On the futility of climate models: 'simplistic nonsense'

Guest essay by Leo Smith – elevated from a comment left on WUWT on January 6, 2015 at 2:11 am (h/t to dbs)

edsel-fine-engineering

As an engineer, my first experience of a computer model taught me nearly all I needed to know about models.

I was tasked with designing a high voltage video amplifier to drive a military heads up display featuring a CRT.

Some people suggested I make use of the acoustic coupler to input my design and optimise it with one of the circuit modelling programs they had devised. The results were encouraging, so I built it. The circuit itself was a dismal failure.

Investigation revealed the reason instantly: the model parametrised parasitic capacitance into a simple single value: the reality of semiconductors is that the capacitance varies with applied voltage – an effect made use of in every radio today as the ‘varicap diode’. for small signals this is an acceptable compromise. Over large voltage swings the effect is massively non linear. The model was simply inadequate.

Most of engineering is to design things so that small unpredictable effects are swamped by large predictable ones. Any stable design has to work like that. If it doesn’t, it ain’t stable. Or reproducible.

That leads to a direct piece of engineering wisdom: If a system is not dominated by a few major feedback factors, it ain’t stable. And if it has a regions of stability then perturbing it outside those regions will result in gross instability, and the system will be short lived.

Climate has been in real terms amazingly stable. For millions of years. It has maintained an average of about 282 degrees absolute +- about 5 degrees since forever.

So called ‘Climate science’ relies on net positive feedback to create alarmist views – and that positive feedback is nothing to do with CO2 allegedly: on the contrary it is a temperature change amplifier pure and simple.

If such a feedback existed, any driver of temperature, from a minor change in the suns output, to a volcanic eruption must inevitably trigger massive temperature changes. But it simply never has. Or we wouldn’t be here to spout such nonsense.

With all simple known factors taken care of the basic IPCC style equation boils down to:

∆T = λ.k.log( ∆CO2)

where lambda (λ) is the climate sensitivity that expresses the presupposed propensity of any warming directly attributable to CO2 (k.log(CO2)) radiative forcing and its resultant direct temperature change to be amplified by some unexplained and unknown feedback factor, which is adjusted to match such late 20th century warming as was reasonably certain.

Everyone argues over the value of lambda. No one is arguing over the actual shape of the equation itself.

And that is the sleight of hand of the IPCC…arguments about climate sensitivity are pure misdirection away from the actuality of what is going on.

Consider an alternative:

∆T = k.log( ∆CO2) + f(∆x)

In terms of matching late 20th century warming, this is equally as good, and relies merely on introducing another unknown to replace the unknown lambda, this time not as a multiplier of CO2 driven change, but as a completely independent variable.

Philosophically both have one unknown. There is little to choose between them.

Scientifically both the rise and the pause together fit the second model far better.

Worse, consider some possible mechanisms for what X might be….

∆T = k.log( ∆CO2) + f(∆T).

Let’s say that f(∆T) is in fact a function whose current value depends on non linear and time delayed values of past temperature. So it does indeed represent temperature feedback to create new temperatures!

This is quite close to the IPCC model, but with one important proviso. The overall long term feedback MUST be negative, otherwise temperatures would be massively unstable over geological timescales.

BUT we know that short term fluctuatons of quite significant values – ice ages and warm periods – are also in evidence.

Can long term negative feedback create shorter term instability? Hell yes! If you have enough terms and some time delay, it’s a piece of piss.

The climate has all the elements needed. temperature, and water. Water vapour (greenhouse gas: acts to increase temperatures) clouds (reduce daytime temps, increase night time temps) and ice (massive albedo modifiers: act to reduce temperatures) are functions of sea and air temperature, and sea and air temperature are a function via albedo and greenhouse modifiers, of water vapour concentrations. Better yet, latent heat of ice/water represents massive amounts of energy needed to effect a phase transition at a single temperature. Lots of lovely non-linearity there. Plus huge delays of decadal or multidecadal length in terms of ocean current circulations and melting/freezing of ice sheets and permafrost.

Not to mention continental drift, which adds further water cycle variables into the mix.

Or glaciation that causes falling sea levels, thus exposing more land to lower the albedo where the earth is NOT frozen, and glaciation that strips water vapour out of the air reducing cloud albedo in non glaciated areas.

It’s a massive non linear hugely time delayed negative feedback system. And that’s just water and ice. Before we toss in volcanic action, meteor strikes, continental drift. solar variability, and Milankovitch cycles…

The miracle of AGW is that all this has been simply tossed aside, or considered some kind of constant, or a multiplier of the only driver in town, CO2.

When all you know is linear systems analysis everything looks like a linear system perturbed by an external driver.

When the only driver you have come up with is CO2, everything looks like CO2.

Engineers who have done control system theory are not so arrogant. And can recognise in the irregular sawtooth of ice age temperature record a system that looks remarkably like a nasty multiple (negative) feed back time delayed relaxation oscillator.

Oscillators don’t need external inputs to change, they do that entirely within the feedback that comprises them. Just one electron of thermal noise will start them off.

What examination of the temperature record shows is that glaciation is slow. It takes many many thousands of years as the ice increases before the lowest temperatures are reached, but that positive going temperatures are much faster – we are only 10,000 years out of the last one.

The point finally is this: To an engineer, climate science as the IPCC have it is simplistic nonsense. There are far far better models available, to explain climate change based on the complexity of water interactions with temperature. Unfortunately they are far too complex even for the biggest of computers to be much use in simulating climate. And have no political value anyway, since they will essentially say ‘Climate changes irrespective of human activity, over 100 thousand year major cycles, and within that its simply unpredictable noise due to many factors none of which we have any control over’


UPDATE: An additional and clarifying comment has been posted by Leo Smith on January 6, 2015 at 6:32 pm

Look, this post was elevated (without me being aware…) from a blog comment typed in in a hurry. I accept the formula isn’t quite what I meant, but you get the general idea OK?

If I had known it was going to become a post I’d have taken a lot more care over it.

Not used k where it might confuse,. Spotted that delta log is not the same as log delta..

But the main points stand:

(i) The IPCC ‘formula’ fits the data less well than other equally simple formulae with just as many unknowns.

(ii) The IPCC formula is a linear differential equation.

(iii) There is no reason to doubt that large parts of the radiative/convective thermal cycle/balance of climate are non linear.

(iv) There are good historical reasons to suppose that the overall feedback of the climate system is negative, not positive as the IPCC assumes.

(v) given the number of feedback paths and the lags associated with them, there is more than enough scope in the climate for self generated chaotic quasi-periodic fluctuations to be generated even without any external inputs beyond a steady sun.

(vi) Given the likely shape of the overall real climate equation, there is no hope of anything like a realistic forecast ever being obtained with the current generation of computer systems and mathematical techniques. Chaos style equations are amongst the hardest and most intractable problems we have, and indeed there may well be no final answer to climate change beyond a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil and tipping the climate into a new ice age, or a warm period, depending 😉

(vii) A point I didn’t make: a chaotic system is never ‘in balance’, and even its average value has little meaning, because its simply a mathematical oddity – a single point on a range where the system never rests – it merely represents a point between the upper and lower bounds; Worse, is system with multiple attractors, it may not even be anywhere near where the systems orbits fr any length of time.

In short my current thinking says :

– there is no such thing as a normal climate, nor does it have a balance that man has disturbed , or could disturb. Its constantly changing and may go anywhere from ice age to seriously warm over extremely long periods of time. It does this all by itself. There need be no external drivers to move it from one attractor to another or cause it to orbit any given attractor. That climate changes is unarguable, that anything beyond climate itself is causing it, is deeply doubtful. That CO2 has a major effect is, on the data, as absurd as claiming that CO2 has no effect at all.

What we are looking at here is very clever misdirection cooked up for economic and political motives: It suited many peoples books to paint CO2 emissions as a scary pollutant, and a chance temporary correlation of rising temperatures and CO2 was combined in a linear way that any third rate scientist could understand to present a plausible formula for scary AGW. I have pointed out that other interpretations of the data make a non scary scenario, and indeed, post the Pause,. actually fit the data better.

Occam’s razor has nothing to say in defence of either.

Poppers falsifiability is no help because the one model – the IPCC – has been falsified. The other can make no predictions beyond ‘change happens all by itself in ways we cannot hope to predict’. So that cannot be falsified. If you want to test Newton’s laws the last experiment you would use is throwing an egg at a spike to predict where the bits of eggshell are going to land….

Net result is climate science isn’t worth spending a plugged nickel on, and we should spend the money on being reasonably ready for moderate climate change in either direction. Some years ago my business partner – ten years my junior wanted to get key man insurance in case I died or fell under a bus. ‘How much for how much’ ‘well you are a smoker, and old, so its a lot’ It was enough in fact to wipe out the annual profits, and the business, twice over. Curiously he is now dead from prostate cancer, and I have survived testicular cancer, and with luck, a blocked coronary artery. Sometimes you just take te risk because insuring against it costs more … if we had been really serious about climate change we would be 100% nuclear by now. It was proven safe technology and dollar for dollar has ten times the carbon reduction impact than renewables. But of course carbon reduction was not the actual game plan. Political control of energy was. Its so much easier and cheaper to bribe governments than compete in a free market…

.

IF – and this is something that should be demonstrable – the dominant feedback terms in the real climate equations are non linear, and multiple and subject to time delay, THEN we have a complex chaotic system that will be in constant more or less unpredictable flux.

And we are pissing in the wind trying to model it with simple linear differential equations and parametrised nonsense.

The whole sleight of hand of the AGW movement has been to convince scientists who do NOT understand non linear control theory, that they didn’t NEED to understand it to model climate, and that any fluctuations MUST be ’caused’ by an externality, and to pick on the most politically and commercially convenient one – CO2 – that resonated with a vastly anti-science and non-commercial sentiment left over from the Cold War ideological battles . AGW is AgitProp, not science. AGW flatters all the worst people into thinking they are more important than they are. To a man every ground roots green movement has taken a government coin, as have the universities, and they are all dancing to the piper who is paid by the unholy aggregation of commercial interest, political power broking and political marketing.

They bought them all. They couldn’t however buy the climate. Mother Nature is not a whore.

Whether AGW is a deliberate fraud, an honest mistake, or mere sloppy ignorant science is moot. At any given level it is one or the other or any combination.

What it really is, is an emotional narrative, geared to flatter the stupid and pander to their bigotry, in order to make them allies in a process that if they knew its intentions, they would utterly oppose,.

Enormous damage to the environment is justified by environmentalists because the Greater Cause says that windmills and solar panels will Save the Planet. Even when its possible to demonstrate that they have almost no effect on emissions at all, and it is deeply doubtful if those emissions are in any way significant anyway.

Green is utterly anti-nuclear. Yet which- even on their own claims – is less harmful, a few hundred tonnes of long lived radionuclides encased in glass and dumped a mile underground, or a billion tonnes of CO2?

Apparently the radiation which hasn’t injured or killed a single person at Fukushima, is far far more dangerous than the CO2, because Germany would rather burn stinking lignite having utterly polluted its rivers in strip mining it, than allow a nuclear power plant to operate inside its borders .

Years ago Roy Harper sang

“You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink

You can lead a man to slaughter, but you’ll never make him think”

 

I had a discussion with a gloomy friend today. We agreed the world is a mess because people don’t think, they follow leaders, trends, emotional narratives, received wisdom.. Never once do they step back and ask, ‘what really is going on here?’. Another acquaintance doing management training in the financial arena chalked up on the whiteboard “Anyone who presages a statement with the words ‘I think’ and then proceeds to regurgitate someone else’s opinions, analysis or received wisdom, will fail this course and be summarily ejected’

And finally Anthony, I am not sure I wanted that post to become an article. I dont want to be someone else’s received wisdom. I want the buggers to start thinking for themselves.

If that means studying control theory systems analysis and chaos mathematics then do it. And form your own opinions.

“Don’t follow leaders, watch your parking meters”

I say people don’t think. Prove me wrong. Don’t believe what I say, do your own analysis. Stop trusting and start thinking.

I’ll leave you with a final chilling thought. Consider the following statement:

“100% of all media ‘news’ and 90% of what is called ‘science’ and an alarming amount of blog material is not what is the case, or even what people think is the case, but what people for reasons of their own, want you to think is the case”

Finally, if I ever get around to finishing it, for those who ask ‘how can it be possible that so many people are caught up in what you claim to be a grand conspiracy or something of that nature?’ I am on the business of writing a philosophical, psychological and social explanation. It entitled ‘convenient lies’ And it shows that bigotry prejudice stupidity and venality are in fact useful techniques for species survival most of the time.

Of course the interesting facet is the ‘Black Swan’ times, when it’s the most dangerous thing in the world.

Following the herd is safer than straying off alone. Unless the herd is approaching the cliff edge and the leaders are more concerned with who is following them than where they are going…

AGW is one of the great dangers facing mankind, not because its true, but because it is widely believed, and demonstrably false.

My analysis of convenient lies shows that they are most dangerous in times of deep social and economic change in society, when the old orthodoxies are simply no good.

I feel more scared these days than at any time in the cold war. Then one felt that no one would be stupid enough to start world war three. Today, I no longer have that conviction. Two generations of social engineering aimed at removing all risk and all need to actually think from society has led to a generation which is stupid enough and smug enough and feels safe enough to utterly destroy western civilisation simply because they take it totally for granted. To them the promotion of the AGW meme is a success story in terms of political and commercial marketing. The fact that where they are taking us over a cliff edge into a new dark age, is something they simply haven’t considered at all.

They have socially engineered risk and dissent out of society. For profit. Leaving behind a population that cannot think for itself, and has no need to. Its told to blindly follow the rules.

Control system theory says that that, unlike the climate, is a deeply unstable situation.

Wake up, smell the coffee. AGW is simply another element in a tendency towards political control of everything, and the subjugation of the individual into the mass of society at large. No decision is to be taken by the individual, all is to be taken by centralised bureaucratic structures – such as the IPCC. The question is, is that a functional and effective way to structure society?

My contention is that its deeply dangerous. It introduces massive and laggy overall centralised feedback, Worse, it introduces a single point of failure. If central government breaks down or falters, people simply do not know what to do any more. No one has the skill or practice in making localised decisions anymore.

The point is to see AGW and the whole greenspin machine as just an aspect of a particular stage in political and societal evolution, and understand it in those terms. Prior to the age of the telegraph and instantaneous communications, government had to be devolved – the lag was too great to pass the decisions back to central authority. Today we think we can, but there is another lag – bureaucratic lag. As well as bureaucratic incompetence.

System theory applied to political systems, gives a really scary prediction. We are on the point of almost total collapse, and we do not have the localised systems in place to replace centralised structures that are utterly dysfunctional. Sooner or later an externality is going to come along that will overwhelm the ability of centralized bureaucracy to deal with it, and it will fail. And nothing else will succeed, because people can no longer think for themselves.

Because they were lazy and let other people do the thinking for them. And paid them huge sums to do it, and accepted the results unquestioningly.

Happy new year

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Bill Yarber
January 6, 2015 5:14 pm

Leo
Well done! I have process control and PID control background and have been saying this in 25 words or less for 8 years now. If our climate was dominated by positive feedbacks, it would have saturated at one extreme or the other: ice world or Venus. Geologists think we have had, or been very close, to snowball Earth on two occasions but have come back to current, relatively stable temperatures.
Process control engineers get it, climate scientists either choose to ignore the truth or just don’t get it.
Thanks for you clear analysis of their falicies!
Bill

Chris in Australia
Reply to  Bill Yarber
January 6, 2015 5:25 pm

Agreed Bill.
See my comment above.

bonanzapilot
January 6, 2015 5:36 pm

Assuming C02i at 280 and CO2f at 420, log(∆CO2)=2.1461128 and ∆(log(CO2)=0.176091; so with normally accepted values of λ and k (I’m not a scientist and would like to know what they are), which equation makes the thing come out with the P.C. ∆T?

bonanzapilot
Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 6, 2015 5:45 pm

Whoops! I meant 2.146128

January 6, 2015 5:46 pm

Is my post in moderation?

Mark Bofill
January 6, 2015 6:04 pm

Isn’t going to help my popularity any, but at least I’ll be able to sleep tonight.
Thanks Nick. I’m pretty sure you’re correct. I think tribalism is getting in the way of people’s better judgment here. I don’t know if you are paid to post. I think it’s a shame you’re not paid to QA some of the posts in the blogosphere before they get released; it might help cut back on math errors.
People, everybody makes mistakes; everybody loses sooner or later. The trick is not acting like losers when it happens. Demonstrate a little character.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Mark Bofill
January 6, 2015 7:36 pm

Dear Mr. Bofill,
Your popularity is intact. That said, I think you may want to reconsider your support of Nick Stokes’ claims (other than the correction to the equation which EVERYONE AGREED was necessary while ALSO pointing out that that minor correction did not negate Leo Smith’s main point and also was NOT a significant point as Stokes erroneously asserted).
Smith (in above article):
1) “… the basic IPCC style equation boils down to:
∆T = λ.k.log( ∆CO2)∆.log( CO2) where lambda (λ) is the climate sensitivity that expresses the presupposed propensity of any warming directly attributable to CO2 (k.log(CO2)∆.log( CO2)) radiative forcing and its resultant direct temperature change… .” ***
2) “… a massive, non linear, hugely time delayed, negative, feedback system {…} considered some kind of constant, or a multiplier of the only driver in town, CO2.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Stokes (above at 11:36am today)
“Yes, it’s a definition of sensitivity to CO2. It’s not a claim that that is a sole cause of temperature change.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IPCC’s Claims about CO2:
“IPCC has three Working Groups {…}. WGI produces the Physical Science Basis Report, which proves {asserts} CO2 is the cause {of climate change}. {…} WGI {…} state{s},

Five criteria that should be met by climate scenarios {…}: Criterion 1: Consistency with global projections. They should be consistent with a broad range of global warming projections based on increased concentrations of greenhouse gases. This range is variously cited as 1.4°C to 5.8°C by 2100, or 1.5°C to 4.5°C for a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration (otherwise known as the “equilibrium climate sensitivity”).

” (emphases mine)
Source: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/13/why-and-how-the-ipcc-demonized-co2-with-manufactured-information/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CONCLUSION: Mr. Smith wins the point. Mr. Stokes’ quibble in support of the IPCC over “sole” versus “a” (driver) is shouted down by the IPCC’s own heavy emphasis on CO2 as the main driver of global warming.
Take care, down there, and, hey, climate bro, next time you take a long road trip (like you did the winter of 2013-14) call your mom to let her know you go there okay this time!!
#(:))
Janice

Chip Javert
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 7:47 pm

Additionally, Mother Nature’s shredding of climate model predictions augurs well for Mr. Smith and is a bad omen for Mr Stokes.
Doesn’t matter how much lipstick Mr Stokes puts on his “quibbles”…

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 7:54 pm

So THAT’S who was rummaging through my purse… . And here I was, blaming my best friend for borrowing my Bodacious Berry and not returning it! Nicholas Chamberlain {just sounded good, heh} Stokes!!! Hand it over.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 8:09 pm

“Five criteria that should be met by climate scenarios “
???? You’re quoting from a document setting out how they will design model runs to test response to CO2. Of course they will focus on varying CO2 appropriately. That’s not making any assertions about atmospheric physics.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 8:11 pm

“Atmospheric physics” is what those pitiful modelers are attempting to simulate.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 8:14 pm

“the correction to the equation which EVERYONE AGREED was necessary”

“Where did you get that from? Who told you that? Some leprechaun?
Bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha, haaa!

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 8:19 pm

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, dear Mr. Stokes.
#(:))

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 11:11 pm

Nick,

???? You’re quoting from a document setting out how they will design model runs to test response to CO2.

Sure that way, dunnit. Question is which models? Here’s the actual text from the source document:
http://www.ipcc-data.org/guidelines/pages/scen_selection.html
Criteria for Selecting Climate Scenarios
Five criteria that should be met by climate scenarios if they are to be useful for impact researchers and policy makers are suggested:
Criterion 1: Consistency with global projections. They should be consistent with a broad range of global warming projections based on increased concentrations of greenhouse gases. This range is variously cited as 1.4°C to 5.8°C by 2100, or 1.5°C to 4.5°C for a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration (otherwise known as the “equilibrium climate sensitivity”).

Here’s Janice’s hack job: [1]
Five criteria that should be met by climate scenarios {…}: Criterion 1: Consistency with global projections. They should be consistent with a broad range of global warming projections based on increased concentrations of greenhouse gases. This range is variously cited as 1.4°C to 5.8°C by 2100, or 1.5°C to 4.5°C for a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration (otherwise known as the “equilibrium climate sensitivity”).
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet … to some.
————————
[1] For brevity of course. That’s what {…} means, after all.

Mark Bofill
Reply to  Mark Bofill
January 7, 2015 9:25 am

Look, this post was elevated (without me being aware…) from a blog comment typed in in a hurry. I accept the formula isn’t quite what I meant, but you get the general idea OK?
If I had known it was going to become a post I’d have taken a lot more care over it.
Not used k where it might confuse,. Spotted that delta log is not the same as log delta..
But the main points stand:

Fair enough, thank you.

RobertLane
January 6, 2015 6:30 pm

George Box, statistician and modeler, wrote, “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”

Brandon Gates
Reply to  RobertLane
January 6, 2015 10:43 pm

RobertLane,
Rare that I see the portion after the comma included in this debate. Rarer still that folk recognize which portion of that quote is unassailable fact and which is opinion.

philincalifornia
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 6, 2015 11:03 pm

It is indeed an unassailable fact that the models have been useful for the redistribution of wealth, also known as the redistribution of poverty. Well done.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 6, 2015 11:43 pm

Dear sir, the credit, I’m sure, is your due and yours alone.

Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 7, 2015 7:50 am

Brandon Gates commented on

George Box, statistician and modeler, wrote, “All models are wrong, but some are useful.”
RobertLane,
Rare that I see the portion after the comma included in this debate. Rarer still that folk recognize which portion of that quote is unassailable fact and which is opinion.

But you must understand they wrote the model specifically to make Co2 warm, and get amplified my water, specifically.
Now, if they’re right, applause’s for everyone, if they’re wrong it makes CGM’s wrong.
Unfortunately the only way we can test them is to compare them with Earth, but we’ve bollixed what data we have it up.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 7, 2015 3:51 pm

Mi Cro,

But you must understand they wrote the model specifically to make Co2 warm, and get amplified my water, specifically.

You make that sound like a bad thing. What known principles of physics does their allegedly dubious assumption necessarily violate?

Now, if they’re right, applause’s for everyone, if they’re wrong it makes CGM’s wrong.

Hold on now, I’m already saying the models are always going to be wrong ….

Unfortunately the only way we can test them is to compare them with Earth, but we’ve bollixed what data we have it up.

Ok, well ultimately the question “are the models useful” is the subjective piece of the puzzle. But jumping ahead to that without quantifiying how wrong the models are is lumping subjective with subjective and that’s a big mess.
You’ve complicated matters by adding in, “well the observational data are screwed up too”.
I can’t count how many times people here have insisted AGW is my burden of proof. What am I supposed to do when the best evidence at my disposal to discuss my point of view is hand waved away like this?
Let me shortcut this. The ONLY way to definitively “prove” AGW is a disaster waiting to happen is for disaster to actually happen. Period, full stop, end of story, that’s the only way to know for sure.
That’s not exactly the best way to achieve certainty. To put it quite mildly.

Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 8, 2015 6:58 am

Brandon Gates commented on

“But you must understand they wrote the model specifically to make Co2 warm, and get amplified my water, specifically.”
You make that sound like a bad thing. What known principles of physics does their allegedly dubious assumption necessarily violate?

It’s how the physics aggregates into a much larger, much more complex system.

“Now, if they’re right, applause’s for everyone, if they’re wrong it makes CGM’s wrong.”
Hold on now, I’m already saying the models are always going to be wrong ….

When you write out the code there by creating a model of something, you are describing to a computer how you think that thing does whatever. Worse still because we both don’t know all of how the climate works, we have to do the code as an abstraction of how the climate works, we can’t do this at the quantum level, nor the molecular macro scale effects, we don’t even get down to surface scale objects (clouds, warm/cold fronts, rain clouds). Think of an original 16 track studio recording of my favorites Led Zeppelin, Digitize it, first at high sampling, then lower and lower, finally, substituting a programmers synthesizing the notes of Pages guitar, or Bonham’s drum, not samples, just a tone generator. How close to you think a programmer could get.

“Unfortunately the only way we can test them is to compare them with Earth, but we’ve bollixed what data we have it up.”
Ok, well ultimately the question “are the models useful” is the subjective piece of the puzzle. But jumping ahead to that without quantifiying how wrong the models are is lumping subjective with subjective and that’s a big mess.
You’ve complicated matters by adding in, “well the observational data are screwed up too”.
I can’t count how many times people here have insisted AGW is my burden of proof. What am I supposed to do when the best evidence at my disposal to discuss my point of view is hand waved away like this?

I’ve looked at at least some of the data we have for historical measured temperatures, and to say we know what global land temps were in the 60’s, or further back is a joke, and ocean temps have been sampled far less than the land. So, using the same hypothesis of surface temps used in GCM’s, they mark a model of surface temps, to test their GCM’s against (and they still have problems). And I don’t think I’ve done any hand waving, and in fact I think I’m doing something novel with the surface data we have, and I think it gives a rather different view of surface temps.

Let me shortcut this. The ONLY way to definitively “prove” AGW is a disaster waiting to happen is for disaster to actually happen. Period, full stop, end of story, that’s the only way to know for sure.
That’s not exactly the best way to achieve certainty. To put it quite mildly.

Are you going to hold you’re breath until you turn red?
Hey, it was clear and cold this morning, got the IR thermometer out, shoveled sidewalk was 11.9F, the snow on the grass was -15F (that’s 27F change due to land use alone) Air temps were about -2 or so, the sky was -90F. But you do have to add the DWIR flux back into a -90F BB spectrum, but it’s still very cold. It must have been cloudy until ~4:00am, because at 4:00am, temps started to drop at 5F/hour, that stopped about sunrise.
Now at 5F, clear sky (very low humidity, ended up in the upper 30% rel), it can lose 5F/hour.
Compare that to the absurdity of this whole circus over what is presumably a 1/10th of a degree/decade (YMMV), which quite possibly most of it is a natural set of ocean cycles or other non-ghg causes (like land use). And they want to turn over the entire world society over it.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 8, 2015 8:04 pm

Mi Cro,

It’s how the physics aggregates into a much larger, much more complex system.

[sigh] I’m pretty sure climatologists got the memo they’re dealing with a large, complex, chaotic physical system.

When you write out the code there by creating a model of something, you are describing to a computer how you think that thing does whatever. Worse still because we both don’t know all of how the climate works, we have to do the code as an abstraction of how the climate works, we can’t do this at the quantum level, nor the molecular macro scale effects, we don’t even get down to surface scale objects (clouds, warm/cold fronts, rain clouds).

This is academic. On average, the people doing the modeling have forgotten more about how the actual system works than 100 of me will ever know.

Think of an original 16 track studio recording of my favorites Led Zeppelin, Digitize it, first at high sampling, then lower and lower, finally, substituting a programmers synthesizing the notes of Pages guitar, or Bonham’s drum, not samples, just a tone generator. How close to you think a programmer could get.

Close enough that I would still melt to John’s beats on No Quarter. Might even do fun stuff to that flangy/chorusy thing on Jimmy’s guitar licks. But then I listened to that album on a cassette to cassette dub my buddy made for me. And wore it out. And still listened to it. I could play any Zep album over a tin can telephone in mono and love it. But then I had every measure of music in half their albums memorized by the time I was 18 ….
Other than that, I do know what you’re saying.
[On second read, I see you mention a tone generator … so maybe I do have to draw the line here and fully agree with you that even Led would suck redone a toy Casio keyboard type device….]

I’ve looked at at least some of the data we have for historical measured temperatures, and to say we know what global land temps were in the 60’s, or further back is a joke, and ocean temps have been sampled far less than the land.

Data are not a joke, and this isn’t funny. We can only use what we have. Period. We can’t go back and gather better data with more modern instruments no matter how much we wish we could.

And I don’t think I’ve done any hand waving, and in fact I think I’m doing something novel with the surface data we have, and I think it gives a rather different view of surface temps.

Hand waving wasn’t the correct term. Waving the data away is what I was going for. I do respect the work you’re doing in your analysis of it. What you’re hearing from me is general annoyance bordering on fatigue at what I perceive is the arbitrary way which some data are uncritically accepted as absolute “proof” AGW is bunk, while anything that runs contrary to that narrative is either casually tossed aside, or henpecked to death in a way meant to look rigorous and properly skeptical but really which amounts to nothing more than splitting hairs about issues common to any and all data in any science.
It wasn’t fair of me to take that frustration out on you in the context of the comment I was applying to and I apologize.
That said, your argument here that GCMs don’t have the fidelity to be useful grinds on me in a way that makes my bile rise again. Just exactly would you have “us” do here? You don’t seriously think they’re just mailing it in do you? Why would they NOT want to get it right?

Are you going to hold you’re breath until you turn red?

Don’t be silly, of course not. But I would happily pay an additional 1% or so of my annual income for my energy consumption if the additional cost to me went toward incentivising construction of more nuclear plants, developing geothermal resources, funding research into algae-based petroleum replacements, etc.

And they want to turn over the entire world society over it.

I don’t want that, I don’t advocate it, and would oppose it if I thought that what was being proposed. My main frustrations are about the things which aren’t being done that I think both sides could agree on doing, and that severely ticks me off.

Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 9, 2015 2:03 pm

Brandon Gates commented

“It’s how the physics aggregates into a much larger, much more complex system.”
[sigh] I’m pretty sure climatologists got the memo they’re dealing with a large, complex, chaotic physical system.
“When you write out the code there by creating a model of something, you are describing to a computer how you think that thing does whatever. Worse still because we both don’t know all of how the climate works, we have to do the code as an abstraction of how the climate works, we can’t do this at the quantum level, nor the molecular macro scale effects, we don’t even get down to surface scale objects (clouds, warm/cold fronts, rain clouds).”
This is academic. On average, the people doing the modeling have forgotten more about how the actual system works than 100 of me will ever know.
“Think of an original 16 track studio recording of my favorites Led Zeppelin, Digitize it, first at high sampling, then lower and lower, finally, substituting a programmers synthesizing the notes of Pages guitar, or Bonham’s drum, not samples, just a tone generator. How close to you think a programmer could get.”
Close enough that I would still melt to John’s beats on No Quarter. Might even do fun stuff to that flangy/chorusy thing on Jimmy’s guitar licks. But then I listened to that album on a cassette to cassette dub my buddy made for me. And wore it out. And still listened to it. I could play any Zep album over a tin can telephone in mono and love it. But then I had every measure of music in half their albums memorized by the time I was 18 ….
Other than that, I do know what you’re saying.
[On second read, I see you mention a tone generator … so maybe I do have to draw the line here and fully agree with you that even Led would suck redone a toy Casio keyboard type device….]

No matter the effort they’ve extended, or the desire to replicate climate in it’s highest fidelity, what we have now is Zeppelin getting played not so much Casio keyboard as on a touchtone phone.

“I’ve looked at at least some of the data we have for historical measured temperatures, and to say we know what global land temps were in the 60’s, or further back is a joke, and ocean temps have been sampled far less than the land.”
Data are not a joke, and this isn’t funny. We can only use what we have. Period. We can’t go back and gather better data with more modern instruments no matter how much we wish we could.

I don’t find it very funny what they’re trying to do based on how well we can tell the global temp in 1930, 17xx whenever, and proclaim that 2014 was 0.01C or 0.001C warmer than ever.

“And I don’t think I’ve done any hand waving, and in fact I think I’m doing something novel with the surface data we have, and I think it gives a rather different view of surface temps.”
Hand waving wasn’t the correct term. Waving the data away is what I was going for. I do respect the work you’re doing in your analysis of it. What you’re hearing from me is general annoyance bordering on fatigue at what I perceive is the arbitrary way which some data are uncritically accepted as absolute “proof” AGW is bunk, while anything that runs contrary to that narrative is either casually tossed aside, or henpecked to death in a way meant to look rigorous and properly skeptical but really which amounts to nothing more than splitting hairs about issues common to any and all data in any science.
It wasn’t fair of me to take that frustration out on you in the context of the comment I was applying to and I apologize.

Accepted.

That said, your argument here that GCMs don’t have the fidelity to be useful grinds on me in a way that makes my bile rise again. Just exactly would you have “us” do here? You don’t seriously think they’re just mailing it in do you? Why would they NOT want to get it right?

Okay, here’s the key. As I point out above the models may or most likely not capture all of the pertinent processes to model surface climate, but regardless of this, we know what they used for the GHG physics, and we already know it runs hot, and we know this is how it was programmed.
So the one thing we really need to know from CGM’s is warming, and we already know it runs warm, the only thing we have to know, we know it’s wrong.
Is it because we missed a process, or GHG model physics is wrong, I don’t know

“Are you going to hold you’re breath until you turn red?”
Don’t be silly, of course not. But I would happily pay an additional 1% or so of my annual income for my energy consumption if the additional cost to me went toward incentivising construction of more nuclear plants, developing geothermal resources, funding research into algae-based petroleum replacements, etc.
And they want to turn over the entire world society over it.
I don’t want that, I don’t advocate it, and would oppose it if I thought that what was being proposed. My main frustrations are about the things which aren’t being done that I think both sides could agree on doing, and that severely ticks me off.

I’ve paid, and do pay more than plenty. But it’s easy to encourage private business, give them a discount on taxes from profits based on research money spent. If I understand it right, that’s the big subsidy given to Oil Companies, the US Gov talked them into buying, and developing the technology to do deep water drilling and then horizontal drilling in the Gulf, and now that they did their part, people are complaining they get a discount on that oil profit. But if they didn’t make it work, they would have been out the development money.
We need to do the same for Nuclear, and get the Gov to not allow the millions of injunctions brought to stop construction, tying the corp up in court for decades until they just give up. This is one of my litmus test to see if people really want to reduce Co2, or is it a I hate all things oil.
Basically tax breaks on profits from R&D on alternate energy.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 10, 2015 4:48 pm

Mi Cro,

No matter the effort they’ve extended, or the desire to replicate climate in it’s highest fidelity, what we have now is Zeppelin getting played not so much Casio keyboard as on a touchtone phone.

All the more reason to reduce our need for them as much as reasonably possible.

I don’t find it very funny what they’re trying to do based on how well we can tell the global temp in 1930, 17xx whenever, and proclaim that 2014 was 0.01C or 0.001C warmer than ever.

I’ve said before, one of the nasty conundrums of my side of the policy and political debate is that I’m all but forced to root for big number increases year after year, without fail. I could say the planet doesn’t know what’s good for it but the fact of the matter is, the planet doesn’t care and will continue merrily on its way regardless what we do, or don’t do.

Okay, here’s the key. As I point out above the models may or most likely not capture all of the pertinent processes to model surface climate, but regardless of this, we know what they used for the GHG physics, and we already know it runs hot, and we know this is how it was programmed.

Is it because we missed a process, or GHG model physics is wrong, I don’t know

We missed multiple processes. A lot of the ones we missed we did so knowingly. It’s the unknown things we’re missing of most concern to me.

We need to do the same for Nuclear, and get the Gov to not allow the millions of injunctions brought to stop construction, tying the corp up in court for decades until they just give up. This is one of my litmus test to see if people really want to reduce Co2, or is it a I hate all things oil.
Basically tax breaks on profits from R&D on alternate energy.

Those are all things I support and would like to see more of. I like coal and oil in the sense that I like gasoline and electricity. I would like to see them sensibly phased out for other things I could like better. Do that properly and I see it as a growth opportunity. I like money too.

Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 10, 2015 9:10 pm

Brandon
“I’ve said before, one of the nasty conundrums of my side of the policy and political debate is that I’m all but forced to root for big number increases year after year, without fail. I could say the planet doesn’t know what’s good for it but the fact of the matter is, the planet doesn’t care and will continue merrily on its way regardless what we do, or don’t do.”
If they are low, why wish they were high? Just to force a stop to using fossil fuels?

ossqss
January 6, 2015 6:44 pm

“simply unpredictable noise”
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pr/pr_images/glacier.jpg

masInt branch 4 C3I in is
January 6, 2015 6:45 pm

log is a function, only variables change.
Ergo, ∆.log( CO2) outs you (Nick) as a fool and buffoon and worse, old boy. Go to bed and do not rise in the morning.

jimmi_the_dalek
Reply to  masInt branch 4 C3I in is
January 6, 2015 6:58 pm

nonsense.
You can take the derivative of a function with respect to a variable, or with respect to another function.

Janice Moore
Reply to  jimmi_the_dalek
January 6, 2015 7:43 pm

Hey, Jimmi (the Dalek),
I sort of apologized to you here (in case you didn’t see it): http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/01/03/the-great-pause-lengthens-again/#comment-1828540.
Sincerely,
Janice

January 6, 2015 6:50 pm

Where does one apply to get paid to post on blogs?

Chip Javert
Reply to  spaatch
January 6, 2015 7:26 pm

spaatch
Go to almost any web news article; trolls or bots are generally the first entries in the commentary section, explaining how their mother/brother/sister-in-law (fill in the blank) has made $1000, $5000, $7500 (fill in the blank) doing some kind of crap on the web. Maybe some of this is blog posting.
/sarc off

CodeTech
Reply to  Chip Javert
January 6, 2015 8:09 pm

I suspect those are the computer equivalents to phone sex…

January 6, 2015 7:02 pm

Excellent post, thanks Leo Smith.
Same reaction myself when I first read of these amazing catastrophic positive feedback mechanisms, on a water world no less.
Then there is the data, the signal that 0.7 C warming, is less (than noise in) the error range of the measured temperatures.
Then I attempted to go to the science, working through the IPCC FAR, I attempted to go to the cited science.
The trail turns to vapour.
But then I have become convinced that science has nothing to do with the UN IPCC Team ™,
in government bureaucratize, the appearance of scientific data, supporting the approved policy is all than is required.
A cloak, a cover for blatant policy based evidence manufacturing.By our tax funded bureaucracies.
The desired “solution” of the UN is a bureaucrats dream,accountable to no taxpayers, unlimited funding, power. Forcing all to pay for the fixing of a non problem,preventing a non-existent change, by taxing air.
Indeed good enough for government.

eyesonu
January 6, 2015 7:14 pm

I read Leo Smith’s comment on an earlier thread which is the lead post here. It caught my attention then and has clearly caught the attention of many here. A lot of engineers are commenting. They obviously have ‘skin’ in their careers much more so than the so-called climate ‘modelers’ and climate ‘scientists’. A failure in engineering is a career ending catastrophe while a failure in the career of the “climate establishment’ leads to continuation of feeding at the trough of govt. funding.
I’ll place my trust in the engineers. They must understand the underlying physics, properties, and parameters affecting their results. They live in a real world. It’s good to hear from their view of reality. I will sleep well tonight.

bigtrev
January 6, 2015 7:22 pm

I’m afraid I agree with Nick on one point – surely the formula should be the difference of the logs, ∆(logCO2) or put another way (logCO2*-logCO2), rather than the log of the difference Log∆CO2(as stated in the essay). Otherwise the ‘effect’ at 50ppm and 100ppm is equivalent to 1000 and 1050 but we know it isn’t because, well, the ‘effect’ is logarithmic. Or is my mathematical notation buggered – please can a mathematician clear this up.

eyesonu
Reply to  bigtrev
January 6, 2015 8:14 pm

Would you be so kind as to calculate that with a change from say 350 to a doubling to say 700 ppm and tell us what the percentage difference is.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  eyesonu
January 7, 2015 4:16 pm

eyesonu,
I get a 3 K temperature difference using:
5.35 * ln(700/280) * 0.8 – 5.35 * ln(350/280) * 0.8 = 2.97
Present temperature of the planet’s surface is ~287 K, 3/287 is close enough to 1% to call it good. Peanuts! Yet keep in mind: Climate has been in real terms amazingly stable. For millions of years. It has maintained an average of about 282 degrees absolute +- about 5 degrees since forever.
3/5 = 60%. The planet at 282 K vs. the present 287 K is miles thick ice sheets covering large portions of landmasses in areas we presently call temperate zones, so small numbers make a big difference apparently.

Alan Robertson
January 6, 2015 7:48 pm

Why don’t some of you guys petition IEEE,or something and try to get them to issue a statement to try to put an end to the nonsense?

Sun Spot
Reply to  Alan Robertson
January 6, 2015 7:51 pm

I suspect because the IEEE has either drunk the cAGW cool aid or they are afraid of the politics.

average joe
Reply to  Alan Robertson
January 6, 2015 8:04 pm

As an IEEE member and have considered pushing for this very thing. I think there is sympathy for the skeptical viewpoint within the ranks, but as politically charged as the topic has become I suspect they are careful about saying anything. Jim Steele gave an informative presentation to a group of IEEE members recently (the video is on WUWT from a few weeks back), the fact that they were willing to listen I think bodes well for our cause.

average joe
January 6, 2015 7:55 pm

Leo, I will add my voice as another engineer in support of your views. I noticed several comments that were hung up on the form of your equation, but I think they miss the bigger point – that for a model to be reliable, all of the significant inputs must be well characterized. Electrical circuit simulators work amazingly well for circuits where parasitics are negligible, but once the parasitics become significant such as at microwave frequencies, the simulator output becomes useless, just as in your amplifier example. It is surprising how difficult it becomes to model even simple electronic systems once you have to start factoring in poorly quantified parasitic effects.
When I think of the immense complexity of the climate, and my experience with electronic simulators, I am skeptical from the get-go about climate models. Then, when I see model projections that don’t match real data much at all, I become more skeptical. And finally, when I see scientists standing behind models that have shown such little predictive skill, rather than openly discussing the failures, I find it hard to give this branch of science any credibility at all. The engineering mindset naturally sees this, as engineers jobs depend on building things that actually work. Hence the folks at RC seem to detest engineers. What some clowns.

Non Nomen
Reply to  average joe
January 6, 2015 11:15 pm

>>And finally, when I see scientists standing behind models that have shown such little predictive skill, rather than openly discussing the failures, I find it hard to give this branch of science any credibility at all. <<
Well said, I fully second that. And taken into consideration that many of these 'scientists' actively try to hide methods, data, or "the decline" gives your arguments a paramount momentum.

Reply to  average joe
January 7, 2015 6:50 am

average joe commented

Electrical circuit simulators work amazingly well for circuits where parasitics are negligible, but once the parasitics become significant such as at microwave frequencies, the simulator output becomes useless,

A quibble, they do not become useless, but you do have to actually start to model the parasitics, the original OP’s design simulation issue (voltage dependent capacitance) could have been modeled, if the significant influences were added to the model.
This is part of understanding what the simulator is doing. The right course was for Leo to realize this parameter was significant to his circuit, review the model, and enhance it to include a voltage dependent capacitance, rerun the simulation, rinse and repeat. In an electronic’s lab, maybe you do this, maybe not. But if you’re making models that need to work right in this condition, you fix them and move to the next issue. There are always infidelities, you just need to understand what you’re doing enough so you either fix them, or control the conditions.
And you don’t demand that 10’s of trillions of other peoples money is spent until you do figure it out.

CodeTech
January 6, 2015 8:13 pm

Pretty much what I’ve said, specifically that the climate is amazingly stable over incredibly large amounts of time. These tiny wiggles in recorded temperatures might serve to panic the ignorant, but anyone with an IQ over 100 should know better.
There have been times in the past where CO2 and other things emitted by human industry were far higher or lower in the atmosphere, and the net result was inconsequential.
Also, the atmosphere is capable of absorbing and evenly distributing HUGE amounts of heat, both through the polar regions and that little thing called NIGHT. It has always been and always will be a lack of heat that is harmful.

Alx
January 6, 2015 8:19 pm

There are only 4 problems with climate models.
1. Climate models attempt to model climate as if it was a closed linear system with constants and a limited set of variables when it is not. Might as well model when WWIII is going to start and who emerges as the next super power. I know Issac Asimov did similar in his Foundation series, climate modelers are not quite there yet.
2. Inadequate understanding of the system being modeled. The cottage industry of reasons of why the models did not forecast the 15-20 year pause/peak highlights the inadequate understanding of climate mechanisms.
3. You cannot use your conclusion as a basis for your conclusion. Climate models begin with the premise CO2 is the only important driver of climate and then produce output that shows CO2 driving the climate.
4. Climate model forecasts have a poor track record. They do not model well against reality either backward or forward in time.
Other than those 4 issues it’s all good, keep those CPU cycles spinning.

CodeTech
Reply to  Alx
January 6, 2015 9:38 pm

Didn’t Psychohistory require a planet sized computer? Trantor, right?

michael hart
January 6, 2015 8:39 pm

I often wonder how long it takes the models to ‘leave the rails’ if left running.

Reg Nelson
January 6, 2015 8:41 pm

Nick Stokes January 6, 2015 at 11:36 am
Yes, it’s a definition of sensitivity to CO2. It’s not a claim that that is a sole cause of temperature change.
—-
Technically true, but pretty meaningless and misleading.
When are\were any other causes given any material consideration in the IPCC reports? Especially in the Executive\Policy Makers versions?
So they are in included in the models, in a mostly insignificant way? So what? What is your point? What does it prove?
If anything, these factors are only mentioned in the blame game when the models diverge from observations, which is always. And I repeat: always, always and always.

Brandon Gates
January 6, 2015 8:43 pm

Leo,

If a system is not dominated by a few major feedback factors, it ain’t stable. And if it has a regions of stability then perturbing it outside those regions will result in gross instability, and the system will be short lived.

Works for me.

Climate has been in real terms amazingly stable. For millions of years. It has maintained an average of about 282 degrees absolute +- about 5 degrees since forever.

Consistent what you just wrote above there much be a few major feedback factors to stabilize it.
It’s a massive non linear hugely time delayed negative feedback system. And that’s just water and ice. Before we toss in volcanic action, meteor strikes, continental drift. solar variability, and Milankovitch cycles…
I skipped quite a bit there. It was interesting to note the progression from “amazingly stable” to “massive non linear hugely time delayed negative feedback system” and now to …

Engineers who have done control system theory are not so arrogant. And can recognise in the irregular sawtooth of ice age temperature record a system that looks remarkably like a nasty multiple (negative) feed back time delayed relaxation oscillator.

… “a nasty multiple (negative) feed back time delayed relaxation oscillator”
That looks like it was fun to write. Still, what a heck of a transition to that from “amazingly stable … for millions of years … since forever.”
Ok, now that I’ve got my digs in, let’s look at this irregular sawtooth pattern so everyone can see what we’re about to discuss:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/MilankovitchCyclesOrbitandCores.png

What examination of the temperature record shows is that glaciation is slow. It takes many many thousands of years as the ice increases before the lowest temperatures are reached, but that positive going temperatures are much faster …

I have gone blue in the face attempting to point that out to folks here, so I’m near giddy that you wrote it. Maybe you could elaborate a bit on what it means when a series of multiple, smooth sinusoidal input signals come out of the black box looking like a saw blade, with the rising part of the signal being the (near) vertical part.
Depending on how that goes, I may have some questions for you about signal to noise ratio, and how you as a control systems engineer might go about figuring out lambda from these and other similar time series data.

… we are only 10,000 years out of the last one.

Which is unusual. It’s difficult to see it on this plot, here’s one which does a much better job:
http://www.green-innovations.asn.au/Vostok_420000_years.jpg
Second curve from the top.

Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 6, 2015 9:14 pm

Gates posted a chart [above] from an outfit called “green” something or other.
That chart is an overlay, which has been altered just enough to decptively show that maybe CO2 doesn’t follow temperature.
Here is the same chart using NOAA data:
http://www.euanmearns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/vostok_temperature_co2.png
^That^ chart shows that ∆T leads ∆CO2. But naturally Gates will believe the fabricated chart he posted, since it supports his confirmation bias.
I have lots more charts showing that ∆T causes ∆CO2. Just ask, and I’ll post some of them, like this one [note the “Note” in the upper left center in the graph]:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Past_740_kyrs_Dome-Concordia_ice_core_temperature_reconstructions.png

Brandon Gates
Reply to  dbstealey
January 6, 2015 9:50 pm

dbstealey,

Gates posted a chart [above] from an outfit called “green” something or other.

Oh silly man, that figure is from Petit et al. (1999), first published by an outfit called “Nature”: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v399/n6735/fig_tab/399429a0_F3.html#figure-title
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v399/n6735/images/399429ac.eps.2.gif

That chart is an overlay, [1] which has been altered just enough to decptively show that maybe CO2 doesn’t follow temperature.

And just what alterations were done to accomplish this feat? [2]

Here is the same chart using NOAA data:

http://www.euanmearns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/vostok_temperature_co2.png
ROFL. Why, that looks exactly like …. Petit 1999 again. You’re on FIRE tonight DB. Someone put him out, quick!
——————
[1] Has anyone here ever figured out what DB means by “overlay chart”? I mean other than somehow falsified or misleading … I get that bit. But seriously, what is the man’s technical definition of an “overlay”?
[2] If he says, “flipped the x-axis” I will have seen it all and can die in peace, having lived a full, interesting and amusing life.

David Socrates
Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 6:10 am

Brandon…
..
Any chart dbstealey doesn’t like is called an “overlay chart”

Any chart dbstealey likes and uses is not an “overlay chart”
..
Do you understand now what an “overlay chart” is?

Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 6:44 am

Well I suggest you use them because that last one is a load of junk, the axes are obviously wrongly marked. For example the Temperature axis shows ‘variation from present temperature (C)’ and ranges from -450 to -350 and yet a horizontal line is drawn showing ‘present day temperature’, if that were so then it should be at 0 not -397! in fact the number presented is delta Deuterium not temperature and the value for 70 yr BP (the most recent datapoint) should be -391). However it gets worse, the data plotted is actually the 3000 yr average, the average from 0BP (1950) back to 3000BP is 397 so that ‘Present Day Temperature’ Line is wrongly labelled. Of course a title saying “Times that were HOTTER than the average of the last 3,000 years” doesn’t have quite the same propaganda value.
If the legend to the ‘Age’ axis is to be believed then ‘NOW’ refers to 1950, but there are no CO2 data for the last 390,000 years, the graph indicates that CO2 lagged T about 620,000 years ago, big deal. If the CO2 data were continued to the present day, it would be off-scale at ~400ppm, if the idea that that rise was caused by temperature is correct, where is the implied T rise of ~60 units?
The Vostok graph is also incorrectly labelled, year zero is again 1950 not 1995, a mistake sealey routinely makes.
It would be a good idea if you understood the data you present before you do so rather than misleading readers with graphs such as this one.

Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 9:58 am

Phil,
You don’t like NOAA’s data. In fact, you don’t like anything. You never do. Is this your picture?
Go argue with NOAA if you have a problem.
Next, Socks says:
Any chart dbstealey doesn’t like is called an “overlay chart”

Any chart dbstealey likes and uses is not an “overlay chart”
..
Do you understand now what an “overlay chart” is?

Wrong as usual, Socks. Sorry you don’t understand what an overlay chart is. It is not my term, as you seem to believe. It is a widely used label for two charts overlaid on one graph, to show a relationship. It can be done accurately, or not; like lying with statistics, people can also lie with charts.
For your edification, here are many examples of chart overlays. [For more chart goodness, add “CO2, temperature” to the search terms.]
You’re welcome.
Charts are very useful for communicating with the public. They show at a glance what might take a long screed to explain. I have folders with many thousands of charts, collected over the past 15 – 20 years. Whenever I see an interesting chart, I save it. Together they tell the story: catastrophic AGW is complete nonsense. That is something I have a hard time teaching any of you. But I won’t give up. Maybe you will never learn. But the public is coming around, big time.

Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 10:24 am

Socks,
Now you’re starting to get it.
Yes, those are all overlay charts. Now, for your next lesson:
Some charts are simple overlays [does “simple overlay” ring a bell?], and some overlay charts show a cause and effect. The ones that show which is the cause and which is the effect between changes in CO2 and temperature, are the interesting subset of the overlay universe.
Why is that, you ask?
Since you asked so politely, the answer is that the question and answer of cause and effect debunks the “carbon” scare. Completely. Once you accept reality, there’s nothing more for you to argue about [Of course I know that isn’t true. You would argue that down is up if it involved your too-sensitive ego.]
So as you can see in the last chart you posted:
Note: TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2 CHANGE
That is what you need to know. Really, that is all you need to know.
Finally, what I need to know is this: how do I get a job like yours? A job where I can post to blogs all throughout the workday, and get paid to do it? Please don’t tell us you’re an unemployed layabout…  ☹

David Socrates
Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 10:37 am

Dbstealey…
This chart does not show “cause and effect”

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/isolate:60/mean:12/scale:0.26/plot/hadcrut3vgl/isolate:60/mean:12/from:1958

It is comparing noise to noise.
See definition of “isolate” in … http://www.woodfortrees.org/help

David Socrates
Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 10:42 am

Dbstealey

Your second chart doesn’t show cause and effect.
It shows a correlation

And you know that correlation doesn’t prove causation.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 12:54 pm

Socrates,
My view on this is that the main knock against the isolate function in this context is that it inherently removes any secular trends in the time series it’s applied to. That’s a good feature when looking for lead/lag relationships which is an integral part of establishing causation … since as you rightly point out correlation alone doesn’t demonstrate causation. Used this way, isolate tells us something about timing and amplitude about a mean, which I think is nifty.
Thing is, any trends in the data longer than the chosen sampling period will get stomped flat. Not looking at longer sampling periods with this technique is not nifty, dare I even say wrongly motivated:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/isolate:480/mean:12/scale:0.1/plot/hadcrut3vgl/isolate:480/mean:12/from:1958
I could cherry-pick sampling periods all day with this method and find other exceptions to DB’s “temperature causes CO2 always” mantra. Or I could arbitrarily rescale and use the same number of isolate samples just because I like the looks of it better:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/isolate:480/mean:12/scale:0.05/plot/hadcrut3vgl/isolate:480/mean:12/from:1958
Thing is, over a 40 year cycle the other “noise” in the system really does become a factor relative to the bleeding obvious secular trends isolate is hammering flat:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/mean:12/offset:-280/scale:0.26/plot/hadcrut3vgl/mean:12/from:1958
I offset CO2 by -280 ppmv, that being the canonical pre-industrial value. I scaled CO2 by 0.26 since that’s the same exact scaling factor DB used in his plot to make things fit nicely along the y-axis.
I expect him to balk about my choice of the -280 offset. If not that, I guarantee you he will find some reason to declare what I have just done a “simple” overlay (as opposed to what, “complex?), cry confirmation bias, or find some other dubiously creative way to claim that CO2 is not presently leading temperature.
Or maybe he’ll hint around that it might be volcanoes is whut dunnit. Who knows.

Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 3:07 pm

dbstealey January 7, 2015 at 9:58 am
Phil,
You don’t like NOAA’s data.

I have no problem with the NOAA data, but I do have a problem with the graph which totally misrepresents that data, and which was obviously put together by someone who doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing! At least as far as the added annotations which are completely wrong as indicated above.

milodonharlani
Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 3:24 pm

Oldest recovered Greenlandice 150 Ka, not 110 Ka as stated on the chart, so dates from before the Eemian.

Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 7:16 pm

Socks says:
…Your second chart doesn’t show cause and effect. It shows a correlation
It shows cause and effect — just like it states, right in the chart!
You are crazy. Or trolling.
Good bye.

David Socrates
Reply to  dbstealey
January 7, 2015 7:23 pm

Dbstealey

Your chart is an “overlay”

According to you an overlay chart does not show “causation”

Janice Moore
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 6, 2015 9:15 pm

Oh, don’t feel bad about your “digs,” Mr. Gates. Your entire pile of objections can be dismissed with the concept of: long-term effects versus short-term effects which reconciles every one of the false inconsistencies you allege.
Your fatuously vain attempt to laugh at Mr. Smith only made you look ridiculous.

Mike the Morlock
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 9:30 pm

Hi, Janice. Mr Gates has not yet figured out that he is testifiying in “moot court” and events have passed him by.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 9:54 pm

Hi, Mike,
Indeed. He likes his own little imaginary world better than the one the rest of us live in. Liked your clever pun “bon appetit.” I tried to come up with some suitable repartee and gave up. Thanks for sharing and for saying “Hi.”
Janice

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 10:06 pm

Janice Moore,

Oh, don’t feel bad about your “digs,” Mr. Gates.

Thanks, that’s a relief actually. I was getting worried that Mr. Smith might not be a grown man fully capable of defending his own words for himself and might get cross with me for my snark.

Your entire pile of objections can be dismissed with the concept of: long-term effects versus short-term effects which reconciles every one of the false inconsistencies you allege.

You know, you’re right. The past 18 years does seem like an eternity. It’s almost like there’s no room left in time for the events of 1850-1998.

Your fatuously vain attempt to laugh at Mr. Smith only made you look ridiculous.

I grudgingly award you two points for use of the word fatuously in conversation. You also get 2015’s fourth ‘sploded irony meter as a door prize. Congrats!

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 10:14 pm

Mike the Morlock,

Mr Gates has not yet figured out that he is testifiying in “moot court” and events have passed him by.

Here I was thinking this was kangaroo court because the prosecution hasn’t yet asked a single relevant question about my initial post. The jury box being stuffed to overflowing with a pack of laughing hyenas should have tipped me off.

Mike the Morlock
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 11:07 pm

Okay Brandon so, you don’t know what “moot court” is.
michael

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 11:31 pm

Mike the Morlock,
Duh, the most politically correct kind of course — everything’s said in sign language.

Mike the Morlock
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 6, 2015 11:54 pm

good night Brandon If you are on the same side of the world as me, sleep well (no sac or ill will)
michael

Reply to  Janice Moore
January 7, 2015 10:31 am

Janice,
Gates doesn’t feel bad about trolling this excellent article and thread. He is fixated on his belief that “carbon” is gonna getcha. Even though Mr. Smith absolutely destroys that nonsense, Gates continues in the only way he has left: using his impotent ridicule.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Janice Moore
January 7, 2015 2:58 pm

Mike the Morlock, Thanks, same to you next sleep cycle.

David Socrates
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 7, 2015 1:36 pm

Brandon,
More than the use of the “isolate” function in most of these various incarnations of charts, I find the use of the “mean” on the CO2 data to be problematic. When a 12-month mean is used, the seasonal variation of CO2 vanishes

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2005/plot/esrl-co2/from:2005/mean:12
The second problem I have is when attempting to “find” relationships, they anomaly temps are used with again makes seasonal variation vanish.
..
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/clip_image0041.jpg
If one is attempting to establish a relationship between two variables, they need to use absolute values, and not anomalies.
When these two criteria are enforced, the “T causes CO2” argument is next to impossible to make.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 2:55 pm

Socrates,
You make an excellent points about anomalized vs. absolute temp and seasonal CO2 variability. For giggles, here is what happens when we strip out the 12 month moving averages for both series but leave the 60 month isolate:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/isolate:60/scale:0.1/plot/hadcrut3vgl/isolate:60/from:1958
There are only a million other things to consider of course. Absolute temps is just but one.

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 3:00 pm

Here is a bowl full ……er……well, here are four “cherries” you can pick from…..depending on what your intentions are.

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:2005/offset:-380/plot/esrl-co2/from:2005/mean:12/offset:-380/plot/esrl-co2/from:2005/derivative/plot/esrl-co2/from:2005/mean:12/derivative

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 3:28 pm

So you have done teh derivativeeez. Lemme see, ah:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/from:1958/mean:60/derivative/scale:10/plot/esrl-co2/from:1958/mean:60/derivative
So I believe units would be CO2 ppmv/year and temperature K/decade. Wiggles still show CO2 lagging temps, but a positively sloping linear trend on a 1st derivative means what?
This is totally cheating with arbitrary y-axis scaling, I really should knock it off.

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 4:58 pm

Of course….I have yet to see anyone do the 2nd derivative….which we all are familiar with as “acceleration”
..
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/derivative/derivative/trend

Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 6:59 pm

Gates, you will never learn. Charts like those do not indicate which is the cause, and which is the effect. They are simple overlays.
WFT allows lots of overlays in a single chart. But the only meaningful ones in the AGW debate are the T/CO2 charts that show causality.
None of the charts you posted show causality. In fact, the only legitimate charts that show causality show only one thing: changes in T are the cause of subsequent changes in CO2. I can find no honest charts that show the reverse causality.
It all comes down to measurements. Produce a credible measurement quantifying AGW, and everything will fall into place.
But so far there are no measurements of AGW. So AGW is just a conjecture; a baseless conjecture at that. Even if AGW exists, clearly it cannot be very large, can it? It is so small that we can’t even measure it.
This is just more evidence that the whole ‘man-made global warming’ scare is completely baseless. It is nonsense. If I’m wrong… post a measurement of AGW.

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 7:08 pm

I think I understand Mr Dbstealey’s thinking about “overlays”

When a chart shows what dbstealey wants it to show, it is not an “overlay”
Whrn a chart shows what dbstealey doesn’t want it to show, it is an “overlay”

Got it

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 7:15 pm

I think I understand Mr Dbstealey’s thinking about “overlays”


When a chart shows what dbstealey wants it to show, it is not an “overlay”
Whrn a chart shows what dbstealey doesn’t want it to show, it is an “overlay”

Got it

Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 8:07 pm

Socks, you not only don’t understand what I’m trying to teach you, you don’t even know how to avoid double-posting…
…that was an accident. Wasn’t it? Even 7 minutes apart?

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 8:11 pm

Thanks for the laugh mr Dbstealey

You are not capable of “teaching”

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 8:14 pm

Hey Mr Dbstealey

Can you teach me about this?

“those of us up to speed on the subject know that global temperature (T) rises or falls the most at night”

Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 8:41 pm

Socks says:
You are not capable of “teaching”
Anyone is capable of teaching. Even a bee or a flea can teach you.
But some folks are not capable of learning. Mr. Socrates.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 7, 2015 8:45 pm

dbstealey,

Gates, you will never learn. Charts like those do not indicate which is the cause, and which is the effect. They are simple overlays.

They were not meant to.

I can find no honest charts that show the reverse causality.

Much depends on your definition of “honest”.

Produce a credible measurement quantifying AGW, and everything will fall into place.

Why should I do that? You’ve already told me what you think is a credible measurement:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/clip_image0062.jpg?w=700
How did whoever did this chart come up with 0.5 as the value for lambda?

Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 2:03 pm

Socks says:
Can you teach me about this?
No.
You are not capable of learning anything that contradicts your belief system.

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 2:10 pm

Please Mr Dbstealey….
I’m asking you in a nice way.
Please teach me why, ““those of us up to speed on the subject know that global temperature (T) rises or falls the most at night”

I need to understand this……seems a very extraordinary claim on your part, but I suppose if you provide me with the details, I will learn how you discovered this.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 6:50 pm

Socrates, is it just me or does it look like DB is beginning to run out of room to manuver?

Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 9, 2015 1:41 pm

Just you

David Socrates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 7:04 pm

Brandon.

Not sure DB could “maneuver” in the first place.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 7:20 pm

Socrates,
Could be. My past few exchanges with him have had the feel of trying to fish barehanded.

Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 7:28 pm

Gates, Leo Smith has ridden the alarmist crowd hard and put them to bed wet. That’s why and your Bobbessey Twin constantly change the subject. You emit pixels, but you are getting thrashed in the debate.
And I’m still waiting for a measurement quantifying AGW. I’m beginning to think you don’t have one.
Without a measurment of AGW, you’ve got nothin’. No wonder you argue in circles.
Socks says:
Please teach me why…
You are simply not teachable. I’m not the only one who has pointed out that fact.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 8:29 pm

dbstealey,

Gates, Leo Smith has ridden the alarmist crowd hard and put them to bed wet.

I’ve always been partial to that metaphor since the first time I heard it.

That’s why and your Bobbessey Twin constantly change the subject.

It might help if you demonstrated some understanding of the actual subject instead of cutting and running when me ‘n Socks et al. ask you pointy questions about what you get and what you don’t. To wit this chart you so graciously provided for discussion and now suddenly avoid talking about like death itself:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/clip_image0062.jpg?w=700
Not tell us hotshot, how did whoever generated this plot come up with the y-axis temperature values? You could really impress by writing out the formula for it, containing the correct values for the coefficients.

And I’m still waiting for a measurement quantifying AGW. I’m beginning to think you don’t have one.

Hint: you’ve already supplied a putative measurement in the graph YOU submitted above and STAND BY as correct. This really is like fishing bare handed, but at least you’re in a barrel and don’t have too many places to dart off to.

Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 8:53 pm

Gates says:
It might help if you demonstrated some understanding…
Plenty of understanding here. Unlike noobie Gates, I’ve been completely immersed in this subject for more than twenty years.
As for Gates not being able to understand that graph, maybe it would help to go back and read the WUWT post that it came from. And as I’ve posted before, there are other charts, from different sources — all of them showing the same thing.
It’s radiative physics on a chart, and it clearly shows why adding more [harmless, beneficial] CO2 to the atmosphere will not cause any measureable rise in T. Which debunks the ‘man-made global warming’ hoax, no?
For those of us who understand that, it makes it clear that there is nothing to worry about.
~ Hotshot

RACookPE1978
Editor
Reply to  dbstealey
January 8, 2015 10:14 pm

DBStealey.
Let’s look at a computer model of a “perfect physics” derivation of a simple reaction system of a few round objects
Surely, “physics” can get everything right (in the real world) by creating a “computer model” of the simple reactions of a limited simple system. No gravity, friction, inertia, rotation, tolerances to worry about, right?
http://community.wolfram.com/groups/-/m/t/418720
So. How come this has never happened in real life? The “Physics” is perfect, right? 8<)

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 8, 2015 11:00 pm

dbstealey,

Plenty of understanding here.

Show me, don’t tell me, Missouri. I am testing your ability to explain the concepts at work here by showing me the math, not your ability to write, “go read the post”.
You are failing that test miserably and for all the world to see. Time to put your money where your piehole is. Long past time, as this is on the order of the 10th time I’ve asked you about the chart.

It’s radiative physics on a chart …

And just how exactly how were those physics verified, DB? How do you know the y-axis values are accurate hmm?

Reply to  David Socrates
January 9, 2015 1:52 am

Gates, you are an unteachable novice. I suggest that you go read the WUWT archives for a few months, try to get some inkling of reality, then come back and dip your toe in the water.
Because right now you’re running around in circles like Chicken Little, convinced the sky is falling. Instead of being a clueless noob, learn something for a change. If possible.
=========================
RACook,
Very interesting link. I liked it a lot! Thanks.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 9, 2015 10:21 am

dbstealey,
Still can’t answer the questions I see. Or is it won’t? Why woudn’t you want to answer these very simple, easy questions I wonder:
And just how exactly how were those physics verified, DB? How do you know the y-axis values are accurate hmm?
What happened to “show me”, Missouri? What’s with this even more pompously delivered, “go look yourself” buffoonery all about? Self-identifying principles are anything but if they change so capriciously.
Tell the world what you really stand for, DB. Because, see, from where I’m sitting, self-consistency, honesty and integrity don’t appear to be on your list of guiding values.

Reply to  David Socrates
January 9, 2015 10:33 am

Gates, what are you still babbling about? Face it, you lost the debate a long time ago. Why are you still digging?
And you never answer my questions, like where are your measurements of AGW? Oh, right. That’s the reason you lost the debate. You don’t have any measurements, all you have are your baseless assertions.
Another question you never answer: how do I get a job like yours and socks’s? It must be great being able to post blog comments throughout the work day! Where do I apply?
Of course, you’re probably just unemployed. Either that, or you’re cheating your employer — unless your employer is the one paying you to post comments. Cheating your employer — then claiming that I lack ethics?? Look in the mirror, son.
Let’s recap. You are either:
• Unemployed, or
• Cheating your employer, or
• Being a paid troll
Have I left out any other possibilities?

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 9, 2015 8:31 pm

dbstealey,
Gates, what are you still babbling about? Face it, you lost the debate a long time ago. Why are you still digging?
The shovel in my hand is for digging you out of that hole when it collapses inward on you.
And you never answer my questions, like where are your measurements of AGW?
You know darn well where they are. You’ve been steeped in this stuff for 20 years, remember? Apparently you put some stock in them because of this little chart you posted:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/clip_image0062.jpg?w=700
The issues you keep ducking are:
1) How the creator of this chart came up with the values for the y-axis TEMPERATURE values.
2) Why you think they are accurate if Global Warming is too insignificant to measure.
Your turn to show me, Missouri.
Let’s recap. You are either:
• Unemployed, or
• Cheating your employer, or
• Being a paid troll
Have I left out any other possibilities?
That pretty much covers the bases. Why the details of my personal situation are any of your concern boggles the mind. It’s also indicative that you’re pretty much out of arguments, if indeed you have much of anything substantive to say on this topic at all.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 9, 2015 8:32 pm

PS, if it helps, a paid troll wouldn’t muck up the $%ing blockquote tags.
[Life happens. What is the correct blockquote location? locations? It is not immediately obvious now. .mod]

Brandon Gates
Reply to  David Socrates
January 9, 2015 11:02 pm

(mod, this is the post w/ corrected blockquotes. please nuke the original. thanks.)
dbstealey,

Gates, what are you still babbling about? Face it, you lost the debate a long time ago. Why are you still digging?

The shovel in my hand is for digging you out of that hole when it collapses inward on you.

And you never answer my questions, like where are your measurements of AGW?

You know darn well where they are. You’ve been steeped in this stuff for 20 years, remember? Apparently you put some stock in them because of this little chart you posted:
The issues you keep ducking are:
1) How the creator of this chart came up with the values for the y-axis TEMPERATURE values.
2) Why you think they are accurate if Global Warming is too insignificant to measure.
Your turn to show me, Missouri.

Let’s recap. You are either:
• Unemployed, or
• Cheating your employer, or
• Being a paid troll
Have I left out any other possibilities?

That pretty much covers the bases. Why the details of my personal situation are any of your concern boggles the mind. It’s also indicative that you’re pretty much out of arguments, if indeed you have much of anything substantive to say on this topic at all.

jimmi_the_dalek
Reply to  Brandon Gates
January 7, 2015 2:27 pm

It should be obvious that you cannot tell anything about a trend using de-trended data.
This is the problem with all graphs which have used the isolate function, such as those popular with dbstealey. Like this one,
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/isolate:60/mean:12/scale:0.26/plot/hadcrut3vgl/isolate:60/mean:12/from:1958
which just shows the difference between two different ways to calculate a running mean.
He also has a fixation on the position of the peaks, not noticing that they are cancelled by the troughs in the graph, as they must be if the trend is zero.

David Socrates
Reply to  jimmi_the_dalek
January 7, 2015 2:48 pm

Thank you

Brandon Gates
Reply to  jimmi_the_dalek
January 7, 2015 3:04 pm

Or another way of putting it, because isolate relies on centered running means, it’s using data from the future for its calculations. Have either of you two futzed with the derivative function in WFT?

Reply to  jimmi_the_dalek
January 7, 2015 8:46 pm

Jimmi says:
It should be obvious that you cannot tell anything about a trend using de-trended data.
You can tell the direction of the trend, and which came first, T or CO2 [yes, it is T].
Next:
He also has a fixation on the position of the peaks, not noticing that they are cancelled by the troughs
Incorrect, because the troughs show the same causal relationship as the peaks ∆T causes ∆CO2. Both coming and going.
Finally, you don’t like the graph you posted. But there are lots of graphs showing the same causation in many different time frames, from different sources.
They aren’t all wrong.
http://s15.postimg.org/u5rw8hjgb/740_kyrs_Dome_Concordia.png
[Note this in the chart: “Note: TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2 CHANGE”]

Chris in Australia
January 6, 2015 8:47 pm

What I would like to see is a graph of the temperatures in degrees Kelvin with the Y axis from 0*K to 400*K and the X axis of 100 million years.
The data does exist.
This might just put all our squabbles in perspective. And we might be able to see who is fooling who.

Brandon Gates
Reply to  Chris in Australia
January 6, 2015 9:25 pm

Chris in Australia,
You know, I brought that up not long ago as a joke.
There are some data here: ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/deutnat.txt
That gives you >420,000 years of temperature data from Vostok which is sufficient to illustrate your … point. Add 287 to each value to convert to Kelvin scale. Not that it matters for this exercise, but to be most realistic you’ll want to multiply every value by 0.44 before doing the conversion to K.

bonanzapilot
January 6, 2015 9:11 pm

Again: Assuming C02i at 280 and CO2f at 420, log(∆CO2)=2.146128 and ∆log(CO2)=0.176091…
Which values of values of λ and k make the thing work?

bonanzapilot
Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 6, 2015 9:39 pm

Or if the whole thing is designed around decimal ppm, then λ and k, or the multivariable equations they might represent, would be adjusted accordingly. I really am trying to understand how this supposedly “works”. There must be some generally accepted definitions regardless of the political debate and I’d like to know what they are.

Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 6, 2015 11:24 pm

Essentially λ x k x ln(2) = ‘climate sensitivity’
IIRC without lambda its about 0.4 degrees per doubling of CO2 from memory. I,e that is what CO2 in an utterly stable linear we-have-all-the-bases-covered ought to do, if they have got the physics right (Alecm maintains they haven’t: I am not getting involved mkay?)
whereas the IPCC & chums IIRC has values from 1 to around 5 as possible values. lambda is tweaked to fit the curves of the data, real imagined or cherry picked according to your taste… The problem is it no longer fist the data for ANY value of lambda…hence the desperate struggle to introduce extra terms to save the theory. Of course the problem with that is that those extra terms might actually explain global warming without needing CO2 at all. If heat is hiding in the oceans to pop up later on..well who needs CO2, there’s your long term time delay feedback mechanism that with a bit of bent paperclip will cause global warm periods and little ice ages without needing CO2 at all. Oh dear. Up Queer Street in a right buggers muddle without a paddle it seems.
I am saddened to note that Judith Curry, a proper scientist and a luke warmist, stills buys the proposition that CO2 has a significant effect on climate and is concerned to establish ‘by how much’
Us chaos phreaks are more or less saying “by not enough to be worth losing any sleep over: the pause shows very low correlation between CO2 and climate so we either have ‘and something else is causing it” – the last refuge of the Linear Modellers, or we go the full Monty on the Emperor’s new green clothes and say “it ain’t linear, so Occam’s razor at this point in time says its almost certainly capable of doing global warming all by itself, and as far as we can tell, has done in the past, times ten”.
That is the appalling reality. There might be no need to have anything causing climate change at all, beyond natural feedback in the climate system itself.
the greatest rule of models is not what you put in, but what you can safely leave out.
Given the financial emotional and intellectual investment in AGW, the prospect that it was a chimera after all, will not be received joyously.
Chicken embryos physog, on.
Imagine if you will a smug bearded be-sandalled professor of the philosophy of Climate change specialising in examining the moral implications of human induced climate change. Who discovers that actually, there wasn’t any.

bonanzapilot
Reply to  Leo Smith
January 6, 2015 11:53 pm

Thank you!

bigtrev
Reply to  Leo Smith
January 7, 2015 1:42 am

for the record my clarification re the formula is born from commenting on CAGW zealot sites here in Aust like ‘The Conversation’ – a government funded blog where academia holds the fort on climate propaganda with articles that are sometimes embarrassing in their simplistic preaching. Anyways if you make a little error on that blog, lookout as you are in for some abuse. Never mind the CAGW crew take a grain of physics and turn it into the end of the world. You gotta get it perfect otherwise they use the ‘you spelt accommodation wrong so all you work is shiite’ trick. As I think our Nick attempted and very nearly pulled off.
Great article Leo and goodonya mate – you make some very very good points and thanks for the formula correction, that is what honest thinkers do.

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 7, 2015 5:45 am

Re Judith Curry, don’t be saddened that she is going to seek out “by how much” CO2 matters. This lady will say it doesn’t matter if her findings are such. She is one of the very few beacons of honesty and integrity in this business and she has been excoriated viciously for it!!

Reply to  Leo Smith
January 7, 2015 5:54 am

Leo Smith
January 6, 2015 at 11:24 pm
Leo, I was also intrigued by your idea for a book. Make sure to research the evil genius behind much of this world takeover: the Canadian communist/entrepreneur/, Maurice Strong who created the UNFCCC , the Stockholm conference, the Rio summit that kicked off Kyoto AND set the task for IPCC of showing how much humans have effected the climate with CO2. This guy is a very bright fellow with only a high school education, now currently living in Beijing. I know it reads like doctor evil but this guy is real. Especially find his choice quotes.

Editor
Reply to  Leo Smith
January 7, 2015 10:32 am

Reply to Leo S ==> I would take objection to this characterization of Dr. Curry’s views:

I am saddened to note that Judith Curry, a proper scientist and a luke warmist, stills buys the proposition that CO2 has a significant effect on climate and is concerned to establish ‘by how much’

Your comment’s applicability depends entirely on which “significant” you mean — the scientifically/statistically significant or the everyday English significant.
She is probably the most honest, straight forward, fair playing climate scientist currently willing to interact with the general public — and does very important work. Her views and actions deserve your respect.
I would suggest reading her Stadium Wave paper.

Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 7, 2015 8:10 am

As has been pointed out above you can’t take the log of a dimensional variable so the correct version is ∆log(CO2)=0.176, i.e. the contents of the brackets must be a dimensionless ratio.

Mike the Morlock
January 6, 2015 9:17 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/brontosaurus-never-existed-tale-bone-wars-185524946.html
There is nothing new under the sun. When it comes to turf wars, egos, reputations, and ideologies. Some of you know of the above story, others please do read, have a laugh and think of the players pushing AGW. Bon Appetit.

n.n
Reply to  Mike the Morlock
January 6, 2015 9:31 pm

The scientific method has failed to restrain human egos from venturing outside of the scientific domain. I think the uncertain and varying boundaries of the scientific domain make people feel uncomfortable, and there are more than a few scientists, politicians, etc. who are prepared to exploit that discomfort for personal gain. That said, they created a sea monster simply through extrapolation from a single loose tooth. Anyway, keep the faith, or something.

n.n
January 6, 2015 9:25 pm

Why not just assume independence and uniformity in time and space, and save billions of dollars and time trying to concoct plausible heuristic models? Perhaps that would be too obvious. Oh, well. It’s not cheap to operate outside of the scientific domain. I wonder if the [social] consensus adds or detracts from this enterprise’s credibility. A series of inconvenient truths.

TomRude
January 6, 2015 9:35 pm

The incredible Mike MacCracken is defending models on Yahoo climate Sceptics:
“So, it is not just models—though I would add in their defense that models are constructed based on our understanding of physics, chemistry, etc.–so just super fast pen and paper calculations, etc.
Mike”
Pierre Morel, the founder of Dynamic Meteorology Laboratory and former Secretary General of the Global Program Climate Research in Paris explained in a 2009 conference that this is typically what modelers are trying to make people believe -i.e. we’re right because these are the laws of physics-, but the reality is different: Quotes from the conference, courtesy of http://www.pensee-unique.fr/paroles.html#morel
“We read in official documents” Climate models are derived from the laws of physics “I quote this because I read it, but it’s not true Climate models do.! are not based on the laws of physics.
The laws of physics are microscopic laws. And the fact that the models in question have a gap between what they actually represent, ie the average on the scale of a block of 100 by 100 km or more, and then the detailed reality, local, if you like, this hiatus that there has disconnected. The laws of physics no longer apply. While it’s true that modelers like to believe that their models are based on the laws of physics because if it were true, at that time, there is no need to check their formulas. Their formulas are automatically good as they would be based upon the laws of physics. But unfortunately they are not ..
This is the system clay foot. The big danger is that these models are not really connected solidly, supported, based on the laws of physics.
So you have to go check the empirical laws. you have to go watch them closely. And that is unfortunately very difficult because if you take the average over 100 per 100km in a series of convective clouds, if you mean you do not see anything. the rising air is very humid, that comes down is drier. Are averaged, there is an intermediate thing is, everything but there is nothing of the detail of the mechanical operation of the system.”
MacCracken once again is simply trolling on Yahoo and real scientists know better.

Cornfed
January 6, 2015 9:52 pm

I will leave a more general comment here, since I’m not well versed in the details of climate modelling. But i did a bit of modelling in grad school. I had a perfectly sane professor who insisted that we all understood one thing, if nothing else: Never confuse models with reality. They are tools that can yield insight, but they do nothing other than what you program them to do. They are as fallible as the scientists who create them. That may be the root of the problem. Climate scientists cannot admit fault in their models, because they would then have to admit their own fallibility. And let’s face it: humility is not in abundance amongst that crowd.

bonanzapilot
Reply to  Cornfed
January 6, 2015 10:09 pm

Or the skeptics, so it seems – and I am one. I find it disappointing that much of this debate degenerated into mudslinging over the meaning of a simple equation which is logarithmic no matter who is right, and as far as I can see, there is still no concise answer understandable to the layman. At the end of the day, the laymen will decide at the ballot box; and they deserve the courtesy of replies understandable to those of them willing to put in a little effort.

bonanzapilot
Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 6, 2015 10:25 pm

And, if the answer to the above is “you don’t have the background and training to understand”, then are we any more credible than the warmists?

MikeB
Reply to  bonanzapilot
January 7, 2015 2:14 am

Well said

ggf
Reply to  Cornfed
January 7, 2015 8:47 am

The map is not the territory

Non Nomen
January 6, 2015 10:32 pm

Thanks a lot. Concisely written and plausible sends this article the whole IPCC fake to Hades.