, more for running errands like grocery shopping and the like. Folks that commute leave the EV at home and drive their ICE.

Dennis
Reply to  Robert Hanson
January 25, 2022 5:21 pm

And my son who is a builder told me about younger clients who regularly buy carbon credits for virtue signalling, that would also be for driving the ICEV.

Carbon credits can be purchased from a friendly banker, and like emissions trading schemes are wealth creation vehicles based on climate hoax politics. Another example of the farce.

Last edited 3 months ago by Dennis
John Endicott
Reply to  Robert Hanson
January 26, 2022 9:25 am

Folks that commute leave the EV at home and drive their ICE.”

Depends on the commuting circumstances. For example, My brother has a plug-in hybrid. His workplace has free charging. He commutes in the plug-in and charges it up for free at work. a pure electric would equally be usable in that commuting situation.

MarkW
Reply to  John Endicott
January 26, 2022 12:52 pm

This is a solution that will only work so long as the percentage of the work force that drives EVs stays very small. As the percentage increases, the cost to the company goes up, and the workers who don’t drive EVs start getting restive as they have to suffer through smaller raises to pay for all that free electricity and charging stations.

John the Econ
Reply to  Robert Hanson
January 26, 2022 11:33 am

I live in a small town in flyover country. My typical trip downtown on errands is well less than 10 miles round-trip. An EV would be great for that. Unfortunately, everything else is a long trip. For me, and EV would be a 2nd car.

MarkW
Reply to  John the Econ
January 26, 2022 12:54 pm

I’m in a similar situation, I drove less than 2000 miles in the last 12 months. We do have a second car, my wife’s Versa. However we live in an apartment and recharging just isn’t an option.

John Endicott
Reply to  John the Econ
January 26, 2022 9:32 am

EVs will only retain popularity with short-range commuters or for wealthy people considering a 2nd or 3rd car”

Spot on. The limitations of EVs relegates them to limited use cases, which limits the desire to own one to the niche of the market for whom those use cases most apply.

MarkW
Reply to  John Endicott
January 26, 2022 12:57 pm

I for one have no problem with someone who can make use of an EV, buying one.
Just don’t force me to subsidize your choice.

ResourceGuy
January 25, 2022 10:26 am

Careful, publicly demonstrating flaws in EVs can get you excommunicated from the Gaia Church. Pope Gore says so.

Sunsettommy(@sunsetmpoutlookcom)
Editor
January 25, 2022 10:27 am

The idea of renting a car must have been too obvious to ponder but that is a dangerous idea to get stuck with when her cultist friends see the heresy of a “fossil” car in their midst when she arrived in it.

Better to stay home and wait for her car to get charged up and miss seeing her cultist friends.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 25, 2022 11:15 am

Wouldn’t have been more “green” to attend by video conference? Perhaps all EVs could be equipped with video conferencing devices in case this happens again.

Bob in St Louis
Reply to  Tom in Florida
January 25, 2022 11:42 am

What powers the video conferencing equipment ?

ihfan
Reply to  Bob in St Louis
January 25, 2022 2:48 pm

What powers the video conferencing equipment ?

Seriously, that’s a good question. How much energy would be used by an equivalent video conference vs. her commute.

Peter W
Reply to  Bob in St Louis
January 25, 2022 2:50 pm

A hand-cranked generator?

twobob
Reply to  Peter W
January 25, 2022 3:55 pm

She was a hand-cranked Green generator,mostly methane operated.;-[

Bob in St Louis
Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 25, 2022 11:43 am

Maybe there’s a business based on renting out EV’s for short trips.

Dennis
Reply to  Bob in St Louis
January 25, 2022 6:49 pm

How about for long distances staging posts, like coach travel and horse exchange posts, but drop off an EV and drive away in a fully charged EV?

sarc.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Dennis
January 26, 2022 4:41 am

Just like the Pony Express, which lasted for about a year and a half.

Gordon A. Dressler
Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 25, 2022 12:00 pm

There are also buses and taxis by which one could have easily travelled from San Jose to San Francisco (and back), but eco-warriors are often above using environmentally-friendly mass transportation.

What? Mix with the common folks? . . . Who, me?

Alasdair
January 25, 2022 10:28 am

A good support system would have been to hire an ICE vehicle to get her there ; but with her confused thinking that wouldn’t have occurred to her.

MarkW
Reply to  Alasdair
January 25, 2022 12:16 pm

She can rent an ICE, and have it tow her EV. Then when she gets to her hotel, park the ICE and drive the EV to the conference so she can show off her green credentials. Then use the ICE to tow the EV back home when it’s all over.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 1:13 pm

IIRC someone demonstrated towing a Tesla with an ICE vehicle to use the Tesla’s regenerative braking to charge it.

James B.
Reply to  Alasdair
January 25, 2022 12:45 pm

Maybe she could tow a trailer with a diesel generator as the “Support System”?

Dennis
Reply to  James B.
January 25, 2022 5:24 pm

What about phoning for a roadside assistance flat top tow truck with diesel engine to carry her EV?

lol

January 25, 2022 10:36 am

Check the worry in my eyes.

Tom Halla
January 25, 2022 10:39 am

Schadenfreude! Stupid fanaticism is often its own punishment.

bonbon
January 25, 2022 10:40 am

OT, at the other side of the globe,
Istanbul airport shuts amid snow havoc in southeast Europe – from phys.org
Not known how many climate activists are there….

children-and-tourists.jpg
Last edited 4 months ago by bonbon
Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 11:44 am

just watched a video saying its economy is collapsing- mostly as part of the European energy crisis- it’s not getting enough gas

for any geologists out there- does Turkey have any fossil fuels? does it frack? are they being exploited or not?

David Middleton(@debunkhouse)
Editor
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 25, 2022 12:16 pm
Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  David Middleton
January 25, 2022 2:41 pm

amazing, zero mention of wind and solar

Dean
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 25, 2022 6:29 pm

Sure does, I worked on some brown coal projects in the South East of Turkey. Generally pretty low grade coal, but very suitable for mine mouth power stations.

Availability of cooling water was one of the serious issues to solve.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 11:52 am

“Not known how many climate activists are there….”

probably about as many as openly gay atheists

Mike McMillan
Reply to  Eric Worrall
January 25, 2022 4:38 pm

All that snow on the palm trees; just like Christmas all over again.

Reply to  bonbon
January 25, 2022 2:32 pm
Last edited 3 months ago by Krishna Gans
Robert Hanson
Reply to  Krishna Gans
January 25, 2022 4:47 pm

The Army has been sent out with food, water, and blankets, to rescue the thousands of stranded motorists. Typical snow fall for Athens is less than an inch per year. Yesterday they got over 3 inches. Which wouldn’t be that much of a problem in North Dekota, but Athens is another matter.

John Endicott
Reply to  Robert Hanson
January 26, 2022 9:35 am

Obviously all the fault of CO2. /sarc

James Bull
Reply to  bonbon
January 26, 2022 1:35 pm

Is Al the climate Gore visiting the area?

James Bull

David Elstrom
January 25, 2022 10:41 am

Plunder and deceit are the twin pillars of American Marxism.

MarkW
Reply to  David Elstrom
January 25, 2022 12:39 pm

Not just American Marxism.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  David Elstrom
January 25, 2022 6:35 pm

Punder and deceit and false flag attacks.

John Endicott
Reply to  David Elstrom
January 26, 2022 9:37 am

Plunder and deceit are the twin pillars of American Marxism the world over.

Fixed that for you

MarkW
Reply to  John Endicott
January 26, 2022 12:58 pm

And probably other worlds as well. If we ever get that far.

Joel O'Bryan(@joelobryan)
January 25, 2022 10:41 am

When their Green schemes fail, as they inevitably do because they are not grounded in reality, they blame not having spent enough money and demand even more spending in a do-over.

John Bell
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 25, 2022 11:34 am

Right Joel! They always think that some “tipping point” must be met and exceeded, and then the technology will survive by itself, so if it is failing, then we must do more of it. Always a losing proposition.

markl
January 25, 2022 10:43 am

Oh my. Ruined her day. All those plans of virtue signaling her trip to a climate change rally being appropriate because she used an EV went right down the drain. Schadenfreude.

Jeff Norman
January 25, 2022 10:46 am

Because travelling 500 km round trip to protest climate change is the “right” thing to do.

HotScot
Reply to  Jeff Norman
January 25, 2022 11:12 am

Driving a car fuelled by coal……..

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Jeff Norman
January 25, 2022 11:45 am

no buses out there?

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 25, 2022 6:57 pm

A bus requires you to rub shoulders with the unwashed masses, don’t you know? Considering that there’s a good chance that she is also a member of the Branch Covidians…

n.n
Reply to  Jeff Norman
January 25, 2022 12:23 pm

A trip to protest shared/shifted responsibility in an electric vehicle with shared/shifted responsibility that is out-of-sight and out-of-mind by design.

Brad-DXT
January 25, 2022 10:48 am

EVs, solar panels, windmills, and other “green” technologies are only useful in niche applications. It is obvious this activist is clueless and expects everyone else to pay for her ignorance.
At one time I was interested in an EV but only because it was a sportscar capable of doing 0-60 mph in under 3 seconds. I never imagined using it for a long trip. This large expansion of a niche product has totally turned me off from EVs.

Dennis
Reply to  Brad-DXT
January 25, 2022 6:52 pm

Audi raced a couple of EV in the last Dakar Rally across deserts, I wonder how they were recharged in those remote areas, diesel fuelled generators I guess.

Which does result in an EV promotion exercise in futility.

John Endicott
Reply to  Dennis
January 26, 2022 9:43 am

Audi didn’t race a pure electric, it was a hybrid.

Audi’s RS Q E-Tron Dakar rally cars take multiple stage wins in Saudi Arabia – Roadshow (cnet.com)

“Audi is hoping to revolutionize rallying with the RS Q E-Tron just as it did in 1981 when it introduced its Quattro all-wheel-drive system. However, the company knows current battery technology just can’t compete in a long-stage, multiday rally like the Dakar. The range just isn’t there. So the car’s 52-kilowatt-hour battery is charged on the go by a gas-powered 2.0-liter I4 turbocharged engine.”

Rud Istvan
January 25, 2022 10:50 am

Fantasies tripped up by reality. She appears emotionally unstable as a result.

SLO to SF is 231 miles via US 101. She made it to San Jose, 184 miles. Too stupid to know that in winter with heat on, battery range is significantly less. Ditto summer with AC on. She had no hope of making it on one charge in January in NoCal. Nice illustration of EV range anxiety.

And to show how EV makers pretend there is not a problem, following the ‘official’ specified MY 2022 one charge mileage ranges:
BMW I4 301
Tesla M3 272
Chevy Bolt 259
VW iD4 240
Heidi probably believed them.

By comparison, at 70mph my 2007 Ford hybrid Escape gets 360 with the AC on on using 12 gallons of regular

Curious George(@moudryj)
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 25, 2022 11:30 am

Plan your EV trip carefully. No long distance in winter or in summer.

Reply to  Curious George
January 25, 2022 2:55 pm

Long distance trips, to me, are those trips that take more than one day in an ICE carrying goods.
Not, afternoon outings or easy drives cross country.

The longest one charge mileages in Rud’s list is 301 miles; approximately 5 hours at 60mph; 4.3 hours at 70mph and 4 hours at 75. All within speed limit speeds I’ve driven on interstates.

California’s speed limit on interstates is 75mph, 55mph for commercial trucks and vehicles towing something.
231 miles, SLO – San Francisco, at 75 that is a 3 hours five minutes drive. In my truck that is a shade over half a tank of fuel which doesn’t include the reserve.

Steve B
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 25, 2022 11:52 am

On my retirement holiday in 2012 driving the CPH I had a leg from SLO to San Fran. I didn’t remember it being that long in my convertible Chevy. Didn’t realise it was over 230 miles, but I was more concerned with the scenery, wind in my hair and walking across the Golden Gate Bridge than my carbon footprint.

I dread to think what San Fran to the Avenue of the Giants and back was, but it was fun.

n.n
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 25, 2022 12:19 pm

Design capacity deja vu.

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 25, 2022 12:42 pm

Even without using the heat, cold reduces the how much of the batteries charge you will be able to extract. Cold can also make it hard, to impossible, to charge the batteries.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 1:27 pm

Actually the cold charging difficulty heats the battery up so that it will eventually charge. Unfortunately that also shortens battery life.

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 25, 2022 2:10 pm

While looking for charging current for a Tesla, I found information the claims that when between 0C and 15C, the tesla reduces battery charging to a fairly small amount. Below 0C, it doesn’t permit charging at all.
I would assume that in addition to the active cooling elements, there must be heating elements as well. These elements could be powered from the charger to warm the battery enough for charging to start.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 3:34 pm

Might be true. Teslas are selling in Norway, where winter charging is a definite problem.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Rud Istvan
January 26, 2022 6:07 am

This is what they think of Teslas in Finland!!

Steve O
January 25, 2022 10:51 am

Electric cars will have a permanent share of the marketplace. Their strongest niche is as expensive sports cars, or commuting vehicles where round-trip range is not an issue. You have to be able to charge overnight at your own home, and you need a second vehicle for longer trips.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve O
January 25, 2022 12:43 pm

As renewables become a larger fraction of the grid, the assumption that there will be free electrons available for overnight charging becomes problematic.

Dennis
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 5:33 pm

I read about a commercial and residential building located in Port Melbourne, Victoria, Australia and the body corporate consulting electrical contractors regarding provision of EV recharging points in the basement carpark.

The advice was that according to inquiries with the electricity suppliers to that local area grid there was insufficient supply to cope with the extra demand for EV recharging without major upgrading including a sub-station in addition to the costs of wiring and connectors in the basement carpark.

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis
January 26, 2022 7:36 am

Many cities are banning charging in underground parking areas for safety reasons.

Dennis
Reply to  Steve O
January 25, 2022 5:29 pm

In Australia the Federal Government in office during 2016 and with support from the opposition introduced a subsidy to vehicle leasing firms, A$300 million in total, to help those businesses promote EV to fleet leasing clients.

So I suspect that of the not very many but expensive EV on the roads here most are company executive vehicles.

Dean
Reply to  Steve O
January 25, 2022 6:33 pm

One of the strongest niches is providing a means to virtue signal.

TonyG
Reply to  Dean
January 26, 2022 1:51 pm

Wouldn’t have to signal your virtue if you actually had any

John Endicott
Reply to  Steve O
January 26, 2022 9:48 am

That’s their second strongest niche. The actual strongest niche is virtue signaling.

James Bull
Reply to  Steve O
January 26, 2022 1:43 pm

You might not be able to overnight recharge in the UK as the government want you to have a separate smart meter for home charging so they can control demand on the grid so you may find yourself coming down in the morning to a flat battery. Also the distribution network (wires in the streets) aren’t up to having fast charge fitted so at best you’d have slow charge.

James Bull

George
January 25, 2022 10:57 am

EV are so impractical. I fail to see the interest in such useless technology. The cost vs benefit is simply not there except those who see it as a novelty and don’t plan on driving much further than the grocery store and back. I won’t waste my time or money on EV technology.

Slowroll
Reply to  George
January 25, 2022 11:11 am

But the virtue signaling benefit is paramount.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  George
January 25, 2022 11:19 am

Inner city taxis would be a practical use of EVs. Just have enough vehicles to be able to rotate them between driving and charging.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Tom in Florida
January 25, 2022 11:48 am

pretty expensive have the majority of your vehicles not “working”

Dennis
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 25, 2022 5:35 pm

Renewable energy/climate hoax fans usually have little or no understanding of profit, or even the difference between revenue and profit before tax, let alone a return on investment of shareholder’s funds.

James Bull
Reply to  Dennis
January 26, 2022 1:48 pm

This video sums up EV’s at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBwcwnKHVJA

James Bull

John Endicott
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
January 26, 2022 9:50 am

Depends on how much subsidy farming once can do for having them.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom in Florida
January 25, 2022 12:45 pm

The problem there is that you have just doubled the number of vehicles each taxi company has to buy, plus EVs are more expensive to begin with.
You have also doubled the amount of parking that is going to be needed as well.

MarkW
Reply to  George
January 25, 2022 12:43 pm

You also need a place to charge it. Which leaves out most apartment dwellers.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  George
January 26, 2022 8:53 am

According to the International Energy Agency there were 10.2m EVs/BEVs in the world at the end of 2020 with 4.5m of them in China, 3.2m in Europe, 1.7m in US and others 0.7m.This was after several years of such cars being available to buy

Meanwhile in 2020 alone sales of ICEVs in China (27.5m), Europe (17.6m) and US (14.3m) totalled 59.9m.

It would seem that many car buyers feel the same as you and bear in mind that there are at least 1.4 billion ICEVs already worldwide. EVs will be niche vehicles for a very long time and sooner or later politicians are going to have to face that reality.

Last edited 3 months ago by Dave Andrews
fretslider
January 25, 2022 11:06 am

No charge has a completely different meaning now

John Bell
January 25, 2022 11:27 am

Marvelous story! Perfect example of leftist idiots thinking they can operate just as they did with fossil fuels. Hilarious!

Adrian Mann
January 25, 2022 11:33 am

“EVs are useless”. Hmm… let’s see how that’s holding up in a few years time. Meanwhile… anyone want to buy a buggy whip?

MarkW
Reply to  Adrian Mann
January 25, 2022 12:46 pm

I’ve always been fascinated by those who actually believe that since ICE replaced the horse, therefor EV’s will replace the ICE.
Care to address how the many problems associated with EV’s are going to be addressed? Or are you one of those who just assume that somebody is going to invent a miracle battery that will save the day?

Mr.
Reply to  Adrian Mann
January 25, 2022 1:44 pm

You’re into flagellation?
(I guess that fits with an attraction for an EV)

Reply to  Eric Worrall
January 25, 2022 2:28 pm

These 3 point’s aren’t a bug, but a feature, and it seems these points will stay a ™ for EV over a longer time.

Dennis
Reply to  Eric Worrall
January 25, 2022 5:37 pm

Exactly my concerns, and I too would changeover to EV if equivalent to my ICEV including price, range and recharging time.

Dean
Reply to  Adrian Mann
January 25, 2022 6:37 pm

If an EV suited my needs, and was able to do it at a lower cost than my current diesel vehicle, then I would be all in.

Its always a comparison between options, and currently EV’s are useless at meeting my requirements compared to my other options.

If EV technology can improve to be the best overall option then I will buy one.

Dennis
Reply to  Dean
January 25, 2022 8:59 pm

Electricity grids would need substantial upgrading and supply from reliable nuclear power stations if hydro is not viable because of water supply problems.

MarkW
January 25, 2022 11:38 am

If Harmon wasn’t such a deep green, it might have dawned on her that her experience is unequivocal evidence that EVs are useless.

That’s a general left wing trait. They never admit that their ideas don’t work, they just conclude that government isn’t doing enough to make it happen.

MarkW
January 25, 2022 11:39 am

If she was truly committed to fighting climate change, she would have telecommuted to the conference in the first place.

Peta of Newark
January 25, 2022 11:41 am

Another failed book marking attempt on my part concerend an elderly couple living the outskirts of London and who bought a Renault Zoe, talking to the BBC.
The car was primarily to visit their children who lived on the diagonal opposite side of London.

The woman was doing the talking in interview and she was ever so ever so pleased about dodging all the Congestion and Pollution (the ULEZ) charges in London.
I did wonder why she had to spend £31,000 in order to do that, why not simply take the bus at £3 for the round trip.
No matter

She then recounted the long distance journeys she’d been on in the car and her story is exactly as this story – a whole litany of broken and non-functioning chargers stretching from London to Bristol and beyond.
It was obvious though she didn’t actually say the words, that anything more than a ride across town stressed her out so much she simply wouldn’t go there again

lmo
January 25, 2022 11:41 am

Doesn’t she know that you just park your armored Suburban a couple of blocks away and ride your bike?

Rud Istvan
Reply to  lmo
January 25, 2022 12:23 pm

Ah, Mayor Pete. Trans Sec got caught out.

Gordon A. Dressler
January 25, 2022 11:41 am

Hmmmm . . . Heidi Harmon is not the brightest bulb on the street, is she?

Just how long had she owned her EV before this event caused her first become aware of the multi-hours charging time required to drive it distances over 250-300 miles?

Hey, an EV’s driver’s manual? . . . what the heck is need for that???

Reply to  Gordon A. Dressler
January 25, 2022 2:24 pm

RTFM is out of date 😀

starzmom
January 25, 2022 11:43 am

This morning I looked at the PJM Interconnect website. Two things caught my eye. One was the load and generation mix–109,000MW with less than 5000MW of wind power. The second was a fact sheet on how they plan to provide power for the large number of EVs in their territory. These would be charged with excess renewable energy, as they phase out fossil fuel.

With the current mix it seems there is no excess renewable energy at any time, and little chance of getting to that point any time soon.

Oh, and they also think that your EV could be used to stabilize the grid. How will that work out in the morning when you have to go to work?

Carlo, Monte
January 25, 2022 11:47 am

Simon the BatteryCarBoi won’t like this one…

Barnes Moore
January 25, 2022 11:52 am

But I thought California was chock full of fast charging stations. What possibly could have gone wrong?

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Barnes Moore
January 25, 2022 12:23 pm

She probably didn’t have a Tesla.

Quelgeek
January 25, 2022 11:55 am

I have no objection to EVs at all. In principle an electric car can snap your neck with its acceleration and should be a total blast cornering.

But there is no way on earth I want to own a battery. I want the battery to be like a propane cylinder. I want to drop the dead battery, pay for the charge in a fresh one, plonk it in (or better, have some kind of ‘bot offer it it up), and off I go in minutes.

As long as I am expected to own (and depreciate) the battery, and loiter about waiting for it to charge every time it dies en route, they can go hang.

MarkW
Reply to  Quelgeek
January 25, 2022 1:00 pm

You are paying for the depreciation whether you own the battery or not.
If you don’t own it, the depreciation will be built into the rent you are paying for the battery.

Quelgeek
Reply to  MarkW
January 25, 2022 2:51 pm

I am prepared to share the declining value of all batteries with all other users. That is fair.

The excessively rapid decline in the value of my car was not what I intended as my main point though. I regret clouding the issue.

MarkW
Reply to  Quelgeek
January 25, 2022 7:36 pm

You aren’t saving any money, just changing how you label it.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Quelgeek
January 26, 2022 4:54 am

EVs have great low end acceleration but unless you have the super high end model they peter out at higher speeds. Why do you think taking an overweight vehicle around corners would be a blast? Do you like the feeling of losing control?

Rod Evans
January 25, 2022 12:02 pm

” Oh dear, how sad, never mind”
It ain’t half hot mum.

J Mac
January 25, 2022 12:04 pm

Ahhhh – The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one!

Sean
January 25, 2022 12:20 pm

I looked up to see if a train was available. San Luis Obispo is only ~230 miles from San Francisco but there are no direct trains at all so it takes 7 hours. I find this surprising. Buses are 4.5 hours but they don’t seem to run on a regular schedule. So I guess you gotta drive. For all the money spent on high speed rail in the state, it seems like it was originally envisioned as a third option (to fly or drive) for the wealthy in LA and San Francisco and they’ve left the ordinary people of the state with green ambitions to fend for themselves.

Richard Page
Reply to  Sean
January 27, 2022 3:59 pm

7 hours? Her car might be 2/3 charged in that time! sarc

Rhee
Reply to  Sean
January 27, 2022 4:26 pm

Astute observation. As for the mythical high speed rail, that project is still a train to nowhere; the current rage by Newsom is to somehow finish a roughly 100 mile segment between a non-descript point north of Bakersfield to another non-descript point near Merced, where a small University of California campus is located. These two points are smack in the middle of the inland valley part of the state, both being at least 200 miles from either LA or SF, to which the train is likely never to be connected, at least in the current century because this small segment will probably not enter operation until sometime in the 2030s.

ghalfrunt
Reply to  Sean
January 27, 2022 4:53 pm

according to route planner
distance is 232 miles
A vw id3 will require one charge at 8065 san miguel canyon stopping 26 minutes
total time 4h9m

Plenty of charge points on route 22 to 50kw

n.n
January 25, 2022 12:24 pm

The solution is to spread the Green blight in lieu of a green and hospitable Earth.

Vuk
January 25, 2022 12:37 pm

Unless you are stuck next to recharging station, running down battery charge trying to keep warm in Athens or Istanbul today would not be terribly good idea.
Rescue crews in Istanbul and Athens dug through snow and ice Tuesday to clear paralyzed roads and rescue people stranded overnight in their cars after snowstorms and a massive cold front brought much of Turkey and Greece to a standstill.
Earlier today I reported record low temperature in the nearby Monte Negro of -33.2C (-28F).

Reply to  Vuk
January 25, 2022 2:22 pm

Global warming at it’s best 😀

ghalfrunt
Reply to  Vuk
January 27, 2022 4:56 pm

A half charged battery would last you 17 hours