Nevermind…Maybe HCQ not so bad.

As noted previously by Leo Goldstein, there has been a coordinated attempt by institutional press and academia to discredit the use of Hydroxychloroquine.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/05/11/distributed-denial-of-hcq-to-covid-19-victims/

As noted in yesterday’s edition of Science:

A mysterious company’s coronavirus papers in top medical journals may be unraveling

By Kelly Servick, Martin EnserinkJun. 2, 2020 , 7:55 PM

On its face, it was a major finding: Antimalarial drugs touted by the White House as possible COVID-19 treatments looked to be not just ineffective, but downright deadly. A study published on 22 May in The Lancet used hospital records procured by a little-known data analytics company called Surgisphere to conclude that coronavirus patients taking chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine were more likely to show an irregular heart rhythm—a known side effect thought to be rare—and were more likely to die in the hospital.

Within days, some large randomized trials of the drugs—the type that might prove or disprove the retrospective study’s analysis—screeched to a halt. Solidarity, the World Health Organization’s (WHO’s) megatrial of potential COVID-19 treatments, paused recruitment into its hydroxychloroquine arm, for example. (Update: At a briefing on 3 June WHO announced it would resume that arm of the study.)

And we all saw the screaming news stories.

Several studies have found that the malaria drug — highly touted by President Trump, who says he takes it — is harmful to patients–People.com

And shortly thereafter.

But just as quickly, the Lancet results have begun to unravel—and Surgisphere, which provided patient data for two other high-profile COVID-19 papers, has come under withering online scrutiny from researchers and amateur sleuths.

Things moved quickly.

Today, The Lancet issued an Expression of Concern (EOC) saying “important scientific questions have been raised about data” in the paper and noting that “an independent audit of the provenance and validity of the data has been commissioned by the authors not affiliated with Surgisphere and is ongoing, with results expected very shortly.”

Hours earlier, The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) issued its own EOC about a second study using Surgisphere data, published on 1 May

Bizarre age we live in, where an entire FIELD is hijacked in order to discredit an individual–to the point of killing people.

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288 thoughts on “Nevermind…Maybe HCQ not so bad.

  1. Not bizarre at all, simply the political left doing what it always does. People dying is just gravy over top for them.

    • “Do I denounce the riots, the pillaging of cities, the burning and looting, the attacks on innocent bystanders? Hey, if you’re making an omelet you gotta break a few eggs, ok? The ends justify the means.”

      The same goes for truth and honesty in a pandemic, a crisis not to be wasted.

    • This is the hockey stick all over again. A bogus study that delivers the message those in authority want and expect to hear. As a result it gets promoted without any due dilligence.

      In this case the message was “Trump is wrong” and people were falling all over each other to repeat the message.

      • Indeed it is the hockey stick all over again. However, I would prefer doctors making life and death decisions not to be down at the level of climate ‘scientists’ hiding the decline. They have literally condemned some people to death who otherwise may have survived.

        Similarly I have seen no ‘talking head’ doctor advise people to be sufficient in vitamin D and zinc. Both simple and cheap to do and it would prevent a lot of hospitalizations due to COVID-19 and may stop some infections by boosting the innate immune system.

        The medical profession has in the case of this pandemic shown themselves to be completely unprofessional, so who knows where else there is unprofessional behaviors?

  2. hoping that was from tip I sent.

    added to that is this
    https://twitter.com/statnews/status/1268256525203750917

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/03/hydroxychloroquine-does-not-prevent-covid-19-infection-in-people-who-have-been-exposed-study-says/

    as I tweeted:
    https://twitter.com/conserv_voice/status/1268261486977331204

    researchers also counted patients who had symptoms consistent with disease, in part because testing wasn’t available.
    *****
    The study was conducted in an unusual way: over the internet, without patients being seen by study doctors.
    *****
    no chance of bad data there..

    and:

    Steven Nissen, a cardiologist and veteran clinical trialist at the Cleveland Clinic, was much harsher. The fact that patients self-reported their data and that one in five did not take all their doses of the study drug, as well as the study’s small size, made him less than confident that the study could entirely rule out that hydroxychloroquine had some preventative effect. He emphasized that more studies of the drug, which was widely prescribed during the initial months of the Covid-19 pandemic, have not been completed.

    • Interesting article and comments

      So we have a very strange situation with some recent publications, one that deserves a closer look. The ones I refer to are the recent Lancet retrospective study on hydroxychloroquine use (blogged about here), one of the hospital data studies on the effect of anti-angiotensin therapies on the outcomes of coronavirus patients, and a preprint about the use of Ivermectin against the coronavirus (mentioned at the end of this blog post). All three of these rely on a large amount of multihospital patient data from a company called Surgisphere. Update: the Lancet now has an Expression of Concern out too.

    • The mechanism of action of the combination HCQ + Zn has never been about “preventing” or “keeping” from being infected with the virus. It doesn’t create a forcefield around you to keep it from entering the body. Once it enters the body, the virus is not destroyed right away. It is most likely that the body will react at first because it has detected the virus, but the replication of such virus will be compromised once it enters cells.

      They were not questioning the drug when it was promoted by China, Korea or even France… but once Trump mentioned it, this drug became another argument by some (cough) journalists to try to take him down, again.

      • Ray you have that right.

        I read the initial Nature paper and immediately procured a hundred quinine tablets (they don’t bother me). When such a large number of reporting hold that it has anti-viral effects, going all the way back to SARS-1, what else show we do? Ignore it and wait for Gilead to get their miracle approved? From what I read so far HCQ+zinc is about twice as effective as Remdesivir.

        Too bad it is so cheap, eh?

      • Except that there is considerable effort that shows HCQ does NOT WORK effectively, maybe not at all on Coronavirus.

        Just one of many is a U of Minnesota study just published. 800 people, results I would call inconclusive but show HCQ is no magic bullet, but nobody died….makes one wonder how many feel whatever they took saved their lives….still too small of a study, you will probably say, so you need it to be inconclusive on how many thousand subjects ?

        The University of Minnesota study is a double-blind randomized clinical control trial, considered the gold standard in medicine.

        Starting in mid-March, Boulware and his colleagues recruited 821 people in the US and Canada who had been exposed to Covid-19. Some were health care workers and others lived in the same house as someone with the virus. The median age was 40.

        About half the study subjects were assigned to take hydroxychloroquine for five days, and the other half were assigned to take a placebo, or a pill that does nothing. Neither the researchers nor the study subjects knew who was taking which drug.

        The researchers then monitored the study subjects for two weeks.

        In the end, it didn’t matter if they received the drug or not: about 12% of those taking hydroxychloroquine came down with symptoms of Covid-19, compared to about 14% of those taking the placebo, a difference that was not statistically significant.

        • The proposed protocol is hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin plus zinc. I fail to see any value in a study that uses just one of the three.

          Unless the real purpose of the study is to produce a failure that can be used for propaganda.

          • Always some reason for the recent tests to not work, no zinc, administered too late, adminstered too early, no Azithromycin….how about the likelihood that it doesn’t work very effectively ?
            Just sayin’….

          • DMacKenzie your dismissal reminds me of people who don’t follow directions…”I didn’t read the label who knew this was a suppository” 😉

          • Derg, thanks for the suppository info…
            So here is another vaunted study touting the benefits of HCQ….but notice their table 2 “Comorbidities”, the group put on HCQ has fewer comorbidities, so of course are going home “recovered” sooner. By 3 1/2 days out of an average 20 day hospital stay. Not Earth-shattering, and quite possibly meaningless due to the comorbidity frequency. As you say, read the label, maybe the comparison tables too….

        • In the end, it didn’t matter if they received the drug or not: about 12% of those taking hydroxychloroquine came down with symptoms of Covid-19, compared to about 14% of those taking the placebo, a difference that was not statistically significant.

          That’s not the point of HCQ. It is to allow those with COVID to recover quicker and with less severe symptoms, not to prevent the virus from infecting them in the first place.

          • Exactly so… without HCQ / CQ / quinine + zinc, you’re looking at potentially a couple of weeks of hard going. High fever, body aches, loss of taste and / or smell, lung congestion.

            With HCQ / CQ / quinine + zinc, you might not even notice you’ve been infected, especially if you’ve pre-dosed, as your symptoms will be minimal (mine were a slight tickle in the back of my throat and a feeling as though someone had unplugged my power cord, both of which were gone the next day). If you start taking it after getting infected, you’re looking at significant improvement in 24 hours or less for most people.

            Regardless of whether you choose the hard road or the easy road, your body has immunity once it clears the virus.

            The azithromycin is to prevent opportunistic infection from bacteria. If you’re pre-dosing with HCQ / CQ / quinine + zinc, it shouldn’t be necessary.

        • No zinc. Zinc is probably the main ingredient that HCQ helps to usher into the cells where it interfere with viral replication.

          Every group seeing HCQ effectiveness stresses the importance of early intervention and zinc supplementation. Most also include Azithromycin or Doxycycline.

          Why do all the studies omit these elements?

          • omitted because they want a fail or low use result
            and it all hit the fan as glileads expensive and useless antiviral got the push
            it was useless for ebola and was heading to orphan drug status i seem to remember reading
            Id be looking into who is involved funding etc this Surgisphere crowd
            bet theres bigpharma and political backing.

        • “About half the study subjects were assigned to take hydroxychloroquine for five days, and the other half were assigned to take a placebo, or a pill that does nothing. Neither the researchers nor the study subjects knew who was taking which drug.

          The researchers then monitored the study subjects for two weeks.

          In the end, it didn’t matter if they received the drug or not: about 12% of those taking hydroxychloroquine came down with symptoms of Covid-19, compared to about 14% of those taking the placebo, a difference that was not statistically significant.”

          Five days of treatment? That seems hardly adequate.

          President Trump took hydroxychloroquine for two weeks as a preventative. The way I understand that this works is during the two week period of taking the drug, the drug builds up in the body to where after you stop taking the drug after two weeks, the drug still remains effective in the body for about a month after you stop taking it.

          So this would supposedly protect one for at least a month and a half.

          As I said, it seems like a week of treatment is inadequate. Are not the doctors and nurses who are taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventative taking it on a daily basis?. They don’t just stop after taking it for a week, is my understanding.

        • The HCQ BY ITSELF has no real effect on the Coronavirus. It serves as an ionophore, which allows Zn++ to move through the cell wall, where it is the ZINC that prevents the virus replication. Trying to pooh-pooh treatment with HCQ by testing it IN ISOLATION is disingenuous to say the least. The zinc is an essential part of the protocol. I found this video by MedCram to be very informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7F1cnWup9M&t=102s

        • Meh – “came down with symptoms” – of course they did. Nobody has EVER suggested HCQ will PREVENT you from getting covid-19. It isn’t a vaccine. The relevant question is not whether or not people got sick, it is how sick those people ended up getting.

          Careful framing of the question is a classic method of biased science. If the honest and obvious question has an answer that you don’t like, just change the question until you find an answer you can spin the way you want. The peculiar way that the question in this study has been framed suggests to me that this is biased science.

          A classic example of this in climate science is the study that claimed tropical cyclones were becoming more severe. The honest approach to this issue would be to look for trends in the number of storms or in the number of severe storms. However the number of tropical cyclones has been decreasing overall and the number of severe tropical cyclones is also down, albeit by a lesser amount. That isn’t the story the authors wanted to tell. Inconvenient. Reframing the question in terms of the percentage of storms that are severe gave them an answer that could be spun the ‘right’ way.

          Whenever you see a peculiarly framed question in a study you should ask why the question has been framed in that way. Is it because a more straightforward question gives an answer that the authors of the paper don’t like.

      • It was already on. Once Trump mentioned it, the ongoing thimble-rigging campaign hit a snag, since it was impossible to hide at this point. Hence the standard response: doubling down and hysteria.

      • HCQ is a pro-drug form of CQ. CQ is a non-enzymatically bioactivated form of quinine. In the body, the end drug that has an effect is quinine. CQ and HCQ, being more complex molecules, take longer for the body to break down into quinine, and thus limit side effects (quinine is rapidly absorbed, which can cause heart palpitations at sufficient dosages). So CQ and HCQ allow higher dosages than quinine, with longer intervals between doses. Paradoxically, since some of the CQ or HCQ is excreted prior to conversion to quinine, it necessitates higher dosages to be as effective as quinine.

        HCQ / CQ / Quinine interrupts sialic acid biosynthesis. It is the sialic acid moieties which SARS, MERS and Covid-19 attach to in order to infect cells. In other words, by biosynthesizing that sialic acid, the cells are literally inviting the virus to attach. Nothing attaches without a pH gradient, so getting rid of or minimizing that pH gradient means the virus has a more difficult time attaching to cells. And that means it has a more difficult time replicating.

        It takes ~5 days to reach equilibrium levels of quinine in the body. Quinine half-life is ~18 hours. But even after equilibrium levels are reached, it takes ~30 days for all the cells to become ‘saturated’ with quinine, thus if you’ve pre-dosed for longer than 30 days, even after stopping dosages, you have ~30 days of decreasing prophylaxis as the quinine leaves the cells and is excreted.

        That’s not even taking into account the zinc, which interferes with viral replication.

        Thus, the body can clear the virus without also having to deal with a rapidly-spreading infection. That’s the basis behind why HCQ / CQ / quinine works.

        So, in a way, it does, in fact, “create a forcefield around you to keep it (Covid-19) from entering the body”. That ‘forcefield’ is a diminution of sialic acid biosynthesis.

      • “They were not questioning the drug when it was promoted by China, Korea”

        that’s because it was never promoted by China or Korea

        President Moon has been 100% silent on anything related to any treatment.
        and scientists and doctors likewise have said nothing.

        Trials on going. skeptics shut up until all the data is in

        • More than enough data is in to know for a certainty that Leftists are attacking a proven medicine because Trump is for it.
          It’s not enough any more to say Liberalism is a mental disorder. Leftists are criminally insane.

        • SILENCE, PUNY MORTALS, YOUR GOD STEVEN WILL TELL YOU WHEN YOU MAY RETURN TO YOUR USELESS AND PATHETIC LIVES!!!!!

          There, fixed it for you. Oh, hydroxychlorquine, zinc and antibiotic regime successfully treats Chinese Disease and there is nothing you can do to change that fact, Stevie.

          • Well antibiotics certainly work on secondary upper respiratory infections. But as far as HCQ and zinc, we are faced with about an equal number of studies that have reached weak positive and negative conclusions.
            You actually have to read these studies. They usually aren’t so emphatic on their successes. Media reports have stated misleading leaders like “100% recovery with Chloroquine” when the CQ and placebo groups both had full recovery, and “80% recovery with HCQ” when normal hospital treatment has 95+% recovery in many hospitals, now that everyone with a cough isn’t warded with the CoVid19 patients…..

          • I will go with what doctors treating patients say and what those patients have to say after treatment. Oh, and I have used hydroxychloriquine and ain’t dead, there is that angle.

  3. It is sort of amazing that Hydroxychloroquine, which has been prescribed for dozens of years for Malaria, Lupus/Arthritis, and taken by tens of millions individuals subject to Malaria for years on end, (and still is without any significance for harmed health) can all of a sudden become demonized if it is prescribed for 2 weeks at the beginning of COVID-20 onset of symptoms. And all the Drs that found it very effective if prescribed properly, usually with Zinc and many people claiming it saved their lives. And YouTube taking down any content that even mentions it being used for the Wuhan/China virus. What a farce Google and the monopolistic media have become.

    It is time to bust up (and prosecute) the monopolies of the media and the social media platforms that are now interfering in free speech and the right of people to pursue and seek truth from those that wish to responsibly express themselves.

    • Right on, Earthling2, and a lot of Trump Derangement Syndrome is involved with this misconduct. Here’s a question: Do the patients taking the HYdroxycloroquine or cloroquine, for lupus, malaria, rheumatoid arthritis, get Covid-19 at the the same rate as the general public? Much lower rate than the general public? This data would show whether or not it is a prophylactic, as it was taken by President Trump.

      • Apparently Dr Oz looked into incidence of corona infection in lupus and arthritis patients taking HCQ and and apparently found it worked well, mentioning thousands of patients. From the Daily Caller of April 05:

        “None of my lupus patients have developed covid, which is quite remarkable,” Dr. Daniel Wallace, a rheumatologist at Cedars-Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles, said in a teleconference for the Lupus Research Alliance.”

        and:

        Dr. Peggy Crow, the chief of rheumatology at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York, echoed Wallace’s observations.

        “The anecdotal experience,” she said on the teleconference, “is that many more presumably healthy people are developing infections with COVID-19 than we’ve seen in our lupus patients, or rheumatoid arthritis patients.”

      • In India and parts of Africa where Malaria is endemic, there are “surprising” pockets where COVID-19 has failed to become widespread. The reporters were “surprised” that where large populations are being treated with CQ or HCQ routinely there seems to be some marked resistance to COVID-19 infections. Gee, I wonder why? I would also like to see a specific study from Rheumatologists treating large numbers of LUPUS patients with HCQ with regard to the number of their patients who ultimately come down with COVID-19, especially in areas of high rates of infection.

    • One must remember that the whole purpose of pandemic scares like swine flu and Covid-19 is to allow the WHO to drum up massive revenue for their pharmaceutical supporters for vaccines that do not necessarily have work (as in swine Flu) and for hugely overpriced test kits that may or may not work and in any case are largely irrelevant to managing the disease. The last thing the WHO and their pharmaceutical overlords want is to have the coffers slammed shut by an orphaned drug. There is no point to a pandemic if it doesn’t fuel a big pharma feeding frenzy, in much the same way that global warming hysteria would vanish if subsidies to junk power were turned off and donations to the Green Fear industry waned.

    • As mentioned by another commenter earlier, we have mistakenly placed our trust in Big Tech. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon all seemed like good services for entertainment and information, but our trust in them is misplaced.

    • Prosecutions should be possible. The same “distributed” countrywide riots, lootings, beatings and death are also discernible. Gee, we have a number of intelligent lefty commenters among the many ‘Inexorables’ who come to WUWT that surely must be becoming disgusted with all this horror that can be laid at the feet of the mainstream Democrat Party and their mainstream adjunct media. They don’t care if people are killing people if it suits the Dem agenda.

      I have told many among friends and even a few in family that the party they think they are voting for no longer exists. Its something alien and very different. The pandemic of TDS itself tells me that the country had almost reached a point of no return. Trump interrupted something terrible in the works.

      • “ They don’t care if people are killing people if it suits the Dem agenda.”

        Their agenda is to kill people. Eugenics, abortion, banning DDT, etc. all aligned to rid the world of undesirables. How many gardeners does one need, after all?

    • I saw a study over a month ago that indicated that zinc in the laboratory could interfere with coronavirus replication. However, zinc is not able to penetrate the cellular barrier and get into cells where the virus invades to replicate. The study indicated that hydroxychloroquine can and does penetrate the cell and when it does, if zinc is present, the zinc can sneak into the cell with the hydroxychloroquine. I also checked and found that zinc is a recommended supplement for lupus patients and others who take hydroxychloroquine. If what I saw is accurate then a patient with zinc already present in their body may be helped by HCQ. Lupus patients are probably not immune, but if the virus cannot replicate their infections may be minor or asymptomatic.

  4. Great: I want to see it revealed unequivocally what role HCQ + Zn could/should have in RNA virus treatment.

    This is just part of the Left’s attack on all things good. Everything the LEFT touches is destroyed.

    Climate change—> must make energy expensive
    Russia—>must prevent Trump from being president
    Ukraine—>must protect Biden, and also get Trump
    HCQ + Zn bad—->because we cannot allow Trump to look good, let people die, that’s good for the Left
    Crashing the economy —->will take away one of Trump’s successes
    Destroying the country through riot—->So we can blame it on Trump.

  5. Do the people publishing Lancet even READ the trash the print?
    I am NOT a doctor and the article seemed flaky to me when I read it.
    How many million service personnel have been given it for over 70 years? Even I had it when stationed in the tropics 50 years ago.
    How many tourists been given it when taking a vacation in the tropics?
    How is a drug used for 70 plus years like it was aspirin and the “consequences” detailed in the report (scam) not noted years ago?

    • You see what the Lancet has published about the poor oppressed Palestinians using a HAMAS doctor as their source, and how awful thepoop poor Palestinians life is, medically speaking, due to the Israeli Jack Boot on their necks. Lancet lost any credibility with me a very long time ago.

    • Lancet today repented of there sponsoring this moronically conducted “research” , and have disavowed it, claiming methodological flaws in it.
      However there work was done, the WHO used this article to call upon all research projects on this to end. Perhaps already governments have defunded these research efforts.

      • Either that or they are trying to get ahead of the fallout if/when HCQ is proven effective for COVID.
        Oh gee, we have doubts about this study now….
        We’re going to investigate….

    • I am, and the Lancet study failed on a number of issues.

      Primarily, the controls were not acceptably matched to the test subjects…not even close. The Lancet knew it was crap and printed it anyway. They are not to be trusted. Science is for sale to any leftist cause.

    • The Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine should be removed from all academic libraries as they have shown that they do not check what they print. A relatively simple check would have found that ‘Surgisphere’ just did not have the capabilities it was claiming.
      I have found generally that academics in universities and now the medical profession are credulous and never check what they read if it supports their confirmation bias. How many of the references in the papers they cite in research have they actually checked and attempted to repeat to confirm that they are correct? None. So much for Nullius in verba.
      So academics are an ideal group to be pwned like this. Now it is known that these journals cannot be trusted they should be withdrawn and any papers citing content from them also withdrawn.

  6. In 2017 there were 2,813,503 deaths in the US.
    On average, that’s 54,105 per week.
    Over the 12 weeks of Covid-19 that’s 649,260 non-Covid deaths.
    Heart disease: 647,547 & 12,453 & 149,434
    Cancer: 599,108 & 11,521 & 138,252
    When will their pictures and back stories appear on a special front page section?

    Guess you can’t hang all of them as albatrosses around Trump’s neck.

    On the other hand, the 100 you chose to highlight out of the 100,000.
    Were 80 of them 65+? Cause that’s a fact, Jack
    Were 57 of them from NYC, NY, NJ or MA? Cause that’s a fact, Jack.
    Were 23 of them from NYC? Cause that’s a fact, Jack.
    What role did the following play?
    Atrocious health care? Heart disease? COPD? Diabetes? Kidney failure?

    But facts don’t fit your lying, rabble rousing, fact free, shit stirring, riot inciting, fake news narrative, do they?

    If I were Trump, I’d turn the DOJ, FCC and public class action lawsuit flame throwers loose on the MSM for betraying the public’s trust, for yelling “Wolf!!” in the Twitterverse, social media, print and broadcast theater and stampeding the country into an economic cluster ***!

    Maybe whatever arises out of the ashes will comprehend ethical and responsible journalism.

    • Nick, Good strong comment. I’d like to add that when this is all over and they do the analysis of this pandemic they are not going to find much of a bump in the death statistics. Why? Because almost all of those who have died were on the way out the door when they slipped on a banana peel. I understand that this does not help console those who have lost loved ones due to the virus. My apologies for sounding so coarse.

      It was clear from the beginning when the first cases were found in assisted care centers in Washington state that the elderly were the most susceptible to the virus. This is where the most care/protections should have been directed from the start. In the case of New York and New Jersey, both governors are guilty of hastening the death of the those residents in the care of these facilities.

      • “It was clear from the beginning when the first cases were found in assisted care centers in Washington state that the elderly were the most susceptible to the virus. ”

        If the US and all other countries would have looked at South Korea (which got the bug right after China), they would have all known that elderly are most susceptible to the virus. From the beginning, the average age of people in Korea who died with the virus was over 70 and the age group with most people in the ICU was the 80+ age group.

        • It should be pointed out however that there is a huge risk factor with the elderly that often gets glossed over and/or ignored: nursing homes and other long-term care facilities. Remove the deaths occurring in those facilities and the risk of dying for the elderly would go way down. The devil, as always, is in the details.

        • If it was “clear from the beginning” that “the elderly were the most susceptible to the virus”, it makes one wonder why PA, NY and NJ mandated that nursing homes had to take in recovering Covid-19 sufferers… almost as if they were trying to kill off as many people as possible to further some agenda, eh?

          • If there were an agenda at least one could *try* to bring reason into the mix. Sadly, that sounds too Alex Jonesesque for me.

            I think progressives just don’t care about the elderly – in my view a much more abhorrent and heinous moral failure.

          • Here in PA Dr Richard Levine(it is a he) stated that nursing homes are Intensive Care Facilities and that justified putting highly infectious patients into them, where the infection ran through residents like a brush fire on a windy day. I believe AndrewTheInsane used the same “reasoning”.

      • SMS says :
        Why? Because almost all of those who have died were on the way out the door when they slipped on a banana peel. I understand that this does not help console those who have lost loved ones due to the virus. My apologies for sounding so coarse.
        ___________________

        I’m 64, had a heart attack 13 years ago, and that puts me in a high tier for negative outcomes should I contract the CoVID. And, I’m not in the least bit offended by your frankness . About 5 years ago my family doctor asked for his record how most of the men on my dad’s side died.

        I calmly said “German artillery”. My doc is a smart guy, … he only tilted his head for about two seconds before he realized I was serious.

        Short story we’re on average living longer, maybe far longer than most of the people who’ve lived in the past. Mostly because our ancestors did extraordinary things.

  7. It is more than obvious that there is a war going on in the background against common sense, and against those who don’t ;ike to go along with the herd mentality of the Democrat/socialists.

  8. I’ve been taking low dose HCQ for months. I saw the first hints of what is now known of CoVID19 in the last week of December, … because I read the ID literature. Thanks “China Santa” !

    As time went on I simply assumed what we heard about HCQ in the MSM were anti-Trump falsehoods. Currently high-five-ing myself.

    • I took straight-up Chloroquine once a week for all of 1979, as a prophylactic for malaria, when I was teaching high school in rural Kenya. So it irritates me when I see headlines suggesting it is dangerous or untested.

      • @boffin77: the claim that chloroquine is dangerous or untested is a massive absurdity. There are millions of us who have taken it for long periods without contacting malaria and without serious side effects, and many of us recall that it seemed to help keep away common colds and flu as well. On the other hand, back in those days, I remember the warning about making sure you took precautions if you went back to places where malaria was NOT endemic and you actually went down with it. First of all, The medics would be likely to deny you had malaria, even though you knew exactly what you had. The next problem was nearly as bad. When they finally did a test and confirmed your diagnosis, they would be all over you for days and weeks, armies or students being paraded past you etc etc. High security imprisonment. One colleague had to escape by climbing out of a window, down a fire escape, and took off to the equivalent of a “safe house”.

    • The 64k question. With it almost impossible now to get a prescription for HCQ, where can it be bought online with out a deep dive.

      I was hoping the British/Indian ERD sirens would come thru…

      I mean with out having to go thru bit coin escrow site….

      • I recommend, you can easily find Zn ionophores Quercetin (600mg 2 x per day), and add some EGCG (green tea extract) recommended serving size, with 15mg Zn.

        These substances are derived from food and have numerous other health benefits, with no downsides I am aware of.

        • Already way past that. See the evms.edu/covidcare protocol. I am doing prevent now. Have reduced an to 75 mg per day. Down to 50 in a bit.

          My Wuhan keto latte already has cacao, billberry, and qucerin.
          Late day tonic, how much quinine, not enough. Vodka optional.

          • Terry thank you for response. 50mg are you talking about Zn? I do not take that much, it interferes with Cu…. I take 15 with Ca Mg Zn… But quinine, I have heard that this is not an ionophore, and does not do anything wrt to Zn in alveroar cells. I do take three different juiced veggies and fruits every morning… and several other things, and D3 2000iu 3 x day. I would not take the HCQ for me, only because I have what may be just as good or close to it protection from RNA virus’s trying to have their way in my cells!

          • Have not posted before, here is senate testimony of Dr Kory part of Dr Marik group. Hope link works.

            https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/testimony-kory-2020-05-06-revised

            As for quinine, lots of controversy. What else is new. But it is antiviral from way way back. Ionopore who knows.
            Have to take bulk vit c and zinc some how. Why not with tonic, vodka optional.

            It is criminal that there have been no front end studies comparing HCQ vs quceritin as ionopore. Thing is, HCQ is more than ionopore.
            Where I am at, would take weekly dose of hcq

            Have also added NAC and selinium

  9. “Bizarre age we live in, where an entire FIELD is hijacked in order to discredit an individual–to the point of killing people.”

    Good Lord! The left wing would think nothing of encouraging Global Thermonuclear War if they though that more Republicans would die than Democrats. Much like Climate Change fanatics, we are not dealing with logic here – we are dealing with deep emotion. The kind that would lead a person to commit suicide if they though that by doing so they could pin a murder charge on someone they hated….

    And in many countries, this sort of thinking is common amongst politicians…

  10. The BBC says Monday fact.
    Trump says Monday fact Tuesday.
    BBC says Tuesday fact false and Trump insane.

    Happens over and over. Whatever he says/does they launch in to discredit him, even if they blatantly contradict themselves. (Mind you, after some of his recent lapses of judgement, politics aside, he sounds nuts to me).

    Trump derangement syndrome is now so deeply embedded, the BBC would quite clearly rather help foment/orchestrate the downfall of society than have him in office for another term.

    • “(Mind you, after some of his recent lapses of judgement, politics aside, he sounds nuts to me).”

      Such as?

  11. Latest double bind study in New England medical journal confirms non effectiveness of hqc

      • “Worthless without data or any protocol.”

        NONE of the studies provide data

        NONE of the the studies “promoting HCQ”
        NONE of the studies recommending against it

        NONE of them supply data

        They all present RESULTS , but no DATA

        • It’s the old correlation vs causation issue where, without data, one cannot scientifically show something. I get it, believe me.

          For some people (think pragmatists like me who also love science), especially at a time of crisis, they do what is otherwise “shown to work”; because waiting 8 or 16 weeks for science, is a moot point. Y’all be dead or not have benefited from trying.

          Two things can be true when the issue is understood to not be mutually exclusive.

          This should not be in dispute. I think we all agree here that this is not a binary argument.

    • Brian: A number of ‘studies’ were done using major overdoses on already critical patients to get bad results to report! This is actually murder, my boy. The posting on WUWT by a Brazilian scientist the other day reports on this as well as the successes of HCQ testing.

      You do realize don’t you, the aricle of this comment section is reporting apologies from UK and US journals of medicine for questionable data used in their articles. Quoting them to support your thoughts is unwise.Typical stuff from the left: they are ‘following the Science’ in their policy and they are also doing the science to promote a preconceived policy. I am a scientist but not one who trusts ‘science’ as my default position anymore. The goodwill that once was possessed by science has been all used up. Used car salesmen have a lot of company these days.

    • Hi Griff. Are you still changing your user name and email in order to look like multiple posters?

  12. The sorry state of “Science”. I wonder if there also isn’t a financial motive here somewhere. I have to believe that a course of treatment with HCQ is 1, 10,000th the cost of Remdesivir. Plus who needs an expensive vaccine if the disease is easily and cheaply treated with HCQ.

    • Who needs expensive treatment if Vitamin D, Zinc and a humidifier keeps you from even needing cold meds?

      What’s the death rate at now globally… 0.0011%? Last I checked back in April is is 1 in 10 million per month. *(may 2 in 10, june 3 in 10 etc)

      I had it in November, January and April, I think I caught it momentarily last week. I have immunosuppressive asthma and *literally catch everything*… I make sure my nutrition is RIGHT, not trendy.

      How many dead in NYC were eating Tumeric and drinking Aloe.

    • But that doesn’t explain the unbridled, unremitting hatred expressed by some in the leftist media, since they have no financial stake in which treatment prevails. To find the answer to that you have to look at the reward-seeking behavior of people at the two extremes of the self-esteem spectrum – namely, the narcissistic bully and the self-loathing.

      • 1. If HCQ + Zn early treatment works to stop Covid-19, Trump will be proven correct.
        2. If proven correct Trump will never let the MSM or the left forget it and will campaign on the fact that he was right and the libs were wrong.
        3. Trump will likely be reelected.
        4. Therefore, HQC cannot be found to be effective no matter what. It is far more important to keep Trump from winning than to potentially save the lives of a few old sick people.

        Covid-19 has already wiped out the Trump’s economy and jobs advantage in this election cycle. An effective treatment early could bring back both before the election. Covid must be kept going at least until November.

        • It hasn’t wiped out the US Markets. Nasdaq closing in on its record high.

          A vote for Biden will cost people 30% of their 401ks so you can bet that the sufferers from Chronic Virtue-Signaling Disorder will be voting for Trump and telling everyone they voted for Biden.

          Comedy Gold.

          • “A vote for Biden will cost people 30% of their 401ks”

            A vote for Biden would also cost people their freedoms. Biden was part of the last administration. You know, the one that tried to undermine the U.S. Constitution by interfering in the 2016 presidential elections.

            Biden and the Democrats have already proven themselves to be criminals with their sedition during and after Trump’s election. Why would anyone want to be governed by criminals like these?

        • Trump proven correct, how? Prior to taking HCQ, Trump never endorsed, promoted or or suggested it, he said maybe HCQ will work, maybe it won’t.

          The media had a different spin. Everyone has access to the video but chose to report the spin, instead.

          • “Prior to taking HCQ, Trump never endorsed, promoted or or suggested it, he said maybe HCQ will work, maybe it won’t.”

            Wrong—he said it might well be a miracle cure.

  13. I’ll just put this out there, Surgisphere is made up of 5 people, one of whom has worked for the Clintons. Take it to the bank.

    • There could be a connection. HCQ and CQ are cheap and nobody’s going to make a ton of money off them. There is every motivation for the makers of Remdesivir to say that those other drugs are dangerous and don’t work.

      It may be like the rat catcher accusing cats of being in cahoots with the devil. Plus ça change …

      Maybe I’m too cynical but I wouldn’t be surprised …

  14. I recall an article that claimed HCQ worked if taken early enough, back in late March/early April. It was retracted as it was not peer reviewed, although it did contain great detail about HOW the HCQ, Zinc and Antibiotic worked at a cellular level. Then we had Dr Raoult Didier’s reports from Marseilles`on his success in using HCQ/Zinc/antibiotic to treat those suffering the early stages of WuFlu. There was the disastrous clinical ‘trial’ of, I believe, elderly patients in a Vet’s hospital, where only HCQ was administered, with large loss of life.
    It is certainly worrying that state medical officers and/or governors practically forbade doctors to even try HCQ, despite the (largely discounted) evidence from the frontline medical staff that it DID work in a large majority of cases. But just as WuFlu appears to disproportionately affect those with darker skins living in Northern latitudes, so too is the HCQ cocktail not an appropriate treatment for those whose families originate in countries where malaria is or has been endemic, according to a German (medical) doctor.

    https://multipolar-magazin.de/artikel/covid-19-a-case-for-medical-detectives

    (Apologies for the lack of hyperlink)

    • Interesting hypothesis: immigrants and Italians with G6PD deficiency died because they were prescribed hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid-19(84), but were not tested for G6PD deficiency.

      • I think another possibility also needs to be considered in cases with high immigrant mortality. Many immigrants have latent TB brought with them from their home countries where TB is endemic. Stresses to the immune system can activate latent TB, and the symptoms are almost identical to Covid-19(84). Not testing for TB puts patients at risk for wrong treatments. For example, a Chinese girl with tuberculous pneumonia was wrongly diagnosed with SARS during that outbreak, and was treated with antiviral drugs that damaged her liver and did nothing to treat her disease.

    • I read the article – thanks for the link, Seamus, and here is my summary:
      Dr. Wodarg makes an impressive case for the following:
      1) 20% – 30% of the population, mostly males, in some regions of Africa have evolved a “G6PD enzyme deficiency” which makes them resistant to malaria (a huge benefit in some regions).
      2) However this enzyme deficiency can be life-threatening if those persons eat certain foods or take innocuous drugs such as Aspirin, Vitamin K, or Chloroquin.
      3) Dr. Wodarg found no evidence that Covid-19 patients were being tested for G6PD deficiency.
      4) Thus, the reported disproportionate vulnerability of males and African Americans to Covid may be partially due to G6PD deficiency.
      5) Thus: test for G6PD deficiency and adjust treatment accordingly.
      6) Also: testing for G6PD is important before prescribing HCQ. This should make trial results for HCQ even better.
      Brilliant
      Brilliant.

      • Dr. Wodarg is no well seen here in Germany by some scientists, because he outed himself as “Corona-Sceptic.” Not that he was wrong, but he didn’t follow the narrative 😀
        Even Rahmstorf thaught to have to write a blogpost about “Denial of science in the times of Corona” because of a German Video he posted.
        But, chapeau, Rahmstorf was strongly critisised even by his usual lickspittles !
        https://scilogs.spektrum.de/klimalounge/wissenschaftsleugnung-in-zeiten-von-corona/

      • I couldn’t make it through Wodarg’s article – he sounded crazy to me. Also, African Americans in the US armed forces have been taking chloroquines as long as whites, hispanics, etc. There are no studies indicating HCQ related mortality in US servicemen and women* . I imagine that quite a few black Africans have taken and are currently taking HCQ for malaria.

        A far better hypothesis for high levels of mortality in people with dark skin is vitamin D deficiency – and there is data supportive of this hypothesis (search YouTube for some decent explanations or google for the papers).

        * that first anti-HCQ for Wuhan hit piece using veterans seems to have been removed – but the study was garbage with no actual measurement of when, how much, or how long chloroquines were used

        • It was a records review, and the civil servant (read left leaning) medical personnel at the VA did not administer HCQ until the patients were in ICU on ventilator, did not supplement with zinc, and some got a z-pac. Again, the VA with a nearly malpractice disregard for their patients. Of course even with HCQ and zinc, some patients are still going to succumb. One of the facts of medicine is some patients die regardless of the quality of care.

          • Yes, the patients who were not given HCQ were most likely not as seriously ill, so there is an enormous bias in comparing death rates.

  15. Risking people’s lives for political gain is egregious. The left simply does not care how many people die as long as they can get more votes.

  16. HCQ is an ionophore that will pass Zn2+ through a cell wall into the cell. Zn2++ stops the cell from replicating the CV-19 RNA. This basically implies it would best be used at early onset to keep the number of CV-19 virus particles down in a patient allowing the patient time to develop antibodies to actually attack and eradicate the disease.

    It isn’t a cure, it’s a delaying tactic. Using HCQ without additional Zn defeats it’s purpose and using it later in the disease may not have much effect.. but using it early most likely will have a major impact.

    What’s so hard to understand about it’s benefit and how it should be used?

    https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176

    • What’s so hard to understand about it’s benefit and how it should be used?

      It’s only hard if you are under mind control, and/or have TDS.

      This knowledge would save lives… and adding quercetin and green tea extract are Zn ionophores which will provide lots of benefits with no downside… prevent the spreading this information and the information you posted is malfeasance.

      • PS: rbabcock, I trust my response was read as a sarc/ but full endorsement your post’s sentiments.

    • I totally agree.

      And here is evidence that HCQ plus zinc sulfate is a cure for covid if given when symptoms appear.

      The person that treated 700 of his patients is an Orthodox jew. He would no rather lie about HCQ and Zinc Sulfate’s such, than he would convert to another faith.

      This is a link to the interview of the Jewish doctor who used Zinc sulfate plus Hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin to treat 700 covid patients, who were sick and showing symptoms, with only one death.

      The one person who died stop treatment. None of the 699 patients went to the ICU. That is close to a cure for covid.

      https://techstartups.com/2020/04/03/updates-from-dr-vladimir-zelenko-now-treated-700-coronavirus-patients-with-99-9-success-rate-using-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-sulfate-and-z-pak-1-outpatient-died-after-not-following-protocol-exclusi/

      • Tried the link, got the message: this video has been removed for violating YouTube’s Terms of Service. How sinister is that?

      • @William Astley
        Meaningless article without confounding factors like age, obesity, cardiovascular and so on.

        I could also have a rate of 100% without medication if all my patients are healthy, lean and <40y. No problem.

      • “The person that treated 700 of his patients is an Orthodox jew. He would no rather lie about HCQ and Zinc Sulfate’s such, than he would convert to another faith.”

        sorry he has not posted any data for his study.

        not randomized
        not blinded
        no data

    • Zn: red meat unprocessed 225g (8oz)gives almost a days needs. Dark chocolate is high in Zn. Shimp, shellfish, crab are good sources, Nuts, seeds, are fair sources, dairy, eggs, potatoes, legumes modest sources. All in all, its easy to have a normal diet and get the Zn you need.

      Don’t let the marxbrothers take away your beef!

  17. The point is that the leftist media have now used the ‘study’ for their Trump-hating headline and the same media will ensure that any later revision to the study won’t see the light of day.

    • Amazingly the Guardian has run an article calling the study a scam. They rip into Surgisphere and its founder pretty mercilessly. It won’t get the MSM coverage of the original Lancet publication, but it at least provided a link I could send to folks who sent me links to the Lancet article to prove I was stupid.

  18. I can’t comment on the data issues. My problem is with the statistical analysis. The Cox Proportional HR estimation left out ventilator use. As we now know, ventilator use was/is a death sentence. The authors did not include ventilator use as a variable in calculating the hazard ratio. This is a big mistake. The HCQ cohort had almost #X use of ventilators. My guess is that the author’s had a goal in mind in doing the statistics. They wanted to show HCQ caused more deaths. By omitting ventilator use in the HR calculation, the effect was picked up by HCQ. This is a classic omitted variable problem. How this made it by reviewers is beyond me. I’m not saying that the data isn’t bad. It might be. However, my guess is that if the statistical analysis had been done correctly, HCQ would not have had any excess deaths associated with its use. The paper was shlock just based on the statistical analysis

  19. I still cannot understand why a study hasn’t been conducted to see what is the incidence of Covid 19 in users of HQC in the general population. Whilst it wouldn’t have the status of a clinical trial it would give and indication whether people who used HQC for other conditions have developed some immunity from getting the virus. There must be millions of regular users of the drug pre Covid who can provide such information.

    • There was a statistical analysis in Italy that found only a few SARS-2 infections among 10s of thousands of people taking HCQ for lupus and/or RA.

  20. The telegraph: “Architect of Sweden’s coronavirus strategy regrets not imposing tougher lockdown
    Sweden’s coronavirus strategy, which is much less restrictive than that of any other developed country, has received enormous attention globally in recent months.
    Sweden’s death rate, at 443 per million inhabitants, is now 10 times that of Norway, four times that of Denmark, in line with that of France and slowly catching up with that of Italy.”
    http://www.vukcevic.co.uk/EuropeCV.htm
    “Former head of MI6 Sir Richard Dearlove said he had seen an “important” new scientific report suggesting the virus did not emerge naturally but was man-made by Chinese scientists.
    Sir Richard, who was the head of MI6 between 1999 and 2004, cited startling new peer-reviewed research produced by Professor Angus Dalgleish, of St George’s Hospital at the University of London, and the Norwegian virologist Birger Sorensen.”

  21. The NEJM article had nothing to do with hydroxychloroquine or Chloroquine. It was strictly looking at ACE inhibitors and angiotensin receptor blockers in the COVID-19 outcomes.

    The Lancet paper was junk to begin with because they lumped HCQ use together with Chloroquine use. Clinicians universally agree that chloroquine use and heart arrhythmias were previously known to be associated and thus presented a much greater risk in their use in patients with CVD, diabetes, hypertension, etc.

  22. The research, by US-based company Surgisphere, began to unravel in recent weeks as experts noticed red flags and questioned the credulity of its data-gathering and reporting. The Lancet journal issued an “expression of concern” over the study on Wednesday.

    A Guardian investigation found that Surgisphere’s employees “have little or no data or scientific background,” with one appearing to be a sci-fi author and fantasy artist. The firm’s chief executive Sapan Desai has been named in three medical malpractice suits, the outlet said.

    https://www.rt.com/news/490668-who-hydroxychloroquine-trials-resume-coronavirus/

  23. Bizarre age we live in, where an entire FIELD is hijacked in order to discredit [a civilization]–to the point of killing people.

    The fruits of consensus climatology since 1988.

    • Pat: yeah, my 80 some yr old dad has finally realized might be best if the dumb are dealt with by derwinagain models even though hes loved the puppet masters the whole time…hes beginning to see that bright light

  24. Take a look at the background for Surgisphere exposed by the Guardian :
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine
    CEO of Surgisphere is a Sapan Desai :
    This what the Guardian says about him, and his defence of himself:
    -“‘The peak of human evolution’
    An examination of Desai’s background found that the vascular surgeon has been named in three medical malpractice suits in the US, two of them filed in November 2019. In one case, a lawsuit filed by a patient, Joseph Vitagliano, accused Desai and Northwest Community Hospital in Illinois, where he worked until recently, of being “careless and negligent”, leading to permanent damage following surgery.
    Northwest Community Hospital confirmed that Desai had been employed there since June 2016 but had voluntarily resigned on 10 February 2020 “for personal reasons”.
    “Dr Desai’s clinical privileges with NCH were not suspended, revoked or otherwise limited by NCH,” a spokeswoman said. The hospital declined to comment on the malpractice suits. Desai said in the interview with the Scientist that he deemed any lawsuit against him to be “unfounded”.
    ……
    “Desai’s now-deleted Wikipedia page said he held a doctorate in law and a PhD in anatomy and cell biology, as well as his medical qualifications. A biography of Desai on a brochure for an international medical conference says he has held multiple physician leadership roles in clinical practice, and that he is “a certified lean six sigma master black belt”.
    It is not the first time Desai has launched projects with ambitious claims. In 2008, he launched a crowdfunding campaign on the website indiegogo promoting a “next generation human augmentation device” called Neurodynamics Flow, which he said “can help you achieve what you never thought was possible”.
    “With its sophisticated programming, optimal neural induction points, and tried and true results, Neurodynamics Flow allows you to rise to the peak of human evolution,” the description said. The device raised a few hundred dollars, and never eventuated.”-

    With such people representing those that national leaders claim are the scientists leading the fight against Wuhan flu and advising the policies it is no wonder so many have died and our economies are in tatters.
    In the UK we now have the distinction of the worst death rate / capita in the world and no sign of it declining significantly, unlike all our european neighbours. We are reaping the rewards of getting rid of properly trained scientists and engineers as leaders of public science councils and replacing them with political place men and women.

  25. The Lancet has now earned a reputation for publishing dodgy medical research that results in people making deadly decisions. Some of you may not remember this: Lancet retracts Wakefield’s MMR paper https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(97)11096-0/fulltext

    Why they have not been sued for reckless endangerment for not properly vetting what they publish is surprising. Both this and the Wakefield research seem to have been shown untrustworthy with very little effort, yet it took The Lancet a full decade to retract the Wakefield paper.

    • Wakefield’s paper was problematic with a few ethical issues, but it was never proven to be fraudulent. It was treated as such by the Establishment; big diff.

      • exactly Wakefields actual rsult and what it promoted as were vastly differing
        but the media and the sheepies believing em never DO read the actual trials data.
        all too hard
        and I really AM waiting for the day he get the apologies he deserves for linking gut bacteria to IQ and cognition problems
        almost monthly we see more research proving gut bacteria and issues with parkinsons autism and a slew of other neuro diseases.
        minute absorbption of organophospahtes over decades as well as not so minute glyphosate etc all accumulate in bodies and afftect hormonal areas as well as gut and other functions.
        we ARE (affected by) what we eat basically.
        and what meds we take or get injected.
        heres a funny thing
        inhaled anaesthesias are found to be causing some nasty health problems
        so adults now get injectable forms wherever possible
        but
        kids get the gas still
        takes longer for their cancers etc to show up….

  26. I believe that HCQ is safe because if there were any chance at all that it was unsafe, there would be thousands of commercials on TV from Morgan&Morgan, Goldwater law firm or hundreds of others asking us to join a class action lawsuit. The fact that this isn’t happening shows that there is no case to be made.

    • Henry: That is a great link to illustrate the hate and ill reporting that comes from the WaPo. Thank you for pointing it out for us so we can flag it just in case we click on it by mistake.

      You can find poop as well as any fly… don’t let anyone tell you any different. OK?

      • Shooting the messenger doesn’t get rid of the message Mario. That study was a double blind on a large population of health care workers.

        • Henry: Evidently you did not understand the words I wrote, so let me clarify…

          Your reputation is consistent enough that we all know what to do with your endorsements without wasting precious time. So I thank you for that.

          Your posts do not have the effect you think they have, but they are entertaining (when I am in the mood for a laugh). That link you posted will get no click from me.
          And to be clear, I mean this with no sarcasm.

        • Again Henry: You’ve helped me not click those links either! I appreciate your consistency.

          • The Supporting Information says that they tested zinc and vitamin C as preventatives. But not as part of a treatment.

            Neither HCQ nor zinc were touted as preventatives. Rather, the controversy is whether they limit the course of the disease once one has gotten it.

          • Exactly. This was not a cogent study or test or of any value. It intentionally, tries to avoid saving lives or helping people since it intentionally avoids proper application. HCQ with Zn together work. Without Zn, it’s effects are mostly not allowed to happen. It’s worse than a bait and switch.

        • My impression is, that a ten year old empty battery is more able to distinguish between treatment and prevention as you pretend to be.

        • The drug was given for 5 days. The incubation period is up to 14 days. The people that developed the disease (after the 5 days) could have been infected before the trial started. The anecdotal evidence early on suggested that the drug in combination with zinc does not directly attack the virus (and therefore is no cure once you are infected) but enhances the immune system and therefore could be a prophylactic; that’s how it works against malaria infection. The reports do not mention zinc and do not mention the severity of disease of those that developed it compared to the control group, only that there were no death in either.

          Imho such a trial should at least take 2 weeks and possibly 4 before you can draw any conclusions.

          • “The anecdotal evidence early on suggested that the drug in combination with zinc does not directly attack the virus (and therefore is no cure once you are infected) but enhances the immune system and therefore could be a prophylactic; that’s how it works against malaria infection.”

            The French doctor who did the big HCQ study said patients who recieved HCQ cleared the Wuhan virus from their bodies in about six days. That would be close enough to a cure to me. 🙂 The less time the virus spends in the body, the better.

            One doctor in Dallas interviewed a few weeks ago said she was treating all her patients who had Wuhan virus with HCQ and she said all of them, from the sickest to the mildest cases were helped by the HCQ. She said she had some patients who made dramatic improvements in their condition in just a matter of hours after taking HCQ.

            Dr. Seigel, the Fox News Channel medical consultant says HCQ saved his 95-year-old father’s life after he was infected with Wuhan virus.

            There are too many doctors saying these same things about HCQ for it to be a figment of their imaginations or wishful thinking. They certainly cannot be reconciled with studies claiming no benefits.

    • What does that study mean by saying people who took HCQ “developed covid-19”? They tested positive? They developed symptoms? They ended up in ICU? I haven’t read anyone saying that HCQ prevents infection or symptoms. It supposedly prevents disease progression to the stage that requires hospitalization. That’s really all that matters. Is this another RCT that was poisoned by purposeful ambiguity?

      • You’ve put your finger on the central issue, icisil.

        HCQ is recommended for treatment. The NEJM paper is about prevention. It’s irrelevant.

      • The USA Today article says that the study shows HCQ doesn’t prevent infection. That’s a strawman because HCQ proponents aren’t claiming that HCQ prevents infections.

        • icsil, Trump started on it after some staff members tested positive, as a preventative. He was exactly the type of patient followed in this study.

          • Being infected or having symptoms is irrelevant. Progression to serious disease is the only thing that matters, and that is the real reason for taking HCQ prophylacticly, which this research did not study.

    • I’ve read the NEJM article. It looked at HCQ for prevention of Covid-19 infection, not its treatment.

      The issue surrounding HCQ is about treatment of the disease, a better outcome and an earlier recovery. It’s not about prevention.

      Touting the NEJM article as disproving anything relevant about the HCQ controversy is a false flag argument. A diversion.

      • Well Frank, please show us the double blind randomized study that shows that the drug works to “cure” the disease.

        • Not allowed to divert attention away from your failure, Henry.

          The NEJM article is irrelevant.

  27. Rick Wilson writes

    The first major review for my new book is in!

    EVERYTHING TRUMP TOUCHES DIES by Rick Wilson

    He is almost right… More like: everything and everybody that tries to hit Trump dies.

  28. Well, follow the money. There is none for big pharma in a long off patent generic plus zinc. So this now discredited sketchy fringe ‘sciency’ stuff was from the beginning an ill concealed industry supported disinformation initiative. A Wuhan version of Mann’s hockey stick.

    As posted previously, HCQ alone works by raising lysosomal pH, thus altering the ACE2 receptor subtly so the Wuhan spike protein 1 cannot bind as efficiently, preventing infection.. Adding zinc adds a second mechanism of action; HCQ is a zinc ionophore, and adding zinc to cytoplasm directly inhibits viral replication in epithelial cells. Double whammy on Wuhan. And the U Mn/McGill study results properly designed to prove same are due any day now.

    • This, Rud: “As posted previously, HCQ alone works by raising lysosomal pH, thus altering the ACE2 receptor subtly so the Wuhan spike protein 1 cannot bind as efficiently, preventing infection.. Adding zinc adds a second mechanism of action; HCQ is a zinc ionophore, and adding zinc to cytoplasm directly inhibits viral replication in epithelial cells. Double whammy on Wuhan.”

      is a well constructed, well packed and concise packet of useful information! Thank you.

      • Henry Pool: This was not a test to see if HCQ and Zn resulted in better outcomes. You have a severe level of comprehension deficit. It was a test to see if HCQ without Zn prevents people from exposure and that is not what advocates claim. It’s hard to talk with you because you’re level of cognizance is just too low.

        Disclaimer: I failed to follow my rule by deciding to check to see if you were being consistent. And you were! You have proven to be a consistent useful idiot, but only useful to ignorant people. Why do you make it so easy.

      • You can’t follow a thread, you can’t read comments, you don’t understand comments and arguments, so ir seems to be better to ignore your “comments” leading into empty space, as empty as the room between your ears.

    • Yeah, “big pharma” with allegedly all of the tools, power, and $$$ at their disposal…
      -went with a small ragtag team of incompetent dolts to generate false information to discredit HCQ
      -accidentally let them generate information that suggested the commonly-available and cheap ivermectin was effective at fighting COVID-19
      -let a large population of their biggest current and future customers die-off from COVID-19 – sacrificing a huge current and future guaranteed revenue stream – for the opportunity of developing some possible treatment or vaccine that may never even happen (or is developed by a competitor instead)

      Use some logic and reason when attempting to “follow the money.”

      • “-went with a small ragtag team of incompetent dolts to generate false information to discredit HCQ”

        Exactly, Big Pharma has competent fakers!

        “large population of their biggest current and future customers die-off from COVID-19”

        When did that happen?

        “for the opportunity of developing some possible treatment or vaccine that may never even happen (or is developed by a competitor instead)”

        “Maybe” is still better than “no”.

        And Big Pharma plays as a team.

    • Except Rud, HCQ damned well DOESN’T WORK….

      The University of Minnesota study is a double-blind randomized clinical control trial, considered the gold standard in medicine.

      Starting in mid-March, Boulware and his colleagues recruited 821 people in the US and Canada who had been exposed to Covid-19. Some were health care workers and others lived in the same house as someone with the virus. The median age was 40.

      About half the study subjects were assigned to take hydroxychloroquine for five days, and the other half were assigned to take a placebo, or a pill that does nothing. Neither the researchers nor the study subjects knew who was taking which drug.

      The researchers then monitored the study subjects for two weeks.

      In the end, it didn’t matter if they received the drug or not: about 12% of those taking hydroxychloroquine came down with symptoms of Covid-19, compared to about 14% of those taking the placebo, a difference that was not statistically significant.

      • DMac
        As has been pointed out endlessly, giving HCQ alone is useless, where it works it has to be paired with Zinc

        What I read on the McGill study is it just gave HCQ or a placebo

        Designed to fail, once again

        • Not only that, Pfk, the study was carried out over the internet, using self-reports of symptoms. The study physicians never met or examined the study subjects.

          Of the entire cohort of 113 who reported covid-like symptoms (over the internet) only 16 were confirmed by PCR to have the virus.

          The study clarified nothing.

          • Pat Frank
            If it means nothing then 1+1 = nothing as well.
            Maybe too small of a study, you will probably say, with only 800 subjects, only a few dozen infected, no deaths, over 2 countries to avoid TDS bias. You really think they gave out HCQ and didn’t test ? Too many asymptomatic infected for that…….so you need it to be inconclusive on how many thousand subjects subjects before you give up on this quack cure ?
            There are also a number of other studies stopped because their sample was small and HCQ was identifiably NOT any magic bullet. Maybe try a search on “chloroquine not effective” instead of “chloroquine effective” for a start.

          • DMacKenzie, you neglected to mention that the subjects were recruited over the internet and neither met, nor were examined by, the study physicians.

            You neglected to mention it was all self-reports of symptoms, again over the net.

            You neglected to mention that 97 of the 113 positives were assigned by inference, rather than by test.

            You neglected to mention that only 16 of the 113 positives were validated by PCR test to actually carry the virus.

            You neglected to recognize that HCQ is recommended for treatment, but not for prevention.

            Good job.

        • Pat,
          Always some reason, given too early, given too late, given without zinc, given without azithromycin, not given in the right quantities…..HCQ believers have to face reality. CNS, chicken noodle soup is equal to this stuff for beating a Coronavirus. Now if you want to change the PH of your blood to kill the malaria parasite, it is proven useful for that purpose.

          • DMac, always some reason to cite irrelevant papers as though they had bearing. They don’t. Your argument doesn’t.

            It’s also not unreasonable to require that proper conditions be detailed when conducting a test for efficacy. Do you disagree?

          • Pat,
            it’s only irrelevant because you don’t like the answers it gives. Come up with something better that shows it works. Read Didier’s paper, the 6 Azithromycin subjects all recovered. Lots of hospitals are getting 98% recoveries without zinc or HCQ. So his sample was too small to deserve the acclaim that HCQ received as a result of it. He even said so himself. But something like climate science, the press got hold of it and made it a miracle cure.

          • DMac, do you understand that prevention does not mean treatment?

            Is so obvious a distinction truly so difficult for you to grasp?

            It appears you wish the obvious flaws with that paper to be set aside because you like the answers it gives.

      • Self-reported and unverified exposure to coronavirus – RED FLAG!

        Drug protocol not following the “anecdotally” successful combination of HCQ and zinc – RED FLAG!

        Self-reported and unverified adherence even to the faulty drug protocol – RED FLAG!

        Self-reported and unverified subject outcomes – RED FLAG!

        These “scientists” need to go see their fellows over in the Climate “Science” building. They have at least learned to cover their garbage with enough dirt that it requires some digging to find the toxic landfills that are their “research.”

    • Rud, excellent comment.

      Re: “A Wuhan version of Mann’s hockey stick.” I see it somewhat differently.

      Every “study” seems to have deliberately missed the point, and then breathlessly released results to the ill-informed media, in artful misdirection of the truth. This was exactly the same as the multiple “investigations” after Climategate, which deliberately missed the point and reported meaningless results with the specific intention of hiding the facts. It is the politicized and illiterate media that makes the strategy effective.

  29. It is a tactic of liars to put you off the truth. Once the truth is dismissed as an option, everything else is based on a foundation of lies and half truth. This way, the liar/ scammer can fleece you of more money.
    Eventually, you pick an outright untruth, an inconsistency or it all just becomes too insane to believe-you just can’t buy it anymore. Something twigs-that penny drop moment of clarity. Then it dawns on you that the whole scenario was a crock and you got sucked in. You kick yourself for having believed so much rubbish.

    Hydroxychloroquine is the cure- staring us in the face, but those on the hustle that stand to make trillions from a vaccine as well as insidious control via verification procedures do not want us to use it. They scream blue murder to protect their scam from being uncovered-name calling, baseless smear, you’re a racist etc.

    Most WUWT readers would have cottoned on by now that COVID is a scamdemic, on par with the scam that has convinced many that the 3% of CO2 increase that is of human origin is going to make the world burn in flames and we must believe this without question and hand over hundreds of billions a year to the UN or the world will burn in flames.

  30. When it takes a month or two to find out that CNN Cuomo was on a concentrated form of quinine, from his wife, then you know something was up all along. CNN said it was no good, it didn’t work, it was dangerous, but wait oh yeah, our main guy is secretly taking a concentrated form of it.

    Now the lancet can’t be trusted either. Time for a name change, the lanceit.

  31. my first post covered the issues with this study and link I provided went more in depth and listed the issues.
    https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/03/hydroxychloroquine-does-not-prevent-covid-19-infection-in-people-who-have-been-exposed-study-says/

    researchers also counted patients who had symptoms consistent with disease, in part because testing wasn’t available.
    *****
    The study was conducted in an unusual way: over the internet, without patients being seen by study doctors.
    *****
    no chance of bad data there..

    and:

    Steven Nissen, a cardiologist and veteran clinical trialist at the Cleveland Clinic, was much harsher. The fact that patients self-reported their data and that one in five did not take all their doses of the study drug, as well as the study’s small size, made him less than confident that the study could entirely rule out that hydroxychloroquine had some preventative effect. He emphasized that more studies of the drug, which was widely prescribed during the initial months of the Covid-19 pandemic, have not been completed.

  32. I didn’t have any data to argue, but the mysterious way results could change so dramatically on the basis of one commercial(paid for) study that strongly countered what have been quite widespread successful uses of hydroxychoroquin was very suspicious.

    Just reading the summary conclusions was enough.

  33. The Deep State / Media / Left Wing (but I repeat myself) hates him with a passion. Every times he inhales, “he’s stealing oxygen from women, children and minorities.” Every time he exhales “his CO2 is contributing to the climate change devastation of women, children and minorities.” Now I’ll admit Trump’s crude and verbally challenged personality is is own worst enemy at timesand I cringe at his malapropisms and self promotion BUT I feel he’s the necessary purgative for the nation to puke up the Deep State ala The Exorcist.

    • Exactly. They’re terrified of another 4 years where his random access brain can and will be used to crucify some of them, and at random too.

      It couldn’t happen to a more wonderful cadre of taxpayer money thieves.

  34. HCQ with zinc has been proven by physicians in the field in hundreds of cases. Like every other medicine for every other disease, it’s more effective when given early instead of waiting until the patient is dying in the hospital.

    Tens of thousands of Americans have died and trillions of dollars of economic damage has been done because Trump haters wouldn’t allow a drug Trump recommended to be used. This has really been a sadly preventable disaster.

  35. Heres a thing and it isn’t hard… never mind HCQ or any other drug Remdesvir ets… the govmnt of whatever your local could … and pennies expense to the taxpayer… produce a dietary supplement pill containing vit c vit d vit b and their complex variants plus zinc and any other mineral supplement thought appropriate … and supply it free of charge to the entire population…. might work might not no harm nothing to loose get on with it!! watcha fink….

  36. not to worry:

    2 Jun: Daily Mail: Prof. Neil Ferguson whose grim warnings prompted Boris Johnson to order TOTAL LOCKDOWN admits Sweden may have suppressed Covid-19 to the same level but WITHOUT draconian measures
    by Connor Boyd
    Professor Neil Ferguson, of Imperial College London, revealed he had the ‘greatest respect’ for the Scandinavian nation, which has managed to suffer fewer deaths per capita than the UK.
    He made the comments at a House of Lords Science and Technology Committee today during his first public appearance since flouting stay at home rules to have secret trysts with his married mistress last month.
    The epidemiologist – dubbed Professor Lockdown – has come under fire for his modelling which predicted half a million Britons could die from Covid-19 and heavily influenced the UK’s decision to rush into a nationwide quarantine…

    The UK has a death rate of 575 people per million, while Sweden’s is significantly lower at 436 per million. As well as fewer deaths, Sweden’s GDP actually grew in the first quarter of 2020, suggesting it might avoid the worst of the economic fallout from the crisis…
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8379769/Professor-Lockdown-Neil-Ferguson-admits-greatest-respect-Sweden.html

    Neil is still essential:

    2 Jun: UK Telegraph: Prof Neil Ferguson still influencing Government’s coronavirus plan despite resigning for breaking lockdown rules
    On Tuesday, a witness revealed that Prof Ferguson is leading a team contributing to one of the most influential Sage sub-committees
    By Henry Bodkin and Anna Mikhailova
    Professor Neil Ferguson is still influencing the Government’s coronavirus response, despite having resigned his official position for breaking social distancing rules, it has emerged…

    However, on Tuesday a witness at the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee revealed that Prof Ferguson is leading a team contributing to one of the most influential Sage sub-committees.
    A government spokesman conceded that they still require his services…

    Giving evidence on Tuesday to the Lords committee, Dr Paul Birrell, from Cambridge University, said: “The Sage subgroup on which both Mark [Keeling] and I sit, SPI-M (Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling) has a further sub-group on forecasting. It’s about six or seven modelling teams, Matt Kelling and Neil Ferguson lead two of those teams.”

    A government spokesman said: “Professor Ferguson accepted he made a serious error of judgement and stepped back from his involvement in Sage.
    “Prof Ferguson and his group have directly fed into SPI-M meetings since the beginning of the Covid outbreak.
    “Since then he has not attended any Sage meetings.
    “His research group at Imperial College is one of the leading authorities in the world on epidemics and it is important that we continue to have access to their work and that of other expert groups.”…

    His forecasts predicted that, without a full lockdown, 500,000 people could die from Covid-19.
    He did not respond for a request to comment
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/02/prof-neil-ferguson-still-influencing-governments-coronavirus/

    • “admits Sweden may have suppressed Covid-19 to the same level”

      Also in the :Daily Mail today

      “Sweden admits it DID get it wrong on coronavirus: Expert behind country’s refusal to enter lockdown says he would have imposed tougher restrictions ‘if we knew what we know now'”

      and also

      Swedish PM launches inquiry into his country’s decision to avoid a coronavirus lockdown as country sees highest per capita death rate in the world “

      • That’s not enough to say “more Swedes died because they didn’t lockdown”.

        Worldwide economic collapses, hyper depressions, and hyper inflation can cause the morbidity and mortality on epic scales. We have watched the effects of same in microcosm for the past two decades in Venezuela where you can poke a stick in the ground anywhere in the south and strike oil. A Government managed collapse.

        Malnutrition is rampant. The average Venezuelan by 2017 had lost 24 pounds of body weight. Maternal death up 63%, child mortality up 30%. Resurgence of the “old diseases”, measles, diptheria, tuberculosis … Malaria increased ten fold.

        What if the rest of the Western World’s economies really collapse … like Venezuela ?

        Betcha a cheeseburger that the excess mortality in Sweden is also concentrated in the same cohort of “aged with pre-existing conditions”. (like me). That’s more survivable than where we are headed.

        • That’s not enough to say “more Swedes died because they didn’t lockdown”.

          add: 40,000 people died last year because the government didn’t lock down automobiles.

          • One can have the brain of an Einstein – and it does you little good when you are surrounded by morons.

            Sweden has saved itself from quite a few suicides, deaths from other diseases that they are still treating, and much of its local economy is still intact.

          • Nick Stokes says :

            “Sweden takes the big coronavirus risk for none of the economic gain”

            _________

            I’m not talking “economic gain”, but avoiding economic collapse and catastrophe which would result in morbidity and mortality orders of magnitude beyond what the CoVID virus can. It is akin to a patient dying of multi-system failure. Just when you think you have one organ salvaged two more go bad… then another. Again simply look at the Venezuelan collapse. The Chavistas figuratively wired the “building” of their nation with charges, then detonated them, convinced they were creating “21st Century Socialism”. We watched in slow motion as Venezuela was “dropped” like and old condo building. The only reason anything is left is because there is outside assistance.

            If the Western world’s economy goes down there will be no help … just jackals circling.

      • From Statista
        Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of June 3, 2020, by country:
        Country____confirmed cases__Pop (millions)___Deaths per million
        Belgium________9,505________11.42_________832.16
        United Kingdom_39,370_______66.49_________592.13
        Spain__________27,127_______46.72_________580.58
        Italy___________33,530_______60.43_________554.85
        Sweden_________4,468_______10.18_________438.76
        France_________28,900_______66.99_________431.43
        Netherlands_____5,967_______17.23__________346.29
        Ireland_________1,658_______4.85___________341.61
        United States__106,030_____327.17___________324.08
        Switzerland_____1,920_______8.52___________225.44
        Canada_________7,477_____37.06____________201.76

        That sentence, “Swedish PM launches inquiry into his country’s decision to avoid a coronavirus lockdown as country sees highest per capita death rate in the world” Is a headline in the June 3rd Daily Mail.

        But the June 3rd statistics show Sweden is number 5. Daily Mail got it wrong.

        Is the covid death rate the only metric worthy of measuring the impact and worthiness of locking down an entire population?

        • The Daily Mail is not famous for either precision or accuracy. The statistic they were actually referring to (I think) was
          “The country had 5.59 deaths for every million people on a rolling seven day average in the week to May 29”

          • That must be the understatement of the year.

            But the fact remains that Sweden without a lockdown has fewer per capita deaths than the UK on full lockdown. That at least should make one wonder what that full lockdown has actually achieved.

          • The Daily Mail is not famous for either precision or accuracy.

            Your publication of record then?

          • Not my preference. I followed commenter pat’s link.

            And preferred it as the source of evidence for your counter too.

      • “Sweden reports the number of people who die with COVID-19, not of COVID-19.

        “Even in a culturally and geographically similar country like Norway—celebrated for its low death rate—they do things differently. The Norwegians only count something as a COVID-19 death if a doctor concludes that someone was killed by the disease and decides to report it to the country’s public health authority.”

        https://reason.com/2020/04/17/in-sweden-will-voluntary-self-isolation-work-better-than-state-enforced-lockdowns-in-the-long-run/?utm_medium=email
        In Sweden, Will Voluntary Self-Isolation Work Better Than State-Enforced Lockdowns in the Long Run?
        There’s a lot of debate over the Swedish model of coronavirus response, but there are good reasons to think a Hippocratic approach to policy may pay off.
        JOHAN NORBERG | 4.17.2020 11:50 AM

  37. Leo Goldstein noted that nearly all Blue States in the Northeast US banned HCQ except for private patients and these states accounted for 60% of the deaths at the time of Leo’s article. A number of trials in hospitals there were discontinued.

    I wonder if the statistics would support legal action – hell, crimes against humanity! The “distributed denial of HCQ to covid patients” rests in the identical talking points and verbiage from press, and polits.

    • “Leo Goldstein noted that nearly all Blue States in the Northeast US banned HCQ except for private patients”

      This says private patients could still get HCQ even with a ban in effect in the Blue States. I’m wondering if President Trump’s “Right to Try” law he got passed not long ago to allow people more medical options, has anything to do with this?

  38. It is known that hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) inhibits conversion of 25(OH)- to 1,25(OH)2-vitamin D both in vitro and in patients with sarcoidosis. Vitamin D is steroid – it’s not a fatty acid like the other fat soluble vitamins. Over 220 body functions are critically dependent on vitamin D. I would make sure my vitamin D levels wasn’t at deficient level before the flu season starts – by checking them with a blood test. Although 1-2% of the world population died during the Spanish flu of 1918, 98% survived. And the Spanish flu never returned. Were those who survived genetically immune or did they just eat enough fish so their vitamin D levels where’ not at deficient levels ? Diet determines health.

  39. Pure science doesn’t seem to exist any longer. Politicians have co-opted “science” for their own political ideology. They seemed to think that “science” would clean up their political mess, but instead of doing that, they have sullied science.

    As for HCQ, using data from the Food and Drug Administration for 2004 through 2015, HealthGrove looked at the 150 drugs that are involved in the highest number of adverse reactions and ranked them by the percent of these reactions classified as serious. HCQ does not appear in the top 50….but Aspirin does (#44) as does Acetaminophen (#39)

  40. The advocated treatment was (is)

    HCQ + zinc sulfate + Zpac
    (+ D3 perhaps)

    given as soon as suspected and continued until recovery is complete. Starting after admission to hospital has a poor outcome; after ICU or or ventilator, it FAILS — according to the treatment advocates.

    ===
    If you are not testing that treatment protocol, that’s fine; don’t claim that you are, though. Starting it when the patient is admitted to ICU and then having the patient die is CONFIRMING the advocates’ description of their protocol, not refuting it.

    Is this that complicated?

    • Did McGill only use HCQ without the zinc and ZPAC
      What I read suggested just HCQ, meaning again it was designed to fail

      • They tested added zinc and vitamin C. The data are in the supporting information. But they only tested for prevention. Not for treatment.

  41. I have no idea whether HCQ works or not, although the evidence appears to me that it does if prescribed early enough. The fact that lupus and arthritis patients on the drug don’t seem to get Covid 19 when both groups are effectively immune suppressed also suggests some positive effect.

    One of the great things about America being the lawyer capital of the world is that somewhere there will be a smart lawyer with some good researchers who will look at this information, decide there is evidence for its efficacy, and sue the sh*t out of companies like Facebook because they have large cheque-books. All you have to do is select the plaintiff state correctly.

    And once the civil cases are out of the way, if there is any real evidence that this lead to the deaths of people then everyone associated with publishing misinformation should be charged with manslaughter. Especially the mainstream media!

    • *Nobody* that understands the several (at least 5) antiviral mechanisms of HCQ would expect that NO viral replication would occur.

      HCQ doesn’t slam any doors completely shut…but it should close the door far enough to reduce viral replication rates. A significant retardation of viral replication might *frequently* “buy enough time” for the immune system to eliminate the virus through antibody viral clearance before serious or fatal outcomes.

      Testing for rates of infection via PCR tests with HCQ is either ill advised…or devious. It tells us nothing useful.

      A reasonable test would ONLY look for viral loads or rates of hospitalization, ICU admissions, and fatalies…for those administered HCQ *early* in the course of the disease (hellish difficult to control for in a study) and when administered with or without zinc and with or without Azithromycin (or Doxycycline).

      No study designed to those MOST OBVIOUS STANDARDS has been concluded yet…for some reason.

    • To follow Quilter’s observation.

      In the UK it has been observed that Black, Asian, Middle Eastern and Ethnic (“BAME””) minorities have been much more likely to be infected with, and to die of, Covid 19 than white natives. This has been attributed to poverty and other forms of deprivation as well as to a greater propensity to suffer from diabetes, obesity and high blood pressure.

      It is known that C6OD (“favism” ) is endemic in a number of West African tribes and in many Middle Eastern (and Mediterranean) populations. However, no attempt seems to have been made to investigate the correlation between C6PD and Covid 19 in those admitted to hospital or those who have died from the virus.

      https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85929

      The ingestion of any form of quinine is known to be highly dangerous for those with G6PD and yet, as a relative of mine has found, it does not appear that several hospitals in England are even aware of its existence.

      I wonder if that is also true in the US where, for example, it is estimated that 10% of African Males suffer from the genetic variation.

      • One theory based on lack of vit D related to darker skin color relative to amount and angle of sun needed to allow UV B to needed for bare skin to manufacture D

  42. I received this recently:

    WELL, WELL, WELL!! Isn’t it just an interesting coincidence that Remdesivir is made by Gilead and is the “CURE” for COVID-19….and here’s where it gets interesting. China holds the patent on the drug through an agreement with Gilead’s drug patent sharing subsidiary branch called UNITAID, who has an office near Wuhan and you’ll never guess who are the main financial investors in UNITAID….none other than George Soros, Bill & Melinda Gates, and the W.H.O.. I know what you’re thinking! It’s just all a coincidence isn’t it? Oh, don’t let me forget the other coincidence that Gilead and UNITAID were financial supporters of Hillary Clinton. Oh, silly me I forgot one more coincidence, Fauci was the one authorizing millions to be sent to The Wuhan Institute of Virology specifically for the “study” of Coronaviruses……I sure am thankful it’s all just coincidences! Nothing to see here just keep moving along….WOW! No wonder Fauci slapped down hydroxychloroquine which has a 92% success rate…he was told to!!….

    The Best Coincidences are always found when you follow the money.

    Discuss

    • China holds the patent! Isn’t that lovely. I guess this shouldn’t be a surprise considering the world we live in.

  43. If Trump happened to say that Oxygen, Water, Carbs, Proteins, Fats, Vitamins C, D, B-complex, others, and certain minerals are critical to a healthy life, a certain sub-population might assiduously avoid all of them despite the peril of such a step. I guess it’s a good thing he hasn’t successfully weaponized his detractors’ contrarianism against them…yet.

    Until I read this article, I struggled to come up with a good example of the aphorism “Cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face”. Now I have an example.

  44. there was but one purpose!

    15 May: WaPo: Lancet editorial blasts Trump’s ‘inconsistent and incoherent’ coronavirus response
    by Derek Hawkins & John Wagner
    One of the world’s oldest and best-known medical journals Friday slammed President Trump’s “inconsistent and incoherent national response” to the novel coronavirus pandemic and accused the administration of relegating the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to a “nominal” role.

    The unsigned editorial from the Lancet concluded that Trump should be replaced.
    “Americans must put a president in the White House come January, 2021, who will understand that public health should not be guided by partisan politics,” said the journal, which was founded in Britain in 1823…
    Medical journals sometimes run signed editorials that take political stances, but rarely do publications with the Lancet’s influence use the full weight of their editorial boards to call for a president to be voted out of office…

    Lancet editor(-in-chief) Richard Horton has decried the British government’s response to the pandemic in editorials and public statements published under his name…
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/15/lancet-editorial-trump-administration-coronavirus-response/

    5 Oct 2019: The Lancet: Offline: Extinction or rebellion?
    by Richard Horton, Editor-in-chief, The Lancet
    (LINK ELSEVIER)
    An unprecedented social and political disruption is about to take place. Nothing like it will have been seen for a generation. The outcome could be transformational. Or it could be met with indifference. Remember the antiglobalisation protests in Genoa in 2001? Or the marches against the Iraq war in 2003? The outcomes of October, 2019, depend on the intensity of resistance. What part should health workers play in one of the greatest social movements of our time.

    The occasion before us is 2 weeks of non-violent direct political action, beginning on October 7. Billed as an “International Rebellion”, millions of people will gather in cities around the world. They will “continue to rebel against the world’s governments for their criminal inaction on the climate and ecological crisis”. Citizens are encouraged to take as much time off work as possible. Extinction Rebellion puts it like this: “Because time is running out. We’re almost at the point of no return. The governments are doing nothing. Businesses are doing nothing. The situation is urgent.” There are three demands—first, tell the truth; second, act now; third, go beyond politics to create a citizens’ assembly…

    The climate crisis is one of the greatest threats to the health of humanity today…
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)32260-3/fulltext

    as long as Horton keeps his position, The Lancet is politics, not science.

    • whooo whooo now isnt THAT interesting conflict and ideology?
      thanks for the background.

  45. 2 May: Al Arabiya: Reuters: Coronavirus: Lancet editor-in-chief hails China’s innovation of shelter hospitals
    Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of The Lancet medical journal, has hailed China for the concept of setting up temporary shelter hospitals in its fight against the coronavirus outbreak in the country, calling it a brilliant and innovative idea that the rest of the world should try to adopt.

    The prominent British medical journal, on April 18, published an article entitled, “Fangcang shelter hospitals: a novel concept for responding to public health emergencies.”
    The report was written by Wang Chen, president of the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences and vice-president of the Chinese Academy of Engineering and his team, discuss the idea of “Fangcang shelter hospitals” as a novel public health concept…
    https://english.alarabiya.net/en/coronavirus/2020/05/02/Coronavirus-Lancet-editor-in-chief-hails-China-s-innovation-of-shelter-hospitals

    Youtube: 6m46s: 1 May: CGTN: Richard Horton: We should work together with China fighting COVID-19
    Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of the prominent British medical journal The Lancet in an interview with CCTV on Friday, noting that the world should work together with Chinese authorities to understand the virus.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCnSEzRedGo

    2 May: Steerpike: from Spectator UK: Lancet editor’s Chinese propaganda
    Ever since the coronavirus first began to spread in the UK, one of the government’s staunchest critics has been the editor-in-chief of the Lancet, Richard Horton. In late March, he suggested that Matt Hancock and Boris Johnson were playing ‘roulette with the public’ and said on Question Time that the government’s response to the virus was a ‘national scandal’…

    But Mr S has spotted that Horton seems to be far more forgiving when it comes to other countries’ response to the virus. Yesterday, the Lancet chief appeared on the Chinese news show Xinwen Lianbo. The programme is produced by the state-owned broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV)…
    https://www.spectator.com.au/2020/05/lancet-editors-chinese-propaganda/

  46. What «in order to discredit an individual»? It’s same old: Big Pharma and conflict of interest.

    Douglas Waer @douglaswaer
    The next time you see the story about how #HCQ didn’t help in #C19 infections? Realize that one of the researchers got the study grant from Gilead…a pharma company trying to push their own patented (read: spendy) medication.

  47. No mention whatever of this farce in that other darling of the luvvies, the so-called Independent.

    • Ed Z: Good pick up! I notice here in US that NBC, ABC and CBS always lay off scandals at the other networks. Of course, they only run stories taken from NYT, so that helps them stay in line. But in our capitalist system, they are supposed to be rivals. Wonder why they act like allies? Allied against the rest of us!

      • The Leftwing Media Networks have turned into a Leftwing Propaganda organ.

        They have been this way for years, it just has ramped up to 11 in the era of Trump.

        You cannot take *anything* the Leftwing Media says at face value. There is a Leftwing agenda behind their every word.

  48. When the WHO shut down the studies, you knew it was a good sign that HCQ worked. We won’t know the truth until after the election.

    • Have you read the paper? They tested the effectiveness of the drug 4 days post exposure. That means 4 days after those who subsequently developed the disease were infected. The virus in those cases had established itself and it was already known that then the drug is of little use. What ought to be tested is whether participants when given HCQ from, say, 5 or 7 days before exposure are less likely to become infected, or not. That is not what was done.

      • What ought to be tested is whether participants when given HCQ from, say, 5 or 7 days before exposure are less likely to become infected, or not. That is not what was done.

        All the studies that claim HCQ works and are cited here on a regular basis didn’t use HQC that way either. HCQ was always given with the start of symptoms so even later as the NEJM study did.

    • Show everyone where the HCQ controversy is about prevention, Steve.

      Bet you can’t do it.

      Because it isn’t.

      The NEJM article is irrelevant.

      “anti science types” That’s pretty rich, coming from you.

    • The real cellular evidence for HCQ was very limited to begin with.

      There is a preprint of a retrospective study for Azi+HCQ +/-Zn:

      https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1.full.pdf+html

      Very important paragraph from the discussion:

      We do not know whether the observed added
      benefit of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin on mortality would have
      been seen in patients who took zinc sulfate alone or in combination with just one of
      those medications.

      and this one:

      The main finding of this study is that after adjusting for the timing of zinc therapy, we
      found that the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was
      found to associate with a decrease in mortality or transition to hospice among patients
      who did not require ICU level of care, but this association was not significant in patients
      who were treated in the ICU.

      It doesn’t help the sickest to survive at all.

      But anyway, I would like to see zinc alone cause there are a lot of plausible evidence-based mechanisms how it could help where for HCQ there are not that many.

      Though zinc also will be no wonder drug that prevents sufficient numbers of patients from overwhelming the health care system or lower the mortality rate to a level comparable to the flu. That is not what the pre-print numbers indicate.

      • and when “with zinc fails” you will say wrong amount of zinc.
        or you will say something else, maybe the virus mutated, blah blah blah

        • Given your adamant blindness to systematic measurement error, Steve, not to mention to instrumental limits of resolution, even if it were true that people quibble about zinc, you’d be in no ethical position to call them out for it.

          • Mosher is a smart guy, and I think he enjoys the banter. The following is a lot packed into a cynical statement. “and when “with zinc fails” you will say wrong amount of zinc. or you will say something else, maybe the virus mutated, blah blah blah”

            Any study that uses Zn and are run by doctors or scientists who want to perform a legitimate test, will use a form of Zn which absorbs well enough (HCQ will help it absorb) and will load the body up so that the effects can be put to test.

            Mosher: Please allow for the fact that critics /skeptics should be critical of problems with a study. You assume that people all have a religious form of discourse, and do not want to know truth. We need you to be helpful, not fight good discussion.

          • Well Mosher is a part of the history of WUWT and hopefully a permanent fixture. He makes my head hurt sometimes, and that’s a good thing.

          • Gotcha Mario.

            Now, when you say he “makes my head hurt sometimes,” I assume you mean because of the addition to the conversation of an intellectually stimulating argument or point, e.g., something that makes you think.

            Just curious, when was the last time your head got hurt from Herr Mosher? As for me, I remember the good ‘ole days . . .

          • Most recent was when we discussed China/Korea WuFlu and tracing, alerting and general awareness of how the virus can be mitigated with enhanced surveillance.

            Previous to that it was surrounding krigging and other interpolation methods to torture the results to give you what BEST temp/climate reconstruction.

          • There were more examples and I was quite harsh towards him re: the BEST study several years ago… I am of the belief that bad data cannot be made better or best by “fixing” it to cover large expanses of unmeasured areas of the globe. The thing is, he is directly involved in some high profile business surrounding the climate and sciences we are all interested in. So I certainly want to hear him out.

          • Hey he’s had interesting things to say before. Like I said, I remember the good ‘ole days.

            Lately, however, both he and Stokes are nothing but clownish facades of what they have been.

            Or so it seems to me.

          • Understandable. I think the problem is communication. There is science and double blind studies etc… and then there is pragmatic evidence which will save lives instead of waiting until it’s too late for science to grant us permission to save lives. The problem is that science is funded through political hate groups… so that leaves science as an unpragmatic solution. Then we argue whether science is valid… so messy!

          • I think the problem is communication.

            Agreed. Communication without arrogance would be good:

            https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/05/07/through-a-glass-weekly/#comment-2989623

            And communication trotted out as truth when it’s an unexamined belief would be good:

            https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/06/03/nevermind-maybe-hcq-not-so-bad/#comment-3008927

            Especially since everyone else is a “little b*tch” when they do the same thing.

            Hypocrisy turns me into a troll. It’s just too much fun to resist tossing the offender about the intellectual room like a rag doll. And even more so when their supposed to be the best and the brightest.

            It’s one my many faults.

          • Yes, I think there is too much confirmation bias and when enough energy is put into putting forth biased so called science, the information believed is often wrong… and in many cases the outcomes are dangerous e.g.

            I conclude that people should be given HCQ and Zn during this WuFlu thing. Since there is extremely low risk of harm and high certainty of benefit, this should be offered by doc’, at first signs of cold unless people are in low risk, already have been taking vit D supplementation and know about quercetin and Zn and are not deficient in these nutrient.

            Strong statements that proffer HCQ and Zn do not work and are dangerous should be countered strongly. Thank goodness for people like you and others here, I say.

          • One more thing… and I say this carefully. There is a difference between mis-guided and mal-guided. Add to that the plethora of useful idiots, we need to counter the bad information for the sake of goodness.

          • There is a difference between mis-guided and mal-guided.

            Agreed.

            So what’s your theory? Who’s who?

          • Who’s who? People like Henry Pool are certainly misguided… and it’s beginning to appear that he is mal-guided. Being human, I am open to the possibility that I am wrong.

          • I have gone on record and believe the issues relate to talking past each other… It’s the science vs non science understanding of technical issues. They are not mutually exclusive, but treated as such, and then arguments ensue.

            I do not think Steven Mosher wants bad things.

          • It’s the science vs non science understanding of technical issues.

            Well I think it’s much less important than that Mario.

            I think the available observational evidence suggests that “Mosher,” at least for now, has turned into the same arrogant “little b*tch” he accuses others of being.

            But that’s just me.

        • and when “with zinc fails” you will say . . . or you will say something else . . . blah blah blah

          Why doesn’t the head honcho of the flying frog brigade uncontradict himself and “shut up” until the data’s in, i.e., until the commenter has actually said something?

          Ribbit?

          • Hi Sycomputing:
            It’s the science vs non science understanding of technical issues.

            Well I think it’s much less important than that Mario.

            I think the available observational evidence suggests that “Mosher,” at least for now, has turned into the same arrogant “little b*tch” he accuses others of being.
            ____________________________
            I think I understand… 🙂

            But that’s just me.

    • Mr. Mosher: You posted the link above, with no comment. Your silence was the real ‘gold standard”, because your comment simply serves to manifest your TDS. We didn’t have to wait until after your comment to see the attack of the anti-science type. If you make no comment, you won’t prove Mark Twain’s adage.

  49. I would be very interested in a study of zinc sulfate alone.

    The very limited cellular data of HCQ being a zinc ionophore did not convince me. Looked more like a vATPase inhibitor thereby trapping zinc in lysosomes like bafilomycin A does and therefore not beneficial as zinc should be in the cytoplasm.

    But zinc has a lot of potential beneficial roles in the described disease mechanisms and the risk factor groups are known to suffer from zinc deficiency.

    Not even mentioning that zinc is the only known somewhat working drug in common cold and influenza when taking early. But time and dosage are very important there and too much zinc can cause harms as well.

  50. http://joannenova.com.au/2020/05/hydroxychloroquine-lancet-study-of-96000-covid-patients-ignores-zinc-wasnt-randomized-has-12-death-rate/
    Hydroxychloroquine Lancet study of 96,000 Covid patients ignores Zinc, wasn’t randomized, has 12% death rate

    A new study came out last night in the Lancet which is being used to call for the end of doctors using Choloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid patients without them being enrolled in a clinical trial. Some of the claims about “no chance of any benefit” seem a bit premature given the limits of this kind of study:

    Superficially, it looks large and comprehensive but there are three obvious problems with it –

    1. It ignores zinc entirely. There is not even a mention of the essential mineral, despite Chloroquine being a well known zinc ionophone (something that pumps a mineral across a cell membrane) and intracellular zinc being identified as a useful anti-viral.

    2. It’s not randomized. If doctors are prescribing these drugs to sicker patients or patients with a certain (unknown) genetic risk factor that selection bias (there we go again) could neutralize the entire result. We just don’t know.

    3. These were sick people. The total mortality in this whole group was almost 12%. This trial tells us nothing about using these drugs as preventative measures in mild or moderate cases. It doesn’t tell us whether people had symptoms for a week before getting to hospital — and presumably if people saw a doctor early on, used HCQ and zinc, and then didn’t go to hospital at all (because they recovered) then they won’t be counted at all.

    So this trial successfully filters and removes the success stories (whatever they are) from early HCQ treatment.

    Even Donald Trump knows that HCQ is meant to be used with Zinc, so it is surprising that the medical researchers did not even mention it. Or in this politicized new world of medicine, perhaps it isn’t?

  51. From the article: “As noted previously by Leo Goldstein, there has been a coordinated attempt by institutional press and academia to discredit the use of Hydroxychloroquine.”

    It is amazing the lengths the radical Left will go to in order to try to undermine Trump, and they are in all the professions including the medical profession, and now we see even some in the medical profession are willing to distort the truth for political purposes.

    You can’t count on anyone on the Left being honest with you.

  52. “Bizarre age we live in, where an entire FIELD is hijacked in order to discredit an individual–to the point of killing people.”
    They have to be Turing’s – and someone, who is not , needs to find a good way to distinguish them from us.
    The killers themselves wrote – Are we human or are we dencer…

  53. There is a trend developing of big corporate interests and the left’s interests intersecting and finding common cause.

    As Michael Moore and Jeff Gibbs exposed in “Planet of the Humans”, the renewable scam has proved lucrative for big business.

    Now the campaign against the drug that has been widely taken for a century but now suddenly turns out to be dangerous, HCQ, unites the left with big pharma. The left are overwhelmed by inchoate rage against a drug which bad-orange-man recommended for none but tribal reasons. Big pharma are similarly innately hostile to any off patent drug because … it’s off patent.

    So once again the left and big business are in bed together over a politicised issue, the good but suddenly bad antimalarial drug HCQ.

  54. NEWS FLASH: Both Lancet and NEJM have retracted the studies based on the Surgisphere supposed data base. Surgisphere refused to provide a copy of the data, contracts and ISO Quality Audit report to the independent investigators. Admirably (perhaps) the co-authors called for the retractions.

    Question – Will anyone investigate Surgisphere and Sapan Desia for fraud?

    • “Steve Grant
      June 5, 2020 at 12:36 am

      “I spent three hours today prior to the retractions of the studies trying to verify things. I called The company that supplied the data, Surgisphere, and found out that the phone number listed on their website was a paid offsite receptionist service. I then had a friend visit the address listed on the website and he found out that it was a front to provide a mailing address for multiple corporations and in fact the company had no offices there. I then called the largest electronic medical record Company in America, a company that would’ve had to be involved in such a large database. They told me categorically that they did no business with Surgisphere. So in three hours time I was able to prove the company basically did not exist and all their data was made up. Why couldn’t the authors of the study have done the same ?”

      https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-covid-19-paper-that-raised-safety-concerns-about-malaria-drugs/?fbclid=IwAR2wsTNW_FSedmTkhvWZoQiEfTj3A3BvDrSWSft9puJJNEeOYem-AJcQNWs

  55. Pat,
    it’s only irrelevant because you don’t like the answers it gives. Come up with something better that shows it works. Read Didier’s paper, the 6 Azithromycin subjects all recovered. Lots of hospitals are getting 98% recoveries without zinc or HCQ. So his sample was too small to deserve the acclaim that HCQ received as a result of it. He even said so himself. But something like climate science, the press got hold of it and made it a miracle cure.

  56. DMac, do you understand that prevention does not mean treatment?

    Is so obvious a distinction truly so difficult for you to grasp?

    It appears you wish to set aside the obvious flaws with that paper because you like the answers it gives.

  57. Positive study or negative studies were never an issue. There could not be a treatment that was effective at any level. Allowing President Trump to have that possibility going into re-election was never going to be allowed.

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