This is a repost from Lansner’s website, since Tamino aka Grant Foster won’t allow it to be discussed on his own website, I thought I’d give a forum for discussion here. – Anthony
| The real temperature trend given by Foster and Rahmstorf 2011? |
| Posted by Frank Lansner (frank) on 17th December, 2011 |
(whoops, I’m not allowed to link to this article at Taminos site… I’ve never written on Taminos site, but he seems to know not to let me write – Frank)

Fig1. Foster and Rahmstorf recently released a writing on ”The real global warming signal”.
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-real-global-warming-signal/ The point from F&R is, I believe, debating to counter the “sceptic” argument that temperatures has stagnated during the last decade or more. Since this is an essential issue in the climate debate I decided to investigate if F&R did a sensible calculation using relevant parameters.
Hadcrut global temperatures do have a rather flat trend these days:

Fig2. It is possible to go back to 1 may 1997 and still see flat trend for Hadcrut temperature data, so this data set will be subject for this writing:
Can F&R´s arguments and calculations actually induce a significant warm trend even to Hadcrut 1998-2011?
F&R use three parameters for their corrections, ENSO, AOD (volcanic atmospheric dimming) and TSI (Total Solar Irradiation).
“Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.
More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.

Fig3. FF&R has chosen MEI to represent EL Nino and La Nina impacts on global temperatures. MEI is the “raw” Nina3,4 SST that directly represents the EL Nino and La Nina, but in the MEI index, also SOI is implemented. To chose the most suited parameter I have compared NOAA´s ONI which is only Nina3.4 index and MEI to temperature graphs to evaluate which to prefer.
Both Hadcrut and RSS has a slightly better match with the pure Nina 3,4 ONI index which will therefore be used in the following. (Both sets was moved 3mth to achieve best it with temperature variations).

Fig4.
After correcting for Nina3,4 index (El Nino + La Nina) there is still hardly any trend in Hadcrut data 1998-2011. (If MEI is chosen, this results in a slight warming trend of approx 0,07 K/decade for the corrected Hadcrut data 1998-2011).

Fig5. I then scaled to best fit for SATO volcano data set. For the years after 1998, there is not really any impact from volcanoes, and thus we can say:
There is no heat trend in Hadcrut data after 1998 even when corrected for EL Nino/La Nina and volcanoes.
However, this changes when inducing Solar activity, I chose Sun Spot Number, SSN, to represent the Solar activity:

Fig6.
To best estimate the scaling of SSN I detrended the Nino3,4 and volcano corrected Hadcrut data and scaled SSN to best fit. Unlike F&R, I get the variation of SSN to equal 0,2K, not 0,1 K as F&R shows.
Now see what happens:

Fig7.
F&R describes the Solar activity (“TSI” as they write…) to be of smallest importance in their calculations. However, it is only the Solar activity, SSN, that ends up making even the Hadcrut years after 1998 show a warm trend when corrected. On Fig7 I have plotted the yearly results by F&R for Hadcrut and they are nearly identical to my results.
So, a smaller warming from my using Nino 3,4 combined with the larger impact of Solar activity I find cancels out each other.
ISSUES
For now it has been evaluated what F&R has done, now lets consider issues:
1) F&R assume that temperature change from for exaple El Nino or period of raised Solar activity etc. will dissapear fully immidiately after such an event ends. F&R assumes that heat does not accumulate from one temperature event to the next.
2) Missing corrections for PDO
3) Missing corrections for human aerosols – (supposed to be important)
4) Missing corrections for AMO
5) F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979
Issue 1: F&R assume that all effect from a shorter warming or cooling period is totally gone after the effect is gone.
Fundamentally, the F&R approach demands that all effects of the three parameters they use for corrections only have here-and-now effects.
Example:

Fig8.
In the above approaches, the Nino3,4 peaks are removed by assuming that all effects from for example a short intense heat effect can be removed by removing heat only when the heating effect occurs, but not removing any heat after the effect it self has ended.
Now, to examine this approach I compare 2 datasets. A) Hadcrut temperatures, “corrected” for Nina3,4 , volcanoes and SSN effects as shown in the above – detrended. B) The Nino3,4 index indicating El Ninos/La Ninas and thus the timing of adjustments. (We remember, that the Nino3,4 was moved 3 months to fit temperature data before adjusting):

Fig9.
After for example “removing” heat caused by El Ninas during the specific El Nino periods, you see heat peaks 1 – 2 years later in the “Nino3,4” corrected detrended temperature data.
That is: After red peaks you see black peaks..
This means that the approach of systematically only removing heat when heat effect is occurring is fundamentally wrong.
Wrong to what extent? Typically, the heat not removed by correcting for Nina3,4 shows 1-2 years later than the heat effect. Could this have impact on decadal temperature trends?
Maybe so: In most cases of El Nino peaks, first we have the Nino3,4 red peak, then 1-2 years after the remaining black peak in temperature data that then dives. But notice that normally the dives in remaining heat (black) normally occurs when dives in the red Nino3,4 index starts.
This suggests, that the remaining heat from an El Nino peak is not fast disappearing by itself, but rather, is removed when colder Nino3,4 conditions induces a cold effect.
In general, we are working with noisy volcano and SSN corrected data, so to any conclusion there will be some situations where the “normal” observations is not seen strongly.
Now, what happens is we focus on periods where the Nino3,4 index for longer periods than 2 years is more neutral – no major peaks?

Fig10.
Now, the detrended Hadcrut temperature “corrected” for Nina3,4, Volcanoes and SSN – black graph – has been 2 years averaged:
The impact of El Ninos and La Ninas is still clearly visible in data supposed to be corrected for these impacts. Since this correction by F&R is their “most important” correction, and it fails, then we can conclude that F&R 2011 is fundamentally flawed and useless.
Reality is complex and F&R has mostly seen the tip of the iceberg, no more.
More: Notice the periods 1976-1981 and 2002-2007. In both cases, we a period of a few years with Nino3,4 index rather neutral. In these cases, the temperature level does not change radically.
In the 1976-81 period, the La Ninas up to 1977 leaves temperatures cold, and they stay cold for years while Nino3,4 remains rather neutral. After the 2002-3 El Nino, Nino3,4 index remains rather neutral, and temperatures simply stays warm.
Issue 2: Missing corrections for PDO
Quite related to the above issue of ignoring long term effects of temperature peaks, we see no mention of the PDO.

Fig11. Don Easterbrook suggests that a general warming occurs when PDO is warm, and a general cooling occurs when PDO is cold. (PDO = Pacific Decadal Oscillation). That is, even though PDO index remains constant but warm, the heat should accumulate over the years rather than be only short term dependent strictly related to the PDO index of a given year. This is in full compliance with the long term effects of temperature peaks shown under issue 1.
Don Easterbrook suggests 0,5K of heating 1979-2000 due the PDO long term heat effect.
I think the principle is correct, I cant know if the 0,5K is correct – it is obviously debated – but certainly, you need to consider the PDO long term effect on temperatures in connection with ANY attempt to correct temperature data. F&R fails to do so, although potentially, PDO heat is suggested to explain all heat trend after 1979.
I would like to analyse temperature data for PDO effect if possible.

Fig12. PDO data taken from http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/PDO.latest
To analyse PDO-effect we have to realise that PDO and Nino3,4 (not surprisingly) have a lot in common. This means, that I cant analyse PDO effects in a dataset “corrected” for Nino3,4 as it would to some degree also be “corrected” for PDO…
More, this strong resemblance between Nino3,4 and PDO has this consequence:
When Don Easterbrook says that PDO has long term effect, he’s also saying that Nino3,4 has long term effects – just as concluded in issue 1.

Fig13. Thus, I am working with PDO signal compared to Hadcrut temperatures corrected for volcanoes and SSN only. The general idea that heat can be accumulated from one period to the next (long term effects) is clearly supported in this compare. If PDO heat (like any heat!) can be expected to be accumulated, then we can se for each larger PDO-heat-peak temperatures on Earth rises to a steady higher level.

Fig14. Note: in the early 1960´ies, the correction of volcano Agung is highly questionably because different sources of data concerning the effect of Agung are not at all in agreement. Most likely I have over-adjusted for cooling effect of Agung. On the above graph from Mauna Loa it appears that hardly any adjustment should be done…
Scientists often claim that we HAVE to induce CO2 in models to explain the heat trend. Here we have heat trends corrected for volcanoes and SSN, now watch how much math it takes to explain temperature rise after 1980 using PDO:

Fig15. “Math” to explain temperature trend using PDO. Due to the uncertainty on data around 1960 (Agung + mismatch with RUTI world index/unadjusted GHCN) I have made a curve beginning before and after 1960. For each month I add a fraction of the PDO signal to the temperature of last month, that is, I assume that heat created last month “wont go away” by itself, but is regulated by impacts of present month. This approach is likely not perfect either but it shows how easy temperature trends can be explained if you accept PDO influence globally.
(In addition I made some other scenarios where temperatures would seek zero to some degree, and also where I used square root on PDO input which may work slightly better, square root to boost smaller changes near zero PDO).
Now, how can PDO all by itself impact a long steady heat on Earth?? Does heat come from deep ocean or??

Fig16. It goes without saying that SSN and PDO (and thus Nina3,4 as shown) are related.
Is it likely that PDO affects Sun Spot Numbers? No, so we can conclude that Solar activity drives temperatures PDO which again can explain temperature changes on Earth.
Suddenly this analysis has become more interesting than F&R-evaluation, but this graph also shows that F&R was wrong on yet another point: Notice on the graph that we work the temperatures “CORRECTED” for Solar activity… But AFTER each peak of SSN we see accumulation of heat on earth still there after “correcting” for solar activity. Thus, again, it is fundamentally wrong to assume no long term affects of temperature changes. This time, temperature effect can be seen in many years after the “corrected” Solar activity occurred.
Conclusion: PDO appears Solar driven and can easily explain temperature developments analysed.
Thus perhaps the most important factors to be corrected for – if you want to know about potential Co2 effects – was not corrected for by F&R 2011.
Issue 3: Missing corrections for human aerosols – that are supposed to be important
It is repeatedly claimed by the AGW side in the climate debate that human sulphates / aerosols should explain significant changes in temperatures on earth.
When you read F&R I cant stop wonder: Why don’t they speak about Human aerosols now?

http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/greenhouse/greenhouse_gas.html
Fig17. In basically all sources of sulphur emissions it appears that around 1980-90 these started to decline.
If truly these aerosols explains significant cooling, well, then a reduced cooling agent after 1980 should be accounted for when adjusting temperature data to find “the real” temperature signal.
F&R fails to do so.
Issue 4: Missing corrections for AMO
AMO appears to affect temperatures in the Arctic and also on large land areas of the NH.

Fig18. In fact, the temperatures of the AMO-affected Arctic is supposed to be an important parameter for global temperature trends, and thus correcting for AMO may be relevant.
The AMO appears to boost temperatures for years 2000-2010 , so any correction of temperatures using AMO would reduce temperature trend after 1980.
F&R do not mention AMO.
Issue 5: F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979
F&R only shows impacts after 1979, possibly due to the limitations of satellite data.

Fig19. “Correcting” Hadcrut data for nino3,4 + volcanoes it turns out that the heat trend from 1950 is reduced around 0,16K or around 25%. Why not show this?
I chose 1950 as staring point because both Nina3,4 and SATO volcano index begins in 1950.
Conclusion
F&R appear seems to assume that temperature impacts on Earth only has impact while occurring, not after. If you heat up a glass of water, the heat wont go away instantly after removing the heat source, so to assume this for this Earth would need some documentation.
Only “correcting” for the instant fraction of a temperature impact and not impacts after ended impact gives a rather complex dataset with significant random appearing errors and thus, the resulting F&R “adjusted data” for temperatures appears useless. At least until the long term effect of temperature changes has been established in a robust manner.
Further, it seems that the PDO, Nin3,4 and Solar activities are related, and just by using the simplest mathematics (done to PDO) these can explain recent development in temperatures on Earth. The argument that “CO2 is needed to explain recent temperature trends” appears to be flat wrong.
Thus “correcting” for PDO/Nina3,4 long term effect might remove heat trend of temperature data all together.
Solar activity is shown to be an important driver PDO/Nino3,4 and thus climate.
Finally, can we then use temperature data without the above adjustment types?
Given the complexities involved with such adjustments, it is definitely better to accept the actual data than a datasets that appears to be fundamentally flawed.
Should one adjust just for Nino3,4 this lacks long time effects of Nina3,4 and more it does not remove flat trend from the recent decade of Hadcrut temperature data.
Frank Lansner: A closing thought, a suggestion. As discussed, there is no mechanism through which the PDO can vary global surface temperature. You still don’t want to accept that, but the PDO is basically an aftereffect of ENSO. The warming or cooling in the eastern North Pacific is a response to the El Niño or La Niña events, as is the opposing cooling or warming in the west and central North Pacific. The only reason those patterns have different time periods is because the North Pacific Sea Level Pressure impacts how long the “ENSO-like pattern” persists in the SST anomalies there.
And now to my suggestion, instead of using the PDO in your “simple PDO-estimated temperature”, use the following NINO3.4 data. It will provide a much better fit with global surface temperatures from 1910 to 2007 with the right scaling factor:
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/catalog/climind/TNI_N34/index.html#Sec5
If you want to add the the more current data after 2007, Trenberth and Stepaniak used HADISST NINO3.4 data until 1981 and Reynolds OI.v2 SST data afterwards, and they used 1950-79 as the base years.
Then the work starts. Then you have to explain how and why that works.
Enjoy your holidays.
M.A.Vukcevic
You write:
“Dr. Lansner
Thanks for the new graph, since the first one you referred to as a reply to my post, wasn’t very clear. However despite new clarity there is no visually observed correlation of any significance.
Here I show the same principle applied to the North Atlantic, North and Equatorial Pacific and found following:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AP.htm ”
I love this “Dr Lansner” 🙂 keep it up! No, im a full time software programmer for Novo Nordic where I started out makeing programs using parameters as Oxygen, pH, sugar contents, CO2 , temperature etcetc. to control when to give “food”, how to change temperature etc.
This because im a Chemical civil eng. From Danish Tech Univ of education.
I really enjoy your graphs, but could you help me a little? I think you have probably given links earlier, but i would like to know the nature of the graphs, can you give me a link to that?
Then, the new graph of mine:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/PDOSSN.jpg
Challenges are huge in terms of natures complexity and even quality of some of the data sources used (Hadcrut). Im not saying -at all – that Sun is the only driver in connection with PDO. And also, perhaps Magnetic field do a better job, I have to investigate that.
The well known “climate shift” in 1978 when we went from cold PDO to warm PDO seems initiated not by the Sun (SSN).
BUT!
As highlighted here
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/PDOSSN2.jpg
there is a pattern of larger Solar peaks boosting the PDO index – or so it seems.
YES, there is a phase “mismatch” ot you could say that the response in PDO from the great Pacific ocean takes time, true.
But does this make the pattern go away?? No, obviously not.
At least, to claim out of the blue like Bob do that there is no connection! Period! .. this has NOTHING to do with real science. You HAVE to stop and wonder when you see patterns between SSN, PDO and temperatures. Bobs bold claims that he “knows” all this is a coincidence has nothing to do with science – even though we have later phase in PDO than SSN!!! Patterns like these certainly do NOT appear like random noise, obviously.
In the next link here:
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/PDOSSN3.jpg
I have used a thick black line to show what appears to be the part of PDO that is not Solar related, at least not directly. Its seems that the Pacific itself has oscillations. Surprising? No , not at all.
Hi Bob, I just see your last comment now, thankyou very much, enjoy your holidays too!
K.R. Frank
Bob Tisdale – “With respect to solar, Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) assume a 0-month lag and use regression analysis to extract a solar signal from the global temperature data. This might be applicable for land surface temperature data and for TLT over land, but it does not address the thermal lag of the oceans.” (emphasis added)
Actually, F&R tested all lag values from 0 to 24 months, and reported the values that gave the best correlations. Claiming that they “assumed” a value is quite incorrect, as even a cursory read of the paper shows.
KR says: “Actually, F&R tested all lag values from 0 to 24 months, and reported the values that gave the best correlations. Claiming that they “assumed” a value is quite incorrect, as even a cursory read of the paper shows.”
I did read the paper. Regardless of whether the tested 0 to 24 months, the assumption is the lag of the Sea Surface Temperature in response to variations in Solar fall into that range. But since you don’t like assume, I’ll revise my comment to read:
With respect to solar, Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) used a 0-month lag and use regression analysis to extract a solar signal from the global temperature data. This might be applicable for land surface temperature data and for TLT over land, but it does not address the thermal lag of the oceans. The lag has been studied for decades and the debate about lags still rages on, with estimates ranging from months to decades. Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) clearly overlook this in their paper.
And if you like, I’ll ammend the last sentence to read, Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) clearly overlook this in their paper by limiting their investigation of lags to 0 to 24 months.
Hows that?
Bob Tisdale says: December 20, 2011 at 2:44 am
Ammonite: … F&R provides a falsifiable mechanism against which to test the AGW hypothesis.”
Bob Tisdale: Actually F&R (2011) does not have merit, it is not a reasonable approach, and it cannot be used as a test of the hypothesis of AGW.
Seasons greetings Bob. Your principle disagreement appears to be that ENSO indices do not adequately represent ENSO. That’s your area of expertise and certainly not mine. Maybe data mining or dumb luck caused all 5 F&R derived series to end up with the same degree of linearity and slope, but I’m betting it represents the transient response of longer term climate signals. Ten years, +0.16C and a free set of steak knives 🙂 We’ll see how it turns out.
Carlo Napolitano says: December 18, 2011 at 9:28 am
The visual inspection of the F&R figure depicting the rate (C/decade) of the analyzed datasets one thing appears absolutely clear… This relates to the huge error bars particularly after 1998.
Hi Carlo. The error bars relate to the trend estimate from the date in question to then end of the data series. So, for 1998 there are 13 (or so) points left with which to form a trend estimate and this is less certain than forming the same estimate from 1990 (for example). As the number of data points remaining decreases the error bars necessarily increase. This is not an indication of a problem with the F&R process.
It is impossible to remove ENSO from global data using only this region the indicies is derived from. Even if you used the surface SST’s instead for this region. It is like subtracting the temperature change of an area the size of UK from the global temperature and saying this has corrected global temperatures removing the UK. Energy moves around the world and doesn’t stay in one place. To remove ENSO correctly the peaks and troughs from ENSO on global temperatures have to be removed completely. This is so far impossible with no one able to do this yet because for example, removing at the moment/near it occurs just moves it to a later period in the data set. Therefore this demonstrates the ENSO has a ongoing affect years later. I have tried this before and got the same results.
Matt G, you write:
“Therefore this demonstrates the ENSO has a ongoing affect years later. I have tried this before and got the same results.”
Hi Matt! Im happy that you put your finger right on the most important spot, happy that this message comes through. And im sure I am FAR from the first person to get the idea, that heat accumulates. it is not removed the instance you remove the heatsource – also when it comes to the Earth.
K.R. Frank
Ammonite (December 19, 2011 at 8:38 pm):
When you say that the F&R paper ( http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/6/4/044022/pdf/1748-9326_6_4_044022.pdf ) “provides a falsifiable mechanism against which to test the AGW hypothesis,” I don’t believe you are correct. Falsifiability implies reference by the paper to a description of the complete set of statistical events whose outcomes shall be compared against the predicted outcomes in testing the hypothesis but I don’t find such a reference in the paper. If there is such a reference, please provide a quote.
Hi all..
Checkout this full temperature reconstruction from 1900 and foreward using only
ONE temperature given as start point, and then either
1) PDO data or
2) Nina3,4 data.
In both cases it appears easy to reconstruct temperatures similar to Hadcrut:
http://hidethedecline.eu/pages/posts/temperature-reconstructions-from-pdo-and-nino34-250.php
K.R. Frank
For the ENSO doubters, check out the Nino 3.4 Index versus Water Vapour levels since 1948.
Water Vapour, of course, is about 75% of the Greenhouse Effect of 20C (taking clouds into account properly).
One cannot conclude anything other than the ENSO runs the climate.
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5716/ensotempsvstcwvnov11.png
Terry Oldberg says: December 20, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Falsifiability implies reference by the paper to a description of the complete set of statistical events whose outcomes shall be compared against the predicted outcomes in testing the hypothesis but I don’t find such a reference in the paper.
Fair call. I am pushing a point. The underlying temperature trend is up, consistent with AGW theory. Given increasing CO2 (and absence of a large change in a known forcing) the trend should continue if CO2 increase is the current dominant climate driver. If the F&R adjusted series fell to 2000 levels (for example) it would constitute strong counter evidence. I won’t be holding my breath.
Hi Bill Illis!
I understand fully your points and the weight of that graph you show. Very intersting, now I know what to fiddle with between Christmas and New year….
Merrry Christmas all!
Bill, what data source did you use for precipitation?
K.R. Frank
Frank Lansner says:
December 21, 2011 at 12:38 am
———–
NCEP Reanalysis – total column water vapour. (25 mms or 1 inch in a given column of atmosphere or 25 kg/m2 – it cycles through the atmosphere 40 times per year or each 9 days).
Some people have problems with the NCEP renalysis dataset because it is not showing the rise in water vapour levels that the theory predicts. They prefer to use the shorter time-lines of other datasets. However, when you match up the different datasets with NCEP, you will find they are almost exactly the same. People are just starting their data in a La Nina and ending in an El Nino and they say “look at rising water vapour trend, not what the NCEP is showing”. But if they took NCEP over the same timeline, it shows exactly the same thing. Over the long-term, there is little trend and the ENSO controls its overall variability.
All climate data and all climate papers need to take into account what the ENSO is doing to their data in the period they are studying. Some would prefer to cherrypick a period that starts in a La Nina and ends in an El Nino without talking about how the ENSO affected that data. Very common actually.
You can get to the data here (site might be down today). Lots of data is available here. Spend some time figuring out how to use it.
http://nomad2.ncep.noaa.gov/ncep_data/index.html
You question the reason that F&R omit recent Sulphur Dioxide emissions and speculate that it is because this would explain recent record temperatures etc, however as Smith et al (2011) – [http://www.atmos-chem-phys.org/11/1101/2011/acp-11-1101-2011.pdf] found, anthropogenic SO2 emissions have risen in the last decade and thus could go some way to explaining your perceived neutral forcing.
Hi Bill, Thankyou very much
WATER is a nuclear bomb for AGW.
The whole feedback theory is based on the idea that there should be more water in the air now, but there is not:
http://hidethedecline.eu/pages/posts/feedback-positive-ndash-rdquowhat-makes-co2-heat-dangerousrdquo-29.php
(I took NOAA data from a WUWT article earlier)
And IF AGWers , the hard core, realy believed in greenhouse a gas disaster around the corner, why don’t we see water-in-the-atmosphere graphs everywhere? When it is much more potent and abundant than CO2?
However, if it’s true that more water in the air comes from heating (sounds fair!) then the missing water obviosuly – just like tree proxies etc. says: This heating is not at all as strong as claimed.
K.R. Frank, and thank you
@Manoffireandlight
Thanks for input!
1) In smiths new 2011 writing he gets an uptik in SO2 emissions around 2002-2005 mainly driven by Chin, but still from around 135 GgSO2 in 1980 down to around 117 in 2005.
2) In fig 8 you see an illustration of Smith 2011 with 12 other studies.Most of these other studies shows stronger decline in SO2 1980-2000 than Smith 2011.
3) For some reason Smith 2011 is the only source for SO2 data after 2000 and after 2005 there is none. This makes data after 2000 dependant solely on Smith 2011 that already shows weaker decline than the other studies.
-> My opinion : I would like to see more studies of data after 2000 before concluding too much.
Even so, there appear to be a “consensus” of a decline 1980-2000 larger than the uptik in Smith 2011 for the years 2002-2005.
YES: Whatever the Truth on SO2 after 1980, I find it dodgy that the AGW side – here F&R – are so “sure” on the So2 effect when it is used to explain cooing 1940-75, and then “forgets” to mention this “large” SO2 effect in a study like F&R 2011.
One can only guess howcome. F&R do not think SO2 is important to explain the 1940-75 cooling?
The Chinese development suggests that SO2 might reach above 1980 level in the future though.
K.R. Frank and thankyou for input.
Bob Tisdale – “Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) used a 0-month lag and use regression analysis … The lag has been studied for decades and the debate about lags still rages on, with estimates ranging from months to decades… Foster and Rahmstorf (2011) clearly overlook this in their paper by limiting their investigation of lags to 0 to 24 months.”
I would rather strongly disagree with what you are apparently implying in that text – F&R found a 0 month lag for satellite temperature records to show the best match, and a 1 (one) month lag for surface temperature records. That was what came out of the data, not out of an assumption on their part.
That said, it is quite reasonable to consider longer lag times. I’ll point out that Tamino has listed the all ‘R’ code and data for the F&R 2011 paper on his blog (http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/15/data-and-code-for-foster-rahmstorf-2011/), and it would therefore be quite straightforward to extend this analysis to longer lag times. The ‘R’ software itself is freely available (http://www.r-project.org/).
I would be very curious to see if you found that there was a significant correlation response to TSI or other of these exogenous influences at lags >24 months, in particular if such correlation was stronger than the 0/1 month TSI lags for the satellite/surface records.
—
I’ll note that (in my personal opinion) F&R 2011 is simply an analysis of whether the major contributions of known, large sources of temperature variability (ENSO, volcanic aerosols, TSI) can be extracted from the temperature record, and how that affects the statistics without those exogenous factors. They certainly don’t claim that those are the only factors influencing temperature – just that they are known major ones. And, given the linear nature of the remainder as shown by the statistics of the residuals, additional influences over that period (such as human aerosols) would have to be (or add up to be) either linear in nature for the last 30 years as well – or very small in effect.
Hi KR
Thankyou for input!
As I read you, you are basically saying that F&R are close to reality so their results can be used with a reasonable confidence?
1) One of the basic problems I see is to what extend heat in oceans is accumulated.
For example, if you remove Nino3,4 (see fig 5) and Volcanoes (SATO) you still have a long flat trend in Hadcrut from around 1999 till today. So its only the timing of SSN that happens to flatten out the trend curve. Thus, things are delicate indeed.
In Fig 16 we see several examples that temperature rises and reaches new higher level around 4-5 years after solar cycle peak. Since SSN alone did the trick of removing the Hadcrut flat trend, a 4-5 years delay in temperature peaks can easily be essential for “flat trend or not” after 1998.
Please if you can look at fig 9 & 10 and the explaining text. There is not that data to conclude if heat is accumulated for long time or not. In far most cases, temperature trends changes when new “stimuli” occurs and muddy the picture. Data vaguely suggests that heat is preserved for many years to a significant degree.
2) IF PDO either to some degree drives temperatures or perhaps a symptom or result of natural occurring temperature changes, then it is very hard to say how much of the warming trend after 1978 is the “normal” warming seen during warm PDO phase in the period.
3) Sulphates: If the AGW side in the debate strongly believes that aerosols is a valid explanation for the long cooling 1940-70, these has to be very potent indeed. Therefore I see no justification for not using up to data Sulphate data in such as F&R. Remember there is supposed to be a large effect of these aerosols already at more moderate changes 1940-50-60.
4) AMO: The Arctic and its Arctic amplification is certainly affect by AMO, and so is large parts of NH land areas, not to mention the north Atlantic itself. This effect is also likely to be on the full 1980-2010 trend.
So IF there is not a significant heat accumulation effect that might itself maintain the flat trens after 1998, and IF it has NO SAY that 1980-2010 occurred during warm PDO, and IF aerosols played a significant role 1940-60 but NOT after 1980, and IF AMO Arctic warming for some reason should not be relevant…. THEN F&R has a point. I find all 4 IF´s here to be unlikely.
But this is speculation to a degree where the F&R results are no more than just results after removing certain short termed influences, and assuming no long term heat accumulation.
Imagine that sceptic writers put out a paper so deeply dependant on such a row of unlikely assumptions.. Im sure AGW would not buy that either.
K.R. Frank
Frank Lansner you say that HadCRUT is flat after 1999 after adjusting for ENSO 3.4
Okay, but don’t you see then if you account for the solar cycle too it won’t be flat anymore? it will be upwards?
That is unless the solar cycle has negliable almost zero contribution to global temperature. Do you really believe that to be the case? Otherwise I don’t understand how you can disagree with Foster’s point that the warming is still ongoing.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s PDO or AMO. The point is it’s still ongoing when ENSO and solar cycle are adjusted out. That means it cannot be argued that the “warming factor” has “stopped since 1999”.
Foster isn’t the only one to find an impact from the solar cycle. Camp and Tung find an impact of the solar cycle of about 0.18C on the surface record, which considering low low and long the recent minimum has been suggests that the sun really could explain why an ongoing warming since 2001 has been negated.
Ultimately though I don’t you agree that the argument that a flat hadcrut since 1999 means CO2 isn’t causing warming depends on assuming zero cooling from the Sun over this period? And that is a very very bad assumption.
I believe that is touching the point F&R were making.
“The impact of El Ninos and La Ninas is still clearly visible in data supposed to be corrected for these impacts. Since this correction by F&R is their “most important” correction, and it fails, then we can conclude that F&R 2011 is fundamentally flawed and useless.”
Useless? No. Even correcting it partially is better than leaving it uncorrected.
(and arguments that warming has stopped because HadCRUT is flat from X are leaving it uncorrected)
nomnom says:
“Even correcting it partially is better than leaving it uncorrected.”
No, it is useless except as warmist propaganda.
Hi Nomnom!
You wonder if I dont see that the change of trend post 1998 is due to Solar cycle (I here use SSN).
In the article and in my comment just above yours
Frank Lansner
December 21, 2011 at 3:17 pm
I write exactly that its only the timing of SSN (Solar cycles) that “does the trick”, removes the flat trend after 1998, and that this shows how “delicate” (vulnerable) this removal of flat trend is to other parameters. And then i comment from this basis further on , so if you could read that comment, and then you are very welcom to ask further questions.
Thankyou for input!
K.R. Frank