From Tufts University , and the department of industrial strength grant funded worry, comes this “could” question coached in caveats:
Could Sandy happen again? Maybe, says Tufts geologist
Due to rising sea levels, smaller storms could produce significant flooding
MEDFORD/SOMERVILLE, Mass. – Almost a year after Hurricane Sandy, parts of New York and New Jersey are still recovering from billions of dollars in flood damage. Tufts University geologist Andrew Kemp sees the possibility of damage from storms smaller than Sandy in the future.
“Rising sea levels exacerbate flooding,” says Kemp. “As sea level rises, smaller and weaker storms will cause flood damage.” An assistant professor in Tufts’ Department of Earth and Ocean Sciences, Kemp co-authored a study on sea-level change close to New York that was published recently in the Journal of Quaternary Science.
Sandy hit New York as a team led by Kemp was researching sea-level change and flooding that had occurred in seven historically damaging hurricanes in New York since 1788. Last October, Sandy’s storm surge hit the coast at high tide, but storm and tidal conditions were not the only cause of the devastation, Kemp says. Seawaters off New York’s coast have risen 16 inches since 1778, the year of New York City’s first major recorded storm, his research shows.
To make this determination Kemp and his team studied salt-marsh sediments from Barnegat Bay in northern New Jersey, south of the tide gauge at Battery Park in New York. Using sediment cores, long cylinders drilled into the marsh floor that offer scientists a look back through time, they were able to reconstruct sea-level changes since 1788.
Kemp cites two factors for rising seas. One is the natural sinking of land called glacio-isostatic adjustment. A second factor, and one supported by the latest report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), points to the melting of the ice-covered terrain of Greenland and Antarctic as well as the thermal expansion of ocean waters.
Looking forward, Kemp sees the possibility of storms less powerful than Sandy inflicting serious damage. He uses a basketball analogy. “It’s like playing basketball and raising the level of the court so that shorter and shorter people can dunk. It makes low lying property and infrastructure more vulnerable at a time when developers are pumping money into coastal cities and towns.”
Tufts University, located on three Massachusetts campuses in Boston, Medford/Somerville, and Grafton, and in Talloires, France, is recognized among the premier research universities in the United States. Tufts enjoys a global reputation for academic excellence and for the preparation of students as leaders in a wide range of professions. A growing number of innovative teaching and research initiatives span all Tufts campuses, and collaboration among the faculty and students in the undergraduate, graduate, and professional programs across the university’s schools is widely encouraged.
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Dr. Kemp, the basketball analogy fails miserably when the floor is sinking, Note the reference you made: “One is the natural sinking of land called glacio-isostatic adjustment.”
It was about 49 years ago that Hurricane Hazel made an even bigger mess than Sandy, before anybody even worried about climate change, sea level rise, or any number of other similar over-worries associated with “climate change”.
From Wikipedia:
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Hurricane Hazel was the deadliest and costliest hurricane of the 1954 Atlantic hurricane season. The storm killed as many as 1,000 people in Haiti before striking the United States near the border between North and South Carolina, as a Category 4 hurricane. After causing 95 fatalities in the US, Hazel struck Canada as an extratropical storm, raising the death toll by 81 people, mostly in Toronto. As a result of the high death toll and the damage Hazel caused, its name was retired from use for North Atlantic hurricanes.
Hazel affected Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New York; it brought gusts near 160 km/h (100 mph) and caused $308 million (1954 USD) in damage. When it was over Pennsylvannia, Hazel consolidated with a cold front, and turned northwest towards Canada. When it hit Ontario as an extratropical storm, rivers and streams in and around Toronto, Ontario overflowed their banks, which caused severe flooding. As a result, many residential areas located in the local floodplains, such as the Raymore Drive area, were subsequently converted to parkland. In Canada alone, over C$135 million (2009: $1.1 billion) of damage was incurred.
The effects of Hazel were particularly unprecedented in Toronto, as a result of a combination of a lack of experience in dealing with tropical storms and the storm’s unexpected retention of power. Hazel had traveled 1,100 km (680 mi) over land, but while approaching Canada, it had merged with an existing powerful cold front. The storm stalled over the Greater Toronto Area, and although it was now extratropical, it remained as powerful as a category 1 hurricane. To help with the cleanup, 800 members of the military were summoned, and a Hurricane Relief Fund was established that distributed $5.1 million (2009: $41.7 million) in aid.
In early October 1954, a tropical wave moved off the coast of Africa and was spotted on October 5, roughly 80 km (50 mi) east of the island of Grenada. Sufficiently organized to be deemed a hurricane, the original hurricane hunter wind measurement of 110 km/h (70 mph) soon increased to 160 km/h (100 mph) at the centre, with a forward speed of 16 km/h (10 mph).[1] Hazel moved westward and intensified from October 6 to October 9 in the Caribbean Sea without directly striking any land;[2] at one point, it was moving “practically parallel” to the Venezuelan coast.[3] After continuing on a westward track, it turned sharply to the north-northeast, heading for Haiti instead of Jamaica, contrary to meteorologists’ predictions.[4] On the whole, the storm proved to be very unpredictable, defying forecasts on multiple occasions.[2]
On October 11, Hazel crossed Haiti as a Category 2 hurricane. It had lost some strength because of its passing over peaks as high as 2,400 m (8,000 ft). After passing through the Windward Passage between the islands of Cuba and Hispaniola, Hazel turned northwest toward the southeastern part of the Bahamas and East Coast of the United States, at a forward speed of about 27 km/h (17 mph).[5] Hurricanes are generally expected to lose power after going north of Florida, since the temperature of the water is lower;[6] however, by late October 14, just before it reached the Carolinas, hurricane hunter planes found the hurricane’s winds to have accelerated to 220 km/h (140 mph), making it a Category 4 storm, and its forward speed had increased to 48 km/h (30 mph).
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Then there’s this one, the Ash Wednesday Storm:
“In New Jersey alone, an estimated 45,000 homes were destroyed or greatly damaged. In New York, on Long Island, communities such as Fire Island were decimated; 100 homes there were destroyed. Wave heights reached 12 m (40 ft) by the shore of New York City.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Wednesday_Storm_of_1962
Could Hazel happen again? Sure. Could the Ash Wednesday Storm happen again? No doubt. Could Sandy happen again? You betcha. Does climate change have anything to do with the odds of any of these recurring? Nope.
In fact the odds are better for a Sandy or Hazel like storm to strike when the tide is not at a peak. Had Sandy struck when the tide was low or even somewhere in the middle of the tide cycle, the caterwauling about sea level rise wouldn’t be nearly as loud. While I don’t disagree with Kemp’s statement of “Rising sea levels exacerbate flooding,”, we can also say “hurricanes at high tide exacerbate flooding”. The question comes down to which one had more effect, in the case of Sandy, it was the timing of landfall, high tide, and years of neglecting sea defenses; sea level rise was a minor player.

At 8.99 feet on top of the high tide, Sandy’s surge was almost twice that of its nearest rivals, which all fell between 4 and 5 feet.
![battery_water_level[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/battery_water_level1.jpg?resize=500%2C317&quality=83)
Should we freak out about sea level in New York City? You be the judge: Freaking out about NYC sea level rise is easy to do when you don’t pay attention to history
See also: From the Scientific Urban Legend Department: ‘AGW Sea Level Rise Made Sandy More Destructive’
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Poppen Kollar: ” That means floods. Is that like really hard to understand?”
Which can only be prevented by Jonestown cult hysterics. Rather than silly things like building dykes, or paying day labor to sprinkle handfuls of dirt around the border of Long Island once a year.
Latitude — thanks for the second attempt at that query; nice to know it wasn’t just I … and boy was it nice to know my posts are visible (thanks to Gary Pearse, too)!
Good points, Gary Pearse — honors inflation….. (whoooosh) to…… (whoooOOOOSH) the…. (WHOOOOOOOOSH) point that they will soon POP! and be worthless forever.
Speaking of “pop” … heeeeeeeeere’s Poppen!
Poppen, what happened to Pippen? Will Plinkin’ be along shortly? How about … hm. Better stop there.
Pippen, Poppen, and Nod, one night, set sail in a wooden shoe… .
Pippen-Poppen, Pippen-Poppen (head shake), you are just too cute for words.
So, here’s a picture!
Dear ones, wake up! You’ve been dreaming, my poppets. That isn’t the sea rising around your trundle bed, that’s just the blanket nurse put round about in case you tumble out in the night. All is well. Sweet dreams. #(:))
Those aren’t “noisy gauges” (your tinker toys standing in the corner, perhaps?), those are well-calibrated instruments that to date have detected no significantly measurable rise in global sea level.
I think it is Ferd Berple (and others have, too) who has repeatedly pointed out that the sea navigation charts relied upon by those whose money (if not life) would be lost if they are incorrect HAVE NOT BEEN ADJUSTED FOR SEA LEVEL CHANGE IN OVER 200 YEARS.
Jquip and UKUS (I had to turn that around — heh) — clever and witty remarks — thanks!
Thanks, Disney! — NOT.
Can’t watch video unless you go to You Tube. So sorry, folks. Grrr. Here are the search terms to get to it (it came up as #2 choice for me) — “As if,” most of you will say… :
“wynken blynken and nod disney”
Janice Moore says:
October 17, 2013 at 3:29 pm
Hey, dear Moderator…. just curious, why are there “no public comments available for display” (right side bar)? Are all these comments visible only to me?? I’ve wondered about that before. Mine seem to be invisible about 75% of the time… . 😉
[Reply: I am getting the public comments. — mod.]
Well like Janice I am getting this message:
“Recent Comments
There are no public comments available to display.”
Janice Moore, etc … The issue regarding:
Recent Comments
There are no public comments available to display.
… seems to be related to WordPress. This same message appears on Steve Goddard’s RealScience website, also.
A problem with studying the cores taken in marshes behind the dunes is that two storms, which are equal in all other ways, may bash through the dunes in different spots. The wash-over then spreads a fan of sand atop the marsh’s peat in two different areas. You can then have two cores taken in two areas only a mile apart which disagree about which of the two storms was worse.
A second problem involves the location the eye as the storm goes ashore. A hurricane which is a “Perfect Storm” for one local may spare an area only ten miles away. As Joe Bastardi’s father explained to Joe, if you shift Hazel’s track to the east or west, it makes a huge difference in terms of who gets ruined and who gets spared.
I lived in Myrtle Beach for a year, and while attempting to spade some compost into a small back garden (which was basically pure sand) I came across bricks. A local fellow explained that the bricks were from a hotel that BH, (Before Hazel,) had stood several hundred yards up the beach. However a different local person explained things could have been much worse. As he described it, the water “went uphill” as you looked off shore into the teeth of the wind, but just when it seemed that surge was coming ashore the wind swung right around and became off-shore, as the eye passed just off the coast and Hazel came ashore just to the north of Myrtle Beach. The very strong off-shore wind “blew the flood away.”
It is always helpful to talk to the local people who live in the area, and who had elders who lived in the area before them, before you speak about “highest” and “strongest” and “worst.” Apparently one reason Sandy caused such damage in New Jersey was due to the refusal of a single neighborhood to allow quasi-natural dunes to be erected along the shore, because such dunes would block the ocean views from their picture windows. Their desire to see the sea created a weakness in the coastal defenses.
Lastly, what made Sandy a “perfect storm” was perfect timing, more than anything else. This “perfect timing,” allowing it to hit at high tide during a full moon, was in turn due to its long duration. It could sit and wait for the tide to get high, as greater storms have roared in and out while the tide was low.
If you are going to be fair, the way to compare Sandy with other storms is to imagine what other storms would have been like, if they hit at full moon during high tide. However we have already been there and done that, comparing Sandy with the Great Storm of 1821 in this post: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/11/02/a-reply-to-hurricane-sandy-alarmists/
IMHO, we should still keep an eye out for late season hurricanes, because the Atlantic is so warm off the USA east coast, but if you are really in the mood to fret you should huff and puff with worry about the coming winter. The cold is building at the North Pole in a manner very much like the autumn of 1976, just before the hard winter of 1976-77. The DMI graph shows the same North Pole prior-winter with warm spikes, the same summer with below normal polar temperatures, the same early autumn with above-normal temperatures, followed by a similar plunge in temperatures to below normal. (I compare the two graphs at http://sunriseswansong.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/arctic-sea-ice-recovery-halloween-hushing-and-howling/ )
With the water off the east coast so warm, and the pattern suggesting we might be in for below-zero (Fahrenheit) arctic outbreaks, we could get some nor’easter snowstorms that will make Sandy look wimpy.
So worry, worry, worry, if that’s what makes you happy. Otherwise, “Don’t Worry. Be Happy.”
One can go back a bit further in history. The 1821 Norfolk and Long Island hurricane produced a high water of 13 feet at Battery Park, Manhattan. Sandy went 10 inches higher at the same location. However, the big difference is Sandy struck at high tide, while the 1821 event happened at low tide. Tidal range at Battery Park is about 5 feet, therefore under exceptionally unfortunate circumstances water level could raise more than 4 feet higher than in last year, or 5 feet, if sea level rise is also taken into account. Anyway, the storm surge itself was much higher in 1821, dwarfing all century scale mean sea level changes.
Sandy, for the insular lefties who dominate America now, was unique, unprecedented, proof the world is changing. That this storm was none of those things to historically literate people does not matter. Sandy hit where (or near where) much of our corporate leadership lives, and they have control of the money, God help us. So old infrastructure does not matter to our modern leaders. History does not matter to our modern leaders. Their beach houses were wrecked, their Manhattan apartments flooded, Their lives were disrupted. And the always present AGW hypesters are right there, telling them it is all about CO2. Not building codes, lack of sea walls, lack of disaster preparation, not historically unprecedented. CO2 and nothing more.
Hazel brushed my hometown two weeks before I was born 59 years ago.
“Could Sandy happen again? Maybe, says Tufts geologist”
OMG!!!
There’s no “maybe” about it! ANYTHING AT ALL “could” happen! Anything.
The world “could” freeze solid to the core tomorrow for no reason at all. “Could” happen, but with a probability so low it isn’t likely to happen anywhere anytime in a googolplex of universes. This is what really annoys me about the alarmists: “could”. New York “could” be flooded next year. Sure, it “could”. All sorts of ridiculous alarms are adverted as being “possible” – they “could” happen. And who can truthfully deny it? No one, because literally anything that isn’t a logical contradiction “could” happen. It is the most deeply dishonest, unfair way of talking because the opponent is placed in a hopeless position. And now, here is this utter crackpot of a “Tufts geologist” buffering his alarmism in, not one “could”, but also a “maybe”!!! I suggest calling “could” and “maybe” nonsense for the ratbag dishonesty it really is. Refuse to even consider these remarks anything except the gibberish nonsense of monkeys banging on keyboards. “Could” Forfend!
Shouldn’t the narrative be about relative sea level rise to take in the reality of subsidence or uplift? I guess that when the NY infra structure was built no one was thinking about historic storm surges or were the engineers just making an economic decision to kick the can to future generations and analyzed the cost of construction for storm surge design vs repair and probability. Maybe they didn’t have the benefit of the science at the time these decisions were made. Finally I have heard it before but it is worth repeating. “if you can’t back up 4 inches per centaury you deserve to drown. Just thinking….
Poppin Fresh bleats; But the ocean levels are rising
Yes, just as they have been since the end of the last ice age. But there is no reason to believe they are rising at an increased rate now, other than hysteria propelled by ignorance, nor is there any reason (other than the one stated) to believe that man is responsible for it. sea level is a difficult thing to even measure, varying worldwide, and even more difficult to predict. With temperatures stabilizing the past 17 years and even beginning to drop, the logical expectation would be for sea levels to also stabilize, and drop eventually.
No, the name “Sandy” will never be used again for a hurricane, because it has been retired.
Stupid, stupid question.
If the question is more: can we have another bad hurricane hit New England, the answer is of course “yes”. Just as it has previously.
Poppen Kool says:
October 17, 2013 at 7:06 pm
But the ocean levels are rising whether or not your noisey gauges are. So local rising plus global rising equals more rising. That means floods. Is that like really hard to understand?
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A full 65% of tide gauges, show no sea level rise at all…..
http://pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il/~msdfels/wpapers/Tide%20gauge%20location.pdf
….obviously, that is like really hard for you to understand
I read storm surge. Here is a storm surge from the early Little Ice Age [1] on the other side of the pond.
———————————-
Letter – Nature
Dr. Jeffrey P. Donnelly (Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution)
Intense hurricane activity over the past 5,000 years controlled by El Niño and the West African monsoon
The processes that control the formation, intensity and track of hurricanes are poorly understood1. It has been proposed that an increase in sea surface temperatures caused by anthropogenic climate change has led to an increase in the frequency of intense tropical cyclones2, 3, but this proposal has been challenged on the basis that the instrumental record is too short and unreliable to reveal trends in intense tropical cyclone activity4. Storm-induced deposits preserved in the sediments of coastal lagoons offer the opportunity to study the links between climatic conditions and hurricane activity on longer timescales, because they provide centennial- to millennial-scale records of past hurricane landfalls5, 6, 7, 8. Here we present a record of intense hurricane activity in the western North Atlantic Ocean over the past 5,000 years based on sediment cores from a Caribbean lagoon that contain coarse-grained deposits associated with intense hurricane landfalls. The record indicates that the frequency of intense hurricane landfalls has varied on centennial to millennial scales over this interval. Comparison of the sediment record with palaeo-climate records indicates that this variability was probably modulated by atmospheric dynamics associated with variations in the El Niño/Southern Oscillation and the strength of the West African monsoon, and suggests that sea surface temperatures as high as at present are not necessary to support intervals of frequent intense hurricanes. To accurately predict changes in intense hurricane activity, it is therefore important to understand how the El Niño/Southern Oscillation and the West African monsoon will respond to future climate change.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v447/n7143/abs/nature05834.html
Anthony, New York is doomed.
Global sea level has been rising for a very long time and now flattening.
We are still doomed.
It not only could happen again it will happen again. The problem is not that hurricanes happen and that they can come ashore at high tide the problem is simply that the state allowed property owneres t obuild their homes in an area that was likely to flood during a storm. Sadly they are allowing them to rebuid there and when it happens again all of these homeowners will once again look to the taxpayers to bail them out.
Or asking if Katrina could happen again, doing similar things to New Orleans, which is vastly below sea level, once more.
Basically…
If you’re 3 years old and you touch your mother’s scalding hot flat iron and get burned… will you get burned again if you touch it once more if it’s scalding hot?
“””””…..MEDFORD/SOMERVILLE, Mass. – Almost a year after Hurricane Sandy, parts of New York and New Jersey are still recovering from billions of dollars in flood damage. Tufts University geologist Andrew Kemp sees the possibility of damage from storms smaller than Sandy in the future……”””””
Well Hurricane Sandy actually did very little damage that anyone noticed; well it maybe bored some holes out in the ocean, and on average was hardly noticeable; but Tropical Storm Sandy, that hit parts of the US East coast, may have damaged some stuff built too near the ocean and at too low an altitude. Not quite built underwater, like New Orleans !!
‘could hurricane Hazel strike again’ ?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hazlebo01.shtml
Sure. See Yasiel Puig:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/puigya01.shtml
According to this map,
it appears as sea level shrunk on North East Seaboard of US, between 1993-2005. Interestingly it looks like most of the rise in sea level occurred far out in the oceans, while sea levels close to continents appear to have gone down…
From this site: http://wcrp.ipsl.jussieu.fr/Workshops/SeaLevel/Posters/3_16_Nerem.pdf
Nice observation, Hakan Scheibe (1:51am today). Thanks for sharing the sea level altimetry page. Yes, nearly all (all?) the red splotches were far out to sea.
My takeaway from that page: “However, a number of critical questions
remain to be answered,… .”
LOL, no doubt. (“2mm”…. “4mm”… accuracy. Right.)