Haigh Anxiety: a psycho-comedy of errors

Guest post by Alec Rawls

In an interview with NewScientist magazine, Imperial College professor of atmospheric physics Joanna Haigh scoffs at the idea that late 20th century warming could have been caused by the sun:

Haigh points out that the sun actually began dimming slightly in the mid-1980s, if we take an average over its 11-year cycle, so fewer GCRs should have been deflected from Earth and more Earth-cooling clouds should have formed. “If there were some way cosmic rays could be causing global climate change, it should have started getting colder after 1985.”

What she means is that the 20th century’s persistent high level of solar activity peaked in 1985. That is the estimate developed by Mike Lockwood and Claus Fröhlich. The actual peak was later (solar cycle 22, which ended in 1996, was stronger than cycle 21 by almost every measure) but set that aside. Who could possibly think that cooling should commence when forcings are at their peak, just because the very highest peak has been passed?

Haigh’s argument against solar warming was in response to my suggestion that one new sentence in the leaked Second Order Draft of AR5 is a “game changer.” That is the sentence where the authors admit strong evidence that some substantial mechanism of solar amplification must be at work. The only solar forcing in the IPCC’s computer models is Total Solar Irradiance so if some solar forcing beyond TSI is also at work then all their model results are wrong.

No, no, no, Haigh told the NewScientist, it is “the bloggers” who have it all wrong:

They’re misunderstanding, either deliberately or otherwise, what that sentence is meant to say.

Look whose accusing people of misunderstanding. This woman thinks that warming is driven, not by the level of the temperature forcing, but by the rate of change in the level of the forcing. When a forcing goes barely past its peak (solar cycle 22 nearly identical in magnitude to cycle 21), does that really create cooling? Haigh should try it at home: put a pot of water on a full burner for a minute then turn the burner down to medium high. Does she really think the pot will stop warming, or that it will actually start to cool?

“Deliberately or otherwise,” this is an astounding misunderstanding of the very most basic physics, and Haigh is not the only consensus scientist who is making this particular “mistake.” Hers is the stock answer that pretty much every “consensus” scientists gives when asked about the solar-warming hypothesis. I have collected examples from a dozen highly regarded scientists: Lockwood, Solanki, Forster, Muscheler, Benestad, and more. Not surprisingly, it turns out that they are all making some crucial unstated assumptions.

Solar warming and ocean equilibrium

To claim that the 20th century’s high level of solar forcing would only cause warming until some particular date such as 1970, or 1980, or 1987, one must be assuming that the oceans had equilibrated by that date to the ongoing high level of forcing. That’s just the definition of equilibrium. After a step up in forcing the system will continue to warm until equilibrium is reached.

When I asked these scientists if they were making an unstated assumption that the oceans must have equilibrated by 1980 say to whatever forcing effect high 20th century solar activity was having, almost all of them answered yes, each giving their own off-the-cuff rationale for this assumption, none of which stand up to the least bit of scrutiny. Isaac Held’s two-box model of ocean equilibration is better than Mike Lockwood’s one-box model, but just move to the next simplest model, a three-box model of ocean equilibration, and any idea that longer term forcing won’t cause longer term warming collapses.

The well mixed upper ocean layer (the top 100-200 meters) does equilibrate rapidly to a change in forcing, showing a response time of less than ten years, but that isn’t the end of the story. As the top layer warms up it transfers heat to the next deeper ocean layers. If the elevated forcing persists then these next deeper layers will continue to warm on the time scale of multiple decades to multiple centuries. This warming will reduce the temperature differential between the upper and deeper layers, causing there to be less and less heat loss over time from the upper to the deeper layers, causing the upper layer to continue to warm on the time scale of multiple decades to multiple centuries.

This accords with what we actually see. Since the 50 year absence of sunspots that coincided with the bottom of the Little Ice Age, 300 years of uneven warming have  coincided with an uneven rise in solar activity. Any claim that these three centuries of natural warming had to have ended by a particular 20th century date (never mind right when solar activity was at its peak), is at the very least highly speculative. To claim that we can be confident that this is what happened is borderline insane.

Or maybe it’s that other thing that Joanna Haigh insinuates about. Maybe there is an element of deliberateness to this “misunderstanding” where scads of PhD scientists all pretend that warming is driven by the rate of change of the temperature forcing, not the level of the forcing. How else to blame late 20th century warming on human activity? Some rationale has to be given for why it can’t have been caused by the high level of solar activity that was still raging. Aha, what if temperature were driven by the trend in the forcing rather than the level of the forcing? That would do it. Let’s say that one. Let’s pretend that even peak forcing will cause cooling as soon as the trend in the forcing turns down.

It’s one psycho-drama or the other: either Haigh’s insinuations about dishonesty are projection, accusing others of what she and her cohorts are actually doing, or she’s just dumber than a box of rocks.

Haigh also channels Steven Sherwood, pretending that the highlighted sentence is just about GCR-cloud

The draft report acknowledges substantial evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification and lists Henrick Svensmark’s GCR-cloud theory as an example of one possible such mechanism (7-43 of the SOD):

Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system (e.g., Bond et al., 2001; Dengel et al., 2009; Ram and Stolz, 1999). The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.

Haigh claims that the evidence about cloud formation being induced by cosmic rays points to a weak mechanism, then simply ignores the report’s admission of substantial evidence that some such mechanism must be at work:

Haigh says that if Rawls had read a bit further, he would have realised that the report goes on to largely dismiss the evidence that cosmic rays have a significant effect. “They conclude there’s very little evidence that it has any effect,” she says.

Rawls says that if Haigh had read the actual sentence itself, she would have realized that it isn’t about galactic cosmic rays, but only mentions GCR-cloud as one possible solar amplifier.

Aussie climatologist Steven Sherwood did the same thing, claiming (very prematurely) that the evidence does not support GCR-cloud as a substantial mechanism of solar amplification, then pretending away the report’s admission of clear evidence that some substantial such mechanism is at work:

He says the idea that the chapter he authored confirms a greater role for solar and other cosmic rays in global warming is “ridiculous”.

“I’m sure you could go and read those paragraphs yourself and the summary of it and see that we conclude exactly the opposite – that this cosmic ray effect that the paragraph is discussing appears to be negligible,” he told PM.

As JoNova and I blogged last weekend, this ploy inverts the scientific method, using theory (dissatisfaction with one particular theory of solar amplification) as an excuse for ignoring the evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification. Using theory to dismiss evidence is pure, definitional anti-science. Unfortunately, NewScientist gives this slick anti-scientist the last word:

“The most interesting aspect of this little event is it reveals how deeply in denial the climate deniers are,” says Steven Sherwood of the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia – one of the lead authors of the chapter in question. “If they can look at a short section of a report and walk away believing it says the opposite of what it actually says, and if this spin can be uncritically echoed by very influential blogs, imagine how wildly they are misinterpreting the scientific evidence.”

Sherwood and Haigh are flat lying to the public about what a simple single sentence says, pretending the admission of strong evidence for some substantial mechanism of enhanced solar forcing was never made, then trusting sympathetic reporters and editors not to call them on it. This is why the report had to be made public. After my submitted comments showed how thoroughly the new sentence undercuts the entire report it was obvious that the consensoids who run the IPCC would take the sentence right back out, and here Sherwood and Haigh are already trying to do exactly that.

Too late, anti-scientists. Your humbug is on display for the whole world to see.

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mpainter
December 21, 2012 9:09 pm

Carter says:
“I can see so far ahead is because I’m standing on the shoulders of giants”
=======================================
Yes, like a monkey on a leash, but they’re not giants- they’re dwarves standing on a heap of bullshit.

Paul Vaughan
December 21, 2012 9:10 pm

Ferdinand Engelbeen (December 21, 2012 at 11:24 am) wrote:
“[…] there is a lot of empirical evidence that there indeed is a link between solar activity in general and climate (but if that is by GCR or the UV/ozone/jet stream position or another mechanism, for me still is unresolved).”

December 21, 2012 9:17 pm

lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:32 pm
“Studies of magnetic field indicators suggest that changes over the 19th and 20th centuries were more modest than those assumed in the Shapiro et al. (2011) reconstruction (Lockwood and Owens, 2011; Svalgaard and Cliver, 2010).”
See Leif, magnetic field indicators are not “perfect” indicators of solar luminosity multidedacal trending. Magnetic field indicators are mostly correlated with sunspot activity, and the sunspot record is flat in the sense that the sunspot cycle minimum cannot go below zero, so it is bounded. So, everything that strongly depends on the sunspot will appear flat as well.
The trending in TSI and other solar activity components are mostly connected to the background solar radiation that cannot be properly modeled up to now and the direct measurements are controversial because ACRIM uses the TSI data as they are and shows a significant variability, while PMOD uses altered data and does not show a variability.
Thus, several solar scientists have different opinions about how to handle or model the background variation, that is why there are so many different TSI reconstructions. Shapiro’s model is quite different from the other models because it is based on a luminosity comparison among solar-like stars which appear to present a certain variability. In any case, even if Shapiro’s model is wrong that does not make you flat solar model true.
That the IPCC prefers a quasi-flat solar activity is politically clear. If not they would not have promoted the PMOD and Lean’s models. Despite that, they reject your flat sun reconstruction as extreme, and the GCM modelers use Lean’s model.

December 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Philip Bradley says:
December 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm
This is the Forbush event cosmic ray – diurnal temperature range paper.
The paper notes that “The natural variability of atmospheric parameters makes the CR contribution difficult to detect”.
This, of course, means that the CRs are not a major driver [if their contribution is difficult to detect].

December 21, 2012 9:39 pm

Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:17 pm
See Leif, magnetic field indicators are not “perfect” indicators of solar luminosity multidedacal trending. Magnetic field indicators are mostly correlated with sunspot activity, and the sunspot record is flat in the sense that the sunspot cycle minimum cannot go below zero, so it is bounded. So, everything that strongly depends on the sunspot will appear flat as well.
You are seeing the light!
The trending in TSI and other solar activity components are mostly connected to the background solar radiation that cannot be properly modeled up to now and the direct measurements are controversial because ACRIM uses the TSI data as they are and shows a significant variability, while PMOD uses altered data and does not show a variability.
The ACRIM data is no good [as you should know] and the PMOD data is also no good [has uncompensated degradation]. The null-hypothesis must be that there is no background variation. This is also the conclusion by Schrijver et al. and Preminger et al. who show that there is no background variation. Using the cycle average of the Group Sunspot Number as a background variation fails because the GSN itself is flawed.
Despite that, they reject your flat sun reconstruction as extreme, and the GCM modelers use Lean’s model
Nowhere does IPCC refer to my reconstruction, except in the supplement to Chapter 8 where they take note that changes over the 19th and 20th centuries were modest. The GCM modelers prefer Lean’s model because that explains the increase in Temperatures in the first half of the 20th century, but that is just circular ‘logic’.

December 21, 2012 9:40 pm

lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:23 pm
The paper notes that “The natural variability of atmospheric parameters makes the CR contribution difficult to detect”.
This, of course, means that the CRs are not a major driver [if their contribution is difficult to detect].

They are trying to detect changes over the span of a few days. By way of comparison, climate science is struggling to detect the effects of CO2 over a few decades, where natural variability is at least an order of magnitude smaller..
If the study holds up and it should be fairly easy to replicate with a larger sample, the GCR mechanism will be established and to some extent quantified. The next step is to look for GCR changes over decades, which is, what is climatically significant.

Shawnhet
December 21, 2012 9:42 pm

Leif:”What I [or you] think is not relevant. What matters is what IPCC thought when their statement was written. To me, it is crystal clear what their thinking was and what conclusion they would admit.”
Yes, I know it seems clear to you what their thinking is, unfortunately, what you think that they are saying is not what they actually say.
You think that “…the GCR hypothesis as the one standing” and so if you can demonstrate
the GCR link doesn’t work you don’t have to deal with the implied solar amplification. However, the IPCC doesn’t make any claims about the GCR being the [last] one standing, and we know this, for instance, because some of the papers they list don’t even mention the GCR cloud link.
Or to look at it another way, ignore what the IPCC wrote and just read the paper(s). If assuming that the GCR-cloud link invalidates the papers’ conclusions, then you are right to say that when the IPCC refers to those papers, they are only talking about them in the context of the GCR relationship. If the papers’ conclusions remain valid assuming the GCR-climate link is false, then solely by referring to those papers, they are implying relationships that are not dependent on that link. QED.
Cheers, 🙂

JJ
December 21, 2012 9:50 pm

lsvalgaard says:
What I [or you] think is not relevant. What matters is what IPCC thought when their statement was written. To me, it is crystal clear what their thinking was and what conclusion they would admit.

Do tell.
Please provide the crystal clear thinking that can explain how it is that the IPCC made a statement that was, according to you “all about GCR” while citing Bond . Bond is not about GCR/clouds. It isn’t about GCR. The only thing that Bond uses GCR for is the basis for their nuclide proxy for TSI. The climate link in Bond is not GCR. The climate link in Bond is amplified TSI. Said amplification occuring by way of stratospheric ozone production, wind drift of polar ice, and changes to the thermohaline circulation, etc. Not GCR. Not clouds.
So, when IPCC says:
“Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system (e.g., Bond et al., 2001; Dengel et al., 2009; Ram and Stolz, 1999). The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.”
They are referring to a climate effect caused by TSI amplification, and neither the climate effect nor the TSI amplification is postulated to be in any way caused by GCR (i.e. Bond 2001). And then IPCC goes on to dismiss that reference by poo-pooing GCR/Clouds, hiding behind “such as”. Their thinking when they wrote it is that they could get away with the bait and switch. That much is crystal clear.
The fuzzy part is your reading comprehension.

December 21, 2012 9:51 pm

Shawnhet says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:42 pm
However, the IPCC doesn’t make any claims about the GCR being the [last] one standing, and we know this, for instance, because some of the papers they list don’t even mention the GCR cloud link.
The IPCC only considers the GCR effect in what follows and have no mention of any other mechanism they would think to be a contender. That is the critical point.
Or to look at it another way, ignore what the IPCC wrote and just read the paper(s).
I know these papers very well and have discussed the matter with Gerard Bond on several occasions, e.g. here http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/sns/2003/sns_dec_2003.pdf
[page 4, it is Bond at the left].
If assuming that the GCR-cloud link invalidates the papers’ conclusions
Who cares what we assume? What matters is what IPCC assumes and subsequently elaborates on.

John West
December 21, 2012 9:56 pm

D
You are confusing transient response with equilibrium response. What you “feel” may be an inflection but not a complete reversal in direction of temperature until that cloud has shaded you for quite a while.
Noon is daily solar insolation maximum yet daily temperature maximum is still hours away. That is not immediate and doesn’t rely on “feelings”. Same thing happens with the annual cycle. Why wouldn’t we expect the same thing to happen on a ~1100 year cycle? the ~2000 year cycle? etc. etc.

December 21, 2012 9:56 pm

A few observations and perhaps error corrections.

Gail Combs says December 21, 2012 at 5:57 pm
… The effect is not to change the absolute value or the speed/rate of rise or fall, it is to change the acceleration (first derivative) and that is exactly what we are seeing.

Changing the speed/rate of rise *is* to change the acceleration (the 1st derivative); non-zero values indicate a change in speed.
And just what is it *we* are ‘seeing’? With temperatures stable for the last 15 yrs or so does this not indicate 1st derivative = 0?

As for any “….change in forcing will affect the primary absorber, the near surface layers of the ocean immediately. And this will affect air temperatures on very short time scales….” It depends on the definition of “immediately” because we ARE starting to seeing changes however the oceans hold a heck of a lot of water which has a very high specific heat.
You can see the changes here – http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/enso/mei/ts.gif
here – http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/service/global/snowcover-nhland/201210.gif
here – http://i45.tinypic.com/27yr1wy.png
here – http://drtimball.com/2012/current-global-weather-patterns-normal-despite-government-and-media-distortions/ [This points to Tim Ball article with title: Current Global Weather Patterns Normal Despite Government and Media Distortions]

Those ‘cites’ would not seem to support your thesis, to wit: ” we ARE starting to seeing changes“, and, in fact, your thesis seems to be directly countered by Tim’s article which you seem to indicate supports your thesis.
Perhaps we could all use some of your insight to properly interpret those cited graphs and charts to arrive at your conclusion?

The evident changes in the Jets I picked up on a few years ago. – The Prevailing Westerlies used to make figuring out the weather easy a decade ago, but they are no longer ‘trustworthy.’

No support is provided for this assertion. ‘jets’ [jetstreams] by their nature meander. Perhaps that is where the confusion arises? (They are not strictly W-E flowing winds.)
Satellite Observation: If this real-time image does not depict ‘prevailing westerlies’ then I don’t know what it depicts (NOTICE the systems move W to E):
http://weather.rap.ucar.edu/satellite/displaySat.php?region=US&itype=wv&size=large&endDate=20121222&endTime=-1&duration=4

Since my business is completely dependent on the weather I have to very accurately predict the short term weather 100% of the time or pay up to a $1000 a day penalty when I mess-up. I am much better at it than the radio weathermen in my area because I scrutinize the jet streams and the rest of the weather maps.

Depending on the ‘radio weatherman’ to correctly tear off and read a regional, non-area specific, up-to-date weather-wire dispatch off the teletype is risky; suggest a subscription service to a professional weathercast service versus scrounging off the internet or ‘winging’ it on your own. (My opinion.)

The 2010 Russian heat wave: blocking high, not global warming and the current Cold Blast Claim[ing] Over 600 Lives Across Eastern Europe/Russia…” are both manifestations of these changes in the jets from zonal to meridional flow patterns.

‘Blocking highs’ still allow the movement of ‘prevailing winds’ to move about their periphery, they (BH’s) are not simply static features wherein everything simply stops in place! For the period that the BH is in place, the jetstream can still be active in the periphery of the high.
A couple of resources if you don’t already make use of them: The (1) Convective and Mesoscale Discussion web pages by the SPC and a website where you can view a WV (water vapor) time-lapse loop:
(1) http://www.spc.noaa.gov/
(2) http://weather.rap.ucar.edu/satellite/
.

December 21, 2012 9:56 pm

Philip Bradley says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:40 pm
If the study holds up and it should be fairly easy to replicate with a larger sample, the GCR mechanism will be established and to some extent quantified.
You could benefit from a thorough study of http://www.leif.org/EOS/swsc120049-GCR-Clouds.pdf
Conclusion: “it is clear that there is no robust evidence of a widespread link between the cosmic ray flux and clouds”.
Perhaps their conclusion puts you off so you won’t read the paper, but try anyway.

December 21, 2012 10:01 pm

Addition to my previous post.
I was talking about the problem of the background radiation that people do not know how to properly model (although if Leif speaks as if he knows it! He does not of what he is talking about, of course).
As I was saying, the IPCC and the AGW guys use Lean’s TSI model that is quite flat, although not so flat as Leif’s model.
Now, Lean’s model is clearly wrong and unable to reproduce the TSI background radiation.
The demonstration of this elementary fact is simple and was even acknowledged by Frolich of PMOD, which coauthored some of Lean’s papers. The fact is that Lean’s model is failing to agree with the TSI observations!
In fact, if we give a look at the TSI composite, here
http://acrim.com/TSI%20Monitoring.htm
both ACRIM and PMOD clearly show that the TSI minimum in 2008 was lower than the TSI minimum in 1996 by at least 0.2-0.3 W/m^2.
However, Lean’s model used by the IPCC AGW guys does not show this pattern, but the opposite.
See here Lean’s reconstruction used by the IPCC
http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/tsi_data/TSI_TIM_Reconstruction.txt
The minimum in 1996 was 1360.7380 W/m^2, while the minimum in 2008 was 1360.8225 W/m^2
Thus, according Lean’s model TSI went up from the 1996 solar minimum to the 2008 solar minimum by about 0.1 W/m^2, while both PMOD and ACRIM show a decrease by at least 0.2-0.3 W/m^2, which makes an error of 0.3-0.4 W/^2, which is a huge error by 30-40% of the solar cycle amplitude.
Thus, it is evident that Lean’s model, which is based on a flux transport model to simulate the Sun’s magnetic flux does not reconstruct TSI multidecadal trending variations, Thus, also the argument of Leif based on magnetic activity model are likely wrong, and the Sun varied more than what Leif or Lean or the IPCC claim.
May somebody inform the IPCC to correct their misleading statement supporting Leif and Lean, by letting them know about the above problem?

December 21, 2012 10:09 pm

“They are trying to detect changes over the span of a few days. By way of comparison, climate science is struggling to detect the effects of CO2 over a few decades, where natural variability is at least an order of magnitude smaller..
If the study holds up and it should be fairly easy to replicate with a larger sample, the GCR mechanism will be established and to some extent quantified. The next step is to look for GCR changes over decades, which is, what is climatically significant.
###############
Once again, I challenge any believer in the GCR effect to PROPOSE A TEST.
we have solar radiation data. we have GCR data.
You think one effects the other? What test will you do? and will you live with the results?
I’m going on over a year waiting for somebody to step up to that challenge.
http://stevemosher.wordpress.com/?s=Forbush
During a Forbush event you have an increase in GCR.
increased GCR are suppose to result in more clouds
I have hourly incoming solar radiation data from Anthony Watts Approved Gold Standard Stations.
And nobody wants to suggest a test.
You see its easy to be a skeptic and doubt what others do. It’s hard to be a scientist like Leif.

December 21, 2012 10:09 pm

Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:17 pm
the background solar radiation that cannot be properly modeled up to now and the direct measurements are controversial because ACRIM uses the TSI data as they are and shows a significant variability, while PMOD uses altered data and does not show a variability.
As I said, ACRIM is no good for such comparisons. Here you can see how poorly ACRIM performs: http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2011ScienceMeeting/docs/posters/Pa_Cookson_poster.pdf
For Real TSI datasets 2003­03­02 to 2010­05­04 (~7yrs)
● SFO fit to SORCE R2=0.947
● SFO fit to PMOD R2=0.920
● SFO fit to ACRIM R2=0.747 <===

December 21, 2012 10:12 pm

Philip Bradley says:
December 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm (Edit)
This is the Forbush event cosmic ray – diurnal temperature range paper.
http://www.astrophys-space-sci-trans.net/7/315/2011/astra-7-315-2011.pdf
The size of the effect is 0.38C; 0.5C for the largest Forbush events, and maximum effect is right when you would expect to see it, 2 to 3 days after the event.
Not often in climate science you get a close fit between prediction and observation, but they certainly did in this case.
#############
Sorry. I followed their methodology using better observation data and their result could not be duplicated. DTR is an INDIRECT measure of cloudiness as DTR can vary for other reasons.
What you want is a DIRECT measure of cloudiness– eg decreased incoming solar radiation

December 21, 2012 10:12 pm

Steven Mosher says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:09 pm
During a Forbush event you have an increase in GCR.
an increase in Solar CRs, but a decrease in GCRs; that’s why it is called a Forbush Decrease.

December 21, 2012 10:16 pm

lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm says
“The ACRIM data is no good [as you should know] and the PMOD data is also no good [has uncompensated degradation]. The null-hypothesis must be that there is no background variation. This is also the conclusion by Schrijver et al. and Preminger et al. who show that there is no background variation. Using the cycle average of the Group Sunspot Number as a background variation fails because the GSN itself is flawed.”
Leif’s logic is curious. He says:
1) “ACRIM data are not good” but leif does not demonstrate it nor he quantifies and specifies the error (data may be imperfect, but still good enough for specific major patterns).
2) “PMOD data is also no good [has uncompensated degradation]”, however Leif forgets to state that Frolich is correcting his data for the instrumental degradation. That there exists an uncompensated degradation is a Leif’s postulation because PMOd data do not agree with his flat solar model. From what I know Frolich rejected his claims.
3) “The null-hypothesis must be that there is no background variation.” Really? where is it written, in the Bible? The null-hypothesis must be the luminosity variability observed for sun-like stars as Shapiro does.
4) “This is also the conclusion by Schrijver et al. and Preminger et al. who show that there is no background variation.” Really? How do they know? The TSI experiments say differently.
5) “Using the cycle average of the Group Sunspot Number as a background variation fails because the GSN itself is flawed”. Really? Group Sunspot Number cannot be properly used for the background variation because it is mathematically bounded by being positive defined, not because they are flawed. You do not know much math, don’t you?

Rathnakumar
December 21, 2012 10:19 pm

Thank you for the fascinating post! I wish the solar physicists were not as dumb as the climate non-scientists.

December 21, 2012 10:20 pm

Leif
“The latter analyses frequently focus on sudden high-magnitude reductions in the cosmic ray
flux known as Forbush Decrease events. At present, two long-term independent global satellite cloud datasets are available (ISCCP and MODIS). Although the differences between them are considerable, neither shows evidence of a solar-cloud link at either long or short timescales. Furthermore, reports of observed correlations between solar activity and cloud over the 1983–1995 period are attributed to the chance agreement between solar changes and artificially induced cloud trends.”
Ya, In addition to looking at hourly insolation data during a Forbush I could also look at MODIS cloudiness as I’ve got my tools together for that data. However, Banging on the internet for terabytes of data is a PITA. That said, I have found some interesting increased cloudiness over larger cities. I’m going to have a look at MODIS04 aerosols which just dropped in my lap ( some bugs to work out for a guy). to see whats up with that.

December 21, 2012 10:27 pm

Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:01 pm
both ACRIM and PMOD clearly show that the TSI minimum in 2008 was lower than the TSI minimum in 1996 by at least 0.2-0.3 W/m^2.
Werner Schmutz at the SORCE 2011 meeting in Sedona admitted that the PMOD decrease was an artifact [i.e. nor due to the Sun] of 0.2 W/m^2. See slide 29 of http://www.leif.org/research/The%20long-term%20variation%20of%20solar%20activity.pdf

December 21, 2012 10:34 pm

Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:16 pm
Ignoring your other nonsense, I’ll comment on:
5) “Using the cycle average of the Group Sunspot Number as a background variation fails because the GSN itself is flawed”. Really? Group Sunspot Number cannot be properly used for the background variation because it is mathematically bounded by being positive defined, not because they are flawed. You do not know much math, don’t you?
Nevertheless, the 11-running average GSN is used by people reconstructing TSI by assuming that the emergence of background flux scales with the overall level of solar activity [they use the cycle average GSN as an estimate]. You didn’t know that? Now you do.

Shawnhet
December 21, 2012 10:35 pm

Steve Mosher,
I must say I am finding your position here very confusing.
Firstly, you say that no one is proposing a test and then when people do point out tests that are out there you appear to be claiming that they are not good enough. However, your proof of this seems to be based on data for a single Forbush decrease measured at 9 stations not to mention the fact that you do not mention the relative strength of the decrease in question.
Personally, I don’t see how your test can be viewed as at all robust compared with the Dragic et al. paper but leaving that aside it seems to me that there is a pretty big difference proposing a relationship and having it shown to be invalid and not being able to propose a relationship at all.
Cheers, 🙂

December 21, 2012 10:37 pm

lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:09 pm
As I said, ACRIM is no good for such comparisons. Here you can see how poorly ACRIM performs: http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2011ScienceMeeting/docs/posters/Pa_Cookson_poster.pdf
**********************
Leif is a curious guy. ACRIM performs poorly because a TSI proxy model made by SFO which is based on “ground based photometry” poorly agrees with an “uncorrected” version of ACRIM3 dataset! Which is what was used in that poster!
Leif, does not know of what he is talking about, as usual.

John West
December 21, 2012 10:48 pm

lsvalgaard says:
“UV has not shown any trend since 1722, only faithfully followed the sunspot number which also does not have any trend over the 300 years, so cannot be involved in any climate trend.”
Pretty greasy choosing a year that’s pulling up out of a grand minimum thereby matching our current dropping into a grand minimum so you can claim “no trend”.
“But perhaps you are denying that the climate has a trend over that time?”
Perhaps it won’t after the lag time is up and it drops like rock to 1722 levels and then it will just be faithfully following sunspot numbers as well ….. or maybe not. I suppose time will tell.
Until such time I oppose legislating CO2 emissions. (Period)
http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/sun_questions.html

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