Looks to me like a system ripe for hacking and fraud that will turn ordinary citizens into criminals.
The test setup is an electronics package outfitted with GPS, wireless internet, and a rating system algorithm that tracks the following things:
- The car’s environmental impact
- The distances driven,
- The route,
- The time it is driven
Supposedly, calculating all this together for a tax is a “fairer” way to assess the impact of the vehicle. Of course the whole idea is to discourage people from driving.
According to the article, the proposal will be introduced slowly as a replacement for the current car and gas tax, however it is most certainly controversial and will be a real test of how far environmentally savvy Dutch citizens will be willing to go to reduce the impact of the car.
Personally, I think it has FAIL written all over it since people really don’t want their personal vehicles to be like taxicabs with meters tracking everywhere you’ve driven. I wonder how long it will be before some citizen takes a hammer to the meter. The more tech savvy will just figure out a way to hack it or fool it.
This is Big Brother (or Big Sister). Have we not all heard from these sorts of people that the problem is carbon? If this is the case, wouldn’t it be more efficient to simply raise the fuel tax ?
Of course it would. What these people desire is personal information. The “smart” thermostat and the “smart” grid are part of the same movement. This information will be used sooner or later to enhance the ability of authorities to control behavior, for our own good of course. Orwell could not even begin to imagine the tools the information age has provided for today’s crop of would-be tyrants.
Johnathan Castle,
Neanderthals! Yes I did that too. Had to do a tripple take before I got it.
It is surprising what we europeans put up with. Here in the UK petrol prices are reaching an all time high of £1.40(pounds) per litre, of which 70p is fuel duty and the 20% value added tax is added, yes we pay tax on tax.
To translate into american, gas is about $8.50 per gallon, of which $6 is tax.
Are these proxies for petrol consumed?
Just for information. The European Union has invested huge sums in its own GPS system that will operate independently of the US system that we all use at the moment. It is called Galileo. The idea was that EU armed forces could then go to war (sorry, operate peace keeping roles) that the USA disapproved of. The costs have proved to be massively larger than expected – no surprises there. The EU has therefore brought China in as a partner. Now that raises all sorts of foreign policy questions, but the point here is that this road charging tax has been suggested in the EU Commission as a way to pay for Galileo. The idea is that the national government levies the tax, then the EU charges the national government to use Galileo for the GPS element of the system.
Nothing to do with the environment, that claim is just a smoke screen. Everything to do with raising tax to pay for something nobody wanted in the first place.
Amy Moritz Ridenour
“Don’t know about the Dutch, but Americans would revolt at the idea of the government recording every place we drive and when.”
They do too. As far as know, this plan is of the table. No majority in Dutch Parliament, too complex, very expensive systemm and many ways to manipulate then system. Dutch government even considered to introduce legislation punishing people harshly if they unintentionally forgot to turn the system on (the toll system was only to be used on highways, not on normal roads). Many Dutch people oppose against this system.
It will also be of interest to see the law of unintended consequences in action.
* routes with lower rates totally clogged with cars while routes with higher rates sit empty
* older cars with no meter installed become worth more than newer cars with the meter
* people maintaining older (far less efficient) cars for just as long as possible rather than buy a new car with higher efficiency but with one of those meters already installed.
* all sorts of lobby groups asking for exemptions for one reason or another. Disabled people who can easily ride in a car, but for whom public transit would be difficult. Emergency vehicles. Volunteer organizations that supply services to the sick, the elderly, the homeless. Religious people who can’t take public transit because of their religion. No such religion? Just wait! Journalists of course, they’ll argue it is a restriction on a free press. I can’t think of any logical reason why it would be, but they’ll find something. Anyone on a fixed income. They can’t afford the extra tax, they’ll die of starvation. We’ll overlook for the moment how they can be both starving and own a car. Anyone who lives in their car. It’s their home, and therefore exempt. That one of course will quickly be extended to people who lives in houses, but allow homeless people to live in their cars. The number of homeless people who suddenly have homes will sky rocket to the point where there aren’t enough homeless people to go around. Some people will try and forge documentation of homeless people who don’t exist. The welfare department of course will ask for an injunction preventing the government that they are a part of from granting the exemption for homeless people on the grounds that it would leave the welfare department with nothing to do. Ooops. I mean they did a study that shows the negative impact on homeless people of living in cars instead of on the street.
* people who have to go on long trips will report their car stolen before the leave, and that they found it again upon return. Serves a double purpose as it explains the smashed device in the car that was clearly the work of the thieves who didn’t want the police to be able to find them via the device.
* hey, its wireless! Never mind hacking it to get around taxes, how about hacking it to make free long distance phone calls on the government’s dime?
* have they got any good tabloids there? Like the ones in Britain? How about hacking the darn things to find out where politicians go every day, who they see, how long they see…that person they aren’t married to…and how often. Dang. won’t work, the policiians will figure that one out right away. Please add politicians to the exemption list above.
* no idea what the drug dealers will do what with being tracked 24 x 7 and all. Oh wait. They’ll just make a deal with someone who has an exemption. Lots of them already have deals with politicians already for example, they could just add a line item.
* I personally will start a rumour that driving in reverse takes km’s off the odometer and fools the computer, just to see what happens. (If I fluke out and it actually works of course, the highways will be full of people driving 100 km/hr in reverse and the mayhem will be my fault, but I’m pretty certain it won’t work anyway).
I’m dying laughing here. This is killing me. My sides hurt.
This has been on the cards for years. The last Labour government in the UK and the Conservative and Liberal Democrats where all debating the use of GPS tracking for road taxes. All lead by the EU. This gives them everything they want. Total control over people. They will know when and where you and your vehicle go. It’s not about carbon taxes.
I know that what I’m going to suggest is a real stretch for many of the folks who hang out here. But how about trying to use a little imagination and actually thinking a bit — for a change? The world IS going to run out of cheap oil. It’s not a matter of IF. It’s a matter of WHEN. That very well could happen in the next decade or two or three. Nobody really knows WHEN. In fact, many folks in the oil industry think it is already happening and we haven’t realized it because of the affect of the worldwide economic difficulties on demand. Personally, I think they are wrong. But they will not always be wrong.
One of the things that will very likely happen as oil prices drift up and up and up is the increased use of alternate power sources for transportation — electricity, CNG, LPG, etc, etc, etc. If that happens, the burden of paying for road and bridge construction and maintenance is going to fall more and more heavily on those who chose to stick with easily taxed gasoline and diesel — probably because they have no real option. Taxing fuel works pretty well today. But it probably is not going to work so well in the future.
These alternate taxation schemes really are an attempt to prevent that happening by taxing on some combination of miles driven and vehicle properties (e.g. weight) instead of taxing the fuel — a system that is probably going to work less and less well as time goes by.
One big problem with these schemes– which many of those who advocate these schemes acknowledge — is how to fairly compute the taxation. And how to collect the taxes. That’s a really difficult problem actually. Solving it — if it can be solved — is going to require lots of testing and real world experience.
You don’t like use based taxation? That’s fine? I’m not wild about it either. What’s YOUR solution`to equitably funding highway maintenance in the 2030s and beyond?
Endless mindless whining does not solve problems. Never has. Never will.
and what are they going to do when the driver ripe the thing off his car and throw’s it out the window
the Netherlands is testing a new car use tax system that will tax drivers based upon how much they drive
They already do — it’s called a petrol tax.
AMY if your car has ONSTAR or something simular they already can and if you have a cell phone since 2007 they can it is built into every cell device since 2007
At what point are the people going to grow tired of micromanaging our lives?
Meant “of the government micromanaging our lives”
So you tax the fuel going into the engine and you tax the exhaust coming out???
Are these guys for real??
One more reason why I love my bike.
Not only is it open to fraud and abuse, it’s an open door to additional taxes, which is probably why the government wants it. Bet on it, petrol taxes won’t be lifted.
The socialist governments of Europe, led by the EU, have been turning their citizens and subjects into criminals for the past 30 years. Americans have had only 3 years of this sh1t. Clean your stables next November or be Europeanised.
The full adoption of this system in all developed nations within the next decade is almost guaranteed. You can’t get a better and fairer ‘user pays’ system than that.
That both highly-taxed Netherlands and the taxed-enough-already Texas are exploring the system suggests politics and principles are not the issues up for debate here. The debate will be about pricing and implementation.
Groan. The UK government has been toying with this highly unpopular idea for a number of years. And now the Dutch, a once admired and sane nation, have created a physical manifestation of this adsurdity.
Damn their authoritarian eyes!
Absurdity. Doh!
GPS based? Easy to defeat; block the GPS signals. A simple metal shield will work nicely, and the thing will never know it’s left the garage. (try using a GPS indoors; they often can’t get a signal).
or, cut the power lead. Or fry the damn thing with microwaves from a microwave oven (simply rig the door sensor so it can run while open, and aim), or a ton of other ways. A hammer would be my first choice, or just feed the thing a high voltage charge and fry it, etc.
They day they mandate this, is the day I become an enthusiastic criminal. Enough is enough, and this is way to goddamn far.
GPS Jammer manufacturers (read China) will just love these
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20202-gps-chaos-how-a-30-box-can-jam-your-life.html
The tax on petrol (gasolene) is aleady a tax on how much you drive. This is about control.
Of course, the tax on fuel is already a mileage-related tax. But our governments just want an excuse for yet more tax and the ability to keep tabs on where we are.