The oceans as a calorimeter and solar amplification

For those who don’t know, a calorimeter is a device to measure heat capacity. There is an entire science called calorimetry devoted to this measurement. Scottish physician and scientist Joseph Black, who was the first to recognize the distinction between heat and temperature, is claimed to be founder of calorimetry. Interestingly, Black studied properties of Carbon Dioxide. One of his experiments involved placing a flame and mice into the carbon dioxide. Because both entities died, Black concluded that the air was not breathable. He named it ‘fixed air’ – Anthony

Reposted from Sciencebits by Professor Nir J. Shaviv, Racah Institute of Physics

I few months ago, I had a paper accepted in the Journal of Geophysical Research. Since its repercussions are particularly interesting for the general public, I decided to write about it. I would have written earlier, but as I wrote before, I have been quite busy. I now have time, sitting in my hotel in Lijiang (Yunnan, China).

Lijiang Scene

A scene in Lijiang near my hotel, where most of this post was written. More pics here.

A calorimeter is a device which measures the amount of heat given off in a chemical or physical reaction. It turns out that one can use the Earth’s oceans as one giant calorimeter to measure the amount of heat Earth absorbs and reemits every solar cycle. Two questions probably pop in your mind,

a) Why is this interesting?

and,

b) How do you do so?

Let me answer.

One of the raging debates in the climate community relates to the question of whether there is any mechanism amplifying solar activity. That is, are the solar synchronized climatic variations that we see (e.g., take a look at fig. 1 here) due to changes of just the solar irradiance, or, are they due to some effect which amplifies the solar-climate link. In particular, is there an amplification of some non-thermal component of the sun? (e.g., UV, solar magnetic field, solar wind or others which have much larger variations than the 0.1% variations of the solar irradiance). This question has interesting repercussions to the question of global warming, which is why the debate is so fierce.

If only solar irradiance is the cause of the solar-related climate variations, it would imply that the small solar variations cause large temperature variations on Earth, and therefore that Earth has a very sensitive climate. If on the other hand there is some amplification mechanism, it would imply that solar variations induce much larger variations in the radiative budget, and that the observed temperature variations can therefore be explained with a smaller climate sensitivity.

Since global warming alarmists want a large sensitivity, they adamantly fight any evidence which shows that there might be an amplification mechanism. Clearly, a larger climate sensitivity would imply that the same CO2 increase over the 21st century would cause a larger temperature increase, that is, allow for a more frightening scenario, more need for climate research and climate action, and more need for research money for them. (I am being overly cynical here, but it some cases it is not far from the truth). Others don’t even need research money, don’t really care about the science (and certainly don’t understand it), but make money from riding the wave anyway (e.g., a former vice president, without naming names).

On the other end of the spectrum, politically driven skeptics want to burn fossil fuels relentlessly. A real global warming problem would force them to change their plans. Therefore, any argument which would imply a small climate sensitivity and a lower predicted 21st century temperature increase is favored by them. Just like their opponents, they do so without actually understanding the science.

I of course, don’t get money from oil companies. In fact, I am not a republican (hey, I am even the head of a workers union). I care about the environment (I grew up in a solar house) and think there are a dozen good reasons why we should burn less fossil fuels, but as you will see below, global warming is not one of them. In fact, I am driven by something strange… the quest for the knowledge!

With this intro, you can realize why answering the solar amplification question is very important (besides being a genuinely interesting scientific question), and why answering it (either way) would make some people really annoyed.

So, what do the oceans tell us?

Over the 11 or so year solar cycle, solar irradiance changes by typically 0.1%. i.e., about 1 W/m2 relative to the solar constant of 1360 W/m2. Once one averages for the whole surface of earth (i.e., divide by 4) and takes away the reflected component (i.e., times 1 minus the albedo), it comes out to be about 0.17 W/m2 variations relative to the 240 W/m2. Thus, if only solar irradiance variations are present, Earth’s sensitivity has to be pretty high to explain the solar-climate correlations (see the collapsed box below).

However, if solar activity is amplified by some mechanism (such as hypersensitivity to UV, or indirectly through sensitivity to cosmic ray flux variations), then in principle, a lower climate sensitivity can explain the solar-climate links, but it would mean that a much larger heat flux is entering and leaving the system every solar cycle.

The IPCC’s small solar forcing and the emperor’s new clothes.

With the years, the IPCC has tried to downgrade the role of the sun. The reason is stated above – a large solar forcing would necessarily imply a lower anthropogenic effect and lower climate sensitivity. This includes perpetually doubting any non-irradiance amplification mechanism, and even emphasizing publications which downgrade long term variations in the irradiance. In fact, this has been done to such an extent, that clear solar/climate links such as the Mounder minimum are basically impossible to explain with any reasonable climate sensitivity. Here are the numbers.

According to the IPCC (AR4), the solar irradiance is responsible for a net radiative forcing increase between the Maunder Minimum and today of 0.12 W/m2 (0.06 to 0.60 at 90% confidence). We know however that the Maunder minimum was about 1°C colder (e.g., from direct temperature measurements of boreholes – e.g., this summary). This requires a global sensitivity of 1.0/0.12°C/(W/m2). Since doubling the CO2 is thought to induce a 3.8 W/m2 change in the radiative forcing, irradiance/climate correlations require a CO2 doubling temperature of ΔTx2 ~ 31°C !! Besides being at odds with other observations, any sensitivity larger than ΔTx2 ~ 10°C would cause the climate to be unconditionally unstable (see box here).

Clearly, the IPCC scientists don’t comprehend that their numbers add up to a totally inconsistent picture. Of course, the real story is that solar forcing, even just the irradiance change, is larger than the IPCC values.

Now, is there a direct record which measures the heat flux going into the climate system? The answer is that over the 11-year solar cycle, a large fraction of the flux entering the climate system goes into the oceans. However, because of the high heat capacity of the oceans, this heat content doesn’t change the ocean temperature by much. And as a consequence, the oceans can be used as a “calorimeter” to measure the solar radiative forcing. Of course, the full calculation has to include the “calorimetric efficiency” and the fact that the oceans do change their temperature a little (such that some of the heat is radiated away, thereby reducing the calorimetric efficiency).

It turns out that there are three different types of data sets from which the ocean heat content can derived. The first data is is that of direct measurements using buoys. The second is the ocean surface temperature, while the third is that of the tide gauge record which reveals the thermal expansion of the oceans. Each one of the data sets has different advantages and disadvantages.

The ocean heat content, is a direct measurement of the energy stored in the oceans. However, it requires extended 3D data, the holes in which contributed systematic errors. The sea surface temperature is only time dependent 2D data, but it requires solving for the heat diffusion into the oceans, which of course has its uncertainties (primarily the vertical turbulent diffusion coefficient). Last, because ocean basins equilibrate over relatively short periods, the tide gauge record is inherently integrative. However, it has several systematic uncertainties, for example, a non-neligible contribution from glacial meting (which on the decadal time scale is still secondary).

Nevertheless, the beautiful thing is that within the errors in the data sets (and estimate for the systematics), all three sets give consistently the same answer, that a large heat flux periodically enters and leaves the oceans with the solar cycle, and this heat flux is about 6 to 8 times larger than can be expected from changes in the solar irradiance only. This implies that an amplification mechanism necessarily exists. Interestingly, the size is consistent with what would be expected from the observed low altitude cloud cover variations.

Here are some figures from the paper:

fig. 1: Sea Surface Temperature anomaly, Sea Level Rate, Net Oceanic Heat Flux, the TSI anomaly and Cosmic Ray flux variations. In the top panel are the inverted Haleakala/Huancayo neutron monitor data (heavy line, dominated by cosmic rays with a primary rigidity cutoff of 12.9 GeV), and the TSI anomaly (TSI – 1366 W/m2 , thin line, and based on Lean [2000]). The next panel depicts the net oceanic heat flux, averaged over all the oceans (thin line) and the more complete average heat flux in the Atlantic region (Lon 80°W to 30°E, thick line), based on Ishii et al. [2006]. The next two panels plot the SLR and SST anomaly. The thin lines are the two variables with their linear trends removed. In the thick lines, the ENSO component is removed as well (such that the cross-correlation with the ENSO signal will vanish).

fig 2: Sea Level vs. Solar Activity. Sea level change rate over the 20th century is based on 24 tide gauges previously chosen by Douglas [1997] for the stringent criteria they satisfy (solid line, with 1-σ statistical error range denoted with the shaded region). The rates are compared with the total solar irradiance variations Lean [2000] (dashed line, with the secular trends removed). Note that before 1920 or after 1995, there are about 10 stations or less such that the uncertainties increase.

fig 3: Summary of the “calorimetric” measurements and expectations for the average global radiative forcing Fglobal. Each of the 3 measurements suffers from different limitations. The ocean heat content (OHC) is the most direct measurement but it suffers from completeness and noise in the data. The heat flux obtained from the sea surface temperature (SST) variations depends on the modeling of the heat diffusion into the ocean, here the diffusion coefficient is the main source of error. As for the sea level based flux, the largest uncertainty is due to the ratio between the thermal contribution and the total sea level variations. The solid error bars are the global radiative forcing obtained while assuming that similar forcing variations occur over oceans and land. The dotted error bars assume that the radiative forcing variations are only over the oceans. These measurements should be compared with two different expectations. The TSI is the expected flux if solar variability manifests itself only as a variable solar constant. The “Low Clouds+TSI” point is the expected oceanic flux based on the observed low altitude cloud cover variations, which appear to vary in sync with the solar cycle (while assuming several approximations). Evidently, the TSI cannot explain the observed flux going into the ocean. An amplification mechanism, such as that of CRF modulation of the low altitude cloud cover is required.

So what does it mean?

First, it means that the IPCC cannot ignore anymore the fact that the sun has a large climatic effect on climate. Of course, there was plenty of evidence before, so I don’t expect this result to make any difference!

Second, given the consistency between the energy going into the oceans and the estimated forcing by the solar cycle synchronized cloud cover variations, it is unlikely that the solar forcing is not associated with the cloud cover variation.

Note that the most reasonable explanation to the cloud variations is that of the cosmic ray cloud link. By now there are many independent lines of evidence showing its existence (e.g., for a not so recent summary take a look here). That is, the cloud cover variations are controlled by an external lever, which itself is affected by solar activity.

Incidentally, talking about the oceans, Arthur C. Clarke made once a very cute observation:

References:

1) Nir J. Shaviv (2008); Using the oceans as a calorimeter to quantify the solar radiative forcing, J. Geophys. Res., 113, A11101, doi:10.1029/2007JA012989. Local Copy.

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

147 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
M Letts
April 15, 2009 11:38 am

To what degree could the small solar-amplifying increases in cloud cover that occur at solar minimum be nothing more than the simple result of the falling temperatures. Given the lag-time in the hydrological cycle between evaporation and precipitation, on average, the difference between the dewpoint temperature and the actual temperature would shrink with even a slight decrease in temperature that results from lower TSI at solar minimum. This could increase cloud cover and, thus, reflectance, leading to larger temperature changes than predicted. Of course, the reverse would occur at solar maximum, and these effects might be felt most strongly before re-equilibration (but not before changing the Earth’s oceanic, terrestrial and atmospheric heat content). In my personal opinion, Shaviv has provided a convincing case that ocean heat content changes more than expected on the basis of TSI. The link to cosmic radiation needs more development and I remain skeptical.

Dave Middleton
April 15, 2009 11:38 am

Replying to…
Leif Svalgaard (09:48:03) :
[…]
The magnetic field [and therefore the cosmic rays] now is just what it was a century ago, yet the sea level has risen 200 mm since then. Here is a plot of global sea level since 1870:
http://www.leif.org/research/Sea-Level-Change.png
and of the change from year to year [the red curve]. Since 1992 we have satellite data, shown as the light blue and pink curves.
There is no 11-year cycle in any of this. The power spectrum has no significant peak anywhere near the 11 years. One might therefore even question the basic premise for the article [figure 2]. Clearly some torture of the data must have been performed…

It’s not the 11-year cycle per se…It’s variations in the length and intensity of the Schwabe Cycle (nominally 11-year) that seem to be a good proxy for the total solar influence on climate cycles. There are several longer-period cycles that also vary in length and intensity in cyclical fashions. A convolution of the 87-year and 210-year cycles was shown to have a strong correlation to the well documented 1,470-year Pleistocene climate cycle (Braun (et. al.) 2005…http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7065/pdf/nature04121.pdf). Bond (1997) demonstrated evidence that the 1,470-year cycle continued beyond the Holocene.
Sea level has generally been rising since the end of the Little Ice Age (mid-1800’s). During the periods in which the Schwabe Cycle (~11-yr) lengthens, the Earth has cooled and sea level rise has slowed or stopped. During the periods in which the Schwabe Cycle shortens, the Earth warms and sea level rise accelerates. There seems to be a pretty strong correlation between the fluctuations in the solar cycles and the cosmic ray flux. There also seems to be a strong correlation between high energy cosmic radiation and low cloud cover and a strong correlation between the length of the Schwabe Cycle and temperature. Palle’ et. al. (2004) clearly showed the correlation between cosmic radiation, cloud cover and albedo…And they demonstrated that the radiative forcing potential of the resulting albedo changes was sufficient to explain most (if not all) of the observed warming in the late 20th century.

M Letts
April 15, 2009 11:42 am

Clarification: In the first sentence of the above message, it is the DECREASE in radiation intensity that gets ‘amplified’.

John Edmondson
April 15, 2009 11:44 am

Ceolfrith (11:07:11) :
O/T
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/5159086/New-warning-over-catastrophic-sea-level-rise-scientists-claim.html
I think the key word in this article is COULD. The sun COULD blow up next week, the planet COULD be hit by a meteor, Aliens COULD land and kill us all.
I suspect that Carbonistas are getting desperate and trying to scare people into something before “Mother Earth” shows us all what they really are.
I have just seen this, I calculate that this around 250,000 cubic miles of melting Ice. 2,500 cubic miles/year, Not very likely. Current implied rate = 250 cubic miles/ year (assuming all sea level rise is due to melting ice)
What disappoints me about the online Telegraph is that only some of the “journalism” can be commented on. Anything like the above mentioned piece is not something you can comment on. However this is the e-mail address for the Telegraph- dtnews@telegraph.co.uk. Try this it might wake them up to the drivel they sometimes allow in their otherwise excellent site.

Tonyb2
April 15, 2009 12:08 pm

Anthony
This may be slightly off topic but I thought it worth a mention. The International Ice Patrol started operations in 1912 as a result of the Titanic incident. Since that time they have measured two parameters – Icebergs below 48 degrees North and the length of the Iceberg season. These data are available in two files covering 1912-1961 and 1961 to the present ( this file does not go beyond 2002 and seems to error at that date). The files are
http://www.uscg-iip.org/history1.shtml
and
http://www.uscg-iip.org/general/history2.shtml
The berg data is very interesting showing peaks and troughs which are sort of regular which might correlate with solar cycles or other surface phenomemon such as the NAO and el nino etc. I’m afraid my stats is not up to this type of analysis but a simple xl charts shows these variations quite well. Of course these data are subject to a great deal of noise and circumstance such as torpedoing of one of the patrol vessels and the lack of data during periods of the two world wars and vastly different methods of collecting the data ( patrol vessels, patrol aircraft, simple radar and latterly much more sophisticated radar and possibly satellites). It is therefore surprising that there are any trends at all. May be one of your more adept bloggers might be able to make more of the information. Of particular note is the substantial increase in the number of bergs from about 1984 onward peaking again in the early 1980’s
Tony Berry

Tonyb2
April 15, 2009 12:10 pm

Apologies
the last line should read…. peaking again in the early 1990’s ( not 1980’s) :O(
Tony Berry

beng
April 15, 2009 12:21 pm

Leif won’t like that they used Lean’s outdated solar reconstruction. But unless I’m cuckoo, if Leif’s recon was used, it would mean that the climate sensitivity to solar input is even greater than Shaviv says (and thus lower CO2 sensitivity).

George E. Smith
April 15, 2009 12:22 pm

Well I found the Professor’s explanations to be interesting. I can’t comment on the accuracy of any data he presents; some others evidently can.
It certainly is plausible to me that there is a lot of energy stored in the ocean that came directly from the sun, and some other energy that came from Infra red back radiation from the atmosphere. Those two alone are treated totally differently by the ocean. Also one must consider that precipitation, of either snow or ice into the oceans is a source of negative energy (so-called latent heat).
As I have posted here many times; the solar energy is absorbed by the ocean almost as a black body absorber (about 0.97 emissivity), and propagates many tens of metres into the ocean with the solar spectrum peak energy wavelengths going deepest. The Professor mentions “vertical turbulent diffusion”. But he fails to mention a NON_TURBULENT vertical CONVECTION current that operates 24/7 day in and day out; due to the fact that sea water of greater than about 2.47% salinity always has a positive temperature coefficient of expansion, so the waters that are solar heated, expand and rise, where they get heated some more and keep on expanding and rising to the surface; and that convection trumps any conductive process (and likely turbulent mixing as well).
So the solar heating of the ocean results in the inexorable return of that energy to the surface (heat is NOT a noun); where not only radiation and conduction, but massive evaporation returns it to the atmosphere, where again convection takes over and transports it to higher altitudes, for loss to space.
The downward atmospheric back radiation in the long wave Infra red, is treated quite differently, in that it is absorbed in the top 10 microns of water, and results in prompt evaporation from that heated surface film; whereas the return of the solar energy is a slower process.
So I don’t see ANY physical process for pumping incoming energy into the oceanic depths. Yes in some places there are turnover processes that bring cooler water up from the depths.
So yes I believe there’s a lot of energy stored in the upper ocean layers, and I would be surprised if the amount didn’t vary all the time; but I don’t see that as any mechanism for AMPLIFYING the small (0.1%) change in TSI; which I personally don’t believe by itself has any influence on climate. Even with zero TSI change, the magnetic variations of the sun would affect the climate through the charged particle/cosmic ray/cloud mechanism. I’d like to see some scientific argument as to why cosmic rays/solar charged particles CANNOT influence earth’s climate; but don’t just tell me we see no change in cloud cover. Maybe we don’t; but then we don’t have a way of even monitoring cloud cover properly.
I have one final criticism of this paper; (but I’m interested in studying this paper more).
We have no network in place for monitoring the temperatures of the ocean layers that are the thermal energy store; that does not grossly violate the Nyquist Sampling Theorem, and Criterion; so I take with a grain of salt, anything anybody says about global measurements of such things; and that includes GISStemp and HADcrut. GISStemp is the application of some AlGorythm (to which I am not privy) to a set of data obtained from a tiny set of sensors, which fail the Nyquist test; so the GISStemp result applies only to that small set of sensors, and in no way represents the entire earth surface.
Yes I believe that the earth’s temperature range for the current solar orbit, and TSI is entirely regulated by the ocean/evaporation/cloud/precipitation cycle; but I don’t believe it has anything much to do with any variation in energy stored in the oceans.
In the sense used in the Prof’s essay “amplification” seems to be a euphemism for “Feedback”, and feedback is a highly overrated concept here.
Water by itself is perfectly capable of taking care of the temperature; without any assistance from the negligible amount of CO2 or any other GHG in the atmosphere.
George

M Letts
April 15, 2009 12:23 pm

It is also entirely possible that the fact that a best fit line through the sea level rise plot is well above the zero line is due to warming derived from the greenhouse effect, warming after the little ice age (air temp out of equilibrium with cooler ocean temps), or the Grand Maximum. Let the attacks from both sides begin below… 🙂

April 15, 2009 12:30 pm

John Edmondson (10:48:29) :
“There is no 11-year cycle in any of this. The power spectrum has no significant peak anywhere near the 11 years. One might therefore even question the basic premise for the article [figure 2]. Clearly some torture of the data must have been performed…”
Are you saying that the interplantery magnetic field does not follow the 11 year solar cycle?

No, I’m saying that there is no 11-year cycle in the Sea Level as Figure 2 of the present post alleges.
Bob H (11:10:36) :
How do you know that the magnetic field is the same as it was a century ago
http://www.leif.org/research/IAGA2008LS-final.pdf
Dave Middleton (11:38:17) :
It’s not the 11-year cycle per se…
You are not getting my point. Forget about the solar-climate party line, and consider only the purported solar cycle relation implied by figure 2. Do me a favor and go look at it. Then tell Shaviv that there is no solar cycle per se to see in his figure.
My point is that the actual sea level data does not jive with what he plots in any way, shape, or form, so the whole article is based in nothing.

April 15, 2009 12:57 pm

Alan from Australia (11:21:04) :
This is a very thoughtful study.
But not consistent with actual data…
The 140-year graph referred to by Leif Svalgaard is interesting in how the recent satellite altimetry data seagues beautifully into the longer tide-gauge plot.
The two series have different epochs so to bring them onto the same scale I calculate the difference in level for the time of overlap [1993-2001]. That difference is 108.0245 mm, so has been added to the satellite data.
nothing like the 2.9-3.3 mm per year typically given from satellite altimetry.
The 140-yr series has accelerated its change/yr. For 1987-2001 it was 3.22 mm/yr. The satellite series has for 1993-2008 a change/yr of 3.26 mm/yr. Very much the same.
where your data is from
for the tidal gauges:
http://www.cmar.csiro.au/sealevel/sl_data_cmar.html
Church & White, GRL, 33, L01602, 2006
for the satellite data:
http://sealevel.colorado.edu/results.php

EricH
April 15, 2009 1:02 pm

Great article. On first reading I understood every single word; by the time I got to sentence length ‘though I was struggling to understand them; as for paragraphs, forget it.
Action replay. Now for second and subsequent readings. I think I know what he is saying; I just want to understand it so that I can quote it.
Enjoy.

April 15, 2009 1:05 pm

beng (12:21:13) :
if Leif’s recon was used, it would mean that the climate sensitivity to solar input is even greater than Shaviv says (and thus lower CO2 sensitivity).
I can’t see how you make that conclusion unless you assume that whatever climate change there has been is due to a hardly changing Sun. It all hinges on that assumption. Which, BTW, is the original reason that I starting blogging, to fins out out why that was. There are three possibilities:
1) the sun has nothing to do with it
2) the sun has everything to do with it
3) the sun has something to do with it.
Various people I trust [e.g. Lean] lean towards 3) with some small forcing [10%]. Other people like 2) [with 50-100%]. The simplest explanation is 1). Personally, I have come to believe in 1) while accepting a 0.1C solar cycle change [which does not explain the long-term trend]. This has been a long process for me.

inferno
April 15, 2009 1:29 pm

The dominance of the Sun should have been obvious. If you calculate the proportions (correctly!) then it’s obvious co2 doesn’t have any effect worth discussing.
http://denialdepot.blogspot.com/2009/04/warming-from-sun-is-roughly.html

April 15, 2009 1:42 pm

To Leif Svalgaard:
Thanks for your response to my question. I did not realise that there had been such an acceleration of seal level rise.

Thom Scrutchin
April 15, 2009 1:49 pm

Leif Svalgaard (13:05:05) :
There is a well known proposition that sunspots correlate with temperature at a gross scale, starting in Adam Smiths time. Fewer sunspots mean cooler temperatures and in Smith’s case, higher wheat prices.
Sunspot minima, like Dalton and Maunder are associated with cooler or cold temperatures.
Being a supporter of possibility 1:
Do you dispute the proposition that there is a connection between sunspots and temperature?
Is there some other cause for this gross effect that just happens to correspond with the presence or absence of sunspots?

Flanagan
April 15, 2009 1:53 pm

Thanks inferno… Now thanks to you, we know the importance of a chemical species only depends on its mass
okaaaaaaaaaay
Fortunately enough, life on earth doesn’t depend on cO2.
Oops?

John Edmondson
April 15, 2009 2:13 pm

Leif Svalgaard (12:30:54) :
John Edmondson (10:48:29) :
“There is no 11-year cycle in any of this. The power spectrum has no significant peak anywhere near the 11 years. One might therefore even question the basic premise for the article [figure 2]. Clearly some torture of the data must have been performed…”
Are you saying that the interplantery magnetic field does not follow the 11 year solar cycle?
No, I’m saying that there is no 11-year cycle in the Sea Level as Figure 2 of the present post alleges.
Thanks Leif.
My point of view is that CO2 doubling will cause an increase of 2-3 F. No positive feedbacks are present , so the IPCC model is plain wrong. Decadal oscillations in Ocean current effects are present in the slow increase in Earth’s temp. This decadal oscillation has turned recently 2005, and is now on a downward path.
This recent post – Dr. Syun Akasofu on IPCC’s forecast accuracy – looked to be right on the money for me.
The solar cycle is the big unknown, all of the above assumed the sun was behaving normally. Maybe it is, but it does look very quiet. Too quiet,

George E. Smith
April 15, 2009 2:16 pm

A number of sources have stated that they don’t see an 11 year cycle in some of these climate events such as Leif states.
At least one other source whose name escapes me, however added, that while there wasn’t much of an 11 year effect, there did seem to be a 22-23 year effect; in other words they claimed there was at least a correlation link between the full magnetic soalr cycle, and I believe it was some sort of temperature cycle.
I have to admit; that I am not enthusiastic about the idea that sea level rise and fall should correlate with seither 11 or 22 year cycles of the sun; so I’m skeptical like Leif.
I think sea level cycles about which I know very little, are more related to the “Circulation” cycles, so are local climate phenomena, and not major global things like net energy gain or loss.
Some other things I am suspicious of is the notion that CO2 is well mixed in the atmosphere. The clever little CO2 pole to pole movie that Anthony posted here a coupla months ago showed avery great pole to pole discrepancy in CO2 cycling.
I don’t believe for a minute, that excess CO2 at the Arctic Ocean latitudes, which is about an 18-20 ppm annual amplitude, results in diffusion of CO2 under a normal concentration gradient driving force till it ends up at the south pole. That diffusion process has to bew way too slow for anything like that to happen; so I don’t believe there is much diffusion mixing going on.
Any transport of CO2 from one place to another has to be the result of mass transport; in other words convection currents of the ordinary atmosphere which bring the CO2 along for the ride.
And since its an annual cyclic event; there is no way it is ever in equilibrium.
I understand how diffusion of trace impurities diffuse in the solid state; that after all is how all our ICs were originally made, and many still are.
And no such diffusion process can be happening to any great extent that is of any climate significance in the atmosphere.
So i’m prepared to accept that convection cyclic mixing processes take place; but true diffusion is not too important if at all.
George

James P
April 15, 2009 2:31 pm

“That difference is 108.0245mm” – Leif (12:57:33)
Now we’re measuring sea level to less than a micron? Wow!

April 15, 2009 2:33 pm

Many thanks, Professor Shaviv. Great work, great article.
The answer is the Sun, for sure. You are telling us how.

kim
April 15, 2009 2:39 pm

Leif at 13:05:05
I certainly agree that we still do not know the effect of the sun on climate, because we have no mechanism nailed down. But really, isn’t it more likely than not that something cycling in the sun has a greater effect on the climate than zero?
I’ll beat my tired horse once more. If the mechanism is through the effect of cosmic rays on clouds, and if cosmic ray peaks alternate from sharp to broadened from one solar cycle to the next, and if there are three solar cycles per phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, then might not those phases alternate heating and cooling, as they do, because of the effect of those cosmic rays on clouds? Left wanting in this supposition is how the shape of the peak of the cosmic rays can effect clouds, but otherwise, the bare bones of a theory is there. You’ve pooh poohed this in the past, and I’m not completely sure why.
==================================

stumpy
April 15, 2009 2:43 pm

Congratulations on an excellent and potentially influencial paper, its certainly provides support to the work of other scientists who think outside of the IPCC concensus i.e. Svensmark, Scafetta & West etc…

April 15, 2009 3:03 pm

There is a good deal in that study which is a reworking of the basic concepts already expressed by me over the past year on various sites including this one and in more detail here:
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=1487
My earliest articles on the subject are now reaching a viewing figure of 20,000 on one site alone and have been distributed by republication worldwide and translated into other languages.
He extends those ideas to support the cosmic ray aspect and I remain open minded about that but it is not essential to the proposition that all the global changes in air temperature which we have observed can adequately be explained by the solar/ocean combination.
At present to my mind the solar changes (and by implication the cosmic ray changes) do not show an adequate match to changes in global temperature trends.
Combining solar with ocean does improve the match which suggests that the ocean cycles are in control rather than the solar cycles.
I think the answer is that on timescales of 100 years or more the solar influence provides a background trend (possibly via the effect of cosmic rays on cloudiness) but on multidecadal time scales the ocean cycles are the primary driver and account for most of what we see on the scale of a human lifetime.
The oceans could also affect cloudiness because as ocean SSTs fall they cool the air above and more cloud condenses out. As ocean SSTs warm the air above the water the vapour carrying capacity of the air increases and cloudiness declines whilst the warming process continues.
So, on longer timescales solar dominates. On shorter timescales oceans dominate and the GHGs are an irrelevance.
The oceanic Hot Water Bottle Effect sets global air temperature and not the Greenhouse Effect in the air.
Time wil reveal all but at least the real issues are now in play and being taken seriously by the professionals and increasingly the media.

Verified by MonsterInsights