In an interview with NewScientist magazine, Imperial College professor of atmospheric physics Joanna Haigh scoffs at the idea that late 20th century warming could have been caused by the sun:
Haigh points out that the sun actually began dimming slightly in the mid-1980s, if we take an average over its 11-year cycle, so fewer GCRs should have been deflected from Earth and more Earth-cooling clouds should have formed. “If there were some way cosmic rays could be causing global climate change, it should have started getting colder after 1985.”
What she means is that the 20th century’s persistent high level of solar activity peaked in 1985. That is the estimate developed by Mike Lockwood and Claus Fröhlich. The actual peak was later (solar cycle 22, which ended in 1996, was stronger than cycle 21 by almost every measure) but set that aside. Who could possibly think that cooling should commence when forcings are at their peak, just because the very highest peak has been passed?
Haigh’s argument against solar warming was in response to my suggestion that one new sentence in the leaked Second Order Draft of AR5 is a “game changer.” That is the sentence where the authors admit strong evidence that some substantial mechanism of solar amplification must be at work. The only solar forcing in the IPCC’s computer models is Total Solar Irradiance so if some solar forcing beyond TSI is also at work then all their model results are wrong.
No, no, no, Haigh told the NewScientist, it is “the bloggers” who have it all wrong:
They’re misunderstanding, either deliberately or otherwise, what that sentence is meant to say.
Look whose accusing people of misunderstanding. This woman thinks that warming is driven, not by the level of the temperature forcing, but by the rate of change in the level of the forcing. When a forcing goes barely past its peak (solar cycle 22 nearly identical in magnitude to cycle 21), does that really create cooling? Haigh should try it at home: put a pot of water on a full burner for a minute then turn the burner down to medium high. Does she really think the pot will stop warming, or that it will actually start to cool?
“Deliberately or otherwise,” this is an astounding misunderstanding of the very most basic physics, and Haigh is not the only consensus scientist who is making this particular “mistake.” Hers is the stock answer that pretty much every “consensus” scientists gives when asked about the solar-warming hypothesis. I have collected examples from a dozen highly regarded scientists: Lockwood, Solanki, Forster, Muscheler, Benestad, and more. Not surprisingly, it turns out that they are all making some crucial unstated assumptions.
Solar warming and ocean equilibrium
To claim that the 20th century’s high level of solar forcing would only cause warming until some particular date such as 1970, or 1980, or 1987, one must be assuming that the oceans had equilibrated by that date to the ongoing high level of forcing. That’s just the definition of equilibrium. After a step up in forcing the system will continue to warm until equilibrium is reached.
When I asked these scientists if they were making an unstated assumption that the oceans must have equilibrated by 1980 say to whatever forcing effect high 20th century solar activity was having, almost all of them answered yes, each giving their own off-the-cuff rationale for this assumption, none of which stand up to the least bit of scrutiny. Isaac Held’s two-box model of ocean equilibration is better than Mike Lockwood’s one-box model, but just move to the next simplest model, a three-box model of ocean equilibration, and any idea that longer term forcing won’t cause longer term warming collapses.
The well mixed upper ocean layer (the top 100-200 meters) does equilibrate rapidly to a change in forcing, showing a response time of less than ten years, but that isn’t the end of the story. As the top layer warms up it transfers heat to the next deeper ocean layers. If the elevated forcing persists then these next deeper layers will continue to warm on the time scale of multiple decades to multiple centuries. This warming will reduce the temperature differential between the upper and deeper layers, causing there to be less and less heat loss over time from the upper to the deeper layers, causing the upper layer to continue to warm on the time scale of multiple decades to multiple centuries.
This accords with what we actually see. Since the 50 year absence of sunspots that coincided with the bottom of the Little Ice Age, 300 years of uneven warming have coincided with an uneven rise in solar activity. Any claim that these three centuries of natural warming had to have ended by a particular 20th century date (never mind right when solar activity was at its peak), is at the very least highly speculative. To claim that we can be confident that this is what happened is borderline insane.
Or maybe it’s that other thing that Joanna Haigh insinuates about. Maybe there is an element of deliberateness to this “misunderstanding” where scads of PhD scientists all pretend that warming is driven by the rate of change of the temperature forcing, not the level of the forcing. How else to blame late 20th century warming on human activity? Some rationale has to be given for why it can’t have been caused by the high level of solar activity that was still raging. Aha, what if temperature were driven by the trend in the forcing rather than the level of the forcing? That would do it. Let’s say that one. Let’s pretend that even peak forcing will cause cooling as soon as the trend in the forcing turns down.
It’s one psycho-drama or the other: either Haigh’s insinuations about dishonesty are projection, accusing others of what she and her cohorts are actually doing, or she’s just dumber than a box of rocks.
Haigh also channels Steven Sherwood, pretending that the highlighted sentence is just about GCR-cloud
The draft report acknowledges substantial evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification and lists Henrick Svensmark’s GCR-cloud theory as an example of one possible such mechanism (7-43 of the SOD):
Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system (e.g., Bond et al., 2001; Dengel et al., 2009; Ram and Stolz, 1999). The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.
Haigh claims that the evidence about cloud formation being induced by cosmic rays points to a weak mechanism, then simply ignores the report’s admission of substantial evidence that some such mechanism must be at work:
Haigh says that if Rawls had read a bit further, he would have realised that the report goes on to largely dismiss the evidence that cosmic rays have a significant effect. “They conclude there’s very little evidence that it has any effect,” she says.
Rawls says that if Haigh had read the actual sentence itself, she would have realized that it isn’t about galactic cosmic rays, but only mentions GCR-cloud as one possible solar amplifier.
Aussie climatologist Steven Sherwood did the same thing, claiming (very prematurely) that the evidence does not support GCR-cloud as a substantial mechanism of solar amplification, then pretending away the report’s admission of clear evidence that some substantial such mechanism is at work:
He says the idea that the chapter he authored confirms a greater role for solar and other cosmic rays in global warming is “ridiculous”.
“I’m sure you could go and read those paragraphs yourself and the summary of it and see that we conclude exactly the opposite – that this cosmic ray effect that the paragraph is discussing appears to be negligible,” he told PM.
As JoNova and I blogged last weekend, this ploy inverts the scientific method, using theory (dissatisfaction with one particular theory of solar amplification) as an excuse for ignoring the evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification. Using theory to dismiss evidence is pure, definitional anti-science. Unfortunately, NewScientist gives this slick anti-scientist the last word:
“The most interesting aspect of this little event is it reveals how deeply in denial the climate deniers are,” says Steven Sherwood of the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia – one of the lead authors of the chapter in question. “If they can look at a short section of a report and walk away believing it says the opposite of what it actually says, and if this spin can be uncritically echoed by very influential blogs, imagine how wildly they are misinterpreting the scientific evidence.”
Sherwood and Haigh are flat lying to the public about what a simple single sentence says, pretending the admission of strong evidence for some substantial mechanism of enhanced solar forcing was never made, then trusting sympathetic reporters and editors not to call them on it. This is why the report had to be made public. After my submitted comments showed how thoroughly the new sentence undercuts the entire report it was obvious that the consensoids who run the IPCC would take the sentence right back out, and here Sherwood and Haigh are already trying to do exactly that.
Too late, anti-scientists. Your humbug is on display for the whole world to see.

FAO D Böehm
‘Obviously nothing makes sense to your wild-eyed arm waver. I couldn’t watch past 29 seconds, he was so crazy’ 29 seconds, why does the truth hurt! Not a very good move to admit that you wear blinkers’ What else makes you blind?
‘Explain for us your version of why the recovery from the LIA has been along the same trend line, whether CO2 was low or high’ So who is trying to change the subject now?
‘We can’t debate with a video’ Why not! Is it because there is so much science in it and you would prefer myths? Because there is always a new one coming along!
‘The main drivers of the Little Ice Age cooling were decreased solar activity and increased volcanic activity. These factors cannot account for the global warming observed over the past 40 years. Furthermore, it is physically incorrect to state that the planet is simply “recovering” from the Little Ice Age.-see Delaygue and Bard 2010.’
‘because there was no single,..period of prolonged cold around the planet. After 1600, there are records of average winters Europe and North America that were as much as 2°C lower(although the third coldest winter in England since 1659 was in 1963)…such as tree-ring records from around the northern hemisphere suggest there were SEVERAL widespread cold intervals between 1580 and 1850’
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11645-climate-myths-we-are-simply-recovering-from-the-little-ice-age.html
So that’s you dealt with! I might see you on a new thread, after you recover. But If I were you I would throw my hand in now, because you’re only bluffing with a busted flush!
Gail Combs says: @ur momisugly [ Quoting President Eisenhower]
“Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”
……..
lsvalgaard Replies @ur momisugly December 21, 2012 at 7:57 pm
Or the even greater danger that public policy could become captive of scientific illiterates.
……..
Lief what would you call a bunch of lawyers voted into office who wanted to legislate the value of Pi to equal 3.2.? See: The Indiana Pi Bill of 1897.
The legislatures of most state and federal governments are over run with lawyers not scientists or even business persons. Corporate lobbyists and advocacy groups use tame lawyers to sway these uneducated lawyers. All you have to do is read some of the leaked (Thank you Assange) Congressional Research Service Reports as I did when researching the issue of livestock traceability to know the senators and congressmen are often fed a load of bovine feces.
Believe me reading a pile of those reports forever changed my view of the way the US government works. I was also able to use those reports vs the actual truth to sway a couple of Congressmen.
Producing ‘Scientific Reports’ to use to sway uneducated politicians is now ‘big business’ and just as dirty as the rest of politics.
lsvalgaard says:
December 22, 2012 at 12:51 am
ferd berple says:
December 22, 2012 at 12:35 am
Temperatures started rising 150 years before CO2. Al Gore already showed that temperature leads CO2. Please try and keep up.
Who says that the rise in temperatures is related [either way] to the change in CO2?
You are being presumptuous
no, leif, sorry, I find ferd simply pointed to the data: temperature rose before CO2 did, if related or not, that is fact.
To say: CO2 the last 300 years has risen considerably as have temperatures… does simply not reflect al the information the data provides, it omits the fact that ferd pointed to.
Carter says: December 22, 2012 at 3:34 am
Where have you been? Your link to newscientist has a phoney temperature chart that was invented and debunked years ago. Proxies that represent actual history:
IPPC: http://i39.tinypic.com/bgemm9.jpg
Mohberg/Loehle: http://i46.tinypic.com/2lcvct1.jpg
Loehle-Mann: http://i39.tinypic.com/2q3arlw.jpg The purple squiggle on this chart is the proxy chart from your link. The real world varies much more than the fantasy world of newscientist.
Several hundred papers on all continents on the Medieval Warming Period that you claim was local.. http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/mwpp.php
Several thermometer histories, <200 to 350 years, all steadily climbing:
http://i55.tinypic.com/15hcnm.jpg
The attempt to rewrite history to enhance the negligible effect of increasing CO2 is too transparent, it won't work.
Islavgaard says:
“1722 was the year the effect was discovered. If it matches the current value but temperatures do not, what does that tell you?”
That there’s a temperature lag like the one we see every day and every year. What part of this is difficult to understand?
Carter says:
December 22, 2012 at 3:34 am
Proving that he is standing on the shoulders of gnats.
Wow, what a way for a scientist to divest himself of self respect
lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:01 pm
both ACRIM and PMOD clearly show that the TSI minimum in 2008 was lower than the TSI minimum in 1996 by at least 0.2-0.3 W/m^2.
Werner Schmutz at the SORCE 2011 meeting in Sedona admitted that the PMOD decrease was an artifact [i.e. nor due to the Sun] of 0.2 W/m^2. See slide 29 of http://www.leif.org/research/The%20long-term%20variation%20of%20solar%20activity.pdf
”
Leif is a nice guy. Very misleading. We are discussing whether solar activity might have been lower in 2008 than in 1996 as ACRIM and PMOD show for the TSI.
Leif stated that in his slide #29 there is the “demonstration” of a non change of level between the two 1996 and 2008 minima. That slide, of course, does not prove anything but just proposes the opinion of Schmutz that Frolich (who is responsible of the PMOD composite) does not share.
The issue may be solved by looking at alternative solar indexes. Does Leif presentation provide an possible answer? Well these are the slide where some solar index is plotted showing a lower 2008 level than the 1996 level:
slides: #4, #5, #7, #19, #30, #31, #32, #33, #35, #39, #40, #41, #42, #43, #44.
In all above slides Leif contradicts Leif!
A Forbush decrease is related to CME events. What if the cause of a CME also had an impact on the Earth’s climate? What if that impact could go either way? Wouldn’t that lead to a problem in detecting whether a Forbush decrease impacts our climate? That is, in one case the effect is amplified and in another the effect is reduced.
Good questions, right? What causes CMEs? Well, it is hypothesized they are caused by Solar Magnetic Reconnections. Now, we also know magnetism has two opposing charges. So, ……
Looks like an area for additional research.
Carter, you bozo, using New Scientist as your putative authority reduces your credibility down to Lewandowsky levels. Is that the best you can do? Read what Steve Keohane wrote above. Steve has forgotten more about the subject than you have ever learned, puppy.
You falsely assert that “there was no single,..period of prolonged cold around the planet.”
Wrong, as usual. The LIA was one of the coldest global episodes of the entire Holocene, and it was a world wide event, as shown in ice cores from both hemispheres. Those ice cores show conclusively that warming and cooling events were simultaneous in both hemispheres; thus they were global in extent.
Unlike your incredible New Scientist fantasy source, the charts I provided here were constructed from verifiable peer reviewed data. They show conclusively that the LIA was a global event, and much colder than average Holocene temperatures.
But you will continue in your scientific ignorance, relying on your ridiculous sources, because your incurable cognitive dissonance does not allow you to see reality: the planet has been much colder — and much warmer — at various times during the Holocene, when CO2 levels were far lower. Thus, the effect of CO2 is clearly insignificant. It is so small that it simply does not matter. Even though your mind is closed air tight and impervious to reality, other WUWT readers can see from the data posted what is commonly accepted among scientists: the LIA, like the MWP, the Roman Warm Period, the Minoan Optimum and the Holocene Optimum were worldwide events, as shown by numerous different proxies taken from every continent.
vukcevic says:
December 22, 2012 at 1:50 am
Perhaps you should read:
Four centuries of geomagnetic secular variation from historical records
If you do, you’ll find that:
“There is no intensity data from anywhere before 1832, and no measurements in the Arctic before 1882. So ‘data’ is extrapolated in time and space”
Gail Combs says:
December 22, 2012 at 3:35 am
Believe me reading a pile of those reports forever changed my view of the way the US government works.
Good that we agree.
Lars P. says:
December 22, 2012 at 4:34 am
I find ferd simply pointed to the data: temperature rose before CO2 did, if related or not, that is fact.
If you go back to the beginning of this ‘subthread’, you’ll find that I was responding to:
Camburn says:
December 21, 2012 at 7:49 am
“CO2 300 years ago did not show any appreciable rise”
and just pointing out that CO2 too has risen the past 300 years.
Nicola Scafetta says:
December 22, 2012 at 6:58 am
Well these are the slide where some solar index is plotted showing a lower 2008 level than the 1996 level
And that difference corresponds to a TSI difference of much less than the 0.25 W/m2 you advocate. But then your math isn’t too good. Remember
Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:16 pm
5) “Using the cycle average of the Group Sunspot Number as a background variation fails because the GSN itself is flawed”. Really? Group Sunspot Number cannot be properly used for the background variation because it is mathematically bounded by being positive defined, not because they are flawed. You do not know much math, don’t you?
And compare with http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0703147.pdf “Reconstruction of solar irradiance using the Group sunspot number”.
“:As such, when they reference papers that support an amplification of solar factors that has consequences beyond its application towards a specific mechanism”
Leif:”IPCC doesn’t think so.”
Then why refer to those papers at all? If all that section was about was disproving the GCR link why not just do that? You don’t need to refer to supposedly spurious correlations to solar proxies to disprove that.
“lsvalgaard says:
December 22, 2012 at 12:08 am
BTW, Bond never talked about ‘amplification’ of anything. He thought is was a straight solar irradiance relationship. So that argument goes out the window.
In the interest of accuracy, he did talk about ocean currents affecting the production of North Atlantic Deep Water, and that can help spread the suggested solar effect.”
Actually, in the interest of *complete* accuracy he refers to salinity changes as **amplifying** the solar influence. This is why the IPCC refers to this paper as implying an amplification … Seriously, any other interpretation is just playing word games.
Cheers, 🙂
Shawnhet says:
December 22, 2012 at 7:54 am
Then why refer to those papers at all? If all that section was about was disproving the GCR link why not just do that?
Which is what they did, in fact.
Shawnhet says:
December 22, 2012 at 7:54 am
he [Bond] refers to salinity changes as **amplifying** the solar influence.
He does that because his primary mechanism [decrease in TSI of 0.25%] only gives him a 0.17 degree decrease in temperature, so he needs a ‘hail Mary’ effect by postulating ‘solar-triggered’ salinity changes. However he does not provide specifics as to what that mechanism might be. This is the perennial problem: invoking unknown or unspecified causes. The IPCC correctly considers what might be only specific cause around [GCR-clouds] and then goes on to show [to their satisfaction] that that mechanism isn’t sufficient. You might disagree with their conclusion, but that is another matter.
Camburn says:
December 21, 2012 at 7:49 am
lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 7:36 am
“There has been no rise in solar activity the last 300 years.”
Which tells us all that there is something happening concerning climate that is not yet recognized.
Not really.
It is recognized that the temperature pattern in Canada has a relation to a solar tide pattern.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/ghi_23_edwards_2b.gif
It is recognized that the temperature pattern from E. Zorita et al. has a relation to a solar tide pattern.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/echo_g_vs_ghi.gif
It is recognized that the temperature pattern from the alps has a relation to a solar tide pattern.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/ghi_23_pa_ghi2.jpg
It recognized that the global temperature in phases of low ONI values has a relation to the solar tide pattern
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/had4_minus_oni.gif
It is recognized that the global sea level oscillations, which are superimposed to the uptrend of the sea level is time coherent in phase to the solar tide pattern of Mercury/Earth
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/sealevel_vs_sun.gif
These recognitions show that climate has a geometrical relation to solar functions.
‘Solar activity’ means what?
V.
Leif:”Then why refer to those papers at all? If all that section was about was disproving the GCR link why not just do that?
Which is what they did, in fact.”
I am willing to accept that arguendo. However, what have *consistently* failed to do was show why accepting this means anything about whether there is any sort of amplification of solar effects and then gone on to *ignore* the *explicit* statements from both the IPCC and the relevant papers. You have even gone to the point of stating that the Bond 2001 paper was not supportive of such an amplification when it clearly was(all the relevant papers were supportive of such an amplification, irrespective of the validity of the GCR link IMO).
Fixed something for LS ( replaced the part he omitted) so that he can start again
“Then why refer to those papers at all? If all that section was about was disproving the GCR link why not just do that? You don’t need to refer to supposedly spurious correlations to solar proxies to disprove that.”
Which is what they did, in fact.
lsvalgaard says:
December 22, 2012 at 7:54 am
vukcevic says:
“There is no intensity data from anywhere before 1832, and no measurements in the Arctic before 1882. So ‘data’ is extrapolated in time and space”
Solar flux, CO2, C14, 10Be or whatever else was not measured in 1832 either, but you do confidently tell us what they were then and many centuries before.
If you bother to take a look at sequence of events as shown in
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LL.htm
you will see that in the N. Hemisphere there are strong correlations between temperature, geomagnetic activity, tectonics and the solar cycles.
Either Bloxham &Jackson, Loehle and Vukcevic were all extremely lucky, all frauds or most likely the three sets of data they collected (geomagnetic, temperature & tectonics) do represent nature, which you are so eager to refute.
Sir, your assessment that all those correlations are ‘spurious’ is without a doubt the spurious one.
Leif:he [Bond] refers to salinity changes as **amplifying** the solar influence.
He does that because his primary mechanism [decrease in TSI of 0.25%] only gives him a 0.17 degree decrease in temperature, so he needs a ‘hail Mary’ effect by postulating ‘solar-triggered’ salinity changes. However he does not provide specifics as to what that mechanism might be. This is the perennial problem: invoking unknown or unspecified causes. The IPCC correctly considers what might be only specific cause around [GCR-clouds] and then goes on to show [to their satisfaction] that that mechanism isn’t sufficient. You might disagree with their conclusion, but that is another matter.
Ok, first off, to review. We can agree, I hope that the following post is in error and that the Bond paper is supportive of an amplification of solar effects (of some sort), right?
Shawnhet says:
December 21, 2012 at 11:11 pm
As such, when they reference papers that support an amplification of solar factors that has consequences beyond its application towards a specific mechanism
Leif:BTW, Bond never talked about ‘amplification’ of anything. He thought is was a straight solar irradiance relationship. So that argument goes out the window.
Yes, Bond needs what you call a “Hail Mary” to get the magnitude of the effects he observes. This “Hail Mary” is what he, I and the IPCC would call an amplification.
The IPCC might only consider specific mechanisms in detail but that doesn’t preclude them from recognizing other (apparently) significant correlations. They do recognize such a significant correlation in the form of the apparent existence of a solar amplification factor. There is really no other way to interpret the *totality* of what they have written.
Cheers, 🙂
‘Wrong, as usual’ so who doI believe? A nobody on the interweb or respected scientists or journalists? Now lets think about that, because it’s a difficult one!
AGU ice core data, that debunks a global MWP and confirms the ‘Hockey Stick’.
Global MWP busted again!
And you sound more desperate as the truth dawns on you, that you have being spreading disinformation, but now you have blocked yourself in a corner there is no way out, you’ve got to keep up with the illusion! Just like the King who had no new clothes!
‘Thus, the effect of CO2 is clearly insignificant’ like the 300,000ppm?
(Snip. As commenters have said, debate for yourself. ~ mod.)
lsvalgaard says:
December 22, 2012 at 7:54 am
vukcevic says:
“There is no intensity data from anywhere before 1832, and no measurements in the Arctic before 1882. So ‘data’ is extrapolated in time and space”
There is no solar flux, CO2, C14, 10Be or whatever was measured in 1832 either, but you confidently telling us what they are.
If you bother to take a look at sequence of events as shown in
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LL.htm
you will see that in the N. Hemisphere there are correlation between temperature, geomagnetic activity, tectonics and the solar cycles.
Either Bloxham &Jackson, Loehle and Vukcevic were all extremely lucky, all wrong or most likely the three sets of data they collected (geomagnetic, temperature & tectonics) do represent nature, which you are so eager to refute.
Your assessment that all those correlations are ‘spurious’ is without a doubt the spurious one.
Shawnhet says:
December 22, 2012 at 8:49 am
all the relevant papers were supportive of such an amplification
I would rather put it this way: since the solar changes are so small, supporters of the notion that the Sun is the major driver need to invoke unspecified or unknown ‘amplification’ mechanisms. This does not mean that any such mechanisms actually are operating as it has not been established that the Sun is a major driver.
On Bond: as he correctly relalizes that TSI won’t do it, he needs an ‘additional’ mechanism. This is not an ‘amplification’ of the TSI influence.
thisisnotgoodtogo says:
December 22, 2012 at 8:50 am
Fixed something for LS
This is still not good to go.
vukcevic says:
December 22, 2012 at 9:14 am
There is no solar flux, CO2, C14, 10Be or whatever was measured in 1832 either, but you confidently telling us what they are.
The solar flux can be followed back to 1722, 14C and 10Be can be measured some 10,000 years back, sunspots back to 1610.
Carter:
Concerning your propaganda videos, did you ever hear the expression “boob tube”?
***
Gail Combs says:
December 21, 2012 at 11:45 am
I find it very interesting that L.S. and other scientists are now ‘reworking’ the historic sunspot numbers…..
***
Gail, are you really grouping Dr S w/some of the well-known revisionist “scientists” dealt with here? For shame…