Guest post by Bob Tisdale
This is the 3rd part of a series of posts that present myths and misunderstandings about the tropical Pacific processes that herald themselves during El Niño and La Niña events. In the posts, I’m simply reproducing chapters from my recently published ebook Who Turned on the Heat?
Many of these myths were created by proponents of manmade global warming who have no understanding of the coupled ocean-air processes that result in El Niño and La Niña events. Those persons look at an El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) index and wrongly assume the index represents all of the processes of ENSO—when, in reality, the index simply shows the impact of El Niño and La Niña events on the variable being measured for that index. ENSO indices (like NINO3.4 region sea surface temperature anomalies presented in the post) do not capture in recharge aspects of La Niña events that are evident in the ocean heat content data for the tropical Pacific and they do not capture the impacts of the discharge and redistribution processes of major El Niño events that are plainly visible in the sea surface temperature anomalies of the Atlantic-Indian-West Pacific Oceans(90S-90N, 80W-180).
For almost 4 years, my presentations about the long-term effects of El Niño and La Niña events indicate the global oceans over the past 30+ years have warmed naturally. The long-term impacts of El Niño and La Niña are blatantly obvious. Proponents of anthropogenic global warming apparently have difficulty comprehending that, so they use misinformation to try to contradict what’s plainly visible. Many of the myths they’ve created are failed attempts to neutralize strong El Niño and La Niña events—to redirect the observable causes of the warming over the past 3 decades from natural factors to manmade greenhouse gases.
The following discussion is from Chapter 7.1 Myth – ENSO Has No Trend and Cannot Contribute to Long-Term Warming. It begins with a reference to Section 5 of Who Turned on the Heat? The chapter titles of that section give a general description of the topics discussed. See the table of contents in the book preview here. Most of those discussions have been presented in numerous posts over the past 4 years at my blog and in cross posts at WattsUpWithThat.
******
We’ve discussed and illustrated in Section 5 of this book how ENSO has been responsible for the warming of global sea surface temperatures over the past 30 years. In fact, the intent of this book was to provide the reader with a strong enough background in ENSO to understand why this myth [ENSO Has No Trend and Cannot Contribute to Long-Term Warming] is wrong. Regardless, let’s examine this myth a little closer and see what else we can learn from it.
The “ENSO has No Trend” part of this myth depends on the dataset. That is, since 1900, some sea surface temperature-based ENSO indices show long-term trends, warming and cooling; another is flat. Let’s look at NINO3.4 sea surface temperature anomalies using a number of different datasets. We’ll start with ERSST.v3b and Kaplan, both from NOAA, and HADISST from the Hadley Centre. Refer to Figure 7-1. NINO3.4 sea surface temperature anomalies for the ERSST.v3b, Kaplan, and HADISST datasets are available through the KNMI Climate Explorer Monthly Climate Indices webpage. The ERSST.v3b version of NINO3.4 sea surface temperatures has a significant warming trend, while the Kaplan version of NINO3.4 data shows significant cooling. The HADISST-based NINO3.4 data since 1900 has a slightly negative trend, but it’s basically flat.
Figure 7-2 presents the average of the ERSST.v3b, HADISST and Kaplan versions of NINO3.4 sea surface temperature anomalies. The linear trend of 0.003 deg C per decade is basically flat.
HADSST2 and HADSST3 are also available at the Climate Explorer, but their data for the NINO3.4 region are so sparse at times that there are large gaps, with many missing months. Fortunately, a recent climate paper presented an ENSO index based on HADSST2 sea surface temperature anomalies. The paper was Thompson et al (2009) Identifying signatures of natural climate variability in time series of global-mean surface temperature: Methodology and Insights. We’ll discuss this paper again in another myth. Thompson et al (2009) were kind enough to provide data along with their paper. The instructions for use and links to the data are here. Thompson et al (2009) used the sea surface temperature anomalies for Cold Tongue Index region instead of the more commonly used NINO3.4 region. There are very slight differences between the two datasets. Thompson et al also scaled the data so that they could subtract it from global surface temperatures. We’ll standardize it so the dataset doesn’t look so odd, Figure 7-3. The trend clearly shows cooling. That’s even steeper than the cooling trend in the Kaplan NINO3.4 data.
In summary, sea surface temperature anomaly-based ENSO indices do have trends. The trend depends on the dataset. Most show a cooling trend over the 20th century and on into current times.
That’s not the primary fault with that myth. What defies logic with that fairytale is the idea that a variable source of heat with a flat long-term linear trend cannot raise or lower temperatures over periods of time.
For example, let’s say a hospital recently built a new multistory wing. The engineering department has received complaints about the temperature in a storeroom. Rarely does anyone enter the storeroom, but when they do, the temperature there can be very cool or very warm, or sometimes it’s just right. The storeroom is in the center of the building. It’s surrounded by occupied spaces and there are occupied floors above and below it. The temperatures in all of the spaces surrounding the storeroom are controlled by thermostats to maintain temperatures at 21 deg C (70 deg F). The lights in the storeroom are controlled by an occupancy sensor and there is no equipment in that space causing a heat load. Basically, the storeroom has no heat gains or losses when it’s unoccupied. To save on construction costs, hospital administrators elected not to install a thermostat in the storeroom with a separate supply of heating and cooling. The heating and air conditioning system does, however, serve the storeroom, providing a minimum amount of conditioned air for ventilation. The air conditioned or heated supply air comes from a duct that’s controlled by a thermostat in an adjacent office space, which is unfortunately an exterior zone, with heat losses and heat gains and varying occupancy. The head of the engineering department sends a new hire to the storeroom with a couple of temperature sensors and digital recorder.
After a period of time, the new hire stops by the boiler room to consult with the crusty old boiler room foreman. The new hire explains his findings to foreman. The temperature of the storeroom does vary, and he provides a graph that shows the temperature there initially warmed, then cooled slightly, and then warmed again. See Figure 7-4.
The new hire is baffled, though. The graph of the temperature of the air being supplied to the space, Figure 7-5, shows lots of variability. If he compares the supply air and space temperature, the new hire can see that the temperature of the air being supplied to the space has a strong short-term effect on space temperature. When there’s a short-term supply of warm air, the space temperature warms and, conversely, when there’s a short-term supply of cool air, the space temperature cools. What baffles the new hire is that space temperatures obviously warmed over the long-term, but the supply air temperature shows no trend. In fact, it shows a slight cooling trend.
The boiler room foreman suggests the new hire determine the average temperatures of the supply air entering the space during the early and late warming periods and determine the average supply air temperature for the relatively flat temperature period between them. The new hire returns with a revised graph that shows the average supply air temperatures were in heating mode during the two warming periods and in cooling mode, just slightly, during the period between them. All of the variability had hidden the obvious from him when he looked at the data for the first time. The new hire states the supply air was an uncontrolled supply of variable heating and cooling, and it was causing the space temperatures to warm and cool. The foreman and the new hire go into a more detailed discussion to clarify the reasons for the warming and cooling before the new hire reports back to the head of engineering.
If you hadn’t noticed, I used scaled and ranged NINO3.4 sea surface temperature anomalies since 1900 to create the supply air temperature data in Figures 7.5 and 7.6, and the space temperature in Figure 7-4 bears a striking resemblance to global surface temperatures since 1900 as well. I’m sure some readers will think it was a poor example and that there are better examples I could have used in the discussion above, but let’s look at the bottom line.
Isn’t that all ENSO is? Isn’t ENSO simply a natural, uncontrolled, variable source of heat to the global oceans and atmosphere? Global Land Plus Sea surface temperatures warmed from 1917 to 1944 and warmed again from 1976 to present, and they cooled slightly from 1944 to 1976. Using period-average NINO3.4 sea surface temperatures, we can see that El Niño events dominated the global warming periods, and La Niña events dominated the period between them when global temperatures cooled.
We’ve discussed this in Chapter 5.8 Scientific Studies of the IPCC’s Climate Models Reveal How Poorly the Models Simulate ENSO Processes. Let’s repeat that discussion.
The strength of ENSO phases, along with how often they happen and how long they persist, determine how much heat is released by the tropical Pacific into the atmosphere and how much warm water is transported by ocean currents from the tropics to the poles. During a multidecadal period when El Niño events dominate (a period when El Niño events are stronger, when they occur more often and when they last longer than La Niña events), more heat than normal is released from the tropical Pacific and more warm water than normal is transported by ocean currents toward the poles—with that warm water releasing heat to the atmosphere along the way. As a result, global sea surface and land surface temperatures warm during multidecadal periods when El Niño events dominate. See Figure 7-7. Similarly, global temperatures cool during multidecadal periods when La Niña events are stronger, last longer and occur more often than El Niño events.
The myth “ENSO Has No Trend and Cannot Contribute to Long-Term Warming” is flawed in a number of ways.
THE REST OF THIS SERIES
The remainder of this series of posts will be taken from the following myths and failed arguments. They’re from Section 7 of my book Who Turned on the Heat? I may select them out of the order they’ve been presented here, and I’ll try to remember to include links to the other posts in these lists as the new posts are published.
ALREADY PUBLISHED
1. El Niño-Southern Oscillation Myth 1: El Niño and La Niña Events are Cyclical. Refer also to the cross post at WattsUpWithThat for comments.
2. El Niño-Southern Oscillation Myth 2: A New Myth – ENSO Balances Out to Zero over the Long Term. And please see the WattsUpWithThat cross post.
UPCOMING
Myth – The Effects of La Niña Events on Global Surface Temperatures Oppose those of El Niño Events
Failed Argument – El Niño Events Don’t Create Heat
Myth – El Niño Events Dominated the Recent Warming Period Because of Greenhouse Gases
Myth – ENSO Only Adds Noise to the Instrument Temperature Record and We Can Determine its Effects through Linear Regression Analysis, Then Remove Those Effects, Leaving the Anthropogenic Global Warming Signal
Myth – The Warm Water Available for El Niño Events Can Only be Explained by Anthropogenic Greenhouse Gas Forcing
Myth – The Frequency and Strength of El Niño and La Niña Events are Dictated by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation
And I’ll include a few of the failed arguments that have been presented in defense of anthropogenic warming of the global oceans.
Failed Argument – The East Indian-West Pacific and East Pacific Sea Surface Temperature Datasets are Inversely Related. That Is, There’s a Seesaw Effect. One Warms, the Other Cools. They Counteract One Another.
INTERESTED IN LEARNING MORE ABOUT EL NIÑO AND LA NIÑA AND THEIR LONG-TERM EFFECTS ON GLOBAL SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURES?
Why should you be interested? Sea surface temperature records indicate El Niño and La Niña events are responsible for the warming of global sea surface temperature anomalies over the past 30 years, not manmade greenhouse gases. I’ve searched sea surface temperature records for more than 4 years, and I can find no evidence of an anthropogenic greenhouse gas signal. That is, the warming of the global oceans has been caused by Mother Nature, not anthropogenic greenhouse gases.
I’ve recently published my e-book (pdf) about the phenomena called El Niño and La Niña. It’s titled Who Turned on the Heat? with the subtitle The Unsuspected Global Warming Culprit, El Niño Southern Oscillation. It is intended for persons (with or without technical backgrounds) interested in learning about El Niño and La Niña events and in understanding the natural causes of the warming of our global oceans for the past 30 years. Because land surface air temperatures simply exaggerate the natural warming of the global oceans over annual and multidecadal time periods, the vast majority of the warming taking place on land is natural as well. The book is the product of years of research of the satellite-era sea surface temperature data that’s available to the public via the internet. It presents how the data accounts for its warming—and there are no indications the warming was caused by manmade greenhouse gases. None at all.
Who Turned on the Heat?was introduced in the blog post Everything You Every Wanted to Know about El Niño and La Niña… …Well Just about Everything. The Updated Free Preview includes the Table of Contents; the Introduction; the beginning of Section 1, with the cartoon-like illustrations; the discussion About the Cover; and the Closing. The book was updated recently to correct a few typos.
Please buy a copy. (Credit/Debit Card through PayPal. You do NOT need to open a PayPal account. Simply scroll down past where they ask you to open one.). It’s only US$8.00.
VIDEOS
For those who’d like a more detailed preview of Who Turned on the Heat? see Part 1 and Part 2 of the video series The Natural Warming of the Global Oceans. Part 1 appeared in the 24-hour WattsUpWithThat TV (WUWT-TV) special in November 2012. You may also be interested in the video Dear President Obama: A Video Memo about Climate Change.







Matthew R Marler says: “It seems from this that you make the El Niño events a part of ENSO, rather than something distinct. Previously you wrote that they were something distinct that sometimes occurred during the peaks of the ENSO oscillation.”
I never wrote anything to that effect, as far as I know. You’ll need to quote me so that I can correct your misunderstanding.
Matthew R Marler says: “You don’t really mean that ENSO is a “source” of heat, do you?”
I thought I’ve been pretty clear about that. El Nino events release heat and La Nina events recharge it. The impacts of the 3-year La Nina events and the 1995/96 La Nina are clearly evident in the ocean heat content data for the tropical Pacific:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/figure-11-trop-pac-ohc.png
James at 48 says: “Harmonics, beat frequencies, constructive superposition, destructive superposition, etc – how can there not be long term trends as a result of this oscillation? Beyond that, we really don’t understand other separate processes which may modulate this oscillation explicitly.”
Do you have 55 minutes? I’ve explained it at a relatively basic level in the following video:
LazyTeenager says: “Probably. But that graph is a visual mess. Am I supposed to look at the area of the ENSO curve above the baseline with the area below the baseline or what?”
Thank you for admitting you didn’t know which graph was being discussed when you made the claim, “The graphs don’t show that. I have no idea where Bob gets this conclusion from.”
Let me help you read that graph. There are two datasets in Figure 7-7. NINO3.4 sea surface temperature anomalies (purple curve) and the GISS Land-Ocean Temperature Index (LOTI), which is color coded for different time periods:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/figure-7-72.png
The GISS LOTI data warmed from 1917 to 1944 (red portion) and from 1976 to 2011 (brown portion). The GISS LOTI data cooled from 1944 to 1976 (dirty green portion). There are color-coded trend lines that correspond to those periods. The trend values above those periods are also color coded to correspond with the warming and cooling periods so that you can have an idea of the rates of warming and cooling.
The horizontal lines (two shades of blue and burnt orange) show the average NINO3.4 sea surface temperature anomalies during the GISS LOTI warming and cooling periods. The two blue lines are above zero indicating the El Niño events dominated the two warming periods. And the burnt orange line is slightly below zero indicating La Niña events dominated the period. And that brings me back to what I wrote in the post:
Using period-average NINO3.4 sea surface temperatures, we can see that El Niño events dominated the global warming periods, and La Niña events dominated the period between them when global temperatures cooled.
Enjoy your holidays, LazyTeenager.
Bob Tisdale (December 21, 2012 at 12:21 am) wrote:
“[…] ocean heat content for the tropical Pacific warmed only during the three 3-year La Nina events of 1954-57, 1973-76, and 1998-2001 and during the La Nina event of 1995/96. See here:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/figure-11-trop-pac-ohc.png
And here:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/trop-pac-ohc-trends-between-3-yr-ln-w-o-1995-96-ln2.png ”
Bob Tisdale (December 21, 2012 at 3:15 pm) wrote:
“El Nino events release heat and La Nina events recharge it. The impacts of the 3-year La Nina events and the 1995/96 La Nina are clearly evident in the ocean heat content data for the tropical Pacific:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/figure-11-trop-pac-ohc.png “
The three 3-year La Ninas coincide with:
1. HARD phase reversals in ENSO-timescale Indian Ocean Dipole patterns.
2. Tsonis-framework synchronizations.
3. solar Hale cycle.
Caution: The reversal ~1998 differs qualitatively:
Chao, B.F. (2006). Earth’s oblateness and its temporal variations. Comptes Rendus Geoscience 338, 1123-1129. doi:10.1016/j.crte.2006.09.014.
http://www.earth.sinica.edu.tw/~bfchao/publication/eng/2006-Earth%E2%80%99s%20oblateness%20and%20its%20temporal%20variations.pdf
Bob Tisdale says:
December 21, 2012 at 2:59 pm
>> The problem: you can’t remove ENSO from global surface temperatures by scaling and lagging</b< an ENSO index and subtracting it from global surface temperatures. You’re not accounting for the leftover warm water that remains after major El Nino events.<<
Volker Doormann says: “There is no problem in general. I have shown by remove the ENSO function from the global hadcrut4 function by scaling without lagging and subtracting it from the global hadcrut4 data
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/had4_minus_oni.gif
There is a resulting function (red), which is very near to the solar tide function of the relevant planets (blue).
Then I have shown, that the ENSO function has a strong geometric nature containing the Chandler wobble period of 432/365.242 days or 1.18277 years, the QBO period of precise two times the Chandler wobble period = 2.3655 years, and the two main ENSO periods of three times the Chandler wobble period of 3.5483 years and four times the Chandler wobble period of 4.7311 years. Moreover, the analyse of the ENSO spectrum since 1950 shows many more harmonic modes of the Chandler wobble basis mode. http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/oni_fft1.gif
This means that you can remove ENSO in general from global surface temperatures, because the geometric structure including the phases in time can be described.
In detail you can find the time constants of the impedances which are shown by the frequencies of the main ENSO oscillation periods. From this it is a simple step to calculate the lags.”
You appear to have thought “lagging” was critical to your argument. It’s not.
We do discuss the possibility to remove the ENSO function from the global temperature function.
You’re still assuming global surface temperatures respond linearly to El Nino and La Nina events. They do not. In other words, as I wrote before, You’re not accounting for the leftover warm water that remains after major El Nino events.
The basic point in this discussion is that impedances cannot create heat. The next point is that an oscillating system has one or more frequencies related to a fixed geometry. The principle of an oscillator is that the oscillations decrease in the amplitude depending on the damping coefficient γ . Each oscillator, which is swinging more or minor continuously, must have a driving force, and this is in the case of ENSO a heat force. The heat loads the impedance, which is quantity of heat Q = m * c * delta T. m is the mass of water, c is the specific heat capacity of water in [W sec per K] and delta T is the amount of Kelvin of the temperature elevation. Water has a very high specific heat capacity of 4.2 [W sec per g and Kelvin]. The nature of a capacity is that the height of the load depends on the time constant tau. That means that it takes a defined time length to reach an elevated temperature in the water if the time is given by the known oscillation frequency or frequencies phases of ENSO.
The next point is that the logic about the heat current driven by the sun through the Earth and to the cold space marks global temperatures in Kelvin. These temperatures are determined by the two different geometries I wrote about above in the thread. The conclusion is that the global temperature is the final result of the two superimposed functions of the ENSO oscillator geometry and the solar heat function which have – as shown – a geometry relation to the planets solar tide functions.
There remains nothing. The heat current IS (true).
V.
I spent some time staring at this page: http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/enso/mei/
Summarizing:
1. Since the 98 super el niño there has not been much el niño or la Nina activity. This corresponds to the CRU temperature plateau you guys are keen on.
2. Centered round the 1970s there was a period of dominant la Nina activity. This corresponds to the cold period of the same era.
3. In the intervening period there was a period of strong el niño activity. This corresponds to the increase in temps over the same period.
Is this what Bob is referring to?
I see two potential problems
1. The method used to calculate the index might have temperature trends leaking into and biassing the index results. The relationship would then be spurious .
2. The variations in the long term temperature trend likely originate from variability in ocean circulation. Such changes in ocean circulation are may also to affect ENSO.
So there is an attribution problem. Correlation is not causation.
@Volker Doormann (December 22, 2012 at 3:00 am)
Whether or not heat participates in a *global* *surface* average depends on whether it is smeared out over the surface from a deep equatorial warm pool. Suggestion: Consider the possibility that you don’t have to be wrong for Bob to be right.
Volker Doormann says: “This means that you can remove ENSO in general from global surface temperatures, because the geometric structure including the phases in time can be described.”
You can attempt (and fail) to justify the removal of ENSO from global surface temperatures any number of ways. The bottom line is, you’re only removing the ENSO signal from the portions of the global oceans where El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperatures, like the East Pacific Ocean:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/east-pac-vs-scaled-nino3-4-ssta.png
But the East Pacific only represents about 33% of the surface area of the global oceans. (It also hasn’t warmed in 31 years.) The sea surface temperatures for the Rest of the World do not respond linearly to all El Nino and La Nina events. This subset warmed in response to the 1986/87/88 El Nino but did not cool proportionally during the 1988/89 La Nina. It also warmed during the 1997/98 El Nino but did not cool proportionally during the 1998-01 La Nina. This is blatantly obvious in the following graph:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/figure-8-row-a.png
Bob Tisdale says:
December 22, 2012 at 4:51 am
Volker Doormann says: “This means that you can remove ENSO in general from global surface temperatures, because the geometric structure including the phases in time can be described.”
You can attempt (and fail) to justify the removal of ENSO from global surface temperatures any number of ways.
The bottom line is, you’re only removing the ENSO signal from the portions of the global oceans where El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperatures
Circulus in demonstrando “This fallacy occurs if you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach. “
I think it is senseless to explain again and again the physical nature of a physical heat current.
i.) The El Nino and La Nina events are the result of the complex heat current, complex because of thermal -> impedances.
ii.) ENSO is a definition of the result of the complex heat current, complex because of thermal impedances on a very defined location.
iii.) A definition creates neither a heat nor have it an impact on whatsoever.
iv. A definition has no impact on (surface) temperatures.
v. A definition has neither a linear impact on surface temperatures nor a nonlinear impact on surface temperature. Your argument that El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperature is a Circulus in demonstrando fallacy, because you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach. You cannot conclude an impact on the temperature out of a definition of that what you take for the impact.
However. EOD because of no single agree points and ignored arguments.
V.
Bob Tisdale: I thought I’ve been pretty clear about that.
Actually, you have, most of the time. Earlier in this thread, and elsewhere, you have noted how the ENSO modulates the amount of sun that arrives on the Earth surface.
But in this quote you might be a little sloppy: Isn’t ENSO simply a natural, uncontrolled, variable source of heat to the global oceans and atmosphere?
Bob Tisdale: Matthew R Marler says: “It seems from this that you make the El Niño events a part of ENSO, rather than something distinct. Previously you wrote that they were something distinct that sometimes occurred during the peaks of the ENSO oscillation.”
I never wrote anything to that effect, as far as I know. You’ll need to quote me so that I can correct your misunderstanding.
On a previous thread you quoted someone else. If you really mean that the El Niño events arise out of the ENSO, I am content to take that as your assertion. It was in the earlier thread that I made the analogy between El Niño events and “catastrophes” in dynamical systems theory, where a “catastrophe” is a dramatic difference in the appearance and measurements of a system induced by a small change in inputs.
Bob Tisdale, here is what you wrote when you addressed “Myth 1:
CHAPTER 2.1 DO THE WORDS “OSCILLATION” AND “CYCLE” IN THE NAMES “EL NIÑO-SOUTHERN OSCILLATION AND “ENSO CYCLE” CAUSE MISUNDERSTANDINGS?
The words oscillation and cycle are used to describe the processes of El Niño and La Niña events as a single phenomenon. The commonly used term ENSO stands for El Niño-Southern Oscillation. The seemingly redundant term ENSO Cycle (El Niño-Southern Oscillation Cycle) is also used often. Many persons assume because cycle and oscillation are used to describe El Niño and La Niña that the two states oppose and offset one another, that a La Niña will counteract an El Niño. Bad assumptions. They definitely do not work that way.
The most obvious difference between the two states, which we discuss in Sections 1 and 3, is, El Niño events randomly release vast amounts of warm water from below the surface of the west Pacific Warm Pool and spread it across the central and eastern equatorial Pacific, but the reverse does not occur during La Niña events.
Are El Niño and La Niña events cyclical or oscillatory? Some parts are, and some parts aren’t. We’ll discuss this further in Chapter 4.17 ENSO – A Cycle or Series of Events?
Notice the words “randomly release”: but in today’s thread you make clear that the release is not “random”, but occurs during the peak of the ENSO. Also, in today’s thread you elucidate that El Niño and La Niña events are opposite, though not “equal and opposite”.
Your Myth 1 post and Myth 3 post seem to be working in opposition to each other, though I guess that mostly results from the change in emphasis. The Myth 2 post is unaffected because it merely shows that El Niño and La Niña events do not necessarily balance out over particular epochs of time.
Matthew R Marler says: “Notice the words “randomly release…’”
El Ninos are randomly occurring events. And El Nino events release vast amounts of warm water from below the in the from below the surface of the west Pacific Warm Pool.
Matthew R Marler continued: “…but in today’s thread you make clear that the release is not ‘random’, but occurs during the peak of the ENSO.”
Where does this phrase “peak of ENSO” come from, Matthew? I do not recall ever using it. I have written on numerous occasions that ENSO events normally peak in December, because El Nino and La Nina events are typically tied to the seasonal cycle, but I do not believe I have ever written that the release of heat only occurs at the peak of an El Nino event. It occurs throughout the El Nino event.
I believe when we clear up that then the rest of your questions may evaporate.
Volker Doormann says: “Your argument that El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperature is a Circulus in demonstrando fallacy, because you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach.”
You have once again failed to grasp my argument. My argument was that El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperatures for a small portion of the surface of the planet, and that they DO NOT have linear effects on surface temperatures for the remainder of the planet. In order for you, Volker, to be able to subtract ENSO from the surface temperature record, the entire globe must respond linearly to El Nino and La Nina events, and it does not.
Bob Tisdale says:
December 22, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Volker Doormann says: “Your argument that El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperature is a Circulus in demonstrando fallacy, because you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach.”
You have once again failed to grasp my argument. My argument was that El Nino and La Nina events have linear impacts on surface temperatures for a small portion of the surface of the planet, and that they DO NOT have linear effects on surface temperatures for the remainder of the planet. In order for you, Volker, to be able to subtract ENSO from the surface temperature record, the entire globe must respond linearly to El Nino and La Nina events, and it does not.
Its your thread and I do appreciate your work. I do not believe in repetition. I have given up arguing if there is not to see a common basis in the philosophic rules of a discussion, and this especially if I am a guest in a blog or thread, because of the respect I do appreciate more then logic.
I think it is interesting to compare some well known time functions, because it can help to see geometric relations in nature. First there is the ENSO 3.4 function (orange thin) which can be compared with the global temperatures measured by RSS (black thick) and UAH 5.5 (orange thick). I can see first a correlation and a nonlinear time shift between the functions in that way, that the global temperature function comes later in time than the ENSO 3.4. This time shift can be explained with different phases between a special location and the global phase of the temperature.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/enso_vs_xyz.gif
It is said that a main part of the sea level anomaly is connected to the SST because of the thermal property of water. There is a sea level oscillation (blue thick) superimposed to the seasonal anomalies and the linear trend of 3.2 mm per year, and it shows not only a main time period of 6.30 periods per year, but also the temperature functions of RSS resp. UAH 5.5. Remarkable is that there is no time shift between the oscillations layered over the global temperature. But more remarkable is that the oscillation main period of 6.30 periods per year is phase coherent to a heliocentric tide function (blue thin). Remarkable is also that some of the amplitude extreme of the solar tide function has no time shift to the minor high frequency spikes in the ENSO 3.4 function.
Depending on the question what to analyse the nature of the global climate processes it can be helpful to experiment with mathematical subtraction of functions, but this must have a strong reason. You are right, if you argue that because of the phase shift of the global temperature and the ENSO3.4 local function it is not adequate simple to subtract both functions, but that was not the strong point. The point was and is to show that in times of low ENSO3.4 values the global temperature functions like hadcrut4 do show a correlation with relevant solar tide functions. And for this purpose it is not relevant that there is a time shift of weeks or months.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/had4_minus_oni.gif
Some people may be pleased with the statement: ‘global oceans over the past 30+ years have warmed naturally.’ I’m not. My point of view is to know what mechanism is behind the climate/global temperature frequencies which can be related to the geometry of the Earth (ENSO) and to the geometries of the solar system (and not to feed the ‘CO2 mob’ or the ‘believer [or unbeliever] in the power of ENSO’).
In the end it maybe is to understand that the sum of eleven relevant solar tide functions fits better with measured global temperatures when the oscillation amplitude of the terrestrial geometry function ENSO3.4 is low.
Earth geometry and solar system geometries are different pairs of boots in ONE nature.
However, as long the solar functions on climate here are not the theme, I thank you for your replies.
V.
LazyTeenager says:
December 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm
Bob says
Using period-average NINO3.4 sea surface temperatures, we can see that El Niño events dominated the global warming periods, and La Niña events dominated the period between them when global temperatures cooled.
————-
The graphs don’t show that. I have no idea where Bob gets this conclusion from. Looking at the ENSO curves I reckon if you integrated them you would get close to zero.
The linear trend of the NINO 3.4 region is – 0.11 Centigrade for the last 50 years.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/down_10.gif
Bob: “In fact, the intent of this book was to provide the reader with a strong enough background in ENSO to understand why this myth [ENSO Has No Trend and Cannot Contribute to Long-Term Warming] is wrong. Regardless, let’s examine this myth a little closer and see what else we can learn from it.”
V.
Bob Tisdale: but I do not believe I have ever written that the release of heat only occurs at the peak of an El Nino event. It occurs throughout the El Nino event.
I didn’t say you did.
Figure 1 of your Myth 1 post shows El Nino events occurring only during the relative maxima of the nino3.4 surface temperature anomalies, though not at every relative maximum. Likewise, that figure shows the La Nina events occurring only at the nino3.4 relative minima, though not at every relative minimum.
What you have presented is that: El Nino and La Nina arise naturally out of the ENSO oscillation (sorry for the redundancy), with El Ninos at some of the relative maxima, and La Ninas at some of the relative minima. ENSO is a complex oscillation, and a single series like the nino3.4 does not describe it completely (as you have documented), which is why the multivariate ENSO index was created. The components of the index are not linearly related to each other, so a single index will probably never be adequate — something that your presentations document well.
Volker Doormann says:
December 23, 2012 at 9:30 am
LazyTeenager says:
December 20, 2012 at 10:34 pm
Bob says
Using period-average NINO3.4 sea surface temperatures, we can see that El Niño events dominated the global warming periods, and La Niña events dominated the period between them when global temperatures cooled.
————-
The graphs don’t show that. I have no idea where Bob gets this conclusion from. Looking at the ENSO curves I reckon if you integrated them you would get close to zero.
The linear trend of the NINO 3.4 region is – 0.11 Centigrade for the last 50 years.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/down_10.gif
REPLY
The NINO 3.4 region shows an increase especially between the 1980’s and 1990’s. The 121 month mean shows how this trend behaves through the data set.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/nino341970.png/
The period where warming occurs during more El Nino’s and cooling during more La NInas is so obvious, can’t believe some people are questioning it.
The MEI clearly shows periods of more stronger El Nino’s during warmer periods and more stronger La Ninas during cooler periods.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/enso/mei.ext/ext.ts.jpg
This has been predicted years ago to cycle back again into another period of frequent stronger La NInas and so far this has been happening at least with the increased frequency since the 2000’s.
Mods,
Can you please replace my first link on my reply post at 12.42 pm with this one.
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/963/nino34.png
Please then delete this instruction post.
Thanks.
Matt G says:
December 23, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Volker Doormann says:
December 23, 2012 at 9:30 am
The linar trend of the NINO 3.4 region is – 0.11 Centigrade for the last 50 years.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/down_10.gif
REPLY
The NINO 3.4 region shows an increase especially between the 1980′s and 1990′s.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/down_11.gif
OK. It’s -0.01 °Cel per year.
V.
Volker Doormann says:
December 23, 2012 at 1:54 pm
NO, that’s not what I meant and I think you know it. The 1980’s to 1990’s represents the peak period where it had increased from decades before.
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6549/nino341970.png
Why are using v2?
One value says very little about how the overall period behaves, I have shown you the trend for every single month representing a 121 month period. There is a very noticeable change between the decades from the early 20th century.
With one value it easy to show a zero trend with strong warming for 100 years and strong cooling period for 100 years. Overall the 200 years trend is zero, but it hides information that one value doesn’t give and that that is your intent.
Matthew R Marler says: “Figure 1 of your Myth 1 post shows El Nino events occurring only during the relative maxima of the nino3.4 surface temperature anomalies, though not at every relative maximum.”
It does? Here’s Figure 1 from Myth 1:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/el-nino-southern-oscillation-myth-1-el-nino-and-la-nina-events-are-cyclical/figure-1-47/
Please advise how you deduced that.
Volker Doormann says: “I have given up arguing if there is not to see a common basis in the philosophic rules of a discussion…”
Agreed. There’s no reason to continue that argument.
Volker Doormann says: “The linear trend of the NINO 3.4 region is – 0.11 Centigrade for the last 50 years.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/down_10.gif”
The ONI data you’ve plotted is NOT a “Three month running mean of NOAA ERSST.v2 SST anomalies in the NINO3.4 region (5S-5N, 120-170W) based on the 1971-2000 base years” as you note on your graph. You provided this link to the data:
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/data/correlation/oni.data
Problem 1: NOAA stopped using ERSST.v2 for its ONI index a few years ago. They now use ERSST.v3b.
Problem 2: NOAA stopped using 1971-2000 as the base years for anomalies earlier this year. They use (freakish) shifting base years now, described here:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ensostuff/ensoyears.shtml
And further described here:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ensostuff/ONI_change.shtml
And I critiqued their changes to ONI here:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/comments-on-noaas-recent-changes-to-the-oceanic-nino-index-oni/
Matt G: See above reply to Volker Doormann regarding ONI.
Bob Tisdale says:
December 24, 2012 at 12:35 am
Volker Doormann says: “The linear trend of the NINO 3.4 region is – 0.11 Centigrade for the last 50 years.
http://www.volker-doormann.org/images/down_10.gif
The ONI data you’ve plotted is NOT a “Three month running mean of NOAA ERSST.v2 SST anomalies in the NINO3.4 region (5S-5N, 120-170W) based on the 1971-2000 base years” as you note on your graph.
The data I have used in my graph are taken from the web site
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/data/correlation/oni.data
You gave a data link to this URL
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ensostuff/ensoyears.shtml
The mean value of both 754 data points is +0.0101 Centigrade, have minimum of -2 Centigrade, a maximum of 2.4 Centigrade.
This result tells me that the two data tables are identical. Moreover the mean value of +0.0101 Centigrade @ur momisugly a standard deviation of 0.809 tells me that there is no significant offset in the 754 data points, which means to me that ENSO has no (significant) trend and cannot contribute to long-term warming.
Bob: “In fact, the intent of this book was to provide the reader with a strong enough background in ENSO to understand why this myth [ENSO Has No Trend and Cannot Contribute to Long-Term Warming] is wrong. Regardless, let’s examine this myth a little closer and see what else we can learn from it.”
V.
Matt G says:
December 23, 2012 at 2:53 pm
One value says very little about how the overall period behaves, I have shown you the trend for every single month representing a 121 month period. There is a very noticeable change between the decades from the early 20th century. With one value it easy to show a zero trend with strong warming for 100 years and strong cooling period for 100 years. Overall the 200 years trend is zero, but it hides information that one value doesn’t give and that that is your intent.
I have given my basic statements above.
I can add as a comment, that each try to suggest that an impedance – here an (oscillating) tank of water – can produce more heat than the heat, which is loaded into the impedance, is senseless .
V.