By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
As the old saying goes, In God we trust: all others bring data. At last, we have some decent – if not yet peer-reviewed – data on who is most susceptible to the Chinese virus. A large survey of patients hospitalized with the infection has just been published.
Features of 16,749 hospitalized UK patients with COVID-19 using the ISARIC WHO Clinical Characterization Protocol is full of useful facts of which governments can take advantage.
Perhaps the most startling results were that a third of all hospitalized patients died, 17% are still in hospital and only half have been discharged. Almost half of all intensive-care or high-dependency patients and more than half of all ventilated patients died. Almost half of those admitted to hospital had no comorbidities: age seems to be the most important risk factor.
Those aged 50-69 were 4 times likelier to die than those under 50: those in their 70s were 10 times likelier to die; those over 80 were 14 times likelier to die; females were 20% less likely to die than males.
Since the paper is not yet peer-reviewed, an outside expert opinion was sought from Dr Derek Hill, Professor of Medical Imaging at University College, London, who said:
“This is an extremely impressive preprint describing the characteristics of nearly 17000 patients with confirmed COVID-19 in UK hospitals. Important to note it only covers those admitted to hospital, and that it is a snapshot of outcomes: many patients included are still in hospital so their outcomes are not yet known. Therefore all the mortality and survival numbers are subject to change.
“This is an especially large study, so it provides helpful insights into the symptoms of COVID-19 patients admitted to hospital. As has been reported many times, this is not like flu in who gets seriously ill or in mortality: young children seem to have low risk and pregnant women do not have a increased risk of serious illness, and it is deadlier than flu.
There are several distinctive clusters of symptoms, with a significant number of patients not having the characteristic cough and fever symptoms. If extrapolated to the community, this might suggest some deaths due to COVID-19 might be missed in untested people. This work also highlights the link between obesity and poor outcome from COVID-19.”
Policymakers devising strategies for phasing out lockdowns will find the following table summarizing the results useful. For instance, since those under 50 are unlikely to die of the infection and the risk of death even for those in their 60s and 70s is quite small, continuing to lock down the entire economy is no longer necessary.
Instead, there will need to be better procedures for protecting old and sick people in hospitals and in care homes from infection. Outside these settings, old people are canny enough to take their own precautions.
Our daily graphs of growth rates or declines in estimated active cases and growth rates in cumulative deaths shows all countries tracked bar Sweden and Ireland with active-case rates declining, and all but Canada with daily cumulative deaths growing at 3% or less.
![clip_image002[4]](https://i0.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/clip_image0024.jpg?resize=607%2C338&quality=83&ssl=1 "clip_image002[4]")
Fig. 1. Mean compound daily growth rates in estimated active cases of COVID-19 for the world excluding China (red) and for several individual nations averaged over the successive seven-day periods ending on all dates from April 1 to May 2, 2020.
![clip_image004[4]](https://i0.wp.com/wattsupwiththat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/clip_image0044.jpg?resize=607%2C334&quality=83&ssl=1 "clip_image004[4]")
Fig. 2. Mean compound daily growth rates in cumulative COVID-19 deaths for the world excluding China (red) and for several individual nations averaged over the successive seven-day periods ending on all dates from April 8 to May 2, 2020.
Ø High-definition Figures 1 and 2 are here.
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Excuse me, I disagree with the term “C virus” used in the title of this article. The term brings about a negative connotation for people living in that country as well as the diaspora living elsewhere. Average people in the country and people with Asian heritage are innocent victims of the virus as well. Until we figure out what exactly happened, a neutral term of COVID-19 is more appropriate.
OVID-19?
its the virus that originated in China … it only brings about a negative connotation because you are crazy …
If it is true a country can win in a war without firing a single shot, then ‘name calling’ is demonstrating exactly one of the processes of how this transpires, down to the finest detail.
I agree John.
It is extremely poor form to start name calling and so forth when our collective existence depends on good relations, especially at this time when we are all so vulnerable.
Easily the most reprehensible behavior i have seen allowed to continue on this blog.
I call the Chinese virus the Chinese virus just as I call a spade a spade. It is important to remember throughout that this virus only spread worldwide because China dishonoured an international treaty requiring it to report new and fatal infections within 24 hours, and then lied to the effect that it could not be transmitted from person to person, the lie being echoed by the World Death Organization.
After this is over, it will be necessary to abolish the useless WHO and start again with a new, smaller, more high-powered body that is not wholly controlled by China, and to hold China to account so that the Communists do not commit crimes against humanity to the detriment of the global population ever again.
Perhaps you can satisfy yourself of this need to hold “China” accountable until after things settle somewhat.
If you continue with this spade calling, it will only further enhance the control of those in power i fear, and so you are playing exactly into their hands with incredible efficacy.
You will find no ‘thanks’ from me.
I speak as New Zealander who lived and worked in China for 8 years (helecopters pilot Chinese government ) If you think that the political elight in China is.difrent from elsewhere? China has had hundreds of years more experience in decete than the rest of the world, just ask a Chinese. Thank you Lord Christopher
“george Tetley May 4, 2020 at 1:42 am
Thank you Lord Christopher.
He is no more a “Lord” than you or I. Refrain from using the term.
“george Tetley May 4, 2020 at 1:42 am”
Yes. 5000 years or more to cook up fake stuff, even food. Ever wonder why you are always hungry after eating Chinese?
He is no more a “Lord” than you or I. Refrain from using the term.
Unless george Tetley and Patrick MJD are members of the peerage, then Monckton of Brenchley is, indeed, more of a lord than they. Just a fact on the ground.
Within the rules people are free to address others as they wish. For myself, unless I know them personally or there is an established alternative, I stick to the forum identity chosen by the one I am addressing or referring.
“PJF May 4, 2020 at 4:50 am”
Genuflect away at said “Lord”. He is no lord of mine.
I don’t think my left knee is up to it, Patrick MJD.
Of course, pointing out realities doesn’t mean one likes them or agrees with them.
Hear hear.
https://cnsnews.com/article/international/patrick-goodenough/linking-coronavirus-china-racist-numerous-diseases-have
Link to the paper:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.23.20076042v1
Mob
‘Features of 16,749 hospitalized UK patients with COVID-19 using the ISARIC WHO Clinical Characterization Protocol is full of useful facts of which governments can take advantage.”
I posted this up a while ago ( there is a another study coming out as well)
Now, let me take a minute to get on my hobby horse ( like Dr. Slop I suppose) and complain about the
actual lack of data in these types of reports.
The results are of course important but what is lacking is the ACTUAL data.
The actual data ( patient x, weight, age, co morbidity, etc, vitamin D level ) would allow
us to combine data from many sources. patient data from New York, from Korea, From France,
From Sweden, UK.
The actual data would allow us to calculate risk ratios for combinations of factors.
What are the odds ratios by age and weight? by age and comorbidity? by smoking age and weight
by vitamin d levels, by age and weight.
This data exists.
This data was used to create the results.
But we don’t have access to this data. We only get the tabulations.
So one study will tabulate ages by decades. 20-30 for example. Another study will cluster it 18-64
This is data madness.
If the WHO is good for anything it should be good for creating standards of reporting and collecting
and PUBLISHING anonymized patent data at the most granular level. Patient X.
It’s a fricking pandemic. We have a right to this data . we need to be able to combine data from
Multiple areas. Today we cant because researchers publish RESULTS and Summary stats.
the don’t publish the underlying data
I don’t want the young and healthy to remained trapped if the data shows that most of the risk is
to men X years old with BMIs over Y and low Vitamin D… For example.
there are MILLIONS of cases and hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations and recoveries.
We need the data. Not the results. you get the data published and 1000 data science experts
will hop on that data and in short order you will known what clusters of factors are most important
+1
One other big point to make of all this.
What protocol was used to treat these patients as they go into septic shock covid style.
With out this info….
Is the WHO still recomending against anti inflammatory and anti coagulation drugs?
Mr Mosher is right: the useless WHO should have introduced proper reporting and data-handling protocols to a uniform standard long ago. Unfortunately, the organization is so wholly controlled by China that its mission throughout has been to protect the Communist regime rather than doing its job. It is time to abolish the existing organization entirely, forbid any of its current senior personnel from ever holding public office again, and start again from scratch with a smaller, more high-powered body that admits Taiwan as well as China to its membership.
It is even worse with the WHO, they put out unwise treatment info that got a lot of people killed.
See my other posts on EVMS protocol page 9
You forgot ethnicity.
It was W Edwards Deming who made quote about God and data. His work was, to a large degree, responsible for the post World War 2 Japanese manufacturing and economic miracle
You can buy plant seed in Michigan now. That order was rescinded a week ago. What’s wrong in Michigan is you can’t get your hair cut. If you’re a contractor, you can’t get permits for construction. You can’t go to a restaurant to eat. As was mentioned in an earlier comment, most of the outbreak in Michigan was in Detroit and its suburbs. Some restrictions in those areas might have made sense. But the rest of the state didn’t need them. And we let the Governor know that by protests in Lansing.
Can you hunt for morels? It must be about their season.
Did you know that mushrooms tend to contain high levels of vitamin D?
While the author of this latest blog was looking at possible up and coming block buster studies, i was studying Dr Watson and Sherlock Holmes to find as to a possible reason hospitals are clinging to corona patients for dear life.
From: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/private-hospitals-running-at-just-33-of-capacity-says-hse-1.4241286
“Private hospitals are currently operating at only 33 per cent capacity, opposition parties were told by the HSE at a Covid-19 briefing on Wednesday.”
“Public hospitals are currently between 80 to 90 per cent capacity, according to three TDs who were present for the meeting.”
“Half the patients admitted to hospitals had no co-morbidities .”I would like to see their admission criteria . Also discharge criteria fromER. Anecdotally ,in the hospital where I practice, of those admitted to ICU , much greater than 80% have co-morbidities.
There may be a largely ignored benefit for countries such as Australia that imposed fairly rapid public lockdown and self-isolation regimes.
Lockdowns significantly reduce transmission of other communicable diseases (e.g. influenza, meningococcal, hepatitis, cholera, tuberculosis, malaria, syphilis, whooping cough, measles, meningitis, dengue, tetanus, etc).
Analysis of data from Australia’s National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System (http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/source/rpt_1_sel.cfm) is interesting.
Among 67 diseases listed, excluding COVID-19, monthly notification totals show …
March 2019 – 147
March 2020 – 110.1
However, Australia’s self-isolation hadn’t fully kicked in until April …
April 2019 – 166.6
April 2020 – 51.8
The 67 diseases range from hepatitis to salmonella, tuberculosis, chlamydia, gonorrhoea, malaria and Ross River Virus.
Alternatively, the Immunisation Coalition (https://www.immunisationcoalition.org.au/news-media/2020-influenza-statistics/) has stats specifically on Australian influenza cases, currently updated to 27 April 2020 …
March 2019 – 11,158
March 2020 – 5,863
April 2019 – 18,667
April 2020 – 179
A caveat to the figures above might be that COVID-19 fears have discouraged some people from visiting GP clinics or hospitals, but they are very large reductions and logic dictates they are mostly due to social distancing.
According to the ABS, Australia had 3,102 deaths from influenza/pneumonia in 2018 and 1,255 deaths solely from influenza in 2017.
Although all Australian states will probably have ended social isolation measures in about a month, assuming there’s no COVID-19 resurgence and if the monthly disease figures above are accurate, an argument might be put that COVID-19 has been a lifesaver in Australia where the current COVID-19 death toll is 95.
Australia’s total health spending in 2017-18 was $185.4 billion. Notwithstanding possibly increased expenditure on cabin fever mental health issues and welfare for unemployed medical workers (I’m kidding -sort of), a very long public lockdown period should generate some savings from the suppression of non-COVID-19 communicable diseases – but certainly nowhere near enough to offset the economic cost if the issue is considered only from a financial perspective.
Countries with arguably slow implementation of lockdown measures have higher short-term COVID-19 fatality rates, but they also might see a reduction in other diseases. It may seem a heartless acceptance of COVID-19 deaths, but other diseases also cause unpublicised suffering and grief so their suppression should be included in any eventual analysis of the cost of the virus pandemic.
Mr Gillham’s information is most useful, if not at all unexpected. Given that there ought to be a reduction in overall excess mortality from the factors that he mentions, the fact that there is very large excess mortality in recent weeks indicates still more strongly that the Chinese virus is the reason.
“Chris Gillham May 3, 2020 at 6:29 pm
Lockdowns significantly reduce transmission of other communicable diseases (e.g. influenza, meningococcal, hepatitis, cholera, tuberculosis, malaria, syphilis, whooping cough,…”
I call BS on that!
Why, it is a form of Quarantine, which has always reduced communicable diseases .
Are you a “history denier”?
Syphilis? Are you as mad as Hitler?
I can’t quite make head or tail of the BS and Hitler/syphilis responses to my earlier contribution.
With nightclubs, pubs and parties shut down for more than a month, good luck to the spread of syphilis, gonorrhoea and other sexually transmitted diseases. Couples stuck at home together might be bonking a bit more than usual (I doubt it) but if either suddenly has syphilis then the other can probably expect a divorce.
On a more serious note, the Australian Immunisation Coalition data (https://www.immunisationcoalition.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/4May-Aust-Flu-Stats-2020.pdf) has been updated to 4 May so it presumably now includes all influenza cases for the month of April.
April 2019 – 18,667
April 2020 – 262
It should be noted that 2019 was a very bad year in Australia for influenza and the previous four years from 2015 to 2018 averaged only 2,141 cases. Indeed, in 2009 there were only 275.
However, the drop from 18,667 to 262 remains a strong indicator that the lockdown has suppressed the transmission of communicable diseases other than COVID-19.
Australia’s National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System (http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/source/rpt_1_sel.cfm) has also updated its April figures for 67 communicable diseases, excluding COVID-19, and there’s been a slight increase …
April 2019 – 166.6
April 2020 – 52.8
It’s way too early in the month to draw conclusions but the NDSS also has early figures for May, having been updated today – 5 May.
May 2019 – 224.7
To 5 May 2020 – 0.6
Way too early, as I say, because I don’t know how immediate is their notification system from state and territory health authorities. However, the early indicator is that Australia’s lockdown has put a big dent in the transmission of diseases other than COVID-19.
the average age of deaths in Europe has been around 80 for last 6 weeks … didn’t need a “study” to tell us the old are the at risk, the death stats told us that …
this is just more experts telling us that the thing on the front of your face is actually a nose … after careful study of course …
these guys couldn’t get wet falling out of a boat …
Finally, hard data ? European countries have been publishing deaths by age for weeks now … daily … we have had hard data for awhile …
waiting for some “expert” to actually look at it seems to be pure folly on steroids …
the lockdowns were premised on certain assumptions …
we now have real data to substitute for those assumptions (most of which were wrong)
the facts have changed, why have the options/policies of policy makers not changed ?
Is it becasue they knew their assumptions where wrong all along and just an excuse for their policies ?
The somewhat hysterical tone of “the dark lord”, while understandable, is not helpful. He is perhaps unfamiliar with elementary statistics, or he would understand that a large survey of this kind is less prone to be unreliable than the smaller, quicker, dirtier surveys that preceded it.
Good vit d article The sunshine vitamin
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3356951/
TMI
I stand in my skivies in the morning sun 10 minutes a side. The birds are often blinded by the whiteness and fly into stationary objects
As a relatively simple non-statistician non-medical mechanical engineer, I have seen no mention of the obvious question – what details SHOULD be recorded for each affected (?) person? It seems to me that, with the best of intentions, each medical authority is making a stab at recording what they think is appropriate, then all sorts of incomparable comparisons are being made. Should not the WHO have tackled this early on, and issued a list of the data to be collected in ALL cases? Such a simple suggestion! Here in island-nation New Zealand, we are still under lockdown after 6 economy-destroying weeks, having experienced 20 deaths (more than half from one badly infected rest home) in our population of almost 5million. Perhaps not as good as Taiwan, but not bad for a population which values its independence! I feel sorry for our non-technical politicians who have to make decisions based on technical advice from those who do not have suitable comparable data!
It also concerns me that generalisations are being made about “old people, many with underlying health problems” – I am especially interested in old healthy people like me (82).
What no one is talking about is correct method to care for the backend of covid when you go into septic shock covid style.
If your immune system is triggered it must be dealt with quickly and in the right manner.
It puts a lot of pressure on your body, hard to say what blows out first.
I post this again, I wish someone should post a full article on this issue that is never covered.
https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/departments/internal_medicine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf
Short url evms.edu/covidcare
“As a relatively simple non-statistician non-medical mechanical engineer, I have seen no mention of the obvious question – what details SHOULD be recorded for each affected (?) person? It seems to me that, with the best of intentions, each medical authority is making a stab at recording what they think is appropriate, then all sorts of incomparable comparisons are being made. Should not the WHO have tackled this early on, and issued a list of the data to be collected in ALL cases?”
yes.
The lack of standard data collection, data reporting is shocking
“Steven Mosher May 3, 2020 at 10:35 pm
The lack of standard data collection, data reporting is shocking…”
Bit like climate “science”.
err wrong.
but nice try.
An analysis of the situation with Covid 19 and the Vitamin D question is here: https://thefatemperor.com/ep73-vitamin-d-status-and-viral-interactionsthe-science/
He is an engineer.
Laboratory-Confirmed COVID-19-Associated Hospitalizations (Rate per 100,000 population): 40.4
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_3.html
Laboratory-Confirmed Flu Hospitalization (Rate per 100,000, for Nov-May 2019-20 Flu season): 69
https://gis.cdc.gov/GRASP/Fluview/FluHospRates.html
The increase in Covid cases is slowing in U.S. and likely will level by summer.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/
Further, we vaccinate millions of people for flu. Without this campaign the number of flu deaths would rival those of Covid-19.
Yesterday CofB made a deceptive comparison to last year’s flu season to give “context” to COVID numbers where he calculated 10.5% CFR. I pointed out 2017/18 flu season had 10.4% – 10.8% mortality according to NIH. As always he refuses to address any contrary evidence and continues to propagate his ill-informed , preconceived views on everything COVID.
At last some useful new information from CofB. Good digging. Well done !
Now we can see why UK govt has been almost the only country to NOT provide data on the number of cured patients.
HUH? He can’t even read his own graphs ( probably because they’re fuzzy, confused and illegible ). According to his “active” graph Ireland was at 10% on April 15th and dropped dramatically to below 0% now . No decline? Sweden has shown a steady monotonic decline from 8% down to 1% now, despite having opted for minimal restrictions and not trashing their economy.
Again, he has a predisposition against the choice that Sweden made and is able to state the exact opposite of what his own “analysis” shows in order to confirm his biased opinion.
There are two countries which do show a recent rise on his “active-cases” spaghetti graph: Taiwan and S. Korea. The two countries he has been applauding for their draconian authoritarian responses to COVID. They are now paying the price for aggressively suppressing the initial spread of infection.
You really have to wonder why we have to put up with the kind of self contradictory nonsense day after day.
And, yes, I’ll stop “whining” when you stop BS-ing everyone.
“Professor Yitzhak Ben Israel of Tel Aviv University, who also serves on the research and development advisory board for Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, warned weeks ago that lockdowns were not working. ”
https://townhall.com/columnists/marinamedvin/2020/04/15/israeli-professor-shows-virus-follows-fixed-pattern-n2566915
For those who think reporting by race is, er, racist, then that is bad medicine. For some medical conditions, there are higher rates of issues for certain races. If one race is more susceptible, then that should also be tracked.
Furthermore, it would appear that nearly all pharmaceutical testing avoids testing new drugs on women because they don’t want to factor in the menstrual cycle. Doesn’t matter that the effectiveness of the drug may be affected by the menstrual cycle! Preliminary work has also shown viagara is highly effective for women with heart conditions. But further testing was not done due to a lack of funding by pharmaceutical companies too scared that such research might unearth something culminating in the withdrawl of viagara from the market. That is bad medicine.
A reasonable prediction on the outcome after some months of the pandemi for different countries:
Those countries that gave the virus some weeks to develop before hard measures were set in may get about 1000 deaths pr million from COVID-19. Like USA, UK, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Sweden.
Countries with a fast lockdown may get under 100 deaths pr million. Like Finland, Norway, Poland and most countries in eastern Europe, Indonesia, Japan, Philippines, Australia among others.
Some countries may contain the virus and get it under control, and open up soon (with restrictions for foreign travelers). Like Iceland and perhaps New Zealand.
So perhaps without firm measures there has been an uncontrolled outbreak of infection with about 10 times more deaths. 1 in 1000 of the whole population dies.
+100
But don’t forget other actions, ie like the public wearing of PPE, like Czechia.
If there were not N95 rated, then they were COMPLETELY USELESS!
No. FFP2 or FFP3 also help a big deal. Even other masks offer some minor protection.
1 viral particle will not make you sick. You need a sufficient load that the virus can overcome your innate immune response.
That’s true for all viruses and the reason why you can’t get an infection from saliva from a HIV positive though it contains virus. The load is not sufficient.
So if you get in contact with SARS-CoV-2 but reduce the amount by 95% your immune system might be able to fight off this initial infection at once.
It is a function of viral load/time.
Ron,
you write “1 viral particle will not make you sick.” and “It is a function of viral load/time.”
I’ve often wondered about that. How big is the viral load needed? Are there differences depending on age, health, whatever? Is there a viral load that helps you get immune but doesn’t make you really really sick?
Inquiring minds want to know 😉
lb
“How big is the viral load needed? Are there differences depending on age, health, whatever?”
I don’t know but I would guess all these things matter for the viral load needed and of course the genes as always. The gene lottery is just unfair but contributes always to varying degrees.
“Is there a viral load that helps you get immune but doesn’t make you really really sick?”
Interesting question.
I am no immunologist but I would guess there might be a T cell mediated short-lived immune response that could result in milder outcomes.
For an adaptive immune response (antibody generation) a full course infection is probably needed.
Interesting analysis. The 8% obesity comorbidity and 5% smoking comorbidity appear illogical. Prevalence of obesity and smoking in the general population is much higher than that and the prevalence of obesity among IC patients in the Netherlands is some 80%. Maybe the threshold for obesity as a morbidity is too high or more likely, the comorbidity data are just uselessly inaccurate and incomplete. It is not surprising that old people ventilated show a high mortality, it is a very high impact therapy and only applied to very ill patients. The data are until the 18th of April, maybe time for an update.
Intersting video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmDng_uMCnY
“Vitamin D & the Upper Respiratory Tract”
It seems possible that older people are less able to manufacture their own Vitamine D
That is very well known: 50-year olds synthesize half as much vitamin D as the 20-year olds.
https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/05/01/covid-why-sweden-has-already-won-the-debate-on-covid-19-lockdown-policy/
Yet another bullshit article that does not compare Apples with Apples.
Compared to other Nordic countries Sweden is doing terribly as you well know.
That author has obviously not looked at what the countries that he quoted as having a “lighter touch” actually did and when they did it.
He also does not mention Australia & New Zealand who instigated proper Quarantine and have done 10 time better than Sweden.
He is as clueless as you.
it’s doing fine-
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
and will not have a recurrence like other lock down countries.
You actually think that they will will get to herd immunity any time soon with only 24,000 cases out of 10 million people.
Sorry you are deluded
Unfortunately, it’s hard to know what the real number of people are who’ve been exposed and recovered with immunity. Maybe the assumption is greater than 50% by now? But, I also know the adage, Assume makes and a$$ out of U and Me
“Who is at risk from the Chinese Virus?”
Old, infirm, people with co-morbidity issues, obese, heavy smokers, hypertension, immunodeficient…blah blah blah…
97% of others remain unaffected! So lets just shutdown the whole global economy to save a less than 100 lives in Australia! There was a time when travellers on international aircraft had anti-viral/bac sprays deployed in cabins upon arrival.
You sir are an idiot, they only had 100 because of the actions they took.
You totally fail to understand the age old principle of Quarantine and Isolation.
“A C Osborn May 4, 2020 at 4:53 am”
That is complete bollox! Actions? What actions?
You complain about the actions the world is taking and then say “what action” as if Australia hasn’t taken any actions?
Sorry John, I stand by first assessment.
A C, you seem a tad confused. your reply to Pat’s comments but address them as “sorry John”. Please don’t ascribe one persons comments to another, thanks.
John, I was saying that I still think he is an idiot, ie I stand by my first assessment despite what you said.
He is contrary for the sake of it.
Name calling doesn’t make your point any more or less valid than anyone else’s.
You totally fail to understand the age old principle of Quarantine and Isolation
the age old principle of Quarantine is to isolate *the sick* and those who may have been exposed to the sick. It’s usually not applied to the healthy who are not known to have been exposed to the sick.
John, that is the normal, unfortunately when you have asymptomatic spreader you have no idea who they are.
Still doesn’t change the fact that “the age old principle of Quarantine” is to isolate *the sick*” rather than the healthy.
How do you “isolate the sick” when you don’t know who they are?
Who’s at risk? Only all the people whose businesses have been destroyed, all the people who will suffer from the impending poverty, all the people whose health has been compromised by unhealthful lockdowns, all the people who will suffer under this new tyranny, etc., etc.
This week in my neighborhood a man whose business was destroyed committed suicide.
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13347791
More will come.
Thanks a lot for supporting this horrendous attack on human liberty Monckton.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/28/coronavirus-hype-biggest-political-hoax-in-history/
“FRANCE sparked further doubt on the spread of the coronavirus after doctors at a hospital in the suburbs of Paris said one of their patients appeared to have had the virus as early as December after tests were repeated”
The patient is well.
Yes, and aren’t you, Monckton, just like the climate modelers who only see CO2 as a driver, leaving out water vapor, clouds, etc. ? Can’t you see the elephant in the room: the cost to human liberty–Human liberty , the loss of which will result in the downfall of Western civilization?
What loss of Liberty?
Do you actually think that the lockdowns will never end?
will they be back at Christmas?
Loss of ones liberty isn’t any less of a loss just because it’s temporary. If the police grabbed you off the street and locked you up in a prison cell for 6 months then let you go free would you say you didn’t have any loss of liberty because it was only temporary? seriously?
A C Osborn, the lockdowns set a precedent that will never be relinquished by power hungry states. This is unprecedented. Never before have whole healthy populations been locked down– previously, only the infected have been quarantined.
Think it won’t happen again? I suggest you study a little bit if history.
Further, we have the MSM supporting the States’ narratives, quasi-governmental big-tech groups outright censoring truth, and what they do best–distorting or ignoring important information. So many examples! Here’s one: Scissors mentioned in a previous thread that even Elizabeth Warren’s brother died of C19. Check it out. How many MSN sights “forgot” to include pertinent information that he was 86 years old and for some years had been undergoing cancer therapy and had other co-morbidities. Of course, he must have died of thar dread plague, COVID19, because that justifies the suppression of liberty, and fuels the mind-numbing hysteria.