Frank Lansner on Foster and Rahmstorf 2011

This is a repost from Lansner’s website, since Tamino aka Grant Foster won’t allow it to be discussed on his own website, I thought I’d give a forum for discussion here. – Anthony

The real temperature trend given by Foster and Rahmstorf 2011?
Posted by Frank Lansner (frank) on 17th December, 2011

(whoops, I’m not allowed to link to this article at Taminos site… I’ve never written on Taminos site, but he seems to know not to let me write – Frank)

Fig1. Foster and Rahmstorf recently released a writing on ”The real global warming signal”.

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-real-global-warming-signal/ The point from F&R is, I believe, debating to counter the “sceptic” argument that temperatures has stagnated during the last decade or more. Since this is an essential issue in the climate debate I decided to investigate if F&R did a sensible calculation using relevant parameters.

Hadcrut global temperatures do have a rather flat trend these days:

Fig2. It is possible to go back to 1 may 1997 and still see flat trend for Hadcrut temperature data, so this data set will be subject for this writing:

Can F&R´s arguments and calculations actually induce a significant warm trend even to Hadcrut 1998-2011?

F&R use three parameters for their corrections, ENSO, AOD (volcanic atmospheric dimming) and TSI (Total Solar Irradiation).

“Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.

More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.

Fig3. FF&R has chosen MEI to represent EL Nino and La Nina impacts on global temperatures. MEI is the “raw” Nina3,4 SST that directly represents the EL Nino and La Nina, but in the MEI index, also SOI is implemented. To chose the most suited parameter I have compared NOAA´s ONI which is only Nina3.4 index and MEI to temperature graphs to evaluate which to prefer.

Both Hadcrut and RSS has a slightly better match with the pure Nina 3,4 ONI index which will therefore be used in the following. (Both sets was moved 3mth to achieve best it with temperature variations).

Fig4.

After correcting for Nina3,4 index (El Nino + La Nina) there is still hardly any trend in Hadcrut data 1998-2011. (If MEI is chosen, this results in a slight warming trend of approx 0,07 K/decade for the corrected Hadcrut data 1998-2011).

Fig5. I then scaled to best fit for SATO volcano data set. For the years after 1998, there is not really any impact from volcanoes, and thus we can say:

There is no heat trend in Hadcrut data after 1998 even when corrected for EL Nino/La Nina and volcanoes.

However, this changes when inducing Solar activity, I chose Sun Spot Number, SSN, to represent the Solar activity:

Fig6.

To best estimate the scaling of SSN I detrended the Nino3,4 and volcano corrected Hadcrut data and scaled SSN to best fit. Unlike F&R, I get the variation of SSN to equal 0,2K, not 0,1 K as F&R shows.

Now see what happens:

Fig7.

F&R describes the Solar activity (“TSI” as they write…) to be of smallest importance in their calculations. However, it is only the Solar activity, SSN, that ends up making even the Hadcrut years after 1998 show a warm trend when corrected. On Fig7 I have plotted the yearly results by F&R for Hadcrut and they are nearly identical to my results.

So, a smaller warming from my using Nino 3,4 combined with the larger impact of Solar activity I find cancels out each other.

ISSUES

For now it has been evaluated what F&R has done, now lets consider issues:

1) F&R assume that temperature change from for exaple El Nino or period of raised Solar activity etc. will dissapear fully immidiately after such an event ends. F&R assumes that heat does not accumulate from one temperature event to the next.

2) Missing corrections for PDO

3) Missing corrections for human aerosols – (supposed to be important)

4) Missing corrections for AMO

5) F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

Issue 1: F&R assume that all effect from a shorter warming or cooling period is totally gone after the effect is gone.

Fundamentally, the F&R approach demands that all effects of the three parameters they use for corrections only have here-and-now effects.

Example:

Fig8.

In the above approaches, the Nino3,4 peaks are removed by assuming that all effects from for example a short intense heat effect can be removed by removing heat only when the heating effect occurs, but not removing any heat after the effect it self has ended.

Now, to examine this approach I compare 2 datasets. A) Hadcrut temperatures, “corrected” for Nina3,4 , volcanoes and SSN effects as shown in the above – detrended. B) The Nino3,4 index indicating El Ninos/La Ninas and thus the timing of adjustments. (We remember, that the Nino3,4 was moved 3 months to fit temperature data before adjusting):

Fig9.

After for example “removing” heat caused by El Ninas during the specific El Nino periods, you see heat peaks 1 – 2 years later in the “Nino3,4” corrected detrended temperature data.

That is: After red peaks you see black peaks..

This means that the approach of systematically only removing heat when heat effect is occurring is fundamentally wrong.

Wrong to what extent? Typically, the heat not removed by correcting for Nina3,4 shows 1-2 years later than the heat effect. Could this have impact on decadal temperature trends?

Maybe so: In most cases of El Nino peaks, first we have the Nino3,4 red peak, then 1-2 years after the remaining black peak in temperature data that then dives. But notice that normally the dives in remaining heat (black) normally occurs when dives in the red Nino3,4 index starts.

This suggests, that the remaining heat from an El Nino peak is not fast disappearing by itself, but rather, is removed when colder Nino3,4 conditions induces a cold effect.

In general, we are working with noisy volcano and SSN corrected data, so to any conclusion there will be some situations where the “normal” observations is not seen strongly.

Now, what happens is we focus on periods where the Nino3,4 index for longer periods than 2 years is more neutral – no major peaks?

Fig10.

Now, the detrended Hadcrut temperature “corrected” for Nina3,4, Volcanoes and SSN –  black graph – has been 2 years averaged:

The impact of El Ninos and La Ninas is still clearly visible in data supposed to be corrected for these impacts. Since this correction by F&R is their “most important” correction, and it fails, then we can conclude that F&R 2011 is fundamentally flawed and useless.

Reality is complex and F&R has mostly seen the tip of the iceberg, no more.

More: Notice the periods 1976-1981 and  2002-2007. In both cases, we a period of a few years with Nino3,4 index rather neutral. In these cases, the temperature level does not change radically.

In the 1976-81 period, the La Ninas up to 1977 leaves temperatures cold, and they stay cold for years while Nino3,4 remains rather neutral. After the 2002-3 El Nino, Nino3,4 index remains rather neutral, and temperatures simply stays warm.

Issue 2: Missing corrections for PDO

Quite related to the above issue of ignoring long term effects of temperature peaks, we see no mention of the PDO.

Fig11. Don Easterbrook suggests that a general warming occurs when PDO is warm, and a general cooling occurs when PDO is cold. (PDO = Pacific Decadal Oscillation). That is, even though PDO index remains constant but warm, the heat should accumulate over the years rather than be only short term dependent strictly related to the PDO index of a given year. This is in full compliance with the long term effects of temperature peaks shown under issue 1.

Don Easterbrook suggests 0,5K of heating 1979-2000 due the PDO long term heat effect.

I think the principle is correct, I cant know if the 0,5K is correct – it is obviously debated – but certainly, you need to consider the PDO long term effect on temperatures in connection with ANY attempt to correct temperature data. F&R fails to do so, although potentially, PDO heat is suggested to explain all heat trend after 1979.

I would like to analyse temperature data for PDO effect if possible.

Fig12. PDO data taken from http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/PDO.latest

To analyse PDO-effect we have to realise that PDO and Nino3,4 (not surprisingly) have a lot in common. This means, that I cant analyse PDO effects in a dataset “corrected” for Nino3,4 as it would to some degree also be “corrected” for PDO…

More, this strong resemblance between Nino3,4 and PDO has this consequence:

When Don Easterbrook says that PDO has long term effect, he’s also saying that Nino3,4 has long term effects – just as concluded in issue 1.

Fig13. Thus, I am working with PDO signal compared to Hadcrut temperatures corrected for volcanoes and SSN only. The general idea that heat can be accumulated from one period to the next (long term effects) is clearly supported in this compare. If PDO heat (like any heat!) can be expected to be accumulated, then we can se for each larger PDO-heat-peak temperatures on Earth rises to a steady higher level.

Fig14. Note: in the early 1960´ies, the correction of volcano Agung is highly questionably because different sources of data concerning the effect of Agung are not at all in agreement. Most likely I have over-adjusted for cooling effect of Agung. On the above graph from Mauna Loa it appears that hardly any adjustment should be done…

Scientists often claim that we HAVE to induce CO2 in models to explain the heat trend. Here we have heat trends corrected for volcanoes and SSN, now watch how much math it takes to explain temperature rise after 1980 using PDO:

Fig15. “Math” to explain temperature trend using PDO. Due to the uncertainty on data around 1960 (Agung + mismatch with RUTI world index/unadjusted GHCN) I have made a curve beginning before and after 1960. For each month I add a fraction of the PDO signal to the temperature of last month, that is, I assume that heat created last month “wont go away” by itself, but is regulated by impacts of present month. This approach is likely not perfect either but it shows how easy temperature trends can be explained if you accept PDO influence globally.

(In addition I made some other scenarios where temperatures would seek zero to some degree, and also where I used square root on PDO input which may work slightly better, square root to boost smaller changes near zero PDO).

Now, how can PDO all by itself impact a long steady heat on Earth?? Does heat come from deep ocean or??

Fig16. It goes without saying that SSN and PDO (and thus Nina3,4 as shown) are related.

Is it likely that PDO affects Sun Spot Numbers? No, so we can conclude that Solar activity drives temperatures PDO which again can explain temperature changes on Earth.

Suddenly this analysis has become more interesting than F&R-evaluation, but this graph also shows that F&R was wrong on yet another point: Notice on the graph that we work the temperatures “CORRECTED” for Solar activity… But AFTER each peak of SSN we see accumulation of heat on earth still there after “correcting” for solar activity. Thus, again, it is fundamentally wrong to assume no long term affects of temperature changes. This time, temperature effect can be seen in many years after the “corrected” Solar activity occurred.

Conclusion: PDO appears Solar driven and can easily explain temperature developments analysed.

Thus perhaps the most important factors to be corrected for – if you want to know about potential Co2 effects – was not corrected for by F&R 2011.

Issue 3: Missing corrections for human aerosols – that are supposed to be important

It is repeatedly claimed by the AGW side in the climate debate that human sulphates / aerosols should explain significant changes in temperatures on earth.

When you read F&R I cant stop wonder: Why don’t they speak about Human aerosols now?

http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/greenhouse/greenhouse_gas.html

Fig17. In basically all sources of sulphur emissions it appears that around 1980-90 these started to decline.

If truly these aerosols explains significant cooling, well, then a reduced cooling agent after 1980 should be accounted for when adjusting temperature data to find “the real” temperature signal.

F&R fails to do so.

Issue 4: Missing corrections for AMO

AMO appears to affect temperatures in the Arctic and also on large land areas of the NH.

Fig18. In fact, the temperatures of the AMO-affected Arctic is supposed to be an important parameter for global temperature trends, and thus correcting for AMO may be relevant.

The AMO appears to boost temperatures for years 2000-2010 , so any correction of temperatures using AMO would reduce temperature trend after 1980.

F&R do not mention AMO.

Issue 5: F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

F&R only shows impacts after 1979, possibly due to the limitations of satellite data.

Fig19. “Correcting” Hadcrut data for nino3,4 + volcanoes it turns out that the heat trend from 1950 is reduced around 0,16K or around 25%. Why not show this?

I chose 1950 as staring point because both Nina3,4 and SATO volcano index begins in 1950.

Conclusion

F&R appear seems to assume that temperature impacts on Earth only has impact while occurring, not after. If you heat up a glass of water, the heat wont go away instantly after removing the heat source, so to assume this for this Earth would need some documentation.

Only “correcting” for the instant fraction of a temperature impact and not impacts after ended impact gives a rather complex dataset with significant random appearing errors and thus, the resulting F&R “adjusted data” for temperatures appears useless. At least until the long term effect of temperature changes has been established in a robust manner.

Further, it seems that the PDO, Nin3,4 and Solar activities are related, and just by using the simplest mathematics (done to PDO) these can explain recent development in temperatures on Earth. The argument that “CO2 is needed to explain recent temperature trends” appears to be flat wrong.

Thus “correcting” for PDO/Nina3,4 long term effect might remove heat trend of temperature data all together.

Solar activity is shown to be an important driver PDO/Nino3,4 and thus climate.

Finally, can we then use temperature data without the above adjustment types?

Given the complexities involved with such adjustments, it is definitely better to accept the actual data than a datasets that appears to be fundamentally flawed.

Should one adjust just for Nino3,4 this lacks long time effects of Nina3,4 and more it does not remove flat trend from the recent decade of Hadcrut temperature data.

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Gail Combs
December 19, 2011 4:54 am

Roger Knights says:
December 18, 2011 at 3:17 am
crosspatch says:
December 17, 2011 at 9:30 pm
sheesh, you’re correct, I forgot October!
Facepalm.
Time slip? Missing time? (Cue in spooky music.)
_____________________
Time needed for banks to verify and transfer funds???

JackK
December 19, 2011 4:58 am

You’re still discussing “Climategate” here? After – at least – 5 different organisations, including the 2 houses of parliament in UK, the Congress in the US, and 2 scientific organizations found out that every single allegation of the “sceptics” was complete rubbish?
You must be pretty desperate.

Gail Combs
December 19, 2011 5:28 am

William Martin says:
December 18, 2011 at 3:23 am
I believe that the sun is the dominant determinant of our climate, followed by local factors, e.g. volcanism.
However tonight I am swayed by the ice age predictions of Robert W Felix, who seems to account quite well for current weather and climate phenomenae…..
Where are we more likely to live than die ? I’m thinking Australia.
____________________________
If you are worried look at a map/info for the last Ice Age.
Map for North America: http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/NAL2215.gif
Text: http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercNORTHAMERICA.html
However a “Little Ice Age” in which we have the upper range of the grain belt lowered esp. in Canada and Russia, two big grain producers, and a change to a drier climate. (Cold = Dry) (Warm = Wet) will impact food production and food prices.
That is what makes me so angry about all this dancing around wasting billions/trillions of MY tax dollars on this idiocy instead of advancing something usable like thorium Fission/FUSION technology that would make desalinization for irrigation economical in places like California.

California’s Manmade Drought
California has a new endangered species on its hands in the San Joaquin Valley—farmers. Thanks to environmental regulations… one of America’s premier agricultural regions is suffering in a drought made worse by federal regulations…. As a result, tens of billions of gallons of water from mountains east and north of Sacramento have been channelled away from farmers and into the ocean, leaving hundreds of thousands of acres of arable land fallow or scorched….
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574384731898375624.html

OH and this idiocy is also funded by MY tax dollar since WWF, Greenpeace and others get a large chunk of their dollars from government.
GRRRRrrr IF I want to make donations to an NGO it should NOT be at the point of a GUN!

December 19, 2011 6:10 am

Frank Lansner says: “I have no intension of demanding PDO considered from F&R if not relevant, but i hope that if I dont agree with you on this, you wont take it too bad :-)”
I won’t take it bad, but you would be illustrating an inability to accept what is presented by the data. And if that was the case, then your belief in the PDO would be unfounded based on the evidence.

Gail Combs
December 19, 2011 6:31 am

Kelvin Vaughan says:
December 18, 2011 at 3:50 am
Have most scientists been on mind bending drugs at university?
_______________________________________
If it is in the USA the answer may well be YES.
1. Most work is actually done by grad students and the prof sticks his name on their work.
2. Children given Ritalin to control hyperactivity could be permanently brain damaged, it was claimed yesterday. Research suggests the controversial ‘chemical cosh’ drug raises the risk of depression and anxiety in adulthood.Ritalin alters the brain’s chemical composition so that it has a lasting effect on mental health, US scientists believe. Because these changes take place while a child’s brain is growing, they could cause irreversible damage….
3. In 1996, 10 percent to 12 percent of all American schoolboys were taking the addictive Ritalin.
4. The 700% increase in psychostimulant use that occurred in the 1990s justifies concern about potential overdiagnosis and inappropriate treatment of child behavior problems… from the early to mid-1990s the rate of ADHD treatment (i.e., school-administered Ritalin) among white boys in Baltimore County elementary schools was over 15%….
5. As many as 20 percent of college students have used Ritalin or Adderall to study, write papers and take exams, according to recent surveys focused on individual campuses. A study released this month by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia found that the number of teenagers who admit to abusing prescription medications tripled from 1992 to 2003, while in the general population such abuse had doubled….
I know your question is tongue in cheek but the answer has some very real problems associated with it.
…in 1973, psychiatrists were giving amphetamines to volunteers in order to observe their reactions. The reactions frightened researchers, who noted that several of the subjects expressed “a desire to kill” or to do something “bad or destructive.”
RITALIN AND VIOLENCE

…. there are now over 5 million school kids in America on psychotropic drugs, most of which are prescribed and administered by the schools themselves. ….December 1996, there are four million kids on Ritalin alone, one of the most powerful of the drugs now being given routinely to children in American schools.
What is most disturbing, however, is the growing awareness that the increased violence among school children may have more to do with the drugs than with the guns they use to carry out their violence.
…Eric Harris, 18, who, with his friend Dylan Klebold, murdered his fellow students at Columbine, had been taking Luvox, one of the new antidepressant drugs approved in 1997 by the Food and Drug Administration for treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder, or OCD, among children under 18.
…. T. J. Solomon, 15, who shot and wounded six classmates at Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga., on May 20 was on Ritalin for depression.
Shawn Cooper, 15, who fired two shotgun rounds, narrowly missing students and teachers at his high school in Notus, Idaho, was also on Ritalin, for bipolar disorder.
Kip Kinkel, 15, was on Ritalin and Prozac. He murdered his parents and then went on to school where he fired on students in the cafeteria,…
Mitchell Johnson, the 13-year-old student at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., who mowed down several children and a teacher with his friend Andrew Golden, 11, was on some sort of medication since he was being treated by a psychiatrist…..
http://www.ritalindeath.com/education/school-violence.htm

School Shootings Linked to Psychotropic Drugs Such as Ritalin: http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2000-05-16-School-Shootings-Psychotropic-Drugs.htm
One parent of a teenage murderer [16-year-old son, Jared] and those who knew him reported major personality changes after taking Ritalin. (http://familyrightsassociation.com/bin/white_papers-articles/drugging_our_children/)

KR
December 19, 2011 6:58 am

JohnWho – Regarding F&R, you are essentially correct.
They actually regressed upon _four_ components – ENSO, volcanic activity, TSI, and the 12-month annual cycle since 1979 (30+ years) and for 5 different sets of temperature records (the entirety of the satellite records, by the way, which started in 1979) – a multiple regression identifying correlations. They ran the computations with a variety of different lags, looking for the best match of correlation and lag for the full set of components in each temperature record.
What was left afterwards was a linear ramp (best fit residuals indicate it’s linear), with greatly reduced variations, which they identify as the ‘global warming’ signal. Given the statistics of that remaining linear increase, it shows statistical significance for increase over periods as short as 6-7 years.

Bomber_the_Cat
December 19, 2011 7:10 am

JackK says:
December 19, 2011 at 4:58 am
“You’re still discussing “Climategate” here? After – at least – 5 different organisations, including the 2 houses of parliament in UK, the Congress in the US, and 2 scientific organizations found out that every single allegation of the “sceptics” was complete rubbish? ”
No Jack, people here are discussing Frank Lansner on Foster and Rahmstorf 2011.
Apart from that you are perfectly correct. investigatory panels in the UK have found no fault with the ‘climategate’ scientists.
In the UK, Muir Russell was commissioned by the University of East Anglia to inquire about the emails, but didn’t even ask Jones whether he deleted the emails. Muir Russell “explained” to the Parliamentary Committee that, if he had done so, he would have been asking Jones to admit misconduct.That a panel commissioned to inquire about misconduct should refuse to grasp the nettle of actually inquiring about misconduct is unfortunately all too typical of these sorry events
http://climateaudit.org/2011/09/02/nsf-on-jones-email-destruction-enterprise/
Then we had the ‘Science Appraisal Committee’ chaired by Lord Oxburgh, who also happened to be chairman of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association and the wind energy company Falck Renewables. Just before his appointment he went on record to say “..what we don’t want to see is in two years’ time the government simply becoming bored with climate change after we’ve invested a lot of our shareholders’ money”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/jun/15/energy.greenpolitics
The noble Lord Oxburgh found nothing wrong either, although he did admit to the Parliamentary Committee that he hadn’t looked at the ‘science’, nor the emails.
So you may conclude that the scientists were exonerated or, as I do, may think that these Inquiries were more corrupt than the science they were supposed to be investigating. It’s up to you.

Gail Combs
December 19, 2011 7:30 am

On the subject of Clouds
If anyone has missed this: Global Warming as a Natural Response to Cloud Changes Associated with the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) by Roy W. Spencer, Ph.D.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/research-articles/global-warming-as-a-natural-response/
A different way to get at “Cloud Data” Earthshine
href=”http://www.hindawi.com/journals/aa/2010/963650/”<The earthshine observations reveal a large decadal variability in the Earth's reflectance [7], which is yet not fully understood, but which is in line with other satellite and ground-based global radiation data… (Note the sunspot cycle is ~ 11 years so is close to “Decadal” over a shot time span)
Heat enters the “Earth Energy system” at the tropics: (I think we all agree with that)
Tropical cloud cover (1983 to 2011) vs Global surface temp (HadCRUT3) http://www.climate4you.com/images/HadCRUT3%20and%20TropicalCloudCoverISCCP.gif
And Leaves the “Earth Energy system” at the poles:
Cloud cover over Arctic 1980 to 2005 (increase) http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/climate-clouds.shtml
So it may not be the overall amount of cloud cover but a shift in the position of cloud cover, especially over the oceans.
This older document is interesting because it tells you how bad the older cloud data for the oceans really is.

Global Distribution of Total Cloud Cover and Cloud Type Amounts over the Ocean (1988)
http://nldr.library.ucar.edu/collections/technotes/asset-000-000-000-467.pdf
L. Trends
Total cloud cover reported by ships has apparently increased by about 0.7% from 1952 to 1981.
A small part of this increase is artificial, due to the change in our source of data after 1979, as explained above in Section 4b. The increase in total cloud cover is concentrated at low latitudes. Prior to 1952 the situation is more complicated. The data showed a general increase in cloud cover from 1930 to 1952, but there was a very steep rise during 1940-45, followed by extremely low values in 1946-50. This is true for both hemispheres. We cannot at present explain this behavior. It may be related to the fact that 1940-48 were the years with the smallest numbers of observations (Figure 7) and therefore the poorest geographical coverage.
The only cloud type that has decreased globally (in the thirty years 1952-81) is cumulus. The decline in Cu could be related to the increase in Cb. However, the decline in Cu occurs mostly in the first four years of our data, 1952-55, when St/Sc amount also increased rapidly (see microfiche plots), suggesting that perhaps some of the clouds which were formerly called CL = 1 (cumulus of small vertical extent) are now called Cl=4 (stratocumulus formed by the spreading out of cumulus)

lgl
December 19, 2011 7:39 am

Bob,
There is no mechanism through which the PDO can warm or cool global temperatures. The only reason people think it must play a role is the units it’s displayed in.
No, the reason is PDO~-NPI, which is a SLP index, and pressure differences certainly can warm or cool. In fact all the model you need is the integral of (PDO+0,5) http://virakkraft.com/PDOint-SST.png and then of course dT is very much like the PDO http://virakkraft.com/Hadcrut-deriv-PDO.png

matt v.
December 19, 2011 7:46 am

ma vucevic
Re AMO
You have done a lot of fine work investigating AMO and what drives it and what correlates with it including NAO,GMFz and ARCTIC TEMPERTAURES . Have you looked at the effect of various currents discharging into the North Atlantic at Labrador Sea and into the Sub polar Gyre.? Currents like the HUDSON CURRENT which discharges into the DAVIS Strait . I think the cooling starts here first but also the TRANSPOLAR CURRENT could have an effect?. ARCTIC temperatures seem to lead AMO and NAO and I think ARCTIC temperatures in turn are affected by these cold curents coming from the Arctic

December 19, 2011 8:31 am

Bob Tisdale : “There is no mechanism through which the PDO can warm or cool global temperatures” , you say…
That’s a bold statement!!!
Cold PDO comes with pattern with cold waters along a very long coast line, that is a huge land area can be affected by winds from colder waters. Land areas do not have the same buffer effect on temperatures as ocean has, and therefore when colder winds meet land a larger proportion of the earth potentially can be cooled down.
And there are more mechanisms indeed that makes things much more complicated than to come with such a black-white statement.
You could turn it around: What is the odds that one distribution of temperatures has EXACTLY the net effect on glbal temperatures as a very different distribution? Statistically this chance is ZERO, so the question is entirely :
HOW MUCH does a very different heat distribution affect Earths avg. temperature?
You start sounding as if PDO is “settled science” and there is 2500 scientists with your viewpoint etc…
I will check out more of your comments on PDO…
K.R. Frank

davidmhoffer
December 19, 2011 8:38 am

Bob Tisdale says:
December 19, 2011 at 12:32 am
davidmhoffer: Thanks for the link. You wrote, “I’d think one could get some better clues as to what drives what by correlating against sunspots rather than TSI…”
Back to the discussion at hand: since 1979, Sunspot Numbers and TSI are highly correlated.
http://i39.tinypic.com/15n9a8k.jpg
My point with Frank was that it would make little difference to the outcome of Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) if they had used Sunspot Numbers instead of TSI.>>>>
Understood. I wasn’t aware that SSN followed TSI that closely. Regardless, that being the case, then I see neither being all that valuable other than as broad indicators. If we are to build an understanding of how the climate is affected by variances in solar activity with any degree of precision, then reducing the solar flux to either a TSI number or an SSN makes little sense to me. The components of the TSI mut be broken down and measured as individual components based on their physical properties in respect to interaction with the earth atmospheric, land, and ocean systems.

December 19, 2011 9:45 am

Bob: On Ocean winds over land:
A new writing of mine including exactly the ocean winds from West over USA rocky mountains and the effect this has on temperature trends, is in the middle of peer-review process right now 😉 .
So by now I dare say that these changes in ocean temperature winds over land are not to be ignored.
You can see a preview if you like.
Bob writes:
“I’ve tried to scale the sunspot anomalies to what you’ve shown, and I’ve scaled the PDO by the same factor of 0.2 that you used:
http://i40.tinypic.com/s3euso.jpg
Visually, there is little relationship between the two datasets, and this is confirmed with a correlation analysis. “
Bob I think your card is so beautiful it should be on a Christmas card!
But honestly I think the relationship is VERY clear..!
I think I why you don’t see what I see:
>>You don’t expect that the heat from one Solar peak should accumulate to the next! <<
In stead look at it this way: For every STRONG Solar cycle, PDO rises to higher level.
You could not wish for at better and more visible relation ship.
The same appears in the fig 16 in my article above, as you notice, but I think its easier to see due to the strongly averaged thick grey curve that take away noise better:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/Fig16.jpg
Solar cycles with “juice” seems to bring about longer term rise in PDO and apparently this is accumulated in temperature.
And a Merry Christmas to you!

December 19, 2011 9:47 am

says:
December 18, 2011 at 8:26 pm
“That TSI varies with solar activity isn’t disputed. The thing is that TSI itself probably isn’t the cause of major changes in climate, at least not changes to the degree we have seen over the past 1000 years.”
Thankyou my hero, you said it better than me.
@Gail Combs:
“And Leaves the “Earth Energy system” at the poles:
Cloud cover over Arctic 1980 to 2005 (increase) http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/climate-clouds.shtml
So it may not be the overall amount of cloud cover but a shift in the position of cloud cover, especially over the oceans.

Interesting inputs, thanks!
T: You gave some links to you PDO writings, i will have a look.

December 19, 2011 10:26 am

Bob.heres “THE GRAPH” (a more simplified version of fig 16 above) that shows obvious relation between
SUNACTIVITY / PDO / accumulated heat in hadcrut temperatures :.
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/TheGraph.jpg
This should be on every magazine cover tomorrow…

Editor
December 19, 2011 11:38 am

Frank Lansner , in response to my statement, “There is no mechanism through which the PDO can warm or cool global temperatures”, you wrote, “That’s a bold statement!!!”
Only someone who does not understand the PDO would think it was a bold statement. But you have proven numerous times to everyone reading this thread that you have no understanding of what the PDO represents. Yet another example: In response to graph I provided you…
http://i40.tinypic.com/s3euso.jpg
..you wrote, “You don’t expect that the heat from one Solar peak should accumulate to the next!”
Frank, the PDO does not represent heat. The PDO does not represent temperature. Why can’t you understand that?
You wrote, “Cold PDO comes with pattern with cold waters along a very long coast line, that is a huge land area can be affected by winds from colder waters……..”
But the North Pacific and the PDO spatial pattern in the North Pacific have two sides, Frank. And Western and Central portion of the North Pacific (that opposes the eastern portion) is larger than the Eastern portion that runs along the west coast of North America. Yes, it is well known that variations in the land surface temperatures along West Coast of North America agree with the variations in Eastern North Pacific Sea Surface Temperatures, but it’s also just as well known that the variations in Eastern Asia land surface temperatures vary with Western North Pacific Sea Surface Temperatures, so your argument is incomplete (because you’re only looking at one aspect of the PDO) and is therefore faulty.
You wrote, “And there are more mechanisms indeed that makes things much more complicated than to come with such a black-white statement.”
Frank, here’s another black and white statement. The standardization of the PDO gives it the appearance of a major short-term oscillation, something comparable to ENSO. But the PDO is not comparable to ENSO. The standardization of the PDO is one of the reasons that someone who does not understand the PDO, like you, argues about it. To standardize the PDO, one divides the “raw” PDO data by its standard deviation. Using monthly HADISST data to reproduce the PDO, the standard deviation of the 1st Principal Component of detrended North Pacific SST anomalies, north of 20N, is 0.127 deg C. The reciprocal of 0.127 is 7.8. In other words, the “raw” PDO data is multiplied by a factor of 7.8 to standardize it. So the relative importance of the PDO is greatly exaggerated through standardization. And that’s why you think it’s important.
And you wrote in your most recent comment, “You gave some links to you PDO writings, i will have a look.”
Good-bye, Frank. I’ve spent too much time dealing with you on this thread.

December 19, 2011 11:50 am

Here same graph, a little better focus on PDO, and now the simple PDO-estimated temperature is shown, SSN just indicated:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/PDOSSN.jpg
This should make a difference one shold think…

December 19, 2011 11:52 am

Dr. Lansner
Thanks for the new graph, since the first one you referred to as a reply to my post, wasn’t very clear. However despite new clarity there is no visually observed correlation of any significance.
Here I show the same principle applied to the North Atlantic, North and Equatorial Pacific and found following:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AP.htm
Of course you or any climate or oceanographer scientist are free to dismiss it, until all data has been published, but that will happen in due course.

Editor
December 19, 2011 11:56 am

Frank Lansner says: Bob.heres “THE GRAPH” (a more simplified version of fig 16 above) that shows obvious relation between SUNACTIVITY / PDO / accumulated heat in hadcrut temperatures:.
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/TheGraph.jpg
Thanks for making it clearer. Your graph clearly illustrates that the PDO is not driven by Solar. Sunspots precede the PDO from 1950 to the early 1960s. Then the variations in the PDO come before the Sunspots from the early 1960s to the mid 1970s. And after 1980, they are about 180 degrees out of phase.
Good bye, Frank.

UK John
December 19, 2011 12:13 pm

If there is dangerous planet destroying climate warming going on I should have been able to observe this through my 60 years of life, without the aid of statistical acrobatics.
However the weather world out of the window appears much the same as it has always been.

December 19, 2011 12:49 pm

Bob Tisdal; “Good-bye, Frank. I’ve spent too much time dealing with you on this thread.”
Please remember this in the future, no one asked for your “Settled science” with no room for any dissenting voices. No one ask for your time nor your incredible arrogance.
Absolutely incredible.

NeedleFactory
December 19, 2011 1:53 pm

I am mystified by two charts in Foster & Rahmstorf: the “raw” data and the “adjusted” data (respectively, http://tinyurl.com/rawTamino and http://tinyurl.com/adjTamino). The “raw” data shows five widely spaced lines rising roughly in parallel; the “adjusted” data shows the lines all bunched up atop each other. (For example, in 1980 the difference between low and high values of the raw data is over 0.6 degree Centigrade; for the adjusted data the difference is less than 0.1 degree.) What kind of “adjustment” can do this?

KR
December 19, 2011 4:34 pm

NeedleFactory“The “raw” data shows five widely spaced lines rising roughly in parallel; the “adjusted” data shows the lines all bunched up atop each other. … What kind of “adjustment” can do this?”
They offset the five records in Figure 1 so that you could see the differences:
“Annual averages of the monthly data from all five sources are shown in figure 1. All have been set to the same baseline (the entire time span, January 1979–December 2010), then offset by 0.2 C for plotting.”

Ammonite
December 19, 2011 8:38 pm

Chris Carthew says:December 18, 2011 at 3:50 pm
I think that the idea behind the original paper is a useful one, and one that does deserve more attention, and more considered thought, and not simple dismissal.
Hi Chris. I am in agreement. If the F&R paper has merit (and on the face of it, stripping out short term climate influences on some basis seems an entirely reasonable approach), it provides a falsifiable mechanism against which to test the AGW hypothesis. The F&R methodology is documented and reproducible. It can be applied on an identical basis for data going forward. If AGW is correct, the F&R derived trends should continue (with minor arguments about slope). If temperature were to flatline or go down under F&R, AGW theory will have some explaining to do.
Fearless prediction: in ten years time temperatures will be ~0.16C higher in all tested data sets under the unchanged F&R method.

Editor
December 20, 2011 2:44 am

Ammonite, in response to Chris Carthew, you wrote, “Hi Chris. I am in agreement. If the F&R paper has merit (and on the face of it, stripping out short term climate influences on some basis seems an entirely reasonable approach), it provides a falsifiable mechanism against which to test the AGW hypothesis.”
Actually F&R (2011) does not have merit, it is not a reasonable approach, and it cannot be used as a test of the hypothesis of AGW. There are two significant problems with F&R (2011), which I described in an earlier comment. I’ll replay them here.
The most obvious error with F&R (2011) is their use of an ENSO index in their regression analysis. ENSO indices do not represent the process of ENSO. ENSO indices only represent its local effects on the equatorial Pacific, or in the case of the MEI, its effects on the tropical Pacific. This is discussed and illustrated in detail in the 2-part post “ENSO Indices Do Not Represent The Process Of ENSO Or Its Impact On Global Temperature”. See here:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/enso-indices-do-not-represent-the-process-of-enso-or-its-impact-on-global-temperature/
And here:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/supplement-to-enso-indices-do-not-represent-the-process-of-enso-or-its-impact-on-global-temperature/
So yes, like many other authors before them, Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) misrepresent the process of ENSO by attempting to remove its wiggles from global temperature with the MEI. The authors either misunderstand ENSO or they are attempting to mislead their readers.
With respect to solar, Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) assume a 0-month lag and use regression analysis to extract a solar signal from the global temperature data. This might be applicable for land surface temperature data and for TLT over land, but it does not address the thermal lag of the oceans. The lag has been studied for decades and the debate about lags still rages on, with estimates ranging from months to decades. Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) clearly overlook this in their paper.