Wuhan Virus Vaccines

By Rud Istvan

Since respected ‘experts’ like Dr. Fauci are saying there is no return to normal until an effective vaccine is widely available, I thought I would use my hard earned infectious disease knowledge, (previously explained in Wuhan post #1) plus a day of new research to provide a WUWT synopsis of at least a present partial state of play, deep diving on two of the US most promising vaccine candidates. (There are at least 8 promising vaccines in active global development; too many to globally cover in detail in this guest post.)


The true origin was from Dr. Jenner in 1796, when he observed that a mild cowpox infection protected from deadly smallpox infection, and then tested that observational hypothesis on 8 year old James Phipps before his (now ethically unthinkable) variolation. See www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PMC1200696 for the details of this miracle. Older American smallpox vaccination shoulder scars are merely the scratched sites of your single mild cowpox infection vaccination, no different than young James Phipps in May 1796.

The general vaccination idea is to alert the immune system (both B cell humoral antibodies and T cell killer systems, if possible) to pathogen antigens without triggering the actual disease. If the disease pathogen does later arrive, the immune system is “primed” to defeat it rapidly. Many deadly diseases have been mostly defeated thanks to vaccination, including smallpox, polio, pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella (MMR), …

The antivaxxer canard that MMR vaccine causes autism goes back to a very small sample scientific scandal by a crooked British gastroenterologist, explained in detail in the Coincidence chapter of my ebook The Arts of Truth. Short medical synopsis: the digestive tract has little to do with brain function. Short coincidence synopsis: autism does not manifest before 18 months of age, and only sometimes thereafter; until then the brain is still ‘sculpting’ connection/removal of neurons. (A blind ‘lazy eye’ is one physical example of this early neuron sculpting process.) It so happens that pediatricians recommend MMR vaccination at around 18 months to 24 months, when autism can first manifest.

There are at least two insurmountable potential Wuhan vaccine problems.

  1. Some vaccinations last for a lifetime (smallpox). Others do not (chickenpox/shingles partial lifetime, tetanus ~5 years). We dunno what might be the case for Wuhan.
  2. Viruses, especially RNA viruses (see rumination #1) mutate. That is why the annual flu vaccine ranges from good to bad. The vaccine targets three or four of the most commonly circulating flu varieties from this year, for next year’s vaccine. The problem is that the virus is always mutating, so by the end of next year what is circulating is mostly mutations of the types last year’s vaccine missed. We do not know yet the rate of Wuhan mutation. It appears maybe less that influenza, but we already know of at least 40 mutations, plus a less virulent US West Coast strain directly from China, and a more virulent East Coast strain imported from China via Italy. (Why Gov. Cuomo said NY had a European virus problem.) So how good the coverage of a possible Wuhan vaccine might be is also a speculation.


It is an enveloped single stranded positive sense RNA virus. It has three neutralizing antibody targets: capsid N protein, and the S1 and S2 sites on the S spike protein. See rumination #6. With careful antibody selection, these can provide exquisitely good antibody test/vaccine targets. The newly EUA approved Abbott antibody test is 99.6% sensitive and 100% specific! (See rumination #6 for the HUGE beneficial significance of this new Abbott antibody test development compared to the Becton-Dickenson test announced a month ago.)

But except for a canine enteric coronavirus vaccine (Merck Animal Health), which does NOT protect against the canine respiratory form of the same virus, there has NEVER been a successful coronavirus vaccine developed–ever. So despite Dr. Fauci’s hopes and efforts, that may well remain true with Wuhan. This is a risky uncharted business with significant economic consequences.


There are in the US at least two interesting and very different initiatives. What makes them scientifically interesting is that they both come from new science ‘vaccine platforms’. That is, a more general purpose scientific/laboratory system that pre-existed Wuhan, enabling faster specific vaccine development.

The fastest, and IMO riskiest, platform is Moderna Therapeutics, who have finished Phase 1 and just got FDA EUA permission to go into Phase 2 testing in humans. (For the uneducated about formal FDA stuff required by the statutory PFDA Act of 1906 as later amended–and renamed the FDCA–EUA means Emergency Use Authorization (cutting regulatory corners), Phase 1 is a few tens of humans primarily for safety, Phase 2 (which can have A dose ranging and then B efficacy subparts) in more humans (hundreds), and then Phase 3 where the P2A/B selected dose is tested for safety and efficacy in many (thousands), which if it works and is safe eventually leads to FDA legal approval).

The Moderna platform was conceived only for viruses. In this case, it is using synthetic messenger RNA (mRNA) from Wuhan, hoping that the immune system will respond to the injection of those foreign nucleoside entities with neutralizing antibodies. They were fast because they already had the RNA platform, so as soon as Moderna got the Wuhan RNA genetic code late January, they could identify likely antibody targets.

Unfortunately, the just passed Phase 1 safety trial COULD mean it simply doesn’t work at all. Moderna has never gotten a vaccine approved off its platform despite being founded in 2010. Maybe this time will be different. Whether if successful they can scale production is unknown—the CEO just said that if approved, its vaccine would be limited in quantity.

The other big US platform is J&J’s Janssen Pharmaceuticals. Their platform has also been developing for several years, and has two components. They have a genetically modified human common cold adenovirus (AdVir) that is used as a vaccine genetic carrier. The adenovirus modifications mean it CANNOT anymore replicate in humans; it just delivers DNA. (Remember from my post 1, adeno is only 5% of common colds, but is a DNA virus.) Plus, a human derived special (epithelial?) cell line where the modified adenovirus can rapidly replicate in large (1000 liter) bioreactors to make lots of vaccine ‘virus’ carrier” fast despite not in humans. They have used this platform to develop potential vaccines for Zika, RSV, and HIV, all in Phase 2-3 testing. So a lot of the background human FDA sciency/safety viral carrier stuff has already been done.

They used this platform to insert a variety of Wuhan potential RNA (transcribed as DNA) immune system targets into AdVir in late January (the transcribed DNA replication versions of the RNA viral messenger protein(s) fragments, hopefully), then used animal testing to select a primary vaccine candidate plus two backups for further “transcribed DNA’ animal testing now ongoing. They hope to be in humans (skipping platform unnecessary Phase 1 safety) in September, and say they could be producing millions of doses monthly by early 2021. This, IMO, has a good chance of succeeding given both the platform and the process they are using, despite the fact that it is a DNA, not RNA, genetic viral system. Maybe our immune systems do not care in which form the viral genetics are presented. We can hope.  

Concluding Remarks

This is complicated stuff. We are seeing some of the best of modern science (genetic sequencing, Moderna, J&J) and some of the worst (Neil Fergusons’s Imperial College epidemiological model garbage coding) on display at the same time. As said before, analogies to ‘climate science’ are legion.   As a simple coding example, naive infectious rate R0 is both an input and an output in all epidemiological models depending on personal behaviors.  (Naives, self-distancings).  BIG math model PROBLEMs unsolvable except by beliefs

303 thoughts on “Wuhan Virus Vaccines

    • “No return to normal until we get an effective vaccine”. Definitely, for a Black Death, killing over half of the population. For Covid-19 it is a question of precautionary principle. If you believe in it, as Dr. Fauci probably does, then he is right. But not everybody is a believer. We should create a big ghetto for believers, say the Long Island, and let them restrict movement in and out. The rest of us, willing to live with a small chance of getting an incurable disease with a maybe 0.5% mortality, can return to normal – slowly – starting today.

      Dr Fauci neglected to mention another approach – a treatment. Clearly his beliefs do not include a hydroxychloroquine, or whatever tomorrow may bring.

      • Does HCQ actually work?

        I know one or two oddballs claim that it’s silver bullet but in clinical tests it’s been shown to be ineffectual.

        • It works great if given early, not so well if given late. Unfortunately the studies you are thinking of used it late or extremely late. Clinical results of early use are all positive. It should also be combined with Zink and antibiotics.

          • Elof
            That protocol results in treating people who may not even need medical intervention. Dr. Osterholm estimates that 80% of people who are infected have mild to barely noticeable symptoms. Of the infected group, 10% will seek medical care, but not need hospitalization. If they are given HCQ they can be expected to recover; they are expected to recover even if they don’t receive HCQ! Of the other 10% who need hospitalization, half will need intensive care, exactly the group you consider “late.” So, the remaining 5% who are hospitalized, but not in need of intensive care, are problematic. That is, they also may recover without HCQ, but satisfy the protocol for treatment with HCQ. This is what is called a biased sample.

        • If you know of a clinical test of HCQ/Azithromycin/Zinc regimes that:
          a) did not involve much higher doses than have been found effective by several European and South Korean doctors/clinics in actual use,
          b) did not involve waiting until the victims were “hopeless cases” admitted to hospitals with major lung issues as in, ventilator required,
          …let me know. Basically clinical tests seem to have been geared for failure.
          I’m not a conspiracy theorist but HCQ costs a few dollars…the various antiviral cocktails and Remdesivir that are being pushed now cost hundreds to thousands per patient. Hmmm. I wonder why…

          • I read this study. It was also late stage patients who were given HCQ. Not optimal for giving HCQ in the first place.

          • Norman
            You asked, “But, what do treating doctors know anyway, right?” They are of the opinion, “Evaluations of COVID-19 treatments demonstrate that physicians have yet to find a universally effective solution; no treatment achieves a majority of physicians rating it as highly effective, with most garnering between 16% to 37% highly effective scores.”

            And, “A significant finding was that not all hospitals have access to all treatments they would like to use. We asked physicians which treatments they would use if they had access to any treatment – and the two treatments we saw clear demand for were Remdesivir and Plasma.”

            It looks to me like HCQ is the drug of choice because it is available, albeit not thought to be highly effective. Did you read your linked article towards a view of understanding the situation, or were you just looking for some numbers to support your belief?

            [The above quotes are from your link.]

          • Norman
            You asked, “But, what do treating doctors know anyway, right?” They are of the opinion “Evaluations of COVID-19 treatments demonstrate that physicians have yet to find a universally effective solution; no treatment achieves a majority of physicians rating it as highly effective, with most garnering between 16% to 37% highly effective scores.

            “A significant finding was that not all hospitals have access to all treatments they would like to use. We asked physicians which treatments they would use if they had access to any treatment – and the two treatments we saw clear demand for were Remdesivir and Plasma.”

            It appears that HCQ may be the drug of choice for 55% because it is available, but not the optimal drug. They are making do with what they have. All the more reason to continue trying to find better choices.

            The above quotes are from your link. Did you read the article to try to understand the whole situation, or were you just looking for numbers to support your belief about HCQ?

          • Stephen: “Not Settled” is true the way you stated…

            But I will add something I think is much more useful.
            That it is not settled is a subjective statement. It’s settled by people who use it successfully and some people call that subjective believe anecdotal. To call it anecdotal is a subjective statement. So much for subjectivity. Nothing solved yet.

            So I would say, correctly, that it is settled that the mechanism in fact stops viral replication, and that a Zn ionophore carries Zn to where it stops viral replication. When it is proven that it does work (and it will be proven), as many already know now (while lives can be easily and factually saved), they will retroactively have to say it was always as it was claimed, but we did not know then.

            That is, HCQ and Zn are an inexpensive, relatively safe and extremely good thing to prescribe as soon as possible for those who get sick with the virus.

            I think these words are correct. Bad that is not settled… sadly.

        • So, the field test don’tqua? When and where were clinical test performed? Tell that to the 500 in Albany,Ga. and the 1060+ in France.

        • So, the field test don’t qualify ? When and where were clinical test performed? Tell that to the 500 in Albany,Ga. and the 1060+ in France.

      • No return to normal means more government control and no freedom. Those who think that sane people are going to stand for more government control, this one go round is all they are going to get before civil disobedience turns to a hot war.

      • Men who recover from an influenza infection are immune to infection from the strain of flu they had. The influenza problem is the result of the ability of that virus to mutate very quickly and produce new strains to which men are immunologically naive.

        We do not know whether or not Wuhan Virus is like influenza in that respect.

    • Most people will be immune.

      Not a chance. Early signs from the huge ongoing serological study (by Oxford U. & ONS) in the UK suggest only about 4% of the population have contracted the virus. This is at the cost of a ~40k excess deaths since early March.

      It’s looks very likely that Ferguson’s IFR estimate of 0.9% will be very close to the mark for the UK.

      • Careful with that claim about “excess deaths”. That metric is a very blunt tool. From what I read so far, excess deaths for winter are down in the UK.

        As an example, there are about 50,000 excess deaths in the UK per winter attributable to chronic underheating cause directly by the increasing price of energy, in turn directly caused by adding so much “renewable energy” to the national grid.

        Such assessments are made by watching the all-cause mortality and parsing based on expertise and experience. As in Canada and the USA, the all-cause death rate is dropping. Even dipping into a GBD analysis and looking at flu deaths, for example, shows a drop from the last two years. Claiming there are excess deaths related to “flus” above the recent norm is not (yet) supported by the data.

        Obviously the disease spread models were wildly in error, but how wildly? We don’t know yet, but keeping everyone indoors and minimizing contact saves some lives and risks others.

        It is all so very interesting.

    • Perhaps in the fullness of time Covid19 will be seen to have been a fortuitous “dry run” if it leads to the development of methods to create effective and quickly produced vaccines. I fear that this really is a case of crying wolf and the next time a truly general pathogenic virus emerges/escapes the world economy will neither be able or willing to accept the restrictions imposed by fearful government. However, as the corollary of this dry run is going to be truly society ending economic and political turmoil what, at this stage, does it matter…..

    • A Texas A&M science researcher who has studied coronaviruses for years said in a televised interview that no human vaccine had ever been developed for these viruses. He also said that that the antibodies that victims developed from having the disease were shed by the body as early as two months and were usually gone in six months. Based this, if a vaccine is ever developed will it have to be administered every four to six months? Why would antibodies from a vaccine be retained any longer that those resulting from actually having the disease?

      I have no confidence that these efforts will succeed and believe we will be more successful pursuing medicines and treatment protocols for Covid-19.

  1. This is the attitude when one puts a virologist in charge. One tool, that’s it—every problem is a nail.

    And let’s not forget how often Fauci has been wrong.

    2.2 million deaths in the US . . . .

      • Fauci is Trump’s lightning rod. Trump will not dump Falsie until it’s safe to do so. #WuWHOflu.

      • Trump kept Comey, Rosenstein… like forever.

        And he kept Mueller who could do his great audition, not answering questions…

        • Comey, Rosenstein, and Mueller should all go to jail for their crimes. With the caveat that Mueller should be of sound mind. I dont know if Mueller is senile or not, and was just used as a prop for the Special Counsel investigation of Trump/Russia collusion, but if that is not the case and he has all his faculties about him, then he should definitely go to jail, too.

          All three of these men knew from the very beginning that there was no Russian collusion and no crimes being committed by the Trump administration. This whole thing was a frame job meant to undermine Trump and it would have been obvious to anyone who had the facts on hand, and Mueller had the facts on hand.

          I want to know where the Republicans go to get their 2018 mid-term election back. The investigation of Trump was based on nothing, no evidence, and they knew it, yet they let the public believe that there was a substantial case against Trump, and this affected the thought processes of many Republicans in the House of Representatives and caused them to decide to retire. Something like 45 incumbent Republicans retired before the 2018 elections. All Republicans needed to do was get 20 of them reelected to keep control of the House. So how many Repubican house seats did we lose over the Russiagate lies? Answer: Enough to make Nancy Pelosi the Speaker of the House and paralyze the House of Representives.

          When Mueller took over the investigation, within a week or two he should have had access to all the information he needed to realize there was no case against Trump or any of his people, yet Mueller remained silent and allowed the 2018 election to come and go without telling the truth to the American people.

          It’s Treason all the way down.

          • Tom Abbott: Brilliantly written. Thank you for this and other sobering honest and cogent posts.

            I will steal some of your words, if that is OK.

            One thing, I really had some belief that Mueller would have surprised us and did a real investigation for the good of the USA. And that would have revealed that this was based on fraudulent information from…

            But I was wrong. We got a terribly written report, designed to intentionally leave scars, and prevent Russia gate from ending the way it should have.
            Written that we cannot exonerate… and all the BS surrounding Obstruction was utter evil in plain sight!

          • Mueller did not seem so sharp, but he did not have senile dementia.

            He may not have done anything in the “Mueller probe” but let it run under his name and allegedly is supervision.

      • I agree with this, suspect Dr. Fauci with so many are going to be as negative as possible until the elections are over, a conspiracy to hurt Trump. Do I know this? No, maybe the Democrats and Trumps enemies are letting Dr. Fauci look good to hurt Trump, not Dr. Fauci’s fault. But one should go carefully thru Dr. Fausi’s statement to see if he is trying to distance himself from the President and hurt him that way.

      • “President Trump needs to ask for Dr. Fauci’s resignation.”

        Dr. Fauci is just doing his job. If you don’t like the lockdown blame Trump or your local authority figure. Dr. Fauci has nothing to do with it.

        People don’t like the lockdown policy so they demonize Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. That’s the same thing the Left does to people they want to silence.

        Rush thinks Trump is a dupe of Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. That’s how convoluted the thinking is getting. Does anyone think Trump is a dupe? Other than Rush, I mean.

        • “Dr. Fauci has nothing to do with it.”

          That’s false. With the love affair the media and the Left have with Fauci, every word he says drives policy across the country.

          This would be like saying that the CEO of a company declaring that he thinks bankruptcy is imminent is not to blame for the crashing stock price because the investors sell their stock.

          • Faucis links to gilead gates and cdc dont matter? or clintons?
            hmm like tamiflu and a certain politician with sotck who helped push that through way back when h1n1 hit…

          • “Faucis links to gilead gates and cdc dont matter? or clintons?”

            If you have something to offer in the way of evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Dr. Fauci, and those other entities, you should post it. Otherwise, this is just another unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

          • The case of Tamiflu is interesting: there is very modest evidence that it’s useful on average and a lot of disturbing cases of nasty side effects, incl. hallucinations.

            Hundreds of millions of Plaquenil tablets were sold in France with a few hundreds of SE notifications, even with the very serious under-notification issue in France, it can’t be so bad. And even with the lack of evidence that Plaquenil saves lives, the fact it reduces viral load quickly is very interesting: it isn’t just about not being on a ventilator and dying, it’s also about not getting long term respiratory problems from fibrosis.

        • @ Tom A’bbutt: “If you don’t like the lockdown blame Trump…” Sorry, POTUS in no way issued any lock-down. In your words “If you have something to offer in the way of evidence of” … It’s the local and state tyrants issuing dictates and their none thinking lackies doing their dirty work enforcement. Tyranny at its finest by intimidation, fear, and threat. And “just doing their job” is akin to mercenaries just doing their job. Example: Police puppets making illegal and unconstitutional arrests as just “doing their job.”

      • There are places that are not locked down at all without the laughably unreal infection rates, and it’s “possible” that the bubonic plague pops up tomorrow and causes the next real plague.

        • Those places (such as Sweden) don’t have “lockdown”, but they do have social distancing.

          The final death rate is easily estimated from the current one, with a guess for how many have been infected. It is easy to end up with millions.

        • Q: If a bunch of lions is a pride, and a bunch of geese is a gaggle, what do you call more than one ‘expert?’

          A: A plague of experts.

          The next “plague” is already here:

      • Actually this is a good example of how you can get completely different mindsets to what are basically the same problem.

        I was (cough) “Social Distancing” with some friends a couple of Fridays ago. One of them works reasonably high up within the tax dept. Someone has to I guess. As a result he understands as an insider how government bureaucracy exists.

        I on the other side of our 1.5m wide personal safe space am an Engineering Professional existing in the private sector.

        So we are sitting in his man cave conducting our Secret Men’s Business (playing games actually) and a situation developed where my friend started discussing plans (game tactics to be honest) based on the possibilities of an event existing.

        I countered that this was a bad plan as probability was against you and in the long run you were going to lose. Tactics that relied on the thin end of the probability bell curve were bad tactics.

        No! I was thinking about it from an engineering point of view and ignoring the fact the POSSIBILITY of an unlikely event still happening still existed, therefore as long as that possibility still existed as one of the outcomes you could/should still act like it is about to happen regardless of the probability of that outcome.

        The logic of the actual situation in question was… interesting and probably not worth explaining in detail but it was the eye opening/jaw dropping take away from the discussion was that within some of the planning sectors of the government (or at least the ones my friend worked in) possibilities of events (ie they might happen) were more important than the actual likelihood of the event happening. Because I had an engineering mind I was unable to think like that because my engineering mindset always broke things down to probabilities.

        This, in a broad sense I guess, is more or less correct. There is no ‘safe’ in real terms. There is minimalising risks in a pragmatic manner. You do not design a family car to be proof against 7.62N because the situations where these vehicles would be exposed to small arms fire are low enough to be ignored from design. Cars however do travel at speed so designing for crash loads is valid. Probability and consequence.

        Governments seem however to honestly believe in simple possibility. There is a possibility of, for example, a Second Wave, therefore it must be considered to exist. The counter argument that Second Wave is a theory based on a lot of assumptions doesn’t hold with this mindset as the possibility still exists.

        There MAY be up to 2 million dead in your country. That is enough. Make policy now. Stay Home. Protect the NHS.

    • M_S
      “And let’s not forget how often Fauci has been wrong.

      2.2 million deaths in the US . . . .”
      Fauci said 2 million without intervention. And Trump repeated it numerous times. They said 100k with lockdown. That’s looking light at this stage.

    • “And let’s not forget how often Fauci has been wrong.

      2.2 million deaths in the US”

      Noone has demonstrated that this number is wrong or that Fauci is wrong in using this number.

      That is the high estimate of the University of Washington’s initial estimate of how many people would die of Wuhan virus infection if no steps were taken to keep it from spreading through the population.

      The University of Washington initial estimate for unmitigated deaths was from one million to 2.2 million deaths. That’s what got President Trump’s attention.

      These numbers have not been refuted and are not “wrong” because the U.S. took measures to slow down the Wuhan virus spread, so those numbers no longer apply, since they are unmitigated numbers, in a mitigated world. Except they will apply in the future when we finally discover just how infectious the Wuhan virus is and how deadly, and then we can calculate how many deaths would have occurred without mitigation. Then we will know if those numbers are right or not.

      The University of Washington also did an initial estimate of how many deaths would occur if steps were taken to slow down the spread of the Wuhan virus (mitigation). This estimate was in a range from 100,000 to 140,000 people dead with mitigation.

      So what is the real world telling us?

      Well, the real world tells us that almost 85,000 Americans have died from Wuhan virus as of today.

      The initial estimate of the University of Washington was 100,000 dead. Current dead = 85,000.

      So the estimate President Trump and Dr. Fauci, and Dr. Birx have been working with, from the beginning, is now just short of the low estimate initially put forward.

      What this means is all the virus computer model bashers, who said the models are junk, are just 15 thousand deaths short of being demonstrably wrong. Some other virus computer models may be suspect, but not the one that President Trump is using to guide us through this crisis, the Univeristy of Washington estimates.

      The UW new estimate last week for the number of deaths was 134,000, which was a revised estimate based on the amount of socializing Americans were estimated to be doing and now that has been further raised to 137,000, which rise, is again calculated on an increase in social contact as the States open up.

      Not all virus models are junk. One of them, the most important one of them, the one President Trump uses, looks like it is right on the money in its predictions, and it was right on the money from the very start, based almost solely on educated guesses by the creators of the model. Not bad!

      Yes, the virus computer model bashers are getting ready to be demonstrably wrong. All that fire and fury over junk virus computer models and it signified nothing, other than massive confusion on the part of the bashers and on the part of those who listen to them. You were wrong. Now you can see it in black and white. Everybody can see it. What’s it going to take to hit 100,000? Three more weeks? Something like that.

      Anyone who bashed the University of Washington virus computer model ought to apologize to all concerned. You have done everyone a huge disservice, by confusing the issue to the max, and in the end you turn out to be wrong, wrong, wrong. You have misled people, whether intentionally or unintentionally. The least you could do is stop sowing confusion for political purposes.

      • Look. I have nothing against modeling per se, but anyone who says these models are dead on is left with the embarrassing fact that a very large proportion of deaths and infections result from very stupid government policies — i.e. putting the still infectious back in nursing homes. If any model actually included stuff like that, well “I’ll eat my hat” is the general expression.

        What this means is the models are actually overestimating potential problems for most of us, not including major factors, thus underestimating for others, and then being somewhat near correct on average. But then we come up with prescriptions for “keep safe” which are applied uniformly in an enforcement sense, and do not apply uniformly in a practical sense. They are unnecessary in many situations, and are becoming modern versions of superstitions.

        The models are not capable of capturing 10% of the issues we face — 90% are the results of deliberate decisions we make regarding the disease. Making bad decisions is easy in this environment and considering that stocks of foods are always pretty short, and most jobs depend on a near total overturn of money every year, we have little time to snap out of our magical thinking or 2/3 of the world economy will be gone, and famine will take its place.

        • You make some good points, Kevin. Eventually all the numbers will be sorted out, it’s just going to take a while.

  2. I don’t care who invents a vaccine. I won’t be taking it.
    Bill Gates, George Soros and Tony Fauci would be attractive guinea pigs.

  3. And the elephant in the room. Conflict of interest.

    NIH, meaning Fauci’s group along with CDC employees, have a direct interest in the Moderna research. Under the Baye-Dole patent act, public employees (Fauci, et al) can own patents to their research. Fauci owns many patents. His employees own many patents. Moderan and Fauci’s employees “partnered” doing joint research of the very vaccine cited in this article.

    Further, the Gates Foundation (Melissa and Bill) have a long history with Fauci (and his employees) to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in projects. Oddly enough, by a strange coincidence, Gates has provided millions to — Moderna.

    Further still, Moderna has stated they’re partnering to have companies produce at least a billion doses sometime next year.

    Thus, you have a company working directly with a gov agency where each has very large financial interests being funded by both gov money and a billionaire who knows has been successful only with a error prone software system. Do the math.

    Then, on top of it all, Dr. Fauci casually declaring the crisis won’t pass until there are vaccines but failing to mention (a) the conflicts he and the gov agencies have with Moderna/Gates and (b) at the very best, the vaccine will likely not even be 50% effective.

    Spend some time on the i-net to verify all the above to your satisfaction as to truth.

    An old saying is “a man’s heart is where he puts his money”. For our experts in gov, it surely appears to be with Moderna?

    • I saw that the cost per dose for Gilead’s Remdesivir may be $4,300. Compare that to the cost per dose for hydroxychloroquine at 10 cents and there certainly is a financial motive for pushing one over the other. I am not proposing that there is a tie in between those promoting Remdesivir while deriding the use of hydroxychloroquine and the $100s of Billions that Gilead will earn from the use Remdesivir as the primary treatment for COVID-19. It is intriguing to contemplate the possibility particularly in light of Baye-Doyle.

      • Brooks
        Is that estimate of $4300 for the retail cost, or the co-pay that most people will be responsible for? My co-pay for HCQ from the VA is 10 cents, but I’m sure it is much higher for anyone who doesn’t have insurance.

        • Clyde

          In Canada I bought plain Quinine for $30 for 100 x 200 mg.

          It worked. I used about 20 so it came to $6.

          The reason Fauci et all delayed any advocacy of HCQ was to give time for Remdesivir to get emergency clearance from the FDA which took a month. Before that it could only be used on “compassionate grounds” because it wasn’t approved for any disease whereas HCQ use was “off label”, a far higher standard of acceptance.

          • Crispin in Waterloo
            You claimed, “I used about 20 so it came to $6.” Unless you can sell or find some other good use for the remaining 80 pills, the 20 that you used cost you $30.

      • In my area according to GoodRx.com, I can get 60 tablets of 200mg Hydroxychlorquinine (Generic Plaquenil) for $14.95 at Kroger with a free discount coupon I can print from the GoodRX website. That’s the best price in this area, but Costco’s price is $20.41 and a bunch of others are all under $30.

        Azithromycin (Generic Zithromax) in a 6-tablet dose (250mg) can be had from several sources for under $10, and only two suppliers over $20.

        I’m not making any recommendation for their effectiveness, but the question was about cost. I’d call that cheap.

        • Alan
          The unanswered question is what insurance companies will expect the patient to pay for remdesivir or other new medicines.

          My understanding is that the VA has a policy of no charge for income-qualified veterans, and a co-pay of $8 for a single prescription (7 to 30 days) for others. Assuming that remdesivir is shown to work, and is generally available, then it should be cheap for those enrolled in the VA system.

          • Clyde,
            Having worked in different health insurers for 25+ years (in the medical department), I would say that all third party payers (likely the VA too) will cover a vaccine for COVID at 100% especially given the national pressure to get one when available and the fear that has been generated with this virus.

            My employer has been covering the regular flu vaccine at 100% since 2010 because they want employees to get them (now working in the hospital system again). Plus it ticks off a CMS guideline for hospitals – to have a certain percent of employees vaccinated. Just my opinion.

          • No, the question is how much it costs, period. Somebody pays the cost, one way or another. Either 1) the VA does not get an increase in budget, and pays the extra $4,292 from current funding – $4,292 worth of health care that is not provided to veterans for other things. Or 2) the VA gets a corresponding increase in budget, and pays the extra $4,292 – $4,292 that is transferred from current taxpayers via a tax increase, or $4,292 that is floated with government debt, and thus transferred to future taxpayers (your children, grandchildren, etc.).

            Actually, there would be a mix of those ways to pay Gilead, the details of which they don’t care about – they get $4,300.

            ($4,292 sounds like peanuts when spread across a few million veterans, or more than a hundred million taxpayers. So it is. Until you apply the multiplier for the number of patients treated – and realize that this is why your veteran relative wasn’t diagnosed with cancer, or you can’t have a modest vacation after paying this year’s income tax.)

          • Writing Observer
            Basically, what you said is true. However, another wrinkle is that the VA won’t pay that estimated $4,300 because the VA negotiates lower costs because of the volume they do. Also, the VA subsidizes the expensive medications with charging the same amount for much cheaper drugs. Then, there is the possibility that Congress will step in and either mandate lower prices because the entire country is at risk, or tax Gillead for excessive profits, and use that tax money to reimburse the VA.

            But, you always have the option of asking for the dime per tab medicine. The trouble is, you just might get what you pay for.

        • Azithromycin for ear aches, and chloroquine for malaria is good medical advice. In combination for CoVid19 is experimental at best, and likely not going to be a more statistically effective treatment than chicken soup when 96% of infected people recover anyway….

          • That is your opinion for better or worse.
            My opinion is that my post here is helpful and yours was not helpful.

            The mechanism is clear regardless of your opinion.

            There are no other choices beyond taking advantage of what we do know.

            Take Zn to make sure you’re not deficient and Zn ionophore quercetin and make sure you’re not deficient in Vit D levels. So take 6000IU D per day or make sure to get sunshine over much of your body just enough not to turn pink.

            Very inexpensive and plenty of upside for this nutrition advice.

            This allows our bodies to do what they were designed to do with an unfair advantage over the virus.

          • Yes, Mario, some swear by eye of Newt as well…..and 1000 units of Vitamin D is lots….

          • DMacKenzie: You wrote:”Yes, Mario, some swear by eye of Newt as well…..and 1000 units of Vitamin D is lots….”

            I don’t know if you’re being snarky, or you don’t know things. 1000IU of vitamin is is not lots. Try again. What you are writing is direct misinformation. My suggestion, think before you post something.

            Here’s a low number: 30 minutes of midday summer sun exposure in Oslo, Norway was equivalent to consuming 10,000–20,000 IU of vitamin D.

            You get much more in lower latitudes and it’s not toxic at those levels!

    • Dr. Fauci is listed as an inventor on 8 US patents. All of them are owned by (assigned to) Uncle Sam. Moderna is the assignee of 131 US patents. A quick sampling of those showed only inventors who reside near Cambridge MA, while NIH researchers are most likely to resider near Washington DC. Can you give an example of a patent whose success would directly benefit a NIH or CDC employee?

  4. There are problems with creating a vaccine – true.

    Which means that we either eradicate the disease completely (unlikely) or learn to live with it. That means developing an appropriate treatment which makes the disease (ideally) less lethal than flu.

    Treatments can be developed much faster than vaccines. But unfortunately, the development of treatments has now become a political issue. Every time Trump mentions a treatment, the world rejects it out of hand.

    If Trump keeps on mentioning medicines which stand a good chance of success, we will never have a decent treatment…

    • Which tells you that this was never ever about saving lives. I have met a lot of people who do not think it is a coincidence this virus became an issue after the Trump impeachment failed and during a US election year.

      • It is not impossible that CCP used the crisis as an opportunity to seed the more virulent strain upon its enemies and competitors.

    • Just reported yesterday on Medrx.com, a retrospective study of 900 critical Covid-19 patients in the NYU hospital system. Half were given HCQ plus azithromycin, half HCQ plus Az plus Zinc sulfate. The HCQ plus zinc arm had 1.5x faster time to discharge, and a 44% less chance of dying. Clinically VERY significant. What Fauci demanded, now done. Bad news for Fauci and big pharma. There IS a proven cheap, safe COVID-19 therapy regime.

      The results of the better designed prospective U.Mn/McGill study are not yet available, but probably will be similar since they reduced the original design sample size to speed it up.

      • But will Fauci et al recognize the success with HCQ + ZnSO4? The more he ignores any possible good news and sticks with the message he gave yesterday, the more it will fuel the conspiracy theories surrounding him.

        • Doesn’t have to be zinc sulfate. There are forms more absorbable. Don’t know why they use that form.

          • Easy chemistry, zinc is paired with a non-toxic (in small quantities) carrier ion. Zinc is a +2 ion, the sulfate ion is -2 (doubly de-protonated sulfuric acid) so it is slightly basic.

          • Joel
            Are you suggesting that zinc sulfate is superior to zinc gluconate, which was chosen specifically for treating colds?

          • He simply asked “why.”
            I said nothing about what formulation is “better”.
            And I’m not sure Zinc works at all.

        • Thanks!

          And for the vitamin D link. I’ve been urging everyone to take vitamin D3 and zinc supplements during the WuWHOFlu outbreak.

        • And here is MedCram’s analysis of this paper.
          (If YouTube censors this link, you can find it on MedCram.com)

      • Rud, thankyou for the post. Do you have a view of the relative efficacy of other zinc ionophores such as quercetin compared to chloroquine? As quercetin doesn’t have side effects, and therefore a lot could be dosed, I am wondering why it is being ignored.

        • Zn ionophores like f.e. pyrithione (PT) has benn tested 2010 against among others SARS-CoV:

          Increasing the intracellular Zn2+ concentration with zinc-ionophores like pyrithione (PT) can efficiently impair the replication of a variety of RNA viruses, including poliovirus and influenza virus. For some viruses this effect has been attributed to interference with viral polyprotein processing. In this study we demonstrate that the combination of Zn2+ and PT at low concentrations (2 µM Zn2+ and 2 µM PT) inhibits the replication of SARS-coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and equine arteritis virus (EAV) in cell culture. The RNA synthesis of these two distantly related nidoviruses is catalyzed by an RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp), which is the core enzyme of their multiprotein replication and transcription complex (RTC). Using an activity assay for RTCs isolated from cells infected with SARS-CoV or EAV—thus eliminating the need for PT to transport Zn2+ across the plasma membrane—we show that Zn2+ efficiently inhibits the RNA-synthesizing activity of the RTCs of both viruses. Enzymatic studies using recombinant RdRps (SARS-CoV nsp12 and EAV nsp9) purified from E. coli subsequently revealed that Zn2+ directly inhibited the in vitro activity of both nidovirus polymerases. More specifically, Zn2+ was found to block the initiation step of EAV RNA synthesis, whereas in the case of the SARS-CoV RdRp elongation was inhibited and template binding reduced. By chelating Zn2+ with MgEDTA, the inhibitory effect of the divalent cation could be reversed, which provides a novel experimental tool for in vitro studies of the molecular details of nidovirus replication and transcription.

          Zn2+ Inhibits Coronavirus and Arterivirus RNA Polymerase Activity In Vitro and Zinc Ionophores Block the Replication of These Viruses in Cell Culture

        • Don’t forget green tea (epigallocatechin-gallate (EGCG)) as a zinc ionophore.

        • anyone taking statins should be on q10 as well
          wonder how many of the comorbidity ones were on statins and no q10?

          • David: I respect you and agree with most of your sentiment. I also enjoy your posts about the sun. They make me think. I like them a lot.

            We can for much less drama protect old people with vit D and the Zn quercetin, with a little green tea extract contains ECGC and is beneficial beyond being an ionophore and is part of my regimen anyway.

            Suggest not force, Quarantine on old and compromised people. Let the rest of society get on with life, and recommend what we frigging know about ionophore and Zn, etc and note that Vitamin D is on the other side of the equation as it bolsters immunity. Take D with Ca/Mg/Zn to get other benefits. Eat juiced green and red powders… thrive and get on with it.

            Doing this would be truly altruistic, and the haters would object, but so what right?

          • Thanks Mario, that was very useful. One of the graphs he showed indicates that quercetin is about half as powerful as clioquinol as a zinc ionophore and two thirds that of EGCG. But EGCG is toxic at high doses. From memory the EU daily dose limit is about 800 mg.

          • I saw this a few months ago at Costco and have been taking it since. It has extra stuff in it, so I take it only in the morning with my cocktail of 3 powders for breakfast. I add a teaspoon of 5 grams of pure glutamine too.


          • A doctor friend of mine on the virus:

            “At the end of the day, society is expending a ridiculous amount of resources on a covid that (although highly infectious) has a fatality of approximately 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10,000 in the general population. Yes, it kills the elderly and debilitated to a much greater degree but so what? If the government of the world are so desperate to keep people alive they’d be directing their efforts at diabetes, hypertension, cancer and chronic lung disease. They could reduce deaths (that kill at 100 times the rate of coronavirus) at a stroke of a pen by outlawing tobacco and alcohol but tobacco and alcohol users might vote bastard left wing politicians out.

            My view? To hell with all these fancy protocols for coronavirus. It’s part of life and will be for the foreseeable future. If it’s that important, isolate the vulnerable, observe hand and general hygiene, give cheap medication only (plaquenil and the like) and leave it at that. An asthmatic is at serious risk when they get ‘flu.

            Why aren’t we panicking and instituting lockdowns every year over asthmatics?
            Because it’s not politically worth it.

            I’m sick to the back teeth of the money we spend on 90 year olds. We see 100 times the number of fatalities for young people (or fetuses) who have no voice and get get disregarded.

            Old people have had their lives. They’re now costing more resources in the last 2 years of their lives than they ever paid into society. This can’t go on. How much are we going to let these parasites drag society down?

            Put every left wing politician in front of a firing squad. That’s an immediate way to improve things. (and tell the manufacturers of remdesivir to go do something to themselves).”

          • Quercetin has quite reasonable IC50 numbers against a range of cancers. For example 10.9 micrograms/ml against the prostate cancer cell line PC-3 in Table 2 on page 823 of “Anticancer and apoptosis‑inducing effects of quercetin in vitro and in vivo” by Hashemzaei et al of 2017. And pumping zinc into prostatic cancer could trigger apoptosis. See the paper “Evidence that Human Prostate Cancer is a ZIP1-Deficient Malignancy that could be Effectively Treated with a Zinc Ionophore (Clioquinol) Approach”. So one result of this pandemic could be an inadvertent lower rate of prostate cancer.

          • My friend in his late 60’s is going through 3 round of Chemo and I sent him the medical articles on it’s effect in enhancing the chemo’s effect on cancer while mitigating the effect on non cancer cells. It’s frigging magic… and of course there is no magic so don’t correct me on that 😉

            Anyway-he asked his doctor and the doctor said, “It’s OK I use it for allergies” The point is, my friend was not going to take it, but when I told him I would send it to him if he promised to take it, his text came back in microseconds, (OK it was like 5 seconds).

            Anyway- this Covid thing forced my research into the medical sites to read what we in fact know about so many things. WUWT posts pointed me in directions too. So I generally don’t prescribe life of death information generally, but I am sticking my neck out and pushing HARD because as Trump says, “What do you have to lose?” There is almost no downside and tons of upside in doing what I have recommended. Even with D the right way is to spend a ton on serum tests, so I split the numbers and guess that 6000IU a day is plenty safe and will push me in the direction of safety with almost no chance of build up or toxic effects…

            Best to you and thank you for the info! Keep it coming!

      • That is incredibly significant, as all the prior discussion on HCQ+Zinc was that it is most effective early after exposure, before the infection started to cause major problems. Must less effective or not at all if waiting until patient is in ICU.

    • The only reason this virus is as deadly as it is is because it is novel. Just like any novel virus, it’s fatality rate will significantly decrease as time goes on. And if we actually had a CDC that did its job and a director that wasn’t just another swamp creature, we’d be moving on with confidence right now knowing how to treat it early with zinc+hydroxychloroquine, aspirin, and prevent Covid-19 in the first place by taking a hard look at Western Societies rampant VDI (vitamin D deficiency) and solving it.


      Has Fauci even mentioned VDI once in public? The disease’s “strikingly divergent” course and symptoms finally make sense when you make the connection with CAC and VDI.

    • DG
      You complained, “Every time Trump mentions a treatment, the world rejects it out of hand.” As well they should! He has no medical expertise and anyone who who would give credence to his ‘thinking out loud,’ about what to try, probably believes what fortune tellers predict. If Trump knew anything about medicine, he wouldn’t need outside experts at his press conferences. He could speak on his own authority.

      • The only problem with your view is that Trump has so far been right on treatments, but only if you listen to what Trump said instead of what the mainstream media says he said.

        • Matthew
          Why shouldn’t I believe the medical advice of someone with a degree from Readers Digest? The MSM, bless their blue hearts, are largely reporting the results of studies being published in medical journals. I agree that the MSM is biased and doing everything they can to hurt Trump’s re-election chances. However, to be fair, sometimes people are their own worst enemies! Trump doesn’t know when he should keep his mouth shut.

          • That is why he was elected Clyde. He is not a politician and it drives the political class crazy 😉

            Trump was certainly right about China and how they are circling the wagons.

          • Derg
            Trump was elected for his political and economic views, not his medical knowledge. Then, there are some who feel that he was elected because so many voted against HRC.

      • I hardly know how to answer this comment!

        Does anyone think that leaders are chosen in the Western World because they are all multi-skilled geniuses? Trump has recently briefed the press on Covid, Transport, Foreign Policy, Defence, the Economy and Telecommunications. Do you think that he is an economist, a diplomat, a transport guru and a medical specialist all in one? As well as a military man and a comms wizard? Of course not. He gets briefed by specialists in all these fields.

        The reason that he mentioned HCQ was not that he had been doing extensive work on medical research. It was because someone had briefed him that some good results had been obtained in France. He was talking, initially, about Gautret’s study.

        What i was complaining about was that if the Washington Post had first broken the story that this drug was showing some benefit, the press would be howling for vast amounts to be manufactured before any other clinical trials reported. But if Trump announces it, they try their hardest to talk the drug down and suppress any further investigation….

      • You’re assuming that he’s simply speaking off-the-cuff. He’s not, he gets his information from experts, just perhaps not the ones that others recognize. For instance, remember the “UV inside” statement?
        Perhaps he just read the press release.

      • Clyde
        He has no medical expertise and anyone who who would give credence to his ‘thinking out loud,’ about what to try, probably believes what fortune tellers predict.

        It isn’t like Trump started thumbing through the physician desk reference (PDR) and stopped on a page for HCQ and said, hey maybe at the next press conference I’ll mention that drug. He has access to information that I’m sure is even greater than Dr. Fauci and I believe he heard reports from overseas that there was some success when using that drug. And from what I’ve heard that drug in combination with other drugs has been showing some effectiveness.

      • Clyde, the issue is that instead of simply discounting what Trump says and continuing with business as usual*, the MSM and (other) leftists actively seek to discredit anything that Trumps says. So if Trump happens to be correct on something (or even not yet shown to be wrong), whatever he has stated is blasted as being patently wrong simply because it was stated by Trump

        In the case of hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin, Trump said that it COULD be a game changer which has been taken as him saying that it IS a game changer so that he MUST be wrong and that the treatment CANNOT be effective (and is possibly harmful). Yes, the statement by Trump was worded in his usual, overly hopeful, self congratulatory and bombastic manner but that doesn’t ‘mean that the treatment should be automatically discarded as worthless and it definitely should not result in producing studies designed to refute its potential efficacy.

        *On second thought, actively seek to discredit anything that Trumps says IS business as usual for the MSM and (other) leftists

        • Analitik
          Interestingly, today, during the Ohio governor’s (nearly) daily press conference, a reporter specifically asked Dr. Atkins about using HCQ. She responded like a politician, not answering his question directly, only talking about remdesivir. It sounded like a denial of the efficacy of HCQ without actually coming out and saying so. Basically, she said that state was going to be using remdesivir.

          • Lifetime politicians can’t help themselves from acting as such.
            Trump comes across in a different (sometimes better, sometimes worse) manner since that is not his background

    • “Every time Trump mentions a treatment, the world rejects it out of hand.”

      I know it seems like it sometimes, but the leftwing media is not the whole world. They just presume to speak for the whold world.

  5. I guess what bothers me the most is the lack of quantitative criteria for planning for the future of (at least Western) civilization.

    FIRST, the Wu Flu can be bad, especially for people who apparently do not have agile-enough immune challenge-response systems to fight off Coronavirus “fast enough” early in the infection establishment phase. Virus gets the upper hand, and a lagging immune system becomes unable to thwart replication. VERY bad results, in that case.

    But… the Wu Flu also can be something of a lamb, in most cases. A really bad seasonal head cold, for most victims. Coughing like crazy, fevers, chills, stomach upset. Evil, but not particularly deadly.

    SECOND, early on we were lead to believe that ‘self isolation’ would be a relatively short term prospect, and in particular, it was advocated, pitched and implemented as temporary policy, to give the medical infectious disease response institutions, time to respond adequately. Without beocming swamped with too many incoming cases.

    THIRD, it was poorly communicated (alas, because it is complicated!), but the notion of herd immunity was to be counted on as ameliorative, in the event that a higher-tech immunization or really-effective theraputic treatment regimin didn’t materialize.

    FOURTH, at least here in the US, the States and Federal arms of government have been working seemingly toward a common goal, but just as vexingly, also contrary to each other in scope, specifics, promise-made-and-not-kept, and so on.

    It is that last bit that has me most riled, I have to admit. Being fair, I know full well that a homogeneous ‘wall ‘or ‘front’, uniform nationwide, is the antithesis of what is needed to address run-away-pandemic coronavirus. Why? Because one-size-fits-all uniformity denies that one-size-does-NOT-fit-all in reality. Having a panoply of different policies, public restrictions, measures and enforcement protocols is also a 50 state, or 2,000 county test-tube of multivariate public experimentation, to find the best rational path, given NO immunization and WEAK hospitalization effectiveness.

    For instance, I find it maddening to countenance “opening restaurants in a limited sort of way” when the very same adults are being restricted from returning to work-at-the-office-or-factory. What, face coverings that can NOT be required relistically at a restaurant are … OK … but covered faces at offices and factories are not? Puhleeze. Don’t insult my intelligence.

    Or similarly, how about cancelling our youth’s school year(s), yet failing to recognize that in 99% of the neighborhoods out there, kids are playing freely “on the streets” even though the public parks remain officially closed. I live in a clement California coast-hugging town (Hayward), and veritable ARMIES of kids-on-bicycles are roaming the streets, 7 days a week. Looks just like the childhood I remember, growing up here. Before Internet and 500 channel TV.

    No masks, they.
    No gloves.
    No apparent ‘social distancing’.

    So… wait. What? In the context of kids-at-school? But not in the street?

    This is what I am railing about, fellow reader. I’m at odds with the lack of CRISP CRITERIA that will define who and when personal “attendance freedom” is reestablished. Attendance of events. Attendance to school, attendance to neighbor’s barbeques, to cinemas and theatres, to restaurants, diners, dives and bars. To clothing stores, malls, racetracks, casinos. To all the shuttered businesses that are not considered “essential” in this era of wanton government overreach.

    Let’s face it, goats: we have put flimsy tin stars on hundreds of thousands of otherwise ineffective-but-harmless government apparatchiks; we have given them extra-judicial, extra-legislative, extra-enforcement powers, to set hard-nosed policy to shutter whatever businesses, institutions, venues, events and social gathering places they FEEL LIKE based on NON-CRISP mitigative and prevention criteria.


    And it is not good for society’s remarkably un-interfered operation.

    The consequences are many; milk-and-produce being thrown out, meat supplies dwindling, shelves at stores looking like Soviet Era masterpieces of unmet-need-and-government-imcompetent-supply. This is awfully silly, don’t you think?

    I do.
    And awfully dangerous.

    Time for CRISP, CLEAR, QUANTITATIVE CRITERIA to define how fast, how soon, and how staged will be the re-opening of open commerce; it is also time to empower the citizen, the individual, to make GOOD CHOICES of their own, given the fear-of-the-virus now firmly hooked into her brains.

    We’re not a dumb-and-stupid lot, it turns out. People are pretty good at responding to adversity presenting on their doorstoop. So, let us accept the conservatıve view: individual responsibility is perhaps the most effective agent guarding society against “the war” coming to its shores. Not nanny-state liberalism. Where the fundament precept is, “government is WAY smarter than the individual, and WE will legislate proper behavior, whether you like it or not!!!”

    ⋅-⋅-⋅ Just saying, ⋅-⋅-⋅
    ⋅-=≡ GoatGuy ✓ ≡=-⋅

    • Well put Goat guy.

      Unfortunately, as we stand 2 decades into the 21st Century, individual responsibility is severely hampered by Public School Nanny-State Liberalism. Put another way logic and reasoning has been replaced by Borg Drone indoctrination.

      Maybe the reopening of Public Schools should be the last item on the to do list of that CRISP, CLEAR, QUANTITATIVE CRITERIA, while we devise a plan to turn EDUCATION over to competent citizens unencumbered by the very same bureaucrats who have placed us in this never ending lockdown to begin with. This is a much bigger problem for the future of this once great nation than the Wuflu.

    • Well done!

      The news media has been doing us a huge disservice by not putting things in perspective with COVID-19. The media by and large is in lockstep with the mini-tyrants who are imposing draconian, non-sensical rules on the citizens over whom they suddenly have power.

      I just read an article on MSN News (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/healthcare/counties-in-every-state-where-covid-19-is-growing-the-fastest-right-now/ss-BB13OB7s?ocid=spartandhp) with a catchy title about Counties with the highest new cases of COVID-19. Here is one sentence from the article which highlights the author’s theme: “The vast majority of counties that had confirmed COVID-19 cases seven days ago have far more cases today.” He attributes the high rate of increased cases to the lack of social distancing.

      The author, Evan Comen, seems to have missed the point that a major reason why the case counts are increasing in many states is that these states have a high rate of testing. These states are finding many people who are asymptomatic or through serology testing have anti-bodies. The data in the article shows that many states with high testing rates also have high increases in cases. In the author’s mind, the problem is social distancing, thus he looked for no alternate hypothesis beyond his lack of social distancing is the cause for the increased cases.

  6. Small viral exposure infections appear to result in mild infections and subsequently some level of immunity (higher immunity than before the infection you survived). “Free” inoculations.

    Going to work with “distancing” will likely provide inoculation to the masses….like Sweden. Sweden is a month from herd immunity BECAUSE they didn’t close down commerce. They did mess up nursing home protection so they had more fatalities than necessary, but Sweden still has lower per capita fatalities than half the countries in Europe.

    The rest of Europe will continue to see fatalities for months on end, while Sweden will only see “baseline” infections (like with H1N1) after July.

    Georgia will be critical to watch…so far, case #’s are falling fast…but should rise some (unless they nail down the nursing home problem).

    • Similar wonderment if West Coast strain conferred some immunity to deadlier strains. Is that being studied?

      Sweden has a death to case rate between Spain and Italy, all higher than NY. Maybe they are still at low levels of societal exposure with most death stretched out way into the future. Not ordering lockdowns doesn’t mean people don’t adopt them.

      • Zack,
        Thankfully, all the mutations are from a single strain. A new strain could be far worse or far less invasive.

        Your point is interesting, if exposure to a mutation which presents less mortality (severe respiratory failure) and also prevents reinfection …

        Phylogenetic Tree of Novel Coronavirus (hCoV-19) Covid-19

        Real-time tracking of pathogen evolution

      • Free choice. No problem with that. CFR is a useless number dependent on how many tests you do (more tests lower CFR) and how you classify cause of death (based on tests or guesses that get you paid more money for a dx)

      • Sweden’s death rate, last I looked, was far higher then the countries you mentioned. But that was based I’m death to cured. Sweden’s cured rate is very low so it will take time to know their final case fatality rate.

  7. I’m old enough to remember going to the local school gym and getting the smallpox vaccination complete with the shoulder scar Rud mentioned. I also got the polio vaccine at the same gym. These two vaccines wiped out both diseases.

    I’m sorry but I don’t get the anti-vaccine movement. Vaccines have saved tens of millions of people over the past 70 years. Normally I would say if you don’t want a vaccine don’t get it, but leaving yourself open to infection and subsequent transmission to others is a threat to the community at large.

    As far a Wuhan goes, how it kills is fast becoming understood and the more important thing at this stage is coming up with therapeutic treatments for those destined for the ICU before they have to be admitted to the ICU. Vitamin D levels along with HCQ/Zn results show these work if administered early. Hopefully others will come along soon.

    • Polio is making a comeback, due to anti-vaxxers and immigration from less vaccinated countries. My dad caught it in Puerto Rico after the war.

      • At the beginning of May 2020 the only wild Polio cases notified this year are 43 in Pakistan and 11 in Afghanistan, all in a small area on the Afghan / Pakistan border. All other countries, I say again all other coutries are officially Polio free in that they have not had one case of wild Polio in the last three years.

        • I stand corrected. I was relying upon my experience in Afghanistan in 2005, when it was spreading in Pakistani refugee camps (even before the earthquake), and where there was religious opposition to vaccination. If it’s now restricted to the tribal areas, that’s great.

          I see that last year, there were more cases from the vaccine than caught in the wild.

          • You’re wrong more often than you will ever admit.

            Also, enjoy your Al-Hydroxide vaccine adjuvants. I, prefer not to have neurological damage mistaken for autism/Alzheimer’s.

            “Herp derp you’re just an anti-vaxxer”.

      • Mr. Tillman,

        What do you make of the United States experience in 1976 swine flu outbreak where the vaccine had to be discontinued because of adverse affects?

        And, interestingly enough, the disease, swine flu, never did break out.

        But not because of the vaccine, as it was administered to only 25% of the populace before it was discontinued.

        It seems you are comfortable with group-think positions.

        Does that lead to greater understanding or less understanding?

        • When a vaccine is hurried, the risk of bad batches increases.

          The fact that vaccines have saved countless lives isn’t an example of group-think, but of looking at the evidence.

          Before the diphtheria vaccine, the disease ravaged the world, rich and poor alike. My dad got polio, but my generation was largely spared, thanks to the vaccine.

      • Wrong. 7/10 cases of polio are vaccine originated. They still use the “live” vaccine in the third world despite knowing this. Stop using the “live” version!

        “All the current vaccine-derived polio cases have been sparked by a Type 2 virus contained in the vaccine. Type 2 wild virus was eliminated years ago.”


        Dr Salk himself lamented the fact that in the 1980’s the ONLY cause of polio in the western world was the vaccine because they were still using the “live” one instead of the dead one.


    • “I’m sorry but I don’t get the anti-vaccine movement. ”

      When I was getting vaccinated as a kid, people trusted the government.

      Fewer and fewer people trust the government any more, because it’s clearly not trustworthy. And when you have people like Bill Gates talking about overpopulation and then pushing mandatory vaccination for the Chinese Sniffles, no-one in their right mind wants what he’s pushing.

    • I agree on MRR, but holy Hanna do I get sick from the flu vaccine…I will take my chances

      • The virus in the flu vaccine is dead so you are not getting sick from it but from the adjuvants which are causing an autoimmune over response. Typical symptoms are weak muscles (wet noodle feeling) and aching joints.

        Vitamin D3 is at least as effective at preventing the flu and no side effects. IMHO using a vaccine for seasonal influenza is the totally wrong tool for the job. It mutates too quickly and easily.

      • I can see your point on that. I’ve never had any symptom from any vaccine other than a sore shoulder for a day from one tetanus shot. But then I can sleep like a baby after drinking two cups of strong coffee. Alcohol on the other hand makes me terribly sick if I drink even half a lite beer. Funny how we are all constructed differently.

  8. There are widely used avian coronavirus vaccines with good efficacy against the respiratory and systemic (viremic) forms of the infection. Used for decades … Infectious Bronchitis virus. Some difference in strain based protection due to the mutation described above … use two different vaccine strains to get broad and effective protection. Bovine coronavirus is presents as diarrhea/more enteric, but vaccine given intranasally does reduce clinical signs. Swine vaccines against PED can work but are too expensive to be economically viable. NO VACCINE WILL PREVENT INFECTION … enough dose, and you will get infected, even if recovered from a virulent field virus infection. Comments my own, not my employer (who makes IB vaccines).

  9. I don’t think we have a single coronavirus vaccine of any kind. Does anyone know different?

    • I’m a retired veterinarian that worked mostly in the dairy world. There are enteric coronavirus vaccines for calves (and dogs) that have moderate efficacy at preventing or reducing the severity of diarrhea. I have a recollection that some work in the 80-90’s on respiratory coronavirus vaccines for calves was unsuccessful but a quick search came up empty. The only respiratory coronavirus vaccines that I am aware of are for IB in poultry as mentioned in the comment just above. Even for IB I don’t believe any of the “modern tech” vaccines are in commercial use although very actively researched as I’m sure the market is billions of doses/year.

      Personal opinion is that it is naive to expect a successful vaccine will be available within a reasonable timeframe and that we need to provide protection and support for vulnerable populations and let everyone else get on with life otherwise we are going to crash the world economy and kill millions.

      • my “other half” is a vet he agrees the enteric for canine use is of moderate benefit but as the disease is so fast n nasty otherwise he will use the vaccine for what it might…do.

        likeso many its now “bundled” into a multivax and personally I am dubious they get good results over single dose versions of anything. smarter vax researchers are saying dont mix the loads as they interfere with a strong response
        ie for sure the makers of the 23pnumovax state NOT to give it within a month of the zostervax.

        and i take issue with Rus statement that gut health has no effect on brain function
        what wakefield said was the new combo MMR did effects kids gut flora.
        many resrearchers are now looking at gut biota and alzheimers cancers and all sorts of issues inc allergies etc
        the infos out there and not that hard to find

  10. The “Swine Flu” vaccine of 1976 turned out badly:

    “In 1976, an outbreak of the swine flu, influenza A virus subtype H1N1 at Fort Dix, New Jersey caused one death, hospitalized 13, and led to a mass immunization program. After the program began, the vaccine was associated with an increase in reports of Guillain-Barré Syndrome, which can cause paralysis, respiratory arrest, and death. The immunization program was ended after approximately 25% of the population of the United States had been administered the vaccine.” — Wikipedia, 1976 swine flu outbreak

    Let’s remember history.

    A rush to a vaccine could be a rush to a big problem.

    • Exactly. The anti-anti-vaccers are worse than the anti-vaccers themselves. At least the anti-vaccers are not trying to tell people what to do with their own lives.

      • exactly
        but to tell people to READ the full vaccine info on ingredints then read the trials data
        seems to get instant idiocy responses of antvaxxer

        Im NOT totally against vaccines but having had issues Im damned careful
        some of the supposed good results are pisspoor in truth
        follow up of more than 30 days is not common either and it should be.

        as an “oldfart” who had mumps measles chickenpox etc along with hundreds of others I went to school with
        no one freaked at it being more than inconvenient, took a bitof care re not scratching and beingmindfulof bright lights n eyes no reading etc with one of em? c pox?
        and no one ever died or left school mysteriously.
        if I had kids now..theyd not be getting the 50 or so recommended viral loads theyd get at most 1 of each after they were 8 if theyd not got whatever beforehand
        my pups get a 3mth old vax for the 3in1 and a topup for parvo as its a short lived vax,
        and approx 5yrly topup on the 3in1

    • Well said.
      I’m no antivaxxer, not at all but I’m always skeptical. I won’t be in the first row to test a new ‘Windows 3.0’ vaccine.

  11. “No return to normal until we get an effective vaccine”. Definitely, for a Black Death, killing over half of the population. For Covid-19 it is a question of precautionary principle. If you believe in it, as Dr. Fauci probably does, then he is right. We should create a big ghetto for believers, say the Long Island, and let them restrict movement in and out. The rest of us, willing to live with a small chance of getting an incurable disease with a maybe 0.5% mortality, can return to normal – slowly – starting today.

    Dr Fauci neglected to mention another approach – a treatment. Clearly his beliefs do not include a hydroxychloroquine, or whatever tomorrow may bring.

  12. About 25 years ago I got chicken pox when I was in my early 40’s. I was prescribed something that I think blocked the virus from replicating. So, while I had the rash, fever, aches, and all, symptoms did not last as long and may not have been as severe as without the drug.

    Has anyone heard of similar pursuits against this Covid virus? Combined with a test showing results quickly, a drug that prevents the severe symptoms from developing goes a long way to making this virus just another thing to put up with in life.

    • Possibly Acyclovir which if given within 72 hours of symptoms of chicken pox or shingles reduces the severity of the infection.
      Tetanus covers for life once you’ve had 5 doses of the vaccine, if you have a tetanus prone wound (typically involving soil or manure) then a booster will be given. (NICE guidelines)

    • As an aside, my wife caught shingles while in hospital 8 years ago and was given best known treatment. The rash and itch departed as normal, but the left side of her face was left with very painful, unrelenting, untreatable nerve pain that has just about wrecked her remaining life.
      The message – take the vaccine for shingles and hope like hell you avoid nerve damage. It is terrible. Geoff S

      • geoff you dont “catch ” shingles
        the stress of whatever she was in hosp for prob brought it on.
        she would have had chickenpox as a kid?
        or had the shingles vaccine they pushed so hard when they created one?
        that was giving kids who hadnt HAD chickenpox shingles! and some of the older adults as well.
        has she tried the capsaicin cream?
        and there are other products people say do work
        I had a friend with internal shingles, brought on by surgery, in so much pain and docs dissed it as mental health issues
        eventually they agreed, after being pushed hard to biopsy his bladder, but faffed around uselessly, seemingly incompetant to use the meds that were available
        he suicided aged 40

  13. Thank you for your comments, again, Rud. My view of the goings on in the USA is that the different positions of Trump and Fauci are leading them to different comments. Trump must search for a balance between guarding people from the somewhat deadly virus and, at the same time, insure sufficient economic strength to fund both the research efforts and to support the people as they suffer from secondary effects of quarantine. Fauci is focused only on the epidimeological aspect of an aggressive virus (his potential conflicts of interest notwithstanding). The Democrats support Fauci without any consideration of the balanced view, and taking advantage of the lurch toward socialism that goes with more government control and dependency, whereas Republicans push against virus safety protocols to return to work and the self-sufficiency that goes with it. I and my wife have an established protocol for getting outside of the house, and, given the low infection rate of where we live (1 per 40,000 residents) we are almost 100% safe, but bored and frustrated. Our dogs are stressed because of the negative change in our daily activities, and their feelings are neither Democrat or Republican, so their stress is a marker for the accumulating effects of prolonged quarantine. The USA must get re-opening underway, but following reasonable protocols. Stay sane and safe.

    • Fauci is focused only on the epidimeological aspect of an aggressive virus
      This, I think is an all-to-common take on things. We accept that an expert is very tightly focused on their specialty, which is a good thing. Then we assume that such a focused person does not see the larger picture, and thus their recommendations are excessively tilted to their point of view.

      I have to disagree. As a scientist, I know my specialty very well, as I should. I also live in the real world. I have to put gas in my car, and pay bills. I have neighbors who work and get laid off. I shop for food, and hand tools, and gardening supplies. I have retirement investments so I keep an eye on Wall St. *and* Washington DC. This is what is known as “life”.

      I submit for your approval:
      If someone makes highly one-sided recommendations consistently, without taking into account larger considerations, it is not because they are in an “information silo”, and can not see out.
      It is because they have an agenda. (They may understand that you might not like their agenda.)

      • I submit for your approval:
        If someone makes highly one-sided recommendations consistently, without taking into account larger considerations, it is not because they are in an “information silo”, and can not see out.
        It is because they have an agenda. (They may understand that you might not like their agenda.)

        Nicely put!

  14. Instead of an outright vaccine, shouldn’t we also consider the approach of prophylactic medicines . . . you know, along the lines of HCQ?

    There seem to be some reliable reports that populations that have been taking HCQ log-term for treatment/control of lupus and rheumatoid arthritis have very low susceptibility to COVID-infection.

  15. Another vaccine candidate also in phase 1 trials is Inovio’s INO-4800. It’s a DNA vaccine, not RNA. Evidently DNA vaccines don’t need refrigeration.

    My guess is Covid-19 will keep mutating so a vaccine is not possible. Reportedly, the strains in WA state and NY state are different. The cold/rhinovirus is a corona virus. Keeps mutating and we keep getting it. Covid-19 could become Covid-## and stick around for a long time.

  16. According to Professor Carl Heneghan of Oxford’s Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine, this virus doesn’t even qualify as an epidemic in the UK. The official definition of an epidemic is a disease that infects 40 in 10,000 people. The infection rate for COVID-19 is between 4 and 24 in 10,000. And while I haven’t seen a comparable chart for the USA, I’d be surprised if the infection rate was much higher.

    The longer this is drawn out, the more I suspect that this lockdown has nothing to do with a virus.

  17. Rud,

    Is there any Quality Assurance process is in place for testing, diagnosing, attribution, and reporting of COVID-related stuff?


  18. “the digestive tract has little to do with brain function.”

    And this was about the point my eyes glazed over.

    • It’s unfortunate that they will simply ignore any good news or advice and 99% of the media will play their part by not covering it or propagandize it if the information becomes too widespread through alternate means.

  19. Rud. Interesting and I’m sure correct. I’ve made a promise to myself to limit my attempts at amateur serology as there seem to be far more people out there playing at expertise on vaccines than any one planet needs. But I would point out that a primitive, but apparently largely effective form of smallpox vaccination called variolation was in use here and there in the 18th century before Jenner developed an effective vaccine. George Washington eventually had the entire Continental Army variolated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation

    And as long as I’m citing Wikipedia, let me suggest that folks read the lengthy Wikipedia article on the Spanish Flu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu Several takeaways:

    No one actually knows how many folks were infected. Or how many died. Sound familiar?

    There were two waves of Spanish Flu infection. The first was relatively mild. The second was far more lethal. This is said to be atypical. Conventional wisdom is that epidemic agents become less lethal over time. But it’s worth remembering that increased lethality can, and has, happened.

    Some of the fatalities may have been due to the notion that megadoses of Asprin would cure the disease. Asprin is truly wonderful stuff and has surely saved untold lives over the years. But, if you try really hard, you can kill yourself with it. Just a caution for those who embrace miracle cures for Covid-19. Might be a good idea to read up on whatever potion you’re about to swill and get the dosage, side-effects, and contraindications down before you find out the hard way that you’re doing it wrong.

    • Yes, variolation had been practiced in England and Western Europe since 1721, brought from the East by travel writer Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, wife of the British ambassador to the Porte, and embassy physician Charles Maitland. She learned of the procedure from Greek women in the Ottoman Empire. Maitland inoculated her son.

      England was suffering a smallpox outbreak when Lady Mary returned. She persuaded Caroline, Princess of Wales, to inoculate her two eldest daughters (and possibly son Frederick, future father of George III), after safety tests on six condemned prisoners (set free) and six orphan children.

      The practice spread, but fell into disrepute due to unskilled practitioners and associated deaths and epidemics. In the 1760s, a medical family in England developed safer, less costly and painful methods, which they franchised at home and abroad. The new technique revived interest in the procedure.

      Washington’s variolation of the Continental army gave us a big manpower advantage over the Redcoats and German mercenaries.

        • Yup. That’s why it’s called variolation, from the Latin for smallpox.

          Vaccination derives from the Latin for cow.

  20. There is also a vaccine against the avian bronchitis coronavirus.

    Jenner thought that “the grease”, a bacterial infection of horses’ heels, and swine pox were the same disease as cowpox and smallpox. He inoculated his son with swine pox, but it didn’t protect him against smallpox. Nevertheless, when the Gloucester cow Blossom and milkmaid Sarah Nelmes presented him with the opportunity to vaccinate his gardener’s son James Phipps, he took it.

    At about James’ age, Jenner had endured a traumatic variolation, before the technique was refined.

    IMO the lab best positioned to produce a WuWHOFlu vaccine is Oxford’s Jenner Institute. Teams there have a head start thanks to work on SARS and MERS.

    Besides smallpox, the only other eradicated virus is rinderpest, the ruminant ancestor of human measles.

  21. It won’t take until several years to find out if the vaccine will cause chronic inflammation.
    Drugs that inhibit inflammatory processes in the body are much safer, because their action is more known.

  22. Vaccination with plasma from people who have antibodies and are healthy would be the most safe. A single dose of 200 ml plasma is sufficient.

    • I’ve read where one Wuhan virus patient who has gotten over the disease and has antibodies can supply antibodies to one or two other adults at a time.

      How many children could be innoculated with one person’s antibodies? Would there be any particular problem with using it on children?

      • At the blood donation station, 600 ml of plasma is donated (without whole blood). A healthy person can donate plasma every two weeks.
        One person can provide plasma for three people with the same blood group.
        I do not know the dose for a child, but it must be correspondingly smaller.

  23. Rud Istvan, thank you for this and other essays in this series.

    About this: Short medical synopsis: the digestive tract has little to do with brain function.

    You ought to research that a little deeper. Or just drop the whole sentence.

  24. Doesn’t MIGAL have a vaccine for poultry corona viruses ?

    And if we don’t chicken out …


    • I don’t get flu vaccines, but they are why flu deaths were low between the 1976 and 2017 seasons, then low again in 2018-19 and this just passed. Of course this season was also low because many who might have died of flu instead succumbed to coronavirus.

      • All the evidence in the world shows that flu vaccines are effective if geven for the right strain. Viral evolution makes it hard to guess right, however.

        Both Influenza A (infecting birds and mammals) and B (just humans and seals) viruses mutate by antigenic drift and reassortment with reckless abandon.

        • There is “evidence” the flu vaccine protects against the common flu. How is that possible? It isn’t. These have nothing in common. Being vaccinated is a predictor of not getting the flu, period.

          You felt for that con. We are not surprised.

          • We? Hope you don’t have a tapeworm. Or multiple personalities.

            Flu vaccines work on the strain for which they’re formulated.

            You could read up on test results.

          • Maybe you should provide that evidence that the flu vaccine sometimes work to authorities. Only you have seen it.

          • NG,

            Please read the trials conducted before flu vaccine was approved.

            Those who approved it read the same studies as I. You could too.

          • After decades of use, even the promoters of the flu vaccine admit they have zero evidence it works. Each year the same excuse, we have no time to do proper work.

          • CDC gives mixed results from 17% to 54% efficacy. Placebo is about 30% (IIRC) which is right in the middle. So, It guess it depends on what “it works” means. It probably has some effectiveness if the Flu that you are exposed to it one you’re vaccinated for. But it’s a numbers game, and there are downsides of the vaccine too, depending on what they are putting into your body.

            Knowing what I learned over the past few months, I am sticking to nutrients to make it difficult for viral replication and nutrients that bolster what god gave me. We should all be extremely happy to have learned about viruses and how they take hold, and what we can do to mitigate their menace in our bodies. I am overjoyed!

            I am not an anti vaxxer, I just choose not to put things into my body that give it stress I don’t need… plus the extra mercury is an issue too. Though they changed the name to a brand name thimerosal to hide the mercury issue, it’s still in there. My doctor told me they no longer use mercury, because there is a new thing they use called thimerosal. She did not know, until I educated her, that the active ingredient in thimerosal was mercury… Doh!

          • Mario,

            I’m pro-vax, but also don’t get flu shots, since their effectiveness depends on getting the right strain. The low overall effectiveness reflects so often not getting the right strain, not effectiveness when the vaccine is for the correct strain.

          • I think you make sense, and that is the thing. We always get last year’s strain at best, whereas South America gets the current strain. So, it’s always a guess, as we are getting a strain no more current than the length of time it takes to develop and scale it.

    • If they get despondent or discouraged about such low efficacies, let them know that they get an increased chance of GBS as a bonus with each jab.

  25. Rud, please do forgive me.
    not meaning to be mean but must do this…

    Since “respected” ex-perts like Dr. Fauci…

    there corrected… 🙂

    Could not resist it, for the best of me… kinda of your “fault”… 🙂

    In my understanding, Dr. Fauci is an expert academic gangsta… of the worst kind possible there.
    Sorry if we may happen to disagree in this one.


    • Just google pmc1200696. It will take you to the ncbi.nlm.nih archive containing the paper with that identifier. Or just google Jenner vaccination. The paper shows up in the first few links.

    • The article has errors. Some are trivial, as in misspelling “Montagu” and “Nelmes”. But importantly, it repeats as fact the milkmaid myth invented by Jenner’s friend and first biographer, Dr. John Barton. Young Jenner learned about the immunizing effect of cowpox from his boss Daniel Ludlow, who belonged to a medical society which met at Gloucestershire’s The Ship Inn.

      At a meeting in 1765, Ludlow heard from fellow member Dr. Fewster that his farmer patients who had previously caught cowpox didn’t get sick when he inoculated them. Ludlow imparted this information to his apprentice.

      Milkmaid patient Sarah Nelmes (not that spelling was standard in 1796) was however of course real. The hide of the Gloucester cow Blossom is held by Jenner’ med school alma mater in London and her horns by the Jenner Museum in Berkeley, Glos.

      Little is known of the later life of perhaps unwilling hero, human guinea pig James Phipps, son of Jenner’s gardener.

      The truth about the fake milkmaid’s tale was discovered Massachusetts-born Oxford historian Art Boylston, MD, descended from 1721 Boston variolator Dr. Zabdiel Boylston.

  26. “The antivaxxer canard that MMR vaccine causes autism goes back to a very small sample scientific scandal by a crooked British gastroenterologist”

    Zero evidence of fraud.

    OTOH we have a provax study by a FBI MOST WANTED felon and you have nothing to say in that.

    • Read my book. Several million £ worth of evidencd of fraud behind the withdrawn paper

      • What about the FBI MOST WANTED provax researcher?

        If ONE vaccine critic was crooked, so be it. Either way I don’t care; makes no diff what so ever.

        But I believe people have rights. Do you support kangourou courts?

        What about all the provax crooked/demented people, like those who write crap on the CDC website, that not even a 11 years old would believe?

        Why do you even mention the autism controversy? What causes autism?

        • From the resident Forbes provax shill Emily Willingham (who is to vaccines what Rachel Maddow is to the deep state):

          Based on this entry, Thorsen allegedly stole a lot of money. The money came from more than $11 million that the CDC granted to two Danish government agencies for research into autism and vaccines, cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and fetal alcohol exposure. Thorsen allegedly manufactured CDC invoices purportedly for work done under the grant at the CDC, then got the Danish government to pay those invoices from the CDC grant funds back to the CDC by way of an Atlanta bank account. But the account was allegedly Thorsen’s private account and not a CDC account.


          But Thorsen not being “first or senior author” on the provax study apparently makes the story irrelevant, or something. Cause we all know only “first or senior author” can commit fraud and can be accused by their co-authors when something fishy is found.

  27. Are we supposed to wait for a vaccine while being trapped in a lockdown ? Knowing that no vaccine has ever been successfull against any previous coronavirus ?

    I hope there is an alternative way to get rid of this virus :

    According to Johan Giesecke, from 98% to 99% of the Swedish population who is infected barely notice it or have mild symptoms.

    Thus, the best (and as for now, the only) way to get rid of this virus seems to get group immunity. As far as I know, apart in northern Italy, there have been no ICU shortage reported (and BTW, the strict lockdown did not solve this problem), neither in Sweden without lockdown.

    Actually, nobody knows what is the needed infected percentage to achieve gorup immunity for a given population. Some says 60%, others between 10% in rural areas to 30% in high density towns.

    In all the confined situations that have been studied (Diamond Princess, French and US aircraft carriers, homeless shelters in New York or in Boston, ship going to Antarctica, etc.) the percentage of infected people never exceeded 30 to 40%.

    Periodical randomized tests seem to be the right thing to do in order to estimate the group immunity percentage in a given area. This has to be done in each area (where population density and behavior are specific).

    Random tests in Stockholm showed a week ago that 25% of the population has been already infected. Hopefully, Sweden – at least Stockholm -will get out of this mess in a few weeks.

    It should be very interesting to know the percentages of people that have been infected in most of the areas in order to know where we are and how far we are from the end of the tunnel at a global scale. Without those data, we are actually completely blind with respect to this epidemic.

    My only hope is that most of the lockdowns were completely useless so that we did not delay group immunity.

    • “Are we supposed to wait for a vaccine while being trapped in a lockdown ? Knowing that no vaccine has ever been successfull against any previous coronavirus ?”

      I would say no, don’t wait. Hydroxychloroquine will set you free.

  28. Modena Therapeutics has got approval to go to phase 2 trails, for their mRNA ‘vaccine’.

    The mRNA approach has the potential to cut the time to develop a ‘vaccine’ and cut the time and cost to produce to manufacture the ‘vaccine’.

    “On May 6, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) completed its review of the Company’s Investigational New Drug (IND) application for mRNA-1273 allowing it to proceed to a Phase 2 study, which is expected to begin shortly.”

    If I understand the science, their mRNA virus like entity, infects human cells and gets the human cells to produce a “prefusion stabilized form of the covid-19’s Spike (S) protein and it is this replicate of the Spike protein that …

    … evokes a response from our immune system.


    About mRNA-1273
    mRNA-1273 is an mRNA vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 encoding for a prefusion stabilized form of the Spike (S) protein, which was selected by Moderna in collaboration with investigators from Vaccine Research Center (VRC) at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), a part of the NIH.

    The potential advantages of an mRNA approach to prophylactic vaccines include the ability to combine multiple mRNAs into a single vaccine, rapid discovery to respond to emerging pandemic threats and manufacturing agility derived from the platform nature of mRNA vaccine design and production. Moderna has built a fully integrated manufacturing plant which enables the promise of the technology platform.

    • That vaccine is going to k!ll those vaccinees who go on to actually a real SARS-CoV-2 infection. The immune system in the lungs can’t easily be fooled with such approaches.

      But Modena will have litigation shielded by Congress. So they’ll be able to take the money and run-away Scot-free when people start dying because they got their vaccine and then got a much worse case of COVID-19.

      • This is another reason for avoiding CCP-19 vaccines. SARS vaccines had a nasty habit of killing the vaccinated animals when they were later infected with SARS.

        And that’s before you consider the research into vaccines to make people sterile.

      • Joe,

        Your comment “The immune system in the lungs can’t easily be fooled with such approaches.”

        The immune system will be trained to recognize the covid’s unique spike protein. So the immune system in the lungs will not be fooled

        I would assume you are lamenting the end of traditional vaccines. While science goes on and costs and effectiveness goes up. That is progress.

        • You simply do not understand a complex system that is our immune system and anatomical locations.

          Go ahead, you take the mRNA vaccine or the chemically-inactivated virus vaccine. See what happens then when you get the real CoV-2 infection. There are other immunologists who are making these same warnings about the real potential for immunopathology from these vaccine modalities.

          The makers will be selling it under immunity from liability litigation granted by Congress. They’ll take the money and run off scot-free.

          • With luck, Oxford’s vaccine will be approved first. Monkey trials were successful. Human trials have begun.

            AZN is already making the vaccine, so as to have 100 million doses ready by year-end. The company says they’ll sell it at cost as the pandemic lasts.

  29. Wuhan virus
    Do you mean A/Wuhan/359/95
    some other random virus attributed to china

  30. “Even finding a covid-19 vaccine won’t be enough to end the pandemic: If coronavirus persists, the volume of vaccine available in coming years is expected to fall far short of global demand” By Christopher Rowland, Carolyn Y. Johnson, and William Wan | May 11, 2020

    “If SARS-CoV-2 establishes itself as a stubborn, endemic virus akin to influenza, medical experts say, there almost certainly will not be enough vaccine for at least several years, even with the unprecedented effort to manufacture billions of doses. About 70 percent of the world’s population — or 5.6 billion people — will probably need to be inoculated to begin to establish herd immunity and slow its spread, scientists say.

    “Yet the nationalistic priorities of individual nations could thwart the strategic imperative to tamp down hot spots wherever they are on the planet — including poor countries that cannot afford the vaccine. The United States in particular could be left in the cold if vaccines developed here as part of a go-it-alone approach turn out to be less effective than those produced in China or Europe.”

    China and Europe are different cases. Whatever the Chinese do, they are liars. Any vaccine they come up with should not be distributed in the US until it goes through the full normal FDA process. Second, I do not believe that China is developing a vaccine. The demographic of the diseases’s primary victims is one that they are just as happy to see die because they do not have effective ways of providing income or health care to the elderly. Third, European pharmaceutical manufacturers all have major US operations, they cannot afford to slight the US. I think a couple of European pharmas moved their research operations to the US because lunatic environmental and animal rights regulations in Europe made research impossible there.

    * * *

    “The scenario public health experts fear most is a worldwide fight in which manufacturers sell only to the highest bidders, rich countries try to buy up the supplies, and nations where manufacturers are located hoard vaccines for their own citizens.

    “The model of countries thinking only of themselves is not going to work. Even if you’re living somewhere that’s somehow perfectly without any infections, your best efforts to fight the virus are going to fail unless you shut off all your borders and trade,” said Seth Berkley, CEO of Gavi, a public-private partnership that helps provide vaccines to developing countries. “This is a global problem that requires a global solution.”

    I, for one, have absolutely no concern. If we have to complete the border wall, that is a good thing in my eyes. When I was young and first went outside of the US, I was required to carry a yellow card proving that I had been vaccinated against small pox. If we have to do the same thing for Wuhan Flu, it is zero problem. The entire notion of global problems is triple distilled nonsense when discussing diseases. Diseases occur one person at a time where the victim is located.

    If you want an example look at polio. the vaccine was devised more that 60 years ago, is very safe, and is orally administered. Yet efforts to wipe out polio all over the globe have failed, because in certain locales which are not afflicted with the curse of whiteness and where the locals receive all of their information about the world from the learned hierophants of the best religion in world history have told them that the vaccine is the product of infidels who are trying sterilize them.

    * * *

    “In the United States, the federal government agency in charge of emergency vaccine development indicated it is prioritizing domestic concerns — an “America First” mentality that has shaped much of the Trump administration’s pandemic response.

    “Right now, we’re focused on the whole-of-America approach required to expedite the availability of vaccines,” Gary Disbrow, acting director of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), said in an emailed response to written questions from The Washington Post.”

    At least they understand the their first obligation is to the the taxpayers who fund them. I find their attitude commendable. if that is due to Trump, than it is a point in his favor.

    * * *

    “Another risk: The United States might not be well positioned if the best vaccines end up coming from other countries or international collaborations — such as a development and manufacturing cooperative that world leaders pledged billions toward this month at an online event the Trump administration skipped. A Trump administration official said this month that the United States supports such efforts despite skipping the pledge event.”

    Is this more like Paris CO2 pledges or NATO defense pledges? They are all utterly worthless. I am glad the US skipped that waste of electrons.

    * * *

    “Jeremy Konyndyk, a senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development who worked on the U.S. government’s response to international disasters in the Obama administration, said that “we need to lay the groundwork for global vaccine sharing now, before we know who is the winner.”

    ““It’s basically negotiated — there’s not a global framework or protocol, there’s not a preexisting framework about how to do this,” Konyndyk said. “What we don’t want is a situation of haves and have-nots, based on either who gets vaccine to work or who has the production capacity or who has the wealth.”

    What you mean we? White Man.

    As an American we have worked hard for our wealth and power. We have been exceedingly generous with them. And, the world, which should be grateful is, as a necessary law of human nature, resentful. The he11 with them.

    If we develop a vaccine, we get it first. The beneficiaries of Federal largess are obligated to do that. If somebody else develops it, we can license it and produce it for ourselves. Nothing we do deprives others of an opportunity to do the same thing. I am sure that America will be generous with its products, but it must be just before it is generous.

    * * *

    “Much of the international outrage during the H1N1 swine-flu pandemic 11 years ago centered on supply contracts Western governments secured with vaccine manufacturers. The United States, under President Obama, had contracts in 2009 that entitled it to 600 million doses, The Post reported at the time, a huge share of potential global supply.” . . .

    Like most international outrage this was confined to a small cadre of leftists. as far as I am concerned they can choke on their outrage.

    * * *

    • quote: “Zinc itself has antiviral properties and past research has suggested it may reduce the time people suffer from common colds.
      Rahimian believes that, when used to treat coronavirus patients, it is the zinc that does the heavy lifting and is the primary substance attacking the pathogen.
      Hydroxychloroquine, on the other hand, acts as an agent that transports the zinc into cells, increasing its efficacy, he suggested.
      ‘Zinc is an easily available, well-tolerated medicine to use with few side effects so if there is a possibility it might a benefit, that is appealing,’ Rahimian said. “

  31. Rud,

    Why not simply use a killed virus vaccine? It can’t have any more side effects than the original virus.

    Or take the existing virus and run it through another animal to produce a live, attenuated virus? This might give better immunity.

    Or, consider “variolation”. Inoculate people with a very small quantity of the west coast variant of the live virus. This would probably give the best immunity, with the most risk.

    These approaches all have proven track records. It seems like because we have all this DNA/RNA tech we feel compelled to use it. While ignoring a whole lot of past experience.

    The problem with the DNA/RNA technology is that it is a whole lot less predictable than working directly with the virus. We have already “accidentally” tested the virus on millions of people.

    • The tricky part is inactivating viral RNA without damaging the antigenic bits, such as the virion’s spike proteins.

    • No, the huge problem with inactivated-virus vaccines for deep lung pathogens is immunopathology. That is making the actual infection with the real virus then turns out much worse for the vaccinee.

      The RSV vaccine fiasco of the 1960’s taught us that. Immunopathology is basically going to throw an asthma attack on top of lung infection from a SARS-CoV-2 infection for many who get an inactivated virus vaccine. The lungs are immunologically unique anatomical location. The immune system cannot be overreactive in the lungs because we are constantly breathe-in crap, but we can’t have an immune response to everything. Thus getting a proper immune response that won’t induce immunopathology when the real virus strikes will require a live virus vaccine.

      The reason the annual influenza vaccine works at all is because we all have pre-existing immunity from past influenza infections, thus we have a developed T cell response to influenzas A and B. So the annual flu vaccine only tweaks a new B-cell response to provide new antibodies to the expected 3 flu strains circulating to go along with the memory T cell response we already have. The parts that T cells “see” don’t change like the surface parts that antibodies bind to that rapidly change season to season with flu strains.

  32. Interesting! But:-
    “There are at least two insurmountable potential Wuhan vaccine problems.”
    A contradictory sentence. More accurate would be:-
    “There are at least two potentially insurmountable Wuhan vaccine problems.”

  33. Is it possible that some people may have a natural immunity to ‘flu viri?
    To my best recollection, I have never had influenza and I’m now age 88. Worked in large offices with high people density.
    Typically, have had a 3 or 4 day cold every few years, and once as a young man, pneumonia- cured quickly with an antibiotic.

  34. According to Italian prof/researcher after number of thousands tests of Covid-19 infected:
    – if asymptomatic: no antibodies developed and no future immunity
    – if mild disease: ditto
    – if severely affected by disease: antibodies present and possible immunity but not guaranteed.

    • There is strong evidence that mild to moderate symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection does in fact result in an IgG response.
      A published study of 1,300 Corona virus patients in NYC showed this.

      IgG is a correlate of long-lasting immunity. IgG is a T-cell dependent process. And if you have T cell response, you will have a pool of memory T cells form to provide protection for years to decades.

      • “The same fluctuation held true for New York City, where the study found that 21.2% of respondents had COVID-19 antibodies on April 22. Five days later, that number went up to 24.7%. But the May 1 report found that 19.9% of New York City participants had the antibodies. What does it mean? The governor sees the infection rate drop as a good sign. “You don’t want to see that number go up,” he said.”
        I would expect that percentage would rise, or at least hold steady for long period of time. Cuomo’s comment makes no sense.

    • Above quotes are from the interview of Andrea Crisanti by the BBC news.
      Crisanti is an Italian professor of Microbiology at the University of Padua. He previously was professor of Molecular Parasitology at Imperial College London and a former director of the department of infectious diseases at the Italian institute of health -wikipedia.

      • Hi Agamemnon, perhaps Cassandra was telling the truth after all, but i have no idea, just quoting what prof Andrea Crisanti said to the BBC news channel.
        Either way, it may take longer than one May before science is finally settled on this one.

    • So how does that square with the places finding several percent of the population have antibodies? Did they all get severe cases and not notice?

  35. Is a vaccine against COVID-19 needed at all? People who are not in high risk groups might be able to self-immunize by getting a small dose of virus in a safe way – touching a door knob in a public place, then their noses or lips.

    If they get seriously sick, there is HCQ+AZ/Zn/etc.

    People in the high risk groups should stay away from the infection, or might possibly try preventative HCQ+Zn regimen.

    • Goldstein
      You recommended, “… touching a door knob in a public place, then their noses or lips.” The trouble is, one might also get an STD while they are at it! 🙂 I don’t know where else I could find such sensible medical advice as I do here.

    • Goldstein
      It just occurred to me that it might be faster to just lick the door knob.

  36. I wish you would not call the British pediatric gastroenterologist “crooked.” You are perpetuating another myth. He never claimed that a vaccine caused autism. He was extremely careful with good science.

    • Wrong. He did, in return for ~£750 from the his crocked Law firm. Read my book details.

  37. The mRNA vaccine, the DNA vaccine, and the chemically-inactivated virus approaches are going to kill people with immunopathology, that is if they get one of those vaccines, are naive for a live SARS-2 infection, and then some months later get the real SARS-CoV-2 infection deep in their lungs.

    Immunopathology means they are going to much worse off than if they hadn’t received one of those vaccine. Th2 eosinophilia in their airways will be the presentation at the same time their deep lungs are fighting the corona virus infection. Th2 eosinophilia is essentially sever asthma. That will be the immunopathology. That was exactly the lesson of the RSV vaccine fiasco in the 1960’s. ANd it’s going to get repeated with one of those vaccines.

    Probably 1/2 the field of human T cell immunologists are screaming that immunopathology message with those vaccine approaches. And the other half just sees $$ signs at being part of the effort to be the first to market with a licensed vaccine…. even if it kills people the next cold season when this COVID-19 roars back. They’ll take their money and run, and Congress will pass legislation protecting the vaccine industry from lawsuits from those deaths.

    There are two vaccine approaches being pursued right now that are likely to succeed. One is Merck’s live, attenuated VSV vaccine, similar to what is now being used for Ebola and very effective at immunizing against that deadly virus. The other is adenovirus (live, but replication deficient) vaccine being developed out of the NIAID(NIH)-Rocky Mountain Labs in Hamilton, MT.

    The one with the highest probability of eliciting a long-lasting immune response to SARS-CoV-2 is Merck’s VSV approach. But it’ll be patented. The Adenovirus/SARS-2 vaccine construct out of RML will likely be effective as well, but at a much lower price point for the billions of doses needed around the world.

  38. So many errors. First “the digestive tract has little to do with brain function” – Wrong

    Second “Some vaccinations last for a lifetime (smallpox).” – Wrong
    Of the last 3 people infected by the accidental lab release 2 had been vaccinated but it was 10+ years before. It does NOT provide lifetime immunity.

      • Steven Mosher
        May 13, 2020 at 6:31 pm

        A “Second brain.”
        Definitely a “brain”, with a full “neural” network within a cell and each and eeveeryy cell… go figure. 🙂


  39. We need to cut through the medical fog of war. We have a natural ‘cure’ for Covid virus fear.

    If we correct our population’s microbiological deficiencies, we can make them immune to covid.

    Our system has been hiding an unimageable important medical ‘breakthrough’ and an unimaginable scandal where a large portion of our population are deadly deficient in ‘Vitamin’ D and Zinc.

    Because there are three substances to optimize and the body needs all three things at higher levels to work, we have never discovered optimum body operation. We tested one thing at time and did not fund testing of the other two.

    Vitamin D deficient people are 19 times more likely to die from covid than the less vitamin D deficient people. And we know the elderly are deadly deficient in Vitamin D.

    The high supplement level ‘Vitamin’ D tests (4000 UI/day and above) found that a high percentage of the population is deficient in magnesium so they added magnesium to the with ‘Vitamin’ D cohort.

    This enable the human biological systems which the proto hormone ‘Vitamin’ D turned on to work. Magnesium is required for the body to work and Vitamin D is required to turn on the systems, this explains why the low level ‘Vitamin’ D supplement tests had failed to show, correcting the human ‘Vitamin’ D deficiency, cured most cancers and common diseases.

    In addition, we know non-vegetarians are severely magnesium deficient.

    And we know vegetarians are severely zinc deficient and the elderly are deadly deficient in Zinc.


    Zinc deficiency linked to immune system response, particularly in older adults

    “When you take away zinc, the cells that control inflammation appear to activate and respond differently; this causes the cells to promote more inflammation,”

    Of those 65 and older, closer to 40 percent do not consume enough zinc, Ho said. Older adults tend to eat fewer zinc-rich foods and their bodies do not appear to use or absorb zinc as well, making them highly susceptible to zinc deficiency.

    Download PDF – MDPI
    http://www.mdpi.com › pdf

    Nutrients 2015, 7, 8199-8226; doi:10.3390/nu7095388

    Magnesium in Prevention and Therapy

    Epidemiological studies in Europe and North America have shown that people consuming Western-type diets are low in magnesium content, i.e. <30%–50% of the RDA for magnesium. It is suggested that the dietary intakes of magnesium in the United States Nutrients 2015, 7 have been declining over the last 100 years from about 500 mg/day to 175–225 mg/day. This is likely a result of the increasing use of fertilizers and processed foods [5,9,22–24].

    The United States NHANES 2005–2006 survey reported that nearly one half of all American adults have an inadequate intake from food and water of magnesium and do not consume the estimated average requirements (EAR) (set at 255–350 mg depending on gender and age group) [27,28].

    A chronic magnesium deficiency (serum magnesium <0.75 mmol/L) is associated with an increased risk of numerous preclinical and clinical outcomes, including atherosclerosis, hypertension, cardiac arrhythmias, stroke, alterations in lipid metabolism, insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes mellitus, osteoporosis as well as depression and other neuropsychiatric disorders. Furthermore, magnesium deficiency may be at least one of the pathophysiological links that may help to explain the interactions between inflammation and oxidative stress with the aging process and many age-related diseases [5,7,11,22,27,29–34].

    • Magnesium oxide is not well absorbed and acts as a laxative. Magnesium citrate is better. Magnesium can be absorbed through the skin via epson salts.

      • Thank icisil. I have heard the same.

        What the ‘high’ ‘Vitamin’ D researchers found while researching calcium, is the vegetarian portion of their cohort who were not magnesium deficient were regulating calcium to maintain biological optimum.

        The meater’s were all magnesium deficient. Their body’s were not regulating the calcium.

        So what they found was severe Magnesium deficiency meat eaters.

        So what has happened is the Medical industry has infiltrated the specification for Minimum Daily Requirement of ‘Vitamin’ D as it is a very, very big money maker for them.

        The lower our ‘Vitamin’ D level is the sicker we get. Also we become overweight and have balance problems. And we get type 2 diabetes.

        When ‘Vitamin’ D levels are increased (from below 20 ng/ml to above 40 ng/ml with Magnesium and Zinc supplements) the body core is energized. People regain the curve in their spine. They look athletic, younger.

        The high ‘Vitamin’ D studies (4000 UI/day and higher) found the patients lose 20 to 40 pounds and feel better. ie. Not ‘depressed’.

        The natural level of serum Vitamin D for humans is around 80 ng/ml to 100 ng/ml.

        The US and Canadian average is 26 ng/ml. 42% of the US and Canadian population are severely ‘Vitamin’ D deficient. Blacks are 82% deficient. Elderly in Louisiana had serum levels around 10 ng/ml.

        Increasing Vitamin D serum levels from below 30 ng/ml to above 40 ng/ml reduces the incidences of many common diseases by 60%.

        Our health care treats sick people who are sick because their bodies are deficient in ‘Vitamin’ D, Magnesium, and Zinc.

        So if we could get the whole population, to close to microbiological optimum, they will stop getting sick and will of course crush the virus.

        In terms of health care, fixing the three deficiencies, fixes all of the low hanging limb health care problems. Saving say 70%.

        • Agreed: The Ca/Mg/Zn with vit D supplement combination is well known within the health circles. And yes, Mg increases water to the bowels, which is why Mg Citrate is used as a laxative.

  40. Despite receiving billions from government funding by DARPA and Gates Moderna has never developed a product that was licensed and got to market. This is an experimental vaccine that permanently changed human DNA to create antibodies that may not be effective or which may cause autoimmune reactions in some people and the DNA changes might be passed along to children. Only long term safety studies can verify its safety, but its being fast tracked. Its also important to note safety tests in Phase I trial was limited to healthy 18-55 yo.

    Furthermore, Fauci also said there is no guarantee the vaccine will be effective. Beyond the fhact that antibody tests don’t prove protection, the only way to verify the vaccine world is to expose people to the virus. Lockdowns make this hard, and also the PCR tests have not been validated and have false positives and false negatives. But more important, as Fauci said , previous vaccine trials on coronavirus vaccines showed the vaccines made the virus more deadly in those who get re-exposed to the virus. Something called antibody immune enhancement. The only way to test this is by exposing the vaccinated intentionally to the live virus, something only done in animal trials. However, Moderna skipped animal trials, so thats not going to be tested except with human guinea pigs in the wild.

    As for J&J. Good lord. Gorsky is the current CEO and was formerly VP of Jansenn when it was witholding data showing the harmful effects of their antipsychotic drug Risperdal (risperidone), harming many people including children. J&J received a huge fine (paid by shareholders) and he got promoted. I’m gonna have a lot of faith in his vaccine.

    Its important to note that none of these vaccines have any liability. If You die or are sick from the vaccination you cant sue them.

    • Even when vaccine makers have liability in theory, in practice they sometimes get indemnities FROM the people they maimed, at least in France (country of pedants and know nothing lawyers and politicized judges).

  41. All we need are a few more positive reports about hydroxychloroquine and then we can have confidence in opening up our economy fully.

    • Tom

      Most of the positive reports for HCQ were in the beginning of the pandemic. What has been happening recently is that the reports have been less than encouraging. That is probably what is at least partly responsible for all the effort in testing old drugs and trying to make new ones — that and the hope for obscene profits by Big Pharma!

      If you and others really think that the fix is in, and that Big Pharma is going to get their designer drugs, you might want to consider taking out a second mortgage on your house and buy stock while the market is down, instead of complaining about the potential cost.

      • Clyde, I haven’t seen any negative reports on hydroxychloroquine. I’ve seen a few that said it had little or no effect, and I’ve seen some like the French study that showed the hydroxychloroquine treatment was clearing the Wuhan virus from the patients in about six days. Remdesivir is claimed to shorten the infection by about four days in some studies.

        There seem to be enough good drug candidates for treating Wuhan virus that even if hydroxychloroquine doesn’t prove out, there are others that may be effective.

        I heard a doctor the other day who is treating the childhood inflamation supposedly caused by Wuhan virus and she said the children’s symptoms were treatable with the current drugs they used normally.

        Inflamation seems to be the big problem with Wuhan virus so any drugs that reduce these actions in the body might be effective in treating the Wuhan virus.

        The best policy for the most vulnerable populations it seems is to treat the Wuhan virus when symptoms first appear with some kind of anti-inflamatory drug or drugs.

        This Wuhan virus is a nasty virus. It causes all sorts of damage to potentially every organ in the body including inflaming the blood vessels throughout the body, and supposedly the longer it remains in the body the more damage it does.

        Still, it looks like we are getting a handle on treating the Wuhan virus which ought to make people a little more confident about going out into the public. If you can count on a drug to pull you through the worst the Wuhan virus can do,or keep it from doing its worst, and it looks like there may be a few out there, then you won’t be too worried about catching it in the first place.

    • I don’t understand why the CDC doesn’t tell people the basic stuff we need to know.
      Go outside get Vit D, don’t use sunscreen if you are not out long enough to burn, otherwise take a vitamin D supplement and a good Zn and Quercetin supplement during cold and flu season and esp during this pandemic. That is the bare minimum.

      And finally, thrive and be your best.

      HCQ and Zn with AZ should be widely prescribed at first signs of a cold until this pandemic is in control.

      All of this information is bad news for industries that rely and need people to be sick. But there is plenty of need for this industry to help us healthy with things we cannot easily prevent. This one is easily mitigated by common sense which is NOT TO BE deficient in some known nutrients!

  42. In looking at the Wuhan virus length of hospitalization it looks to me like the Wuhan virus disease takes an extremely long time to clear from an extremely large number of those infected.

    How does the normal flu compare in this regard? I haven’t had the flu in decades but I seem to remember that the illness usually only lasted about a week or ten days at most. The Wuhan virus is a lot different.

  43. Taking a swipe at ‘anti-vaxxers’ seems about the same level as calling climate skeptics deniers

  44. Another question: Why aren’t we using Wuhan virus plasma vaccine in all the patients in all our nursing homes?

    The treatment is supposdely safe and effective. Shouldn’t we be using this limited resource on the most vulnerable first?

  45. http://www.needtoknow.news
    Right hand column, second article down. 1st peer-reviewed paper: vaccinated kids more illness 470% more autism

    G. Edward Griffin’s site. He wrote The Creature From Jekyll Island, an expose of the Fed.
    Chapter summaries can be read in about an hour,

  46. There is no return to normal? How can people be so stupid – things returned to normal after every single corona virus outbreak in history! Why is this one different – only because we have so many idiot ‘experts’ and ‘modelers’ and politicians. It is only their lockdown policy that has created the idea that we can’t go back to normal – it may even have created the actual possibility, by interfering with the natural course of the epidemic, that it won’t abate like it would have done naturally – it could well remain a problem for years instead of just months.

  47. This is a risky uncharted business with significant economic consequences. By economic consequences, do you mean everything other than specifically treating the virus. Delayed, altered or canceled critical medical services such as cancer treatments? The removal of churches and other forms of interaction as an alternative to governmental moral authority? As in the quality and quantity of life other than COVID-19?

  48. How to make a vaccine:

    Mix animal tissue, human tissue, and viruses:

    What could go wrong?

    Oh, and by the way, weaponized viruses (bio-weapons) are made the same way:

    Mix animal tissue, human tissue, and viruses;

    I could say, “what could go wrong,” but the point is to be dangerous… to be deadly… to incapacitate.

    Food for thought… on the other hand, I just lost my appetite.

  49. Covid19 creates a life threatening situation for only a small minority; for them American MDs Roger Sheult plus Zach Bush and Russian prof. Alexey Polonikov (Kursk) are on a parallel tracks: prevent hypoxic injury by administering N-Acetylcysteine and/ or glutathione by IV to improve oxygen uptake throughout the body. These can also be taken orally before things get bad.

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