Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
After all the people saying we shouldn’t take chloroquine because of the side effects, let me take the opportunity to say some words about that curious drug.
I moved to the Solomon Islands, north of Australia near the Equator, in 1984. I ended up living and working there for nine years. The Solomons host all four kinds of malaria—Plasmodium falciparum, P. ovale, P. malariae, and P. vivax. Unlike most parts of the world, at the time the four kinds of malaria in the Solomons were not chloroquine-resistant.

So I took chloroquine prophylactically once a week to prevent the disease. 500 mg (300 mg base), one pill every seven days.
After I’d been there maybe three years, I thought “I don’t want to take this forever. If I get malaria, I’ll cure it, that’s what medicine is for”. So after having taken well over 100 doses of chloroquine, I gave it up.
Of course, after stopping chloroquine, I got malaria. It is a most curious and devious houseguest. Malaria has a bunch of forms, all with different shapes and different abilities, and it changes form like we change shirts. When it hits your bloodstream, it streaks for your liver as fast as it can. Along the way, it is shedding parts of its skin layer. These skin bits occupy and distract a large number of antibodies, which recognize enemies by their skin surfaces. This allows more of the malaria parasites to make it to the liver. When it gets to the liver, it changes form.
After living for a bit in the liver in that new form, it changes form again and goes back out into your bloodstream and gets inside the red blood cells. Where, of course, it changes into another form.
Unlike the other forms, this latest form can reproduce. It starts to produce thousands and thousands of descendants, which eventually rupture the red blood cells and re-emerge into your bloodstream.
Until that point, you don’t even know the tiny criminals have invaded your corporeal mansion. But when they rupture the red blood cells, your body gets the full-blown malarial crisis, shaking and sweating, chills and fever at once. I’d always thought stories about people’s teeth chattering in sickness from the chills were exaggerations.
I was very wrong.
Now, at the time we were living on a 280 acre (110 ha) coral atoll island called Liapari Island, way out in the outback. Here’s the island, on the right …

The Solomon Islands are in the middle of nowhere, north of Australia below the equator. Western Province in the Solomon Islands, with the Western Province capital at Gizo Island, is even more nowhere. And Liapari Island, 17 miles (27 km) by water from Gizo, is the very heart of nowhere.
Fortunately, my gorgeous ex-fiancee is a family nurse practitioner. The doctors there advised quinine. So she took the company outboard skiff, drove it seventeen miles to Gizo, and brought back the quinine. I took the prescribed dose. Horribly bitter pills.
Well, I’m here to say that the damn quinine cure is far worse than the disease. It adds bad pain and weakness on top of chills and fever. I recall that at one point it took me about thirty seconds of hard work just to sit up in the bed. When I laid down, I thought “I can’t be that weak! I just can’t be! It can’t take that long just to sit up!”
So I tried it again.
45 seconds that second time. Crazy weakness and pain. I’d never felt anything like the combination of malaria and quinine, and I definitely don’t recommend it no matter how bored you are.
After that, I never took quinine again. I would take its chemical cousin, chloroquine, instead. But this time I was taking it curatively, not preventatively. It was not fun in the high doses, but it beat the malaria back, and it was much more tolerable than quinine.
Finally, after suffering a couple more bouts of malaria over the next couple years, my mad mate Mike told me that when you feel malaria coming on, and you can definitely can feel it coming on, to take three weekly doses at once (1500 mg, or 900 mg of base), then the same thing 24 hours later, then the same thing on the third day. He swore it fended off the malaria.
So I started using his plan, and I never got full-blown malaria again. Just take nine weeks worth of chloroquine in three days, it aborts the onset of the chills and fever, no problem.
In addition, at the time, I knew dozens and dozens of expatriates in the Solomons and maybe half or more of them used chloroquine for either prophylaxis or cure of malaria.
In summary: yes, as with any medicine, some people suffer side effects from chloroquine. But it is widely tolerated. In addition, it’s cheap because it’s been used since the 1930s, so it’s been off-patent for decades, and the side effects are well known
Do we know scientifically if it works for COVID-19? Nope. But I’ll guarantee you that if I get the ‘rona, I will take chloroquine and azithromycin and zinc. Nothing to lose, everything to gain, and Fauci is both mad and destructive to argue against it.
And to close out the story of the madcap transformations of the malaria parasite, we left it swimming in our bloodstream after rupturing the red blood cells. From there, a mosquito removes it from your body with its magic hypodermic needle, and it moves into the mosquito’s stomach where … yes, you guessed it, it transforms itself once again into a new kind of malarious being. And when the mosquito bites another person, it injects that form into your bloodstream, whereupon it starts racing for their liver to start the cycle again.
There is one final oddity of this most odd of life forms. Sometimes, P. falciparum vivax malaria can … yep, you got it … change into yet another form. It does this in the liver, and after changing forms it promptly falls asleep for maybe a year. Or two. Or more. This form goes by the absolutely wonderful name of a “hypnozoite”, after Hypnos, the Greek god of sleep. Hypnozoites are the source of the world-famous recurrence of malaria years, occasionally decades, after leaving the malarial zones.
When one of the hypnozoites wakes up after a two-year nap, I assume it stretches, yawns, looks at the other still-sleeping hypnozoites, and of course, it being malaria and all, just for fun it changes form. No longer a hypnozoite, it jumps into the bloodstream, reproduces inside the red blood cells until they burst … and that is how after I’d left the Solomons and had been living in Fiji for a couple of years, I suddenly felt that awful familiar feeling.
And being an honest man I must confess, at that moment I said very bad words. Not only that, but I engaged in needless and ultimately pointless vituperation, casting unpleasant but extremely satisfying aspersions as to the ancestry of the whole tribe of mosquitoes and malaria in all their evil blood-sucking cell-destroying forms.
I had been convinced at the time that I was done with malaria, but nooo … my main medical squeeze had to go hunt for chloroquine, there’s no malaria in Fiji. And once I got cured of the immediate malarial relapse, I took another drug that in theory kills the remaining hypnozoites, and me and malaria, we parted ways for good. At least I sure hope so.
And that’s my story of chloroquine and the reason why I say that anyone who gets the virus should at least try it.
My best to all, stay well, wash hands, don’t invite any strange bats to dinner, don’t touch your face, or your bat’s face for that matter, wear a mask, avoid crowds, you know the plan …
w.
PS- Regarding schools as centers of infection, the Solomons uses the British system of boarding schools. Grade school kids go from their villages to the local boarding school, which is often on another island, where they spend the entire semester.
And we always had to gird our loins and break out the mosquito repellent when the kids all returned at semester break, because invariably they brought a surfeit of malaria back with them …
I really hate it when “Scientists” use the statement that there are no accepted studies that … , as a way of claiming that the opposite is true, when in fact there have been no studies at all.
That’s the case with hydroxychloroquine, no properly conducted studies have been completed, hence they don’t know either way, yet many are using this to claim it doesn’t work.
However a statistical analysis of co-morbidities of serious covid patients should quickly and authoritatively provide strong evidence that some medications for chronic diseases that are seriously underrepresented in serious Covid-19 patients seem to stave off the worst effects of the virus. There is a claim that lupus is underrepresented which would point to hydroxychloroquine being effective, but I haven’t seen the evidence of this underrepresentation.
That’s all we need, an effective treatment against the worst effects, we don’t need a vaccine.
Willis: Great article and story. Well worth the read… a full course in a short story!
I have been telling people that quinine does not work like hydroxychloroquine because quinine is not an ionophore. Am I wrong about that? Also, that drinking tonic water has a very low amount of quinine and would not be enough to even help malaria… as well that malaria today is resistant to quinine anyway. Posted again because error message.
Safe for me, but for thee?
““To our utter surprise, both HCQ and CQ when combined with metformin resulted in a surprising death rate in 30-40% of mice. In contrast, there were no deaths in the single treatment groups,” said the authors.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/04/05/researchers-warn-that-covid-19-treatment-touted-by-trump-may-be-toxic-when-combined-with-diabetes-drug/#d72630d55f82
Nicholas McGinley,
Check out this video about Diabetes Drugs and treatment of COVID-19 with hydroxychloroquine.
It is by a real doctor that deals with real people.
https://youtu.be/D6td4Clc_DA
So, I’m guessing no one with diabetes ever went to Africa or took malaria drugs as prophylaxis? Perhaps they did, but no one ever looked into the death rate of diabetics falling ill prior to their trips to malaria prone hotspots.
I took chloroquine every week for 3 years in the early 60s in Penang. As did my whole family. None of us ever suffered side effects.
“What are the dangers associated with chloroquine?
Doyon: Chloroquine has been used for the management of malaria for decades. Both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have some usefulness in the management of certain inflammatory diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus. It must be emphasized that chloroquine is a very toxic medication, and when you ingest too much of it you will develop symptoms including loss of hearing, loss of vision, and potentially cardiac arrhythmias. Chloroquine is a prescription product and should always be taken under medical supervision.
Zhong: A previous study has shown chloroquine can exacerbate acetaminophen-induced liver injury in mice due to its ability to inhibit autophagy and mitochondria function. Whether hydroxylchloroquine can make liver damage worse in combinational use with acetaminophen is unknown. What are the up-limited doses of acetaminophen and hydroxylchloroquine for COVID-19 patients? Unknown. The knowledge is so urgently important for tens thousands of people who are suffering COVID-19 in the US and needs to be addressed quickly.”
https://today.uconn.edu/2020/03/qa-ibuprofen-chloroquine-covid-19/#
For those not convinced that HCQ is benign, with not significant side-effects, as attested by laymen, I suggest reading the following:
https://www.drugs.com/mmx/hydroxychloroquine-sulfate.html
Note especially, “Doses of chloroquine phosphate as small as 0.75 to 1 gram in children, and 2.25 to 3 grams in adults, may be fatal. It is assumed that hydroxychloroquine is equally toxic.” And, “Since there is no specific antidote, treatment of hydroxychloroquine overdose should be symptomatic and supportive …”
re: “Doses of chloroquine phosphate as small as 0.75 to 1 gram in children, and 2.25 to 3 grams in adults, may be fatal.”
Strawman; I have not seen recommended dosage levels that extreme by anyone.
Who was ever talking doses measured in GRAMS ?
The highest I saw here was I think 800 mg … milligrams.
My twofer cans of Tonic Water daily is 40 mg … milligrams.
Jim & sendergreen
“…, my mad mate Mike told me that when you feel malaria coming on, and you can definitely can feel it coming on, to take three weekly doses at once (1500 mg, or 900 mg of base), [1.5 grams!] then the same thing 24 hours later, then the same thing on the third day.”
— Eschenbach
1.5 grams is dangerously close to the toxicity threshold, which almost certainly varies with individual sensitivities, and does vary with the weight of the person taking it. LD50, which is the level at which 50% of test subjects die, is given as milligrams toxin/kilogram of body-weight. That is, what a 100 kg man may survive will probably kill a 50 kg woman or child. How many laymen realize that? Would they be tempted to give their sick child the same dose recommended for an adult if they had a bottle of HCQ?
“The highest I saw here was I think 800 mg.” = 0.80 grams > 0.75 grams
Unfortunately, in our culture, there is an attitude that if a little bit is good, a lot is better.
I have not seen anything in the news about how much the two people took of the aquarium cleaner (chloroquine phosphate), but the death of the husband and severe illness of the wife suggests in the “grams” range.
People in India have been drinking cow urine, many people have died in the Middle-east from drinking methanol, and two are known to have died from chloroquine in the US. This all strikes me as being only slightly removed from believing that a rabbit’s-foot charm will bring good luck, despite it obviously having brought the rabbit bad luck. There is a reason that civilized people quit using witch doctors and demanded that physicians use medications that have been shown, by controlled experiment, to actually work. The natural recovery rate for COVID-19 is so high, and often so rapid, that the ‘lives saved’ by HCQ can be explained easily by the assumption that the people would have recovered without the HCQ. The fact that HCQ apparently doesn’t work on those severely ill can be explained by the fact that these are people who didn’t recover naturally; hence, giving them an ineffective treatment will not work.
Clyde copies :
“my mad mate Mike told me that when you feel malaria coming on, and you can definitely can feel it coming on, to take three weekly doses at once (1500 mg, or 900 mg of base), [1.5 grams!] then the same thing 24 hours later, then the same thing on the third day.”
So not a clinical or prescribed dose but one from … Dr. Mad Mike ?
A graduate of the Philosophy Department of the University of Woolamaloo. We’ll just call him “Bruce”
Clyde, here is the story of the second US doctor to become infected.
45 years old, “In 21 years on the job, almost all at EvergreenHealth, he said he had taken only five sick days.”
“His colleagues at the hospital put him on the anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine, whose effectiveness for the coronavirus is still unknown, but Dr. Padgett’s condition continued to worsen.
By March 16, his heart was struggling, his kidneys were failing and his lungs were not providing enough oxygen to his body. The levels became so dire that he was on the verge of injuring his brain through oxygen starvation.
Dr. Padgett’s team at EvergreenHealth decided to transfer him to cardiac specialists at Swedish Health Services in Seattle. Dr. Matt Hartman, a cardiologist there, said it was clear that Dr. Padgett’s condition was rapidly worsening and that if they did not do something, he would not survive.
“We didn’t know if this was someone who was just going to die no matter what we do,” he said. “We think with his age, and the fact that there’s no other major comorbidity or problem, that we should at least give it a try.”
The team decided to hook Dr. Padgett up to a machine known as an ECMO that could essentially serve as both an artificial heart and lung, taking his blood out of his body, oxygenating it and returning it to him. While such procedures are most often done in the surgery suites, in this case it was all done in the intensive care unit, to prevent the spread of the coronavirus elsewhere in the hospital.
“We brought the operating room to him,” said Dr. Samuel Youssef, a cardiac surgeon at Swedish.
The team also began consulting with oncologists. Indicators of inflammation in Dr. Padgett’s body were “astonishingly high,” suggesting that he was potentially dealing with a “cytokine storm,” a dangerous phenomenon in which the immune systems of otherwise healthy people overreact in fighting the coronavirus.
News to stay informed. Advice to stay safe.
Click here for complete coronavirus coverage from Microsoft News
The doctors administered the drug tocilizumab, often used for cancer patients who can have similar immune system reactions. They added high-dose vitamin C after seeing reports that it might be beneficial. These experimental treatments had also been tried on another patient, a 33-year-old woman, with some success.
Over that week in mid-March, there were signs of improvement. As his inflammation numbers came down and his lungs started to provide more oxygen, the team began scaling back the ECMO machine, until they finally removed it on March 23.”
It is harrowing, and an important read.
““It goes from kind of initially feeling like this was a flulike illness where the vulnerable are the ones that are going to get sick, and now understanding that the vulnerable are getting sick and there’s going to be some young, healthy people that get cut down with this,” he said. “That’s the scary part. I think of my colleagues still on the front lines. That’s what I fear for them.”
Dr. Padgett said he was still working to recover physically and mentally. He worried now about whether he would regain full cognitive function, noting moments of memory and attention problems””
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/he-was-a-doctor-who-never-got-sick-then-the-coronavirus-nearly-killed-him/ar-BB12zNAs?ocid=msedgntp
“Doses of chloroquine phosphate as small as 0.75 to 1 gram in children, and 2.25 to 3 grams in adults, may be fatal. It is assumed that hydroxychloroquine is equally toxic.”
Bad assumption. Different drugs. Different chemistry. Chloroquine phosphate is used as a fishtank cleaner. Hydrosychloroquine is an over-the-counter drug in most places.
Pauligon
You are claiming to be more of an authority than those who run the drugs.com website? They certainly provide more detailed information than you do, and also provide citations, which you don’t.
While chloroquine phosphate is used as an aquarium cleaner, that is not its only use. Your claim is like saying that because antibiotics are given to hogs, antibiotics should not be used by humans.
Phosphate toxicity: new insights into an old problem
Iamknot Amedic — That is obvious!
The article you linked to is basically about dietary phosphate intake, and does not speak to the the toxicity of of chloroquine phosphate. Indeed, the summary says, “Of relevance, phosphate toxicity induced by excessive exogenous phosphate administration can be fatal …. Although the lethal dose of phosphate in humans is unknown, …” He is talking about calcium phosphate, the mineral apatite, principally. Although, sodium phosphate enemas are referred to. The closest that the phosphate ion comes to being independent is in phosphoric acid, used in flavored drinks. The other forms of phosphate, bound to a metallic cation, are less soluble and vary in their individual toxicities.
In a Frank and Ernest cartoon one asks the other, “If we are at the top of the food chain, how do you explain mosquitos?”
re: ” how do you explain mosquitos”
Embrace the term “parasite”.
Neither Frank nor Ernest apparently realize that mosquitoes don’t eat people.
“Toronto, Apr 09: The drugs chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, being used to treat and prevent COVID-19 despite weak evidence for their effectiveness, may have adverse side effects on patients like irregular heartbeats and reduced blood glucose levels, a new study says.”
https://in.news.yahoo.com/hydroxychloroquine-drug-may-lead-irregular-113618165.html
And it would have the same adverse effects on those people with malaria.
I’m getting daily low doses with Tonic Water. It’s sugar-ed like a coke so lowering blood sugar levels isn’t a concern.
Heart Arrhythmia? Again low dose, and the key … I have four daughters and haven’t slept since 1987. : )
Not scared yet.
I believe it’s the azithromycin which has potential coronary side-effects. But other similar drugs have been used to replace it in this combination and seem to work as well.
The media nonsense is all just Project Fear.
“I am a medicinal chemist who specializes in discovery and development of antiviral drugs, and I have been actively working on coronaviruses for seven years.
However, because I am a scientist and I deal in facts and evidence-based medicine, I am concerned about the sweeping statements the president has been making regarding the use of chloroquine or the closely related hydroxychloroquine, both antimalarial drugs, as cures for COVID-19. So let’s examine the facts.”
https://www.minnpost.com/other-nonprofit-media/2020/03/could-chloroquine-treat-coronavirus-five-questions-answered-about-a-promising-problematic-and-unproven-use-for-an-antimalarial-drug/
But, he’s not a clinician.
cli·ni·cian /kləˈniSHən/
noun
a doctor having direct contact with and responsibility for patients, rather than one involved with theoretical or laboratory studies.
And neither am I.
Thank you for pointing that out.
No one should ever make any medical decision based on anything I have opined on…ever.
That is for sure.
Evidently there are people here who are far smarter with a far more keenly honed intuition that I could ever want to assert, as well as having, based on their willingness to offer medical advice, actual bona fides to do so.
Keep up the good work, and all the best to you.
“With years of experience researching Malaria, Professor G Padmanaban is the right man to clarify why the anti-malarial Hydroxychloroquine is being pushed to the frontlines against COVID-19.”
” In the case of COVID-19, the side effects of HCQ treatment are not fully known. Since, some countries have adopted the same and doing trials, adequate data on efficacy and safety would soon be available. The public needs to be aware that it is a prescription drug and clinicians should decide when to use it. Self-medication needs to be strictly avoided.”
https://www.thebetterindia.com/223475/coronavirus-covid19-hydroxychloroquine-malaria-trump-modi-india-iisc-expert-nor41/
re: “Self-medication needs to be strictly avoided.”
HOW do you get a prescription drug dispensed from a pharmacy w/o a doctors’s prescription?
Uhh … just asking …
Jim-
Easy. You have a friend or relative with rheumatoid arthritis or lupus. Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine sulfate) is routinely prescribed for both. Most people get a prescription for three months supply. So you just ask them for a few days worth when you feel like you have the virus. And remember to take a zinc supplement with it.
Taking it long term as a preventative is a different story.
re: “You have a friend or relative with rheumatoid arthritis or lupus.”
(Criminally) Involve another in a ruse? We’re talking conspiracy now … and this assumes the other party will participate.
Jim
You said, “…this assumes the other party will participate.” Which they often do! After all, if everyone is hearing that the only reason HCQ isn’t being used is because of some kind of conspiracy by Big Pharma, or oppression by those with TDS, it is easy to rationalize saving a friend or family member’s life, even if it means committing a misdemeanor.
re: “because of some kind of conspiracy by Big Pharma”
Persons of that sort of persuasion are not entirely rational IMO; Recall the adage: Conspiracy theories are the favored tools of the weak-minded.(Attributable to one Vic LaRoca, now SK)
“In the case of COVID-19, the side effects of HCQ treatment are not fully known…..”
[snip] He’s been brainwashed by the deep state zeitgeist. They are pretending to forget everything they knew of three generations of medicine just in the last three months. As we have seen , the writer behind this thread took 3 weeks supply in 3 days. And he didn’t even have a heart attack or anything.
Hi Sendergreen..
No one else seems to have responded so here goes..
A) Do not know for certain whether I have had Covid, cos here in the UK we cannot get tested until very ill. (too late for a lot of people).
B) I came into contact with a guy from Madrid 30 days ago. After passing some papers to me he stated that he had not quarantined and had got back from Madrid 2 days previously. I was very annoyed by him, as I am 76 years old.
I was concerned and 3 days later my temperature went above 37.8C up to 38.6C.
Decided I probably had been affected.
Went into isolation.
Had always drunk Whisky and Dry. Never G &T’s.
Decided I had nothing to lose as knew that Tonic Water contained quinine and I was aware that China and other countries were buying up supplies.
Added ginger (drove off all the horrible CO2) and a little lemon juice to supply a better taste.
4 hrs later my temperature had dropped to 38.1C. Another drink….
Net morning I was back to my normal 36.6C. This was at day 4.
I have continued with a tipple each day and have had no real problems although I did start a bit of a cough at day 12.
My wife who has the immune system of an Ox has had no symptoms but also started a slight cough (unknown for her) after day 13. (ie 1 day behind me). I found even walking to be a tough exercise until a few days ago.
I do not know yet whether I did contract it.
My recovery from whatever I had has been fantastic.
My advice – take it – it can do no harm and will at least speed up your recovery.
Thanks much Dave. I’m already 64 in the U.K, won’t be 64 here in Ontario Canada for another 3 and 1/2 hours.
I’m having 1-2 cans (355ml) of Tonic Water a day. All I had so far was one early morning scare. I woke up with the back of my neck feeling hot, and some slight pain. Thought oh-oh. I passed one of my daughters holding my breath on the stairs. She said “Dad you got one ripping sunburn on the back of your neck”. Forgot that I’d been out on the first sunny day in weeks here. It was only 40°F (4°C ?) outside so I didn’t notice I was UV’ing in the grocery line-ups (queue). I’ve never been relieved to have a sunburn before.
Zinc supplements have been touted as a treatment or prevention of coronaviral disease.
This comment is not about subjects that have a zinc deficiency that actually need supplementation.
In mammals the immune response to infectious, mainly bacterial disease, is to increase temperature, so run a fever,shut down, so curl up and sleep and strip zinc from the circulation. Zinc is used as a substrate by bacteria so they can grow fast.
With coronavirus, in the mouse, so not man, a zinc metallo enzyme aids the entry of coronavirus into the cell being infected.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28148786
So for the normal mouse, it would not be a good idea to supplement with zinc.
Perhaps ‘of mice and of men?’
Thank you, Willis
Amazing post
Very informative and also entertaining
I grew up with malaria but not as bad as your experiences but I can’t really remember the details as well as you do.
Failed to say that I have added a Zinc supplement from day 5.
Interesting to see whether
1) I have had it?
2) Have I developed Antibodies?
Has my ‘medication’ worked or was I lucky and had a mild version of the Virus?
Anecdotal evidence, but it is creating some deliciously funny political angst! Democrat Michigan State Representative Karen Whitsett contracted the Chinese virus and became very ill. After hearing President Trump speak favorably about hydroxychloroquine, she convinced a MI doctor to prescribe it for her, even though the democrat governor of MI had ‘banned’ its use because ‘orange man bad’. Rep. Whitsett made a rapid recovery and has publicly credited President Trump for advocating for the drug and ‘saving her life’. As Ms. Whitsett is a ethnic democrat female, her testimony has left the TDS afflicted rock throwers in a bottled up foment of impotent frustration. The links below provide an interview story in the Detroit Free Press and a video interview with Laura Ingram.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/04/06/democrat-karen-whitsett-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-trump/2955430001/
https://youtu.be/Ql3LJP7OP_s
Quoting another poster on FR:
“Better to be anecdotally alive than scientifically dead!”
-etcb
Thank you. That one made my otherwise dreary day!
I’m an hours drive from Detroit and I have to give the lady an “eyes right” salute for her bravery. The modern Democrat Party is resoundingly socialist, and will not treat her well from this moment on.
I saw that and it is nice to see someone honest about it. Kudos to the lady!
We have some information of whether hydro-chloroquine works for covid19. How useful this information is or how reliable this information is we don’t really know. But it is information non the less. Some doctors will prescribe it based on this imperfect information and some won’t. It is a matter of a doctor’s individual judgement.
If I get covid, I will find a doctor to prescribe it. That doesn’t mean it works, but based on my assessment of the risk reward trade off I’ll take it.
When the explorer Jacques Cartier was exploring Canada in 1535 and his crew began to suffer from scurvy with 25 dying from it and the rest weak with their teeth following out, he was told by the Indians to boil pine needles and drink the soup. Well it worked. I doubt the Indians had done any double blind studies. They knew it worked from experience and generations had passed down the cure. Only much later did we find out pine needles are rich in vitamin C.
SteveK
You said, “Some doctors will prescribe it based on this imperfect information and some won’t.” Yes, the last news item I read on this indicated that about 30% of physicians are using HCQ in their treatment protocol. That is not exactly a resounding endorsement of the efficacy as assessed by clinicians.
In my jurisdiction the Government has laid out the threat to go after the medical licence of docs who prescribe it. Part media hype, part control issues. Like the bylaw officer here who wrote up an $880 ticket for a guy walking his dog in an empty park.
Why would this guy let the bylaw cop get closer than 6 feet and take a ticket covered in the Chi Com V?
RusselDyer replied:
” Why would this guy let the bylaw cop get closer than 6 feet and take a ticket covered in the Chi Com V? ”
My guess is that the guy only had some lapdog the size of a nerf football, with a vestigial jaw. : )
If you want to know more about COVID-19 and Hydroxychloroquine check out the youtube sites of “MedCram” (Dr. Seheult), “Weightless4life” (Dr. Bon Truang), “Dr. Eric Berg DC” and look up Dr. Zelenko from a community in New York State.
Dr. Seheult has many short but informative videos on many aspects of COVID-19. He is an ER doctor that deals with COVID-19 patients regularly and uses hydroxychloroquine with Zinc and Z-Pack with his patients.
Dr. Bon Truang is a medical doctor that uses hydroxychloroquine with Zinc and Z-Pack with his patients. He has many videos about COVID-19 and its effects and treatments. He also has a video dealing with how to treat diabetics on certain drugs. He has videos covering a few patients and their individual cases.
Dr. Eric Berg DC has many videos that discuss COVID-19.
Dr. Vladimir Zelenko has treated over 600 people in his community for COVID-19 using hydroxychloroquine with Zinc and Z-Pack. Some of his patients that were young and healthy were not treated with hydroxychloroquine because they could recover on their own. They were monitored by phone daily to be sure that they didn’t get worse. He believes in keeping people out of the hospital by treating early. Anybody that had any of the risky health conditions were automatically put on hydroxychloroquine with Zinc and Z-Pack and monitored.
All of them have found that early treatment is important for survival.
Link to Medcram video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7F1cnWup9M
In Vietnam, they gave us chloroquine as big orange horse pills. Wife got the same years later on a deployment to Honduras. Only side effect that I felt, and others experienced it too was it disrupted your GI tract. However, knew guys in our unit who didn’t take them and they ended up with malaria, which is not pleasant at all. Years after that, took a 3 week dive trip to the Solomons and I was also given chloroquine to take as a prophylaxis, only this time the pills were much smaller and white. Didn’t experience the same side effects from those.
“In Vietnam, they gave us chloroquine as big orange horse pills. Wife got the same years later on a deployment to Honduras. Only side effect that I felt, and others experienced it too was it disrupted your GI tract. However, knew guys in our unit who didn’t take them and they ended up with malaria, which is not pleasant at all.”
I got real sick in Vietnam and I’m not sure if I had the Hong Kong flu or if I had malaria.
I took the malaria pills for a while, but they tasted very bad, and I eventually quit taking them.
I don’t recall how my not taking the malaria drug correlates with the illness. I can’t say if it was before or after.
My symptoms were a *very* high fever and I shivered and shook and sweated for close to three days. I didn’t go see a doctor although I was thinking about it on the third day but the fever finally broke and I recovered pretty fast after that.
The illness lasted just a few days and within a week or ten days I was back to normal. I didn’t take any kind of medication while I was sick.
I wouldn’t want to do that again.
A first person experience is very compelling. Thanks Willis.
Perhaps a compromise of sorts can help get things moving.
Only lockdown or ‘herd’ immunity (by surviving covid-19 or vaccination) will work. Apply lockdown to those with fragile health and develop herd immunity in the rest with preventative practices & early aggressive treatment (best bet is hydroxychloroquine) of those testing positive.
I am with you. Get the country back to work!
No. How about treating those who are ‘fragile’ with HCQ and the Z pac as soon as they are diagnosed. If they want to self-quarantine in stead they can.
I am OK with that (I’m in the ‘fragile’ group) but IMO what I recommended should reduce the peak number of hospitalizations and might be acceptable to more politicians. The Z-pak is in case of secondary bacterial infection but might be worth it. As far as I know, it wouldn’t hurt but attending doctor should decide.
Did you read this ?
Drug Ivermectin
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub
And this
https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173
Ivermectin is said to effectively and quickly destroy corona-chan in vitro, supposedly by enhancing ATP responses at P2X4 receptors. Ginsenoside in Panax ginseng does the same thing.
Ginsenosides Act As Positive Modulators of P2X4 Receptors
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6334005/
P2X4 receptors are only expressed on certain cell types. Are they expressed at all on the cell types targeted by SARS-CoV-2?
They are definitely expressed in the lungs, but I think the anti-viral action happens extracellularly. Apparently, Ivermectin and ginsenosides potentiate release of ATP from cells.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/04/chloroquine_may_never_get_the_perfect_study_proving_its_good_use_it_anyway.html
“The reason for the FDA foot-dragging” — he lists three reasons and their counters.
Then, possible reason number four…
There are many in the TDS group who would insist on being in the control group. 🙂
One more study
https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/03/scitranslmed.abb5883
According to Chandler, Introduction to Parasitology, 1930, my edition 1949, a countess returning to Europe from Peru brought with her in 1640 some bark from a cinchona tree, an infusion which had been used by the native Indians to cure an attack of malaria from which she suffered. Its life cycle is a biological wonder, once read a book about how difficult it is to handle. Last I read they are still looking. My son once got a relatively mild case from not taking his medicine, when he got back doctor had a diagnosis problem. Made his own blood slide, sent me a picture, looked just like the book
3 million members of the US military took chloroquine weekly while serving in Vietnam. Lets hope nobody dies of corona virus because they were afraid to take chloroquine because of the lies told about its safety by the Trump hating lefties.
Can you provide me with a citation as to the effects those 3 million test subjects experienced?
Salute!
Ball is in your court, Clyde.
Up to you to show the enormous numbers of terrible, debilitating effects that we Vietnam vets and others in the south Pacific endured.
We who have taken chloroquine or its cousin have testified here that it was no big deal. That’s our story, and we’re sticking to it. If zillions of us had problems, a few would be here with us with their anti-total war stories. ‘course, if they died of the chemical they wouldn’t be here to yell the sky was falling.
Gums sends…
You want to try and isolate one problem out of a group of Vietnam Vets … good luck with that.
Gums
Logically, it is up to the one who made the claim that 3 million users suffered no serious side-effects to provide proof of the claim. That is all I asked for.
I think that the fact that there is a long list of well-known, serious side-effects, including ‘mild’ death, proves that the side-effects occur. In the case of vision problems, I have seen an estimate of about 25% with long-term use. I personally can attest to undesirable short-term side-effects including elevated systolic BP, and weakness in leg muscles, which is one of the known common problems.
Can we be certain that the claims about Agent Orange were the result of the herbicide when everyone exposed was also taking chloroquine? Could they possible interact? Can we rule out PTSD and elevated suicide rates of veterans, after the widespread use in malarial countries, being caused by HCQ when the label on my VA prescription bottle warns to watch for mood changes and thoughts of suicide?
Salute!
Sorry, Clyde if you suffered a few side effects ( if I read your post correctly).
However, I still want to see more evidence of widespread, serious side effects. The VA might have some stats, but seems to me that the alarmists must produce the stats.
Labels on just about every drug advertised on TV today have more warnings about more serious side effects than I have seen for the malaria chemicals.
PTSD for the vets is kinda stretching it, huh? OTOH, there might be an effect if the weedkiller, aka Agent Orange, and malaria chemicals interacted, but haven’t heard of one. They can look at me as patient zero! Not only did I take the pill for a year on first tour, but I flew thru the mist when escorting the Ranch Hands while they sprayed. Lived a few hootches over from them.
Willis and I and EW and others are not claiming that zero of the 2.7 million vets that served in-country had serious side effects. We are claiming that no study has shown a huge number of folks – like even 10 or 15 or 20 percent of us. We are the ideal study group.
Gums sends…
Gums
You said, “We are claiming that no study has shown a huge number of folks…” In other words, it is alright to resort to widespread use of a drug of unproven efficacy because at best it will only kill or injure a small percentage.
If you or other vets who have shown a tolerance to HCQ (when you were young and healthy) want to volunteer, I don’t see a problem. But, someone cannot truly give informed consent to an experimental drug unless they are informed about the possible consequences, and there are many on this blog who claim that there are no serous side-effects. That claim is patently false. The most serious risk from short-term use is elevated BP and arrhythmia. Beyond that, we know little about how HCQ might interact with other drugs given concurrently.
For cripes sake, hydroxychlorquine, azithromycin, and zinc sulfate have been used by Dr. Zelenko in NY state with good results. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SesxgaPnpT6OfCYuaFSwXzDK4cDKMbivoALprcVFj48/preview
Henry Ford Hospital is using it. https://www.michiganradio.org/post/henry-ford-uses-hydroxychloroquine-treat-covid-19-symptoms-says-benefits-outweigh-risks
The CDC recommends it as a treatment option. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-options.html
Eastern Virginia Medical School is using it. https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/departments/marketing__communications/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID_19_Protocol__4_2_2020-revised.pdf
How hard would it be to take 300 people who had symptoms of COVID and put them on the Zelenko protocol, early, and see what happens? We don’t have time to wait for the results of the ongoing double-blind placebo controlled trials.
Early treatment is key, way before mechanical ventilation might be needed. What we really have is a pandemic of utter stupidity, so profound and unbelievable and apparently inept that one would think that the real intent is to panic people so that they beg to have their rights of peaceful assembly taken away.
Thank you, Willis.
It’s like a horror movie. They want everyone to feel helpless until a vaccine comes along and saves everybody.
https://public-cdn.sermo.com/covid19/c8/be4e/4edbd4/dbd4ba4ac5a3b3d9a479f99cc5/wave-i-sermo-covid-19-global-analysis-final.pdf
Have a look on this survey !
(take care about the small lines at bottom of the survey page 25:
Note: data provided is not meant to be the basis of a medical recommendation/treatment plan; if you think you have COVID-19 please follow local protocols and contact a medical professional)
For US where Hydroxychloroquine is widely used
Hydroxychloroquine or Chloroquin: 23% (as most effective therapy)
No treatment (nothing): 51% (as most effective therapy) !