This is a repost from Lansner’s website, since Tamino aka Grant Foster won’t allow it to be discussed on his own website, I thought I’d give a forum for discussion here. – Anthony
| The real temperature trend given by Foster and Rahmstorf 2011? |
| Posted by Frank Lansner (frank) on 17th December, 2011 |
(whoops, I’m not allowed to link to this article at Taminos site… I’ve never written on Taminos site, but he seems to know not to let me write – Frank)

Fig1. Foster and Rahmstorf recently released a writing on ”The real global warming signal”.
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-real-global-warming-signal/ The point from F&R is, I believe, debating to counter the “sceptic” argument that temperatures has stagnated during the last decade or more. Since this is an essential issue in the climate debate I decided to investigate if F&R did a sensible calculation using relevant parameters.
Hadcrut global temperatures do have a rather flat trend these days:

Fig2. It is possible to go back to 1 may 1997 and still see flat trend for Hadcrut temperature data, so this data set will be subject for this writing:
Can F&R´s arguments and calculations actually induce a significant warm trend even to Hadcrut 1998-2011?
F&R use three parameters for their corrections, ENSO, AOD (volcanic atmospheric dimming) and TSI (Total Solar Irradiation).
“Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.
More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.

Fig3. FF&R has chosen MEI to represent EL Nino and La Nina impacts on global temperatures. MEI is the “raw” Nina3,4 SST that directly represents the EL Nino and La Nina, but in the MEI index, also SOI is implemented. To chose the most suited parameter I have compared NOAA´s ONI which is only Nina3.4 index and MEI to temperature graphs to evaluate which to prefer.
Both Hadcrut and RSS has a slightly better match with the pure Nina 3,4 ONI index which will therefore be used in the following. (Both sets was moved 3mth to achieve best it with temperature variations).

Fig4.
After correcting for Nina3,4 index (El Nino + La Nina) there is still hardly any trend in Hadcrut data 1998-2011. (If MEI is chosen, this results in a slight warming trend of approx 0,07 K/decade for the corrected Hadcrut data 1998-2011).

Fig5. I then scaled to best fit for SATO volcano data set. For the years after 1998, there is not really any impact from volcanoes, and thus we can say:
There is no heat trend in Hadcrut data after 1998 even when corrected for EL Nino/La Nina and volcanoes.
However, this changes when inducing Solar activity, I chose Sun Spot Number, SSN, to represent the Solar activity:

Fig6.
To best estimate the scaling of SSN I detrended the Nino3,4 and volcano corrected Hadcrut data and scaled SSN to best fit. Unlike F&R, I get the variation of SSN to equal 0,2K, not 0,1 K as F&R shows.
Now see what happens:

Fig7.
F&R describes the Solar activity (“TSI” as they write…) to be of smallest importance in their calculations. However, it is only the Solar activity, SSN, that ends up making even the Hadcrut years after 1998 show a warm trend when corrected. On Fig7 I have plotted the yearly results by F&R for Hadcrut and they are nearly identical to my results.
So, a smaller warming from my using Nino 3,4 combined with the larger impact of Solar activity I find cancels out each other.
ISSUES
For now it has been evaluated what F&R has done, now lets consider issues:
1) F&R assume that temperature change from for exaple El Nino or period of raised Solar activity etc. will dissapear fully immidiately after such an event ends. F&R assumes that heat does not accumulate from one temperature event to the next.
2) Missing corrections for PDO
3) Missing corrections for human aerosols – (supposed to be important)
4) Missing corrections for AMO
5) F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979
Issue 1: F&R assume that all effect from a shorter warming or cooling period is totally gone after the effect is gone.
Fundamentally, the F&R approach demands that all effects of the three parameters they use for corrections only have here-and-now effects.
Example:

Fig8.
In the above approaches, the Nino3,4 peaks are removed by assuming that all effects from for example a short intense heat effect can be removed by removing heat only when the heating effect occurs, but not removing any heat after the effect it self has ended.
Now, to examine this approach I compare 2 datasets. A) Hadcrut temperatures, “corrected” for Nina3,4 , volcanoes and SSN effects as shown in the above – detrended. B) The Nino3,4 index indicating El Ninos/La Ninas and thus the timing of adjustments. (We remember, that the Nino3,4 was moved 3 months to fit temperature data before adjusting):

Fig9.
After for example “removing” heat caused by El Ninas during the specific El Nino periods, you see heat peaks 1 – 2 years later in the “Nino3,4” corrected detrended temperature data.
That is: After red peaks you see black peaks..
This means that the approach of systematically only removing heat when heat effect is occurring is fundamentally wrong.
Wrong to what extent? Typically, the heat not removed by correcting for Nina3,4 shows 1-2 years later than the heat effect. Could this have impact on decadal temperature trends?
Maybe so: In most cases of El Nino peaks, first we have the Nino3,4 red peak, then 1-2 years after the remaining black peak in temperature data that then dives. But notice that normally the dives in remaining heat (black) normally occurs when dives in the red Nino3,4 index starts.
This suggests, that the remaining heat from an El Nino peak is not fast disappearing by itself, but rather, is removed when colder Nino3,4 conditions induces a cold effect.
In general, we are working with noisy volcano and SSN corrected data, so to any conclusion there will be some situations where the “normal” observations is not seen strongly.
Now, what happens is we focus on periods where the Nino3,4 index for longer periods than 2 years is more neutral – no major peaks?

Fig10.
Now, the detrended Hadcrut temperature “corrected” for Nina3,4, Volcanoes and SSN – black graph – has been 2 years averaged:
The impact of El Ninos and La Ninas is still clearly visible in data supposed to be corrected for these impacts. Since this correction by F&R is their “most important” correction, and it fails, then we can conclude that F&R 2011 is fundamentally flawed and useless.
Reality is complex and F&R has mostly seen the tip of the iceberg, no more.
More: Notice the periods 1976-1981 and 2002-2007. In both cases, we a period of a few years with Nino3,4 index rather neutral. In these cases, the temperature level does not change radically.
In the 1976-81 period, the La Ninas up to 1977 leaves temperatures cold, and they stay cold for years while Nino3,4 remains rather neutral. After the 2002-3 El Nino, Nino3,4 index remains rather neutral, and temperatures simply stays warm.
Issue 2: Missing corrections for PDO
Quite related to the above issue of ignoring long term effects of temperature peaks, we see no mention of the PDO.

Fig11. Don Easterbrook suggests that a general warming occurs when PDO is warm, and a general cooling occurs when PDO is cold. (PDO = Pacific Decadal Oscillation). That is, even though PDO index remains constant but warm, the heat should accumulate over the years rather than be only short term dependent strictly related to the PDO index of a given year. This is in full compliance with the long term effects of temperature peaks shown under issue 1.
Don Easterbrook suggests 0,5K of heating 1979-2000 due the PDO long term heat effect.
I think the principle is correct, I cant know if the 0,5K is correct – it is obviously debated – but certainly, you need to consider the PDO long term effect on temperatures in connection with ANY attempt to correct temperature data. F&R fails to do so, although potentially, PDO heat is suggested to explain all heat trend after 1979.
I would like to analyse temperature data for PDO effect if possible.

Fig12. PDO data taken from http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/PDO.latest
To analyse PDO-effect we have to realise that PDO and Nino3,4 (not surprisingly) have a lot in common. This means, that I cant analyse PDO effects in a dataset “corrected” for Nino3,4 as it would to some degree also be “corrected” for PDO…
More, this strong resemblance between Nino3,4 and PDO has this consequence:
When Don Easterbrook says that PDO has long term effect, he’s also saying that Nino3,4 has long term effects – just as concluded in issue 1.

Fig13. Thus, I am working with PDO signal compared to Hadcrut temperatures corrected for volcanoes and SSN only. The general idea that heat can be accumulated from one period to the next (long term effects) is clearly supported in this compare. If PDO heat (like any heat!) can be expected to be accumulated, then we can se for each larger PDO-heat-peak temperatures on Earth rises to a steady higher level.

Fig14. Note: in the early 1960´ies, the correction of volcano Agung is highly questionably because different sources of data concerning the effect of Agung are not at all in agreement. Most likely I have over-adjusted for cooling effect of Agung. On the above graph from Mauna Loa it appears that hardly any adjustment should be done…
Scientists often claim that we HAVE to induce CO2 in models to explain the heat trend. Here we have heat trends corrected for volcanoes and SSN, now watch how much math it takes to explain temperature rise after 1980 using PDO:

Fig15. “Math” to explain temperature trend using PDO. Due to the uncertainty on data around 1960 (Agung + mismatch with RUTI world index/unadjusted GHCN) I have made a curve beginning before and after 1960. For each month I add a fraction of the PDO signal to the temperature of last month, that is, I assume that heat created last month “wont go away” by itself, but is regulated by impacts of present month. This approach is likely not perfect either but it shows how easy temperature trends can be explained if you accept PDO influence globally.
(In addition I made some other scenarios where temperatures would seek zero to some degree, and also where I used square root on PDO input which may work slightly better, square root to boost smaller changes near zero PDO).
Now, how can PDO all by itself impact a long steady heat on Earth?? Does heat come from deep ocean or??

Fig16. It goes without saying that SSN and PDO (and thus Nina3,4 as shown) are related.
Is it likely that PDO affects Sun Spot Numbers? No, so we can conclude that Solar activity drives temperatures PDO which again can explain temperature changes on Earth.
Suddenly this analysis has become more interesting than F&R-evaluation, but this graph also shows that F&R was wrong on yet another point: Notice on the graph that we work the temperatures “CORRECTED” for Solar activity… But AFTER each peak of SSN we see accumulation of heat on earth still there after “correcting” for solar activity. Thus, again, it is fundamentally wrong to assume no long term affects of temperature changes. This time, temperature effect can be seen in many years after the “corrected” Solar activity occurred.
Conclusion: PDO appears Solar driven and can easily explain temperature developments analysed.
Thus perhaps the most important factors to be corrected for – if you want to know about potential Co2 effects – was not corrected for by F&R 2011.
Issue 3: Missing corrections for human aerosols – that are supposed to be important
It is repeatedly claimed by the AGW side in the climate debate that human sulphates / aerosols should explain significant changes in temperatures on earth.
When you read F&R I cant stop wonder: Why don’t they speak about Human aerosols now?

http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/greenhouse/greenhouse_gas.html
Fig17. In basically all sources of sulphur emissions it appears that around 1980-90 these started to decline.
If truly these aerosols explains significant cooling, well, then a reduced cooling agent after 1980 should be accounted for when adjusting temperature data to find “the real” temperature signal.
F&R fails to do so.
Issue 4: Missing corrections for AMO
AMO appears to affect temperatures in the Arctic and also on large land areas of the NH.

Fig18. In fact, the temperatures of the AMO-affected Arctic is supposed to be an important parameter for global temperature trends, and thus correcting for AMO may be relevant.
The AMO appears to boost temperatures for years 2000-2010 , so any correction of temperatures using AMO would reduce temperature trend after 1980.
F&R do not mention AMO.
Issue 5: F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979
F&R only shows impacts after 1979, possibly due to the limitations of satellite data.

Fig19. “Correcting” Hadcrut data for nino3,4 + volcanoes it turns out that the heat trend from 1950 is reduced around 0,16K or around 25%. Why not show this?
I chose 1950 as staring point because both Nina3,4 and SATO volcano index begins in 1950.
Conclusion
F&R appear seems to assume that temperature impacts on Earth only has impact while occurring, not after. If you heat up a glass of water, the heat wont go away instantly after removing the heat source, so to assume this for this Earth would need some documentation.
Only “correcting” for the instant fraction of a temperature impact and not impacts after ended impact gives a rather complex dataset with significant random appearing errors and thus, the resulting F&R “adjusted data” for temperatures appears useless. At least until the long term effect of temperature changes has been established in a robust manner.
Further, it seems that the PDO, Nin3,4 and Solar activities are related, and just by using the simplest mathematics (done to PDO) these can explain recent development in temperatures on Earth. The argument that “CO2 is needed to explain recent temperature trends” appears to be flat wrong.
Thus “correcting” for PDO/Nina3,4 long term effect might remove heat trend of temperature data all together.
Solar activity is shown to be an important driver PDO/Nino3,4 and thus climate.
Finally, can we then use temperature data without the above adjustment types?
Given the complexities involved with such adjustments, it is definitely better to accept the actual data than a datasets that appears to be fundamentally flawed.
Should one adjust just for Nino3,4 this lacks long time effects of Nina3,4 and more it does not remove flat trend from the recent decade of Hadcrut temperature data.
Re: various – On using TSI as a representative for solar activity:
If UV, magnetic field, cosmic ray impacts, etc. are correlated with sunspots and/or TSI (whether positively or negatively), multiple regression of the various components will show the time-correlations thereof. If changes such as these are driving the climate, some statistically significant correlation should be determinable. I’ll note that in Foster and Rahmstorf 2011:
“To test whether the results might be sensitive to these choices, we also did experiments characterizing el Ni˜no by the southern oscillation index (SOI) rather than MEI, characterizing volcanic aerosols by the volcanic forcing estimate of Ammann et al (2003) rather than the AOD data from Sato et al, and using monthly sunspot numbers as a proxy for solar activity rather than TSI. None of these substitutions affected the results in a significant way, establishing that this analysis is robust to the choice of data to represent exogenous factors.”
For this type of multiple regression sign does not matter, just matching + or – correlated changes over time.
Now, if (for example) UV or cosmic ray influence is not time-correlated with the sun-spot cycle, it would be well worth running this experiment with indexes for those. I believe Tamino is providing his R code and data – by all means go to it, and please let everyone know what the statistical significance is.
—
Engelbeen – “…pure TSI as forcing neglects the differences between the different forcings.”
Given that this is a correlation analysis, not modeled effects based upon some a priori value of forcing efficacy (as per http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch2s2-8-5.html, for example), the strength of the correlations should give the efficacies. So it’s not neglecting the differences, but rather helping establish just what those differences are.
KR says:
December 18, 2011 at 1:22 pm
the strength of the correlations should give the efficacies. So it’s not neglecting the differences, but rather helping establish just what those differences are.
The problem of these efficacies is that all are based on the results of models. Hansen e.a. found an efficacy of 0.9 for solar (compared to CO2), but if you look at the Stott e.a. paper I refered to, that could be as high as 2.0 for the HadCM3 model (at the cost of the efficacy of CO2 itself: down to 0.8 in that case). That is within the constraints of the HadCM3 model, like in the case of the testruns with a fixed influence of human aerosols. If you let that loose, then solar even might be more important.
The influence of aerosols (and clouds) are most problematic in current models, besides internal variability (like ENSO, PDO, NAO, AO,…). One can halve the influence of CO2 from 3.0°C/2xCO2 to 1.5°C/2xCO2 simply by reducing the uncertain influence of human aerosols ( (even the sign of the “cooling” may be wrong, as the influence of black/brown aerosols may be more important). See:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/oxford.html
In both cases, the fit over the past century is as good. but the projections over this century change tremendously:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/oxford_2100.jpg
Good! This will shut them up.
Terry Oldberg says:
December 18, 2011 at 1:13 pm
“In their paper, Foster and Rahmstorf reveal either a lack of understanding of or a distain for the scientific method of inquiry by presenting models that are neither statistically validated nor susceptible to statistical validation. Models of this kind lie outside science.”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/17/frank-lansner-on-foster-and-rahmstorf-2011/#comment-836134
F&R are right. You should not apply statistics to computer model runs that are just behaving as they are programmed to behave. It is hard to calculate confidence intervals based on confidence intervals of the observations of the input data and parameters. In theory you could try with Monte Carlo methods and running large number of runs, but you still have large aggregated computing errors due to lack of precision.
crosspatch says: “…but I am having a bit of a chicken-egg issue. It is the ENSO / PDO connection that is giving me fits. Does one cause the other? If so, which one activates the other.”
The PDO lags ENSO according to the paper Zhang et al (1997), which was the first one to use Principal Component Analysis to pull the PDO out of the North Pacific SST data. In Zhang et al (1997), the PDO is known as NP.
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~david/zwb1997.pdf
And in Newman et al (2004) found the PDO lags ENSO:
http://courses.washington.edu/pcc587/readings/newman2003.pdf
Also, the first sentence of the Conclusions of Newman et al (2004) reads, “The PDO is dependent upon ENSO on all timescales.”
And here’s a graph I created just in case Frank Lansner wants to continue arguing about the PDO. It includes the First Principal Component of detrended North Pacific SST anomalies, which is basically the PDO, and it includes the First Principal Component of detrended NINO3.4 SST anomalies. But in it, I have not standardized the data. The PDO isn’t even close.
http://i42.tinypic.com/10wtp2f.jpg
I was thinking of writing another post about the PDO, with just that graph. Please let me know if that helped put things in perspective.
Perhaps a better way of saying what I tried to say earlier in the thread:
Crosspatch (Dec. 18, 2011 at 2:08 pm):
Thanks for understanding! To expand upon this topic, authors on all sides of the controversy over AGW are guilty of the same offense as Foster and Rahmstorf.
Over a period of 13 years, my job was to design and manage scientific inquiries. Absent the description of a statistical population, an inquiry did not merit the descriptor “scientific” for without description of the population none of the models that came out of this inquiry would be susceptible to being statistically validated. Thus, in the design of an inquiry, the first order of business was to describe the statistical population. However, after the expenditure of US$100 billion on their inquiry into AGW, climatologists have yet to identify this population! The climatologists of the IPCC express a high level of confidence in CAGW though the only basis for establishing confidence would be a sizeable sampling of observed events drawn from the inquiry’s statistical population and in the 2007 report of Working Group I, these climatologists describe no such population!
Yes, thank you. So now it seems obvious to me that PDO and ENSO seem to be reflections of trade wind behavior. In the Bush, Philander paper I referenced earlier, they seem to show evidence if increased trades during the LGM pushing the “cold tongue” much farther West and cooling the equatorial Pacific (which, by the way, probably resulted in a moderation of temperatures in the Indian Ocean to something warmer than they might have otherwise been). Now the question is “what drives the trades?”.
Maybe there’s a clue in here, someplace:
http://www.john-daly.com/sun-enso/sun-enso.htm
which I will read after I play some catch with my boy.
Oops, that reference to Bush/Philander 1999 was in another thread. This is the paper I was referring to:
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/bibliography/related_files/bush9901.pdf
I got my threads mixed up. That’s probably because I see a tie-in to both of them where you have circulations in wind that may well be driven by changes in solar activity / insolation / clouds / etc. and these, in turn, cause sea surface changes which then, in turn, change precipitation and temperatures in other areas of the globe. Tropical continental regions probably saw the LGM manifest as a major change in precipitation with little noticeable change in temperatures, or not enough change in temperature to impact the local fauna/flora but changes in rainfall and even in CO2 levels (mix of C3/C4 plants) might have had a bigger change. In the higher latitudes, a slight change in wind or ocean circulation can have a huge impact. This would be particularly so in regions that rely on these things to moderate what would otherwise be a pretty cold location.
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
December 18, 2011 at 1:56 pm
The problem of these efficacies is that all are based on the results of models.
Only partly true. It was true for the Stott e.a. test with 10 x solar and 5 x volcanic, which allowed them to have a better look at the correlations with the temperature data. But as they said, that is clear in the first halve of the previous century, where solar is the main driver, but for the second halve, one may have an offset between solar and CO2, as the first remains high and the other increases. And as I showed, there is a huge offset between the effect of aerosols and CO2, without changing the overall correlation that much. Both the Stott e.a. HadCM3 runs and the EBM program I used take heat accumulation in the oceans into account, which causes a more gradual warming/cooling for a sustained change in forcing.
My impression is that F&R did only look at the direct correlation with solar forcing without taking into account the effect of heat accumulation in the oceans…
Engelbeen, you write:
“My impression is that F&R did only look at the direct correlation with solar forcing without taking into account the effect of heat accumulation in the oceans…”
-exactly, thats “issue 1” / could not agree more.
K.R. Frank
M.A.Vukcevic says:”It would be wrong to conclude that the solar influence on the land temperature always changes in synch with the sunspot record, as this 300 year record shows:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SLT.htm”
That was not the topic of discussion.
davidmhoffer says: “Suppose for a moment that TSI was 30 watts SW and 70 watts LW and then a year later it was 40 watts SW and 60 watts LW. The “TSI” would be constant at 100 watts, but the difference in the way energy from the sun interacted with the climate of earth would be substantively different.”
davidmhoffer, do you have data to support you supposition?
Gah! Wriggly lines again. I’m sure they are bad for the environment.
We’re doomed.
(Does multi-modal mean some sort of sound and light display?)
Hi Dr.Lansner
Annual data I plotted in this graph
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/PDO.htm
either de-trended or difference calculated (delta PDOdriver/delta time interval) give a signal which looks convincing and it has physical mechanism, which appears to shuffle heat around pacific, with Kuroshio current being main ‘agent’ of activity.
http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/pdo_warm_cool3.jpg
crosspatch:
As far as I can see it, it is difficult to dis-untangle the ENSO and the PDO which on annual bases appear to be strongly correlated, but in the long term the ENSO has its own local driver, the Equatorial currents circulation regulator, which again appears to be independent of the solar input http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SOI.htm
Two are interlinked, but since heat comes from the equator and is moved across Pacific either equatorially or pole-ward, then the ENSO has to be principal player, while two drivers as shown in my links act in a push-pull arrangement resulting in the Pacific oscillations as we know them.
I am currently extensively into the North Atlantic, and once that is done, I will write a bit more about Pacific, but principle is the same. One huge difference is that the N.A. has continuous heat exchange with the Arctic ocean, cause of the N.A. SST oscillations –the AMO, which does not happen in the Pacific, further more very strong circumpolar current tends to isolate Antarctica from the Pacific heat loss, thus making Antarctica less volatile than the Arctic.
Solar input is esential, since it provides not only heat energy, but powers huge Pacific currents, but solar cycle modulation as such, I would assume is not strong enough to cause such powerful oscillations.
Many may disagree with the above assertions, but those are conclusions I came to on the bases of the available data; to underline the point, the data comes first, and any hypothesis has to concur.
The term “correction” seems to dominate much of the writings, diagrams and comments we’re looking at here. As someone who routinely downloads published data and then analyses them (not going into detail about this here) I want to know /exactly/ how one transforms Nino 3-4, or PDO values, or SSN or in fact /any/ other type of observation into a temperature correction (units are presumably degrees C) which is not necessarily the unit in which the correction data were measured and/or published. Am I being dreadfully thick about this? If so please put it down to pre-Christmas fare and liquids! I do want to be absolutely clear about this so that I can follow a sensible route through the analyses.
Currently I am involved in an exchange of emails with the British Met Office regarding their graphical interpretation of the HadCrut3 data over the last 30 years or so. Their “smoothed” plot shows very rapid warming right up to its conclusion, whilst the individual year data – which they also show – are obviously stationary. This is readily confirmed by doing the stats of course. They say that their 21 point Gaussian smooth is what they believe in, and this is what comes out. I have asked whether it is a method chosen to show that warming is still occuring. They say “No”. Shall have another try after the holidays!
I think that the idea behind the original paper is a useful one, and one that does deserve more attention, and more considered thought, and not simple dismissal.
Attributing temperature changes over the last century to man made vs natural causes is to me a vital part of the whole discussion.
Unfortunately, in many regards there is a paucity of good raw data, and when there are cycles that such as the PDO that run for 60 years or so, it is clear to me that analysis needs to go back to at least the start of the 20th century, but the data is not always there. My main concern with the original paper that it is over too short a period to shed any new light on the question. The paper deals pretty much with a time period where the PDO is in one state, and if it had included the fairly widely accepted term of log (P/P0) for CO2, rather than the time based coefficient, I think it would have been more instructive.
I really wish that we had a better understanding of the PDO and ENSO, and what triggers the changes and determines the cycle length. It is clear these associate with weather, but are these drivers, or are we merely measuring a response, or is it a response to a response. i.e. sun warms ocean, ocean currents change, weather changes? I feel that until we can reliably predict these cycles, and we can ‘weather forecast’ the sun, we really can’t say anything about the future climate, or how CO2 or other potential man made climate change factores fit into the picture. These are important questions, and we risk wasting trillions of dollars, and so lower living standards if we make bad choices.
I worry that the “science is settled”, together with the GFC will see a reduction in basic measurements such as satellite temperature measurements (land, sea and atmosphere), the argo robots, and cloud cover and the type of cloud cover. Cloud cover is the perfect example where key raw data is virtually unavailable for long enough to tell us anything very useful. Good science can only be done with good measurements, and I fear that we are entering a period where the records will now start to diminish, rather than improve, all because the “science is settled”.
Anyway, I hope this type of research continues, over more useful time periods, including more parameters, and using more fundamental measurements. Lack of consistent, reliable and continuous data will be a significant stumbling block.
Frank Lansner writes: “I dont think that the strong connection between PDO and climate trends are dependant on PDO being a SST variable. Why do you think that?”
Frank, over decadal time spans, the PDO is inversely related to the Sea Surface Temperature of the North Pacific North of 20N.
http://i52.tinypic.com/15oz3eo.jpg
And that means, if the PDO is rising, then the North Pacific Sea Surface Temperatures are falling, and since the North Pacific is included in the calculation of Global Surface Temperature, it means that the contribution of the North Pacific to Global surface temperatures has decreased.
And that further means your continued belief in the PDO is unfounded. And that’s all you’ve got is a belief. You have not shown any mechanism through which the PDO could raise and lower global temperatures; you’ve only expressed belief.
Frank Lansner says: “In my writing i show data strongly suggesting that PDO eventually is Solar driven.”
What part of your post and which illustration show this? I cannot find anything you’ve written or any graph that strongly suggests that the PDO is Solar driven.
Frank Lansner says: “Bob: The parrallel well timed switches of climate trends and PDO, do you think that happens randomly?”
No. You obviously failed to read and understand my earlier reply to you. The PDO and Global Surface Temperatures are both responding to ENSO. ENSO drives the PDO and ENSO drives Global Surface Temperatures. There is no mechanism for the PDO to drive surface temperature, but with ENSO there is. Why are you having such a hard time understanding something so basic?
Frank Lansner says: “I have never heard a sceptic speak against the important role of PDO like this before , but ok, I dont read all.”
I have been writing posts about the PDO for years. Those posts discuss what the PDO represents and what it does not represent. Many of those posts have been cross posted here at WUWT. There is no important role played by the PDO. It is an unfounded assumption created by those who do not understand the PDO. And it is prolonged by people who want to believe in the PDO, like you.
Frank Lansner says: “In this writing from Svensmark and colleagues from DANISH tech univ 😉 they show the relationships I mentioned.”
Your link to Svensmark et al paper is password protected. That does not help anyone who is trying to follow your comment. Try another link please.
Your Kristjansson paper is no longer supported by the ISCCP low cloud amount data. I referred you to a comparison graph of the more up-to-date version of the cloud cover data in an earlier comment. Here it is again:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2hfq5fp.jpg
You can download the data from the KNMI Climate Explorer and attempt to prove your point, but the data will not agree with you.
Bob Tisdale says:
December 18, 2011 at 3:05 pm
davidmhoffer says: “Suppose for a moment that TSI was 30 watts SW and 70 watts LW and then a year later it was 40 watts SW and 60 watts LW. The “TSI” would be constant at 100 watts, but the difference in the way energy from the sun interacted with the climate of earth would be substantively different.”
davidmhoffer, do you have data to support you supposition?>>>
Yes. Any textbook on radiative physics ought to have plenty of references. In fact, the entire field of AGW theory rests on the DIFFERENCE between how CO2 interacts with SW versus LW. If you are suggesting otherwise, may I direct you to Mssrs Stefan, Boltzmann and Planck. You may as well have just asked for references that prove calculus is real.
Lansner’s critiques of Foster & Rahmstorf 2011 from other other bloggers:
1. Lansner dislikes the use of MEI to represent ENSO & TSI to represent solar variation instead plumping for SOI & SSN respectfully.
2. Lansner duplicates the F&R 2011 results graphing the underlying temperature trend, this is despite his solar having twice the effect & his ENSO nigh-on zero effect! [IMPOSSIBLE in real world situations. Bears no resemblance to reality]
3. Lansner raises these questionable objections. The impact of ENSO (that had no effect in his analysis) is now wrong and invalidates the F&R 2011 study. So now we stand on his quicksand muddled viewpoint with the laws of physics changed. Folks in this world view – gravity would not work!
4. The correction for the all-important PDO which is the cause of the 1979-2000 warming? Now this is where muddled calculations go from bad to worse. The warming Lansner had graphed 2000-10 earlier now disappears!
5. Lansner fits a PDO-generated curve slap onto the underlying temperature trend (now missing the ENSO correction that had no effect – tsk tsk laws of physics broken right HERE,
6. This now demonstrates the process that the PDO is now driven by SSN! IMPOSSIBLE! For those who do not understand the science should go back to reading at this point least the laws of gravity are now changed forever and Galileo’s observations were wrong and bad science becomes good science. White is now black and black is now white.
7. Did F&R 2011 ignore anthropogenic aerosols (a man-made forcing)? Are they not very significant to temperature? It really begs the question?
8. Choose the historic drop out of certain data that becomes unknown or uncertain. Criticise one whilst not the other. (This is about before 1979 (before the TSI data began), F&R 2011 totally ignored YET Lansner stops at 1950 where he too runs out of data.
9. Lansner then concludes boldly, The idea of CO2 induced warming over the last 30 years is “flat wrong”. .
The true skeptics will also take issue with Lansner. To put it bluntly – are we really doing nothing at all to our climate? And any good common sense man or woman should be careful right here – what do you really want right now? I know – I just want it to all go away. But we all know about causes right or wrong. Some will always push wheel barrows up hill despite all the evidence that you do not need to do that any more! It’s begun and there is nothing you can do about it.
davidmhoffer says: “Yes. Any textbook on radiative physics ought to have plenty of references.”
Let me rephrase my question as it relates to my statement to Frank Lansner that you commented on, to TSI, and to your supposition. Over the course of a solar cycle, do longwave and shortwave radiation run in synch with TSI? Keep in mind that the basis for my argument with Frank was that he said TSI was a poor proxy for solar variability but that sunspots were okay, even though.they vary in unison and have a correlation coefficient of 0.96. Then he went off on some tangent for misdirection.
Just piping in on PDO: RTFW (read the ******* wiki).
“The prevailing hypothesis is that the PDO is caused by a “reddening” of ENSO combined with stochastic atmospheric forcing.[2]”
Lucy Skywalker: Thanks for the link. It still does not justify Frank’s statement that cloud cover data makes a better solar proxy than TSI, which is how this conversation started.
Everyone should understand that one can use this methodology (not Tamino’s bias-selected one but the basic principle) and provide a very good reconstruction of global temperatures.
Some of us were doing this kind of reconstruction long ago. Now even Tamino and the UK Met Office are doing the same.
Let’s just get it right and answer the BIG QUESTION (because that is what this it is all about), how much does GHG/CO2 increases ACTUALLY increase temperatures. Pick your choice – rely on climate models or rely on the real actual earth climate.
Bob Tisdale says:
December 18, 2011 at 5:05 pm
davidmhoffer says: “Yes. Any textbook on radiative physics ought to have plenty of references.”
Let me rephrase my question as it relates to my statement to Frank Lansner that you commented on, to TSI, and to your supposition. Over the course of a solar cycle, do longwave and shortwave radiation run in synch with TSI?>>>
No, they do not. Itz been a while since I read papers on the subject, so sorry, but I don’t have links handy. That said, sunspots are in general cooler than the rest of the surface of the sun, yet large numbers of sunspots are associated with a slightly higher TSI. How can that be?
The answer is that while the sunspot itself is cooler than average, the “rim” of the sunspot is much much hotter. The resulting average results in a slightly elevated TSI. However, the sunspots themselves are cooler, and hence emitting at a longer wavelength, and the rims of the sunspots are emitting at a shorter wavelength. The mix of wavelengths follows the sunspot cycle very closely with the amount of SW increasing pretty much in synch. Since SW penetrates the ocean easily while LW doesn’t, high sunspot counts would clearly result in higher Ocean Heat Content.
In fact, if one considers the Argo buoy data, the decline in OHC follows the decline in sunspot activity. I believe I’ve seen papers as well detrending SST and the match to sunspots ive startling, but again, that’s going from memory and I’d have to go hunting for the specific papers.
No, they do not. >>>
To be more clear…
The shortest wavelengths such as UV increase, the longer wavelengths also increase, and the range in the middle decreases. The result is that none of these ranges follow TSI because the average of all them tends to cancel each other out. But with a highly active sun with large numbers of sunspots, while TSI may be only slightly elevated, the mix of high, mid and low frequency emissions changes out of proportion to the change in TSI itself.
Hence my comment regarding 40w SW 60 w LW being the same “average” as 30 and 70, but completely different effects. Are those the right ratios? I doubt it. I chose the numbers for illustrative purposes.