Reposted from Dr. Roy Spencer’s website
October 25th, 2019 by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.
NOTE: I have written on this subject before, but it is important enough that we need to keep thinking about it. It is also related to the forcing-feedback paradigm of climate change, which I usually defend — but which I will here take a skeptical view toward in the context of long-term climate change.

The UN IPCC scientists who write the reports which guide international energy policy on fossil fuel use operate under the assumption that the climate system has a preferred, natural and constant average state which is only deviated from through the meddling of humans. They construct their climate models so that the models do not produce any warming or cooling unless they are forced to through increasing anthropogenic greenhouse gases, aerosols, or volcanic eruptions.
This imposed behavior of their “control runs” is admittedly necessary because various physical processes in the models are not known well enough from observations and first principles, and so the models must be tinkered with until they produce what might be considered to be the “null hypothesis” behavior, which in their worldview means no long-term warming or cooling.
What I’d like to discuss here is NOT whether there are other ‘external’ forcing agents of climate change, such as the sun. That is a valuable discussion, but not what I’m going to address. I’d like to address the question of whether there really is an average state that the climate system is constantly re-adjusting itself toward, even if it is constantly nudged in different directions by the sun.
If there is such a preferred average state, then the forcing-feedback paradigm of climate change is valid. In that system of thought, any departure of the global average temperature from the Nature-preferred state is resisted by radiative “feedback”, that is, changes in the radiative energy balance of the Earth in response to the too-warm or too-cool conditions. Those radiative changes would constantly be pushing the system back to its preferred temperature state.
But what if there isn’t only one preferred state?
I am of the opinion that the F-F paradigm does indeed apply for at least year-to-year fluctuations, because phase space diagrams of the co-variations between temperature and radiative flux look just like what we would expect from a F-F perspective. I touched on this in yesterday’s post.
Where the F-F paradigm might be inapplicable is in the context of long-term climate changes which are the result of internal fluctuations.
Chaos in the Climate System
Everyone agrees that the ocean-atmosphere fluid flows represent a non-linear dynamical system. Such systems, although deterministic (that is, can be described with known physical equations) are difficult to predict the future behavior of because of their sensitive dependence on the current state. This is called “sensitive dependence on initial conditions”, and it is why weather cannot be forecast more than a week or so in advance.
The reason why most climate researchers do not think this is important for climate forecasting is that they are dealing with how the future climate might differ from today’s climate in a time-averaged sense... due not to changes in initial conditions, but in the “boundary conditions”, that is, increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. Humans are slightly changing the rules by which the climate system operates — that is, the estimated ~1-2% change in the rate of cooling of the climate system to outer space as a result of increasing CO2.
There are still chaotic variations in the climate system, which is why any given climate model forced with the same amount of increasing CO2 but initialized with different initial conditions in 1760 will produce a different globally-averaged temperature in, say, 2050 or 2060.
But what if the climate system undergoes its own, substantial chaotic changes on long time scales, say 100 to 1,000 years? The IPCC assumes this does not happen. But the ocean has inherently long time scales — decades to millennia. An unusually large amount of cold bottom water formed at the surface in the Arctic in one century might take hundreds or even thousands of years before it re-emerges at the surface, say in the tropics. This time lag can introduce a wide range of complex behaviors in the climate system, and is capable of producing climate change all by itself.
Even the sun, which we view as a constantly burning ball of gas, produces an 11-year cycle in sunspot activity, and even that cycle changes in strength over hundreds of years. It would seem that every process in nature organizes itself on preferred time scales, with some amount of cyclic behavior.
This chaotic climate change behavior would impact the validity of the forcing-feedback paradigm as well as our ability to determine future climate states and the sensitivity of the climate system to increasing CO2. If the climate system has different, but stable and energy-balanced, states, it could mean that climate change is too complex to predict with any useful level of accuracy.
El Nino / La Nina as an Example of a Chaotic Cycle
Most climate researchers view the warm El Nino and cool La Nina episodes conceptually as departures from an average climate state. But I believe that they are more accurately viewed as a bifurcation in the chaotic climate system. In other words, during Northern Hemisphere winter, there are two different climate states (El Nino or La Nina) that the climate system tends toward. Each has its own relatively stable configuration of Pacific trade winds, sea surface temperature patterns, cloudiness, and global-average temperature.
So, in a sense, El Nino and La Nina are different climate states which Earth has difficulty choosing between each year. One is a globally warm state, the other globally cool. This chaotic “bifurcation” behavior has been described in the context of even extremely simple systems of nonlinear equations, vastly simpler than the equations describing the time-evolving real climate system.
The Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age
Most historical records and temperature proxy evidence point to the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age as real, historical events. I know that most people try to explain these events as the response to some sort of external forcing agent, say indirect solar effects from long-term changes in sunspot activity. This is a natural human tendency… we see a change, and we assume there must be a cause external to the change.
But a nonlinear dynamical system needs no external forcing to experience change. I’m not saying that the MWP and LIA were not externally forced, only that their explanation does not necessarily require external forcing.
There could be internal modes of chaotic fluctuations in the ocean circulation which produce their own stable climate states which differ in global-average temperature by, say, 1 deg. C. One possibility is that they would have slightly different sea surface temperature patterns or oceanic wind speeds, which can cause slightly different average cloud amounts, thus altering the planetary albedo and so the amount of sunlight the climate system has to work with. Or, the precipitation systems produced by the different climate states could have slightly different precipitation efficiencies, which then would affect the average amount of the atmosphere’s main greenhouse gas, water vapor.
Chaotic Climate Change and the Forcing-Feedback Paradigm
If the climate system has multiple, stable climate states, each with its own set of slightly different energy flows that still produce global energy balance and relatively constant temperatures (whether warmer or cooler), then the “forcing-feedback framework” (FFF, as my Australian friend Christopher Game likes to call it) would not apply to these climate variations, because there is no normal, average climate state to which ‘feedback’ is constantly nudging the system back toward.
Part of the reason for this post is the ongoing discussion I have had over the years with Christopher on this issue, and I want him to know that I am not totally deaf to his concerns about the FFF. As I described yesterday, we do see forcing-feedback type behavior in short-term climate fluctuations, but I agree that the FFF might not be applicable to longer-term fluctuations. In this sense, I believe Christopher Game is correct.
The UN IPCC Will Not Address This Issue
It is clear that the UN IPCC, by its very charter, is primarily focused on human-caused climate change. As a result of political influence (related to the desire of governmental regulation over the private sector) it will never seriously address the possibility that long-term climate change might be part of nature. Only those scientists who are supportive of this anthropocentric climate view are allowed to play in the IPCC sandbox.
Substantial chaos in the climate system injects a large component of uncertainty into all predictions of future climate change, including our ability to determine climate sensitivity. It reduces the practical value of climate modelling efforts, which cost billions of dollars and support the careers of thousands of researchers. While I am generally supportive of climate modeling, I am appropriately skeptical of the ability of current climate models to provide enough confidence to make high-cost energy policy decisions.
Yes. Its glacial without the lithospheric effects. Also where the climate spends most of its time.
The only thing that varies that is the 100Ka, was 41Ka, interglacial warming events of some +8 degrees average SST (was nearer 4 degs for the 4!Ka interglacials). This is flat lined after a short 7Ka of warming by the natural feedbacks from oceanic evaporation, until the surplus heat from within reduces then dissipates, the short warm interglacial with its couple of degrees solar driven ups and downs ends, as will probably civilisation as nation states battle to move to a survivable climate and move ports 130metres downhill, and the stable equilibrium global SST returns slowly to glacial levels, until the next interglacial event recurs, as a repeat result of the varying combination of all three main milankovitch cycles’ gravitational effects on the oceanic crust. Solid gravitational tides return to 1 metre from 2+metres per day.
Eventually the amount of energy available from the 100Ka eccentricity effect will be inadequate to reach the flat line interglacial max point where water vapour seriously intervenes, just as the 41Ka events ran out of adequate impulse energy 1 Million years ago, and now can only vary the effect of the 100Ka cycle. Not yet.
I have described how this can happen, by the large variation in the average output of the 100,000 or so large submarine volcanoes that is observed and known to occur at the three main Milankovitch gravitational variability cycles of eccentricity, obliquity and precession. The change in emissions at these times is enough to warm the oceans the required amount by direct volcanic heat of 6×10^25 Joules in 7Ka, and then regresses to the more normal stable levels of warming at around 1×10^22 Joules pa before returning to the stable/quiescent glacial phase of the cycle.. Paper with all the description and quantification below. Nice simple deterministic stuff using real physics. No models, other than deterministic ones.
Without this actual, not modelled, volcanic effect of ocean submarine volcanicity every interglacial, massively underestimated in amount and variability by geological and climate science “consensus”, the natural stable state from external effects is ice age glacial. Simples! Next question please.
http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3259379
Here’s one.
All interglacials following the MPR (last million years) have happened exactly 6500 years after a peak in the obliquity Milankovitch cycle:
This was published by Javier at Climate Etc.
This is understandable as obliquity is the Milankovitch cycle with the biggest effect on insolation. The lag of 6500 years is important, this is the length of time it takes for a changed insolation to significantly change ocean temperatures.
So the above graph makes sense of orbitally driven insolation change drives the glacial-interglacial cycle. But if glacial termination was driven by volcanoes, how could the 6500 year lag be explained?
Volcanoes are not a driver of climate.
Quoting from the head posting,
“If the climate system has multiple, stable climate states, each with its own set of slightly different energy flows that still produce global energy balance and relatively constant temperatures (whether warmer or cooler), then the “forcing-feedback framework” (FFF, as my Australian friend Christopher Game likes to call it) would not apply to these climate variations, because there is no normal, average climate state to which ‘feedback’ is constantly nudging the system back toward.”
Now, granted that the earth’s climate (including all that danged “weather”) is *very* complicated, I still wonder if the above is going in the direction of complicating things just a bit *too* much? At any given time, we are going to be very far from knowing where on earth to measure a ‘true’ average temperature. Plus, as far as *time* is concerned, who knows how far we might currently be lagging ‘behind’ (versus whatever the overall solar power flow is tending to ‘set’ as an average temperature over time)? There can be lots of fluctuational possibilities, I’m sure, including ones that ‘plateau’ at a somewhat lower temperature (i.e., ice ages). However, is that really telling us that there simply *is* no one overall normative temperature for the whole planet? It seems to be almost a matter of common sense that there should be a normative average temperature over some long period of time, even if it is nearly impossible to tell for sure which fluctuation or variation we are going through relative to the ‘current normal’, this exact temperature being one that we can only guess at?
For comparison, just think of the old concern over “the earth might become like Venus”. Venus has a different distance from the Sun, a different atmosphere, different overall solar flow and temperature balance. The thick atmosphere there has quite the lapse rate with height too, with the upper layers cool enough that it is harder to get rid of heat than you might think from the hot surface, etc. Does anyone want to say that the Earth doesn’t have a different ‘normal’ average temperature than Venus?
Alarmists still roll out that “Earth will be like Venus due to CO2” rubbish all the time. They are told Earth has CO2 in the atmosphere and so too Venus (And Mars) and they equate CO2 with “heat”. Forget Mars, it’s too cold. Earth is cool Venus, due to CO2, is hot. And they cannot be persuaded to think otherwise. CO2 on Earth is ~410ppm/v, or 0.041%, is all they need to believe Earth will become a Venus unless we suck all CO2 out of the air. Venus is ~95% CO2. The main reason Venus is hot at the surface is, primarily, due to the mass of the atmosphere which is about 90 times that of the Earth.
Ideal gas laws at work.
Venus has the same ‘normal’ temperature as Earth at the same pressure within its atmosphere subject only to an adjustment for distance from the sun. That has been known for a long time but the implication has been ignored.
Normal for Venus. Still hot due to the ideal gas laws and pressure. Distance to the sun not so much.
Still hot at the surface for the reason you state but the same as Earth at the same pressure as Earth higher up in the atmosphere. The only adjustment required is for distance from sun.
Similar for other planets with atmospheres too.
The alarmists don’t get that, and that was my point. Venus is not hot at the surface (Which is where the “worry” is) BECAUSE of CO2. It is hot BECAUSE of PRESSURE. Alarmists claim increasing CO2 on Earth will lead to a Venus Earth (Runaway global warming). The physics is well understood and will never happen on Earth no matter the concentration of CO2 (All O2 breathers will be long dead by then).
Stephen
Are you referring to Nikolov and Zeller’s observed relationship?
That is, of Ts / Tna with pressure
(Surface temperature / temp with no atmosphere)
They make use of the relationship but it predates their work.
“As I described yesterday, we do see forcing-feedback type behavior in short-term climate fluctuations, but I agree that the FFF might not be applicable to longer-term fluctuations. In this sense, I believe Christopher Game is correct.”
El Nino conditions increase during centennial solar minima, because increased negative NAO slows the trade winds. The warmer parts of the MWP for Northern Europe had a dominance of La Nina conditions. The Holocene Optimum had a dearth of El Nino conditions for thousands of years, while glacial maximum states have near permanent El Nino conditions.
“Everyone agrees that the ocean-atmosphere fluid flows represent a non-linear dynamical system. Such systems, although deterministic (that is, can be described with known physical equations) are difficult to predict the future behavior of because of their sensitive dependence on the current state. This is called “sensitive dependence on initial conditions”, and it is why weather cannot be forecast more than a week or so in advance.”
The greatest heatwaves and cold-waves can be predicted for thousands of years ahead. Weather drives climate change.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/major-heat-cold-waves-driven-key-heliocentric-alignments-ulric-lyons/