Time and the Tides Wait for Godot

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

I’ve been listening to lots of stuff lately about tidal cycles. These exist, to be sure. However, they are fairly complex, and they only repeat (and even then only approximately) every 54 years 34 days. They also repeat (even more approximately) every 1/3 of that 54+ year cycle, which is 18 years 11 days 8 hours. This is called a “Saros cycle”. So folks talk about those cycles, and the 9 year half-Saros-cycle, and the like. The 54+ year cycle gets a lot of airtime, because people claim it is reflected in a sinusoidal approximately 54-year cycle in the for example the HadCRUT temperature records.

Now, I originally approached this tidal question from the other end. I used to run a shipyard in the Solomon Islands. The Government there was the only source of tide tables at the time, and they didn’t get around to printing them until late in the year, September or so. As a result, I had to make my own. The only thing I had for data was a printed version of the tide tables for the previous year.

What I found out then was that for any location, the tides can be calculated as a combination of “tidal constituents” of varying periods. As you might imagine, the strongest tidal constituents are half-daily, daily, monthly, and yearly. These represent the rotations of the earth, sun, and moon. There’s a list of the various tidal constituents here, none of which are longer than a year.

day by day tidal force earthFigure 1. Total tidal force exerted on the Earth by the combination of the sun and the moon. 

So what puzzled me even back then was, why are there no longer-period cycles used to predict the tides? Why don’t we use cycles of 18+ and 54.1 years to predict the tides?

Being a back to basics, start-from-the-start kind of guy, I reckoned that I’d just get the astronomical data, figure out the tidal force myself, and see what cycles it contains. It’s not all that complex, and the good folks at the Jet Propulsion Lab have done all the hard work with calculating the positions of the sun and moon. So off I went to JPL to get a couple hundred years data, and I calculated the tidal forces day by day. Figure 1 above shows a look at a section of my results:

These results were quite interesting to me, because they clearly show the two main influences (solar and lunar). Figure 1 also shows that the variations do not have a cycle of exactly a year—the high and low spots shift over time with respect to the years. Also, the maximum amplitude varies year to year.

For ease of calculation, I used geocentric (Earth centered) coordinates. I got the positions of the sun and moon for the same time each day from 1 January 2000 for the next 200 years, out to 1 Jan 2200. Then I calculated the tidal force for each of those days (math in the appendix). That gave me the result you see in Figure 1.

However, what I was interested in was the decomposition of the tidal force into its component cycles. In particular, I was looking for any 9 year, 18+ year, or 54.1 year cycles. So I did what you might expect. I did a Fourier analysis of the tidal cycles. Figure 2 shows those results at increasingly longer scales from top to bottom.

Fourier analysis tidal forceFigure 2. Fourier analysis of the tidal forces acting on the earth. Each succeeding graph shows a longer time period. Note the increasing scale.

The top panel shows the short-term components. These are strongest at one day, and at 29.5 days, with side peaks near the 29.5 day lunar cycle, and with weaker half-month cycles as well.

The second panel shows cycles out to 18 months. Note that the new Y-axis scale is eight times the old scale, to show the much smaller annual cycles. There are 12 month and 13.5 month cycles visible in the data, along with much smaller half-cycles (6 months and 6.75 months). You can see the difference in the scales by comparing the half-month (15 day) cycles in the top two panels.

The third panel shows cycles out to 20 years, to investigate the question of the 9 and 18+ year cycles … no joy, although there is the tiniest of cycles at about 8.75 years. Again, I’ve increased the scale, this time by 5X. You can visualize the difference by comparing the half-year (6-7 month) cycles in the second and third panels. At this scale, any 9 or 18+ year cycles would be very visible … bad news. There are no such cycles in decomposition of the data.

Finally, the fourth panel is the longest, to look for the 54 year cycle. Again, there is no such underlying sine-wave cycle.

Now, those last two panels were a surprise to me. Why are we not finding any 9, 18+, or 54 year cycle in the Fourier transform? Well … what I realized after considering this for a while is that there is not a slow sine wave fifty-four years in length in the data. Instead, the 54 years is just the length of time that goes by before a long, complex superposition of sine waves approximately repeats itself.

And the same thing is true about the 18-year Saros cycle. It’s not a gradual nine-year increase and subsequent nine-year decrease in the tidal force, as I had imagined it. Instead, it’s just the (approximate) repeat period of a complex waveform.

As a result, I fear that the common idea that the apparent ~60 year cycle in the HadCRUT temperatures is related to the 54-year tidal cycles simply isn’t true … because that 54 year repeating cycle is not a sine wave. Instead, looks like this:

repeating 54 year tidal cycleFigure 3. The 54 year 34 day repetitive tidal cycle. This is the average of the 54-year 34-day cycles over the 200 years of data 2000-2200.

Now, as you can see, that is hardly the nice sine wave that folks would like to think modulates the HadCRUT4 temperatures …

This exemplifies a huge problem that I see happening. People say “OK, there’s an 18+ year Saros cycle, so I can divide that by 2. Then I’ll figure the beat frequency of that 9+ year cycle with the 8.55 year cycle of the precession of the lunar apsides, and then apply that to the temperature data …”

I’m sure that you can see the problems with that approach. You can’t take the Saros cycle, or the 54+ year cycle, and cut it in half and get a beat frequency against something else, because it’s not a sine wave, as people think.

Look, folks, with all the planets and moons up there, we can find literally hundreds and hundreds of varying length astronomical cycles. But the reality, as we see above, is not as simple as just grabbing frequencies that fit our theory, or making a beat frequency from two astronomical cycles.

So let me suggest that people who want to use astronomical cycles do what I did—plot out the real-life, actual cycle that you’re talking about. Don’t just grab the period of a couple of cycles, take the beat frequency, and call it good …

For example, if you want to claim that the combined tidal forces of Jupiter and Saturn on the sun have an effect on the climate, you can’t just grab the periods and fit the phase and amplitude to the HadCRUT data. Instead, you need to do the hard lifting, calculate the actual Jupiter-Saturn tidal forces on the sun, and see if it still makes sense.

Best regards to everyone, it’s still raining here. Last week, people were claiming that the existence of the California drought “proved” that global warming was real … this week, to hear them talk, the existence of the California floods proves the same thing.

In other words … buckle down, it’s gonna be a long fight for climate sanity, Godot’s not likely to show up for a while …

w.

THE USUAL: If you disagree with something that I or someone else said, please quote the exact words you disagree with, and tell us why. That way, we can all understand what you object to, and the exact nature of your objection.

CALCULATIONS: For ease of calculations, I downloaded the data for the sun and moon in the form of cartesian geocentric (Earth-centered) coordinates. This gave me the x, y, and z values for the moon and sun at each instant. I then calculated the distances as the square root of the sum of the squares of the xyz coordinates. The cosine of the angle between them at any instant is

(sun_x * moon_x + sun_y * moon_y + sun_z * moon_z) / (sun_distance * moon_distance)

and the combined tidal force is then

sqrt( sun_force^2 + moon_force^2 + 2* sun_force * moon_force * cos(angle))

DATA AND CODE: The original sun and moon data from JPL are here (moon) and here (sun), 20 Mb text files. The relevant data from those two files, in the form of a 13 Mb R “save()” file, is here and the R code is here.

EQUATIONS: The tidal force is equal to 2 * G * m1 * m2 * r / d^3, where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects, d is the distance between them, and r is the radius of the object where we’re calculating the tides (assuming that r is much, much smaller than d).

A good derivation of the equation for tidal force is given here.

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1sky1
February 18, 2014 4:48 pm

RichardLH says:
February 15, 2014 at 3:29 pm
Once again, you present impressive-looking graphics that utterly fail to
demonstrate what you think they do about ostensible tidal influences upon
transfer of THERMAL energy to or away from the surface.
All that Rudnick’s data show is a brief time-history of the vertical
displacement of near-bottom isotherms by internal tides on the Hawaiian
Ridge. Like all internal waves, they require a sharp density-gradient for
their very existence. Unlike the ubiquitous, astronomically-forced
barotropic tides, they are excited only sporadically and unpredictably by
strong interactions with sharp bathymetric features. As they propagate
away, the baroclinic flow of the coherently orbiting water masses tends to
remain irrotational nevertheless, although bottom friction may create
dissipative turbulent eddies. Inasmuch as they draw MECHANICAL energy away
from the barotropic tides, internal tides are of scientific interest
primarily in closing the tidal-energy budget. Outside of exceptional
circumstances in coastal waters, their effect upon surface temperatures is
nil!
You plainly have no sound conception of tidal wave kinematics in either barotropic or baroclinic states and your presumptions are totally misguided vis a vis turbulent mixing. Furthermore, your notion that 1400m is “hardly the tide zone” is simply ludicrous, as the deep-ocean measurements of bottom pressure clearly show here: http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/dart.shtml. Please spare us all from the comical air of visionary oceanographic knowledge and from dismal displays of your Wiki-erudition.

RichardLH
February 19, 2014 1:49 am

1sky1 says:
February 18, 2014 at 4:48 pm
“Please spare us all from the comical air of visionary oceanographic knowledge and from dismal displays of your Wiki-erudition.”
As I know all too well how this undersea phenomena works with is sometimes considerable mixing of the various layers as they ‘break’ just like all other waves when meeting obstructions I’ll just treat your offerings as the deluded mutterings of one determined not to see what is there.
These layers flow in ways that are sometimes almost unconnected and particularly where they interact with the Internal Tides around important opposite flow patterns like the Greenland-Scotland ridge has and does provide a great deal of study and work for many, many scientists now and in the past.
I’m sure they too are completely ignorant of tidal wave kinematics. And think that turbulent mixing and flow interruptions of less than 0c water with greater then 6c water has no effect of things climatic at all.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/FaeroBankChannelTemperatures_zpsfb35726a.png

RichardLH
February 19, 2014 1:57 am

1sky1 says:
February 18, 2014 at 4:48 pm
Try this for academic articles
http://bit.ly/1oQVVdN

1sky1
February 19, 2014 4:12 pm

RichardLH:
Despite my oft-repeated proviso that the point at issue is putative tidal
mixing OUTSIDE of coastal waters–which potentially could have some effect
on SURFACE temperatures at CLIMATIC time scales on a GLOBAL scale–the
penny never seems to drop in your mind. You keep blathering about
near-bottom temperatures and exceptional internal-wave effects in the
coastal waters of islands.
Get back to me when you have demonstrated some credible mechanism of mixing
Celsius 0-6-degree water upward into the surface layer in the open ocean.
Meanwhile, check out your presumptions with the chaps at NOC in
Southampton to see who harbors delusions here.
P.S. I’m well acquainted with Rob Hall’s work on internal tides in Monterey Bay, where I conducted long-wave measurement studies decades ago.

RichardLH
February 20, 2014 2:05 am

1sky1 says:
February 19, 2014 at 4:12 pm
“Despite my oft-repeated proviso that the point at issue is putative tidal
mixing OUTSIDE of coastal waters–which potentially could have some effect
on SURFACE temperatures at CLIMATIC time scales on a GLOBAL scale–the
penny never seems to drop in your mind.”
The cross flow pattern on the Greenland Scotland ridge IS the northern part of the thermohaline flow.
If you do not believe that has global climatic impact then I will just have to differ.

RichardLH
February 20, 2014 7:26 am

1sky1 says:
February 19, 2014 at 4:12 pm
As for the Fram Strait and ice flow from the Arctic (another potentially tidal flow influenced pattern of interest)
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/tides-vectors-scalars-arctic-flushing-and-resonance/
Again, of no real climatic influence at all I’m sure.

1sky1
February 20, 2014 5:29 pm

Richard LH:
By dynamic definition, THC is the adjunct to wind-driven circulation that is entirely driven by density, i.e., by gravity alone. It acts only vertically, bringing hypersaline warmer water ocassionally into cooler layers below. Patently, you believe in a “global conveyor belt” that Carl Wunsch aptly characterized as “a fairy tale for adults.”
While I have extended my encouragement and admiration for Chiefio’s deconstruction of GISS’ anomaly-manufacturing algorithm, the physical question of flushing of ice through the Fram Strait lies well above a programmer’s pay grade. Likewise, the discussion of Willis’ follow-up thread is amateurish speculation. I have no time for such.

RichardLH
February 21, 2014 2:20 am

1sky1 says:
February 20, 2014 at 5:29 pm
So you tell me why there is a ~60 cycle in the Fram Strait ice flow then.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/ArticSeaIcevariability2014_zpsb2247428.png
Fairies?

RichardLH
February 21, 2014 2:25 am

1sky1 says:
February 20, 2014 at 5:29 pm
“By dynamic definition, THC is the adjunct to wind-driven circulation that is entirely driven by density, i.e., by gravity alone. It acts only vertically, bringing hypersaline warmer water ocassionally into cooler layers below.”
As it supplies ALL of the bottom water that eventually makes its way to the surface to be returned to the Arctic/Antarctic I suspect your “ocassionally” view is somewhat myopic and very short term.
Look at it from a greater than 60 year viewpoint and all is not quite so easy to dismiss.

RichardLH
February 21, 2014 2:30 am

1sky1 says:
February 20, 2014 at 5:29 pm
Why greater than 60 years I hear you cry. Because that is what the data says is there. Most of the ‘cyclic energy’ in the system is in the ‘less than 75 years’ bracket.
http://climatedatablog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/fig-9-additional-proxy-data-sets-added-with-15-year-lp-filters-applied.png
That may well be a mixture of 55 – 65 -75 patterns but, as you well know, the data high quality data series are WAY to short to tell on that yet.

1sky1
February 21, 2014 5:02 pm

RichardLH:
I should have granted much earlier your genius in shifting from original topic (tidal predictability and putative mixing) to irrelevancies (deep temperature fronts,THC, sea-ice cover, and now multidecadal temperature variations) in your display of Wiki-erudition. And who, after all, is Carl Wunsch to dismiss the magical physics of cold, hypersaline “bottom water that eventually makes its way to the surface?” An absolutely brilliant performance on WUWT’s stage!

RichardLH
February 21, 2014 6:29 pm

1sky1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 5:02 pm
Well I will just simply observe that for each ton of ice that floats merrily on its way South (or North) on the surface to melt, there is another ton of cold, dense brine that heads South also, at the bottom of the ocean.
No doubt Carl Wunsch decided that doesn’t occur either. How else does the ocean deep retain its temperature profile? Why do all the cross sectional diagrams show just that behaviour? Experts! So quick with the myopic viewpoint.
I notice you skipped the question about cyclic variability in the ice.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/ArticSeaIcevariability2014_zpsb2247428.png
or the one about similar variability in the wider temperature figures.
http://climatedatablog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/fig-9-additional-proxy-data-sets-added-with-15-year-lp-filters-applied.png

RichardLH
February 21, 2014 6:36 pm

1sky1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 5:02 pm
Shall I just quote from Real Climate where Carl’s observations on this were discussed so long ago.
“Thus while density changes don’t ‘drive’ the circulation (in an energetic sense) they can ‘drive’ (in a modulating sense) changes in that circulation.”

RichardLH
February 22, 2014 4:15 am

1sky1 says:
February 21, 2014 at 5:02 pm
What Carl Wunsch actually said as opposed to your very poor resume of his observations.
http://ocean.mit.edu/~cwunsch/papersonline/thermohaline.pdf
“The conclusion from this and other lines of evidence is that the ocean’s mass flux is sustained primarily by the wind, and secondarily by tidal forcing. Both in models and the real ocean, surface buoyancy boundary conditions strongly influence the transport of heat and salt, because the fluid must become dense enough to sink, but these boundary conditions do not actually drive the circulation.”

1sky1
February 22, 2014 1:57 pm

Wunch’s debunking of the amateurish “global conveyor belt” notion can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=ugHsLF1RNacC&pg=PA324&lpg=PA324&dq=Carl+Wunsch,+Fairy+Tale&source=bl&ots=b58GioKWRo&sig=f8bdHPvyMCi4Sllpo1C11ZzuHUY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7BUJU-fjLcT7oAT42YHgAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Carl%20Wunsch%2C%20Fairy%20Tale&f=false
There’s not an iota of support for your fantasized return of bottom water to the surface in the THC link you provide. You plainly have no dynamical grasp of what Wunsch says about the real-world oceanic circulation. And I have no interest in indulging your pretentious and contentious nonsense.

RichardLH
February 22, 2014 3:13 pm

1sky1 says:
February 22, 2014 at 1:57 pm
Thank you for your careful, reasoned and non-scientific arguments!
He was actually talking about the whole global conveyor concept, not about thermohaline flow as well you know (or should).
Or do you think that the brine created by freezing ice just disappears? Or does not get created in the first place somehow? Or that it isn’t saltier and colder on the bottom north of the Greenland-Scotland ridge than south of it. Please!
And if the brine goes down where and how on Earth do you expect it to come back? From the top somehow. Like missing heat in reverse I suppose.
You don’t know Nate Drake PhD do you? He was about as logical and right as you are.

RichardLH
February 22, 2014 3:15 pm

P.S.
““The conclusion from this and other lines of evidence is that the ocean’s mass flux is sustained primarily by the wind, and secondarily by tidal forcing.
His words, not mine.

RichardLH
February 22, 2014 5:28 pm

1sky1:
P.P.S. I notice you have still skipped the questions about cyclic variability in the ice.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/ArticSeaIcevariability2014_zpsb2247428.png
and the one about similar variability in the wider temperature figures.
http://climatedatablog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/fig-9-additional-proxy-data-sets-added-with-15-year-lp-filters-applied.png

RichardLH
February 23, 2014 4:01 am

For those who failed to follow the link that 1syk1 provided, the part he is referring to is about how a cartoon level description of Global Ocean circulation does not really convey a full description of the complexities that actually occur.
That statement is not in doubt.
What Carl Wunsch did not do and does not do is suggest that somehow the thermohaline circulation does not exist, or that the MOC is not real. It is just a little more complex than a single line drawn on a globe.

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