Bethlehem and the rat-hole problem

rat, mousetrap and cheese

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

In the closing minutes of the final plenary of the U.N.’s Doha climate summit, when no one else had anything further to add, I spent a few seconds telling the delegates something that the bad scientists and the malicious media have done their level best to conceal. There has been no global warming for 16 years.

In the real world, this surely welcome news would have been greeted with cheers of relief and delight. Since the beginning of 1997, despite the wailing and gnashing of dentures among the classe politique, despite the regulations, the taxations, the carbon trades, the windmills, the interminable, earnestly flatulent U.N. conferences, the CO2 concentration that they had declared to be Public Enemy No. 1 has not stabilized. It has grown by one-twelfth.

Yet this startling growth has not produced so much as a twentieth of a Celsius degree of global warming. Any warming below the measurement uncertainty of 0.05 Cº in the global-temperature datasets is statistically indistinguishable from zero.

The much-vaunted “consensus” of the much-touted “ensembles” of the much-heralded “models” has been proven wrong. The much-feted “modelers” had written in 2008 that their much-cited “simulations” ruled out, to 95% confidence, intervals of 15 years or more without global warming. To them, 16 years without warming were as near impossible as makes no difference.

Yet those impossible years happened. However, you would never have known that surely not uninteresting piece of good news from reading the newspapers or watching ABC, BBC, CBC, NBC, et hoc genus omne. The media are not in the business of giving the facts or telling the truth any more.

Precisely because journalists no longer bother to provide the inconvenient truth to their audiences, and because they are no longer willing even to provide the people with the straightforward facts without which democracy itself cannot function, the depressingly ill-informed and scientifically-illiterate delegates in Doha can be forgiven for not having known that global warming stopped a long while back.

That is why they should have been excited and delighted when they heard the news – nearly all of them for the very first time.

But this was the alternative reality that is the corrupt, self-serving U.N. Howls, hoots and hollers of dismay and fury greeted my short, polite announcement. This absurdly inappropriate reaction raises a fascinating question.

How are we to dig a rat-hole wide enough to allow the useful idiots and true-believers to escape as each passing year makes it more and more obvious that their fatuous credo has all the plausibility of the now somewhat discredited notion that the world was to be snuffed out at this year’s winter solstice?

Every student of the arts of diplomacy in the civil-service and staff colleges of the U.K. hears much about the rat-hole problem. How does one let the other side off some hook on which they have imprudently impaled themselves, while minimizing their loss of face?

A cornered rat will fight savagely, even against overwhelming odds, because it has no alternative. Give the rat a way out and it will instinctively take it.

The first step in digging a diplomatic rat-hole is to show that one understands how one’s opponents came to make their mistake. One might make a point of agreeing with their premise – in the present instance, the long-proven fact that adding a greenhouse gas to an atmosphere such as ours can be expected, ceteris paribus, to cause some warming.

Then one tries to find justifications for their standpoint. There are five good reasons why the global warming that they – and we – might have expected has not occurred for 16 years: natural variability in general; the appreciable decline in solar activity since the Grand Maximum that peaked in 1960; the current 30-year cooling phase of the ocean oscillations, which began late in 2001 with the transition from the warming phase that had begun in 1976; the recent double-dip la Niña; and the frequency with which supra-decadal periods without warming have occurred in the instrumental record since 1850.

The next trick is to help them, sympathetically, to focus the blame for their error on as few of their number as possible. Here, the target is obvious. The models are to blame for the mess the true-believers are in.

We must help them to understand why the models got it so very wrong. This will not be easy, because nearly all of our opponents have no science or math at all.

We can start our deconstruction of the models by pointing out that – given the five good reasons why global warming might not occur for 15 years or more at a time – the modelers’ ruling out periods of 15 years or more without warming shows they have given insufficient weight to the influence of natural variability. We can poke gentle fun at their description of CO2 as “ the tuning-knob of the climate”, and help them to put things into perspective by reminding them that Man has so far altered only 1/10,000 of the atmosphere, and may alter 1/3000 of it by 2100.

We cannot altogether avoid the math. But we can put it all in plain English, and we can use logic, which is more accessible to the layman than climatological physics. Here goes.

The fundamental equation of climate sensitivity says temperature change is the product of a forcing and a climate-sensitivity parameter.

The modellers’ definition of forcing is illogical; their assumptions about the value of the climate-sensitivity parameter are not Popper-falsifiable; and their claims of reliability for their long-term predictions are empirically disproven and theoretically insupportable. Let us explain.

The IPCC defines a forcing as the net down-minus-up flux of radiation at the tropopause, holding surface temperature fixed. Yet forcings change that temperature. A proposition and its converse cannot simultaneously be true. That is the fundamental postulate of logic, and the models’ definition of forcing manifestly offends against it.

No surprise, then, that since 1995 the IPCC has had to cut its estimate of the CO2 forcing by 15%. The “consensus” disagrees with itself. Note in passing that the CO2 forcing function is logarithmic: each further molecule causes less warming than those before it. Diminishing returns apply.

We can remind our opponents that direct warming is little more than 1 Cº per doubling of CO2 concentration, well within natural variability. It is not a crisis. We can explain that the modelers have imaginatively introduced amplifying or “positive” temperature feedbacks, which, they hope, will triple the direct warming from CO2.

Yet this dubious hypothesis, not being Popper-falsifiable, is not logic and, therefore, not science. If a hypothesis cannot be checked by any empirical or theoretical method, it is not – stricto sensu – a hypothesis at all. It is of no interest to science.

Not one of the imagined feedbacks is empirically measurable or theoretically determinable to a sufficient precision by any method. As an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report, I have described its strongly net-positive feedback interval as guesswork – and that, in logic and therefore in science, is exactly what it is.

There is a powerful theoretical reason for suspecting that the modellers’ guess that feedbacks triple direct warming is erroneous. The climatic closed-loop feedback gain implicit in the IPCC’s climate-sensitivity estimate of 3.3[2.0, 4.5] Cº per CO2 doubling falls on the interval 0.62[0.42, 0.74], though you will find no mention of the crucial concept of loop gain either in the IPCC’s documents or – as far as I can discover – in any of the few papers that discuss the mathematics of temperature feedbacks in the climate object.

Process engineers building electronic circuits, who invented feedback mathematics, tell us any loop gain much above zero is too near the singularity – at a loop gain of 1 – in the feedback-amplification equation. At a gain as high as is implicit in the models’ climate-sensitivity estimates, the geological record would show violent oscillations between extremes of warming and cooling.

Yet for 64 million years the Earth’s surface temperature has fluctuated by only 3%, or 8 Cº, either side of the long-run mean. These fluctuations can give us an ice-planet at one moment and a hothouse Earth the next, but they are altogether too small to be consistent with a feedback loop gain anywhere near as close to the singularity as official estimates imply, for homeostatic conditions prevail.

The atmosphere’s lower bound, the ocean, is a vast heat-sink 1100 times denser than the air. Since 3000 bathythermographs were deployed in 2006 no significant ocean warming has been found.

The upper bound of the atmosphere is outer space, to which any excess heat radiates harmlessly away.

Homeostasis, then, is what we should expect, and it is what we get. Accordingly, the climatic loop gain – far from being as impossibly high as the IPCC’s central estimate of 0.62 – cannot much exceed zero, so the warming at CO2 doubling will scarcely exceed 1 Cº.

It is also worth explaining to our opponents the fundamental reason why models cannot do what the modelers claim for them. The overriding difficulty in attempting to model the climate is that it behaves as a chaotic object. We can never know the values of its millions of defining parameters at any chosen moment to a sufficient precision to permit reliable projection of the bifurcations, or Sandy-like departures from an apparently steady state, that are inherent in all objects that behave chaotically. Therefore, reliable, very-long-term prediction of future climate states is known a priori to be unavailable by any method.

The modelers have tried to overcome this constraint by saying that the models are all we have, so we must make the best of them. But it is self-evidently illogical to use models when reliable, very-long-term weather forecasting is not available by any method.

This fundamental limitation on the reliability of long-term predictions by the models – known as the Lorenz constraint, after the father of computerized or “numerical” weather forecasting, whose 1963 paper Deterministic Non-Periodic Flow founded chaos theory by examining the behavior of a five-variable mini-model of the climate constructed as a heuristic – tells us something more, and very important, about the climate.

Bifurcations (or, in our opponents’ intellectual baby-talk, “tipping-points”) in the evolution of the climate object over time are not a whit more likely to occur in a rapidly-warming climate than in a climate which – like our own – is not warming at all.

Sandy and Bopha, and the hot summer in the U.S., could not have been caused by global warming, for the blindingly obvious reason that for 16 years there has not been any.

However, there are many variables in the climate object other than CO2 concentration and surface temperature. Even the tiniest perturbation in any one of these millions of parameters is enough, in an object that behaves chaotically, to induce a bifurcation.

Nothing in the mathematics of chaos leads one to conclude that “tipping-points” are any more likely to occur in response to a large change in the value of one of the parameters (such as surface temperature) that describe an object than in response to an infinitesimal change.

The clincher, in most diplomatic discussions, is money. Once we have led our opponents to understand that there is simply no reason to place any credence whatsoever in the exaggerations that are now painfully self-evident in the models, we can turn their attention to climate economics.

Pretend, ad argumentum, that the IPCC’s central estimate of 2.8 Cº warming by 2100 is true, and that Stern was right to say that the GDP cost of failing to prevent 3 Cº warming this century will be around 1.5% of GDP. Then, at the minimum 5% market inter-temporal discount rate, the cost of trying to abate this decade’s predicted warming of 0.15 Cº by topical, typical CO2-mitigation measures as cost-ineffective as, say, Australia’s carbon tax would be 48 times greater than the cost of later adaptation. At a zero discount rate, the cost of action will exceed the cost arising from inaction 36 times over.

How so? Australia emits just 1.2% of Man’s CO2, of which Ms. Gillard aims to cut 5% this decade. So Australia’s scheme, even if it worked, would cutting just 0.06% of global emissions by 2020. In turn, that would cut CO2 concentration from a predicted 410 μatm to 409.988 μatm. It is this infinitesimal change in CO2 concentration, characteristic of all measures intended – however piously – to mitigate future warming that is the chief reason why there is no economic case for spending any money at all on mitigation today.

The tiny drop in CO2 concentration would cut predicted temperature by 0.00006 Cº. This pathetic result would be achieved at a cost of $130 billion, which works out at $2 quadrillion/Cº. Abating the 0.15 Cº warming predicted for this decade would thus cost $317 trillion, or $45,000/head worldwide, or 59% of global GDP.

Mitigation measures inexpensive enough to be affordable will be ineffective: measures expensive enough to be effective will be unaffordable. Since the premium exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure. That is a precautionary principle worthy of the name.

When the child born in Bethlehem ~2012 years ago grew up, He told His audience the parable of the prodigal son, who had squandered his inheritance but was nevertheless welcomed by his father with a fatted calf when he returned and said he was sorry.

However vicious and cruel the true-believers in the global-warming fantasy have been to those few of us who have dared publicly to question their credo that has now been so thoroughly discredited by events, we should make sure that the rat-hole we dig for their escape from their lavish folly is as commodious as possible.

If all else fails, we can pray for them as He prayed looking down from the Cross on the world He had created.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

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December 31, 2012 6:49 pm

Phil. says:
December 31, 2012 at 5:03 pm
Diplomacy is not a bad option when you’re outnumbered, low on ammo, haven’t slept for 60 hrs etc. worked spectacularly in that case!

– – – – – – –
Phil,
Not bad. Not bad at all. : )
And I always liked American Army General Anthony Clement “Nuts” McAuliffe’s reply to the German Army’s ultimatum that he surrender during The Battle of the Bulge campaign in WW2. He replied to the Germans in one word, “Nuts”.
Screw diplomacy when dichotomous principles are involved.
John

December 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Monckton of Brenchley says:
December 31, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Professor Brown, in his continuing, spectacularly muddled and rather tendentious campaign against Christianity, misinterprets my telling of the story of the British commander who prayed and then telephoned the Argentinians he was facing and invited them to surrender, which they did. The point of the story had nothing whatsoever to do with the “divine intervention” mentioned by the Professor: it was that one can win battles by diplomacy rather than by brute force, and diplomacy sometimes works. The point of the head posting was that we must let down the true-believers in the New Religion of global warming gently now that their credo has been proven defective.
============================================
If you weren’t already aware of this, I thought you’d appreciate it along with some others here. Some won’t.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/fuchida1.html

gnomish
December 31, 2012 8:05 pm

of all possible topics a speaker could choose from the infinite number available, he selects what he does for a reason.
of all possible angles to take on the topic he has selected as more important than all the rest, he chooses his slant for a reason.
of all possible words he could use to express his take on the topic he selected from among all others and from among all perspectives, he chooses the vocabulary he employs for a reason.
application of semantic analysis reveals the matador behind the red cape and the culture behind the matador.
when a skunk sprays we could discuss how bad it smells – or we could note how well it works for the skunk. understanding that, we may find a defense. finding a defense, we might be protected. being protected, we might end the affliction.
J.W.- have you been doing Premise Detection & Analysis on this thread? I have. Do you see what I see?

rgbatduke
January 1, 2013 8:49 am

Thus, my claim that “This conclusion follows…” is true and your counterclaim is false.
Given these definitions then, I concede. I would argue that the issue is sloppiness of language more than anything else, but you are quite correct that we have no way of knowing what the (dynamical) “equilibrium temperature” of the Earth is or should be with or without CO_2 changes. We can do things with derivatives, however, which do not depend on knowledge of the absolute magnitude of a quantity. I assume that what they are referring to is some sort of partial derivative of decadally averaged temperature with respect to atmospheric CO_2 concentration, which is a well defined quantity provided only that you specify how you are going to evaluate the decadally averaged temperature.
Whether it is well defined and relevant in a highly multvariate system is another matter.
rgb

Reply to  rgbatduke
January 1, 2013 2:12 pm

rgbatduke:
I don’t believe that the IPCC’s choice of words is unusual. An article by Hegerel et al ( http://www-test.geos.ed.ac.uk/homes/tcrowley/Hegerl_Nature_sensitivity.pdf ) provides a bit of evidence on usage in the climatological literature. According to the authors: “The commonly accepted range for the equilibrium global mean temperature change in response to a doubling of the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration, termed climate sensitivity, is 1.5-4.5 K.”
Everything I’ve read in the 3+ years since I began to poke around in the literature of climatology is consistent with the belief that by “the equilibrium global mean temperature change” climatologists mean exactly what they say. The authors of AR4 cover up key consequences from the unobservability of the equilibrium global mean temperature through applications of the equivocation fallacy, as I establish in the article at http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/15/the-principles-of-reasoning-part-iii-logic-and-climatology/ .

January 1, 2013 10:35 am

gnomish says:
December 31, 2012 at 8:05 pm
J.W.- have you been doing Premise Detection & Analysis on this thread? I have. Do you see what I see?

= = = = = =
gnomish,
It appears to me that almost everyone on this thread exhibits a yearning to do some serious premise detective work and premise analysis of Monckton’s post, whether they initially react for or against his original post’s thoughts on diplomacy, climate science and religion.
WRT your analogies, I suggest it is best to stay away from analogies. That applies to Monckton’s rat analogies in his diplomatic strategy considerations; rat analogies which he made in front of both parties who he suggests engage in diplomacy. That is bizarre behavior is if he was serious, a good piece of satire if he wasn’t serious.
Once again we see that dialogs on scientific basis compared to the basis of faith will evoke a valuable insight into the most fundamental premises involved in the human condition. Is the ~ 2,400 old dialog involving a comparison of Plato/Kant to Aristotle the prototype for the dialog of faith compared to science? I think it is. : )
PERSONAL NOTE: rgbatduke made a sincere gesture of diplomatic calming toward Christopher Monckton after rgb’s self-admitted unnecessarily exuberant words critical of religion. Yet Monckton made no such gesture after Monckton’s shocking emotion charged words toward rgbatduke. I have been for years a consistent avid supporter Christopher Monckton and his civility, which is why I now am troubled about what I think is his ungentlemanly behavior on this thread.
John

juanslayton
January 1, 2013 10:45 am

rgb: Do you think that Oliver Cromwell failed to pray to God before he lost his head?
Since we’ve been wandering all over the topical countryside, perhaps I can offer one more comment of questionable relevance… Oliver Cromwell was long dead when they dug up his corpse and cut off his head.

mpainter
January 1, 2013 12:35 pm

John Whitman says: January 1, 2013 at 10:35 am
===================================
Your note certainly was personal, and unnecessary to boot. Put that in your premise detector.

rgbatduke
January 1, 2013 2:11 pm

Since we’ve been wandering all over the topical countryside, perhaps I can offer one more comment of questionable relevance… Oliver Cromwell was long dead when they dug up his corpse and cut off his head.
Oops, sorry. I knew that. However, it is almost certain that he prayed, often, throughout his whole life, and I know of no reason to doubt his sincerity. He is reported to have believed (like many before him) that God was guiding his victories. Reportedly Charles I, whose head he helped cut off, felt that he had a divine right to his royal prerogatives and was of course the head of the English Church, so one has to assume that he also prayed. Charles II no doubt felt that God was on his side during the Restoration. James almost certainly felt the same way after Charles II. One simply cannot go down through the history of warfare and politics and see in it some sign of the hand of God, with God sparing this group because they are devout or casting down this group because they are not. In fact, the “bad guys” often won, and the suffering of the poor but devout has known no bounds throughout most of recorded history. I would review the history of Spain, the Spanish conquests in the New World, and the infamous Spanish Inquisition, but there is no real need.
You have to go back to the Old Testament to get to reports of “miraculous” victories due to the direct intervention of God, and while you are there you might as well take a turn by the equally credible and a lot more fun turn by the Mahabharata and Ramayana. If God is going to intervene in a battle, it is always best if God refuses to cast things like the Brahmastra or the astra Praswaapa, either of which would end the world. The battles on the fields of Kurukshetra read like nuclear war complete to doomsday weapons. Thanks, God!
In the real world, there is little correlation between any particular religion and military success beyond the rather natural correlation produced by the victors writing the histories (and therein attributing their successes to God) even as the losers did back when they were still winners.
As far as Christianity exerting a positive effect on war — one need go no further than the U. S. Civil War to have a smashing counterexample. Both sides were predominantly Christian, although Lincoln was reportedly an atheist, or at least a man who rejected scriptural religion and viewed all churches with considerable suspicion. A favorite quote:
“It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.”
This makes liars out of all who claim a knowledge of God that cannot be soundly supported. There is no sound support for a knowledge of God, especially a knowledge derived from scripture. Again from Lincoln:
“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”
Christianity invoked the Bible on both sides of the line to justify the most brutal of slavery and to justify its rejection. The Old Testament, after all, explicitly permits slavery and indeed permits a slaveowner to beat a slave almost to death on any whim (but prohibits him from actually killing a slave, without any particularly onerous penalty if one should accidentally go to far). Jesus had numerous opportunities to speak out against slavery in the New Testament, but of course never did. If he had, Constantine would never have adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire, with its vast slaveholdings. In the name of preserving “a way of life” that just happened to include vast economic wealth held by a small white minority sustained by the employment of unpaid human chattel, Christians on both sides fought one of the bloodiest wars of all time. Both sides of course thanked God for their victories, and God never voted any of the obvious ways available for one side over the other, such as pulling an Old Testament Let My People God on the Confederacy and wiping out all of the firstborn sons of the Confederacy overnight , raining frogs down on them, etc. I’d wager a plague of falling frogs and dead sons that struck only the owners of slaves would have gotten the message across very clearly.
But that never happens, because either God isn’t real, he’s imaginary, or God is real but doesn’t actually intervene in the world, so prayers requestion miracles and interventions are a waste of time, Jesus’s many assertions about prayer and faith being able to accomplish this or that are false, and evil and good both triumph on the strict basis of might (plus good luck, help from random factors and skill) makes right. “Treason doth never prosper; what’s the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
So it is with religion.
rgb

January 1, 2013 2:39 pm

mpainter on January 1, 2013 at 12:35 pm
===================================
Your note certainly was personal, and unnecessary to boot. Put that in your premise detector.

– – – – – – – –
mpainter,
My note was not just personal, it very very personal.
Perhaps my personal note was just as unnecessary as Christopher Monckton’s personal remarks to rgbatduke which still stand unmitigated.
Yes, my premise that Christopher Monckton should be a gentleman in this thread based on his good track record of proper gentlemanly behavior in previous WUWT posts might be wrong. I had hoped he can follow rgbatduke’s diplomatic admission and regret of over-exuberance in critical expression.
So I admit the possibility of my personal note having an incorrect premise. We all learn from experience.
John

gnomish
January 1, 2013 3:39 pm

heh – you’re right.
analogies suck like tits on a duck.
but a quack is a quack is a quack.
whom it pleases to sell diseases
and then charge for fake remedies.
i was wondering if you noticed the curious incident of the rat barking in the night..
hard to communicate once the kids know how to spell and have mastered piglatin.
i guess i wait for your site to open.

richardscourtney
January 3, 2013 1:55 pm

John Whitman:
At December 29, 2012 at 3:33 pm I concluded my post to you and Lewis P Buckingham saying:

The subject of this thread is important but has been completely usurped by people attempting to turn WUWT into a religious blog. There are appropriate places for such debates on the web but WUWT is not one of them. WUWT has an important function.
I am saddened that the important subject of this thread has been completely lost. And I consider it to be fortunate that I must now leave and will be unable to again get back to communications for about a week. Perhaps upon my return I shall then see some discussion of the thread’s subject has happened.

I am back, and I observe that my hope was forlorn. Your post at December 30, 2012 at 11:26 am explains why. It says;

Whether Christopher Monckton’s religious statements in his lead post were sufficient justification for follow-on comments on religion is the decision of Anthony and the moderators.
I differ to Anthony’s and the moderator’s decision.

Therein is the problem. In the absence of religion there is no ethical – so no moral – base: morality only consists of what can be tolerated within applied rules.
The Rules of WUWT permit much leeway and Moderators only block matters which are very off-topic. Hence, a reference or illustration can be deliberately used as an excuse to divert a thread from its topic, and this clearly happened in this thread.
Atheists use every excuse they can to promote their amoral religion, so what happened here could have been expected. And the result has been a complete disaster.
The important subject of this thread was consideration of how to enable escape from the AGW-scare. That subject has been completely avoided and has been replaced by ignorant anti-Christian twaddle only of interest to atheists.
Those responsible probably feel happy that they have evangelised their religion. But anybody who cares about ending the AGW-scare has abandoned the thread.
Richard

gnomish
January 3, 2013 2:15 pm

richard-
please do define ‘morality’ – i fear you have no clear understanding of the word.
i’ll define it for you, if that helps: morality is the science of choice on the basis of values.
richard – please define ‘ethics’ – i fear you have no clear understanding of the word.
i’ll define it for you, if that helps: ethics is the application of morality to relationships between individuals.
if you have some meaning in mind that differs from the definitions i provided, please elucidate them.
then, perhaps, you’d be so kind as to define ‘values’
i can do that for you, if you need help with that.

January 3, 2013 2:42 pm

richardscourtney says:
January 3, 2013 at 1:55 pm
===============
You’re right. Sorry for responding here on WUWT to “Evangelical Athieism”. I would have emailed the link I posted in my last comment at December 31, 2012 at 7:38 pm but for the reason stated but I couldn’t.
When made his original post about what happened in Doha, I said something to the effect that it might have been the first time some of them had heard that. The pebble that starts an avalanche.
I believe point of this post, that he made with a Biblical reference, if some begin to wake up, give them a chance to open their eyes.
I doubt if the Manns and the Gores will be among that number but just maybe that “bossy young woman with messy blond hair” will be.

richardscourtney
January 3, 2013 3:00 pm

gnomish:
re your post addressed to me at January 3, 2013 at 2:15 pm.
If you were to post something you knew about or understood then I would be pleased to read it.
Richard

Lewis P Buckingham
Reply to  richardscourtney
January 3, 2013 6:29 pm

richardscourtney Thanks for inviting me to follow this discussion.
This is probably not the best place or time to discuss metaphysics, although I do find it interesting.
The rat hole ‘problem’ at once delineates the problem but denigrates those whose views it attempts to address as potential rats.
Some on this thread want to name and blame those who have entered the Dante world of the circles of Hell.Others ,such as the writer Lord Monkton, want to make sure that they are given a way out, a very British and may I dare say ,Christian thing to do.Something like what happened to Kim Philby when the errors of his way were discovered.He did not rush off and start a new movement.
The recent post that finds that there may be an Anthropogenic signature in the short [climate] term, which leads to some warming may be the way forward.
Increasingly, at least in Australia, the ruling parties are sticking to their guns on carbon, but the people are abandoning them.
The meme could be developed that allows more leading climate scientists, whoever they may be, to sign a memorandum that the CO2 signature has been found to be short lived and that natural technological innovation, unassisted by onerous green schemes and taxation will be the best way forward especially in the face of world recession.A few economists would also sign up.
As you may belong to a religion, it would be good to get on their site and debate the warmists there.
That’s what I do, and if an atheist passes by, have a conversation with him.
My late uncle was an atheist and a good man, for as it is written
‘Blessed are those that search for justice….
This is what the ‘AGW’ debate is really about.The access to empirical truth so that people including planners, politicians and voters can make conscientious decisions about their lives, informed by their beliefs.
This site allow a good mix from all scientific walks of life to publish and discuss empirical truth.

gnomish
January 3, 2013 3:54 pm

[snip – give it a rest – Anthony]

January 3, 2013 4:00 pm

richardscourtney on January 3, 2013 at 1:55 pm
Therein is the problem. In the absence of religion there is no ethical – so no moral – base: morality only consists of what can be tolerated within applied rules.
Atheists use every excuse they can to promote their amoral religion, so what happened here could have been expected. And the result has been a complete disaster.
The important subject of this thread was consideration of how to enable escape from the AGW-scare. That subject has been completely avoided and has been replaced by ignorant anti-Christian twaddle only of interest to atheists.
But anybody who cares about ending the AGW-scare has abandoned the thread.

– – – – – – –
richardscourtney,
Welcome back.
Christianity per se is irrelevant to all my comments on this thread. Go back and read them. What is relevant to me are the metaphysical and the epistemological differences between the essential basis of religion (all varieties) and the essential basis of modern era science. This is an honored and necessary dialog in philosophy since Ancient Greek times and especially so since the renaissance. To cast it pejoratively as an incorrect discussion as you do is simply prejudicial. Per the diplomatic, science and Christianity topics initiated by Christopher Monckton some commenters focused on general religion and some commenters specifically focused on Christianity but all are sustaining a ~2400 yr old dialog that I think will last thousands of yrs longer. Viva!
I think you are still maintaing a false philosophical position which I presented to you in a comment to you on December 29, 2012 at 1:40 pm:

richardscourtney,
I think I identify your fundamental position wrt to religion. It looks to me that you are saying that it is a metaphysical precondition of human beings as such to be religious. To me you are saying ‘a priori’ that we are all religious by our nature; whether we recognize it or not. You imply that if one says one has no religious views then he is falsely rejecting his true metaphysical nature; you say not endorsing a religious view is a religion. N’est ce pas? What evidence do you have that we are all religious and maybe even by metaphysic necessity?
John

Now I add an observation about what I think is another false philosophical position of yours, based on your view that the exclusive source any moral system is religion. On the contrary, one does not need a profound belief in the supernatural / superstitions (which I think religion is) to have a highly reasonable moral basis for living a life consistent with man’s nature as a rational being. How do you claim exclusivity of morality to religion?
For you to imply that whoever still is monitoring this thread (and that includes you) must not care ” . . . about ending the AGW-scare . . . ” seems to me to be an indirect insult their integrity and my integrity. Why do you think that kind of statement is civil?
Also, a juxtaposition of climate science and religion, like Christopher Monckton had done, leads to other areas like discussion of the religious nature of some ideological adherents to CAGW ‘science’. Pandora’s box and all that . . .
NOTE: ‘atheist’ is strictly a theological term. For someone like me those kind of terms terms misrepresent in the favor of religious views. I suggest we use strictly secular terminology.
John

gnomish
January 3, 2013 4:21 pm

[snip – give it a rest – Anthony]
all righty. 🙂

richardscourtney
January 4, 2013 1:57 am

Lewis P Buckingham:
I agree all you say at January 3, 2013 at 6:29 pm.
For clarity, to declare a personal interest, and to demonstrate my sincerity in claiming that debate of religion is misplaced here, I respond to your saying to me

As you may belong to a religion,

I am an Accredited Methodist Preacher operating in the Falmouth and Gwenap Circuit of the Methodist Church of England and Wales. My duties include proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I do at every appropriate opportunity and from the pulpit during my conduct of Worship on Sundays.
But “There is a time and a place for all things” and WUWT is not the place for promotion of any religion. Important work is conducted here and should not be disrupted.
There are many other times and places where promotion of religion would also be inappropriate because it is damaging to the proper conduct of important activity; e.g. in an aircraft cockpit during landing procedures.
Richard

Lewis P Buckingham
Reply to  richardscourtney
January 4, 2013 12:28 pm

richardscourtney re jan 4 2013 1.57am
Thanks Richard.

richardscourtney
January 4, 2013 2:05 am

John Whitman:
At January 3, 2013 at 4:00 pm you ask me

For you to imply that whoever still is monitoring this thread (and that includes you) must not care ” . . . about ending the AGW-scare . . . ” seems to me to be an indirect insult their integrity and my integrity. Why do you think that kind of statement is civil?

I don’t care whether or not the statement is “civil”.
I am angry because it is clearly true.
You and others have destroyed this thread by your promotion of your religion. I don’t care about your amoral religion but I do care about the subject of this thread: I posted an article about this subject on WUWT in August 2009.
Richard

January 4, 2013 10:09 am

richardscourtney on January 4, 2013 at 2:05 am said to John Whitman:
I don’t care whether or not the statement is “civil”.
I am angry because it is clearly true.
You and others have destroyed this thread by your promotion of your religion. I don’t care about your amoral religion but I do care about the subject of this thread: I posted an article about this subject on WUWT in August 2009.
Richard

– – – – – – –
richardscourtney,
Thank you for your insightful efforts in extending an interesting dialog initiated by Christopher Monckton who juxtaposed a witty satire on diplomacy, arguments of science and sincere statements of declaration his Christian religion.
I see that you are angry and it has absolutely no epistemological merit in rational philosophical discourse on the fundamental differences between science and religion.
Richard, if you do not care about being civil with me then I will not be uncivil to you in return.
Again you are assuming false philosophical positions as I have presented to you in my previous comments to you on this thread. Here aren’t previous comments to you:

richardscourtney,
I think I identify your fundamental position wrt to religion. It looks to me that you are saying that it is a metaphysical precondition of human beings as such to be religious. To me you are saying ‘a priori’ that we are all religious by our nature; whether we recognize it or not. You imply that if one says one has no religious views then he is falsely rejecting his true metaphysical nature; you say not endorsing a religious view is a religion. N’est ce pas? What evidence do you have that we are all religious and maybe even by metaphysic necessity?
Now I add an observation about what I think is another false philosophical position of yours, based on your view that the exclusive source any moral system is religion. On the contrary, one does not need a profound belief in the supernatural / superstitions (which I think religion is) to have a highly reasonable moral basis for living a life consistent with man’s nature as a rational being. How do you claim exclusivity of morality to religion?

Sincerely, I would appreciate having your rational explanations of what appear to me to be of your false philosophical positions.
Are you aware Paul of Tarsus’ firm view of the absolute necessity of founding early Christianity purely on faith alone? And are you aware of Augustine’s intentional accomplishments in fully integrating Christianity formally with Platonist philosophy in the areas of metaphysics, epistemology and morals? Also, are you aware of Thomas Aquinas’ intentional accomplishment, opposingAugustine, in realigning Christianity to be integrated with broad aspects of Aristotelian philosophy . Finally, are you aware, after Aquinas, of Kant’s self-affirmation that the purpose of his philosophical efforts was to restore the fundamental basis of Christian faith by intentionally gutting the philosophical basis of reason and of the basis of objective knowledge of mankind’s natural universe?
For you to be apparently prejudiced against the discussions in this thread that bring out the scientific essence in direct contrast with the religious essence contradicts prima facia the history of Christianity and the history of philosophy and the history of science.
Is there religious intolerance of this dialog that is contrasting scientific essence directly with the religious essence? If any religious intolerance exists then it would seems unreasonable when considering that this dialog on this thread is the intellectual gift that Christopher Monckton gave commenters when he provided the juxtaposition of diplomacy, science and his Christian religion. I sincerely thank him.
John

January 4, 2013 10:21 am

Oops!
I made a goofy mistake in my above comment Whitman on January 4, 2013 at 10:09 am addressed to richardscourtney.
(I fumbled up autocomplete).
Here is a corrected paragraph:

Again you are assuming false philosophical positions as I have presented to you in my previous comments to you on this thread. Here are previous comments to you:

Sorry.
John

richardscourtney
January 4, 2013 12:59 pm

John Whitman:
Your recent posts addressed to me increase my righteous anger which I explained in my post addressed to you at January 4, 2013 at 2:05 am.
I will not play your silly games: you have become an insufferable pest.
Richard

January 4, 2013 3:05 pm

I wish I could have emailed this to Moncton and Richard but I can’t. It’s about Fuchida, the [Japanese commander] that led the attack on Pearl Harbor. This is just the introduction to the booklet. In the context of CAGW, if you can’t give your enemy the chance to become your friend, then maybe you have something yet to learn.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/fuchida1.html

January 4, 2013 5:23 pm

richardscourtney says:
January 4, 2013 at 12:59 pm
John Whitman:
Your recent posts addressed to me increase my righteous anger which I explained in my post addressed to you at January 4, 2013 at 2:05 am.
I will not play your silly games: you have become an insufferable pest.
Richard

– – – – – – – –
Richardscourtney,
In this thread’s open and sincere discussion, which I find rather typical of sincere intellectual ones which have spanned millennia in the history of philosophy, history of science and the history of Christianity, you evoke a “righteous anger” and resort to name calling, e.g., names like; silly, games, insufferable, pests.
And still I will remain civil toward you. I do not have pity toward your words or actions and express my attitude toward you by these lines from a poem by D.H. Lawrence,

I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

I suggest you should check your premises wrt the topics on this thread. All the issues on this thread are relevant to the phenomena surrounding the scientific cargo cult sect that promotes its ‘pseudo-science’ supporting CAGW.
John

richardscourtney
January 4, 2013 5:36 pm

Gunga Din:
re your post at January 4, 2013 at 3:05 pm.
Yes, I saw it when you first posted the link. I apologise that I failed to thank you for it then. Sorry.
As you say, it is a very good example of ‘making your enemy your friend’.
Richard