Summary
On March 19, at a White House briefing, President Trump “touted” chloroquine (hydroxychloroquine is chloroquine metabolite) for possible use against COVID-19. The very next day, a media operation was launched to deny this treatment to the public. Several fake news outlets published articles, saying things like this (NYT, March 20):
Trump’s Embrace of Unproven Drugs to Treat Coronavirus Defies Science
Doctors and patients also worry that the president’s rosy outlook for the treatments will exacerbate shortages of old malaria drugs relied on by patients with lupus and other debilitating conditions.
Referring to this as a media operation is appropriate because multiple outlets repeated the same false talking points. At that time
- The use of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 already had scientific support, although not to the level required for FDA approval of a new drug; but HCQ was already approved.
- The fact that hospitals had already been increasing their supply of HCQ and CQ before President’s briefing was an additional indication that medical professionals believed in the drugs’ usefulness against COVID-19.
- There were no shortages of HCQ or CQ for lupus & RA patients at that time.
- Multiple pharma companies announced an increase in HCQ manufacturing and substantial donations of HCQ.
- Even without these increases, the HCQ amounts required for COVID-19 patients were too small to impact the supply for other users.
This false alarm had all the behavioral characteristics of the Democrat-Socialist operatives: pitting groups of citizens against each other, sowing fear and division, and hoping that the conflict would damage President Trump. In this case, they incited lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients against current and future COVID-19 victims. Google, Facebook, Twitter, and Microsoft support the fake new media financially, send web traffic to them, and endorse them to some extent. Amplified by Big Tech, the announcement of HCQ shortage caused a vicious spiral: panic buying by lupus patients, which led to actual shortages, which amplified the panic buying and so on. Then the blame was directed at COVID-19 patients and their physicians prescribing HCQ for them.
Consequences of the anti-HCQ Media Operation
The situation was aggravated by actions of some state governments, which started restricting access to HCQ for COVID-19 victims. The Governor of New York outright denied HCQ to COVID-19 victims, except for inpatient treatment and clinical studies. Physicians felt pressured to postpone HCQ treatment for COVID-19 patients. Instead of beginning HCQ treatment as early as possible, they postponed its use the late stages of the disease.
Late treatment with HCQ was frequently used as compassionate care for the most desperate causes. Delaware’s HCQ policy illustrates this thinking in late March: “This drug is used in very limited instances for very critically ill patients with COVID-19, in a clinical setting.” This led to statistics in which use of HCQ was correlated with worse outcomes. Bad actors exploited the correlation-as-causation fallacy to advocate against HCQ.
Apparently, in the early April the medical establishment in the North East (inclusive of NY, NJ, MA, CT, PA, MD, and DC) decided against the use of HCQ as a COVID-19 treatment. Coincidentally or not, this area became the main COVID-19 death cluster, responsible for more than 60% of the US COVID-19 deaths.
Why shortages were not caused by COVID-19 use
The HCQ shortages were not and could not be caused by the drug’s demand as a COVID-19 treatment. HCQ is a prescription drug taken regularly by 1.5-2 million people, at approximately the same doses used for COVID-19. The majority of those taking the drug are lupus patients (there are 1.5M lupus patients in the US, and most of them are on HCQ), followed by rheumatoid arthritis patients (there are 1.3M RA patients). HCQ is manufactured by dozens of companies in the US and abroad in standard 200 mg HCQ sulphate tablets. An estimated 20-30 million HCQ tablets are purchased weekly.
An HCQ-based treatment course for COVID-19 is 5-7 days and requires only 10-15 tablets. On March 21, there were only 24,000 people who had tested positive for COVID-19. Most of them did not need HCQ and could not find a doctor who would prescribe it, anyway. Even if a quarter of them bought 15 tablets each, that would only amount to 90,000 tablets – a drop in the ocean of HCQ supplies. Even if we multiply that number by ten – to include those who were not tested, hypochondriacs, and people who would need it within a couple of weeks – it is still less than one million. Double that number to incorporate lack of knowledge about treatment time and some people using smaller HCQ dosage for prophylaxis, and it is still less than two million tablets, or only about 10% of a regular weekly’s supply. Such increase in demand was easily covered by pharma companies’ existing stock. Additionally, pharma companies were ramping up their manufacturing and announcing donations of tens of millions of tablets. Clearly, purchase of HCQ for COVID-19 treatment likely had no impact at all. All the shortages were caused by the operation using Internet and social media to create achieve results in the physical world. It was the first distributed denial of a life-saving drug in the history.
Stockpiling was the actual cause of shortages
Because HCQ is safe, it is frequently prescribed for 90 days. Because it is cheap, insurance companies may allow patients to refill the whole 90-day supply at one time. Many lupus patients do not adhere to their regimen (see below) and thus often have unfulfilled prescriptions. Due to the fear sowed by the media, some of these patients rushed to fill their long term HCQ prescriptions, even though they had plenty of unused tablets at home. If we estimate only 5% out of the 1.5 million lupus patients filled their 30 or 90-day prescriptions, it created a sudden demand for 9 million tablets – enough to cause shortages in the distribution channels. Even so, it seems that HCQ supply from manufacturers was not interrupted at any time. Some manufacturers always had HCQ for sale, although not in all packaging options. Following data is from the ASHP page, tracking HCQ shortages.
March 19, March 24: HCQ tablets are available from Concordia, Sandoz, Zydus; Prasco (current customers), Amneal (“on allocation”). Teva promises availability in late March. April 16: HCQ tablets are available from Concordia, Mylan; Amneal (“on allocation”), Sandoz (current customers and through HHS), Zidus (current customers), and Prasco (limited supply).
HCQ State Orders
Lacking the authority to completely ban doctors from prescribing HCQ, some governors restricted pharmacies from fulfilling prescriptions to COVID-19 patients, but not to other patients. Notice that the rational policy to deal with shortage would have been to limit dispensed quantities of HCQ to everyone. This would have ensured that all patients receive the drug. The effect of the inverted policy was suffering of COVID-19 victims, stockpiling of the drug by users with 90-day prescriptions, and increased shortages. New York and Michigan outright banned dispensing HCQ to COVID-19 victims, with rare exceptions, and allowed stockpiling by other users. Apparently, when pharmacies in New York ran out of HCQ, lupus patients raided neighboring states.
Some states did not ban, but created obstacles for COVID-19 victims, like the requirement that the patient tested positive for COVID-19 (when the availability of tests was limited). In the best case, the result was delay of HCQ treatment, sharply decreasing its anti-viral efficiency.
NY’s policy on HCQ fulfillment was probably the worst (score: 10):
No pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen-day prescription with no refills.
MI’s policy was probably the second worst. NJ’s policy was not much better.
DE adopted one of the best policies (score: 0):
New prescriptions are being limited to a 14-day supply, unless the patient is previously established on the medication. Patients previously established on the medication are limited to a 30- day supply. This should ensure that patients with chronic disease can get their medication and ensure there is adequate drug available in the clinical setting to manage the critically ill. The Division of Professional Regulation encourages prescribers, pharmacies, and pharmacists to adopt similar policies.
The policies are from AMA Statement and List of Related Laws, April 27.
Deaths Clusters
Supporting Information
Immediate Increase of HCQ Supply
From an article about HCQ donations by pharma companies (FiercePharma.com, March 20, 12:47pm):
Novartis has pledged a global donation of up to 130 million hydroxychloroquine tablets, pending regulatory approvals for COVID-19. Mylan is ramping up production at its West Virginia Facility with enough supplies to make 50 million tablets. Teva is donating 16 million tablets to hospitals around the U.S. On Friday afternoon, Amneal pledged to make 20 million tablets by mid-April.
The pledges follow Bayer’s Thursday [actually, Wed, March 18] donation of 3 million tablets [of Chloroquine].
Teva press release, March 19, 08:23 pm EDT
Teva will donate 6 Million tablets through wholesalers to hospitals by March 31, and more than 10 Million within a month
Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd. (NYSE and TASE: TEVA) announced today the immediate donation of more than 6 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets through wholesalers to hospitals across the U.S. …
Mylan has restarted production of hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets at its West Virginia manufacturing facility in the U.S. to meet the potential for increased demand resulting from potential effectiveness of the product in treating COVID-19.
Novartis press release, March 20, 12:00 ET
Novartis intends to donate up to 130 million 200 mg doses by the end of May, including its current stock of 50 million 200 mg doses. The company is also exploring further scaling of capacity to increase supply and is committed to working with manufacturers around the world to meet global demand.
Amneal press release, March 20, 4:17pm
Amneal is ramping up production of hydroxychloroquine sulfate at several of its manufacturing sites and expects to produce approximately 20 million tablets between now and mid-April. Those tablets will be made available nationwide through Amneal’s existing retail and wholesale customers, as well as through direct sales to larger institutions in need.
Note that the increase in manufacturing and donations were announced before the fake news media published articles predicting imminent HCQ shortages.
Lupus Patients’ HCQ Needs
After HCQ accumulates in tissues, its half-life in the body is 30-60 days, so its users are able to skip it for a week or two without adverse effects. There is an interesting article in the Journal of Rheumatology:
One of the most common questions from patients was whether they should stop taking their lupus medications … Then, on Thursday, March 19th, President Trump, in a White House briefing, stated that antimalarials “showed tremendous promise” and “could be a game- changer”. Suddenly, the rumblings became a roar. The questions about stopping HCQ turned into ‘I can’t get HCQ, my pharmacy is out’ from lupus patients trying to access refills.
Dr. Raoult, the author of the French study at the heart of the current furor: “It is difficult to find a product that has a better established safety profile. Furthermore its cost is negligible”. One final and ironic possibility: is it possible that one outcome may be improved adherence to HCQ by lupus patients? For years, rheumatologists have been trying to convince lupus patients of essentially the same thing. The risk benefit ratio for HCQ is excellent, and the potential benefits significant. Yet adherence to HCQ is universally low.
The paper says that 20%-50% of the lupus patients had poor adherence to HCQ, sometimes not taking it at all. This is not surprising, given the long half-life of this medication in the body. This also explains why some lupus got COVID-19. More info:
Hydroxychloroquine on Lupus.org:
Given the drug’s many and varied beneficial effects and its excellent long-standing safety profile, most rheumatologists believe that hydroxychloroquine should be taken by people with lupus throughout their lifetime.
Hydroxychloroquine on RheumatoidArthritis.org:
The medication [HCQ] is generally well-tolerated, and has even been found safe overall for women who are pregnant or breastfeeding. … Like all medications, there is the risk of side effects. Fortunately, the problems seen by people taking this medication are usually very mild. Serious side effects are rare.
Examples of Fake News Anti-HCQ Articles
Washington Post, March 20, 2020 (5:07 pm CDT)
Hospitals and doctors are wiping out supplies of an unproven coronavirus treatment
This was the initial title. As suits fake news, WaPo surreptitiously changed it to even more alarmist title later:
As Trump touts an unproven coronavirus treatment, supplies evaporate for patients who need those drugs
The byline:
The U.S. has all but exhausted its supplies of two anti-malarial drugs that are being used by some doctors in the U.S. and China to treat the coronavirus, but which lack definitive evidence as effective treatment or approval from the Food and Drug Administration.
Note the phrases “all but exhausted” and “lack definitive evidence” indicating intentional deception.
The sudden shortages of the two drugs could come at a serious cost for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients …
Notice the “could come”.
Data gathered in the first 17 days of March by Premier Inc., a large group purchasing organization for 4,000 U.S. hospitals, showed a 300 percent week-over-week increase in orders of chloroquine and a 70 percent week-over-week boost in orders of hydroxychloroquine.
Hospitals are sophisticated buyers. They know what might help patients.
The NY Times, March 20, 2020 Updated 7:34 p.m. ET
Trump’s Embrace of Unproven Drugs to Treat Coronavirus Defies Science
Doctors and patients also worry that the president’s rosy outlook for the treatments will exacerbate shortages of old malaria drugs relied on by patients with lupus and other debilitating conditions.
Fake news par excellence! The NY Times insinuates that there are HCQ shortages, contrary to the facts, but in a way that sounds as if it was commonly known information.
“Rheumatologists are furious about the hype going on over this drug,” said Dr. Michael Lockshin, of the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan. “There is a run on it and we’re getting calls every few minutes, literally, from patients who are trying to stay on the drug and finding it in short supply.”
Hydroxychloroquine is especially important for people with lupus, which can be life-threatening, Dr. Lockshin said.
This is an attempt to stir up conflict between lupus/RA patients and COVID-19 patients.
Lupus Patients Can’t Get Crucial Medication After President Trump Pushes Unproven Coronavirus Treatment
Trump’s unproven claim that hydroxychloroquine could be used to treat COVID-19 has led to hoarding, putting Lupus patients and others at even greater risk. As of Saturday afternoon, Anna Valdez had 27 pills left. That number is now down to 25.
Valdez called her local pharmacy and ordered a refill to treat her autoimmune disorder, thinking a 90-day supply would help her ride out the coronavirus outbreak.
Valdez is angry at Trump for recommending a drug that is unproven for COVID-19, upending the way medicine has been practiced and taking a medicine that works away from her.
Anna Valdez, if she ever existed, had enough HCQ for twelve days, and would be able to refill it on time, possibly for less than 90 days, if not for the axis of resistance. More on ProPublica.
Lupus.org published tips for stockpiling HCQ:
Try to refill your prescription before the refill date
If the medication is out of stock at a particular pharmacy, the pharmacists there may still be able to help you find a reputable place to refill. They may know of pharmacies that ship across state lines — if that is the case, ask your prescribing doctor to write you a prescription for that location.
If you believe you have been unfairly denied a prescription fill or refill, find your state board of pharmacy’s phone number or email address to file a consumer complaint.
Ask your doctor to prescribe a 90-day supply, instead of a 30 day supply, to make sure you have enough in case it becomes more difficult to access later.
Data behind the Map
The following table shows the number of deaths, deaths per million of population, and the level of damaging HCQ policy of the state. HCQ policy is assigned a number from 0 (DE) to 10 (NY), based on its level of damage (by withholding or obstructing HCQ) to COVID-19 patients. States without a HCQ policy in the AMA Statement and List of Related Laws are assigned the number 1.
| State | Deaths | Deaths/M | HCQ policy derangement | Cluster? | |
| New York | 26,812 | 1,378 | 10 | NY cluster | |
| New Jersey | 9,264 | 1,043 | 6 | NY cluster | |
| Connecticut | 2,967 | 832 | 1 | NY cluster | |
| Massachusetts | 4,979 | 722 | 1 | NY cluster | |
| Louisiana | 2,286 | 492 | 1 | ||
| District Of Columbia | 328 | 465 | 8 | NY cluster | |
| Michigan | 4,551 | 456 | 9 | ||
| Rhode Island | 430 | 406 | 3 | NY cluster | |
| Pennsylvania | 3,823 | 299 | 1 | NY cluster | |
| Maryland | 1,683 | 278 | 1 | NY cluster | |
| Illinois | 3,406 | 269 | 4 | ||
| USA Total | 80,931 | 245 |
(Worldometers snapshot, May 11, 2020)
Most of the states with the highest number of deaths per million are Democrat governed. On the other hand, California and Washington, who are also Democrat governed but have reasonable HCQ policies, have a low number of deaths per million. Washington, having a HCQ policy score 1, was at a disadvantage, as the first epicenter of the epidemic and because it receives less UV sunlight than NY, yet they fared much better.
Google Blocked Access to an HCQ Paper on Author’s Google Drive
On March 17, Anthony wrote a post An effective treatment for #Coronavirus #COVID-19 has been found in a common anti-malarial drug. It linked to the paper An Effective Treatment for Coronavirus (COVID-19)by James M. Todaro, MD and Gregory J. Rigano, Esq., and its Spanish version, both shared on Google Drive. Since that time, both have been blocked by Google because of violation of its ToS (but remain in an archive).
Elon Musk tweeted about that paper a day earlier. When viewers click the link, Twitter shows them a “warning” that the destination page might be unsafe. I encounter such things all the time.
Please note how HCQ side effects are described at https://www.rheumatology.org/I-Am-A/Patient-Caregiver/Treatments/Hydroxychloroquine-Plaquenil (which was written/published before COVID19 and therefore contains medical information rather than propaganda or attempt to advance someones $$$$$ interests) – as mild and rare.
Have posted before about EVMS PROTOCOL
For full protocol down load from evms.edu/covidcare
Read it to understand full phases of desease.
Here is an interview of Dr Marik followed by article on protocol
https://knowledgeisgood.net/2020/05/02/a-report-from-the-front/
Terry May 11, 2020 at 8:22 pm
Buried in that article is this quote and link:
On April 6, 2020, the aptly named “Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Consortium” issued a bulletin urging the “immediate adoption of [an] early intervention protocol to prevent mortality and reduce the use of ventilators from COVID-19 disease.”
That Bulletin has been saved on the WayBack Machine
Follow the link to the bulletin and to #4 where it says:
4. Oral Hydroxychloroquine
a. 400 mg every 12 hours for one day
b. switch to 200 mg every 12 hours for a total of 4 days
They have been suggesting HCQ for some time.
I have been watching the EVMS protocol and have all of the updates. I did look up the alliance news letter you posted. Had not seen that one.
Here is direct link to EVMS pdf
https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/departments/internal_medicine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf
There is one more recent to load from link
Evms.edu/covidcare
They have gotten a touch more politically correct of late. Antiviral listed as optional, but in person
Terry May 11, 2020 at 10:35 pm
They have gotten a touch more politically correct of late.
That you use the term “Politically Correct” tells the story.
Video you need to watch.
https://youtu.be/__w8lBVwoNA
From the front line Dr’s
Yes HCQ in in there list, see 13:13
Terry,
Thanks for the link
Reposting your link so it shows up here.
EVMS is an entirely different treatment.
No it is not, it is HQC up front for when it his most important. On the back end it is a modified version of an older HAT treatment for septic shock. There is nothing wrong with treating the virus on the back end if needed. But it is the out of whack immune system that kills people. Note, they say HQC just works, while trying to be a bit on the politically correct side. They are used to going against the grain. The front end prevent to build up your immune system is standard fare these days.
Hydroxychloroquine does not work without Zinc supplements.
The dosage of Hydroxychloroquine required to stop the covid virus from replicating is 30 mg/day (compared to 200 mg/day to treat rheumatic diseases see MY002$’s link above) plus Zinc supplements 15 mg/day taken getting any symptoms.
Hydroxychloroquine is a Zinc ionophore which means it helps get the positive Zinc +2 ion into our negatively charged cell. The Zinc +2 ion stops the virus from replicating.
There is evidence that our body has a natural system that also gets Zinc into our cells to stop this class of viruses which must connect to the ACE-2 connector molecule to replicate.
From the above link to Hydroxychloroquine dosage and side effects.
“Hydroxychloroquine comes in an oral tablet. Adult dosing for rheumatic diseases ranges from 200 mg to 400 mg per day (typically 5 mg/kg, maximum 400 mg daily). In some cases, higher doses are used. It can be taken as a single daily dose or in 2 divided doses if taking more than one tablet.”
Viruses are simple things that absolutely must use our cells to replicate.
Zinc has been shown to stop the virus from replicating at a microbiological level.
The virus cannot mutate to get around the ion Zinc making the ACE-2 connector molecule in our cells slightly positive, which stops the virus replication.
No replication, no virus spreading, and no serious symptoms.
This is a paper about the in vitro test that shows the Zinc stops this class of viruses from replicating
https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176
This a slick Medcram explanation of the microbiology as to why that is true.
YouTube showed an ad (or another something else?) instead of the video, without marking it as an ad.
Hi Leo. It worked for me. Sometimes there is an ad that must be watched for a minute before you can skip it.
This video is interesting at 4:00 minutes in.
Hydroxychloroquine does not work without Zinc supplements.
Why Dr. Raoult in France is successful ?
If the patient’s diet is sufficient in zinc then HCQ will act as an ionophore and import it into the cell where it prevents the corona virus hijacking the cells RNA replication process. If the patient’s diet is insufficient in zinc – as in someone after a week in hospital – then there is insufficient zinc and HCQ will have a limited anti-inflammatory effect.
If diet is sufficient in zinc, selenium and vitamin D then it is likely that a patient will be asymptomatic. Just as mystifying as the media demonizing a cheap treatment for COVID-19 is the unwillingness of ‘talking head’ doctors to tell people to ensure they are sufficient in zinc, selenium and vitamin D – cheap easy preventative.
We took zinc (plus other supplements) along with Quercetin as prophylaxis while traveling in early March. Quercetin is also an ionophore.
I’ve been trying to locate a zinc supplement at Wal Mart since sometime around the first of March and have not been able to locate anything other than zinc lozenges which do not have as many milligrams.
Any vitamin or health food store. I just bought some more today. I use CA/Mg/Zn with small amt of vit D which is a great combo. Quercetin is not expensive either. It got me through Covid 19 fast.
Try Amazon.
Global Healing. Com… Dr. Edward Grupe, liquid zinc.
Nevertheless we have here some specialists pointing only on the (possible) bad side-effects of HCQ as reason not to treat Ccorona infectedd with it. But never point on the recovering properties in first order.
An all-day medicament is much more dangerous than HCQ – Aspirin comparing their side-effects:
German source
Aspirin Side EffectsAspirin Side Effects
Face it Goldstein, if the drug worked, we wouldn’t have over 81,000 dead.
re: “Face it Goldstein, if the drug worked, we wouldn’t have over 81,000 dead.”
Idiocy on display; tell us the prescribed regimen was followed.
There has not been one efficacy test that has shown the drug to work against COVID-19
“…There has not been one efficacy test…”
There is something called reason, which you lack. You read stuff (like bumper sticker slogans) and cannot defend your position.
Do you know what “efficacy” means?
Once you look up the work, you might understand what the phrase you used means, you will then be able to know how senseless your statement was.
“Face it Goldstein …. ”
Face it Pool. If you start with an insulting address and think one number out of any context makes any kind of argument one way or the other, you just display your ignorant, bigoted stance from the outset.
NY an NJ were the most obstructive political interference in impeding medically trained staff on the ground to make the decisions necessary for patient care. How much did that knee-jerk political TDS action contribute to those states being the amongst the highest per capita in COVID-19 cases and deaths ?
Not sure how many people here have worked in the pharmaceutical industry, quite a few to be sure.
I have 12 years of direct experience of the drug approval, clinical studies, FDA GMP and QBD protocols. An additional 17 years of tangential experience with the pharmaceutical industry.
Not sure to whom you are trying convince you have any beneficial experience, ideas, or input when everything said completely is wrong.
The maximal number of death in Turkey has been 127. The treat all Covid-19 cases from the early beginning with HCQ, no exception.
Imagine, they didn’t !
No Krishna, THOUSANDS of deaths, so maybe proof HCQ isn’t a miracle treatment.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/turkey/
???
I wrote about the daily numbers, and the highest was 127 on April 19.
These “thousands” (3.894) are just about a half of German numbers (7.676)
So, pllease ccomoe with some thing more interesting.
There are so many confounding factors in the HCQ tale, including trials being limited generally to the truly hopeless cases, that no one can say for certain what might have occurred under other circumstances — no one except, of course, you.
I can say that based on how it works, waiting to give the drug until after one’s in full life support mode is fool hardy at best. The major mechanism, I am aware of, is that it lets Zn into cells to stops RNA replication. You always take with Zn to make sure there is enough of that for treatment.
If the body is into secondary effects, including full cytokine storm, lungs leaking, bacterial infection and inundated with the viruses already, then stopping the replication may be too late. Why would one be forced to wait that long? To me, that is a crime.
And that blows my mind (pardon the 60s phrase). One of the first and earliest higher value opinions came from the French virologist. His outlook was that HCQ was only effective if used in the early stages of the infection, and he used somewhat low dosages in treating patients. I remember clearly reading all of that when that news first came out.
So what defense does the VA patient group, or that Brazilian study have in giving high dosages to patients when there were several studies from distinguished minds saying just the opposite? I can’t help but look at that as pretty close to murder. Note that both of those stories were quickly fed into the news media stream, and the claim of the ineffectiveness of HCQ was then said to be proven. I can scarcely believe the level of the propaganda war currently underway in this nation.
If it’s not TSD syndrome, it’s certainly parallel… WUWT right?
And the sole purpose of it is to “Get POTUS Trump” eliminated from having any political/legal influence or control over this nation, …….. regardless of the collateral damage involving loss of lives, loss of jobs, loss of health, etc.
The are “confounding actors” – the media, the resistance, and the Democrat-Socialist party.
But this is not a theoretical debate. We don’t attempt to force people to take HCQ. The other side denies HCQ to sick people who wants it, under the color of state authority, and threat of violence that comes with it.
Another expert opinion. Really Henry where do you get your treatment facts. Publish a link.
Terry, there has been no double blind efficacy test that has shown the drug works. If there is one, why don’t you post the link.
Henry: You are pulling yet another strawman argument. [do you know what a strawman is? if you do, you realize it means you know you have no point whatsoever]
You’re 3 months behind the level of discussion here. Yes, the results of a double blind study are not in. Are you somehow saying that since there are no results, that is proof it does not work? What exactly is your point?
Are you aware that your posts do not show a level of knowledge or understanding of what’s being discussed?
Asking for you to post the scientific evidence that points to a drug being effective is not a “strawman.”
Henry here is one of the first clinical trials since the COVID-19 supporters demanded one.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v3
To remove stuffing from your straw man, young Henry, can you show us a double blind test that shows the drug doesn’t work?
Just curious. You seem to be an expert after all.
“Henry, can you show us a double blind test that shows the drug doesn’t work”
…
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2020/04/21/more-deaths-no-benefit-from-malaria-drug-in-va-virus-study/
Henry,
Article states “The nationwide study was not a rigorous experiment.“ ergo not double blind.
And it does not indicate that zinc was part of the treatment regimen.
Henry,
The VA data survey you reference is not a ‘double blind’ study, at all! It was an after the fact survey of the results of 368 desperately ill males, most already on ventilators and more than half african american ethinicity, that were given HCQ, HCQ+Zpack, or no HCQ at all before they either survived or died. The survey didn’t even report what dosage or application frequency of HCQ or Zpack were given to each patient! If any were provided with ZN, it was not reported! WTH??? Kinda important information, dontcha think?
In summary, a subgroup of 368 VA male patients already on respirators and with one foot in the grave were given ‘some’ level of HCQ as a last ditch effort to save them…. and for a bunch of them it didn’t work. Why? It was just too damn late! HCQ + Zn is reportedly effective as a therapeutic when given at first onset of Chinese virus symptoms. Got it?
That junk VA survey provided the ‘data’ necessary for fake news sources to publish headlines “HCQ Lethal To VA Patients”. The useful tools and TDS afflicted tin foil hat brigade then rushed the same completely false allegation onto every social media platform. You are repeating junk science and fake news headlines. Why?
Henry, do you still get paid to sow disinformation on conservative blogs?
Henry
I can’t say I am surprised to see you quoting the VA result. You could also have quoted the head of the VA denying that this experiment was a failure and his detailed explanation why. And they didn’t stop.
You could have also misquoted the Brazilian study where it was claimed that “the study was stopped” (see above). I read the relevant paper and they did not stop the study (contradicting the claim) but did stop taking people into the arm of the study where very sick people were given high doses well above normal (1.2 g/ day). It provided no benefit to very sick people but at that huge dose, did or may have added complications. It is hard to tell because COVID causes heart attacks, being a disease attacking the epithelial cells.
The rest of the Brazilian study continued because it has some success. I see no reason for you to ignore the successful Korean, Chinese, French, Turkish and American studies by claiming (repeatedly here) that there is no evidence of efficacy. It was working on SARS-1 patients so it was an early investigation to find out if it works on SARS-Cov-2.
People”s lives are at stake. Stop misrepresenting common knowledge as if you have some special standing to demand some additional “proof”. The proof that denying people HCQ early causes many unnecessary deaths was pointed out by Steve McIntyre: the thousands of bodies piled on morgue in NYC of people who didn’t get it.
Crispin: You are a gentleman. Reflecting on one of my previous posts, it is dangerous that people like Henry arrogantly and ignorantly spread dangerous misinformation that they are aware of. Henry knows or could know, by just doing a modicum of thinking. But we can not rely on that. His statements are harmful to society… and people need to constantly dispel the evil information that has been installed into his mind. I do not say evil lightly and without thought. His energy of dispensing wrongful information is a harm and he will not accept thoughts that are contra to his confirmation bias enabled disability.
There is no doubt; HCQ was demonized after Trump mentioned it. The studies I have seen, they used it as a last ditch effort on the sickest patients so no wonder they had higher mortality (correlation does not equal causation). Like Tamiflu, wisdom indicates it needs to be taken early to prevent viral replication. CV19 seems to do a lot of damage before people know they are sick. We have to move away from the mentality that it is just another flu.
The military study? They didn’t even provide dosing information.
Case study reviews are as valid as any double blind test.
Where’s the double blind test for wearing masks?
“Case study reviews are as valid as any double blind test.”
They are not. Otherwise nobody would do a double blind test at all.
Ron,
It is difficult to get approval fora double-blind test when death is a likely outcome for the cnttrol group.
A double-blind test is also difficult to run for a prophalaxis drug. How do you differentiate between outcomes?
Sometimes a double-blind test is simply impossible to do leaving case study review as the only available analysis.
Ron, you stop any drug test when the cohort that receives the drug dies at a higher rate than the control group.
So, if you happen to get hit with the bug, would you still want to wait for an adequate number of double-blind tests to conclude before trying HCQ?
Henry your double blind test from the VA proves nothing about the early intervention using HCQ and Zinc. That study used HCQ and Z-Pac late. When it’s efficacy was known to be poor. Show me a double blind test where it was used early and was ineffective.
It was not a “double blind study”. It was an after the fact survey of the results of 368 desperately ill males, most already on ventilators and more than half african american ethinicity, that were given HCQ, HCQ+Zpack, or no HCQ at all before they either survived or died. There was no comment what the drug dosage levels or how often they were given to the one-foot-in-the-grave VA patients.
In summary, a subgroup of 368 VA male patients already on respirators and with one foot in the grave were given ‘some’ level of HCQ as a last ditch effort to save them…. and for a bunch of them it didn’t work. Why? It was just too damn late! HCQ + Zn is reportedly effective as a therapeutic when given at first onset of Chinese virus symptoms. Not when they are already on ventilators and near death!
A double-blind trial could, indeed perhaps should, be carried out on the prophylactic use of hydroxychloroquine. Since the drug is inexpensive this could sort of be done by getting a sizable number of uninfected people in an area where people are still getting infected to take it together with zinc. How they fared compared with the general population in the same area could then be used by one of those people that’s good with statistics to demonstrate that HCQ works prophylactically. Next everyone starts taking it, everyone goes back to work and the epidemic is over and all the murderous Marxist heads explode.
Whether or not the drug works is irrelevant if the places with lots of cases weren’t allowing it to be used. Other countries where there’s been widespread use have reported that it seems to be beneficial.
Just another example of where government regulation kills. In a sane world, people could buy it over the counter and wouldn’t have to beg permission from the government to take a drug which might save their life.
“Other countries where there’s been widespread use have reported that it seems to be beneficial.”
…
“Seems” is not a double blind efficacy trial. Find one that proves it works, and post the link.
“seems” is not a double blind study. Nope, it qualifies, though as the experience of medical doctors leads them to believe it works. It seems to. It is cheap and safe.
If the mechanism for HCQ is its being a Zn-ionophore with Zn being the actual anti-viral agent, then administer it early. Pre-exposure is fine. There is no shortage. If a doctor wants to prescribe it to a patient who is aware of all the news about it not being “proven” and that patient agrees who the hell do you think you are to suggest that it is not worth giving.
““Seems” is not a double blind efficacy trial.”
Who cares?
If countries are using it and reporting better results than countries which aren’t using it, why would you possibly want to kill people by demanding a trial before you use it?
I mean, really. Where does this crazy ‘OMG we can’t use this we haven’t spent ten years testing it’ mentality come from?
Or are you just trolling?
Yup, obviously he’s just trolling.
This standard of discounting anecdotal evidence is also causing ethical crises in situations where people are reporting harm. Insisting on evidence based on studies, while people are honestly and consistently reporting harm is a tactic being used in other situations.
Is this ‘delay, delay, delay’ tactic of forcing people who are being harmed to participate in studies, which can be designed to fail, being used intentionally?
Here’s an example of an ongoing ethical crisis where anecdotal reports of harm from industrial scale wind turbines are consistently discounted.
https://www.windaction.org/posts/39133-explicit-warning-notice-waubra-foundation#.Xrqw9i8ZMxE
@HenryP
MD’s are also scientists and are using a scientific approach in treating their patients, complete with analytical and clinical testing. Do you even know what that means? I do. I am the guy helped design some of those machines/platforms. Installed most of same macines, trained people how to use them.
Are you really suggesting that politicians should be giving medical advice? And that advice will be 100% correct 100% of the time. Government regulations are not written for the real world.
IIRC there has never been a double blind trial on whether parachutes work.
Maybe you should volunteer for one?
Excellent StevenP – I will reuse that 🙂
Henry Pool
Would the drug do any harm to an otherwise healthy person?
As it’s been approved, albeit for a different use, it is largely safe.
Would you turn it down were you told there was no double blind trial, but that medics believed there was a chance it could work?
Hot Scot
Simple, short, careful, logical reasoning.
Your could add a fourth point: it is dirt cheap
Really?
Think about your statement, it can’t work where the Knuckleheads prohibit is use.
Besides those who served in Vietnam in the Jungle were given the medication before going out into Malaria infested regions without all the side effects claimed by the SWAMP
The difference with malaria and COVID-19 is that the drug has been proven effective against malaria in a double blind efficacy test. The same cannot be said about it’s efficacy against COVID-19
Here is an objective look at HCQ, … https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927758
Turkey now has the largest patient data set on the use of HCQ. Turkey has given HCQ to all virus infected patients, and suspected viral patients. They now have had 140,000 cases, and they have an amazing 96+K recovered versus 40+K active cases. That is incredible. No other nation has shown numbers like that. Even more incredible is that they did this right from the beginning of their outbreak, and so the above numbers.
@HenryP
Sure that is true both and false. We are trying to educate you to the reality that it is not one or the other. This is also why you are wrong in your binary view. If a double-blind test during clinical trials produce positive treatment outcomes then the researchers have a moral and ethical obligation to treatment critical patients regardless of trials designed endpoints.
Furthermore,
There is enough patient and case study reviews, coupled with the very long history and knowledge of HCQ, that it is immoral, unethical, negligent, diabolical and evil to withhold HCQ/Zn from CCP virus patients.
Correct. HCQ use should be viewed in the context of “battlefield medicine.”
Salute!
Well, Henry, how many of those 81,000 + were on the HCL Lupus prescriptions? How many tried the HCL at the first signs of infection?
Further, what percentage of we millions of Vietnam vets that took the stuff for months and even years have had severe, debilitating side effects? Ask Willis about his experience, as he took the stuff longer than many of us.
Oh well, anything to cast a shadow on someone suggesting, not recommending, that the medical profession leave no stone unturned. But until the brothers-in-law groups of insiders put their seal of approval on something, we just die.
Gums sends…
Salute!
Well, Henry, how many of those 81,000 + were on the HCL Lupus prescriptions? How many tried the HCL at the first signs of infection?
Further, what percentage of we millions of Vietnam vets that took the stuff for months and even years have had severe, debilitating side effects? Ask Willis about his experience, as he took the stuff longer than many of us.
Oh well, anything to cast a shadow on someone suggesting, not recommending, that the medical profession leave no stone unturned. But until the brothers-in-law groups of insiders put their seal of approval on something, we just die.
Gums sends…
possible double post due to interruption
Henry: Did you really just say that? I hope you’re not a lawyer, father, teacher, minister, politician, or anyone who other people might listen to for an opinion. Wow! Good thing you’re on the other side.
Isn’t the point of the article that the states that restricted the drug have the vast majority of deaths?
We have less than half the mortality rate of Europe, so we’re doing something significantly better than Europe.
I do not think we know the mortality rate, per se, and won’t until we do antibody testing. Seems the rates we in the 3 to 10% range based on severely skewed and subjective testing. And mortality and case numbers are higher in places that test more… when in reality, without antibody testing, the numbers are to me, too subjective to be able to make the claim.
For example, countries that do not test at all, have the best numbers… they must have done something right. sarc/
As I always say, you can do good statistics on bad data… and get [eg. global warming doom]
Sometimes Goldsteins have an idea fix.
You cannot help that.
They truly believe what they say.
Henry Pool, I hereby forbid you to take unproven medications. Stick to drugs that work [if you know any].
The drug works when it is taken by patients, not when it is to them.
It’s obvious the motives. They have no interest in “saving” lives, which is clearly evident in other policies like enabling drug users, abortion, etc. Regarding CV19, they were against any measures in the beginning. Once we shut down, they’re against opening back up. They disagreed with Trump’s messages of HOPE. They’re against hydrochloroquin, even though thousands of doctors around the world are jumping on it. Their only desire is to wait for a vaccine, which may never come. We still don’t have a vaccine for CV2. We don’t have a vaccine for HIV. We don’t have an EFFECTIVE vaccine for the flu.
The desire to wait for a vaccine will disappear after the first week in November 2020. It is all politics everything is politics to the politicians and their media supporters.
The use of fake news and lies regarding Hydroxychloroquine is yet another example in the Krazycats war on Trump. Like their similar Tactics in the ‘Climate Change’ fiasco, it is designed to advance their cause and the interests of the Elite at the expense of the interests and well-being of the average person. Normally this would be seen as criminal behaviour.
nicholas
I think it is misinformation from big Pharma to protect their own money making schemes as much as an anti Trump push.
This article presents results of a smaller study but also and just as importantly the results of analysing data from Italian doctors who routinely prescribe HQC to lupus and arthritis suffers. A data base of 65,000 and only 20 have tested positive to the virus. So even if it used as just a preventative (say for health workers) it is beneficial.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/in-italy-practically-nobody-who-takes-hydroxychloroquine-for-lupus-or-rheumatoid-arthritis-got-cv/
Dr Zelenko, the Jewish doctor in NY who was one of the first to highlight the HQC + Zinc + antibiotic treatment is in the process of writing up a couple of papers to explain his results ( last I read he had had a 100% result on 800+ patients –yes he got them on treatment early, before hospitalisation was required)
preventive.
As noted in the article, doctors in NY withheld HCQ until the late stages of the disease. Recently, they published a “study” on NY that claimed there was no difference in outcomes for HCQ and non-HCQ patients. The article sent to the media emphasized that. Even the abstract of the study admitted that the patients getting HCQ were significantly sicker than those not getting the drug.
HCQ needs to be administered before going to hospital.
Better to take it at home then wait for a doctor or nurse to give it to you.
By the time you get to the hospital it’s too late.
How many lupus patients have tested positive for covid 19? zero
Well, Mister, it is a prescription drug. If you can get your doctor to prescribe it pre-exposure more’s the power to ya.
However, if the means by which HCQ works is due to its being a zinc-ionophore*, then a reasonable pre-exposure prep is Quercetin, an OTC zinc-ionophore. But keep it a secret. Otherwise everyone would use it and never need HCQ.
*The anti-viral is zinc. The ionophore takes it out of the bloodstream and into the cells.
True. Also Vitamin D3 levels need to be optimized and several other key nutrients. We’re complex beings.
I’ve boosted my immune system and feel close enough to bulletproof against the COV.
Check out Orthomolecular medicine.
Old George
Thanks for the excellent advice.
This is sought of what I’m doing.
Based on medcram update 59
I’m healthy but are taking
Stage 1 no COVID in my community
Vitamin C through fruit
Vitamin D via 1000 iu capsules
Zinc only 10mg per day
Quercetin on standby
Melatonin via bananas.
Stage 2 I will increase if COVID in my community.
Stage 3 I will further increase if I actually get it.
My intention if I get COVID is
-assume I my symptoms start day 5
-phone dr to write script for HQL.
– if doctor don’t give I will ” doctor shop”
– sleep lots
By day 8 or 9 it should be clear that I am recovering or not.
It is my understanding that by day 12 your either fully recovering or in big trouble.
WHY DID I PREPARE THE ABOVE STRATEGY?
BECAUSE MY GOVERNMENT HAS NOT.
Two comments…
Ask you Dr now if he will. Dr shop now not later..
Make sure you know what treatment to ask(demand) should you end up in hospital.
See evms.eud/covidcare
On the side, trying to decide if vodka tonics(vodka optional) are in my future
Planning to do something on about day 5 or 6 is a better plan; days 8-9 is a little late. Day 5-6 is typically when the virus starts causing lung inflammation and peoples’ blood oxygen saturations start dropping; 92 and below indicates a potentially serious problem. That’s the time to seek help and get something to counter the inflammation. Get a finger pulse oximeter so you can know if/when that starts happening.
Terry, ethanol is great, but be aware that it competes for glutathione that your body needs to fight off infection. N-acetylcysteine might be a better alternative.
Icisil
On most days I would skip the vodka. I will drink but only socially. Not much of that going on these days. The real question is the quinine you might get in the various tonic syrups you can get along with supplemental extracts worth the trouble. It is difficult to nail down how much is really in them.
Yes, I have ordered some NAC supplements. Just do not know how well it will go into my morning keto latte. Already has bilberry, cacao, and qucerien plus mct oil.
I might note that Zicam, an OTC cold remedy, has, as its main active ingredient, Zinc. Zinc had been shown to be fairly effective in reducing the severity and longevity of the “common cold”, which (we have been told) is closely related to the ChiCom Flu (I understand that Covid19 is not influenza, but I’m giving credit where it is due- our “benefactors” running China).
Correct and don’t keep it a secret! Do good things! Vitamin and nutrition stores need the business. They are easy to find and they always knew these were good things for virus just did not know the mechanism.
Fake news.
Lupus patients on HCQ get Covid like anyone else.
You may take a type of drug for lupus that makes your immune system less active, called an immunosuppressant.
MR BITCOIN
I am still waiting for that information as well.
We would want to include the query as to the zinc levels of the HQC users to in hope of avoiding the attention seeking “fake news” responses.
HCQ+AZ acts as a disinfectant and is most effective when administered before disease progression damages or destroys critical organs.
Great post
The states with the highest covid 19 deaths (and death per capita) are progressive, supported a lockdown and prohibited HCQ. The governors of these states want people to die so they can shut down the economy.
It’s unsurprising. The governor of Illinois is dumber than a box of rocks. There’s nothing about the state that he actually likes, but it makes him a political career like all of the other awful and corrupt, today entirely Democrat, politicians that state did the same for. How can the voters in that state be so dumb?
Chicago rules the vote in Illinois. Unions and the cemetery vote are solidly democrat.
Chicago is the Windy City , full of hot air. Nixon won Illinois in 1960. Democrats stole Chicago
Wow. Stoop so low they can frack while they are down there.
The NY study of results of hydrochloroquine etc treatment is now out
“Key Points
Question: Among patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), is there an association between use of hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, and in-hospital mortality?
Findings: In a retrospective cohort study of 1438 patients hospitalized in metropolitan New York, compared with treatment with neither drug, the adjusted hazard ratio for in-hospital mortality for treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone was 1.08, for azithromycin alone was 0.56, and for combined hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was 1.35. None of these hazard ratios were statistically significant.
Meaning: Among patients hospitalized with COVID-19, treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, or both was not associated with significantly lower in-hospital mortality.”
Did you check the authors of the study?
2 PhD
1 MD
All employed by Albany public sector
Was this study peer reviewed?
“Did you check the authors of the study?”
Did you?
“Eli S. Rosenberg, PhD; Elizabeth M. Dufort, MD; Tomoko Udo, PhD; Larissa A. Wilberschied, MS; Jessica Kumar, DO; James Tesoriero, PhD; Patti Weinberg, PA; James Kirkwood, MPH; Alison Muse, MPH; Jack DeHovitz, MD; Debra S. Blog, MD; Brad Hutton, MPH; David R. Holtgrave, PhD; Howard A. Zucker, MD”
The study is published in JAMA, Journal of the American Medical Association
Was any of LEO’s rant peer reviewed?
It would be great if hydrochloroquine treatment work but so far there appears to be no
proper study showing that it does and all that remains is anecdotal evidence from several
doctors plus several retrospective study that suggest that it either have no effect or is harmful.
Which is not surprising since everybody is trying to find a solution and publishing promising studies before they can be peer-reviewed and subject to double-blind studies etc.
Read an interview of someone on the frontlines.
https://knowledgeisgood.net/2020/05/02/a-report-from-the-front/
Maybe you should tell Dr Marik it does not work…
“Maybe you should tell Dr Marik it does not work…”
In fact, in that link, all Dr Marik says is that it is cheap and readily available. He does not say anywhere that it works.
In the interview before the article 2nd paragraph
YES HE DOES…!!!
No, that is Dr Varon speaking. About a total of 40 patients that he treated.
“Dr. Marik told me that his group’s efforts to promote widespread use of its treatment protocol have been met with resistance by hospital administrators and other physicians.“
Yes Nick, I’m sure that his efforts to protect widespread use are not based on the premise that it works.
“Yes Nick, I’m sure that his efforts to protect widespread use”
Dr Marik does not promote widespread use of HCQ. His treatment protocol is here. It includes many vitamins, steroids, melatonin etc. It lists “??HCQ” as a “potential” therapy, and at another point as “optional”.
If there was a way to post the direct pdfs I would show you the history. HQC use started in China and has continued. From the beginning Dr Marik has discussed the effectiveness of HQC. The latest evms protocol is out. It now also lists three antivirals in the early phases. (With ???, all three) The group is just being politicaly correct to not distract from their back end protocol. But if you watched them from the beginning you know their true feelings. Starting with the Chinese using a modified HAT treatment plus HQC, …..
Even with the WHO going against it…
The first sentence from Leo contained a verifiably false statement regarding HCQ and CQ and one being a metabolite of the other.
Why anyone would keep reading after that is the only mystery.
This is someone who simply does not know what he is talking about.
Mister Bitcoin May 11, 2020 at 6:47 pm
Did you check the authors of the study?
2 PhD
1 MD
All employed by Albany public sector
Evidently you did not, or you don’t understand what et al. means!
Eli S. Rosenberg, PhD1; Elizabeth M. Dufort, MD2; Tomoko Udo, PhD1; Larissa A. Wilberschied, MS2; Jessica Kumar, DO2; James Tesoriero, PhD2; Patti Weinberg, PA3; James Kirkwood, MPH2; Alison Muse, MPH2; Jack DeHovitz, MD3,4; Debra S. Blog, MD2; Brad Hutton, MPH2; David R. Holtgrave, PhD1; Howard A. Zucker, MD2
Author Affiliations Article Information
1University at Albany School of Public Health, State University of New York, Rensselaer
2New York State Department of Health, Albany
3IPRO, Lake Success, New York
4Downstate Health Sciences University, State University of New York, Brooklyn
Well, duh. The doctors who’ve been using it in other countries say that it should be given as soon as symptoms are noticed, because it’s too late by the time people are hospitalized.
Which makes sense, given it’s believed to limit the ability of the virus to infect cells. Once you’ve got pneumonia and can’t breathe, that’s irrelevant.
C’mon, Nick, you understand statistics and experimental design better than to plump for an all-but-useless post hoc analysis. I don’t understand how you can think this is meaningful information.
Based on laboratory science there is reason to think HCQ could be effective in stopping virus replication, short circuiting the disease. Based on several clinical experiences and studies (none well-designed, as you must know), the evidence is mixed as to whether HCQ is effective to any degree or not. Some studies say “yes,” some say “no.”
Since side-effects are well-characterized (and rare), physicians should be free to use HCQ based on their judgment–that’s what Americans expect: FDA-approved drugs (like HCQ) can be used at the discretion of physicians for whatever condition they think might be helped. Why make HCQ the exception?
While it would be great to have a double-blind placebo-controlled study of HCQ used on COVID-19 patients within 48 hours of symptom onset, those do not yet exist (although are underway, I believe). As you know, antivirals (e.g., Acyclovir) are most effective at an early stage of viral expansion in vivo) and that NY study did not control for time-since-symptom-onset in the dosing or analysis.
Yes Nick, because the HCQ treatment was withheld untill the patients were seriously ill. Also if you look at the study, you will see that those given HCQ were older, and had more co-morbidities than the non-HCQ treated patients.
“that those given HCQ were older, and had more co-morbidities than the non-HCQ treated patients”
Average age HCQ 65.5 years, vs 64 years non. But those given HCQ+Az averaged 61.4 years. Both classes getting HCQ did worse on outcome or hazard ratio than those getting nothing (Az alone did better). The hazard ratio takes into account other risk factors.
Practically everybody in the HCQ group had mild or moderate ADRS; only a few patients in the non-HCQ group had a mild ADRS.
HCQ group had 10x rate of hypertension.
HCQ was given too late.
Lastly, the “study” counted death and intubation as the same outcome. Guess what? There was significantly lower % of death outcome in the HCQ group compared with non-HCQ. The authors “forgot”to mention that in the article.
“There was significantly lower % of death outcome in the HCQ group compared with non-HCQ. “
No, in all cases HCQ was associated with more deaths:
“From this model, estimated direct-adjusted mortality at 21 days was 22.5% (95% CI, 19.7%-25.1%) with hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin, 18.9% (95% CI, 14.3%-23.2%) with hydroxychloroquine alone, 10.9% (95% CI, 5.8%-15.6%) with azithromycin alone, and 17.8% (95% CI, 11.1%-23.9%) with neither drug (Figure 2).”
Cardiac arrest was also an HCQ problem
“A greater proportion of patients receiving hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin experienced cardiac arrest (15.5%) and abnormal ECG findings (27.1%), as did those in the hydroxychloroquine alone group (13.7% and 27.3, respectively), compared with azithromycin alone (6.2% and 16.1%, respectively) and neither drug (6.8% and 14.0%, respectively).”
+10!
As I understand, the study was a statistical evaluation of resolved cases. Your point about HCQ being given too late is extremely important. Any proper evaluation of HCQ must address the efficacy of zinc + HCQ. Vitamin D deficiency would also be an important factor to consider when treating the patient.
Yes? I am sure that you think this will cause all here to wail, gnash our teeth, tear out our hair – as we return to huddle in our homes (assuming there is still one to return to), watching our bank balances and pantry stocks diminish with each passing day.
Won’t work, Nick. Sorry, not sorry. All that this study “proves” is that using the wrong treatment kills. A hospitalized patient will not benefit from HCQ + Zn (they will have some benefit from an antibiotic, however). By that point in the progression of the disease, they are in need of massive steroids to attack the inflammation, and oxygen supplementation in one form or another to overcome the respiratory deficit.
Those who did this study should be up for medical malpractice. Both for mistreating the hospitalized patients, and for discouraging a treatment empirically proven to reduce the need for hospitalization. Along with generating hefty medical bills, running into the tens of thousands – the phrase “Merchants of Death” comes to mind.
Peddle the propaganda of the medical malpractitioners elsewhere.
+100!
Won’t help
The guys here are true believers
New York with deaths/M at 1,378 vs USA Total of 245, shoveling COVID=19 cases into homes for the elderly while sending a hospital ship away unused, forgetting about all the ventilators it owns, where nurses cry for their patients, finds Hydroxychloroquine of no use. From elsewhere we hear, from many prominent physicians, of an near perfect record for therapies using this drug.
Smells like Politics From Hell
Oh dear… the much touted NY study that was Cuomo (and Fauci’s) landmark quick response to test hydroxychloroquine as a front-line treatment… and good golly, there is nary a mention of zinc! I cannot find it even in the tally sheet for the ‘non-HCQ/azithromiacin’ substances administered to test patients. Not even on the check list. Who’da thunk it?
Malpractice, meet murder, disguised in plain sight as simple blundering ignorance.
It’s shocking and saddening to see how corrupt our culture has become, where government has become so significant that so many people are willing to scheme and lie to get the political outcomes they think “right.” This is what happened among the elites when church versus state — and church versus church — vied for secular authority. This is what our Founders worked so hard — and sacrificed their lives — to eliminate: government as overweaning influence on everyday life.
Isn’t it interesting that no polling organization has taken a poll of hospital physicians involved in dealing with COVID-19 patients asking their opinions of what therapies are being used and which appear to work and how? Doing so just might get in the way of what Governors want: to tell us (and physicians) what we must do and what we cannot do in dealing with COVID-19.
I’m with Elon Musk — tell the authorities to go stuff themselves.
re: “Isn’t it interesting that no polling organization has taken a poll of hospital physicians involved in dealing with COVID-19 patients asking their opinions of what therapies are being used and which appear to work and how?”
There was this poll by Sermo back in early April and reported in the NY Post –
“Hydroxychloroquine rated ‘most effective’ coronavirus treatment, poll of doctors finds”
By Natalie O’Neill April 2, 2020
https://nypost.com/2020/04/02/hydroxychloroquine-most-effective-coronavirus-treatment-poll/
Excerpt: Of the 6,227 physicians surveyed in 30 countries, 37 percent rated hydroxychloroquine the “most effective therapy” for combating the potentially deadly illness, according to the results released Thursday.
The survey, conducted by the global health care polling company Sermo, also found that 23 percent of medical professionals had prescribed the drug in the US — far less than other countries.
“Outside the US, hydroxychloroquine was equally used for diagnosed patients with mild to severe symptoms whereas in the US it was most commonly used for high risk diagnosed patients,” the survey found.
So, lying MSM killed thousands of New Yorkers
MSM works tirelessly to push New York to having highest death
per million in the entire world
Right!
Planned Pathogen. HCQ+AZ is an actual disinfectant in widespread use, which while it will not reverse organ damage, it will abort the virus and mitigate its progress when administered early. HCQ+AZ is a credible choice and provides an essential service to normalize viability and reduce excess deaths.
This article does not discuss the use of zinc with HCQ. The combination is the treatment, not HCQ alone.
New insights on the antiviral effects of chloroquine against coronavirus: what to expect for COVID-19?
The multiple molecular mechanisms by which chloroquine can achieve such results remain to be further explored. … preliminary data indicate that chloroquine interferes with SARS-CoV-2 attempts to acidify the lysosomes and presumably inhibits cathepsins, which require a low pH for optimal cleavage of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein
Zn2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture
This articles discusses the attack on HCQ. As the treatment, HCQ+AZ+Zn seems to be the most promising (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1), but HCQ+AZ is the best tested.
“The use of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 already had scientific support”
If you look at the stats for this result you see that they are completely inadequate. They tested everything that was in the cabinet to see if it would help, and reported the few that appeared to work.
HCQ was already proven to be effective against SARS in vitro in 2005. It was an obvious candidate for SARS-2: The Sequel.
Gasoline is effective in vitro to kill almost any virus.
Millions or tens of millions of people continuously take HCQ for years. How about gasoline?
ANASTASIA LIN | WE WOULD START A NEW COLD WAR WITH CHINA (3/6) | OXFORD UNION
561,244 views
•Mar 31, 2020
Mr. MacRae. How sad that that apparently intelligent young woman was forced to dress like that for a serious debate. Her costume made it difficult to take her seriously, to respect her enough to listen. I thought we women had come farther than that… . Pitiful.
Attire affects perception. That is why criminal defense attorneys always have their male clients wear a suit to court. She would come off to a jury as an air-headed bimbo. No matter what she said.
Either this young lady needs some guidance in how to dress to be heard, or the rules of that debate society are in need of revision.
And I suspect it is the latter, for she has, almost to a fault, mastered the deep voice that many women public speakers adopt to gain respect (“lower and slower” is their slogan).
Appearance subconsciously predisposes, Janice. You are correct in that she might come off to a jury as an air-headed bimbo – that is not a dress that would be worn to court (more on that below). The venue is not a court, though. Look at the other females in the video – and the males. They are all wearing, like her, what is called “evening dress.” She is not inappropriately dressed in that venue.
Note about lawyers in court. Trial lawyers, for the most part, dress for the anticipated judge – or the jury, if there is one. (Young and attractive) female trial lawyers push the limits on decorum if they are to be in front of a male judge. Sadly, it works; not a guarantee of course, but it gives them an edge.
Male trial lawyers are generally older, and also tend to get the jury trials that are assigned to the more experienced – a group of jurors are harder to “work” than a single judge. They also do the appearance game; I know several who carefully add tints of gray to their hair – it enhances their “gravitas.”
I’m not saying that any of this should work – only that it does work.
Janice. The wrong tree. It’s beautiful eyes that distract me. But there’s a simple remedy: close your eyes and listen.
Thanks for posting this Allan
As an interesting sidelight, according to Chandler, Principles of Parasitology, 1949, stated that “….in 1640, a countess returning to Europe from Peru brought with her some bark from a cinchona tree [contains alkaloids effective against malaria, best quinine], an infusion of which had been used by the native Indians to cure an attack of malaria.” He goes on to discuss advantages and disadvantages, widespread use in WWII, and the tremendous effort and expense then to improve controls of malaria [“more intensive research…than toward any project except the atomic bomb” ]. Only knowing that makes one suspect that it would be fairly well known by now. I have a relative taking a form of it.
Interesting study starting May 1, 2020.
A computer-based software will randomise participants 1:1:1 to either receive; hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc and standard medical care; favipiravir and standard medical care or standard medical care alone.
The allocated medical regime will commence for 10 days. Research blood, sputum nose swab and urine samples will be collected at baseline, as well as between day 5 and 10, and between day 14 and 28 to enable comparative analyses.
A COVID-19 antibody test will also be performed 14-28 days after randomisation. In the event of clinically indicated bronchoscopy taking place within 28 days of consent then additional bronchoscopy washing and brushing samples and paired blood sample will be taken for research purposes If a participant is discharged before one of the latter time points, they will be required to return to hospital (provided they are well enough) for the collection of repeat samples.
https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04373733
HCQ is Trumps cured cancer moment. The left is acting like a cornered animal… my hope is that they the cockroaches will be exposed to sunshine… with no dark corners left to hide –as we watch them implode.
Mario,
Trump started promoting HCQ on the 19th of March at which time the total number of deaths in the
US was 160. The total number of deaths is now over 80 thousand and rising. This is no sign of a cured
cancer moment in the data at all. He has also tried suggesting people inject disinfectant but that doesn’t
mean that that would be a good idea.
Izaak: Evidently you lack a level of cognizance needed to understand.
You’re deluded by what Nancy Pelosi said about injecting Lysol. That you think Trump said that disqualifies you from having an opinion.
The fact that there is this level of resistance of widespread use proves my point. But I can see that is lost on you. Because it works, the use of it will be avoided, until the double blind tests can be completed.
Mario,
Trump has no idea about COVID-19 or possible treatments. He has gone from saying
that “it will disappear” on Feb the 17th, to saying that:
“And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs”.
On May 9th he stated: “I feel about vaccines like I feel about tests: This is going to go away without a vaccine,” Trump said. “It’s going to go away, and we’re not going to see it again, hopefully, after a period of time.”
He also doesn’t appear to understand that people can get infected after getting tested. After Katie Miller tested positive Trump said:
“This is why the whole concept of tests aren’t necessarily great. The tests are perfect but something can happen between a test where it’s good and then something happens. And all of a sudden she was tested very recently and tested negative and then today I guess for some reason she tested positive.”
Clearly any accurate medical advice Trump gives is by pure chance since he seems to have no idea about the
virus or infection in general and doesn’t know the difference between a virus and a bacteria.
You’re confused about the basic meaning of words and did not make the case you think you made. And you failed at responding to my post in spectacular fashion.
Izaak you suffer from TDS 🙁
Carbolic acid is a disinfectant. Go read up on its use in the lings. Maybe Trump knows more than you do. He has a lot of doctors advising him.
Izaak is a troll. Attention is what he wants. Just ignore him….
Now Schumer is going after any VA physician that dared prescribe any veteran HCQ based on their own medical assessment and the consent of the patient.
Didn’t these doctors know that when they joined the VA they still their souls to the political minders?
HCQ is much more effective when given EARLY – and (almost?) all retrospective hospital studies and in-hospital clinical trials are starting LATE (and in many cases TOO late – when patient has ARDS or is close to that).
There’s also a significant empirical evidence that combination of HCQ and zinc is significantly more effective than just HCQ – however all or most published studies/papers don’t even mention zinc so almost certainly it wasn’t given.
Look up “Vladimir Zelenko” on youtube.com – he treated hundreds of patients in NY state with combination of HCQ+zinc+AZT and he started treatments EARLY when symptoms appears – not when patient can’t breath without oxygen or ventilator. His results (outcomes) are about 10 times better than in best hospitals treating COVID19 patients. And complete set of medications for that entire treatment cost something like $20 per person (not per day or per tablet or per mg etc).
Aye and there’s the rub. The criminal cabal running medicine in US wants multiple tens of thousands of dollars per patient. And the sheep bend over and say “Thank you sir , may I have another.”
I have never heard of another illness where treatment is withheld until the patient, sorry, customer, is at death’s door.
I have posted about the EVMS protocol before.
Here is the blog of the author that wrote the article in the American Spectator. It starts with an interview of Dr Marik with the article that follows.
https://knowledgeisgood.net/2020/05/02/a-report-from-the-front/
Read the full protocol to really understand the phases of the desease
Evms.edu/covidcare
Good video you posted elsewhere.
Running stats from Dr. Prof. Didier Raoult’s organisation: https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/covid-19/
Data in image format:
Who in their ever loving minds would use two reds for anything on a map? My almost 60 year old eyes can’t see a difference between those two reds. How about red and blue? Green and yellow? Or at least red and pink. One of the big things I learned in my Geographic Information Systems classes was the importance of design and color use so that information on maps and graphs are discernible.
Little regard often is given by ‘chart-ists’ to ppl with so-called “color blindness” as well, ppl such as myself whose eyes cannot differentiate between red and green for instance …
On other threads a guy claims chloroquine is a metabolite of HCQ.
Leo claims the reverse is true.
Both claims are completely false.
Sad WUWT is allowing utter nonsense to be published here.
Utter nonsense is published virtually everywhere.
WUWT has an excellent comment section which allows some sorting out, as you have just attempted. Try sorting out the falsehoods on many liberal sites. Some don’t even allow comments (preferring to stick to propagandizing without rebuttal) and of those that do, the quality is usually nowhere near the quality of the comments here.
26 February:
“UK bans parallel export of two COVID-19 treatment candidates to protect national supply”
https://ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/uk-bans-parallel-export-of-two-covid19-treatment-candidates.html
25 March
“Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine not licensed for coronavirus (COVID-19) treatment ”
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chloroquine-and-hydroxychloroquine-not-licensed-for-coronavirus-covid-19-treatment
And they rationed the oxygen too.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/17/exclusive-nhs-rationing-oxygen-doctors-instructed-downgrade/
The patients in the study referenced by Nick were not equally sick. Thr section of the report which begins with this sect is very informative:
Patients receiving hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine alone were more likely to be obese and have diabetes than those in the groups receiving azithromycin alone and neither drug. Patients receiving hydroxychloroquine alone had the highest levels of chronic lung disease (25.1%) and cardiovascular conditions (36.5%)
It goes on to describe the % put on ICU ventilators, and also the timing of the introduction of the medication after admission. The study reveals how bad its methodolgy was, saying that the sickest patients, and with the most comorbidities, were the ones put on hydroxychloroquine.
Also worthy of note, the study does not say the treatment received by those who did not receive either HCQ or AZM.
Here is a link not very scientific. It seems actual studies have been google snuffed as there was over 100 started.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8184259/Malaria-drug-hydroxychloroquine-effective-coronavirus-treatment-currently-available.html
” It seems actual studies have been google snuffed as there was over 100 started.”
Well that pretty much tells us all we need to know. The Deep State is no even bothering to hide anymore.
Face it, if HCQ+ didn’t work, front line doctors would have stopped using it long ago.
just like people stopped using homeopathy centuries ago when it was shown to be ineffective. Or people stopped researching cold fusion. People can convince themselves of almost anything and Doctors are perhaps the worse for that.
For the record I have no idea if HCQ+ works or if it doesn’t but then nobody does since there has not
been enough time for anybody to do a proper study. Some preliminary studies do suggest that it increases
the fatality rate which is reason for caution and certainly there doesn’t seem to be enough evidence of absence of harm to suggest giving it to everyone just in case.
Any study that does not deconvolve the viral part from immune system going open loop means nothing…
As far as I am concerned anyone in the FDA, WHO, CDC, …. who come down with covid should automaticly be install in a study of there choice. They automaticly get the placebo. Blind studies in the middle of a pandemic are immoral…
Yes.
re: “Or people stopped researching cold fusion.”
You need a better 2nd example; research, with positive results, continues (ALTHOUGH with a black eye delivered by ‘experimenters’ early-on who did not closely follow replication protocols.)
I would recommend looking up the IAP lectures delivered at MIT on this subject by Drs Hagelstein and Swartz on this subject.
Isaak, “People can convince themselves of almost anything”
The irony …
That’s really a dumb comment. So, because you don’t know whether or not HCQ+ works, nobody does. And you still peddle the falsehood about it increasing the fatality rate.
“People can convince themselves of almost anything …”
Izzak, stand in front of your bathroom mirror and repeat 7 times.
(Izzak, you are “people”)
“In recent weeks, Raoult has in fact tempered his claims about the virtues of his treatment regimen. The published, peer-reviewed version of the final study noted that another two patients had died, bringing the total to 10. Where the earlier version called the drugs “safe and efficient,” they were now described merely as “safe.”
He has shown flickers of what appears to be doubt. In one interview, Raoult quoted Camus, from the fatalistic coda of “The Stranger,” hoping that “on the day of my execution there should be a huge crowd of spectators, and that they should greet me with howls of hatred.”
“I don’t trust popularity,” he told the interviewer. “When too many people think you’re wonderful, you should start to wonder.” His initial YouTube video, “Coronavirus: Game Over!” has also been renamed. The new language is more measured, and in place of the exclamation point there now stands a question mark”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/12/magazine/didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine.html?auth=link-dismiss-google1tap
Don’t believe what the New York Times say.
YouTube might have forced Dr. Raoult to change the video. It would be interesting to ask him.
I never thought that I would see states in the US purposely killing people for political gain. I just pray the the voters are smart enough to understand what is happening. If nor we are doomed as a nation.
To be fair it is not the “states” that are purposely denying HCQ use and thus increasing fatalities. It is the Democrat Party governors, their administrations, the MSM, and Censor Tech giants like Google and Facebook. The enormous political power arrayed against this life-saving drug is frightening.
What ever happened to the sanctity of the doctor-patient relationship? Why is it that so many political animals wish to dictate what my doctor may prescribe to me? It’s really none of their business.
This nation was founded as a free country wherein the God-given rights of the individual were guaranteed and protected by our government. Today every power-hungry authoritarian thinks their opinion supersedes individual rights, without question, as if the very concept of individual rights has completely disappeared.
That is the real lesson of this pandemic. What we were as a nation is gone. The New Normal is a mockery of our founding principles.
Mike,
+1.
Abortion is between a patient and their doctor. Treatment for covid-19 is between the government and the patient.
Democrat hypocrisy at its finest.
Politicians have been executing innocent people in the US for years in order to be seen as being
“tough on crime”. But I doubt there is a conspiracy of the size and scope you are suggesting.
Dear Mr. Walton (obviously not your real name),
Please note the essay by Mr. Goldstein reports a media operation was launched to deny this treatment to the public.. And that the governors of various states restricted the use of HCQ. And that Google blocked access to scientific papers and videos recommending HCQ as a treatment.
I submit that in a FREE country the use of any medicine is a decision to be made by doctor and patient, not you, not governors, not the President, not even the FDA. Media slam campaigns are allowed, short of libel, but censorship is not.
For some reason many people do not agree. They think they should be the arbiters of medical treatments, even though they are not doctors nor the patients. That is more than hubris. It is an imposition on the fundamental rights of other individuals.
Similarly, lockdowns, termination of businesses, de facto house arrest, police enforcement of extralegal decrees, banning church services and other assemblies, censorship of free speech, and other such abrogations are violations of fundamental rights guaranteed by the US Constitution.
You may approve of all that. You are free to express your approval only because this is (or was) a FREE country with protected rights. Without those rights, your speech may be squelched. Your freedom to assemble, pursue income, travel, and generally go about your private business may also be compromised.
I agree with Mr. Goldstein that the crackdown on HCQ resulted in thousands of deaths. People who could have been saved by early intervention were denied that drug for political reasons. There was a cost in lives when individual rights were discarded. There will also be a cost to the economy that will take more lives and ruin many.
Freedom is not free. The destruction of freedom has serious repercussions and consequences. I doubt this society will ever recover, certainly not the lives lost, nor the wealth lost, and especially not the freedom lost.
Good points all, Mike.
And, of course, Mr. “Walton” will now disappear, and fail to answer any of your arguments. Typical gutless troll.
Izaak, “there (sic) are not as bad as you suggest since everyone knows the work and how to get access to them.”
Great ethical outlook, Izaak. So criminality is not so bad when others know how to survive despite it.
I’d like to see that plea fly in court. ‘Your honor, it’s true my client burned down the plaintiff’s house. But it’s not so bad since plaintiff has relatives with houses.’
Your argument about treatment is a fatuous ramble., that ignores the substance of Mike’s position. Namely that doctors and patients are free to decide their course of treatment. You’d have commissars of medicine sitting in doctors’ offices deciding whether to permit or forbid a treatment. Welcome to Izaak World — a happy land where everyone must get Izaak’s approval for everything.
Izaak, “The use of quarantine is legally protected and has always been recognised as a legitimate power of the state.”
And “recognised” by whom? Arguing legitimacy from recognition by the undefined is vacuous.
Welcome to America, Izaak, where the state has no power — no power — that is not Constitutionally granted by the citizens.
A general quarantine of all the citizens is in fact without any Constitutional merit. One can quarantine the contagious sick. Quarantining the healthy is tyranny.
Finally, your argument about conspiracies is a straw man. Mike’s brief is that many lives were lost due to political stupidity and hubris. The emergence of so many tin-plated little dictators shows the substance of Mike’s case.
Mike,
A number of comments:
“And that Google blocked access to scientific papers and videos” — google
has not blocked access to scientific papers. It has blocked access to non-peer reviewed abstracts that claim without valid proof that particular treatments are effective. I personally disagree with google’s actions here but there are not as bad as you suggest since everyone knows the work and how to get access to them.
And do you really believe that “in a FREE country the use of any medicine is a decision to be made by doctor and patient, not you, not governors, not the President, not even the FDA.” Would you for example approve of people taking abortifacient or morphine with no oversight? You appear to be arguing for legalised abortion and euthanasia since in a free country doctors are free to prescribe any medicines they like. And who gets to determine what is a medicine and whether or not it is even remotely safe? What is the role of drug companies in this? Can they claim anything is a medicine and that doctors can prescribe it for any condition whatsoever? Nor have you mentioned the issue of cost, even if doctors are allowed to prescribe medicines many of which are too expensive for most people (especially the latest anti-cancer drugs). Again you are letting drug companies decide who gets to live and die depending on their ability to pay for the medicine.
Also despite what you claim lockdowns appear to be constitutional. The use of quarantine is legally protected and has always been recognised as a legitimate power of the state.
Finally there is no evidence that there is a massive conspiracy to deny millions of
US citizens access to life saving drugs for political reasons. To claim that politicians are really ready to let thousands of people die just to influence an upcoming election
is a huge claim and requires evidence. So far none has been presented.
No kidding Izaak, Obama won a peace prize while droning brown people in the Middle East.
Several of those states with democratic governors forced nursing home to accept coronavirus patients.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/coronavirus-spreads-new-york-nursing-home-forced-take-recovering-patients-n1191811
Map would be more meaningful if it was done on a city population or better yet population density basis. Area maps are misleading, almost as bad as pie charts. Unless, of course, the intent is to scare folks with big blotches of colours. Edward Tufte rules!!!
I thought I remembered something about Dr. Fauci’s remdesivir conflict of interest. (it was some comments on this WUWT story) I googled. Nothing. Duckduckgo.com showed a bunch. Yahoo.com showed some stuff. Then I remembered dogpile.com. It shows lots of stuff.
I have no way of knowing if the accusations against Fauci are, or are not, baseless. What is blatantly obvious is the extent of Google’s censorship. Some of my friends in the free software community think Google is evil. Google hasn’t done anything lately to make me think otherwise. Censorship is the enemy of democracy.
I was a little surprised the other day when I was listening to a news conference by the state public health officials in Oklahoma, and a reporter asked the health official what the policy was on hydrochloroquine, and the official did not seem very familiar with hydrochloroquine, saying something like “we are looking into it”. Damn fella! *You’re* the “Health” official, and you don’t know about hydrochloroquine? This doesn’t instill confidence.
The governor of Oklahoma announced today that Oklahoma would be ready to move to “Phase Two” of the opening of the Oklahoma economy beginning May 15.
We’ve been going for about two weeks in Oklahoma with relaxed restrictions and so far, so good. We aren’t seeing any spikes in infections. Of course, it’s early yet.
We’re on the way back!
What’s the incubation period? About two weeks?
Yeah, it’s about two weeks. We ought to be hearing something soon about how the infection rates are doing. That’s the whole purpose of this exercise..
Just for the record, I don’t believe it was President Trump who began the discussions about HCQ and “Z-packs” (azythromycin) as a treatment for the Wuhan coronavirus. I first saw that in a tweet from a couple of doctors in Italy, retweeted by Elon Musk. THEN Trump started talking about it.
The Italian doctors were saying that patients were making an almost miraculous recovery; so it’s not surprising that Trump started talking about it.
Well! Mr. Goldstein! 🙂 You are clearly on to something important, here.
Aside from all the EXCELLENT reporting by you and by the well-informed the commenters on this thread, who your opponents are here is powerful evidence for your case.
The extent to which you are taking flak from those who all line up on the pro-AGW side (Pool, Walton, St0kes, Phildot, et al.) speaks volumes. The same devotees of the unskilled GCMs, the same ones who year after year slavishly promote the unsupported-by-data conjecture that we should all follow the “The Precautionary Principle” and relegate humans to the misery of a non-petroleum economy, are here LOUDLY blustering against trying a possible cure with potential side effects far less damaging than what they push.
Good, job, Goldstein!
Your opponents are proving your case for you (both by their inanities and by the mere fact that such people are arguing against you).
Aaaarrrgh. Why in the WORLD did that 9:27pm comment go into moderation (the kind where you get the warning message about it). Aaaaaaaaaa. This site is so frustrating!!!!
“NS” is a curiously protected person here, Janice. Very hard to bring the hammer down on his garbage. Even obfuscating the name, you can still get wiped.
This stuff was jumped on gleefully by the BBC over here in the UK- Trump pushing treatment that we now know doesn’t work, whilst completely ignoring the utter failure of the EU to even agree on any form of action or stimulus whatsoever. I was very surprised by this- the BBC is usually soooo balanced and fair minded…
Video “Hydroxychloroquine versus Remdesivir”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBma_0oAiMI
The part about Senegal should be shocking. A very poor country bests the west. They can test everybody, quickly. They can use HCQ, very successfully.
Leo
A great article for identifying the manipulation, blocking of products, and proving the complete sellout of governance in the USA to industrial and banking entities, and high worth groups. Bill Gates father would be proud of him.
Your article is about corruption, and the manifestation of interference to allow covid19 death rates to spiral.
When the incentive is $13000 per death certificate with covid19 as cause, and $39000 if they are put on ventilator prior to death, that shows real intent. New York, where else could it have happened. The center of corruption.
Media, websites, blogs, analysis and discussion for over three months is all about covid19. Daily Government updates create urgency and immediacy, this is a fast evolving virus. We have no vaccine, the human immune system wont create antibodies was constant.
In the background, reality, it appears that this is another bank bailout, and other acts of greed and control opportunity. Banks started requiring huge volumes of cash mid last year and it excellerated. The financial virus that brought down the banking system 07/08 is still out there, its quite interesting what the Fed reserve has been doing with American taxpayers funds. Covid19 is insignificant to what has been going on over at the Fed.
https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/05/congress-sets-up-taxpayers-to-eat-454-billion-of-wall-streets-losses-where-is-the-outrage/
Tony Fauci told everybody that a pandemic was coming. He should have known, he had both hands in it.
https://gumc.georgetown.edu/gumc-stories/global-health-experts-advise-advance-planning-for-inevitable-pandemic/#
The distraction and lock down, will have immeasurable negative side affects on society.
Allegations of a $10m bribe to Nigerian Congress to allow fast tracking of new vaccines. What could go wrong in a country like that.
https://dailypost.ng/2020/05/04/bill-gate-offered-house-of-reps-10m-bribe-for-speedy-passage-of-compulsory-vaccine-bill-cupp-alleges/
Did they leave a bank account number and branch to deposit the $10 million into Oz? They are usually very helpful like than in Nigeria…. 🙂
https://aapsonline.org/evidence-hydroxychloroquine/
“Where’s the Evidence on COVID-19 Treatment?
Toto Thank you for the link. It is unbelievable that the U.S. heath care system is not even up to 3rd world status.
Another drug that is being tried for coronavirus is Ivermectin. Lab studies show anti-viral activity in vitro. Together with zinc, vitamin D and vitamin C. Studies have shown a low vitamin D level is associated with a higher mortality.
More on ivermectin from Derek Lowe’s blog ‘In the Pipeline’
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/05/11/whats-up-with-ivermectin
So if Grampa dies of Covid19 in one of those states that has managed to deny him Chloroquine can we expect to see lawsuits?
No, you won’t see any successful lawsuits for not using hydrochloroquine. That’s because hydrochloroquine has not yet been officially found to be effective for use on the Wuhan virus.
There should be results from several clinical trials of hydrochloroquine in the next few weeks. We’ll have a better understanding of its effectiveness, or lack thereof, then.
JOINT STATEMENT OF THE BOARD OF OSTEOPATHIC LICENSURE AND THE BOARD OF LICENSURE IN MEDICINE ON PRESCRIBING CHLOROQUINE, HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE, AND AZITHROMYCIN
There have been reports nationally as well as in Maine that physicians or physician assistants are prescribing chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin to prevent or treat COVID-19, and they are prescribing these medications for themselves, family members, or for patients without symptoms or a COVID-19 diagnosis. Such activity may lead to stockpiling of medication, inappropriate use, and potential drug shortages for patients with a legitimate need for these medications.
During this coronavirus emergency, physicians and physician assistants must carefully follow established guidance and clinical evidence in making prescribing and treatment decisions. On March 28, 2020, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued an Emergency Use Authorization for use of oral formulations of chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine sulfate to be prescribed by doctors for hospitalked adult and adolescent patients.
IN ORDER TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE, MAINE PHYSICIANS AND PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS ARE REMINDED THAT:
Absent acute or emergency circumstances, prescribing for oneself or family members is considered unethical and unprofessional conduct. It may also violate applicable Board rules.
Prescribing chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, and azithromycin for prophylactic purposes in response to the COVID-19 outbreak may be considered unprofessional conduct, may negatively impact drug supplies impacting the health of existing patients who are established on these medications for treatment of their disease, and may lead to improper use which can cause patient harm.
Physicians and physician assistants are reminded to prescribe appropriately and to consider medication side effects, drug interactions, contraindications, and appropriate monitoring requirements (e.g. laboratory and cardiac testing). Meeting appropriate monitoring requirements for patients may be limited or restricted during this pandemic. You must exercise sound professional judgment and adhere to evidence-based standards of practice in making your prescribing and treatment decisions.
“JOINT STATEMENT OF THE BOARD”
ROLF @ ‘boards’ of anything.
Appeal to (idiotic) Authority.
re: “During this coronavirus emergency, physicians … must carefully follow established … . On March 28, 2020, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued… .
IN ORDER TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE, MAINE PHYSICIANS … ARE REMINDED THAT:
Absent acute or emergency circumstances, prescribing for oneself or family members is considered unethical and unprofessional conduct. It may also violate applicable Board rules.
Prescribing chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, and azithromycin for prophylactic purposes in response to the COVID-19 outbreak may be considered unprofessional conduct … ”
These sorts of ‘warnings’ by so-called governing or licensing ‘boards’ does nothing except drive the use of such drugs underground. No one says anything, no positive (or negative!) results are announced, no communiques are issued and CERTAINLY no correspondence ‘up’ the so-called ‘chain of command’ results, so the ‘board’ remains isolated in their (mistaken) top-down, heavy-handed impositions on practicing clinicians (doctors).
Good job, ‘board’, and welcome to the ‘dark ages’ once again …
In France, family doctors have been forbidden to prescribe HCQ to treat SARS-COV2. In France, before this ban, HCQ has been over the counter for decades and its side effects are perfectly well known.
The advocates of this ban have finantial interests with other drugs :
https://www.marianne.net/politique/ambiguite-gouvernementale-liens-d-interets-au-sommet-de-l-etat-enquete-sur-la-guerre
Now compare the (catastrophic) national fatality ratios in France with the data at the UHI Méditerranée and the AP-HM (public hospitals in Marseille) :
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/covid-19/
The AP-HM+UHI results are in the same ballpark as other countries that used HCQ (or equivalent Nivaquin) :
China, South-Korea, Vietnam, Iceland, Greece, Pakistan, India, Malaisia, Turkey, Marocco, Algeria, etc. to name a few.
At least in France, this is nothing else than a mass murder committed by goons with financial interests.
Merci, Petit Barde (and others posting about Remdesevir, etc.). You all answered a question I have had for awhile now about this issue. “Who is benefiting from artificially restricting this product’s market share?”
cui bono
Disgusting.
One issue to consider is the cost of HCQ (pennies per dose) versus Redesivir at over $4,000 per dose. There is little money to be made with HCQ, but $100s of Billions to be made by Gilead with Remdesivir. HCQ is very cheap and many studues show that it is effective. Redesivir is breathtakingly expensive. Perhaps the anti-HCQ folks have a cozy relationship with Gilead.
Well, I don’t disagree with anything you said but I would point out that there must be something of value in hydrochloroquine production because there are numerous companies producing this drug, and I have to assume they are making money, or they wouldn’t be making it.
There is only one currently recruiting clinical trial for hydroxychloroquine + zinc. It is in Turkey, and is prophylactic for healthcare workers.
None of the other registered clinical trials involving those two drugs (Tunisia, UK, NY, and CA) have started recruiting.
So if it takes a clinical trial to get a treatment approved, the approval of this combination has not even gotten underway, and may never. If it is never approved, doctors will never dare prescribe it because of the furor.
If this combination works we may never know. Because nobody is testing it now, and they may never.
Quercetin is a zinc ionophore. We are taking Quercetin and zinc prophylactically starting the day before we go into the public. They are over the counter. Nobody can stop us. If this simple combination really works I feel sorry for the people who are dying while they obediently wait for a copacetic clinical trial of HCQ + Zn that is never going to happen.
I think the results of a Chinese clinical trial of hydrochloroquine is due at the end of May.
Is it HCQ + zinc?
An ionophore without a target is like a car without a driver. People don’t naturally have these quantities of zinc in their system, it’s not even healthy on a long-term basis.
Quercetin is healthy long term. It’s almost magical. Zn if you eat red meat… and easy to get. I recommend CA Mg Zn combo… I take 1 3x a day and that comes out to about 15mg / day.
Vit D most important if you don’t get ample sun. I take 6000 IU / day unless I spent outdoor time.
Leftists’ demonization of HQC is just another example of how many of them, couldn’t care less about the suffering many Wuhan flu patients experience.
Leftists’ primary objective is to promote their insane Trump Derangement Syndrome psychosis and to politicize everything in an effort to make sure Trump doesn’t win re-election.
If that means some Wuhan flu patients have to die that could have survived if treated with the HQC drug regimen, so be it…” You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.”
There is overwhelming evidence the HQC/Azithromycin/Zn drug regimen is an effective treatment of the Wuhan flu, providing it is administered immediately after flu symptoms appear.
When will Leftists start showing some real compassion rather than merely performing vapid virtue signally to make themselves appear to be caring.
SAMURAI – 11:46 pm
“You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.”
One good quote deserves another:
“Power grows out of the barrel of a gun”
Who allowed you to be the self-appointed cook?
Wasn’t Rita Wilson Hanks treated with chloroquine when she became ill with WCV19? Hmmm—One of the self styled elite, very very rich, treatment in a First World hospital, and she survived. But we are told the treatment is ineffective for the peasantry. Right.
The truth is Big Pharma had to play down the effectiveness of the cheap drug HCQ because they were desperate to earn a fortune from a more expensive drug. It was a race against time for which they could no longer wait, and Big Pharma front-man, Dr Fauci, finally revealed the premature FDA approved REMDESIVIR as a treatment, despite lack of clinical trials that saw the FDA approve it in record time.
So many conspiracy theories, so little time. Where does the TriLateral Commission fit into this?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1992/04/25/beware-the-trilateral-commission/59c48198-9479-4c80-a70a-a1518b5bcfff/
“If a member of the Council on Foreign Relations leaves Chicago on a train headed west at 50 MPH and a member of the Trilateral Commission leaves San Francisco on a train headed east at 60 MPH, how long does it take for them to take over the world?”
– old joke
Out of 65,000 Italian Lupus/RA patients taking hydroxychloroquine, 20 tested positive for Covid-19 and zero had ICU visits or death.
Citation.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/in-italy-practically-nobody-who-takes-hydroxychloroquine-for-lupus-or-rheumatoid-arthritis-got-cv/
Well, it turns out now that Shelley Luther, the Dallas Texas, Hair Salon owner who defied the lockdown rules claiming she didn’t have money to feed her children, and got a seven day jail sentence, had actually applied for the Paycheck Protection Program and had been approved for it and received money from the program *two days before* she went before the judge. So when she stood there and told the judge her children were hungry because she didn’t have any money, she wasn’t telling the truth. She just did an interview on Fox where she disclosed these facts.
The Libertarians are falling all over themselves praising her. It’s kind of pathetic. I guess they think Shelley is special and all the other Hair Salon owners that Shelley wanted to go in front of, can go fish.
And all Shelley had to do was wait one more week and her business could have opened without controversy, and she had the money in her pocket to last another week, but she decided it was a better idea to stand in court and defy the rules. I wouldn’t even call that selfish, I would call it clueless. If the judge hadn’t sentenced her to jail, she wouldn’t be making the rounds of the tv shows now.
I don’t think it is a good idea to reward this kind of behavior. Libertarians think it is a good idea because they think all defiance of goverment is a good idea, but when you promote such things, you have to take into consideration that there are people who don’t get all the nuance about defying the government, and take a shorter route like arming themsevles and possibly harming innocent citizens because they have been agitated to think that the government is oppressing them and they have to fight back, and not with words.
Promoting anarchy is insane, and that’s what I see a lot of people on the Right doing right now. They may not consider that they are doing so, but the consequences of their words may lead to that.
At least Sean Hannity had the common sense to condemn the protestors who showed up at the Michigan state capitol with rifles strapped across their backs.
As Sean said, there was no need for that. If these guys felt vulnerable they could have carried a concealed weapon. Instead, they strap a rifle across their back and immediately turn 99 percent of the people off. The rifles are pure intimidation tactics and are counterproductive to any cause that requires debate. These morons thought it was a good idea. I wonder why?
re: “And all Shelley had to do was wait one more week and her business could have opened without controversy”
Yeah, and the mortgage payment is STILL DUE whenever it was “due”.
I don’t want to hear your weak, lazy rationalizations on anything.
You’re the one ALWAYS harping on Rush for some perceived infraction of rules of propriety known only you.
Jim, I can tell you like Rush a lot and you take my criticisms of him personally. I can understand that. I’ve been a life-long fan of Rush and love him dearly. That’s why it bothers me so much to see him misunderstand the Wuhan virus situation and then create a false reality out of the misconception and then pass that misconception on to the world..
Rush trashes the virus computer models without understanding them, and then creates a conspiracy theory about a nefarious Dr. Fauci and the “Scarf Lady” (Rush’s derisive decription of Dr. Birx) foisting a fake virus crisis on Trump and the nation, and now Rush is claiming that Democrat governors are deliberately slow-walking the economic recovery.
So even though I love Rush, I have to speak up when I think he is wrong and is misleading a lot of folks through his misunderstanding of the situation. Rush is right 99.7 percent of the time (certified), but that leaves a little room for him to be wrong once in a while.
I was hoping that since segments of the economy are starting to open up, that he would calm down a little, but he hasn’t so far. Maybe once he sees the economy starting to roll, he’ll relax and can forget about virus computer models and focus on showing us just how criminal the Obama administration and the Demcrats were and are with regard to trying to overthrow a legitimate presidential election. I *like* hearing him rant about that, because he is right as rain on that subject.
I listen to Rush every day. I’m listening to him now.
‘Promoting anarchy is insane, and that’s what I see a lot of people on the Right doing right now.’ And yet this is what everyone on the left does all the time, including inciting violence.
“And yet this is what everyone on the left does all the time, including inciting violence.”
Don’t think I’m excusing the Left for anything.
Source: British Loyalist in 1774.
Thank You, Lord, that the Tom Abbotts of that era did not prevail in their arguments.
Whether the salon owner used a piece of evidence that was incorrect (and it was about her colleagues she made that claim of hungry children, not herself, btw) is NOT the point.
She should never have been shut down in violation of her 14th Amendment rights. The COVID19 edicts are hideously overbroad. People who do not want to enter her salon or anyone else’s business premises are free to stay away.
Defending civil liberties is not to promote anarchy.
Defending our constitutional rights is what every American ought to do.
*********************
And why pick on Ms. Luther? There is a wonderful MALE barber (Karl Manke) in Michigan doing the same thing. His local officials have simply handled the situation more wisely.
(https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2020/05/11/karl-manke-owosso-michigan-barber-court-order/3107462001/ )
***************************
In spite of your disturbingly anti-American values essay above, nevertheless, I leave off writing here still feeling quite peaceful about the state of America, Mr. Abbott. Along with Governor Greg Abbott of Texas, liberty-loving Americans (and, no, I am not a Libertarian) still walk the streets of this land. You should see the support given to Mr. Manke — people driving from over 2 hours away just to get a haircut from him.
Take heart all you truehearted Americans:
AMERICA, THE LAND OF THE FREE, LIVES!
“She should never have been shut down in violation of her 14th Amendment rights. The COVID19 edicts are hideously overbroad. People who do not want to enter her salon or anyone else’s business premises are free to stay away.
Defending civil liberties is not to promote anarchy.”
Well, I hate to argue with you, Janice, but the above sounds like anarchy to me. What you are saying is Shelley and everyone like her should be able to do what they please. Anarchy, Janice.
What about all the other Hair Salon owners who were following the rules? Dont’ they count? Were their kids hungry, too? Should they all have rebelled, too? I’m guessing you would say yes. Anarchy.
And Shelley did use the “hungry kids” gambit to apply to herself. I’m sure that won the hearts of every woman watching her.
So Shelley got the PPP payment; that’s a payment that not only gives Shelley money for herself and her business, but also pays the salaries of any employees, so it’s hard to see how anyone is hungry in this situation, and that doesn’t even take into account that Shelley and all her employees were eligible for the Trump $1200 payment. Somebody ought to ask Shelley if she got her $1200 (in her case $2200 since she has two kids).
Shelley was seeking sympathy with her “feeding the kids” line.
If the Wuhan virus were as deadly as the Ebola virus, I don’t think you would be praising Shelley for exposing others to such a deadly disease. Instead, you would be criticizing her for being so reckless, as would all her other supporters, if they had any sense.
It’s not a good thing to undermine confidence in the government that is trying to protect society from a pandemic, and that’s what you have to do to get people like Shelley to go out and break the rules.
So the question is: Rules? Or no rules? Can our society operate with no rules? I don’t think so.
And the majority of Americans are following the rules and favor following the rules as they see a benefit to society and themselves from doing so. And then we have people like Shelley.
Mr. Abbott, you live in a U.S. state, but you think like someone from a non-U.S. country.
1. “Rules” are not what determine our civil liberties in the U.S.. Those are codified in the Constitution of the United States of America (and in the constitutions of the 50 states).
2. Constitutional law, here, mainly the 14th Am., says that a “rule” cannot be overbroad, cannot restrict a fundamental constitutional right unless there is a compelling state interest and even then, it must be narrowly tailored.
NEITHER are present, here. The data shows that COVID 19 is not a great danger to most people, i.e., no bona fide compelling interest. Further, the lockdown was grossly overbroad.
3. Governor’s orders are not laws.
4. If Americans, especially our judiciary, abided by your slavish obedience to “rules” we would no longer be America: we would be something much different.
Following the rules ki11ed 6 million Jews.
And then, we have people like Ms. Luther and Mr. Manke.
God, bless them!
Trump erred bigly in touting hydroxychloroquine. Had he instead come out against it, the TDS-afflicted Demotard elites, lamestream news cabal, etc. would have instead supported it, thus saving many lives. Shame on him.
If you restricted the use of aspirin to people in hospice, you could make a media report concluding that aspirin kills. The politics of panic.