Why mRNA vaccines could revolutionise medicine

Matt Ridley has written a wonderfully optimistic piece at the Spectator about the technology leading up to the fast creation of Covid-19 vaccines around the world.

The first Covid-19 vaccine given to British people this month is not just a welcome breakthrough against a grim little enemy that has defied every other weapon we have tried, from handwashing to remdesivir and lockdowns. It is also the harbinger of a new approach to medicine altogether. Synthetic messengers that reprogram our cells to mount an immune response to almost any invader, including perhaps cancer, can now be rapidly and cheaply made.

He covers the history of development.

Katalin Karikó — the Hungarian-born scientist who doggedly pursued the idea behind this kind of medication for decades at the University of Pennsylvania before joining BioNTech — and her collaborator Drew Weissman may be the Watson and Brenner of this story. They figured out 15 years ago how to send a message in a bubble into a cell and have it read. For years they had tried putting in normal RNA and found it did not work; the body spotted it was an alien and destroyed it.What if 2020 went down in history as the year synthetic biology dealt a mortal blow to future viruses?

But by subtly modifying one of the four letters in the message (replacing uridine with pseudouridine, a chemical found in some RNAs in the body anyway), they made a version that escaped the attention of the cell’s MI5 agents. Further refinements five years ago produced a recipe that worked reliably when delivered to cells inside a tiny oily bubble. The pandemic is the first time the technique has been tried in anger, and it worked: the first two Covid vaccines, BioNTech’s and Moderna’s, rely on these messengers.

And the potentially amazing ramifications for the future.

Now the principle has been approved by regulators, there may be no need to go through the same laborious and expensive three-phase clinical trials every time. Faced with a truly lethal pandemic — with a 10 per cent mortality rate, say — the vanishingly small likelihood that a new messenger vaccine would be unsafe pales into insignificance. You could deploy it in weeks or days.

What is more, at the cost of a few billion dollars, the world may now be able to build a library of messenger vaccines for every plausible coronavirus and influenza virus with pandemic potential we can find, test them in animals and store the recipes on a hard disk, ready to go at a moment’s notice. Moderna’s vaccine was first synthesised in mid-January, before we even knew the coronavirus was coming out of China.

The full article, worth reading, is available at The Spectator.

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John Tillman
December 18, 2020 6:12 pm

I’ll copy what I said to friends and family who asked about PFE and Moderna’s mRNA vaccines, when asked about conspiracy theories over incorporation in DNA and patenting your genome:

I would avoid mRNA vaccines because they may present the same risk as was discovered in 1967 for killed virus vaccines. 

But they don’t alter DNA. Not that DNA doesn’t incorporate viral sequences naturally. However coronaviruses (CoV) are RNA viruses, not DNA. 

An mRNA vaccine works by injecting messenger RNA coding for the CoV spike protein. Then your cells’ own transfer RNA and ribosomes make the CoV’s spike protein, against which your immune system then produces antibodies and T-cells. Thus you develop immunity without viral infection. That’s the idea anyway. 

AZN’s vaccine is still an advanced approach, but more traditional, in using a real virus. It weakens a chimp adenovirus (cold-causing) by snipping off a bit of its genome, so as to render it harmless, then adds a sequence coding for the CoV spike protein. 

Adenoviruses are very different from CoVs. They’re a double-stranded DNA virus, rather than single-stranded RNA, and they lack a lipid envelope, which enveloped viruses get from the membranes of cells they invade. The only coating around their genome is an icosahedral nucleocapsid. The spike proteins of CoVs poke through their generally spherical envelopes. The spikes act like keys to unlock membranes and permit viruses to enter cells.

Alex
Reply to  John Tillman
December 18, 2020 11:03 pm

What does that adenovirus with your body?
The fact is, nobody knows exactly what even human adenoviruses do.
Some make you fat.
Some make you blind.
Others cause hepatitis, stroke, thrombosis…
What does the chimp virus with your body?
The mRNA sounds like science fiction.
What are the long term effects?
We will know that in 10, may be 20 years.

John Tillman
Reply to  Alex
December 19, 2020 3:31 am

The adenovirus is rendered incapable of replicating. Human cold adenoviruses give us colds. Everyone gets them as kids.

Alex
Reply to  John Tillman
December 20, 2020 1:16 am

“Colds” bring you nearly ALL viruses, including HIV.
Did you know, one of the first symptomes of HIV infection can be (not always!) “cold” a few days after the infection? Unfortunately, it is not an end of the story…
Concering the adenoviruses, here is FYI
Obesity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36
Hepatitis:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28296681/
Your eys:
https://www.reviewofophthalmology.com/article/a-guide-to-understanding-adenovirus-the-diseases-it-causes-and-the-best-ways-to-treat-these-conditions

John Tillman
Reply to  Alex
December 20, 2020 9:25 am

As noted, the chimp adenovirus used in modern vaccines is rendered incapable of replicationg inside cells, but it stll counts as a “live” virus, so doen’t carry the risk of worsening infections, as do “killed” viruses.

John Tillman
Reply to  Alex
December 20, 2020 9:27 am

And the chimp virus doesn’t cause disease in humans anyway, unlike those you cite.

Alex
Reply to  John Tillman
December 20, 2020 9:45 am

Sure?

John Tillman
Reply to  Alex
December 20, 2020 11:30 am

No human disease has yet been found to be caused by the chimp adenovirus, but in any case, when used in vaccines, it’s rendered incapable of replication. It’s just used to deliver the CoV spike protein, against which the human immune system makes antibodies and T-cells.

Old England
Reply to  John Tillman
December 19, 2020 1:47 am

As yet, and admitted by Pfizer and UK NHS, PHE, we don’t know what effect it will have on fertility and hence why it is not to be given to pregnant women or those who want to get pregnant. The antibodies it creates will also attack a protein that is a key constituent of the placenta. That could mean, if the immunity lasts for years, that vaccinated woman can never get pregnant and currently we simply don’t know if that will be the case or if it would be temporary or permanent.

My daughter and her many friends are adamant they will not be vaccinated – they want to be able to have children and the risk of being made infertile is simply too great.

It cannot be given to people who have food or medicinal allergies anda already we have seen anaphylactic shock reaction to vaccination in a Canadian nurse who had no prior allergies. A Californian nurse being used to promote the vaccine on live TV yesterday was seen to collapse shortly after receiving the vaccine. That event was brushed off with the explanation that she faints if in pain ……..

During the studies some participants were found to develop very high temperatures of 104f + along with a range of other symptoms. Not sure how wello that will work with the frail elderly and any underlying morbidity(ies) they may have.

Some of the adverse reactions and official warnings are set out here:
Allergies, auto-immune problems, possible Liver Damage and Do Not get vaccinated if pregnant or planning on getting pregnant ……

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/more-serious-questions-about-the-pfizer-vaccine/

Greg
Reply to  Old England
December 19, 2020 1:59 am

The fact that this is grossly irresponsible is shown clearly by the manufacturers’ refusal to take the usual legal responsibility for any unexpected side-effects.

The govts are giving them a let out clause where they ( ie the tax payer ) take on that responsibility while still paying the phama giants unprecedented sums for the barely tested product.

Last edited 10 months ago by Greg
ozspeaksup
Reply to  Greg
December 19, 2020 4:09 am

there is NO usual legal responsibility
the vaccine makers heavied govts decades ago by saying if they had to BE responsible for the serious adverse effects theyd jack the prices so high theyd be inaccessable to majority of their target pop.
so they get a total indemnity and the usa n uk have a vaccine injury court where IF you can afford it you can sue for damages, and some people do manage that and billions HAVE been paid out for deaths severe disabilties etc
its just “not polite” to mention that side of it though

stinkerp
Reply to  Greg
December 20, 2020 7:53 am

Uh, yeah. Because they haven’t had the luxury of a decade of clinical trials to identify likely side effects, so they have to protect themselves legally. Nothing to see here. But they have actually done some large scale clinical trials and proved it reasonably safe so far. All the crazy “but what about?” claims have no evidence to suggest they will ever happen. It’s just as plausible to ask, “what if it turns people into zombies?” Show us evidence that it does and we’ll take your claim seriously.

wadelightly
Reply to  stinkerp
December 20, 2020 5:29 pm

There were and are also large scale clinical trials that proved HCQ was reasonably safe and beneficial and looked what happened to HCQ. Makes no sense to rush into a vaccine at this stage when we have other beneficial drugs.

Reply to  Old England
December 19, 2020 3:33 am

“She faints if in pain” . When did they become aware of that, when did she become aware of that? I suspect she’s in the wrong profession.

Last edited 10 months ago by G. Bailey
ozspeaksup
Reply to  G. Bailey
December 19, 2020 4:12 am

supposed Vagus nerve reaction…she faint if she injures herself..sure be a liability wouldnt she
and knowing that she took the vaccione on camera?
funny thing? it took near 10 minutes to affect her that way longer than a vagusnerve response time usually is from what Ive read and what I KNOW from using the Valsalvar procedure to try n halt my Afib events usual response time is 10 to 15 seconds

JohnM
Reply to  Old England
December 19, 2020 5:07 am

Also not recommended for males wishing to procreate…

Reply to  Old England
December 19, 2020 7:22 am

A big part of the problem is that the supposed virus has spike proteins essentially identical to exosomes we make naturally. They might also function in fertility, between sperm and egg. We also know that the antibodies a woman makes to mediate fertilized egg implantation are the same as those against great cancer. So, a great cancer vaccine could cause infertility. This is dangerous ground, unless, of course, your goal is to decrease the population.

Susan
Reply to  Old England
December 20, 2020 3:50 am

Since Thalidomide everyone has been very scared of exposing pregnant women, or even ‘women of childbearing age’, to new drugs. There are so many things that can go wrong with a pregnancy that the drug will get blamed even if innocent. Even acupuncturists advise against treating pregnant women for that reason.

stinkerp
Reply to  Old England
December 20, 2020 7:46 am

“The antibodies it creates will also attack a protein that is a key constituent of the placenta.”

Please post your source for this claim. During the clinical trials of the COVID-19 vaccines a couple dozen women got pregnant after they were vaccinated. So I guess we can put that unfounded fear and its unsubstantiated claim to rest. Next?

It’s always a good idea to read news and publications that contradict what someone claims, even if you don’t want it to be true, to decide which claim has the better evidential support (or any at all).

Progressing California
Reply to  stinkerp
December 20, 2020 10:07 am

Have the sources for the “couple dozen women got pregnant” bit? It’s generally poor form to demand sources for claims then make an unsourced claim.

TonyG
Reply to  Old England
December 20, 2020 12:26 pm

Yet EEOC says employers can require employees to take it or lose their jobs…

Reply to  John Tillman
December 19, 2020 7:25 am

However, suppose you have a relatively harmless RNA virus that, perforce, brings reverse transcriptase for its replication. So, a co-infection could allow mRNA to enter the genome. What many do not know is that there are coronaviruses running through the population almost constantly and most cause little or no symptoms, maybe a sniffle for a morning. However, the reverse transcriptase will be there.

Playing with fire, they are. Embers are not a problem until you blow on them.

John Tillman
Reply to  Charles Higley
December 20, 2020 9:36 am

Coronaviruses have positive-sense, single-stranded RNA genomes, hence don’t need reverse transcriptase.

Luke
Reply to  John Tillman
December 19, 2020 6:29 pm

I’d worry about autoimmune disease down the road. I think that it’s absolutely ludicrous for anyone under the hill to get either of these vaxxes especially if they never get the flu shot. It’s their body, their choice. Herd immunity is the slut shaming of the medical world.

TonyG
Reply to  John Tillman
December 20, 2020 12:21 pm

Thank you for the explanation about mRNA vaccines.

John Tillman
Reply to  TonyG
December 20, 2020 1:28 pm

You’re welcome.

The approach is new, so everyone taking them is a guinea pig in an extended trial. I hope that Matt Ridley’s optimism is warranted.

John Tillman
Reply to  John Tillman
December 20, 2020 3:27 pm

Here’s the normal process of transcription and translation in a cell:

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/translation-dna-to-mrna-to-protein-393/

A viral mRNA skips the transcription step, ie creating an mRNA template from cellular DNA (in a nucleus in us eukaryotes). The mRNA goes to a ribosome, where transfer RNA (tRNA) attaches amino acids corresponding to the mRNA template’s three-letter (nucleobases) codon. Ribosomal RNA (rRNA) is actually just two wads (one larger, one smaller) of tRNA, covered with some protein blotches.

So, in a way, a ribosome is structurally similar to an RNA virus, in that it consists of RNA with a protein coat. Viral capsids are however usually more complete in coverage than the bits of protein on the surface of ribosomes.

TonyL
December 18, 2020 6:17 pm

Anybody got any idea whether mRNA treatments like this vaccine are safe? After all, mRNA treatments have never been tested. For the vaccine, animal trials were skipped, *then* the vaccines were given Emergency Approval.

Just a historical note, I remember the last major emergency vaccination program and it’s fallout. It was the winter of 1976-77, with the Swine Flu. Big, scary thing. The vaccine program got underway full swing. It seemed to be going OK, then *BLAM*, Full Stop. The vaccine was causing a severe neurological syndrome, with lots of people dying, many others permanently disabled. Turned out, the possibility of severe neurological reactions was well known by some, but was most assuredly kept from the American public.

Great Days, indeed.

Scissor
Reply to  TonyL
December 18, 2020 6:25 pm

We’ll find out, experiment in progress.

Thomas Gasloli
Reply to  TonyL
December 19, 2020 8:02 am

I was in college at that time. They gave us the first dose of the vaccine but not the second, so we all got the flu anyway. Given my experience with that, I have doubts they can manage effective delivery of two vaccines with completely different protocols, both of which require two doses. This has health care fiasco written all over it. And it isn’t like the CDC & NIH performance so far in the “COVID crisis” has been encouraging.

Jeff Meyer
Reply to  Thomas Gasloli
December 19, 2020 8:31 am

I wonder if they will be giving it to all in the CCP?

whiten
Reply to  TonyL
December 19, 2020 11:15 am

TonyL

From the superficial information in this article,
I would say that this new thingy looks pretty safe, like 99% safe, where the 1% always
belongs with the House.

Could not be any safer… 🙂

If the main basics as described in this blog post, yes it seems safe, expensive though but still considerably safe… for the moment.

cheers

whiten
Reply to  whiten
December 19, 2020 11:28 am

For simple clarifying of the above comment of mine;

Is not whatsoever meant in the line of recommendation.

Just sharing a thought.

Robertvd
Reply to  whiten
December 20, 2020 5:06 pm

1 % of 350 000 000 Americans are still 3 500 000 Americans

MarkG
Reply to  TonyL
December 19, 2020 4:19 pm

Exactly. This is the real problem.

We have a disease with a 99.9% survival rate, and governments are saying that everyone in the world must be vaccinated with a poorly-tested vaccine with uncertain side-effects using a brand-new technique.

It’s simply insane, unless there’s an ulterior motive behind it.

DaveB
Reply to  MarkG
December 21, 2020 7:15 am

I’d be interested to know where you get a survival rate of 99.9%? It’s one that often seems to be quoted by people who for some reason want to underplay the severity of this infection. Total proven infections worldwide are around 77,280,000, and total deaths around 1,702,000, which gives a fatality rate of 2.2%. In the UK its even higher, at 3.3% and Italy higher still at 3.5%

DonM
Reply to  DaveB
December 21, 2020 5:58 pm

exaggerated death count (inclusive of anyone infected) divided “proven” infections gives a bigger number than:

“True deaths”/”Actual Infected”

0.1% may be wrong (and exaggerated), but 2.2% is also obviously wrong as well.

Felix
December 18, 2020 6:19 pm

Perhaps Katalin Karikó and Drew Weissman should be nominated for the Nobel in medicine.

December 18, 2020 6:38 pm

Here’s an encouraging article about the Moderna vaccine:
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/moderna-covid-vaccine-did-not-use-fetal-cells/
 
If you want to learn about the 236(!) different current Covid-19 vaccine development projects, 38 of which are currently in clinical trials, this “tweetorial” is a terrific resources:
 
Tweet #1:
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310372301314101250
Tweet #138 (last tweet):
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310435247243304962
Unrolled thread (several different ways):
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310372301314101250.html (best format, if you block ads)
https://threader.app/thread/1310372301314101250
https://rattibha.com/thread/1310372301314101250
https://sealevel.info/Sars-Cov-2_vaccine_tweetorial_by_florian_krammer_sep_28_2020_rattibha.pdf
 
@MilkenInstitute has two different Covid-19 vaccine tracker web sites:
https://covid-19vaccinetracker.org
https://covid-19tracker.milkeninstitute.orgalso has info about prospective treatments

Reply to  Dave Burton
December 21, 2020 5:57 pm

I wrote, Here’s an encouraging article about the Moderna vaccine…”

And here’s an encouraging article about the Pfizer vaccine, reporting that, like Moderna, they did not use fetal cells in the development of their vaccine:
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/pfizer-covid-vaccine-not-created-with-fetal-cells/

OTOH, here’s an article reporting that AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson did use fetal cells, in the development of their vaccines:
https://www.cal-catholic.com/pfizer-and-moderna-do-not-use-fetal-cells-for-vaccine-production/

APtB
December 18, 2020 6:39 pm

I will wait and see wait comes. It seems to me a quickly developed, singularly focused remedy has not even begun to look into potential side effect. short and long term.
Also found this line interesting “Moderna’s vaccine was first synthesized in mid-January, before we even knew the coronavirus was coming out of China.” Were they prescient?, or did they already know about this particular type of virus?

commieBob
December 18, 2020 7:04 pm

…a grim little enemy that has defied every other weapon we have tried, from handwashing to remdesivir and lockdowns.

How about Vitamin D? Spanish researchers treated hospitalized patients with calcifediol, a metabolite of Vitamin D. The results were astounding. 50% of the control group ended up in the ICU. 2% of the treated group did so. Of the 13 patients in the control group who were admitted to the ICU, two died. None of the treated group died.
<br><br>
Just considering the ICU admission rate, the effect size is huge even though the sample size is rather small. The p value is less than 0.001.

The results have been known for months. I’m astounded that ‘they’ seem to be studiously ignoring the study.

Leonard
Reply to  commieBob
December 18, 2020 9:48 pm

I always worry about tests using p less than 0.001. That is a low probability of making a TYPE 1 error but it may produce a very probability of making a TYPE2 error.

Every hypothesis test should be set up only after consulting a qualified statistician.

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  commieBob
December 18, 2020 10:08 pm

Vitamin D, HCQ, ivermectin, and chicken soup all have been lauded by doctors treating WuFlu, which btw is less deadly than influenza for people under 70. The death rate for the ChiCom Plague is so small the vaccine will be superfluous even if it’s effective, which is an unknown and may never be known.

Speaking of which, what happened to influenza? For the past 10 years the flu has k*lled ~40,000 people per year in the US and 650,000 worldwide. This Fall the flu has all but disappeared:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm#S2

Going to try the attach image button now. We’ll see if it works.

ILI50_small.gif
Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 18, 2020 10:13 pm

Hooray! It worked! Note the minimal flu cases so far this year. Anybody want to proffer an explanation? Must be due to Climate Weirding, eh?

M Courtney
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 19, 2020 10:11 am

The transmission of flu uses the same mechanisms as COVID-19.
With so many precautions in ace to prevent Covid transmission we would expect flu to be stopped too.
If it wasn’t, that would be very weird.

AngryScotonFraggleRock
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 19, 2020 1:23 am

Speaking of which, what happened to influenza? For the past 10 years the flu has k*lled ~40,000 people per year in the US and 650,000 worldwide. This Fall the flu has all but disappeared’

Perhaps round 1 of CV19 brought forward the demise of those who would have been taken by the ‘flu and round 2 is merely mopping up the remainder?

J Craig Venter forecast that Genomics would be the next ‘break point’ in the human story. I think we are living through the major up-tick he was talking about.

Why was Biontech so quick off the mark? Probably because the are quite clever folk, can think tactically and had the building blocks of the vaccine already in production as an anti-cancer treatment.

Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 19, 2020 1:54 am

The obvious reason that there are so few flu cases this year, so far, is that the measures taken to slow the spread of Covid-19 also slow the spread of flu, and flu is much less contagious than Covid-19.

As for your contention that Covid-19 “is less deadly than influenza for people under 70” that depends on which influenza you’re talking about. Covid-19 is much less deadly than the 1918 influenza, but much more deadly than typical seasonal flu, and more contagious.

With Covid-19 (and with most other diseases), if you’re young and healthy, your odds of surviving the disease are drastically improved, but even then you should try hard to avoid it, because:

1. If you get Covid-19 you might transmit it to Grandma, and kill her.

2. Many people have lingering neurological and/or pulmonary issues, even if they survive the disease.

Despite the measures taken to slow its spread, Covid-19 will have killed about 350,000 Americans by the end of the year. That’s about ten times the number of Americans who die in an average flu season.

In the U.S., typical seasonal flu has a fatality rate of about 0.13%.

The number of U.S. Covid-19 deaths as a percentage of known resolved cases (Case Fatality Rate, or “CFR”) is 319,784 / (10,343,054 + 319,784) = 3.0%.

Another way to estimate the CFR is just from recent cases, by comparing the average daily death rate to the average daily number of new known cases. I did that arithmetic a couple of weeks ago: 1659 deaths /day, calculated over the week of Nov 17-24; 161,014 cases/day calculated over the previous week, Nov 10-17; 1659 / 161,014 = 1.03%.So the good news is that that means the CFR is declining, but the bad news is that it’s still about 8x as deadly as typical seasonal flu.

As the vaccines roll out, and the most vulnerable populations get vaccinated, the CFR will hopefully decline further. But that will take a while. In the meantime, please play it safe. We don’t need a post-Christmas surge in cases and deaths, like the post-Thanksgiving surge.

Last edited 10 months ago by Dave Burton
Mike
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 19, 2020 6:29 am

The obvious reason that there are so few flu cases this year, so far, is that the measures taken to slow the spread of Covid-19 also slow the spread of flu, and flu is much less contagious than Covid-19.

Maybe not:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/03/17/290878964/even-if-you-dont-have-symptoms-you-may-still-have-the-flu

And:

According to a CDC estimate, there were more than 60 million swine flu cases reported in the U.S. between April 2009 — when the disease was first detected in California — and April 2010, with more than 12,000 people dying.

Sixty million? Isn’t that more than the SARS-2 count?

Then, the government under Obama’s direction stopped counting cases to avoid panic.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

More deadly? What about excess deaths? Johns Hopkins’s recent study says – no. The CDC reports the same when comparing the average number of all deaths in the US to the average in 2020.

The PCR test is questionable (89% false positives), gunshot victim dies from his wounds but has the COVID – so, he died with COVID, which is counted as…by COVID. The counting of COVID deaths is highly questionable, too.

Fear is a powerful weapon.

Reply to  Mike
December 20, 2020 10:20 am

Mike wrote, “According to a CDC estimate, there were more than 60 million swine flu cases reported in the U.S. between April 2009 — when the disease was first detected in California — and April 2010, with more than 12,000 people dying. Sixty million? Isn’t that more than the SARS-2 count?”

12K deaths from 60M cases would be an infection fatality rate (IFR) of 0.02%, averaged over the whole swine flu epidemic. (Of course, swine flu was not “typical seasonal flu.”)

Mike wrote, “More deadly? What about excess deaths? Johns Hopkins’s recent study says – no. The CDC reports the same when comparing the average number of all deaths in the US to the average in 2020.”

As I showed you, the the number of U.S. Covid-19 deaths as a percentage of known resolved cases (Case Fatality Rate, or “CFR”) is 319,784 / (10,343,054 + 319,784) = 3.0%. If the true number of cases was twice that, it makes the CFR about 1.5%.

1.5% is 75 times as deadly as 0.02%.

As for “excess deaths,” here’s a CDC report on the spike in excess deaths:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

They say that the number of excess deaths, as of mid-October, was substantially greater than the number of reported Covid deaths. That suggests that many Covid deaths are going unreported, and/or that secondary effects (such as fatalities due to delayed treatment of other conditions) are causing additional deaths.

Last edited 10 months ago by Dave Burton
Alan Carr
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 19, 2020 7:08 am

“Many people have lingering neurological and/or pulmonary issues, even if they survive the disease.”

How ‘many’? Because the normal flu causes organ damage, blood clots, all that stuff. Of course, not for the vast majority of people that get it, but for some, yes. Is this COVIDEATHPLAGUE the same?

Reply to  Alan Carr
December 20, 2020 10:36 am

Alan Carr asked, “How many?”

Good question. I don’t know the answer.

Here’s an article about it from Harvard Medical School:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133

Here’s an article about it from the Mayo Clinic:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

This WebMD article says 80% of hospitalized Covid patients have neurological symptoms (ignore the misleading headline):
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201005/8-in-10-covid-19-patients-suffer-neurological-symptoms-study-finds

A web search finds many more articles:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lingering+neurological+effects+of+covid

PaulH
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 20, 2020 5:29 pm

Not to trivialize the after effects mentioned in your links, but I suspect many of these same issues occur with other viral infections like pneumonia, H1N1, HIV, swine flu, etc. Heck, diabetes has many of the same long-term effects, as does smoking and drug and alcohol abuse. Some of the listed after-effects are rather non-specific: fatigue, headaches, “brain fog”, hair loss all sound like old age. 😉

Reply to  PaulH
December 21, 2020 5:48 pm

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Get_off_my_lawn2[1].jpg
PaulH
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 23, 2020 7:36 am

Same!

Jeff Meyer
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 19, 2020 8:38 am

So why are the total deaths here in the US lower than last year? If this is killing that many people, would you not see it in the obituaries and funeral homes?

Reply to  Jeff Meyer
December 20, 2020 10:38 am

According to the CDC, they aren’t. Here’s a CDC report on the spike in excess deaths:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

They say that the number of excess deaths, as of mid-October, was substantially greater than the number of reported Covid deaths. That suggests that many Covid deaths are going unreported, and/or that secondary effects (such as fatalities due to delayed treatment of other conditions) are causing additional deaths.

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 19, 2020 1:31 pm

Regarding the alleged deadliness of COVID vs influenza, please see:

https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/

…through December 16, 92 percent of COVID-19 deaths nationwide have occurred among those ages 55 or older. Only 0.2 percent were younger than 25. …

That’s not true of influenza. In 2017-18 643 of the 61,099 deaths from flu (1.1%) were persons 18 and younger. In other words influenza is at least 5 times deadlier for young people than COVID. In 2017-18 flu victims under 65yo accounted for 16.7% of deaths. That’s double the rate for COVID.

Regarding the argument that influenza this year is mild because COVID got all the likely victims early, please note from the same link:

CDC data also show that Americans, regardless of age group, are far more likely to die of something other than COVID-19. Even among those in the most heavily impacted age group (85 and older), only 10.5 percent of all deaths since February 2020 were due to COVID-19.

From Feb through Dec something other than COVID has croaked 9 times as many elders as has COVID. If the Grim Reaper had those folks on his list for flu demise, he was thwarted by Something Else, not COVID.

And please note I wrote all that without resorting to bold face to make my points.

Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 20, 2020 11:01 am

Mike wrote, “Regarding the argument that influenza this year is mild because COVID got all the likely victims early…”

I’ve never heard that argument. Who made it?

EDIT: Never mind, I see that it was AngryScotonFraggleRock who suggested it as a possibility, above.

Mike wrote, “please see: https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/

There’s something strange about that table. At the top of the page it says, “Updated December 16, 2020”. Yet the table shows only 87,259+75,165+59,056+33,378+13,580+5,101+1,969+458+47+18+30 = 276,061 deaths. But worldometers says that the U.S. had already had 314,651 known Covid-19 deaths as of that date.

It appears that whatever they “updated” on Dec. 16 did not include the data in the table.

We’re on track for about 350,000 total U.S. Covid-19 deaths in 2020.

Additionally, the “something else” includes the months of January and February, during which the U.S. had exactly one Covid death. That inflates the denominator, and makes the percentage of Covid deaths appear smaller than it actually is.

The current Covid death rate, of about 2500 Americans per day, is about one-third of the average all-causes U.S. death rate, when there’s no epidemic.

Last edited 10 months ago by Dave Burton
Reply to  Dave Burton
December 20, 2020 11:16 am

comment image

Reply to  Dave Burton
December 20, 2020 12:37 pm

I wrote, “There’s something strange … the table shows only … 276,061 deaths…”

Mystery solved:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/18/why-mrna-vaccines-could-revolutionise-medicine/#comment-3149619

Old England
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 19, 2020 2:26 am

Below is the link to the paper produced by FRONT LINE COVID19 CRITICAL CARE ALLIANCE as a review of all research and studeis on Ivermectin across the world. It was part of a recent presentation to the US Senate.

They recommend Ivermectin as a prophylactic- the paper is well worth reading. I referred to it on live radio (LBC) in the UK last week as I asked questions of Dr Scalley ( a member of either SAGE or Alternative SAGE) and asked him to read the paper. The moment I mentioned Ivermextin I was cut off by the producer !!

The paper is here:
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/FLCCC-Ivermectin-in-the-prophylaxis-and-treatment-of-COVID-19.pdf

not you
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
December 19, 2020 4:12 pm

my goodness, if i see more one post about the flu disappearing i may explode.

the cdc stopped aggregating the states weekly mmwr reports!

they announced it on their site.

the p/i rages on same as ever. here is the latest report from the PRDH

face diapers, anti-social distancing, lock downs, etc are not slowing or stopping the flu and they are not slowing or stopping the common cold causing corona virus

that is why the cdc stopped aggregating the stats

Last edited 10 months ago by not you
Reply to  not you
December 20, 2020 12:33 pm

“not you” wrote, “… mmwr … p/i … PRDH …”

Would you mind spelling out your abbreviations the first time you use them, please? (Because I have no idea what you’re talking about.)

“not you” wrote, they announced it on their site.”

Link, please?

“not you” wrote, the cdc stopped aggregating the stats”

Hmmm… 20 days ago I posted this comment, referencing the CDC statistics on deaths from all causes, Covid-19, pneumonia, and flu. Since then, all the numbers have increased, including number of reported flu deaths:

<b>C</b> = COVID-19 Deaths: 276,061
<b>P</b> = Pneumonia Deaths: 267,901
<b>F</b> = Influenza Deaths: 6,897
<b>P ∩ C</b> = Pneumonia + COVID-19 Deaths: 126,586
<b>P ∪ C ∪ F</b> = Pneumonia, Influenza, or COVID-19 Deaths: 423,212

However, the number of flu deaths increased by a suspiciously tiny 68, from 6829 to 6897.

The number of deaths from all causes increased from 2,579,548 to 2,777,572, a difference of 198,024.

The number of deaths from Covid-19 increased from 240,213 to 276,061, a difference of 35,848.

(Aside: 35,848 / 198,024 = 18.1%; that’s the percentage of recent U.S. deaths which were from Covid-19.)

Also odd is the fact that the number of Covid-19 deaths is much lower than worldometers reports.

† Ah ha, I recognize that number! 276,061 is the summed Covid-19 death stats from that Heritage page to which Mike linked, and which I called “strange.” The reason the Heritage numbers looked “strange” to me is that they used CDC figures, which are lower than worldometer figures.

Does anyone know why the CDC figures are so much lower than the worldometer figures?

Bob Johnston
Reply to  commieBob
December 18, 2020 10:28 pm

There’s no money to be made by giving people Vitamin D… or HCQ or Ivermectin either for that matter.

Reply to  Bob Johnston
December 20, 2020 12:48 pm

Regardless of whether there’s money to be made from such protocols, they are being studied, along with many other possible treatments. Here’s a useful resource:

https://covid-19tracker.milkeninstitute.org

Of course I’m sure you’re familiar with the competing (contradictory) studies of chloroquine (sometimes in combination with other medications). This link might take you to a study of Ivermectin, but if it doesn’t just ctrl-F or ⌘F and search for “IVERMECTIN”.

Alex
Reply to  commieBob
December 18, 2020 11:15 pm

There is no effect of vitamin D.
There is an effect of sun on your skin though.
It produces much more in your body than mere D3.

Old England
Reply to  Alex
December 19, 2020 2:21 am

It was interesting a couple of years ago when my son’s professional rugby team were tested at the end of summer pre-season training to find that despite being outside for hours each day over the summer months they were all vitamin D deficient.

John Tillman
Reply to  Old England
December 19, 2020 7:18 am

UV light is strongest from 10 AM to 2 PM. His team might not have gotten enough light were they wearing long-sleeved jerseys and knee socks.

Bob Johnston
Reply to  Alex
December 19, 2020 9:29 am

This is true. Natural sunlight is the best source by far and the best hours to get it are between 10 and 2. UVB, the wavelength of light that causes us to create the effective form of Vitamin D, can only get through the atmosphere when the sun is high in the sky, otherwise the atmosphere blocks it. “Expert” advice to avoid direct sun and slather on sunscreen is likely making people sick and more likely to die.

Harold
Reply to  Alex
December 19, 2020 7:31 pm

Over the age of 60, or so, the skin stops producing Vitamin D. Is this why oldies die of C19 more than others ?

ozspeaksup
Reply to  commieBob
December 19, 2020 4:15 am

well a few hundred mil per company as a starter and ongoing profits might just…explain why cheap off patent treatments arent being persued, you reckon?

Old England
Reply to  commieBob
December 19, 2020 4:55 am

Below is the link to the paper produced by FRONT LINE COVID19 CRITICAL CARE ALLIANCE as a review of all research and studeis on Ivermectin across the world. It was part of a recent presentation to the US Senate.
They recommend Ivermectin as a prophylactic- the paper is well worth reading
https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/FLCCC-Ivermectin-in-the-prophylaxis-and-treatment-of-COVID-19.pdf

bluecat57
December 18, 2020 7:05 pm

Or they may destroy mankind. Remember when you thought 1984, Brave New Workd and Animal Farm we’re fiction?

Alexy Scherbakoff
December 18, 2020 7:19 pm

I won’t, voluntarily, take a vaccine. I am suspicious of something that bypasses the body’s natural defenses. Poor quality control could be a real nuisance.

Leo Smith
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
December 18, 2020 8:57 pm

But a vaccine is there to mobilise the bodies natural defences, not bypass them?

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  Leo Smith
December 18, 2020 9:31 pm

I was under the impression that a traditional vaccine puts the virus (weakened) into your body where your antibodies develop a way to fight the virus. Apparently this new way is different to that. ‘they made a version that escaped the attention of the cell’s MI5 agents.’

I’ll wait and see the results before I submit to experimentation. 

michael hart
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
December 19, 2020 8:32 pm

The bit about “..they made a version that escaped the attention of the cell’s MI5 agents” is fairly typical journalistic hyperbole. Translated, it means they just managed to make a mRNA analogue that wasn’t immediately destroyed by the many processes going on normally in the cell that degrade such molecules

The use of a mRNA vaccine is a one-off event that uses the cells protein-synthesis machinery to produce a fragment of one of the proteins that is also made by the virus during the course of an infection. After injection, the mRNA vaccine and it’s products will disappear from the body relatively quickly because it is just a one-off pulse.

By contrast, the virus itself hijacks the protein-synthesis machinery on a permanent basis. Synthesizing all of the viral proteins on an on-going basis, it makes copies of itself, infecting other cells and increasing exponentially.

I note that many of the people who emphasize a lack of data on the safety of something approved so quickly also seem strangely confident about the much rarer potential ‘side-effects’.

My parents took the vaccine today and I intend to as soon as I am old enough or they produce sufficient supply, whichever comes first. Every treatment or prophylactic has risks but I am confident that for me the risk/reward equation comes down strongly in favor of taking the vaccine.

Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
December 20, 2020 10:38 am

It is when they use terms like “the body’s M15 agents” that you know you are being treated like a frigging idjit. I have scrolled down this far, and so far, not one single person has named the elephant in the room: Metals, metalic salts, industrial contaminants and even glyphosate and aspertame in vaccines. That question is drowned by the celebrations of “no foetal cells used”, hype instead of safety?
Has anybody noticed how vaccine clinical trials always have two groups: The vaccines, and the vaccines without the “active ingredient”.
Show me a trial with three groups: vaccine, ‘placebo’ and saltwater only. I bet those ‘placebos’ are actually so poisonous, they (statistically) hide the vaccine problems.
The only way you will get that dreck into me, is by holding me down. This I shall see as an attack on my person, and defend myself accordingly. If that fails, I shall have to make do with retributive operations. I suggest all “medical professionals” consider whose side they are on very carefully.

michael hart
Reply to  paranoid goy
December 21, 2020 10:31 pm

I agree that the choice of control is often a crucial and overlooked component of many scientific experiments, not just clinical trials.

But to just invoke various potential contaminants on an ad hoc basis for not taking a drug/vaccine does not seem like a good argument to me. The water/wine you drink, and the food you eat that you bought in the supermarket or the organic/vegan cooperative today, might also be contaminated in exactly the same way.

But you consume it anyway. You are making a decision about how much you trust the supplier’s standards. I don’t trust the (UK) medical regulators any more or any less than the supermarkets (but certainly less than the “organic” food cooperative down the road).

As regards the Pfizer vaccine in the UK, I took a look at the listed chemical composition and found it surprisingly free of additives and adjuvants that caused me concern. Some traditional vaccines often also contained various pro-inflammatory metal compounds or toxic/inflammatory proteins unrelated to the virus itself. These proteins were used precisely and necessarily because they initiated a strong reaction of the immune system on their own in most individuals, and were thus often the cause of undesirable side effects. (Which takes us back to the original point about proper choice of controls in clinical trials.) As far as I can tell, this vaccine does not use such adjuvants and so removes many potential side effects such as anaphylactic shock etc. It appears to use only proteins derived from the virus itself, leading to a more specific immune response which does not rely on a general antigen.

Yes, there could potentially be undesirable responses to these protein fragments in the vaccine but they should be no worse than being exposed to the virus itself, and almost certainly less. That is, after all, the essential nature of a vaccine. It “educates” the body’s immune system by exposing to a tiny amount of something that is harmful in the much larger amounts experienced during an infection. This vaccine avoids the concomitant exposure to an irrelevant inflammatory protein that is already known to be toxic to all humans.

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  Leo Smith
December 18, 2020 9:43 pm

I’ve heard that a major side-effect of the vaccine is that the people who get it go on and on about getting it.

Bob Johnston
Reply to  Leo Smith
December 18, 2020 10:29 pm

Don’t kid yourself, all vaccines have side effects. Hopefully the vaccines help more people than they hurt.

Huell Bernenhell
Reply to  Bob Johnston
December 18, 2020 11:44 pm

There is no such thing as a drug having “side effects”, that’s just a euphemism used by doctors and pharmaceutical corporations. They are all just EFFECTS.

Greg
Reply to  Huell Bernenhell
December 19, 2020 3:45 am

Technically, there indications and contra-indications. Side-effects ( the latter ) are the effects you did not intend and do not want, ie negative effects. Side-effect is clearer to the layman than contra-indication. You make no useful point.

Reply to  Greg
December 20, 2020 10:44 am

No, Huell is trying to tell you that your “contra-indications’ are actually well understood effects and most probably purposely part of the design. The reasons offered for the metallic contaminants (sorry, boss, adjuncts), for example, are less than convincing, and actually rubbishes the theory behind vaccination.

Reply to  paranoid goy
December 20, 2020 1:00 pm

One thing about a vaccine kept at -80°C is that it probably doesn’t need to have any preservatives, like thimerosal.

DaveB
Reply to  Greg
December 21, 2020 7:37 am

A side-effect (better to refer to it as an unwanted effect) is not the same as a contra-indication. A contra-indication, which can be relative or absolute, is a reason, usually a pre-existing condition, which would stop you giving a treatment to a patient. Thus for the Covid vaccine, a previous history of anaphylaxis is an absolute contraindication to giving it. A tendency for a patient to faint when its being administered may be (but really shouldn’t be) a relative contra-indication. A bit of redness and tenderness at the injection site would be an unwanted (“side-“) effect.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
December 19, 2020 4:19 am

they solved…the “hotbatch” problem where a large group of adverse events showed up by mixing batches of our standard vaccines so if there are dud batches its hidden,ie one or two serious adverse events in an area not hundreds , making it very evident
not sure of theyll be able to do so with this in limited runs and large batches shipped to easily traceable recipients.
could get interesting indeed

High Treason
December 18, 2020 7:22 pm

All smells very suspicious why we are going to be coerced in to submitting to an untested vaccine. With the makers immune from prosecution, a basic element of freedom is being taken away. The right to redress is a fundamental ingredient of human freedom.
What if there are issues such as mass sterilization or cancer from the vaccine? Remember, it is untested. Such a vaccine would be a perfect weapon to destroy an unwitting foe.Not very ethical, but very effective.
Some of the players involved with the vaccine need to be put under the microscope. They CERTAINLY need to receive the jab personally first.
Considering there are effective medicines that are inexpensive on what is not a deadly disease, we must all become very suspicious of the motives for the push for a vaccine.

Ab Mix-O'Lydian
Reply to  High Treason
December 18, 2020 10:25 pm

Someone got a gun to your head? How can you be coerced into submission?

Greg
Reply to  Ab Mix-O'Lydian
December 19, 2020 3:47 am

air lines preventing you from flying would be one example. You are still “free” not to fly any more, or maybe not get a job, but you are still being coerced.

MarkG
Reply to  Ab Mix-O'Lydian
December 19, 2020 4:24 pm

The government of Ontario have talked about how they won’t mandate people to get the vaccine, but companies might refuse to employ your or do business with you. How is that not ‘coercion’?

And how is it not utterly insane for a disease with a 99.9% survival rate?

TonyG
Reply to  Ab Mix-O'Lydian
December 20, 2020 12:34 pm

EEOC has published guidance stating that employers may require employees to get vaccinated or face termination. That seems to fit the definition.

Peta of Newark
December 18, 2020 7:25 pm

Just this evening in fact, chatting with the mum of a young woman who works in Care Homes for the elderly

Said young woman was invited to a vaccination but first, she had to sign a disclaimer saying that she took Full Responsibility if anything should ‘go wrong’ with said vaccination.
She also had to take herself on a 2-hour round-trip drive to get this shot – so much for lockdown eh?

i.e. if it crippled, maimed, disabled or killed her, it was *her* fault and NOT the doctors, Government or the manufacturer
Not normal UK doctor’s tactics.
What’s going on there then……..

As an otherwise healthy young woman, she politely declined.
(Her Mum was a little more graphic when telling me)

Last time I had a (flu) vaccination, I was effectively assaulted by my own GP in his surgery office.
I was invited to a normal (for me) blood pressure check and medicinal chat when he pulled a loaded syringe from a desk drawer and stabbed it into my arm.
He smugly told me I was ‘protected’ and in fact needed to be be.

Too true mate, protected from doctors more than the virus.

I was Death Warmed Up the whole of the next week.
Never again. That’s when I started myself on Vitamin D and have pretty well forgotten what flu is like

Greg
Reply to  Peta of Newark
December 19, 2020 3:49 am

The problem is that old folks in care homes have no choice at all. They can easily be brow-beaten into taking a choice against their wishes and have to accept the medical treatment given to them, otherwise they get turned out. Try finding a new home to take you when you refuse the jab.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Peta of Newark
December 19, 2020 4:23 am

sounds like our local clinic, when H1N1 vax came out they were jabbing first and getting the warning and harm disclaimers signed AFTERwards, and the majority had no idea at all what theyd signed. they also ignored h1n1 as one only jab and were giving other jabs ie tetanus to a friend WITh it
he was severely ill for days but wouldnt report it..didnt want to bother anyone…

JohnM
Reply to  Peta of Newark
December 19, 2020 5:15 am

Hmmm

Screenshot_2020-12-18 COVID-19 vaccination consent form – Social Care Staff - PHE_11843_Covid-19_Consent_form_adults_able_t[...].png
David Hartley
December 18, 2020 7:44 pm

Thalidomide anyone?

markl
December 18, 2020 7:51 pm

By the time it gets to the masses it will have been tested by the millions that came first. Not reassuring if you are one of them. That “list of priority receivers” has its’ disadvantages…. and advantages.

Myron Mesecke
December 18, 2020 8:53 pm

So does this reprogramming of our bodies cells have a built in kill switch? Or will our cells keep making more and more even though our bodies immune systems have already produced antibodies? If there is no kill switch, no thanks. I want my bodies cells to go back to normal and doing what nature set them out to do.

John Tillman
Reply to  Myron Mesecke
December 19, 2020 3:50 am

Messenger RNAs last hours to days in mammalian cells. In prokaryotes, seconds to hours, with one to three minutes usual in bacteria.

Leo Smith
December 18, 2020 8:55 pm

Full article is worth reading

DMacKenzie
December 18, 2020 8:56 pm

Every day, you inhale viruses and your immune system beats them. You’ve likely been inoculated for measles mumps, rubella, polio, shingles,hepatitis, influenza. You could step on a nail, be bitten by an animal, stung by wasp, and get some really deadly virus….etc….and you’re worried about the littlest bit of killed virus that someone can possibly inject into you so they can spread it around to the most people, that has already been tried on 45,000 volunteers !! Get real, anti-vaxxers, I’ll take your spot in line…

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  DMacKenzie
December 18, 2020 10:07 pm

Some of us are not anti-vaxers. Some of us don’t want to be first in line. In Australia I will be able to get it come January. I won’t get it then. I will get it if it is a requirement for travel this time next year. I’m not fat, don’t have diabetes or heart problems.

Ab Mix-O'Lydian
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
December 18, 2020 10:34 pm

What’s your blood type? What’s your 25-Hydroxy (vitamin D) level?

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  Ab Mix-O'Lydian
December 19, 2020 1:05 am

Be positive (B+). Like my nature. I take vitamin D daily and have a healthy balanced diet. I’m not afraid of dying and avoid taking drugs unnecessarily. HAD lymphoma and found the chemo interesting. As you see, I’m not averse to tried and trusted medication.

AngryScotonFraggleRock
Reply to  Alexy Scherbakoff
December 19, 2020 1:30 am

That would be the blood type that most BAME seem to have – pity you are not O-type!

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  AngryScotonFraggleRock
December 19, 2020 1:45 am

Russians are ethnically white. I’m so white I’m practically translucent.

Bob Johnston
Reply to  DMacKenzie
December 18, 2020 10:35 pm

I loved your first sentence then everything went to shit. Why would I get vaccinated with a compound that hasn’t been through long term trials when my odds of recovery (if I even get it) is 99.97%.

People are panicked over COVID and panicked people make bad decisions. You have to weigh the benefits against the true risk and we don’t know the true benefits or the true risks.

Hard pass.

M Courtney
Reply to  Bob Johnston
December 19, 2020 10:20 am

You have a very good chance of recovery. True.
Is your chance of getting long covid really less than the chance of a serious side-effect to the vaccine? That seems unlikely. The vaccine has been tested – it is shown to be safe while long covid is a known outcome of the virus.
But above all – you aren’t being asked to take the vaccine to save yourself. It’s to stop the spread. It’s to protect those who are vulnerable.
We are at war with the virus and you are being called up. Don’t dodge the draft.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  M Courtney
December 19, 2020 2:09 pm

At war? Ridiculous comment!

MarkG
Reply to  M Courtney
December 19, 2020 4:26 pm

Yes. It’s all being done ‘to protect the vulnerable’, isn’t it, because it’s impossible to prove that none of these things actually work. And a perfect argument for Karens to attack anyone who won’t go along with the insanity.

DonM
Reply to  M Courtney
December 21, 2020 7:48 pm

Those that are vulnerable can protect themselves now, right?

It is a safe vaccine with relatively no side effects … “if you experience an allergic reaction to the first dose, then don’t get the second dose….” Aside from that, old, infirm, young, everyone that wants it can get it.

Safe, effective, & “everyone” can get the vaccine … everyone can protect themselves.

Which vulnerable are harmed by those that opt out?

If I don’t get the vaccine, and you do, and I get sick, and your vaccine doesn’t work & I infect you (what are the chances of all that happening), you can sue me & I won’t fight it … I’ll just pay you; how’s that for a deal.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  DMacKenzie
December 19, 2020 6:16 am

I don’t see how being prudent about the testing of a new vaccine makes one an anti-vaxxer. I’m up to date on all my vaccines but I am leery of this one because it was rushed through so quickly.

Mike
Reply to  DMacKenzie
December 19, 2020 6:36 am

….and you’re worried about the littlest bit of killed virus that someone can possibly inject into you so they can spread it around to the most people, that has already been tried on 45,000 volunteers !! Get real, anti-vaxxers, I’ll take your spot in line…

You didn’t read the article – it’s not your childhood vaccine. Read it again.

Bob Johnston
December 18, 2020 10:26 pm

I would suggest reading a book called “Doctoring Data” by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick – it highlights all the dirty tricks that Pharma uses to get drugs approved. I’m astonished these days when a drug isn’t approved, it means it failed spectacularly. Matt Ridley has lost his mind with this sort of enthusiasm, there’s no way in hell I’d voluntarily get this vaccine.

I don’t know if people know this but medical research is just as awful as climate research – it’s dominated by special interests. Check out the quotes in this article from heavy hitters in the medical publishing field – they know there are big problems and they don’t trust the research even published in their own journals.

https://rosemarycottageclinic.co.uk/blog/2020/01/15/corruption-of-medical-research-in-the-words-of-the-worlds-top-journal-editors/

Reply to  Bob Johnston
December 18, 2020 11:08 pm

Amen, Bob. I’ve been saying for years that if you think climate research is bad, you should look at medical research.

It’s ironic in your link that Fiona Godlee, former editor of the BMJ, would complain about scientific corruption when she was a major part of the hit job against Andrew Wakefield. https://ahrp.org/laffaire-wakefield-shades-of-dreyfus-bmjs-descent-into-tabloid-science/

Same thing goes for Richard Horton.

Last edited 10 months ago by Don132
Bob Johnston
Reply to  Don132
December 19, 2020 9:34 am

You’re absolutely correct, the pushback against Wakefield was patently unfair and unwarranted. When questioning something like vaccines results in what happened to Wakefield then the whole field is shit.

Greg
December 19, 2020 3:27 am

a grim little enemy that has defied every other weapon we have tried

Every other weapon? Hardly.

From remdesivir which the European Commission spend a billion euros on just a week before a report showing it was ineffective was published ( phew that was close, almost lost the kickbacks there ) to hand-washing and masks which are nothing but symbolic.

However, HCQ was either excluded from the tests or only tested in isolation on patients which were already in a critical state, when it is know to be too late for indications HCQ provides. ie tests were deliberately designed to fail.

It all stinks of corruption at the highest level.

December 19, 2020 4:03 am

Regardless of the supposed efficacy of this vaccine we are cautioned that it does not prevent transmission and does not make us immune and so we must continue to exercise social distancing and wear our face coverings for the foreseeable future, as well as display our ‘I’ve been vaccinated’ badge.

Thomas Gasloli
Reply to  G. Bailey
December 19, 2020 8:10 am

Isn’t this the most bizarre part of the vaccine campaign? They tell you the vaccine is a must but it will not result in a reduction in the draconian lockdown measures. If it worked, then as soon as the medical professionals and those in elder care facilities are vaccinated the draconian measures are unnecessary. This just doesn’t make any sense!

MarkG
Reply to  Thomas Gasloli
December 19, 2020 4:31 pm

That’s because it’s all nonsense.

TonyG
Reply to  G. Bailey
December 20, 2020 12:39 pm

“we are cautioned that it does not prevent transmission and does not make us immune”

So what’s the point of a vaccine at all, if it doesn’t change anything?

December 19, 2020 4:29 am

How will we know when the PLANdemic vaccine is working, when the survival rate goes from 99.7% to 99.8%?

Rhys Jaggar
December 19, 2020 9:08 am

An article which should never have been published because it miraculously airbrushes over all the unknown unknowns which may cause serious damage to people.

mRNA vaccines have never been properly tested in clinical trials and the global clinical trial is being rolled out as in effect a forced vaccination programme.

There have already been four serious anaphylactic reactions to the vaccines, put together in haste and solely characterised as poorly tested, made immune from liability and a never-ending cash cow to unprincipled investors in pharma.

This technology may well end up being good, but the author of this should be forcibly vaccinated ten times with it with no right to sue if they end up severely damaged.

There are regulations for medicines for a reason and this author should be castrated if they claim that the world should ditch such regulations for a virus which does not in any way represent a threat to human survival.

M Courtney
December 19, 2020 10:23 am

WUWT used to be an evidence-based science site that resisted fear and emotion in favour of the scientific method. It was a sceptic site.
But the comments here are panicked and superstitious.

MarkG
Reply to  M Courtney
December 19, 2020 4:28 pm

So explain, using science, why we all have to take a poorly-tested vaccine using a completely new technology for a virus with a 99.9% survival rate?

If the world cared about science, all the nonsense would have been tossed out months ago and life would be back to normal. This whole ‘pandemic’ is a huge scam.

Nick Schroeder
December 19, 2020 10:38 am

Only 0.8% of those TESTED showed POSITIVE, over 50% of those TESTED never saw a doctor, hospital or morgue, 1.8% of those POSITIVES died, 0.14% of those TESTED DIED.

85.6% of C-19 CASES are among those UNDER 65 years of age. (CDC)
80.1% of C-19 DEATHS are among those OVER 65 years of age. (16% of population)
24% of C-19 deaths occurred in nursing homes and hospice care.

Between 12/9/20 and 12/16/20 CDC logged 14,531 deaths attributed to Covid-19. There were 74,340 deaths due to all causes.

They were distributed as follows:
 Under 1 year 1         0.01%
1–4 years        1         0.01%
5–14 years      1         0.01%
15–24 years    9         0.06%
25–34 years    60       0.41%
35–44 years    184     1.27%
45–54 years    500     3.44%
55–64 years    1405   9.67%
65–74 years    3071   21.13%
75–84 years    4350   29.94%
85 years +      4949   34.06%
The 65+ demographic was accountable for 85% of those deaths.

If you are 65+ w multiple health issues in a crowded nursing home and the staff brings in C-19 you are screwed, but then you were screwed anyway. In other words: If you are already seriously ill, C-19 will probably finish you off, i.e. no different from the seasonal flu.

C-19 is not a problem for the young and healthy herd. Mother Nature and her buddy Grim Reaper are just doing their jobs, culling the herd of the too many, too old, too sick warehoused too close together as Medicare/Medicaid cash cows in poorly run contagious lethal elder care facilities.

Japan has the highest percentage of 65+, 27%, yet just over 2,700 deaths. (WHO)
What do they know/do the rest of the world does not?

TRM
Reply to  Nick Schroeder
December 20, 2020 4:17 am

PCR > 35 = BS

Japan and Taiwan apparently use inhaled steroids as first line of defence. In Texas, Dr. Richard Bartlett has been getting spectacular results with one called “Budesonide”.

willem
December 19, 2020 1:36 pm

https://sciencewithdrdoug.com/2020/08/01/is-a-coronavirus-vaccine-a-ticking-time-bomb/

https://sciencewithdrdoug.com/2020/11/27/will-an-rna-vaccine-permanently-alter-my-dna/

For those with patience to read a thorough explanation, the above are two great articles explaining vaccines, how the COVID-19 vaccine using this new technology differs from traditional vaccines, and the potential risks. The author is quite qualified.

ThunderChicken
December 19, 2020 1:37 pm

Just wondering…is anybody doing PCR testing on the recently vaccinated to measure positive cases? Definitely not a scientist but this might help validate or invalidate the PCR testing accuracy, no?

noaaprogrammer
Reply to  ThunderChicken
December 19, 2020 5:51 pm

“…is anybody doing PCR testing on the recently vaccinated to measure positive cases?”

Probably not yet because with some vaccines two doses are required for “full” immunity.

December 19, 2020 2:18 pm

FDA looking into multiple allergic reactions to the Pfizer covid19 vaccine:

https://www.rt.com/usa/510207-pfizer-vaccine-allergic-reactions/

Apparently there are also neurological reactions in the form of Bells Palsy.

https://www.iceagenow.info/four-volunteers-who-got-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-developed-bells-palsy/

Horrible to imagine our ambulance-chaser lawyers not able to sue the covid19 vaccine makers due to indemnity given. The horror! That practically undermines the business model of the USA. What will we watch on TV if there are no advertisements with drug reaction “no win no fee” ambulance-chasing messages?

TRM
December 19, 2020 4:28 pm

All this hype over a vaccine that has released the data from the trials where? Please people. We don’t need a vaccine when we have cures and there are at least 3 varying from almost 100% (1 &2) down to 95% (3).

If you doubt that these are actual cures feel free to discuss it with the doctors promoting them.

1) Inhaled steroids like Budesonide

The interview with Dr. Richard Bartlett has been BANNED BY YOUTUBE: 

But you can still see it here starting around the 4 minute mark:
https://banned.video/watch?id=5f06524a672706002f481047

Cheap and can be used on very sick people with serious existing health conditions.

2) Ivermectin + Doxycycline + Zinc

Professor Thomas Borody developer of the triple therapy treatment for peptic ulcers in 1987.
“It’s easier than treating the flu now”. “You can actually eradicate it”. “We know it’s curable”

http://covexit.com/we-know-its-curable-its-easier-than-treating-the-flu-professor-thomas-borody/

3) Swiss Policy Research HCQ+ Treatment Protocol (5 to 7 day regimen)
https://swprs.org/on-the-treatment-of-covid-19/

Zinc — 50 milligrams [mg] to 100 mg per day
Hydroxychloroquine — 400 mg per day
Quercetin — 500 mg to 1,000 mg per day
Bromhexine — 50 mg to 100 mg per day
Azithromycin — up to 500 mg per day
Heparin — usual dosage

DonM
Reply to  TRM
December 21, 2020 8:09 pm

I can’t find anything recent on Dr. Bartlett ….

TRM
December 19, 2020 4:32 pm

Moderna (Gates & Fauci, etc have a BLATANT conflict of interest)

“It’s completely correct to say that NIAID will reap a profit on the Moderna/NIAID vaccine. There are 6 NIAID scientists who work for Dr. Fauci, each of whom would get $150,000/year indefinitely as their reward. So that’s $900,000 to his subordinates every year in perpetuity.” – Mary Holland, General Counsel, RFK Jr’s “Children’s Health Defense”

not you
December 19, 2020 5:14 pm

my goodness, if i see more one post about the flu disappearing i may explode.
the cdc stopped aggregating the states weekly mmwr reports!
they announced it on their site.
the p/i rages on same as ever. here is the latest report from the PRDH
face diapers, anti-social distancing, lock downs, etc are not slowing or stopping the flu and they are not slowing or stopping the common cold causing corona virus
that is why the cdc stopped aggregating the stats

Harold
December 20, 2020 11:52 am

C-19, ” a grim little enemy that has defied every other weapon we have tried” apart from hydorxychloroquine ?

TonyG
December 20, 2020 12:19 pm

Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but medicnes “that reprogram our cells” are a bit troubling to me, in principle. What other sorts of “reprogramming” could be done? And what guarantee do we have that there aren’t long-term adverse effects to said “reprogramming”?

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