Margaret Thatcher: the world’s first climate realist

http://newsrealblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/thatcher.jpg

Guest posting by Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Anthony Watts’ earlier posting about Margaret Thatcher’s sceptical approach to the climate question prompted some comments asking whether I could add anything to the story, since I gave her advice on science as well as other policy from 1982-1986, two years before the IPCC was founded.

First, what on Earth was a layman with a degree in classical languages and architecture  doing giving advice on science to the British Prime Minister, who was herself a scientist and a Fellow of the Royal Society?

Truth is, British government is small (though still a lot bigger and more expensive than it need be). The Prime Minister’s policy unit had just six members, and, as a mathematician who was about to make a goodish fortune turning an obscure and hitherto-unnoticed wrinkle in the principles of probabilistic combinatorics into a pair of world best-selling puzzles, I was the only one who knew any science.

So, faute de mieux, it was I who – on the Prime Minister’s behalf – kept a weather eye on the official science advisors to the Government, from the Chief Scientific Advisor downward. On my first day in the job, I tottered into Downing Street dragging with me one of the world’s first portable computers, the 18-lb Osborne 1, with a 5” screen, floppy disks that were still truly floppy, and a Z80 8-bit chip which I had learned to program in machine language as well as BASIC.

This was the first computer they had ever seen in Downing Street. The head of security, a bluff military veteran, was deeply suspicious. “What do you want a computer for?” he asked. “Computing,” I replied.

I worked that weighty little box hard. It did everything: converting opinion-poll percentages to predictions of Parliamentary seats won and lost (we predicted the result of the 1983 General Election to within 1 seat); demonstrating a new type of index-linked home loan that removed the inflationary front-loading of interest payments and made it easier for working people to buy the State-owned houses they lived in (we sold a million, and turned cringing clients of the State into proud homeowners with a valuable stake in Britain); and calculating the optimum hull configuration for warships to prove that a government department had defrauded a lone inventor (he got $1 million in compensation).

The tiny computer back-engineered the Social Security Department’s model that showed the impact of changes in tax and benefit rates on different types of family; discounted Cabinet Ministers’ policies to present value to appraise their viability as investments; and worked out how much extra revenue the Government would get if it cut the top rate of income tax from 60 cents on the dollar to 40 cents.

On that one, I was right and the Treasury were wrong: as I had calculated, the rich ended up paying not only more tax but a higher percentage of total tax, even though the top tax rate they had previously paid was 50% higher than the new rate.

The only expenses I ever claimed for in four years at 10 Downing Street were £172 for soldering dry joints on that overworked computer, on which I also did the first elementary radiative-transfer calculations that indicated climate scientists were right to say some “global warming” would arise as CO2 concentration continued to climb.

I briefed my colleagues in the Policy Unit, and also the Prime Minister herself. My advice was straightforward: CO2 concentrations were rising, we were causing it, and it would cause some warming, but at that time no one knew how much (plus ca change), so we needed to find out.

The Prime Minister’s response was equally hard-headed: we were to keep an eye on the problem and come back to her again when action was necessary.

Did she even mention that “global warming” presented an opportunity to give nuclear power a push and, at the same time, to do down the coal-miners who had destroyed a previous Conservative government and had also tried to destroy hers?

Certainly not, for four compelling reasons.

First, nuclear power was politically dead at that time, following the monumentally stupid attempt by the Soviet operators of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor to shut it down without external power just because they were curious to see what would happen.

Secondly, by then the mineworkers, under their Communist leadership, had long been defeated, and we were making arrangements for the deep, dangerous, loss-making coal-mines that had killed so many brave pitmen to be shut down and replaced with safer, profitable, opencast mines.

Two mineworkers came to my farewell party at 10 Downing Street: the first miners ever to enter Downing Street during a Conservative administration.

Thirdly, Margaret Thatcher was never vindictive: it simply was not in her nature. If any of us ever suggested taking any action that would unfairly disadvantage any of her political opponents, she would give us the Gazillion-Gigawatt Glare and say, very firmly and quietly, “Prime Ministers don’t, dear!”

Fourthly, she had an unusual mind that effortlessly spanned CP Snow’s Two Cultures.

As a former food chemist, she possessed the ruthlessly honest logic of the true scientist. As a former barrister, she had the vigor and articulacy of the true practitioner of the forensic arts. Too many scientists today are in effect politicians: too many politicians pretend to be scientific.

Margaret Thatcher was genuinely both scientist and politician, and was able to take the best from both roles without confusing them. She would not have dreamed of doing anything that in any way undermined the integrity of science.

A little vignette will illustrate her scientific integrity. In the late 1970s, a year before she won the first of her three General Elections and became Britain’s first woman Prime Minister, I had sent her a tiny piece of propaganda that I had designed, the Labour Pound.

The little slip of paper bore this simple message: “This is a Labour Pound. This is how small your banknote would be today if it had been shrunk to match the fall in its value under Labour. Vote Conservative!”

Margaret Thatcher noticed at once that the piece of paper was a little too small. Inflation had been bad under the Labour Government (at the time it was running at 27% a year), but not that bad. “Do it again and get it right and be fair,” she said. Humbled, I did as I was told – and tens of millions of Labour Pounds were distributed throughout Britain at the subsequent General Election, to satisfyingly devastating effect.

In 1988 it was my successor at No. 10, George Guise, who traveled one bitterly cold October weekend down to Chequers, the Prime Minister’s country house, and sat in front of a roaring fire writing the speech that would announce a government subsidy to the Royal Society to establish what would become the Hadley Centre for Forecasting.

George remembers how he and the Prime Minister chuckled at the irony of writing a speech about “global warming” on an evening so cold that he could hardly hold his pen.

But that’s October for you: a couple of years ago the scientific illiterates who now inhabit the House of Commons voted for the Climate Change and National Economic Hara-Kiri Bill by one of the largest majorities in Parliament’s history, with only three gallant MPs having the courage to defy the Whips and vote against – and this on the very night that the first October snow in 74 years fell in Parliament Square.

In due course, the scientific results began to arrive. It became as clear to Margaret Thatcher as it has to me that our original concern was no longer necessary. The warming effect of CO2 is simply too small to make much difference and, in any event, it is orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective to adapt to any consequences of “global warming” than to wreck the economies of the West by trying to demonize CO2 and cut our emissions.

Margaret Thatcher was very conscious that the Left tries to taint every aspect of life by attempting to politicize it.

In her thinking, therefore, there is genuine outrage that the coalescence of financial and political vested-interest factions in the scientific and academic community that are driving the climate scare should be striving to bring the age of enlightenment and reason to an end by treating scientific debate as though every question were a political football to be kicked Leftward.

In the elegant words of my good friend Bob Ferguson of the Science and Public Policy Institute, she is interested not in “policy-based evidence-making” but in “evidence-based policy-making”. The present crop of politicians on both sides of the Atlantic could learn much from her honest, forthright, no-nonsense approach.

Margaret Thatcher – the world’s first climate realist
Guest posting by Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Anthony Watts’ earlier posting about Margaret Thatcher’s sceptical approach to the climate question prompted some comments asking whether I could add anything to the story, since I gave her advice on science as well as other policy from 1982-1986, two years before the IPCC was founded.
First, what on Earth was a layman with a degree in classical languages and architecture  doing giving advice on science to the British Prime Minister, who was herself a scientist and a Fellow of the Royal Society?
Truth is, British government is small (though still a lot bigger and more expensive than it need be). The Prime Minister’s policy unit had just six members, and, as a mathematician who was about to make a goodish fortune turning an obscure and hitherto-unnoticed wrinkle in the principles of probabilistic combinatorics into a pair of world best-selling puzzles, I was the only one who knew any science.
So, faute de mieux, it was I who – on the Prime Minister’s behalf – kept a weather eye on the official science advisors to the Government, from the Chief Scientific Advisor downward. On my first day in the job, I tottered into Downing Street dragging with me one of the world’s first portable computers, the 18-lb Osborne 1, with a 5” screen, floppy disks that were still truly floppy, and a Z80 8-bit chip which I had learned to program in machine language as well as BASIC.
This was the first computer they had ever seen in Downing Street. The head of security, a bluff military veteran, was deeply suspicious. “What do you want a computer for?” he asked. “Computing,” I replied.
I worked that weighty little box hard. It did everything: converting opinion-poll percentages to predictions of Parliamentary seats won and lost (we predicted the result of the 1983 General Election to within 1 seat); demonstrating a new type of index-linked home loan that removed the inflationary front-loading of interest payments and made it easier for working people to buy the State-owned houses they lived in (we sold a million, and turned cringing clients of the State into proud homeowners with a valuable stake in Britain); and calculating the optimum hull configuration for warships to prove that a government department had defrauded a lone inventor (he go $1 million in compensation).
The tiny computer back-engineered the Social Security Department’s model that showed the impact of changes in tax and benefit rates on different types of family; discounted Cabinet Ministers’ policies to present value to appraise their viability as investments; and worked out how much extra revenue the Government would get if it cut the top rate of income tax from 60 cents on the dollar to 40 cents.
On that one, I was right and the Treasury were wrong: as I had calculated, the rich ended up paying not only more tax but a higher percentage of total tax, even though the top tax rate they had previously paid was 50% higher than the new rate.
The only expenses I ever claimed for in four years at 10 Downing Street were £172 for soldering dry joints on that overworked computer, on which I also did the first elementary radiative-transfer calculations that indicated climate scientists were right to say some “global warming” would arise as CO2 concentration continued to climb.
I briefed my colleagues in the Policy Unit, and also the Prime Minister herself. My advice was straightforward: CO2 concentrations were rising, we were causing it, and it would cause some warming, but at that time no one knew how much (plus ca change), so we needed to find out.
The Prime Minister’s response was equally hard-headed: we were to keep an eye on the problem and come back to her again when action was necessary.
Did she even mention that “global warming” presented an opportunity to give nuclear power a push and, at the same time, to do down the coal-miners who had destroyed a previous Conservative government and had also tried to destroy hers?
Certainly not, for four compelling reasons.
First, nuclear power was politically dead at that time, following the monumentally stupid attempt by the Soviet operators of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor to shut it down without external power just because they were curious to see what would happen.
Secondly, by then the mineworkers, under their Communist leadership, had long been defeated, and we were making arrangements for the deep, dangerous, loss-making coal-mines that had killed so many brave pitmen to be shut down and replaced with safer, profitable, opencast mines.
Two mineworkers came to my farewell party at 10 Downing Street: the first miners ever to enter Downing Street during a Conservative administration.
Thirdly, Margaret Thatcher was never vindictive: it simply was not in her nature. If any of us ever suggested taking any action that would unfairly disadvantage any of her political opponents, she would give us the Gazillion-Gigawatt Glare and say, very firmly and quietly, “Prime Ministers don’t, dear!”
Fourthly, she had an unusual mind that effortlessly spanned CP Snow’s Two Cultures.
As a former food chemist, she possessed the ruthlessly honest logic of the true scientist. As a former barrister, she had the vigor and articulacy of the true practitioner of the forensic arts. Too many scientists today are in effect politicians: too many politicians pretend to be scientific.
Margaret Thatcher was genuinely both scientist and politician, and was able to take the best from both roles without confusing them. She would not have dreamed of doing anything that in any way undermined the integrity of science.
A little vignette will illustrate her scientific integrity. In the late 1970s, a year before she won the first of her three General Elections and became Britain’s first woman Prime Minister, I had sent her a tiny piece of propaganda that I had designed, the Labour Pound.
The little slip of paper bore this simple message: “This is a Labour Pound. This is how small your banknote would be today if it had been shrunk to match the fall in its value under Labour. Vote Conservative!”
Margaret Thatcher noticed at once that the piece of paper was a little too small. Inflation had been bad under the Labour Government (at the time it was running at 27% a year), but not that bad. “Do it again and get it right and be fair,” she said. Humbled, I did as I was told – and tens of millions of Labour Pounds were distributed throughout Britain at the subsequent General Election, to satisfyingly devastating effect.
In 1988 it was my successor at No. 10, George Guise, who traveled one bitterly cold October weekend down to Chequers, the Prime Minister’s country house, and sat in front of a roaring fire writing the speech that would announce a government subsidy to the Royal Society to establish what would become the Hadley Centre for Forecasting.
George remembers how he and the Prime Minister chuckled at the irony of writing a speech about “global warming” on an evening so cold that he could hardly hold his pen.
But that’s October for you: a couple of years ago the scientific illiterates who now inhabit the House of Commons voted for the Climate Change and National Economic Hara-Kiri Bill by one of the largest majorities in Parliament’s history, with only three gallant MPs having the courage to defy the Whips and vote against – and this on the very night that the first October snow in 74 years fell in Parliament Square.
In due course, the scientific results began to arrive. It became as clear to Margaret Thatcher as it has to me that our original concern was no longer necessary. The warming effect of CO2 is simply too small to make much difference and, in any event, it is orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective to adapt to any consequences of “global warming” than to wreck the economies of the West by trying to demonize CO2 and cut our emissions.
Margaret Thatcher was very conscious that the Left tries to taint every aspect of life by attempting to politicize it.
In her thinking, therefore, there is genuine outrage that the coalescence of financial and political vested-interest factions in the scientific and academic community that are driving the climate scare should be striving to bring the age of enlightenment and reason to an end by treating scientific debate as though every question were a political football to be kicked Leftward.
In the elegant words of my good friend Bob Ferguson of the Science and Public Policy Institute, she is interested not in “policy-based evidence-making” but in “evidence-based policy-making”. The present crop of politicians on both sides of the Atlantic could learn much from her honest, forthright, no-nonsense approach.

Margaret Thatcher: the world’s first climate realist

by Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Anthony Watts’ earlier posting about Margaret Thatcher’s sceptical approach to the climate question prompted some comments asking whether I could add anything to the story, since I gave her advice on science as well as other policy from 1982-1986, two years before the IPCC was founded.

First, what on Earth was a layman with a degree in classical languages and architecture  doing giving advice on science to the British Prime Minister, who was herself a scientist and a Fellow of the Royal Society?

Truth is, British government is small (though still a lot bigger and more expensive than it need be). The Prime Minister’s policy unit had just six members, and, as a mathematician who was about to make a goodish fortune turning an obscure and hitherto-unnoticed wrinkle in the principles of probabilistic combinatorics into a pair of world best-selling puzzles, I was the only one who knew any science.

So, faute de mieux, it was I who – on the Prime Minister’s behalf – kept a weather eye on the official science advisors to the Government, from the Chief Scientific Advisor downward. On my first day in the job, I tottered into Downing Street dragging with me one of the world’s first portable computers, the 18-lb Osborne 1, with a 5” screen, floppy disks that were still truly floppy, and a Z80 8-bit chip which I had learned to program in machine language as well as BASIC.

This was the first computer they had ever seen in Downing Street. The head of security, a bluff military veteran, was deeply suspicious. “What do you want a computer for?” he asked. “Computing,” I replied.

I worked that weighty little box hard. It did everything: converting opinion-poll percentages to predictions of Parliamentary seats won and lost (we predicted the result of the 1983 General Election to within 1 seat); demonstrating a new type of index-linked home loan that removed the inflationary front-loading of interest payments and made it easier for working people to buy the State-owned houses they lived in (we sold a million, and turned cringing clients of the State into proud homeowners with a valuable stake in Britain); and calculating the optimum hull configuration for warships to prove that a government department had defrauded a lone inventor (he go $1 million in compensation).

The tiny computer back-engineered the Social Security Department’s model that showed the impact of changes in tax and benefit rates on different types of family; discounted Cabinet Ministers’ policies to present value to appraise their viability as investments; and worked out how much extra revenue the Government would get if it cut the top rate of income tax from 60 cents on the dollar to 40 cents.

On that one, I was right and the Treasury were wrong: as I had calculated, the rich ended up paying not only more tax but a higher percentage of total tax, even though the top tax rate they had previously paid was 50% higher than the new rate.

The only expenses I ever claimed for in four years at 10 Downing Street were £172 for soldering dry joints on that overworked computer, on which I also did the first elementary radiative-transfer calculations that indicated climate scientists were right to say some “global warming” would arise as CO2 concentration continued to climb.

I briefed my colleagues in the Policy Unit, and also the Prime Minister herself. My advice was straightforward: CO2 concentrations were rising, we were causing it, and it would cause some warming, but at that time no one knew how much (plus ca change), so we needed to find out.

The Prime Minister’s response was equally hard-headed: we were to keep an eye on the problem and come back to her again when action was necessary.

Did she even mention that “global warming” presented an opportunity to give nuclear power a push and, at the same time, to do down the coal-miners who had destroyed a previous Conservative government and had also tried to destroy hers?

Certainly not, for four compelling reasons.

First, nuclear power was politically dead at that time, following the monumentally stupid attempt by the Soviet operators of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor to shut it down without external power just because they were curious to see what would happen.

Secondly, by then the mineworkers, under their Communist leadership, had long been defeated, and we were making arrangements for the deep, dangerous, loss-making coal-mines that had killed so many brave pitmen to be shut down and replaced with safer, profitable, opencast mines.

Two mineworkers came to my farewell party at 10 Downing Street: the first miners ever to enter Downing Street during a Conservative administration.

Thirdly, Margaret Thatcher was never vindictive: it simply was not in her nature. If any of us ever suggested taking any action that would unfairly disadvantage any of her political opponents, she would give us the Gazillion-Gigawatt Glare and say, very firmly and quietly, “Prime Ministers don’t, dear!”

Fourthly, she had an unusual mind that effortlessly spanned CP Snow’s Two Cultures.

As a former food chemist, she possessed the ruthlessly honest logic of the true scientist. As a former barrister, she had the vigor and articulacy of the true practitioner of the forensic arts. Too many scientists today are in effect politicians: too many politicians pretend to be scientific.

Margaret Thatcher was genuinely both scientist and politician, and was able to take the best from both roles without confusing them. She would not have dreamed of doing anything that in any way undermined the integrity of science.

A little vignette will illustrate her scientific integrity. In the late 1970s, a year before she won the first of her three General Elections and became Britain’s first woman Prime Minister, I had sent her a tiny piece of propaganda that I had designed, the Labour Pound.

The little slip of paper bore this simple message: “This is a Labour Pound. This is how small your banknote would be today if it had been shrunk to match the fall in its value under Labour. Vote Conservative!”

Margaret Thatcher noticed at once that the piece of paper was a little too small. Inflation had been bad under the Labour Government (at the time it was running at 27% a year), but not that bad. “Do it again and get it right and be fair,” she said. Humbled, I did as I was told – and tens of millions of Labour Pounds were distributed throughout Britain at the subsequent General Election, to satisfyingly devastating effect.

In 1988 it was my successor at No. 10, George Guise, who traveled one bitterly cold October weekend down to Chequers, the Prime Minister’s country house, and sat in front of a roaring fire writing the speech that would announce a government subsidy to the Royal Society to establish what would become the Hadley Centre for Forecasting.

George remembers how he and the Prime Minister chuckled at the irony of writing a speech about “global warming” on an evening so cold that he could hardly hold his pen.

But that’s October for you: a couple of years ago the scientific illiterates who now inhabit the House of Commons voted for the Climate Change and National Economic Hara-Kiri Bill by one of the largest majorities in Parliament’s history, with only three gallant MPs having the courage to defy the Whips and vote against – and this on the very night that the first October snow in 74 years fell in Parliament Square.

In due course, the scientific results began to arrive. It became as clear to Margaret Thatcher as it has to me that our original concern was no longer necessary. The warming effect of CO2 is simply too small to make much difference and, in any event, it is orders of magnitude cheaper and more cost-effective to adapt to any consequences of “global warming” than to wreck the economies of the West by trying to demonize CO2 and cut our emissions.

Margaret Thatcher was very conscious that the Left tries to taint every aspect of life by attempting to politicize it.

In her thinking, therefore, there is genuine outrage that the coalescence of financial and political vested-interest factions in the scientific and academic community that are driving the climate scare should be striving to bring the age of enlightenment and reason to an end by treating scientific debate as though every question were a political football to be kicked Leftward.

In the elegant words of my good friend Bob Ferguson of the Science and Public Policy Institute, she is interested not in “policy-based evidence-making” but in “evidence-based policy-making”. The present crop of politicians on both sides of the Atlantic could learn much from her honest, forthright, no-nonsense approach.

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Roger Knights
June 17, 2010 1:32 am

If any of the regular contributors here have the time and interest however I think a dissection of Abrahams work would be a worthwhile exercise.
Tonyb

Monckton says he’s getting his boots on: http://cfact.eu/2010/06/04/climate-the-extremists-join-the-debate-at-last/comment-page-2/#comment-635

Julian Flood
June 17, 2010 1:33 am

Steven Mosher said: June 16, 2010 at 11:25 pm
quote In any complex system you are going to see transient responses that go in opposite direction to the forcing. You should know this, but over time as internal inertias are played out the forcing will have its way. As I said, increased GHGs won’t cool the planet in the long term. You are not arguing that they will are you? unquote
If the Earth is a homeostatic system then all bets are off, and increased GHGs, while not cooling, may not within pretty wide limits be warming. There are places in climate science where assumptions are made but not spelled out, and the idea that simply adding an amount of CO2 X will, at once or eventually, lead to Y amount of warming is not something I’ve seen demonstrated. It may be true, but have _you_ seen it demonstrated? This is not to deny the greenhouse effect, it is to question its relevance (within those bounds) in a complex system at the edge of the water/vapour/ice boundary.
The atmospheric equilibrium will (would have) depended on some balance of inputs and outputs. The big assumption of climate science is that our contribution to the change from a stable state is adding CO2, but I see no reason to prefer that explanation to the idea that we have disrupted the feedbacks. Put simply, the idea that we can alter the major effect, CO2, seems less likely to me than the notion of altering the feedback mechanisms which maintain the homeostasis.
I once wrote a (very basic and inefficient, 32k BBC Micro) Daisy World. In Lovelock’s idea the daisies grow black when it’s cold and white when it’s hot, so hotter worlds will increase their albedo and resist further warming, cooler worlds the other way round. Current CO2-driven climate change theory is like assuming that digging up the white daisies is the only way to produce the effect we see. I’d rather see some thought devoted to what would happen if we are e.g. dirtying the daisies.
We are dirtying the white daisies in the Gulf at the moment. Smoothed by oil sheen the water is warming up during the day, not cooling so quickly at night. If anyone has two ounces of common-sense then they are checking the aerosol production from oil-polluted waves. Someone at NASA must, surely, be analysing any changes in low-level cloud cover to see if oily water does effect the cloud just above it.
Here’s a mechanism which might have been in action before anthropogenic damage was done. A warmer world means more wind. It also means more breaking waves, more cloud nuclei so more low-level cloud, a cooling feedback. More wind means a rougher sea which means a greater albedo and, during the day, more solar short wave radiation reflected, a cooling feedback. Rougher water has greater emissivity so during the night it cools more rapidly than smoothed water, a cooling feedback.
Dirty white daisies warm. An oily sea surface warms. Lots of daisies are getting dirty. Let’s hope someone is doing the science.
Perhaps, Lord Monkton, you should dust off the Osborne….
JF

Noelene
June 17, 2010 1:44 am

Didn’t Margaret Thatcher break a powerful union?She was hated by the lefty press here in Australia.The Aussie 60 minutes crew did a hatchet job on her.

baahumbug
June 17, 2010 2:13 am

James Sexton says:
June 16, 2010 at 9:07 pm

Just because someone had the money (and lack of drive) to sit and listen to people that “can’t”, for an extended period of time, doesn’t make them “scientists”, it makes them leaches on society.

I might just plaigi…plage…plagur…copy that.

milanovic
June 17, 2010 2:14 am

Sexton
Please provide some evidence for your claim polar bears are increasing. You say its everywhere on the web, and yes, on blogs it is. But the current population status can be found here:
http://pbsg.npolar.no/en/status/status-table.html
Of the 19 polar bear populations, 8 are declining, 3 are stable, 1 is increasing, and 7 have insufficient data
But of course you don’t believe these official numbers I guess?

baahumbug
June 17, 2010 2:16 am

Those who are discussing the warming properties of CO2 may need to remember that CO2 also helps cool.
Trenberth claims 70% of cooling is via GHG’s. If true, then there may be a threshold where additional CO2 may actually cool the planet. Would explain some ice ages no?

Bryan
June 17, 2010 2:27 am

Being of the old left and a sceptic I prefer the version where Thatcher is a hard faced old reactionary who did not believe in “society” and initiated the Hadley centre and the IPCC.

milanovic
June 17, 2010 2:30 am

“polar bears are increasing”
sorry, I meant: “polar bear populations are increasing” 🙂

baahumbug
June 17, 2010 2:49 am

milanovic says:
June 17, 2010 at 2:14 am

http://pbsg.npolar.no/en/status/status-table.html
Of the 19 polar bear populations, 8 are declining, 3 are stable, 1 is increasing, and 7 have insufficient data
But of course you don’t believe these official numbers I guess?

Well I don’t believe those “official” numbers, and here is why.
Following your link, I come across this article..”Nunavut states polar bears not at risk, PBSG responds”
So I follow that response. It’s in pdf format HERE
Now, the Nunavut claimed their polar bear populations were thriving. How do your “officials” respond?
The first 2 paragraphs affectively say “we are the authority, we were chosen by political groups, we know best, we are scientists.” (read it if you don’t believe me.)
The rest of the response is ALL ABOUT HOW CLIMATE CHANGE WILL AFFECT POLAR BEARS. The rest is all about how they had a meeting here and a meeting there and it was resolved yada yada yada.
However, IT’S INSTRUCTIVE TO NOTE THAT NOWHERE…THATS NOWHERE IN THEIR RESPONSE DOES THE PBSG REFUTE THE NANAVUT CLAIM THAT THEIR POLAR BEARS ARE THRIVING.
the PBSG is a political organization whose word I wouldn’t trust if my life (or that of a poly berra) depended on it.

Chris Wright
June 17, 2010 3:16 am

I have the very highest regard for Christopher Monckton, but something seems to be seriously missing from his narrative.
From her published speeches as well as some recordings it seems very clear that at one stage Mrs Thatcher fully believed in the global warming scare. Until last Sunday I assumed that she still believed in it.
But, thanks to Christopher Booker in the Sunday Telegraph, I now know that, as of 2003 at least, she is now a convinced climate change sceptic.
This is of course wonderful news. If there’s one thing better than an influential climate sceptic, it’s one who was once a true believer but who is now a sceptic. I would be fascinated to know how exactly this change came about.
Chris

Shub Niggurath
June 17, 2010 3:25 am

Mosher
“In any complex system you are going to see transient responses that go in opposite direction to the forcing. You should know this, but over time as internal inertias are played out the forcing will have its way. As I said, increased GHGs won’t cool the planet in the long term. You are not arguing that they will are you? ”
Staying within the bounds of what you said…
When we say something like “CO2 causes warming, the only question is how much”, as you did above and to which I responded, we are already outside the realm of direct causation. More so when you bring up the issue of ‘system inertia’, which implies that there are meta-CO2 processes.
So a statement like ‘CO2 causes warming’ is not completely accurate, is it? Just nitpicking basically. 😉
As for the temperature record, let us just say I am skeptical of the exercise.

milanovic
June 17, 2010 3:36 am

@baahumbug
thanks for your response
Yes, their statement isn’t very helpful. However I have no reason to believe the government of Nunavut. Of course they would rather not have the polar bears listed as vulnerable. So you say that “NOWHERE IN THEIR RESPONSE DOES THE PBSG REFUTE THE NANAVUT CLAIM THAT THEIR POLAR BEARS ARE THRIVING.” No, but their website is quite clear, you can find (albeit sparse) data their, and the government of Nunavut did not give ANY EVIDENCE that polar bear populations are not decreasing, they just say “We understand the polar bears, and we do actually think our polar bear population is very very healthy, with the exception of a couple of populations that we are taking action on.”
Your statement that PBSG is a political organization is laughable. the Nunavut government isn’t political? I really don’t understand why you distrust the official organization while trusting a government without question. The PBSG is at least an independent organization.
Of course there is much uncertainty about polar bears populations and the relation to climate change. However, just shouting that polar bears populations are increasing as James Sexton did, while the best estimates are that they are not, is very unhelpful, to say the least.

Reply to  milanovic
June 17, 2010 3:45 am
June 17, 2010 3:47 am

Let me say this more clearly. The article is pure fiction. It’s all very well for Monckton to tour the USA and play up to his naive, right wing audiences with his semi aristocratic background, but he can’t fool everyone. Yes, he is right about AGW science and an excellent speaker, but he is a complete political liability and the loosest cannon on earth.

baahumbug
June 17, 2010 3:52 am

milanovic says:
June 17, 2010 at 3:36 am
Point taken about the Nanavut government.
But I wouldn’t laugh at my statement that the PBSG is a political organization. They sold their scientific soul long ago. (did you read how long and how many meetings it took for them to decide what the numbers were? The process they undertook was political, not scientific)
The money (and limelight) is rolling in…..so long as the bears are seen to be in danger from mans emissions.
Therefore, we may all conclude that none of us know whether PB populations are growing or declining, and the cause(s) of either.
I’m trying to find the statement from a former PBSG member, their most experienced, who resigned over this politicization. Maybe others can help.

Joe Lalonde
June 17, 2010 3:54 am

Thank you Lord Monckton.
The scientific brigade are their own worst enemies by quoting each other and trying to use their positioning as being absolute authority instead of using facts to back-up their claims.

baahumbug
June 17, 2010 3:55 am

There you go, jeez to the rescue.
Thank you jeez 🙂

Christoph
June 17, 2010 3:56 am

Well put, Chris Wright.
I don’t believe Christopher Monckton gave anything like an adequate account of the transition… and if anything, he implied there was no transition because she was always reasonably skeptical.
But the facts do not seem to agree with that and it’s something I think, fairly, that Anthony should ask Christopher if he wishes to comment on here.
I have no problem with Lady Thatcher having changed her mind. I’m glad she did … and I hope we’re all right, of course, because if we’re not, then the consequences could indeed be as dire as Lady Thatcher once warned the world.

Bob Layson
June 17, 2010 4:07 am

The best model of the Earth is the Earth itself. It leaves nothing out and everything is replicated in real time and actual size. Look back at the geological evidence and see whether irreversable thermal runaway occurred when carbon-dioxide levels were much higher than now. They did not. Admittedly, the continents were not then as presently configured but how can such a detail prevent the mighty molecule that becircles the Earth like a Colossus having its sway?

June 17, 2010 4:14 am

“evidence-based policy-making”
and
“George remembers how he and the Prime Minister chuckled at the irony of writing a speech about “global warming” on an evening so cold that he could hardly hold his pen.”
Well did she say that she would put money on the table at the Royal Society, if they make AGW look real, Christopher Monckton? (as quoted from an ex-editor of New Scientist, in the Great Global Warming Swindle)

RockyRoad
June 17, 2010 4:35 am

toby says:
June 17, 2010 at 1:09 am
(…)
Someone mentioned Al Gore above, and of course Mr Gore has also been accused of errors and misrepresentations. But al least Gore seems to have based his talks on the best of the science available to him, actually talked to scientists and used a science advisor.
—————Reply:
You have GOT to be kidding. Right?
(I think your term “seems” is a stretch of unparalleled magnitude! Besides, since Gore doesn’t talk to anybody credible (he certainly doesn’t do debates, now, does he?) you’re dreaming if you think his talks have any credibility at all! Mr. Carbon Credit “Millions of Degrees” Gore is a scientific joke!)

Robert
June 17, 2010 4:41 am

baahumbug says:
June 17, 2010 at 2:16 am
Those who are discussing the warming properties of CO2 may need to remember that CO2 also helps cool.
Trenberth claims 70% of cooling is via GHG’s. If true, then there may be a threshold where additional CO2 may actually cool the planet. Would explain some ice ages no?
No because CO2 is lower during Ice Ages… Oceans can uptake more if colder for one

DirkH
June 17, 2010 4:42 am

” toby says:
[…]
Someone mentioned Al Gore above, and of course Mr Gore has also been accused of errors and misrepresentations. But al least Gore seems to have based his talks on the best of the science available to him, actually talked to scientists and used a science advisor.”
Christopher Monckton knows assembler programming. Al Gore thinks the Earth is millions of degrees hot a few km down. Dude, it’s simply unfair to compare them.

milanovic
June 17, 2010 4:50 am

@baahumbug
“I’m trying to find the statement from a former PBSG member, their most experienced, who resigned over this politicization. Maybe others can help.”
I would be interested, thanks.
“Therefore, we may all conclude that none of us know whether PB populations are growing or declining, and the cause(s) of either.”
That’s a valid point I think. I have no reason yet to be sceptical towards PBSG, but I haven’t looked into that in detail. I think we can be sure that there is much uncertainty about polar bears populations, whether declining or increasing, let alone the causes. But I haven’t seen any data yet that globally populations are increasing, while I have seen data that say they are decreasing, so I would bet on the latter. It should also be noted that it just isn’t so easy to estimate polar bear populations, as there are actually few measurements.

RockyRoad
June 17, 2010 4:58 am

Let me add just one aspect to my previous comment belittling Mr. Gore. In one of his presentations, he shows a history of CO2 and temperature during the past several hundred thousand years. The two graphs are shown separated–one above the other. His representation of this data is the only one I’ve seen where they are separated–it isn’t an original slide that he shows–no, he had it reconstructed. And he does this to be deceptive. He states that CO2 drives the temperature. (Gasps from the audience, naturally!)
However, if the two graphs are superimposed, you’d see that CO2 lags the temperature by about 800 years! Causation?
I’ll describe Gore’s “causation”. Either Gore and/or his “science” advisers knew the implications of keeping the two graphs superimposed–it would debunk their theory regarding CO2 rather than support it, so they split the graphs and required that the audience trust their interpretation.
As a consequence, he (and/or his “science” advisors) are demonstrable liars. Got that? LIARS!
So by supporting Mr. Gore’s assertions, are you either unaware of his nefarious scheme, or are you a liar too?
(And oh yes, I’ve heard all sorts of apologists explain this away–how there is perhaps some magical, invisible future forcing where the lagging CO2 somehow caused temperatures to rise (and fall) ~800 years BEFORE IT did. Again, you’ve GOT to be kidding! Right? Conclusion? They deal in lies.)

Gareth Phillips
June 17, 2010 5:08 am

1. milanovic says:
June 17, 2010 at 2:14 am
http://pbsg.npolar.no/en/status/status-table.html
Of the 19 polar bear populations, 8 are declining, 3 are stable, 1 is increasing, and 7 have insufficient data
But of course you don’t believe these official numbers I guess?
In the 1960s, there were probably 5,000 polar bears around the globe. Forty years later – thanks largely to a reduction in hunting – the World Conservation Union (IUCN) counts five-times that many. Hunting remains the overwhelming governor of polar bear numbers. It’s a lot easier to blame climate change than lose the trade on polar bear pelts by banning hunting eh!
5000 in 1960s before hunting controls to 25000 currently.
This could be interpreted in some circles as an increase in numbers

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