Time and the Tides Wait for Godot

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

I’ve been listening to lots of stuff lately about tidal cycles. These exist, to be sure. However, they are fairly complex, and they only repeat (and even then only approximately) every 54 years 34 days. They also repeat (even more approximately) every 1/3 of that 54+ year cycle, which is 18 years 11 days 8 hours. This is called a “Saros cycle”. So folks talk about those cycles, and the 9 year half-Saros-cycle, and the like. The 54+ year cycle gets a lot of airtime, because people claim it is reflected in a sinusoidal approximately 54-year cycle in the for example the HadCRUT temperature records.

Now, I originally approached this tidal question from the other end. I used to run a shipyard in the Solomon Islands. The Government there was the only source of tide tables at the time, and they didn’t get around to printing them until late in the year, September or so. As a result, I had to make my own. The only thing I had for data was a printed version of the tide tables for the previous year.

What I found out then was that for any location, the tides can be calculated as a combination of “tidal constituents” of varying periods. As you might imagine, the strongest tidal constituents are half-daily, daily, monthly, and yearly. These represent the rotations of the earth, sun, and moon. There’s a list of the various tidal constituents here, none of which are longer than a year.

day by day tidal force earthFigure 1. Total tidal force exerted on the Earth by the combination of the sun and the moon. 

So what puzzled me even back then was, why are there no longer-period cycles used to predict the tides? Why don’t we use cycles of 18+ and 54.1 years to predict the tides?

Being a back to basics, start-from-the-start kind of guy, I reckoned that I’d just get the astronomical data, figure out the tidal force myself, and see what cycles it contains. It’s not all that complex, and the good folks at the Jet Propulsion Lab have done all the hard work with calculating the positions of the sun and moon. So off I went to JPL to get a couple hundred years data, and I calculated the tidal forces day by day. Figure 1 above shows a look at a section of my results:

These results were quite interesting to me, because they clearly show the two main influences (solar and lunar). Figure 1 also shows that the variations do not have a cycle of exactly a year—the high and low spots shift over time with respect to the years. Also, the maximum amplitude varies year to year.

For ease of calculation, I used geocentric (Earth centered) coordinates. I got the positions of the sun and moon for the same time each day from 1 January 2000 for the next 200 years, out to 1 Jan 2200. Then I calculated the tidal force for each of those days (math in the appendix). That gave me the result you see in Figure 1.

However, what I was interested in was the decomposition of the tidal force into its component cycles. In particular, I was looking for any 9 year, 18+ year, or 54.1 year cycles. So I did what you might expect. I did a Fourier analysis of the tidal cycles. Figure 2 shows those results at increasingly longer scales from top to bottom.

Fourier analysis tidal forceFigure 2. Fourier analysis of the tidal forces acting on the earth. Each succeeding graph shows a longer time period. Note the increasing scale.

The top panel shows the short-term components. These are strongest at one day, and at 29.5 days, with side peaks near the 29.5 day lunar cycle, and with weaker half-month cycles as well.

The second panel shows cycles out to 18 months. Note that the new Y-axis scale is eight times the old scale, to show the much smaller annual cycles. There are 12 month and 13.5 month cycles visible in the data, along with much smaller half-cycles (6 months and 6.75 months). You can see the difference in the scales by comparing the half-month (15 day) cycles in the top two panels.

The third panel shows cycles out to 20 years, to investigate the question of the 9 and 18+ year cycles … no joy, although there is the tiniest of cycles at about 8.75 years. Again, I’ve increased the scale, this time by 5X. You can visualize the difference by comparing the half-year (6-7 month) cycles in the second and third panels. At this scale, any 9 or 18+ year cycles would be very visible … bad news. There are no such cycles in decomposition of the data.

Finally, the fourth panel is the longest, to look for the 54 year cycle. Again, there is no such underlying sine-wave cycle.

Now, those last two panels were a surprise to me. Why are we not finding any 9, 18+, or 54 year cycle in the Fourier transform? Well … what I realized after considering this for a while is that there is not a slow sine wave fifty-four years in length in the data. Instead, the 54 years is just the length of time that goes by before a long, complex superposition of sine waves approximately repeats itself.

And the same thing is true about the 18-year Saros cycle. It’s not a gradual nine-year increase and subsequent nine-year decrease in the tidal force, as I had imagined it. Instead, it’s just the (approximate) repeat period of a complex waveform.

As a result, I fear that the common idea that the apparent ~60 year cycle in the HadCRUT temperatures is related to the 54-year tidal cycles simply isn’t true … because that 54 year repeating cycle is not a sine wave. Instead, looks like this:

repeating 54 year tidal cycleFigure 3. The 54 year 34 day repetitive tidal cycle. This is the average of the 54-year 34-day cycles over the 200 years of data 2000-2200.

Now, as you can see, that is hardly the nice sine wave that folks would like to think modulates the HadCRUT4 temperatures …

This exemplifies a huge problem that I see happening. People say “OK, there’s an 18+ year Saros cycle, so I can divide that by 2. Then I’ll figure the beat frequency of that 9+ year cycle with the 8.55 year cycle of the precession of the lunar apsides, and then apply that to the temperature data …”

I’m sure that you can see the problems with that approach. You can’t take the Saros cycle, or the 54+ year cycle, and cut it in half and get a beat frequency against something else, because it’s not a sine wave, as people think.

Look, folks, with all the planets and moons up there, we can find literally hundreds and hundreds of varying length astronomical cycles. But the reality, as we see above, is not as simple as just grabbing frequencies that fit our theory, or making a beat frequency from two astronomical cycles.

So let me suggest that people who want to use astronomical cycles do what I did—plot out the real-life, actual cycle that you’re talking about. Don’t just grab the period of a couple of cycles, take the beat frequency, and call it good …

For example, if you want to claim that the combined tidal forces of Jupiter and Saturn on the sun have an effect on the climate, you can’t just grab the periods and fit the phase and amplitude to the HadCRUT data. Instead, you need to do the hard lifting, calculate the actual Jupiter-Saturn tidal forces on the sun, and see if it still makes sense.

Best regards to everyone, it’s still raining here. Last week, people were claiming that the existence of the California drought “proved” that global warming was real … this week, to hear them talk, the existence of the California floods proves the same thing.

In other words … buckle down, it’s gonna be a long fight for climate sanity, Godot’s not likely to show up for a while …

w.

THE USUAL: If you disagree with something that I or someone else said, please quote the exact words you disagree with, and tell us why. That way, we can all understand what you object to, and the exact nature of your objection.

CALCULATIONS: For ease of calculations, I downloaded the data for the sun and moon in the form of cartesian geocentric (Earth-centered) coordinates. This gave me the x, y, and z values for the moon and sun at each instant. I then calculated the distances as the square root of the sum of the squares of the xyz coordinates. The cosine of the angle between them at any instant is

(sun_x * moon_x + sun_y * moon_y + sun_z * moon_z) / (sun_distance * moon_distance)

and the combined tidal force is then

sqrt( sun_force^2 + moon_force^2 + 2* sun_force * moon_force * cos(angle))

DATA AND CODE: The original sun and moon data from JPL are here (moon) and here (sun), 20 Mb text files. The relevant data from those two files, in the form of a 13 Mb R “save()” file, is here and the R code is here.

EQUATIONS: The tidal force is equal to 2 * G * m1 * m2 * r / d^3, where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects, d is the distance between them, and r is the radius of the object where we’re calculating the tides (assuming that r is much, much smaller than d).

A good derivation of the equation for tidal force is given here.

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RichardLH
February 12, 2014 11:28 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 11:17 am
“You need to show that my calculations are wrong, not simply to point to an area with high tides and say See! Big tides! Willis wrong!”
Straw man alert. I’ve never claimed that.
I have claimed that your toy 1D vector is not a good representation of the complexities of Earth-Moon tidal interactions.
I have pointed out that the Earth’s rotational axis is not aligned with your toy 1D vector.
I have pointed out that your toy 1D vector actually follows one of the parts of the Saros cycle (the Moon) so it will not display some (most?) of its effects on points on the Earth’s rotating surface.
I have pointed out that the vertical vector at the ‘pole’ is an orbital periodic, not a daily one.
I have pointed out that a circle at 60 degrees to the orbital plane has no vertical component at all.
I have pointed out that Wood et al says you are wrong (at least in part).
You respond with – well my maths is correct.
It is but that doesn’t make it any less of a toy.

Greg Goodman
February 12, 2014 12:01 pm

Willis. I’m not interested in arguing about whether you understand amplitude modulation or not . Been there and it didn’t work. You find communication with me unpleasant and I likewise, don’t appreciate being told to “*iss off” . So don’t start again.
End of story.
You are of course quite correct 8.85 is the precession of apsides not the nodal precession.

RichardLH
February 12, 2014 12:07 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 11:23 am
“A clue about the context would be useful here, Richard, which is why I ask folks to quote what they object to.
Clearly you think that tidal flow, and not tidal height, is … well … it is … clearly you think FLOW NOT HEIGHT is very important for some unknown reason.
What that reason might be, however, surpasseth all understanding …”
I suppose it is too much to expect that people actually read, understand and/or remember what is or has been said, or do I need to repeat myself always so the context is blindly obvious?
Tidal flow will assist or oppose the transport of cold water/ice/brine south and warm water north through the Fram Straits and over the Cills at the Greenland /Scotland ridge, etc.
http://www.ifm.zmaw.de/mitarbeiter/detlef-quadfasel/projects/overflow-over-the-greenland-scotland-ridge/
This flow is derived, in part anyway, from the differential tidal height in the basins concerned. The other part is from the tangential vectors that come at 60 degrees to the orbital plane. (Oh, and the thermohaline circulation as well.)
As the vector circle that is drawn on the Earths’ surface is modulated by the Saros cycle (see eclipse which is the 90 degree vector point then add 60 degrees to get to the ‘no horizontal – all tangential’ vector circle) and this wanders all over the Earth’s surface this turns into a very non-trivial question really quickly.
Now we are playing in an Earth related 3D space, not the rather pointless 1D vector you have drawn so far.
And then we get the multiplier effect from shallower oceans, any additional air pressure variations and we might, just might, be close to how we could find some long term pattern in the other data that matches what the data says is there in the temperature record.
Good luck on all that. The high quality data that might just support or refute the question is only some 40-50 or so years long at best and does not cover all of the parts in question fully to any real depth (pun).
I am not trying to be difficult. You call me names all the time. I respond simply and, I hope, clearly. You then say ‘well I can’t be bothered to read all you write but regardless I’ll tell you what I think anyway – and your wrong’.
Makes for a difficult conversation.

RichardLH
February 12, 2014 12:11 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 11:45 am
“Never said it was a representation of the tides or the tidal interactions. Never said it predicted or calculated the tides. In fact, I never said it was a vector, nor did I calculate a vector, that’s just your overheated imagination at work.
I calculated a scalar, the amplitude of the tidal force. I was clear about what I was calculating, which was the size of tidal force exerted by the combination of the sun and the moon.”
Yes. The scalar that is the magnitude of the two 1D vectors that are pointing directly at the ‘satellite’ in the combined vector maps of two external bodies caused by merging two of these pictures at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Field_tidal.png, one each for Moon and Sun.

RichardLH
February 12, 2014 12:14 pm

Willis: To be crystal clear. Your scalar is the magnitude of the vector sum of the two 1D vectors in the two combined images. Get it now?

RichardLH
February 12, 2014 12:20 pm

Wllis: Bye the bye. What is your explanation for the wriggles in the lines at
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/200YearsofTemperatureSatelliteThermometerandProxy_zpsd17a97c0.gif
Chance or something else?

RichardLH
February 12, 2014 12:24 pm

Willis: EDIT:
(see eclipse which is the 90 degree vector point then add 60 degrees to get to the ‘no VERTICAL – all tangential’ vector circle)

Greg Goodman
February 12, 2014 12:37 pm

“I calculated a scalar, the amplitude of the tidal force.”
And you made an error copying the maths. I posted a correction here
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/09/time-and-the-tides-wait-for-godot/#comment-1564669
You will obviously want to check that where ever you get your formulae from.
That corrects your maths but that would still mean you are subtracting moon from sun at full moon as CliveBest pointed out. The tidal force you derived acts in opposite directions on opposite sides of the earth so it is wrong to subtract them.
I suggested a further mod to get tides to add correctly unless you see some value in adding opposing forces in a way that does not affect tides. Though that probably qualifies as cycle mania.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/09/time-and-the-tides-wait-for-godot/#comment-1564688
You seem pretty keen on correcting everyone else’s errors but not your own.

February 12, 2014 1:26 pm

It was here that Goodman baptized me with gatorade: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/05/26/new-el-nino-causal-pattern-discovered/#comment-1323875
…where I finally estimated a 20km tidal sea displacement, after arguing like Willis that tides don’t move currents horizontally. My initial mistake was not realizing that shallow oceans (3km) don’t behave anything like totally fluid planets. Considerable fluid displacement is involved in raising sea level one part in 10k. Even so, Keeling and Whorf consider this largely incapable of affecting climate, and suggest that vertical mixing is the mechanism to appeal to:
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/16/8321.long
–AGF

Greg Goodman
February 12, 2014 2:31 pm

Thanks AGF, this needs something like your estimations. What period tide was the 20km for was that the baisc diurnal / semi-diurnal?

February 12, 2014 2:50 pm

That was fortnightly, but I don’t put much stock in it–I should have used triangles. I’ll go home and see if I can improve on it. –AGF

Greg Goodman
February 12, 2014 4:26 pm

Here’s my attempt at ‘bulges’ without the need for fictitious forces (approach recommended by one of Richard’s links).
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=776
The variation in gravitational attraction leads to slightly different radius of revolution each side of the earth.

1sky1
February 12, 2014 5:48 pm

The astronomical tides have been thoroughly studied scientifically for centuries. Of all the geophysical variables, they are consequently one the easiest to model sucessfully, providing very reliable long-term predictions with just a score of constituents.One thing for certain: there’s no physical oceanographer who would in the inane discussion here.

Greg Goodman
February 13, 2014 12:46 am

1sky1: “The astronomical tides have been thoroughly studied scientifically for centuries. Of all the geophysical variables, they are consequently one the easiest to model sucessfully”
But the models are empirical, geographically specific prediction tables. That is fine for maritime needs which are the principal need.
The question here is whether there could be an inter-annual or decadal scale horizontal displacement of water mass that could transport climatologically significant amounts of thermal energy.
Are you aware of a model that successfully models that?

RichardLH
February 13, 2014 1:47 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:49 pm
“I don’t have a clue what a “1D” vector is, Richard. I’ve never even heard of such a creature.
I do know that I used 3D vectors, as I show in my code … so no, I don’t “get it” in the slightest.
And no, talking about “1D vectors” is not only not “crystal clear”, it’s not clear in the slightest.”
I rather gathered that. As the Universe is a 3D space which you are attempting to model and forces in 3D spaces are modelled best by vectors I would have thought it would have been obvious that you can go from 3D to 2D to 1D by removal of X, Y and reduction to Z as effectively you have done.
Your scalar is the gravity field (never goes negative), a pure 1D vector is the effect of that field on a body (can go negative as it has a direction i,e. towards Sirius). A rotating 1D vector along a line, say, from Moon to Earth is very similar to a scalar in that, in my universe at least, it can never go negative (bodies crash into each other first)..
Shall I leave it to the most appropriate and detailed answer from
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/35562/is-a-1d-vector-also-a-scalar
—-
Whether a quantity is a “scalar” or a “vector” (or something more exotic) is a question of what representation of the group of isometries it resides in. For n-dimensional Euclidean space, this is the group O(n). For n=1, O(n) has just the elements 1 and -1. A vector acts nontrivially under -1, while a scalar is unchanged.
Speaking more broadly, we can consider antisymmetric tensor fields (sections of the exterior powers of the tangent bundle). The top exterior power, the so-called tangent frames (or if you prefer their duals, the volume forms), are in bijection with the group of scalars if our space is orientable. That is, fixing an orientation (which is a global section of this bundle) O, every other top rank tensor is of the form f(x)O for some scalar function f. If we’re in Euclidean space, only the parity transformation -1 can act nontrivially on one of these. It acts trivially if the dimension is even, so scalars are top tensor fields in even dimensions and psuedoscalars are top tensor fields in odd dimensions.
—-
May I make a recommendation, when people use words you don’t understand but they seem fairly confident in, plug the words in question into Google and chose what you consider to be the most authoritative source. Then ask if that is what they mean or are they or you just plain lost.
Do I need to explain about Cartesian coordinate systems and Rotating reference frames as well?

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