Frank Lansner on Foster and Rahmstorf 2011

This is a repost from Lansner’s website, since Tamino aka Grant Foster won’t allow it to be discussed on his own website, I thought I’d give a forum for discussion here. – Anthony

The real temperature trend given by Foster and Rahmstorf 2011?
Posted by Frank Lansner (frank) on 17th December, 2011

(whoops, I’m not allowed to link to this article at Taminos site… I’ve never written on Taminos site, but he seems to know not to let me write – Frank)

Fig1. Foster and Rahmstorf recently released a writing on ”The real global warming signal”.

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-real-global-warming-signal/ The point from F&R is, I believe, debating to counter the “sceptic” argument that temperatures has stagnated during the last decade or more. Since this is an essential issue in the climate debate I decided to investigate if F&R did a sensible calculation using relevant parameters.

Hadcrut global temperatures do have a rather flat trend these days:

Fig2. It is possible to go back to 1 may 1997 and still see flat trend for Hadcrut temperature data, so this data set will be subject for this writing:

Can F&R´s arguments and calculations actually induce a significant warm trend even to Hadcrut 1998-2011?

F&R use three parameters for their corrections, ENSO, AOD (volcanic atmospheric dimming) and TSI (Total Solar Irradiation).

“Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.

More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.

Fig3. FF&R has chosen MEI to represent EL Nino and La Nina impacts on global temperatures. MEI is the “raw” Nina3,4 SST that directly represents the EL Nino and La Nina, but in the MEI index, also SOI is implemented. To chose the most suited parameter I have compared NOAA´s ONI which is only Nina3.4 index and MEI to temperature graphs to evaluate which to prefer.

Both Hadcrut and RSS has a slightly better match with the pure Nina 3,4 ONI index which will therefore be used in the following. (Both sets was moved 3mth to achieve best it with temperature variations).

Fig4.

After correcting for Nina3,4 index (El Nino + La Nina) there is still hardly any trend in Hadcrut data 1998-2011. (If MEI is chosen, this results in a slight warming trend of approx 0,07 K/decade for the corrected Hadcrut data 1998-2011).

Fig5. I then scaled to best fit for SATO volcano data set. For the years after 1998, there is not really any impact from volcanoes, and thus we can say:

There is no heat trend in Hadcrut data after 1998 even when corrected for EL Nino/La Nina and volcanoes.

However, this changes when inducing Solar activity, I chose Sun Spot Number, SSN, to represent the Solar activity:

Fig6.

To best estimate the scaling of SSN I detrended the Nino3,4 and volcano corrected Hadcrut data and scaled SSN to best fit. Unlike F&R, I get the variation of SSN to equal 0,2K, not 0,1 K as F&R shows.

Now see what happens:

Fig7.

F&R describes the Solar activity (“TSI” as they write…) to be of smallest importance in their calculations. However, it is only the Solar activity, SSN, that ends up making even the Hadcrut years after 1998 show a warm trend when corrected. On Fig7 I have plotted the yearly results by F&R for Hadcrut and they are nearly identical to my results.

So, a smaller warming from my using Nino 3,4 combined with the larger impact of Solar activity I find cancels out each other.

ISSUES

For now it has been evaluated what F&R has done, now lets consider issues:

1) F&R assume that temperature change from for exaple El Nino or period of raised Solar activity etc. will dissapear fully immidiately after such an event ends. F&R assumes that heat does not accumulate from one temperature event to the next.

2) Missing corrections for PDO

3) Missing corrections for human aerosols – (supposed to be important)

4) Missing corrections for AMO

5) F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

Issue 1: F&R assume that all effect from a shorter warming or cooling period is totally gone after the effect is gone.

Fundamentally, the F&R approach demands that all effects of the three parameters they use for corrections only have here-and-now effects.

Example:

Fig8.

In the above approaches, the Nino3,4 peaks are removed by assuming that all effects from for example a short intense heat effect can be removed by removing heat only when the heating effect occurs, but not removing any heat after the effect it self has ended.

Now, to examine this approach I compare 2 datasets. A) Hadcrut temperatures, “corrected” for Nina3,4 , volcanoes and SSN effects as shown in the above – detrended. B) The Nino3,4 index indicating El Ninos/La Ninas and thus the timing of adjustments. (We remember, that the Nino3,4 was moved 3 months to fit temperature data before adjusting):

Fig9.

After for example “removing” heat caused by El Ninas during the specific El Nino periods, you see heat peaks 1 – 2 years later in the “Nino3,4” corrected detrended temperature data.

That is: After red peaks you see black peaks..

This means that the approach of systematically only removing heat when heat effect is occurring is fundamentally wrong.

Wrong to what extent? Typically, the heat not removed by correcting for Nina3,4 shows 1-2 years later than the heat effect. Could this have impact on decadal temperature trends?

Maybe so: In most cases of El Nino peaks, first we have the Nino3,4 red peak, then 1-2 years after the remaining black peak in temperature data that then dives. But notice that normally the dives in remaining heat (black) normally occurs when dives in the red Nino3,4 index starts.

This suggests, that the remaining heat from an El Nino peak is not fast disappearing by itself, but rather, is removed when colder Nino3,4 conditions induces a cold effect.

In general, we are working with noisy volcano and SSN corrected data, so to any conclusion there will be some situations where the “normal” observations is not seen strongly.

Now, what happens is we focus on periods where the Nino3,4 index for longer periods than 2 years is more neutral – no major peaks?

Fig10.

Now, the detrended Hadcrut temperature “corrected” for Nina3,4, Volcanoes and SSN –  black graph – has been 2 years averaged:

The impact of El Ninos and La Ninas is still clearly visible in data supposed to be corrected for these impacts. Since this correction by F&R is their “most important” correction, and it fails, then we can conclude that F&R 2011 is fundamentally flawed and useless.

Reality is complex and F&R has mostly seen the tip of the iceberg, no more.

More: Notice the periods 1976-1981 and  2002-2007. In both cases, we a period of a few years with Nino3,4 index rather neutral. In these cases, the temperature level does not change radically.

In the 1976-81 period, the La Ninas up to 1977 leaves temperatures cold, and they stay cold for years while Nino3,4 remains rather neutral. After the 2002-3 El Nino, Nino3,4 index remains rather neutral, and temperatures simply stays warm.

Issue 2: Missing corrections for PDO

Quite related to the above issue of ignoring long term effects of temperature peaks, we see no mention of the PDO.

Fig11. Don Easterbrook suggests that a general warming occurs when PDO is warm, and a general cooling occurs when PDO is cold. (PDO = Pacific Decadal Oscillation). That is, even though PDO index remains constant but warm, the heat should accumulate over the years rather than be only short term dependent strictly related to the PDO index of a given year. This is in full compliance with the long term effects of temperature peaks shown under issue 1.

Don Easterbrook suggests 0,5K of heating 1979-2000 due the PDO long term heat effect.

I think the principle is correct, I cant know if the 0,5K is correct – it is obviously debated – but certainly, you need to consider the PDO long term effect on temperatures in connection with ANY attempt to correct temperature data. F&R fails to do so, although potentially, PDO heat is suggested to explain all heat trend after 1979.

I would like to analyse temperature data for PDO effect if possible.

Fig12. PDO data taken from http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/PDO.latest

To analyse PDO-effect we have to realise that PDO and Nino3,4 (not surprisingly) have a lot in common. This means, that I cant analyse PDO effects in a dataset “corrected” for Nino3,4 as it would to some degree also be “corrected” for PDO…

More, this strong resemblance between Nino3,4 and PDO has this consequence:

When Don Easterbrook says that PDO has long term effect, he’s also saying that Nino3,4 has long term effects – just as concluded in issue 1.

Fig13. Thus, I am working with PDO signal compared to Hadcrut temperatures corrected for volcanoes and SSN only. The general idea that heat can be accumulated from one period to the next (long term effects) is clearly supported in this compare. If PDO heat (like any heat!) can be expected to be accumulated, then we can se for each larger PDO-heat-peak temperatures on Earth rises to a steady higher level.

Fig14. Note: in the early 1960´ies, the correction of volcano Agung is highly questionably because different sources of data concerning the effect of Agung are not at all in agreement. Most likely I have over-adjusted for cooling effect of Agung. On the above graph from Mauna Loa it appears that hardly any adjustment should be done…

Scientists often claim that we HAVE to induce CO2 in models to explain the heat trend. Here we have heat trends corrected for volcanoes and SSN, now watch how much math it takes to explain temperature rise after 1980 using PDO:

Fig15. “Math” to explain temperature trend using PDO. Due to the uncertainty on data around 1960 (Agung + mismatch with RUTI world index/unadjusted GHCN) I have made a curve beginning before and after 1960. For each month I add a fraction of the PDO signal to the temperature of last month, that is, I assume that heat created last month “wont go away” by itself, but is regulated by impacts of present month. This approach is likely not perfect either but it shows how easy temperature trends can be explained if you accept PDO influence globally.

(In addition I made some other scenarios where temperatures would seek zero to some degree, and also where I used square root on PDO input which may work slightly better, square root to boost smaller changes near zero PDO).

Now, how can PDO all by itself impact a long steady heat on Earth?? Does heat come from deep ocean or??

Fig16. It goes without saying that SSN and PDO (and thus Nina3,4 as shown) are related.

Is it likely that PDO affects Sun Spot Numbers? No, so we can conclude that Solar activity drives temperatures PDO which again can explain temperature changes on Earth.

Suddenly this analysis has become more interesting than F&R-evaluation, but this graph also shows that F&R was wrong on yet another point: Notice on the graph that we work the temperatures “CORRECTED” for Solar activity… But AFTER each peak of SSN we see accumulation of heat on earth still there after “correcting” for solar activity. Thus, again, it is fundamentally wrong to assume no long term affects of temperature changes. This time, temperature effect can be seen in many years after the “corrected” Solar activity occurred.

Conclusion: PDO appears Solar driven and can easily explain temperature developments analysed.

Thus perhaps the most important factors to be corrected for – if you want to know about potential Co2 effects – was not corrected for by F&R 2011.

Issue 3: Missing corrections for human aerosols – that are supposed to be important

It is repeatedly claimed by the AGW side in the climate debate that human sulphates / aerosols should explain significant changes in temperatures on earth.

When you read F&R I cant stop wonder: Why don’t they speak about Human aerosols now?

http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/greenhouse/greenhouse_gas.html

Fig17. In basically all sources of sulphur emissions it appears that around 1980-90 these started to decline.

If truly these aerosols explains significant cooling, well, then a reduced cooling agent after 1980 should be accounted for when adjusting temperature data to find “the real” temperature signal.

F&R fails to do so.

Issue 4: Missing corrections for AMO

AMO appears to affect temperatures in the Arctic and also on large land areas of the NH.

Fig18. In fact, the temperatures of the AMO-affected Arctic is supposed to be an important parameter for global temperature trends, and thus correcting for AMO may be relevant.

The AMO appears to boost temperatures for years 2000-2010 , so any correction of temperatures using AMO would reduce temperature trend after 1980.

F&R do not mention AMO.

Issue 5: F&R could have mentioned the effect of their adjustments before 1979

F&R only shows impacts after 1979, possibly due to the limitations of satellite data.

Fig19. “Correcting” Hadcrut data for nino3,4 + volcanoes it turns out that the heat trend from 1950 is reduced around 0,16K or around 25%. Why not show this?

I chose 1950 as staring point because both Nina3,4 and SATO volcano index begins in 1950.

Conclusion

F&R appear seems to assume that temperature impacts on Earth only has impact while occurring, not after. If you heat up a glass of water, the heat wont go away instantly after removing the heat source, so to assume this for this Earth would need some documentation.

Only “correcting” for the instant fraction of a temperature impact and not impacts after ended impact gives a rather complex dataset with significant random appearing errors and thus, the resulting F&R “adjusted data” for temperatures appears useless. At least until the long term effect of temperature changes has been established in a robust manner.

Further, it seems that the PDO, Nin3,4 and Solar activities are related, and just by using the simplest mathematics (done to PDO) these can explain recent development in temperatures on Earth. The argument that “CO2 is needed to explain recent temperature trends” appears to be flat wrong.

Thus “correcting” for PDO/Nina3,4 long term effect might remove heat trend of temperature data all together.

Solar activity is shown to be an important driver PDO/Nino3,4 and thus climate.

Finally, can we then use temperature data without the above adjustment types?

Given the complexities involved with such adjustments, it is definitely better to accept the actual data than a datasets that appears to be fundamentally flawed.

Should one adjust just for Nino3,4 this lacks long time effects of Nina3,4 and more it does not remove flat trend from the recent decade of Hadcrut temperature data.

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pokerguy
December 18, 2011 10:28 am

“Personally, I can’t see the point of a site like that. A site where sycophantic sheep just chant “Four legs good, two legs bad”. Nothing can be learned there. The only surprising thing is that some people, presumably of very low self-esteem, still bother to go there.”
Couldn’t agree more. I refer to them as the intellectually undead. Truly as terrifying an army of brain dead zombies as you care to imagine…

December 18, 2011 10:32 am

It is astonishing that the general HadCru profile could end up, after “adjustments” to look like F&R 2011. At what point does data manipulation become data creation?
If most subsets do not show, in general, the combined trend, then there is no overall trend, there is just a mathematical artefact.
The large must reflect the small; in structural geology we use this principle to determine strike and dip of the hills around us from smaller, accessible outcrops. It doesn’t work when the larger picture is simply the jumble of multiple, disconnected events. So it is with the global climate: if the overall trend doesn’t show up in the smaller places, there is no connected, coherent cause. Just historical, chronological association.
In the discussed F & R 2011 “deconstruction”, enough presumed non-connected elements have been removed that one wonders what really has been left. The assumption is that all the deleted elements are outside effects; if they are not exterior, non-connected events, the result is not indicative of anything.
The world according to the Gaia-ists, is an interconnected, self-correcting, self-serving place of causes and effects bouncing back and forth. Harmony is the goal. Physics, as well as metaphysics, can be said comfortable with this concept. So to strip out a lot may simply find the net result of all sorts of changes and changes to changes. It is not necessarily to find it initial causative phenomena.
Look to the NIWA adjustments a smaller scale example of what I am talking about. Look at the original 7-station data, then look at the combined, homogenized, corrected and adjusted result. Either the original, 2009-era, NIWA unofficial-official record or the 2011 released official-official record (as they are identical). Do we see an underlying theme or a combination of changes of underlying, mutually interacting causes when we compare the initial station trends to the combined? Clearly not.
F&R 2011, along with similar GISTemp, careful, statistically correct, clean “trends” makes me suspicious of what has actually been uncovered (not “discovered”, note). All are based on the assumption that there are non-interacting, non-self-correcting or reinforcing effects. Only then can a flat record be pulled into a climb of terrible proportions.
High-level computers, a doctorate in statistical manipulation theory, and the backing of multi-billion dollar industries and politico-social pressure groups is what it takes to find 0.7C of temperature rise globally over the prior 40 years AND see that the biosphere is about to implode. If this is not a description of an obsessive-compulsive drive riding on a generalized anxiety-guilt, determined to show that we are bad people in need of redemption prior to acceptance by a disapproving Father – well, I don’t know what it is if it is not such a disappointing portrayal of the (alleged) smartest and kindest of men and women on the planet.
If all this hard work and self-flagellation energy had been directed towards assisting the impoverished and abused creatures of the world since 1988, what a great world we would be in today! Imagine if Al Gore had taken 100 million of his 300+ million and created model villages in Central America or Africa instead of buying ever-expanding suits and massage “therapists”. Imagine if Michael Mann had used his data skills to seeking the basis of sub-prime mortgage viability? (Actually, that is a big picture: his work is best on barely discernible images, where he-said-she-said actually has more importance than what was said.)
The data, the data, the data. Does it really say anything any more?

December 18, 2011 10:32 am

Bob Tisdale says:
December 18, 2011 at 3:31 am
M.A.Vukcevic says: “Only ‘good thing’ that came out of it was that.”
This (secretive Tamino is Grant Foster himself- MAV) was evident after the first round of Climategate emails.
Hi Bob
No, it was not evident to me, and possibly to some others. His foul mouth language on the RealClimate blog, was subsequently deleted, with number of other posts, so are some from Daniel Bailey of ‘Sceptical Science’.
That’s nonsense. TSI, which you object to, and sunspot numbers, which you used, vary in synch. addressed to Frank Lansner
It would be wrong to conclude that the solar influence on the land temperature always changes in synch with the sunspot record, as this 300 year record shows:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/SLT.htm
sometime it does, on the other hand more often it does not.

December 18, 2011 10:33 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen, nice to hear from you 🙂
You write:
“I have no idea who is right here, but I have the impression that the Svensmark hypothesis must be killed with all means…”
EXACTLY
I dont care if they just use a slightly wrong label for Solar Activity, no, THIS slighlty wrong labeling is SO symptomatic of Svensmark Solar theory denial!! THATS EXAXTLY THE POINT.
At any means, “we cant have anything crediting Svensmark”, this is sickening,m and thats why I pointed it out, thankyout 🙂

December 18, 2011 10:47 am

I believe I have a definitive test to determine if CAGW is real. Thought experiment: imagine putting a kettle on to make tea in a place where the electrical current is not very constant and subject to brief interruptions. The water will warm at various rates over time and occasionally will cool during low power or interruptions. Let us assume that the low power or interruptions are not sufficient to prevent reaching the boiling point eventually (hot enough for tea – why waste six times the energy of heating from room temperature to 100C to make it boil at 100C?) over as many minutes or hours as needed. Now, before it reaches 100C, we could do all kinds of adjustments based on the variable energy input, heat losses, volume of evaportated water, changes in air pressure, relative humidity, breezes coming in the window… and make models of when or if it will achieve 100C and even estimate when it will boil if this appears to be what is likely to happen. Some will add a factor that retards reaching the BP because the kettle is or isn’t being watched. Now how many different answers are we likely to get from the scientific community – many on both sides of the question of achieving the boiling point or not.
Now since we are assuming it will reach 100C, then all we have to do is wait. Forget all about adustments of hundredths of a degree and just watch the thermometers that we have properly checked out for accuracy – use two of them, wait a year, 5 years if necessary – the longer you wait, the more likely it is unlikely to reach the boiling point in some meaningful time.

Tilo Reber
December 18, 2011 10:52 am

Rahmsdorf is the same nut case that generated the study claiming that sea level rise is accelerating at a dangerously high rate, when any fool can look at the entire satellite era sea level data and see that it is decelerating. Of course, Tamino, knowing how vulnerable the teams, and especially Rahmsdorf’s, nonsense are, is not about to let anyone comment seriously on it on his site. But, for the life of me, I can’t understand why anyone wastes their time with Tamino any more.

December 18, 2011 10:56 am

Frank Lansner says: “Do global temperature warm in preiods of warm PDO´s?
Frank, the PDO does not represent the Sea Surface Temperature of the North Pacific. There is no mechanism through which the PDO can warm or cool global temperatures. The only reason people think it must play a role is the units it’s displayed in. Those units appear to be comparable to ENSO, but they’re not. The PDO data has been standardized.
The fact that global temperatures warm during periods with positive PDO and cool during periods of negative PDO is a coincidence that is dependent on another variable, and that variable is ENSO. I believe we’ve had this conversation before.
Frank Lansner says: “But why use TSI as label when oscillations here are themselves are certainly not the best explanation for Solar effect on Earth climate?”
Why? Because TSI is the measure of total solar irradiance at the top of the atmosphere.
Frank Lansner says: “Now, take a look at the coud cover variation:
http://www.climate4you.com/images/CloudCoverAllLevel%20AndWaterColumnSince1983.gif”
Where’s the solar proxy on the graph, Frank? Your claim was that cloud cover varied synchronously with solar.
Frank Lansner says: “Here it appears more clearly, Cloud cover – surprisingly – varies synchronous with cosmic rays:
http://www.theresilientearth.com/files/images/Cosmic_rays_and_cloud_cover-marsh.jpg”
My request was, Please identify which cloud cover dataset you’re referring to. This you have not done. The reason I made the simple request is ISCCP low cloud amount data is not inversely related to Solar:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2hfq5fp.jpg

Tilo Reber
December 18, 2011 10:56 am

“How in the world do these folks get this junk published??????????????”
As the climategate emails have shown again and again and again, the hockey team controls the publication process. You don’t think that Mann could have gotten three different papers published, all using upside down Tiljander data, if they didn’t control it, do you?

crosspatch
December 18, 2011 11:05 am

Nigel Calder warns of possible issues with ISCCP cloud cover data sets.

That is a major problem with all sorts of data, not just clouds. In this case the angle in which the satellite views the Earth changed so the amount of clouds it can see changed. I see one researcher “adjusted” the data and I haven’t looked at the adjustment process but generally I tend to be skeptical of “adjustments” if they are done by the person producing the paper because there is a natural tendency for things to come out in a desired way due to various confirmation biases. If the researcher were to hand the data off to someone else, explain the viewing angle problem, and have that third party who has no stake in the result perform the adjustment (say a physics or math major) then I might give it higher weight in my opinion.
But this is going to increasingly become a problem as our current fleet of satellites age out of useful life. Currently there is no budget and are no plans to replace many of them so our data streams from satellite observations will be in decline over the next couple of decades. NOAA, for example, has no plans to replace many satellites and NASA doesn’t appear keen to use their budget to replace them.
The bottom line is that I am not really convinced we have data of high enough quality to say. One would THINK it would be rather easy to create an overall composite of Earth’s cloud cover. All one would need is an instrument that we land on the moon that looks at Earth. The orbital differences are easily calculated so “corrections” for differences in distance, etc. are easy to compensate for. No “station keeping” required and it can use a nuclear power source to operate for decades. Moon would make a great Earth observatory that would be cheaper in the long run. I don’t know why we don’t use it.

richcar1225
December 18, 2011 11:06 am

I am not suprised F & S did not want to mess with the AMO. The detrended north atlantic SST index is the last pillar of AGW. Bob Tisdale has demonstrated that it accounts for the majority of SST and OHC increase over the last thirty years. It took about 12 years from the begining of the last significant solar decline starting in 1959 to the onset of negative AMO in 1971. The recent drop in AMO may be real and lasting.
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/images/bfly.gif
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/AMOPDO.jpg

davidmhoffer
December 18, 2011 11:12 am

Frank Lansner says: “But why use TSI as label when oscillations here are themselves are certainly not the best explanation for Solar effect on Earth climate?”
Bob Tisdale says: “Why? Because TSI is the measure of total solar irradiance at the top of the atmosphere.”
Suppose for a moment that TSI was 30 watts SW and 70 watts LW and then a year later it was 40 watts SW and 60 watts LW. The “TSI” would be constant at 100 watts, but the difference in the way energy from the sun interacted with the climate of earth would be substantively different.

December 18, 2011 11:16 am

richcar1225 says:
December 18, 2011 at 11:06 am
The recent drop in AMO may be real and lasting.
I would say most likely
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/theAMO-NAO.htm

davidmhoffer
December 18, 2011 11:17 am

Folks, on the matter of spelling:
Too plus too ekwals fore.
Anyone how would like to falsify this claim based on the spelling is welcome to try.

December 18, 2011 11:17 am

crosspatch says:
December 18, 2011 at 11:05 am
“..problem as our current fleet of satellites age out of useful life. Currently there is no budget and are no plans to replace many of them..”
There was no shortage of budget when the CAGW game was on. I’ve noticed that when data on sea level changes, Tropo T changes, ice changes, etc weren’t going the way the establishment liked, they began having problems with the satellites and had no plans to replace them.

December 18, 2011 11:17 am

Hi Bob!
Thankyou for a very nice comment, and actually its nice to hear what you have to say like this.
You Write:
“Frank, the PDO does not represent the Sea Surface Temperature of the North Pacific. There is no mechanism through which the PDO can warm or cool global temperatures. The only reason people think it must play a role is the units it’s displayed in”
I dont think that the strong connection between PDO and climate trends are dependant on PDO being a SST variable. Why do you think that?
In my writing i show data strongly suggesting that PDO eventually is Solar driven. This to me makes PDO interesting.
The timing – 1978 – of PDO switch cold to warm happens to match temperature trends nicely.
And similar fairly good timings are seen earlier too.
Bob: The parrallel well timed switches of climate trends and PDO, do you think that happens randomly?
(I have never heard a sceptic speak against the important role of PDO like this before , but ok, I dont read all.)
K.R. Frank

ShrNfr
December 18, 2011 11:20 am

@KR ““Objection”: TSI is hardly the essential parameter when it comes to Solar influence in Earth climate.
More appropriate it would be to use the level “Solar Activity”, “Sunspot number”, “Cloud cover” “Magnetism” or “Cosmic rays”. TSI is less relevant and should not be used as label.”
Actually, it doesn’t matter a lot if you look over time. It only matters at the wavelengths where the energy is absorbed. If they had included the TSI in the infra-red or the TSI in the UV (which effects the upper stratosphere) I could agree that TSI is a valid variable to look at. But lumping everything together into one big TSI is hypothesizing that all the wavelengths go up and down together. Sadly the sun does not work like that.

December 18, 2011 11:42 am

Frank Lansner says: “Here it appears more clearly, Cloud cover – surprisingly – varies synchronous with cosmic rays:
http://www.theresilientearth.com/files/images/Cosmic_rays_and_cloud_cover-marsh.jpg”
BobT :”My request was, Please identify which cloud cover dataset you’re referring to. This you have not done.”
Bob.
I have explained several times why the “Svensmark-denialistic” use of TSI by F&R offends me.
I then gave you a link to a relevant graphic from “theresillientearth” that seems to back up this tiny tangent of my article. Thus I have shown that i did NOT “fabricate” anything.
So you should now withdraw this accusation as your first priority.
Where Resillient Earth got the graphic from you ask?? I think its Svensmark 2003, but this graphic is simply all over the net, and its just so much faster to check it out yourself where they have it from than wait for me doing that.
Here its mentioned by Alan Cheetham that runs Appinsys:
http://www.appinsys.com/globalwarming/gw_part6_solarevidence.htm
Im not going to repeat more on this tiny tiny tiny tangent of this article that you pursue so energetic as if it was essential to the critic of the F&R article. (? ? ?)

December 18, 2011 12:19 pm

Frank Lansner says:
December 18, 2011 at 11:17 am
In my writing i show data strongly suggesting that PDO eventually is Solar driven. This to me makes PDO interesting.
I did some initial search into possible causes of the North Pacific Oscillations (where PDO is calculated) a found evidence which strongly suggests that direct solar connection is most unlikely.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/PDO.htm
This is in contrast to the other oceanic oscillation, the AMO where the an indirect solar link is the most likely. When eventfully I get to it I will explain in more detail.

December 18, 2011 12:38 pm

Bob:
In this writing from Svensmark and colleagues from DANISH tech univ 😉 they show the relationships I mentioned.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-4004.2007.48118.x/pdf
and
http://folk.uio.no/jegill/papers/kkk_asr_2004.pdf
Now, can we move on to the 5 F&R issues of my writing?
You have critisized one of these, Issue 2, PDO.
When i see data working together as I show in fig 14-16, then I the role of PDO is supported, not proven.
PDO is an indicator for which areas in the North pacific are cold and which are warm.
If it happens, that this pattern seems to affect climate is it then not relevant to consider PDO?

December 18, 2011 12:38 pm

I think Nigel Calder, courtesy of F Engelbeen, has the most helpful evidence for both Frank Lansner and Bob Tisdale. In this article (FE’s second ref) Calder shows
(a) the “consensus” is all too ready to do the Warmista – foul play to discredit Svensmark
(b) the issue of cloud measurement is fraught with problems
(c) but taking PROPER account of the effects of Forbusch incidents clearly, unequivocally, demonstrates that there is a link between GCR and clouds

tobyglyn
December 18, 2011 12:39 pm

Ron Manley says:
December 18, 2011 at 10:02 am
“Off topic, but with the death today of Vaclav Havel the Czech President, the world has lost one of the few statesman to keep an open mind on climate change.”
Ron, are you confusing him with (quote from NYT) “his political nemesis, the longtime prime minister — and now president — Vaclav Klaus” ?

December 18, 2011 12:44 pm

Hi Vukcevic!
Thankyou for input, I will check out yourlink!
Howver, does not this data comparison tell you that the Sun actualy appears to be the driver of PDO?
Why else the (stunningly!) nice timing?
K.R. Frank

December 18, 2011 12:46 pm

Hi Vukcevic!
wops…
heres the graphi that appears to show Solar driving of PDO (+ temperature…)
http://hidethedecline.eu/media/AREAL/Fig16.jpg
K.R. Frank

crosspatch
December 18, 2011 1:09 pm

M.A.Vukcevic says:
December 18, 2011 at 12:19 pm

PDO, I believe, is mainly a wind driven oscillation but I am having a bit of a chicken-egg issue. It is the ENSO / PDO connection that is giving me fits. Does one cause the other? If so, which one activates the other? Or are they both a product of a third thing? PDO is a toughy for me. When we have a negative PDO we tend to have more La Nina events than En Nino but are those events caused by the PDO or is the PDO a reflection of them or is there some third process that causes both?

December 18, 2011 1:13 pm

In their paper, Foster and Rahmstorf reveal either a lack of understanding of or a distain for the scientific method of inquiry by presenting models that are neither statistically validated nor susceptible to statistical validation. Models of this kind lie outside science.

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