Guest essay by Eric Worrall
China is demanding that the USA and other developed countries give China large sums of cash, because the USA owes China and other developing countries for historical US greenhouse gas contributions.
China is also demanding lenient “developing country” accounting oversight over how those climate cash transfers from the USA to China are spent.
China demands developed countries ‘pay their debts’ on climate change
Key sticking point at UN negotiations is how countries should account for their greenhouse gas emissions
China called on rich countries to “pay their debts” on climate change at global talks on Thursday, criticising developed countries for not doing enough to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and provide finance to help poor countries do the same.
The trenchant intervention by Xie Zhenhua, the minister who leads the Chinese delegation and a veteran of the UN climate negotiations, came as China faced increasing pressure to shift its stance on some of the key rules required to implement the 2015 Paris agreement.
He told a small group of journalists: “Developing countries are not comfortable or happy. [We need to] see if developed countries have honoured their commitments. Still some countries have not started their mitigation efforts, or provided financial support [to poor nations]. We strongly urge them to pay up on their debts.”
…
Developed countries prefer strict standards but developing countries have historically been allowed some leeway, in recognition that their governance structures and capabilities may lag behind.
But the EU and other developed countries are concerned that large rapidly developing economies such as China are not agreeing to adequate transparency in accounting for their emissions.
Xie said the talks were “deadlocked”, but maintained that China should continue to be treated as a developing country, and that developing countries should have flexibility over transparency rules.
…
The situation is even more ridiculous when you consider that the US Federal Government is in severe deficit, they borrow billions of dollars every year. Much of that borrowed cash comes from China.
So the Chinese negotiator Xie Zhenhua’s position amounts to a demand that the USA borrow money from China, gift the principle back to China, then repay the loan that they just gifted to China.
My question – would President Obama have agreed the Chinese demand?
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Nothing like the world’s largest emitter of CO2 demanding money to continue increasing their CO2 emissions because, climate change.
….and less transparency in reporting
I didn’t think you could get less transparency in China’s reporting
Simple solution…USA prints up a boatload of Yuan and pays China with it
Exactly!
What debt is it and what for?
For past emissions?
They currently emit for more than we ever did, ever, and their emissions are climbing steeply.
This position statement from China is warmista jackassery at it’s finest.
Self-serving and bereft of facts.
How has Chinese rice yields reacted to the increased CO2 from USAs fossil fuel usage. I would imagine that since the start of the industrial revolution per acre/hectare yield of rice in China has increased dramatically from our atmospheric fertilization efforts
Tell China to “sit on it and spin”. Not one dime to that den of thieves. Do not do what Obama would have done…he would have given away the store.
It seems appropriate for the US to calculate the value of all Chinese cyber theft, including our nuclear weapon design and F-35 design, and submit the bill to China. I think we will be way ahead.
I stopped thinking of China as “Developing” when they started exploring the moon with their “Jade Rabbit” vehicle.
Excellent point. Once a developing country has developed technology capable of reaching another world they are developed
China likely stole most of the technology. They develop very little of their own technology.
Any carbon debt that could be imagined has been paid so many times over by technology transfer, opening our universities to Chinese citizens, opening markets, showing the way in terms of economic structure…
[China] as a ‘developing’ country? One of the largest militaries in the world, spacefaring, nuclear powerplants and bombs, ICBMs, stealth fighters, aircraft carriers, one of the largest economies, colonizing… hey! Maybe the US should be asking for ‘developing country’ status, so we can demand money from the Europeans, Africans, Chinese, and Maldovians.
Well, technically every single country is “developing”. I don’t think that can ever stop.
While this argument is normally crafted around historical emissions of developed countries, it sidesteps the fact that all these virtue signalling Americans and Europeans are complicit in the everyday shifting of CURRENT emissions to China as a direct byproduct of NIMBY attitudes in policy, regulations, lawsuits, and consumer purchasing. The funds transfer is already taking place along with this massive emissions transfer in current activities.
Just the Western capitalist democracies killing themselves over the long term. Only President Trump is attempting to stem the destructive past practices.
“Yes we can” lead to nothing. MAGA, on the other hand is an actual policy.
I think their response may not be nuanced. For instance, they have turned up the heat on Canada over the arrest of a Chinese executive for likely extradition to the US. That’s unfortunate. I think they may need all the friends they can get.
‘lead’ should be ‘led’
No worries, a few spelling errors are actually appropriate when discussing Trump:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-perfect-cover-letter-for-aspiring-white-house-chiefs-of-staff/2018/12/10/7ad735f0-fcbe-11e8-ad40-cdfd0e0dd65a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2e78bd0864a0
While this argument is normally crafted around….per capita
The loons that say that have no idea how many people are in this world
While this argument is normally crafted around historical emissions of developed countries, it sidesteps the fact that CO2 is not pollution! CO2 is the gas all humans exhale at 20,000ppmv with every breath. CO2 is the gas essential for all plant growth on the planet.
Focus on those undeniable paramount facts and all else becomes laughably trivial.
+
Any new carbon tax should be on imports from China.
Solar panels
Made in China…….
This is a bogus demand. The data says CO2 has little if any effect on climate. Temperature is now about what it was in 2002. CO2 has increased since 2002 by 40% of the increase 1800 to 2002.
By similarity, none of the other ghg (except water vapor) have any significant effect on climate either.
It’s a shakedown. They know it’s bogus.
I have a grudging admiration for such chutzpah.
It shows the Chinese think we’re stupid.
Related – http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=378609 or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo
They have a word for white liberal virtue signalling SJWs
I was trying to remember that term. Very appropriate for certain watermelons.
We ARE stupid, letting our leaders agree to this shakedown in the first place.
[China] as a ‘developing’ country? One of the largest militaries in the world, spacefaring, nuclear powerplants and bombs, ICBMs, stealth fighters, aircraft carriers, one of the largest economies, colonizing… hey! Maybe the US should be asking for ‘developing country’ status, so we can demand money from the Europeans, Africans, Chinese, and Maldovians.
Wow. Did that get put in the wrong place.
Don’t forget, we’d want money from the tuvaluans as well
The trouble is that all the evidence shows we are.
We are ,our( politicians) that is. And no Surprise China wants to milk that stupid cow.
They have a very sound basis for thinking we are stupid. We have behaved like complete morons towards China for the last 30 years. We have been all too happy to ship our productive capacity to China in return for an unremitting supply of plastic crap, adulterated foods, and cadmium fake jewelry.
It shows the Chinese think we’re stupid.
They certainly have reason to think that based on how past US administrations have dealt with them
The Chinese think everyone else is stupid, that has always been their opinion of “barbarians” and it ain’t changed. The lowliest peasant squatting in a paddy in Guangxi or herding goats in Quinghai considers themselves the moral and intellectual superior to anyone who has the bad grace to be born anywhere outside the Chung kwoh and that will never change.
The correct response of environmentalists to China’s GHG emissions is to totally stop buying Chinese goods and services, including wind and solar equipment. The GHG emissions increases in China from such purchases are not included in the GHG reductions calculated for these instillations in the US. Therefore, I would propose that there is no net global GHG reduction for the billions spent on Chinese equipment. We should then propose to China that what we have given them in trade value for GHG “mitigation” devices, solar panels and wind turbines, constitutes a transfer of wealth as these devices essentially have not real value in the US therefore the funds were a gift to China for essentially nothing in return.
Twisted logic, but no worse than the same type of logic used by proponents of wind and solar.
Your ‘twisted logic’ is unfortunately close to being right on.
Left out of ALL the analysis of installing stupid solar and stupid wind in the West is the resulting transfer of western currency to China for the equipment. How much of the ‘price of solar dropping fast’ is due to sourcing from China? Pretty much all I would say. Further, what happens to that western currency? Well part of it goes to making loans to African countries that want to build a cheap coal fired electric plant, the loan courtesy of China with the stipulation that Chinese equipment and labor be used in the installation.
And really, it is just a little fishy that the old Chinese idea that you are responsible for 7 generations of your ancestors debts is pretty much the same as ‘climate debt’.
Screw it I say.
“My question – would President Obama have agreed the Chinese demand?”
Obama was one of the weakest Presidents we have ever seen regarding international relations. His ideological convictions about globalization superseded logic and the interests of Americans and he would have surely cow towed to the Chinese, especially if the excuse was climate change.
Good question. It depends on how much donations came in to the Obama Foundation, Party election accounts, and other pet project accounts.
You’re right, co2. Obama would have given China as much of other people’s money as he could steal and made China his poster boy for climate change. China doesn’t know our President well enough or they wouldn’t expect Trump to fall for this shakedown. Perhaps they’re counting on their communist partners in the House to do it…
You’re missing the wider aim Marlene, they don’t expect to get any money, they know they’ll never get that.
They only want to make this a global polarization focus point, of ‘Rich’ against ‘Poor’, Socialists (Commie-light) against Capitalism (see IPCC related comfort to the enemy), with Beijing amping the divisions with nonsense and the ‘championing’ socialism with Chinese characteristics (Communism), against the evils and greed of Capitalism, with USA characteristics.
I see this as one of the opening shots in a wider global polarization effort to push communism on to the rest of the world (to save them with debt) in order to hinder Western influence and access.
It’s got absolutely nothing to do with AGW.
“he would have surely cow towed to the Chinese”
Wikipedia:
“Kowtow, which is borrowed from kau tau in Cantonese (koutou in Mandarin Chinese), is the act of deep respect shown by prostration, that is, kneeling and bowing so low as to have one’s head touching the ground.”
He would have done it and said: “Thank you, Sir. May I have another”.
“China demands developed countries ‘pay their debts’ on climate change”
LOL, and what will the developing countries do with their cash? They will use it to help pay off their debts, allowing them to borrow more money, which will speed their economic development, which will lead to an increase of … CO2.
My question – would President Obama have agreed the Chinese demand?
You may have meant to say, “have agreed to” and it seems to me there’s every reason to believe that pallets of cash could have suddenly appeared on the tarmac of some Chinese airport in the deep night had President Obama been afforded the opportunity to participate.
Obama gave $1 billion in two tranches to the Green Climate Fund. This was done without Congressional Appropriation of such funds and is technically a violation of the Anti-Deficiency Act.
He got around that by saying it was from excess State Department funds. At the time, I suggested we cut the State Department budget if they had cash laying around.
Obama gave the Mad Mullahs of Iran $1.4 billion in cash as part of his Iran nuclear deal.
A good question to ask is: Where did that cash come from?
Claim is that it was seized, impounded, or something, but was their money. Could have been money they paid for US planes that were not delivered. Something about a disposed Shah and a revolution. Should be easy to find the specifics of the money.
Question is, why was it delivered in the manner it was?
The once popular term for the source of such largess was “Obama’s Stasch.”
A good question to ask is: Where did that cash come from?
Tom:
I might have something of an answer for you. Check out the following document penned by Julia Frifield, Assistant Secretary of Legal Affairs, to Mike Pompeo, then Kansas Congressman. Pompeo has written to the Obama administration asking for answers regarding from where the money came.
http://www.thestupidithurts.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Ransom-Iran-Kerry-Reply.pdf
Of particular note (at least in my view), is the admission by Ms. Frifield (see p. 3, par. 3) that at the time the United States had pending unresolved counterclaims against Iran that could have been settled from the very fund the Obama administration used to fund the aforementioned payments.
Meaning, of course, that the claim that “it was their money” by those who supported the payments was untrue, at least in the sense that because there were also unresolved claims by the U.S. pending against Iran, those claims could’ve been settled first before these payments were made, thereby adjusting the amount due.
Naturally (or so it seems to me), that wasn’t the intent at all. The intent was to give $1.7B to a terrorist nation for whatever nefarious purpose (I’m not sure anything but speculation can be asserted with confidence) the then sitting President thought it wise.
”My question – would President Obama have agreed the Chinese demand?
You may have meant to say, “have agreed to” and it seems to me there’s every reason to believe that pallets of cash could have suddenly appeared on the tarmac of some Chinese airport in the deep night had President Obama been afforded the opportunity to participate.”
It is ”dead of night”..
It’s not the US’s fault that China chose to run down an ecnomic black hole called communism. Something which resulted in China’s massive population growth. THat will have far great impact on CO2 than America’s development, much of which the World benefits from.
From the article: “He told a small group of journalists: “Developing countries are not comfortable or happy. [We need to] see if developed countries have honoured their commitments.”
What’s this “we” stuff? Got a mouse in your pocket? Do you think you are fooling anyone?
We never committed to this insanity. Solly.
What’s Mandarin for FOAD? The polite version, of course…
Put it where the sun don’t shine.
把它放在太阳不发光的地方
‘Get stu…d’ in mandarin?
屁股
The New Jersey tough guy version: Hey China; got your climate contribution – right here.
(said while grabbing one’s crotch)
Who is surprised? You set up a stupid wrong system with no basis in reality and you are surprised when those who live permanently in left field see an opportunity in your pathetic virtue signalling? China can go sling their hook as far as I am concered but I want those responsible in the Obama admin in the dock pretty damned quick!
To the Chinese representative:
Wow, such chutzpah!
I extend my hand to you, though my fingers 1,2 and 3,4 are fully flexed.
Oops! Should have stated fingers 1,2 and 4,5 are fully flexed.
This would be like illegal immigrants demanding cash payment for not allowing them in the country.
In fact, they have!
https://www.newsweek.com/migrant-caravan-let-us-or-give-each-us-50000-turn-around-and-go-home-1255043?fbclid=IwAR2vCil1AcdqJeXxhXXvsUjKpUX6gvQ2_FkF59R7g9irkvGJy8RUW7Dbhpw
Suppose that the objective were to INCREASE the emissions of CO2, how would you achieve that? Simple, just give money to developing countries so that their carbon footprint per person can rise to the levels enjoyed in the developed countries.
This is not even snake-oil for a genuine ailment, it is just wealth transfer, and politics by proxy.
When shrimps learn to whistle. When pigs learn to fly. But, what can it hurt them to demand? As in golf, “Never up, never in.” Roll the ball, it just might find the hole.
No greater evidence that China is a communist country. They want to redistribute our earnings to them because they want it and don’t want to have to work for it themselves. Of Course!
We should definitely pay China for CO2 emissions related deaths. As long as they agree for killing 100,000 North Americans per year with fentanyl.
They should be expecting their first check on the 5th of Hellfreezing Over in 20,000,000 CE.
We are not in severe deficit we are in severe DEBT.
Severe Deficit is planning to overspend by a quarter billion.
Severe Debt is already being 20 Trillion Dollars in DEBT with another 70 TRillion in Unfunded non-discretionary spending coming due with Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in the course of the next 20 years
Severe Delusion is continuing to overspend (deficit) when we are obligated to pay back an amount of money (debt) that we won’t be able to retire in 5 generations if we stop discretionary spending today.
BIll
if you really want to make Yourself depressed, here is the American debt clock in real time
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Your country would be foolish in the extreme to pay out vast sums of money it doesn’t have in order to mend something that probably isn’t even broken.
Tonyb: You’re not wrong. But I’ll bet half the country’s all for it.
The estimation of future debt is in part dependent on price. The question then is whether price is commensurate with cost and value. There is evidence that inflated costs are first-order forcings of decadal resets (e.g. recessions).
Social Security is a public smoothing function that is contributory and has a fixed outlay, and can be reasonably forecast, therefore managed. Medicare is contributory, but because of native dysfunctional orientations and behaviors, will be underfunded. Medicaid is a non-contributory, wholly public institution, and will suffer the same problems as Medicare, but with different causes. Then there are the private smoothing functions (e.g. family, charity, insurance).
Arbitrage is a class of smoothing function. Chinese labor and environmental practices have subsidized global inflation and expectation.
Technological development is another smoothing function, which we have developed a habit of outsourcing for short-term returns.
I should say: there is evidence that inflated prices are first-order forcings…
Beijing is going broke and the Communists leaders got into the good life.
Stock positions etc.
Their stock market is in serious decline and there was a headline a couple of weeks ago.
About the apartment vacancy rate up to 22%—which means 50 million empty apartments.
Every day, I wake up thinking, I can’t possibly be more outraged than the day before.
Every day I’m wrong.
I don’t think I’ve ever looked forward to a New Year less in my life.
feeling similarly and so are a lot of people I know.
the last financial crash happened when people werent close to war mode
now?
the next global crash is likely to be followed by wars..theyre good for the economy..(not)
once you could buy land go bush and be left alone
not now, eyes in sky and far more bureacracy following us all.
as to the ? wwohbummer have done?
sold you off like he did before and prob offer your daughters to make up the shortfall as well
“My question – would President Obama have agreed [to] the Chinese demand?”
You know he would. He embezzled $1 billion of taxpayer money to feed the Green Climate Fund (at least $500 million of which was originally appropriated by congress to go towards fighting deadly diseases such as the Zika virus). He sent pallets of cash to Iran. He would definitely have no problem giving away taxpayer money to China.
Ahhhh, this is grand! It’s complete stupidity like this that will help dismantle the madness. I sure hope the MSM actually plays this up so the taxpayer can see the tomfoolery that is going on. The Yellow Jackets won’t be far behind if the answer isn’t a firm no.
China should take a trip to the middle east and practice pounding sand.
they don’t even need to go that far, the Gobi desert is available for their sand pounding.