Frank Lansner on Foster and Rahmstorf 2011

This is a repost from Lansner’s website, since Tamino aka Grant Foster won’t allow it to be discussed on his own website, I thought I’d give a forum for discussion here. – Anthony

The real temperature trend given by Foster and Rahmstorf 2011?
Posted by Frank Lansner (frank) on 17th December, 2011

(whoops, I’m not allowed to link to this article at Taminos site… I’ve never written on Taminos site, but he seems to know not to let me write – Frank)

Fig1. Foster and Rahmstorf recently released a writing on ”The real global warming signal”.

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-real-global-warming-signal/ The point from F&R is, I believe, debating to counter the “sceptic” argument that temperatures has stagnated during the last decade or more. Since this is an essential issue in the climate debate I decided to investigate if F&R did a sensible calculation using relevant parameters.

Hadcrut global temperatures do have a rather flat trend these days:

Fig2. It is possible to go back to 1 may 1997 and still see flat trend for Hadcrut temperature data, so this data set will be subject for this writing:

Can F&R´s arguments and calculations actually induce a significant warm trend even to Hadcrut 1998-2011?

F&R use three parameters for their corrections, ENSO, AOD (volcanic atmospheric dimming) and TSI (Total Solar Irradiation).

“Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.

More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.

Fig3. FF&R has chosen MEI to represent EL Nino and La Nina impacts on global temperatures. MEI is the “raw” Nina3,4 SST that directly represents the EL Nino and La Nina, but in the MEI index, also SOI is implemented. To chose the most suited parameter I have compared NOAA´s ONI which is only Nina3.4 index and MEI to temperature graphs to evaluate which to prefer.

Both Hadcrut and RSS has a slightly better match with the pure Nina 3,4 ONI index which will therefore be used in the following. (Both sets was moved 3mth to achieve best it with temperature variations).

Fig4.

After correcting for Nina3,4 index (El Nino + La Nina) there is still hardly any trend in Hadcrut data 1998-2011. (If MEI is chosen, this results in a slight warming trend of approx 0,07 K/decade for the corrected Hadcrut data 1998-2011).

Fig5. I then scaled to best fit for SATO volcano data set. For the years after 1998, there is not really any impact from volcanoes, and thus we can say:

There is no heat trend in Hadcrut data after 1998 even when corrected for EL Nino/La Nina and volcanoes.

However, this changes when inducing Solar activity, I chose Sun Spot Number, SSN, to represent the Solar activity:

Fig6.

To best estimate the scaling of SSN I detrended the Nino3,4 and volcano corrected Hadcrut data and scaled SSN to best fit. Unlike F&R, I get the variation of SSN to equal 0,2K, not 0,1 K as F&R shows.

Now see what happens:

Fig7.

F&R describes the Solar activity (“TSI” as they write…) to be of smallest importance in their calculations. However, it is only the Solar activity, SSN, that ends up making even the Hadcrut years after 1998 show a warm trend when corrected. On Fig7 I have plotted the yearly results by F&R for Hadcrut and they are nearly identical to my results.

So, a smaller warming from my using Nino 3,4 combined with the larger impact of Solar activity I find cancels out each other.

ISSUES

For now it has been evaluated what F&R has done, now lets consider issues:

1) F&R assume that temperature change from for exaple El Nino or period of raised Solar activity etc. will dissapear fully immidiately after such an event ends. F&R assumes that heat does not accumulate from one temperature event to the next.

2) Missing corrections for PDO

3) Missing corrections for human aerosols – (supposed to be important)

4) Missing corrections for AMO

5) F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

Issue 1: F&R assume that all effect from a shorter warming or cooling period is totally gone after the effect is gone.

Fundamentally, the F&R approach demands that all effects of the three parameters they use for corrections only have here-and-now effects.

Example:

Fig8.

In the above approaches, the Nino3,4 peaks are removed by assuming that all effects from for example a short intense heat effect can be removed by removing heat only when the heating effect occurs, but not removing any heat after the effect it self has ended.

Now, to examine this approach I compare 2 datasets. A) Hadcrut temperatures, “corrected” for Nina3,4 , volcanoes and SSN effects as shown in the above – detrended. B) The Nino3,4 index indicating El Ninos/La Ninas and thus the timing of adjustments. (We remember, that the Nino3,4 was moved 3 months to fit temperature data before adjusting):

Fig9.

After for example “removing” heat caused by El Ninas during the specific El Nino periods, you see heat peaks 1 – 2 years later in the “Nino3,4” corrected detrended temperature data.

That is: After red peaks you see black peaks..

This means that the approach of systematically only removing heat when heat effect is occurring is fundamentally wrong.

Wrong to what extent? Typically, the heat not removed by correcting for Nina3,4 shows 1-2 years later than the heat effect. Could this have impact on decadal temperature trends?

Maybe so: In most cases of El Nino peaks, first we have the Nino3,4 red peak, then 1-2 years after the remaining black peak in temperature data that then dives. But notice that normally the dives in remaining heat (black) normally occurs when dives in the red Nino3,4 index starts.

This suggests, that the remaining heat from an El Nino peak is not fast disappearing by itself, but rather, is removed when colder Nino3,4 conditions induces a cold effect.

In general, we are working with noisy volcano and SSN corrected data, so to any conclusion there will be some situations where the “normal” observations is not seen strongly.

Now, what happens is we focus on periods where the Nino3,4 index for longer periods than 2 years is more neutral – no major peaks?

Fig10.

Now, the detrended Hadcrut temperature “corrected” for Nina3,4, Volcanoes and SSN –  black graph – has been 2 years averaged:

The impact of El Ninos and La Ninas is still clearly visible in data supposed to be corrected for these impacts. Since this correction by F&R is their “most important” correction, and it fails, then we can conclude that F&R 2011 is fundamentally flawed and useless.

Reality is complex and F&R has mostly seen the tip of the iceberg, no more.

More: Notice the periods 1976-1981 and  2002-2007. In both cases, we a period of a few years with Nino3,4 index rather neutral. In these cases, the temperature level does not change radically.

In the 1976-81 period, the La Ninas up to 1977 leaves temperatures cold, and they stay cold for years while Nino3,4 remains rather neutral. After the 2002-3 El Nino, Nino3,4 index remains rather neutral, and temperatures simply stays warm.

Issue 2: Missing corrections for PDO

Quite related to the above issue of ignoring long term effects of temperature peaks, we see no mention of the PDO.

Fig11. Don Easterbrook suggests that a general warming occurs when PDO is warm, and a general cooling occurs when PDO is cold. (PDO = Pacific Decadal Oscillation). That is, even though PDO index remains constant but warm, the heat should accumulate over the years rather than be only short term dependent strictly related to the PDO index of a given year. This is in full compliance with the long term effects of temperature peaks shown under issue 1.

Don Easterbrook suggests 0,5K of heating 1979-2000 due the PDO long term heat effect.

I think the principle is correct, I cant know if the 0,5K is correct – it is obviously debated – but certainly, you need to consider the PDO long term effect on temperatures in connection with ANY attempt to correct temperature data. F&R fails to do so, although potentially, PDO heat is suggested to explain all heat trend after 1979.

I would like to analyse temperature data for PDO effect if possible.

Fig12. PDO data taken from http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/PDO.latest

To analyse PDO-effect we have to realise that PDO and Nino3,4 (not surprisingly) have a lot in common. This means, that I cant analyse PDO effects in a dataset “corrected” for Nino3,4 as it would to some degree also be “corrected” for PDO…

More, this strong resemblance between Nino3,4 and PDO has this consequence:

When Don Easterbrook says that PDO has long term effect, he’s also saying that Nino3,4 has long term effects – just as concluded in issue 1.

Fig13. Thus, I am working with PDO signal compared to Hadcrut temperatures corrected for volcanoes and SSN only. The general idea that heat can be accumulated from one period to the next (long term effects) is clearly supported in this compare. If PDO heat (like any heat!) can be expected to be accumulated, then we can se for each larger PDO-heat-peak temperatures on Earth rises to a steady higher level.

Fig14. Note: in the early 1960´ies, the correction of volcano Agung is highly questionably because different sources of data concerning the effect of Agung are not at all in agreement. Most likely I have over-adjusted for cooling effect of Agung. On the above graph from Mauna Loa it appears that hardly any adjustment should be done…

Scientists often claim that we HAVE to induce CO2 in models to explain the heat trend. Here we have heat trends corrected for volcanoes and SSN, now watch how much math it takes to explain temperature rise after 1980 using PDO:

Fig15. “Math” to explain temperature trend using PDO. Due to the uncertainty on data around 1960 (Agung + mismatch with RUTI world index/unadjusted GHCN) I have made a curve beginning before and after 1960. For each month I add a fraction of the PDO signal to the temperature of last month, that is, I assume that heat created last month “wont go away” by itself, but is regulated by impacts of present month. This approach is likely not perfect either but it shows how easy temperature trends can be explained if you accept PDO influence globally.

(In addition I made some other scenarios where temperatures would seek zero to some degree, and also where I used square root on PDO input which may work slightly better, square root to boost smaller changes near zero PDO).

Now, how can PDO all by itself impact a long steady heat on Earth?? Does heat come from deep ocean or??

Fig16. It goes without saying that SSN and PDO (and thus Nina3,4 as shown) are related.

Is it likely that PDO affects Sun Spot Numbers? No, so we can conclude that Solar activity drives temperatures PDO which again can explain temperature changes on Earth.

Suddenly this analysis has become more interesting than F&R-evaluation, but this graph also shows that F&R was wrong on yet another point: Notice on the graph that we work the temperatures “CORRECTED” for Solar activity… But AFTER each peak of SSN we see accumulation of heat on earth still there after “correcting” for solar activity. Thus, again, it is fundamentally wrong to assume no long term affects of temperature changes. This time, temperature effect can be seen in many years after the “corrected” Solar activity occurred.

Conclusion: PDO appears Solar driven and can easily explain temperature developments analysed.

Thus perhaps the most important factors to be corrected for – if you want to know about potential Co2 effects – was not corrected for by F&R 2011.

Issue 3: Missing corrections for human aerosols – that are supposed to be important

It is repeatedly claimed by the AGW side in the climate debate that human sulphates / aerosols should explain significant changes in temperatures on earth.

When you read F&R I cant stop wonder: Why don’t they speak about Human aerosols now?

http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/greenhouse/greenhouse_gas.html

Fig17. In basically all sources of sulphur emissions it appears that around 1980-90 these started to decline.

If truly these aerosols explains significant cooling, well, then a reduced cooling agent after 1980 should be accounted for when adjusting temperature data to find “the real” temperature signal.

F&R fails to do so.

Issue 4: Missing corrections for AMO

AMO appears to affect temperatures in the Arctic and also on large land areas of the NH.

Fig18. In fact, the temperatures of the AMO-affected Arctic is supposed to be an important parameter for global temperature trends, and thus correcting for AMO may be relevant.

The AMO appears to boost temperatures for years 2000-2010 , so any correction of temperatures using AMO would reduce temperature trend after 1980.

F&R do not mention AMO.

Issue 5: F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

F&R only shows impacts after 1979, possibly due to the limitations of satellite data.

Fig19. “Correcting” Hadcrut data for nino3,4 + volcanoes it turns out that the heat trend from 1950 is reduced around 0,16K or around 25%. Why not show this?

I chose 1950 as staring point because both Nina3,4 and SATO volcano index begins in 1950.

Conclusion

F&R appear seems to assume that temperature impacts on Earth only has impact while occurring, not after. If you heat up a glass of water, the heat wont go away instantly after removing the heat source, so to assume this for this Earth would need some documentation.

Only “correcting” for the instant fraction of a temperature impact and not impacts after ended impact gives a rather complex dataset with significant random appearing errors and thus, the resulting F&R “adjusted data” for temperatures appears useless. At least until the long term effect of temperature changes has been established in a robust manner.

Further, it seems that the PDO, Nin3,4 and Solar activities are related, and just by using the simplest mathematics (done to PDO) these can explain recent development in temperatures on Earth. The argument that “CO2 is needed to explain recent temperature trends” appears to be flat wrong.

Thus “correcting” for PDO/Nina3,4 long term effect might remove heat trend of temperature data all together.

Solar activity is shown to be an important driver PDO/Nino3,4 and thus climate.

Finally, can we then use temperature data without the above adjustment types?

Given the complexities involved with such adjustments, it is definitely better to accept the actual data than a datasets that appears to be fundamentally flawed.

Should one adjust just for Nino3,4 this lacks long time effects of Nina3,4 and more it does not remove flat trend from the recent decade of Hadcrut temperature data.

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Editor
December 18, 2011 5:58 pm

Frank Lansner: Somehow this discussion has drifted from my original comment to you. In it I quoted what you wrote in the post, which was, “TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate. More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.”
To you, TSI is wrong to use, and sunspots are okay. I provided a graph that showed that TSI and sunspots are highly correlated.
http://i39.tinypic.com/15n9a8k.jpg
They basically vary in unison, and this indicates that it would have made no difference to the results of Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) if they had used sunspots in place of TSI. It also means that you could have used TSI for your wiggle matching in place of sunspots and still come up with the same wiggles.
You said that TSI was wrong, but “Solar Activity” was okay. TSI is one of the indices of solar activity. Sunspots are another.
You said that TSI was not “the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate”, and you said that “cloud cover” was okay. But cloud cover is not a measure or a proxy for solar variability. You provided me links that showed an agreement between low cloud amount and TSI, BUT in your post you said that TSI was “less relevant and should not be used”. So how is TSI relevant to one side of your argument (clouds) but not the other (Earth’s climate)? Your logic is as faulty as your hypotheses. Also, if TSI does agree with low-level cloud amount, you’re still forgetting mid-level and high-level cloud amounts, all of which impact the amount of sunlight that reaches the Earth.

December 18, 2011 6:01 pm

I have some questions from a layman:
First, “F&R use three parameters for their corrections, ENSO, AOD (volcanic atmospheric dimming) and TSI (Total Solar Irradiation).”
If the Pacific Ocean has an effect on global temperature, then it would seem logical that so would the Atlantic Ocean. Does it then make sense that F&R would not also factor in the Atlantic? Also, it would seem reasonable to wonder if the only effect on global temperature that the Pacific has it through the ENSO, or is there more?
It seems to me that what F&R is using is all “estimates” insofar as they are estimating what the effect of each of the parameters they’ve chosen is on the overall global temperature. Then, they estimate what is left without the estimated warming of ENSO, AOD, and TSI and that is then estimated to be the effect of atmospheric CO2. Is my understanding correct?

Editor
December 18, 2011 6:11 pm

Carrick says: “The prevailing hypothesis is that the PDO is caused by a “reddening” of ENSO combined with stochastic atmospheric forcing.[2]“
In other words, the PDO is an aftereffect of ENSO and is also influenced by Sea Level Pressure.

crosspatch
December 18, 2011 8:06 pm

If MEI is a (lagging) solar proxy, wouldn’t the inclusion of TSI simply be adjusting for solar twice?
I mean, I don’t think it has been firmly established exactly WHY we see these things in correlation with solar changes, but the fact that they do can be accepted.

crosspatch
December 18, 2011 8:26 pm

That TSI varies with solar activity isn’t disputed. The thing is that TSI itself probably isn’t the cause of major changes in climate, at least not changes to the degree we have seen over the past 1000 years.
It would be like witnessing a shooting. You hear a loud bang, you see the person fall, and you come to the conclusion that loud noises kill people. That would be an invalid conclusion. But coming to the conclusion that when you hear that noise, someone might be hurt is a valid one. The noise doesn’t hurt them but the noise happens at the same time as the thing that hurts them is happening.
Yes there is a change in TSI, no, I don’t believe that variation is enough to explain what we see so the variation in TSI is something else that is happening at the same time as what it is that causes major climate variations. Sure, could be GCRs. Might be several different things working together.
I don’t say I know exactly what the mechanism is but I believe we are at a point where we can say that there certainly is something going on there.

davidmhoffer
December 18, 2011 8:45 pm

Bob Tisdal;
http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/news/2010ScienceMeeting/posters/Poster%20Presentations/Poster_Morrill_comparing_MgII.pdf
Here is one of the papers I mentioned having looked at some time ago. There are others as well, but the general drift is the same. There are specific frequencies of solar flux that vary considerably with sunspot activity. Some frequencies are correlated, and some anti-correlated. Point being what I was trying to get at earlier. While TSI may vary within a given range, it is very possible, and even likely, that given frequency bands vary in much larger ranges. This changes everything from ionization of oxygen to ozone, breaking up of ozone, depth of penetration into the oceans, and, I’m guessing, penty of other factors too.
Hence, if one tracks TSI only, one is not looking at the full picture. Sunspots on the other hand, are what seem to drive the fluctuations in energy flux at various frequencies, both those that are correlated, and those that are anti-correlated. I’d think one could get some better clues as to what drives what by correlating against sunspots rather than TSI, but I think that’s still being to broad. One would need to break down the various frequencies and consider how each band not only fluctuates, but how that specific band interacts with the TOA on down to the depths of the oceans.

barry
December 18, 2011 9:14 pm

Fig19. “Correcting” Hadcrut data for nino3,4 + volcanoes it turns out that the heat trend from 1950 is reduced around 0,16K or around 25%. Why not show this?

They didn’t use nino3,4 index, they used MEI.
A first-base analysis would have been to replicate their methods and sources to check. I assume you did this and found no discrepancies?
You have chosen different data to examine the issue. Such choices must have a sound physical basis. One can match any number of ocean/atmosphere oscillating patterns to temperature data and find some correlation, but we should always be wary of curve-fitting and conflating correlation and cause. For instance, you suggest Atlantic SSTs (AMO) lead global temps – but that is not the case – AMO phase shifts follow global temperatures. (This also appears to be the case for high-frequency variation)
And why on Earth (pun intended) would you choose sunspot numbers and “solar variation” (whatever that means) over TSI? TSI (‘Total Solar Irradiance‘ by the way) measures the changes in solar output directly, from space, every few hours, daily. This is a much tighter metric of the sun’s radiant energy changes than sunspot numbers. And if you’re going to posit clouds and cosmic rays as influences within solar variation, then you should include that in your analysis, rather than just picking sunspot numbers (for whatever reason).
In any case, your review doesn’t find flaws in F&R because it uses different metrics, and the crux of the matter, your rationales for the metrics you use instead, is weakly supported, IMO.

December 19, 2011 12:30 am

Rhys Jaggar says:
December 18, 2011 at 4:58 am
One thing which appears to be absolutely clear: even those who believe in major solar impacts on climate can’t agree whether it will get warmer or cooler the next 50 years.
Sorry, but to know that even those who believe in major solar impacts on climate can’t agree whether it will get warmer {or cooler} the next 50 years, you must have a knowledge about it. And because it seems, that you have no knowledge about it, it is
not absolutely clear appearance on that thing.
There is never a clearness on no thing. You never can speak of evidence for no thing.
“Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.”
(Ludwig Wittgenstein)
BTW. If one knows the
functions of the major solar impacts on climate
then he is able to talk about the climate in the next 50 years.
V.

Editor
December 19, 2011 12:32 am

davidmhoffer: Thanks for the link. You wrote, “I’d think one could get some better clues as to what drives what by correlating against sunspots rather than TSI…”
Back to the discussion at hand: since 1979, Sunspot Numbers and TSI are highly correlated.
http://i39.tinypic.com/15n9a8k.jpg
My point with Frank was that it would make little difference to the outcome of Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) if they had used Sunspot Numbers instead of TSI. All Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) were trying to do was reduce the flattening of the surface temperature record in recent years. And it would have made even less of a difference to Frank Lansner’s visual comparisons if he had used TSI instead of Sunspot Numbers, since all he was doing was wiggle matching.

December 19, 2011 1:34 am

crosspatch says: “…but I am having a bit of a chicken-egg issue. It is the ENSO / PDO connection that is giving me fits. Does one cause the other? If so, which one activates the other.”
If both are results symptoms of a Sun-driven mechanism the timing of which is first is not essential.
Some times PDO peak appears slightly before ENSO, sometimes the other way around:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/Fig12.jpg
My impression is that SOI driven La Ninas may lead to ENSO-before-PDO, and sometimes when SOI appears not to be main driver of La Nina (like june-december 2011), PDO comes first and appears like a “driver” roughly speaking.
->We actually have still stronger La Nina conditions now, but these could not have been predicted using SOI, but do show some “sence” when you look at PDO. So now it seems we have colder waters from North (and South?) not “created” around the pacific, but just piling up near the Pacific looking like a normal SOI driven La Nina, but its not.
The exciting thing right now is, that NOW finaly the SOI index is growing, ON TOP of waters apparently maintained cold by cold PDO waters. This give opportunity for a rather cold La Nina in the coming months. Exciting!
K.R Frank

December 19, 2011 1:37 am

Correction:
“So now it seems we have colder waters from North (and South?) not “created” around the pacific EQUATOR, but just piling up near the Pacific looking like a normal SOI driven La Nina, but its not.”

LazyTeenager
December 19, 2011 1:51 am

“Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.
———–
Seriously. Now skeptical about changes in the solar output affecting earth temperatures.
How many of you guys actually swallow this nonsense?
Look it’s really simple. The sun warms the earth. Climate scientists know this but they also know the energy output of the sun is nearly constant. So small changes in solar output produce only small changes in global temperature.
The F-and-R paper removes the influence these small TSI changes so the effect of other things is easier to identify.

December 19, 2011 1:56 am

Crosspatch/Vukcevic
To my comment December 19, 2011 at 1:34 am
“Some times PDO peak appears slightly before ENSO, sometimes the other way around”
Vukcevic lower graphic http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/PDO.htm
shows this more clearly than my graphic. Thankyou Vukcevic.
K.R. Frank

LazyTeenager
December 19, 2011 2:00 am

This means that the approach of systematically only removing heat when heat effect is occurring is fundamentally wrong.
———-
Probably. But then, as far as I understand it, F-and-R did not do this, they use a phase difference as an adjustable parameter.
Guys I suggest you go to the primary source first and then compare it with what Frank says. This will give you a much better idea of whether Frank has the faintest idea of what he is talking about. Taking Frank’s word on this is likely a mistake.

December 19, 2011 2:08 am

M.A.Vukcevic says: December 18, 2011 at 12:19 pm
“PDO, I believe, is mainly a wind driven oscillation…”
My hunch is, that AO in periods of lower Sun activity allows winds to reach further South due to the smaller differences in pressure over a South-north line. Its simply easier for winds to travel from the Arctic south during lower Sun activity.
This might reach the northern Pacific with colder air and thus lower SST on the very most northern Pacific waters which in turn flows south east and finally is piled up at the Equator.
This is just a hunch.
K.R: Frank

December 19, 2011 2:20 am

barry
I made the compare with both Nino 3,4 and MEI: No difference, the graph is based on MEI as it should be though. But you are correct, it should say “MEI” in the text.
K.R. Frank

December 19, 2011 2:25 am

Barry:
“A first-base analysis would have been to replicate their methods and sources to check. I assume you did this and found no discrepancies?”
Yes, I did that. Also, see fig 7 , its rather close to what you are looking for.
I found that Nino3,4 was best choice and explained why, and i found that their Solar correction was too low. I explain that these two differnces has opposite effects and thus cancels out each others effect on trend. This is why Fig 7 is rather close to what you rightfully seek.
K.R. Frank

Editor
December 19, 2011 2:27 am

Frank Lansner: In an earlier comment I wrote, I cannot find anything you’ve written or any graph that strongly suggests that the PDO is Solar driven.
I found the graph you’re referring to. You specifically cited it in your December 18, 2011 at 12:46 pm to Vukcevic. There you wrote, “heres the graphi that appears to show Solar driving of PDO (+ temperature…)
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/Fig16.jpg”
You have too many variables on that graph so let’s look at only the PDO data and sunspots. I’ve tried to scale the sunspot anomalies to what you’ve shown, and I’ve scaled the PDO by the same factor of 0.2 that you used:
http://i40.tinypic.com/s3euso.jpg
Visually, there is little relationship between the two datasets, and this is confirmed with a correlation analysis. The correlation coefficient for them is 0.012. You can’t get much worse than that. Here’s the comparison with the data smoothed with a 13-month running-average filter. It confirms that there is no visual relationship between the variations in sunspot numbers and the variations in the PDO:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2e1txqa.jpg
And earlier I had noted that I had written a number of posts that discussed what the PDO was and what it wasn’t. Here’s my Introduction to the PDO. It would be a good place for you to start:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/an-introduction-to-enso-amo-and-pdo-part-3/
And here are a couple more:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/an-inverse-relationship-between-the-pdo-and-north-pacific-sst-anomaly-residuals/
And:
http://bobtisdale.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/yet-even-more-discussions-about-the-pacific-decadal-oscillation-pdo/
Have a Merry Christmas, Frank.

Pete in Cumbria UK
December 19, 2011 2:53 am

From the introduction of Faster Tramline’s piece..
This widespread temperature increase is corroborated by a range of warming-related impacts: shrinking mountain glaciers, accelerating ice loss from ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica, shrinking Arctic sea ice extent, sea level rise, and a number of well-documented blah blahs..
Surely this is all just pure BS. Sea level would sky-rocket if even a tiny part of Greenland melted, never mind Antarctica. Add on thermal expansion and sea-level rise would be hugely more than the poxy little 3mm/yr that it’s recently been – and its gone precisely nowhere for the last 2 years by some accounts.
So you know they’ve done sweet FA real research and know exactly what their conclusions would be just by reading the intro. Then you skip to the end and guess what, shock horror, you see a fantastically perfectly fuzzy line moving inexorably upwards along with veiled use of the word ‘anthropogenic’ Wouldn’t the pair of them be better employed playing Space Invaders or Bubble Shooter with their computers than pumping out this hopelessly biased dross?

Pete in Cumbria UK
December 19, 2011 3:02 am

Oops, excuse my poor speeling up there, BS is not my first language 🙁

December 19, 2011 3:08 am

Barry,
1) The dataset I subject to further analysis on fig 7 totaly matches the F&R dataset (!)
Therefore further analysis of this dataset per definition is not vulnerable to how I got it, do you understand this?
Even if I did it using numerology or by reading from their graph. IFIF my (better!) dataset had been different from theris, i would have had to use theirs, but thats just not the case and i like better to work with a good dataset!!!!!
2) your considerations TSI vs. SSN etc. do have some logic i respect (!) but your conclusions are ….
I makes NO difference what so ever if i had used SSN or TSI or one of the other Solar parameters to make the kind of considerations I do:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/Fig16.jpg
So, yes i realise some good points you have (!) but your massive conlusions appears without hollow, almost agenda like.
K.R. Frank

December 19, 2011 3:30 am

And Barry…
Bob Tisdale actually come with some arguments against my PDO “issue”..
But take a look at the issues I point out in F&R:

1) F&R assume that temperature change from for exaple El Nino or period of raised Solar activity etc. will dissapear fully immidiately after such an event ends. F&R assumes that heat does not accumulate from one temperature event to the next.
2) Missing corrections for PDO
3) Missing corrections for human aerosols – (supposed to be important)
4) Missing corrections for AMO
5) F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

Is there just ONE of the issues that I point out that you actually address?

Gail Combs
December 19, 2011 4:07 am

Camburn says:
December 17, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Thank you. It appears that it is really just childs play to take this paper apart.
I know Tamino thinks he is a great thinker in his own mind, but a great statistician, he is not.
The first time I read that paper I thought what rubbish. Your analysis verifies that thought process.
How in the world do these folks get this junk published??????????????
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Phil Jones & Micheal Mann were the reviewers? I would put in a but I am afraid that could be the actual case.

Gail Combs
December 19, 2011 4:10 am

Hmm it looks like wordpress removed my sarcasm tag from the above
Should read:
I would put in a (sarcasm tag) but I am afraid that could be the actual case.

December 19, 2011 4:38 am

Hi Bob Tisdale, i see a lot of comments on the PDO , interesting, thankyou very much, i will return to you on this.
I have no intension of demanding PDO considered from F&R if not relevant, but i hope that if I dont agree with you on this, you wont take it too bad 🙂