Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been listening to lots of stuff lately about tidal cycles. These exist, to be sure. However, they are fairly complex, and they only repeat (and even then only approximately) every 54 years 34 days. They also repeat (even more approximately) every 1/3 of that 54+ year cycle, which is 18 years 11 days 8 hours. This is called a “Saros cycle”. So folks talk about those cycles, and the 9 year half-Saros-cycle, and the like. The 54+ year cycle gets a lot of airtime, because people claim it is reflected in a sinusoidal approximately 54-year cycle in the for example the HadCRUT temperature records.
Now, I originally approached this tidal question from the other end. I used to run a shipyard in the Solomon Islands. The Government there was the only source of tide tables at the time, and they didn’t get around to printing them until late in the year, September or so. As a result, I had to make my own. The only thing I had for data was a printed version of the tide tables for the previous year.
What I found out then was that for any location, the tides can be calculated as a combination of “tidal constituents” of varying periods. As you might imagine, the strongest tidal constituents are half-daily, daily, monthly, and yearly. These represent the rotations of the earth, sun, and moon. There’s a list of the various tidal constituents here, none of which are longer than a year.
Figure 1. Total tidal force exerted on the Earth by the combination of the sun and the moon.
So what puzzled me even back then was, why are there no longer-period cycles used to predict the tides? Why don’t we use cycles of 18+ and 54.1 years to predict the tides?
Being a back to basics, start-from-the-start kind of guy, I reckoned that I’d just get the astronomical data, figure out the tidal force myself, and see what cycles it contains. It’s not all that complex, and the good folks at the Jet Propulsion Lab have done all the hard work with calculating the positions of the sun and moon. So off I went to JPL to get a couple hundred years data, and I calculated the tidal forces day by day. Figure 1 above shows a look at a section of my results:
These results were quite interesting to me, because they clearly show the two main influences (solar and lunar). Figure 1 also shows that the variations do not have a cycle of exactly a year—the high and low spots shift over time with respect to the years. Also, the maximum amplitude varies year to year.
For ease of calculation, I used geocentric (Earth centered) coordinates. I got the positions of the sun and moon for the same time each day from 1 January 2000 for the next 200 years, out to 1 Jan 2200. Then I calculated the tidal force for each of those days (math in the appendix). That gave me the result you see in Figure 1.
However, what I was interested in was the decomposition of the tidal force into its component cycles. In particular, I was looking for any 9 year, 18+ year, or 54.1 year cycles. So I did what you might expect. I did a Fourier analysis of the tidal cycles. Figure 2 shows those results at increasingly longer scales from top to bottom.
Figure 2. Fourier analysis of the tidal forces acting on the earth. Each succeeding graph shows a longer time period. Note the increasing scale.
The top panel shows the short-term components. These are strongest at one day, and at 29.5 days, with side peaks near the 29.5 day lunar cycle, and with weaker half-month cycles as well.
The second panel shows cycles out to 18 months. Note that the new Y-axis scale is eight times the old scale, to show the much smaller annual cycles. There are 12 month and 13.5 month cycles visible in the data, along with much smaller half-cycles (6 months and 6.75 months). You can see the difference in the scales by comparing the half-month (15 day) cycles in the top two panels.
The third panel shows cycles out to 20 years, to investigate the question of the 9 and 18+ year cycles … no joy, although there is the tiniest of cycles at about 8.75 years. Again, I’ve increased the scale, this time by 5X. You can visualize the difference by comparing the half-year (6-7 month) cycles in the second and third panels. At this scale, any 9 or 18+ year cycles would be very visible … bad news. There are no such cycles in decomposition of the data.
Finally, the fourth panel is the longest, to look for the 54 year cycle. Again, there is no such underlying sine-wave cycle.
Now, those last two panels were a surprise to me. Why are we not finding any 9, 18+, or 54 year cycle in the Fourier transform? Well … what I realized after considering this for a while is that there is not a slow sine wave fifty-four years in length in the data. Instead, the 54 years is just the length of time that goes by before a long, complex superposition of sine waves approximately repeats itself.
And the same thing is true about the 18-year Saros cycle. It’s not a gradual nine-year increase and subsequent nine-year decrease in the tidal force, as I had imagined it. Instead, it’s just the (approximate) repeat period of a complex waveform.
As a result, I fear that the common idea that the apparent ~60 year cycle in the HadCRUT temperatures is related to the 54-year tidal cycles simply isn’t true … because that 54 year repeating cycle is not a sine wave. Instead, looks like this:
Figure 3. The 54 year 34 day repetitive tidal cycle. This is the average of the 54-year 34-day cycles over the 200 years of data 2000-2200.
Now, as you can see, that is hardly the nice sine wave that folks would like to think modulates the HadCRUT4 temperatures …
This exemplifies a huge problem that I see happening. People say “OK, there’s an 18+ year Saros cycle, so I can divide that by 2. Then I’ll figure the beat frequency of that 9+ year cycle with the 8.55 year cycle of the precession of the lunar apsides, and then apply that to the temperature data …”
I’m sure that you can see the problems with that approach. You can’t take the Saros cycle, or the 54+ year cycle, and cut it in half and get a beat frequency against something else, because it’s not a sine wave, as people think.
Look, folks, with all the planets and moons up there, we can find literally hundreds and hundreds of varying length astronomical cycles. But the reality, as we see above, is not as simple as just grabbing frequencies that fit our theory, or making a beat frequency from two astronomical cycles.
So let me suggest that people who want to use astronomical cycles do what I did—plot out the real-life, actual cycle that you’re talking about. Don’t just grab the period of a couple of cycles, take the beat frequency, and call it good …
For example, if you want to claim that the combined tidal forces of Jupiter and Saturn on the sun have an effect on the climate, you can’t just grab the periods and fit the phase and amplitude to the HadCRUT data. Instead, you need to do the hard lifting, calculate the actual Jupiter-Saturn tidal forces on the sun, and see if it still makes sense.
Best regards to everyone, it’s still raining here. Last week, people were claiming that the existence of the California drought “proved” that global warming was real … this week, to hear them talk, the existence of the California floods proves the same thing.
In other words … buckle down, it’s gonna be a long fight for climate sanity, Godot’s not likely to show up for a while …
w.
THE USUAL: If you disagree with something that I or someone else said, please quote the exact words you disagree with, and tell us why. That way, we can all understand what you object to, and the exact nature of your objection.
CALCULATIONS: For ease of calculations, I downloaded the data for the sun and moon in the form of cartesian geocentric (Earth-centered) coordinates. This gave me the x, y, and z values for the moon and sun at each instant. I then calculated the distances as the square root of the sum of the squares of the xyz coordinates. The cosine of the angle between them at any instant is
(sun_x * moon_x + sun_y * moon_y + sun_z * moon_z) / (sun_distance * moon_distance)
and the combined tidal force is then
sqrt( sun_force^2 + moon_force^2 + 2* sun_force * moon_force * cos(angle))
DATA AND CODE: The original sun and moon data from JPL are here (moon) and here (sun), 20 Mb text files. The relevant data from those two files, in the form of a 13 Mb R “save()” file, is here and the R code is here.
EQUATIONS: The tidal force is equal to 2 * G * m1 * m2 * r / d^3, where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects, d is the distance between them, and r is the radius of the object where we’re calculating the tides (assuming that r is much, much smaller than d).
A good derivation of the equation for tidal force is given here.
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 7:51 pm
“Wllis: Bye the bye. What is your explanation for the wriggles in the lines at
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/200YearsofTemperatureSatelliteThermometerandProxy_zpsd17a97c0.gif Chance or something else?
Something else.”
And your choice from the almost infinite list of ‘Something else’ things it could be? Go on, make a decision for once.
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 8:02 pm
“quote my words.”
and then
“Richard, you seem to think that a) I read your posts with any regularity”
So as far as I can tell you are so certain that you are right – you don’t bother to read what others have written in any great detail or attempt to understand what they are saying – even if they are as polite as they can possibly be.
You just press on with – “I know that what your saying is wrong – no argument or logic involved to back up your opinion – you’re just plain WRONG. I say so”
P.S. I am a engineer and scientist. My family has been for generations. I grew up being taught logical explanation, thinking and engineering, in multiple disciplines. I studied and have worked in that most logical of professions, computing, my entire working live. I hold a degree or two in that profession, with gold knobs on to boot. I do not believe in anything that does not have a logical, deductive and practical explanation. I remain curious though. Trying to find good solid reasons and explanations for what I see. I try not to ignore those things that do not fit with what I currently understand. I seek answers. Scientific answers.
Willis
I don’t have a clue what a “1D” vector is, Richard. I’ve never even heard of such a creature.
In the context being discussed – Richard can correct me if I am wrong – a 1D vector, as with all vectors has direction and magnitude, but the 1D vectors directions is either +/-. Obviously when you go to higher dimensions you need to define the direction with more directional components. So in this sense – in the way you are dealing with the output: F – he is correct. And yes you do use vectors defined in 3D dimensions but you’re essentially adding their magnitude (see adding vectors) to give you magnitude and sign (1D direction). You’re not expressing the result in terms components x, y, z – end your not analysing the 3D vector.
Personally, I think it is a rather academic point given what you’re trying to do. For me the major issue with your approach is that your dealing with an AM signal (quite clearly from Fig. 1 for example) as pointed out by Greg some time ago.
RichardLH
Sorry just saw your response at February 13, 2014 at 1:47 am. Had the page open without refreshing before posting.
Willis: P.S. One of my role models whose career path I have sort of tangential followed by chance is Tommy Flowers. Ever heard of him?
cd says:
February 13, 2014 at 2:15 am
“In the context being discussed – Richard can correct me if I am wrong”
Cartesian coordinate systems and Rotating reference frames just about covers it 🙂
Greg Goodman says:
February 13, 2014 at 12:46 am
“But the models are empirical, geographically specific prediction tables. That is fine for maritime needs which are the principal need.”
Actually, if you think about it, the work done by Willis is indeed that which would mostly be required by someone condition to think in a Southern Pacific environment. Deep Ocean, Steep to islands. Tidal forces mainly governed by that ~0.3m rise or as Wiki has it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide
—-
…
Amplitude and cycle time
The theoretical amplitude of oceanic tides caused by the moon is about 54 centimetres (21 in) at the highest point, which corresponds to the amplitude that would be reached if the ocean possessed a uniform depth, there were no landmasses, and the Earth were rotating in step with the moon’s orbit. The sun similarly causes tides, of which the theoretical amplitude is about 25 centimetres (9.8 in) (46% of that of the moon) with a cycle time of 12 hours. At spring tide the two effects add to each other to a theoretical level of 79 centimetres (31 in), while at neap tide the theoretical level is reduced to 29 centimetres (11 in). Since the orbits of the Earth about the sun, and the moon about the Earth, are elliptical, tidal amplitudes change somewhat as a result of the varying Earth–sun and Earth–moon distances. This causes a variation in the tidal force and theoretical amplitude of about ±18% for the moon and ±5% for the sun. If both the sun and moon were at their closest positions and aligned at new moon, the theoretical amplitude would reach 93 centimetres (37 in).
Real amplitudes differ considerably, not only because of depth variations and continental obstacles, but also because wave propagation across the ocean has a natural period of the same order of magnitude as the rotation period: if there were no land masses, it would take about 30 hours for a long wavelength surface wave to propagate along the equator halfway around the Earth (by comparison, the Earth’s lithosphere has a natural period of about 57 minutes). Earth tides, which raise and lower the bottom of the ocean, and the tide’s own gravitational self attraction are both significant and further complicate the ocean’s response to tidal forces.
…
—-
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 8:02 pm
“So you’ve never fished in the Bering Sea, then?
Well, I have. Tides are large up there. And I can assure you that anywhere near the coast, there is huge horizontal movement with each tide. And yes, it mixes the water, and will mix it more if the tides are higher.”
And that same higher flow caused by the tides in restricted spaces such a the Fram Strait and the Greenland-Scotland ridge will augment or prevent the flow of cold/warm water though those gaps.
Which is all I have been trying to point out.
And then wondering if that higher flow has any longer term pattern to it and thus modulates the Thermohaline circulation in a way that we could see in Climate temperatures.
At least one paper in the literature seems to backup that way of thinking.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/200YearsofTemperatureSatelliteThermometerandProxy_zps0436b1f2.gif
Willis: You still haven’t addressed in the Wood et al paper (see full ref above) is wrong, in full or in part.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/GravitationtidalcyclesfromWoodetal_zps27a493b4.gif
For those interested on why I regard Tommy Flowers as being a very important and almost completely overlooked Engineer in history
Lorenz (Tunny), Flowers and Tutte, their use of graphic analysis and pure logic and science should serve as an example to us all. IMHO.
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 12, 2014 at 9:53 am
“I’ve shown above that Greg’s claim, which tallbloke merrily endorses without doing the math, is simply not true.”
=================================================================
The link you provide within that sentence may work for you but it doesn’t work for me. Other than that I stand corrected, within limits. We are agreed that horizontal tides on the sun are insignificant, and that in the straits of our ocean they can be considerable. The question is the deep ocean. I gather from your post on vertical mixing that you accept it as a possible mechanism for tidal influences on weather. But two or three questions remain unresolved: are east/west or north/south tidal currents capable of any but trivial influence on weather, and do “supertides” play any role in climate through whatever mechanism? I’m not going to humor you by pretending that the primary purpose of your post had any chance of succeeding considering the half-arsed way you went about it. We still need numbers on deep zonal flow rates, and we still have reason to believe that supertides might affect climate through vertical mixing. –AGF
1sky1 says:
February 12, 2014 at 5:48 pm
The astronomical tides have been thoroughly studied scientifically for centuries. Of all the geophysical variables, they are consequently one the easiest to model sucessfully, providing very reliable long-term predictions with just a score of constituents.One thing for certain: there’s no physical oceanographer who would in the inane discussion here.
==================================================================
A more naive claim we could not hope to find. Local tides can never be modeled theoretically, but only individually and observationally. The universally applicable tidal components must be determined at each gauge on a case by case basis. Anyone foolish enough to think he can pop over to some bay with no nearby gauges and predict the tides, well for one thing, he has never tried it. –AGF
agfosterjr says:
February 13, 2014 at 7:29 am
“Anyone foolish enough to think he can pop over to some bay with no nearby gauges and predict the tides, well for one thing, he has never tried it.”
Or to try and attempt to discover (or disprove) any long term pattern in tidal flows through a Strait that might (just?) be influenced by similar long term patterns in the Lunar Orbit 🙂
RichardLH says:
February 13, 2014 at 1:47 am
Richard, a vector has two parts—a magnitude and a direction. I have not removed any dimensionality in the slightest. I have not converted a 3-D vector to a 1-D vector.
Instead, I have calculated and discussed the MAGNITUDE of the 3-D tidal vector. The tidal force (the magnitude of which I report on above) is associated at any instant with a corresponding 3-D direction. Although I didn’t bother reporting what that direction that 3-D vector had at the given instants that I measured the magnitude, those directions certainly exist, and I didn’t modify or alter them in any way.
So your claim, that I’ve somehow converted a 3-D vector into a 1D vector, is simply not true. I’ve just given the magnitude of a 3-D vector.
The fact that you didn’t realize what I’ve done, and that rather than ask questions you’ve invented your own fantasy about a 1-D vector, should give you some pause … however, I doubt if it actually will …
w.
RichardLH says:
February 13, 2014 at 1:47 am
RichardLH says:
February 13, 2014 at 1:50 am
Are you always an unpleasant jerkwagon, or is it special for WUWT?
Richard, you are the person who didn’t understand the difference between reporting the magnitude of a 3-D vector, and converting a 3-D vector to a 1-D vector. Regarding Cartesian coordinate systems, note that in the head post it says:
So let’s look at the scoreboard. I’m the man doing the calculations using the coordinates in the Cartesian coordinate system … and you’re the man doing no calculations and just running his mouth. Not only that, to date you haven’t found a single flaw in my calculations. Nor have you given any examples of your own proficiency in that regard.
Given that, your slimy comment about whether I understand Cartesian coordinates is just more of your unrestrained ugliness.
As to your childish insistence that I give a reason for the exact shape of the smoothed temperature measurements of the last couple centuries, I’ll pass, thanks. Some of us are wise enough to know some of what we don’t know … and one of the things that no one on this planet knows is the answer to your question.
We don’t know why the temperature rose in the thirties or why it dropped in the sixties, Richard, and your puerile claim that you know the answer, and that it’s all a bozo-simple sine wave of unknown origin, is merely a mark of your naiveté … and one which I am unwilling to emulate.
w.
cd says:
February 13, 2014 at 2:15 am
Great. Another planet heard from. Why are you sticking your nose into someone else’s question? And why do you described a signed number (+ or -) as a “1-D vector”? And since all of my results were positive, why do you think they are signed numbers?
Like Richard, you seem totally ignorant of the difference between a “1-D vector”, a term which I’ve never seen anyone use but which you describe as a signed number, and the MAGNITUDE OF A 3-D VECTOR, which is what I discussed. If you will notice, not one of my results is negative … it’s not a signed number that I reported, cd. It’s a magnitude.
You should have kept your mouth shut. There was no reason for you to enter the fray, and revealing your ignorance in this matter hasn’t helped your credibility in the slightest.
w.
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:05 am
“The fact that you didn’t realize what I’ve done, and that rather than ask questions you’ve invented your own fantasy about a 1-D vector, should give you some pause … however, I doubt if it actually will …”
The fact that you will not admit that the scalar magnitude that you display is in fact a calculation of the vector sum of the 3D space in which it resides into a 1D vestor….might give you some pause as well.
Did you miss that question posed to http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/35562/is-a-1d-vector-also-a-scalar about just the question you posed about the terminology I used?
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:22 am
“Given that, your slimy comment about whether I understand Cartesian coordinates is just more of your unrestrained ugliness.
As to your childish insistence that I give a reason for the exact shape of the smoothed temperature measurements of the last couple centuries, I’ll pass, thanks. Some of us are wise enough to know some of what we don’t know … and one of the things that no one on this planet knows is the answer to your question.
We don’t know why the temperature rose in the thirties or why it dropped in the sixties, Richard, and your puerile claim that you know the answer, and that it’s all a bozo-simple sine wave of unknown origin, is merely a mark of your naiveté … and one which I am unwilling to emulate.”
Big with the slurs… short with the explanation…or logic it would seem.
RichardLH says:
February 13, 2014 at 2:19 am
Dear heavens, Richard, the last thing in the world I want to do is to follow your role models, I might end up like you, posting anonymously so you can evade responsibility.
Nor do I follow random internet hints from random internet popups. That’s a fools game—I don’t let people like you send me on some freakin’ snipe hunt for some guy I’ve never heard of.
w.
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:31 am
“Like Richard, you seem totally ignorant of the difference between a “1-D vector”, a term which I’ve never seen anyone use but which you describe as a signed number, and the MAGNITUDE OF A 3-D VECTOR”
OK – Once more as an attempt to covey to you what everybody else seems to grasp at the drop of a hat.
Your scalar value is the magnitude of the force along the single line (vector) that is represented by the reduction of the 3D Cartesian vector space into a single number/line/vector as evidenced by the line (rotating vector) between the Earth’s and Moon’s central points.
Are you trying to be deliberately obtuse or just failing to understand simple terminology?
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:35 am
“Nor do I follow random internet hints from random internet popups. That’s a fools game—I don’t let people like you send me on some freakin’ snipe hunt for some guy I’ve never heard of.”
I know. It is painful to watch. The lack of your curiosity as to what other peoples ideas and concepts are. You ALREADY know it all. What ELSE could there be to discover.
Willis Eschenbach:
You being an American, I am not surprised you are unaware of Tommy Flowers MBE.
But you being you, I think you will want to know of the lowly post office engineer who designed and built the first programmable electronic digital computer. Wicki gives a good introduction to him, and I really do think you will want to read it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers
Richard
Willis:
You do get that I rather do understand COMPLTELY what you have done and what it shows don’t you?
That I am just pointing out that there are significant deficiencies (not mathematical errors) with the very limited point of view it represents.
That what it shows is such a simple, almost trivial, toy that it can never be used to address the real questions that somehow it is supposed to magically refute.
richardscourtney says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:49 am
“You being an American, I am not surprised you are unaware of Tommy Flowers MBE.”
I deliberately did not bring any such prejudicial, racial, comments when I raised his name, as that is not the way I construct an argument.
I admire the man for what he and Tutte did and the way they did it. That is all (and all that is needed). A very quiet man who started a revolution that we still use today, everywhere.
RichardLH says:
February 13, 2014 at 9:32 am
So your claim is that the quantity that I calculated, which you now seem to admit is the magnitude of the 3-D tidal force vector, is really a 1-D vector? Really?
I did love your description, though. You say my calculated magnitude is “the vector sum of the 3D space in which it resides into a 1D vector” … the “vector sum of the 3D space in which it resides”? I’m not even gonna ask what that means, you might try to answer.
No, I saw it and made the mistake of following it. Since what I’ve calculated is the magnitude and direction of a 3-D vector, whether a scalar is a 1D vector is just another of your red herrings. Here, for your delectation, are the vector directions associated with the first six of my calculated magnitudes …
A vector has a direction and a magnitude. I’ve calculated both, you have to calculate the direction in order to calculate the magnitude. And I’ve discussed the magnitudes of the 3D tidal vectors, but I haven’t discussed their directions. Above are a sample of the 3D vector directions of those tidal vectors, each associated with a given magnitude.
And no matter how many times you repeat your false claim, those 3D vector directions didn’t suddenly disappear, or turn into a 1-D vector, just because I only discussed their magnitudes …
w.