The oceans as a calorimeter and solar amplification

For those who don’t know, a calorimeter is a device to measure heat capacity. There is an entire science called calorimetry devoted to this measurement. Scottish physician and scientist Joseph Black, who was the first to recognize the distinction between heat and temperature, is claimed to be founder of calorimetry. Interestingly, Black studied properties of Carbon Dioxide. One of his experiments involved placing a flame and mice into the carbon dioxide. Because both entities died, Black concluded that the air was not breathable. He named it ‘fixed air’ – Anthony

Reposted from Sciencebits by Professor Nir J. Shaviv, Racah Institute of Physics

I few months ago, I had a paper accepted in the Journal of Geophysical Research. Since its repercussions are particularly interesting for the general public, I decided to write about it. I would have written earlier, but as I wrote before, I have been quite busy. I now have time, sitting in my hotel in Lijiang (Yunnan, China).

Lijiang Scene

A scene in Lijiang near my hotel, where most of this post was written. More pics here.

A calorimeter is a device which measures the amount of heat given off in a chemical or physical reaction. It turns out that one can use the Earth’s oceans as one giant calorimeter to measure the amount of heat Earth absorbs and reemits every solar cycle. Two questions probably pop in your mind,

a) Why is this interesting?

and,

b) How do you do so?

Let me answer.

One of the raging debates in the climate community relates to the question of whether there is any mechanism amplifying solar activity. That is, are the solar synchronized climatic variations that we see (e.g., take a look at fig. 1 here) due to changes of just the solar irradiance, or, are they due to some effect which amplifies the solar-climate link. In particular, is there an amplification of some non-thermal component of the sun? (e.g., UV, solar magnetic field, solar wind or others which have much larger variations than the 0.1% variations of the solar irradiance). This question has interesting repercussions to the question of global warming, which is why the debate is so fierce.

If only solar irradiance is the cause of the solar-related climate variations, it would imply that the small solar variations cause large temperature variations on Earth, and therefore that Earth has a very sensitive climate. If on the other hand there is some amplification mechanism, it would imply that solar variations induce much larger variations in the radiative budget, and that the observed temperature variations can therefore be explained with a smaller climate sensitivity.

Since global warming alarmists want a large sensitivity, they adamantly fight any evidence which shows that there might be an amplification mechanism. Clearly, a larger climate sensitivity would imply that the same CO2 increase over the 21st century would cause a larger temperature increase, that is, allow for a more frightening scenario, more need for climate research and climate action, and more need for research money for them. (I am being overly cynical here, but it some cases it is not far from the truth). Others don’t even need research money, don’t really care about the science (and certainly don’t understand it), but make money from riding the wave anyway (e.g., a former vice president, without naming names).

On the other end of the spectrum, politically driven skeptics want to burn fossil fuels relentlessly. A real global warming problem would force them to change their plans. Therefore, any argument which would imply a small climate sensitivity and a lower predicted 21st century temperature increase is favored by them. Just like their opponents, they do so without actually understanding the science.

I of course, don’t get money from oil companies. In fact, I am not a republican (hey, I am even the head of a workers union). I care about the environment (I grew up in a solar house) and think there are a dozen good reasons why we should burn less fossil fuels, but as you will see below, global warming is not one of them. In fact, I am driven by something strange… the quest for the knowledge!

With this intro, you can realize why answering the solar amplification question is very important (besides being a genuinely interesting scientific question), and why answering it (either way) would make some people really annoyed.

So, what do the oceans tell us?

Over the 11 or so year solar cycle, solar irradiance changes by typically 0.1%. i.e., about 1 W/m2 relative to the solar constant of 1360 W/m2. Once one averages for the whole surface of earth (i.e., divide by 4) and takes away the reflected component (i.e., times 1 minus the albedo), it comes out to be about 0.17 W/m2 variations relative to the 240 W/m2. Thus, if only solar irradiance variations are present, Earth’s sensitivity has to be pretty high to explain the solar-climate correlations (see the collapsed box below).

However, if solar activity is amplified by some mechanism (such as hypersensitivity to UV, or indirectly through sensitivity to cosmic ray flux variations), then in principle, a lower climate sensitivity can explain the solar-climate links, but it would mean that a much larger heat flux is entering and leaving the system every solar cycle.

The IPCC’s small solar forcing and the emperor’s new clothes.

With the years, the IPCC has tried to downgrade the role of the sun. The reason is stated above – a large solar forcing would necessarily imply a lower anthropogenic effect and lower climate sensitivity. This includes perpetually doubting any non-irradiance amplification mechanism, and even emphasizing publications which downgrade long term variations in the irradiance. In fact, this has been done to such an extent, that clear solar/climate links such as the Mounder minimum are basically impossible to explain with any reasonable climate sensitivity. Here are the numbers.

According to the IPCC (AR4), the solar irradiance is responsible for a net radiative forcing increase between the Maunder Minimum and today of 0.12 W/m2 (0.06 to 0.60 at 90% confidence). We know however that the Maunder minimum was about 1°C colder (e.g., from direct temperature measurements of boreholes – e.g., this summary). This requires a global sensitivity of 1.0/0.12°C/(W/m2). Since doubling the CO2 is thought to induce a 3.8 W/m2 change in the radiative forcing, irradiance/climate correlations require a CO2 doubling temperature of ΔTx2 ~ 31°C !! Besides being at odds with other observations, any sensitivity larger than ΔTx2 ~ 10°C would cause the climate to be unconditionally unstable (see box here).

Clearly, the IPCC scientists don’t comprehend that their numbers add up to a totally inconsistent picture. Of course, the real story is that solar forcing, even just the irradiance change, is larger than the IPCC values.

Now, is there a direct record which measures the heat flux going into the climate system? The answer is that over the 11-year solar cycle, a large fraction of the flux entering the climate system goes into the oceans. However, because of the high heat capacity of the oceans, this heat content doesn’t change the ocean temperature by much. And as a consequence, the oceans can be used as a “calorimeter” to measure the solar radiative forcing. Of course, the full calculation has to include the “calorimetric efficiency” and the fact that the oceans do change their temperature a little (such that some of the heat is radiated away, thereby reducing the calorimetric efficiency).

It turns out that there are three different types of data sets from which the ocean heat content can derived. The first data is is that of direct measurements using buoys. The second is the ocean surface temperature, while the third is that of the tide gauge record which reveals the thermal expansion of the oceans. Each one of the data sets has different advantages and disadvantages.

The ocean heat content, is a direct measurement of the energy stored in the oceans. However, it requires extended 3D data, the holes in which contributed systematic errors. The sea surface temperature is only time dependent 2D data, but it requires solving for the heat diffusion into the oceans, which of course has its uncertainties (primarily the vertical turbulent diffusion coefficient). Last, because ocean basins equilibrate over relatively short periods, the tide gauge record is inherently integrative. However, it has several systematic uncertainties, for example, a non-neligible contribution from glacial meting (which on the decadal time scale is still secondary).

Nevertheless, the beautiful thing is that within the errors in the data sets (and estimate for the systematics), all three sets give consistently the same answer, that a large heat flux periodically enters and leaves the oceans with the solar cycle, and this heat flux is about 6 to 8 times larger than can be expected from changes in the solar irradiance only. This implies that an amplification mechanism necessarily exists. Interestingly, the size is consistent with what would be expected from the observed low altitude cloud cover variations.

Here are some figures from the paper:

fig. 1: Sea Surface Temperature anomaly, Sea Level Rate, Net Oceanic Heat Flux, the TSI anomaly and Cosmic Ray flux variations. In the top panel are the inverted Haleakala/Huancayo neutron monitor data (heavy line, dominated by cosmic rays with a primary rigidity cutoff of 12.9 GeV), and the TSI anomaly (TSI – 1366 W/m2 , thin line, and based on Lean [2000]). The next panel depicts the net oceanic heat flux, averaged over all the oceans (thin line) and the more complete average heat flux in the Atlantic region (Lon 80°W to 30°E, thick line), based on Ishii et al. [2006]. The next two panels plot the SLR and SST anomaly. The thin lines are the two variables with their linear trends removed. In the thick lines, the ENSO component is removed as well (such that the cross-correlation with the ENSO signal will vanish).

fig 2: Sea Level vs. Solar Activity. Sea level change rate over the 20th century is based on 24 tide gauges previously chosen by Douglas [1997] for the stringent criteria they satisfy (solid line, with 1-σ statistical error range denoted with the shaded region). The rates are compared with the total solar irradiance variations Lean [2000] (dashed line, with the secular trends removed). Note that before 1920 or after 1995, there are about 10 stations or less such that the uncertainties increase.

fig 3: Summary of the “calorimetric” measurements and expectations for the average global radiative forcing Fglobal. Each of the 3 measurements suffers from different limitations. The ocean heat content (OHC) is the most direct measurement but it suffers from completeness and noise in the data. The heat flux obtained from the sea surface temperature (SST) variations depends on the modeling of the heat diffusion into the ocean, here the diffusion coefficient is the main source of error. As for the sea level based flux, the largest uncertainty is due to the ratio between the thermal contribution and the total sea level variations. The solid error bars are the global radiative forcing obtained while assuming that similar forcing variations occur over oceans and land. The dotted error bars assume that the radiative forcing variations are only over the oceans. These measurements should be compared with two different expectations. The TSI is the expected flux if solar variability manifests itself only as a variable solar constant. The “Low Clouds+TSI” point is the expected oceanic flux based on the observed low altitude cloud cover variations, which appear to vary in sync with the solar cycle (while assuming several approximations). Evidently, the TSI cannot explain the observed flux going into the ocean. An amplification mechanism, such as that of CRF modulation of the low altitude cloud cover is required.

So what does it mean?

First, it means that the IPCC cannot ignore anymore the fact that the sun has a large climatic effect on climate. Of course, there was plenty of evidence before, so I don’t expect this result to make any difference!

Second, given the consistency between the energy going into the oceans and the estimated forcing by the solar cycle synchronized cloud cover variations, it is unlikely that the solar forcing is not associated with the cloud cover variation.

Note that the most reasonable explanation to the cloud variations is that of the cosmic ray cloud link. By now there are many independent lines of evidence showing its existence (e.g., for a not so recent summary take a look here). That is, the cloud cover variations are controlled by an external lever, which itself is affected by solar activity.

Incidentally, talking about the oceans, Arthur C. Clarke made once a very cute observation:

References:

1) Nir J. Shaviv (2008); Using the oceans as a calorimeter to quantify the solar radiative forcing, J. Geophys. Res., 113, A11101, doi:10.1029/2007JA012989. Local Copy.

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147 Comments
ralph ellis
April 16, 2009 1:17 am

.
Is there a graph for magnetic flux variation? If Global Warming episodes are linked to Sunspot activity, then surely magnetic flux must be a key issue.
Sorry, I am having trouble loading these diagrams, so I cannot see exactly what they represent.
.

ralph ellis
April 16, 2009 1:26 am

.
>>Why would the Earth-Solar distance affect nuclear decay rates? See:
For that, you might have to resurrect the concept of the Aether. I’ve always liked the possibility of an Aether and I don’t know why everyone despised it.

April 16, 2009 3:42 am

JoeL (22:40:15) :
Shaviv writes: “Note that unlike other calculations of the sea level change rate, this analysis was done by first differentiating individual station data and then adding the different stations. This can give rise to spurious long term trends (which are not important here), but ensure that there are no spurious jumps from gaps in station data. The data is then 1-2-1 averaged to remove annual noise.”
It would seem to be impossible to do this with the satellite data, except for the 1-2-1 averaging, which yields:
http://www.leif.org/research/Sea-Level-Change-2.png
I still see no solar cycle effect.
A robust result should not depend critically on whether the differentiation is done before or after the averaging of stations.

Dave Middleton
April 16, 2009 4:19 am

Replying to…
Leif Svalgaard (15:54:31) :
[…]
Maybe I should clarify: if there is no first order effect, there hardly can be no second order effect. The feedback would work on the first order effect as well, but, as usual, if one wants to peddle something, there is an obligation of demonstrating it, instead of saying ‘isn’t is possible that…’. As Al Gore says: “if you don’t know what you a talking about, anything is possible…’

If the first order effect is the modulation of cloud cover, then there can be huge second order effects. TSI does not explain the roughly 55-year warming/cooling cycle since the end of the Little Ice Age or the lower frequency warming component since ~1850…But the “length” of the Schwabe Cycle clearly correlates quite well with that 55-year oscillation…
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k247/dhm1353/UAH_LowerTrop_12_78to11_08_SSC_Leng.jpg
I’ve only “played around” with these data in Excel a bit…But it clearly looks like some convolution of TSI and the Schwabe Cycle length would have a very strong correlation with the temperature data…particularly the satellite-derived data. While it’s true that the radiative forcing of TSI alone can’t explain the warming; albedo clearly can explain most (if not all) of the warming and cooling. SKY clearly showed that high-energy cosmic radiation (in the form of muons) can enhance cloud cover. CLOUD will be able to test this theory under varying conditions (next year IIRC). Palle’ has shown that sufficient albedo changes occurred in the late 20th century to provide more than enough radiative forcing.
It’s just a matter of time before the evidence for the solar-driven model and the cooling over the next 20 years force the paradigm to shift.

April 16, 2009 6:35 am

The whole debate here has come down to a data issue that should be very, very easy to resolve, but we need Shaviv. I’m going to post on his blog “can you give the exact data and method for your calculation of sea level fluctuations” and indicate to him what Leif has drawn on, and Leif’s graph of MSL rise and fluctuations in rate of rise – since nobody has done that yet.
My guess is that Shaviv can answer Leif. But we need to see it – and I could be wrong.
Another factor “under our noses” AFAICT: sea levels are surely always going to rise on balance, at the rate at which the ocean floor deposit accumulates. Or have I missed something? Now there is another contributory factor: detritus from space. From what I’ve read, these could be cumulatively significant over long periods of time, particularly CO2 and H2O.

April 16, 2009 7:37 am

Dave Middleton (04:19:44) :
But the “length” of the Schwabe Cycle clearly correlates quite well with that 55-year oscillation…
I don’t think so, here is cycle length and temperature anomalies:
http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%20Lengths%20and%20Temperatures.png
and averaged over cycles:
http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%20Length%20Temperature%20Correlation.pdf
The temperature data has a clear upwards trend, the cycle lengths do not. If I remove the trend, I get the green curves, and it has also no significant correlation with the cycle lengths. Whatever correlation there is [R^2=0.2] is in the direction of longer cycles => higher temps. Opposite of what is sometimes claimed: long cycles => cold climate.
Note that there are TWO curves of everything. This is because you can measure cycle length from min to min or from max to max. I have done both. Does not make any difference.
Palle’ has shown that sufficient albedo changes occurred in the late 20th century to provide more than enough radiative forcing.
But also that the albedo does not follow the solar cycle:
http://www.leif.org/research/albedo.png

kuhnkat
April 16, 2009 8:37 am

Leif stated,
“What I don’t get is why we are even discussing the solar cycle signal in sea level change, when there is none:
http://www.leif.org/research/Sea-Level-Change.png
Well, you disagree with the McLean data, I disagree with the “Official” sea level data.
Also, a comment about the Solar Wind’s current low level, its effect on Cosmic Rays and the influence of the Solar Magnetic Field might be in order to keep everything reasonable.

Dave Middleton
April 16, 2009 8:40 am

Replying to…
Leif Svalgaard (07:37:21) :
Dave Middleton (04:19:44) :
But the “length” of the Schwabe Cycle clearly correlates quite well with that 55-year oscillation…
I don’t think so, here is cycle length and temperature anomalies:
http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%20Lengths%20and%20Temperatures.png
and averaged over cycles:
http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%20Length%20Temperature%20Correlation.pdf
The temperature data has a clear upwards trend, the cycle lengths do not. If I remove the trend, I get the green curves, and it has also no significant correlation with the cycle lengths. Whatever correlation there is [R^2=0.2] is in the direction of longer cycles => higher temps. Opposite of what is sometimes claimed: long cycles => cold climate.
[…]
Try reversing the y-axis for the sunspot cycle length…And use the minima. The correlation is very clear (visually anyway). If you generate a 6th-order polynomial fit to the minima and plot it against a combination of HadCRUT3 and UAH/MSU Lower Trop…the correlation is pretty clear.
It’s obvious that you have put a lot of work into this subject…How do you account for the cooling trend (particularly on the UAH/RSS data-sets) since 2005-2006?

April 16, 2009 9:57 am

Dave Middleton (08:40:49) :
Try reversing the y-axis for the sunspot cycle length…And use the minima. The correlation is very clear (visually anyway).
Reversing the axis does not change the correlation:
http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%20Length%20Temperature%20Correlation.pdf
How do you account for the cooling trend (particularly on the UAH/RSS data-sets) since 2005-2006?
First, a few years do not make a climate trend. Second, I don’t have to account for a dubious trend to say the correlation is poor [and in any event in the opposite direction: long cycle => warm climate]

April 16, 2009 10:11 am

kuhnkat (08:37:49) :
Well, you disagree with the Lean data, I disagree with the “Official” sea level data.
Even Judith Lean disagrees with her 2000 version, and we both have good reasons for doing so. What are your good reasons for disagreeing with the ‘official’ [and satellite] data?
Also, a comment about the Solar Wind’s current low level, its effect on Cosmic Rays and the influence of the Solar Magnetic Field might be in order to keep everything reasonable.
This blog has dozens of such comments. Look around. A short comment is that the cosmic rays and the magnetic field return to about the same values at every solar minimum.

kim
April 16, 2009 10:24 am

It is difficult, perhaps impossible, to show a climate effect in phase with the cycles of the sun. Perhaps the mechanism by which the sun directs the climate is not a direct function of the cycles, or that it is in phase with groups of cycles rather than any single one. Given the modulating by immense processes, such as the oceanic oscillations, it is likely that the mechanism won’t be on such a small scale as 11 year cycles.
================================

kim
April 16, 2009 10:32 am

Dave Middleton at 08:40:49
I account for the recent cooling by the flipping of the PDO to its cooling phase, and on that basis I expect global cooling for another 20 years. I’m much impressed by Tsonis’s recent work, correlating, and explaining the temperature record for the last century with the coupling and uncoupling of a number of natural cycles, including four oceanic oscillations. I believe he expects near term cooling, then warming, then cooling again. If, as I believe, the sun directs the climate, and if it does so through oceanic oscillations, we may well get a chance, if the sun enters a Grand or Baby Grand Minimum, to tease out the relationship between what is happening in the sun and in the oceanic oscillations.
Lots of ifs there, huh Leif?
=================================

Dave Middleton
April 16, 2009 11:16 am

Replying to…
kim (10:32:06) :
Dave Middleton at 08:40:49
I account for the recent cooling by the flipping of the PDO to its cooling phase, and on that basis I expect global cooling for another 20 years. I’m much impressed by Tsonis’s recent work, correlating, and explaining the temperature record for the last century with the coupling and uncoupling of a number of natural cycles, including four oceanic oscillations. I believe he expects near term cooling, then warming, then cooling again. If, as I believe, the sun directs the climate, and if it does so through oceanic oscillations, we may well get a chance, if the sun enters a Grand or Baby Grand Minimum, to tease out the relationship between what is happening in the sun and in the oceanic oscillations.
Lots of ifs there, huh Leif?

I come up with about 20 more years of cooling too…
Do you suppose that the PDO, QDO and other climatic oscillations might just correlate to some perturbation of solar cycles?
Let’s just hope that we aren’t in a Dalton-style (or worse) solar cycle…We have a lot more people to feed now than we did in 1814.
I tend to think those deep solar nadirs only happen on the 1,470-year scale (MWP-LIA)…But, it’s sure starting to look like this cooling phase will be significantly cooler than 1942-1978.

Jeff at UCLA
April 16, 2009 2:49 pm

Why Celsius and not Kelvin?
Can anyone explain to me what good reason AGW advocating climate scientists use Celsius rather than Kelvin when employing statistics to variations in solar irradiance and global temperature change? Irradiance is measured up from zero, a dead sun. Kelvin’s 0 K is absolute zero, a good match to say the least. Celsius and Kelvin share the same intervals, but Celsius’ adjusts 0 °C to a human artefact, an interest in the freezing point of water at sea level, at one standard atmospheric pressure. Solar irrandiance measurements are not adjusted in any manner to the freezing of water on Earth at any elevation.
Mr. Shaviv notes above that solar irradiance varies about 0.1 % over the eleven year solar cycle. Assume a global mean surface temperature of 14 0 °C, the 20th century mean suggested by the US Government . If we apply “Celsius”: [+]14 0 °C x .001 = .014 [+]°C. .014 0 °C is a small amount, much less than recent temperature change, and on its face would seem to preclude solar irradiance as the primary driver of global temperature change.
However, let’s use the Kelvin scale. Assume a global mean surface temperature of 287.15 K (14 + 273.15). 287.15 K x .001 = .287 K. Tell me why a nearly .3 degree Kelvin (and Celsius) temperature change caused by solar irradiance variation does not support solar irradiance variation as the primary driver of recent global termperature change? Employing Celsius here rather than Kelvin can understate the effect of solar irradiance variation by a factor around 20. Or use IPCC AR4 Scientific Assessment’s .08 %. 287.15 K x .0008 = .23 K. Still, a significant number.
Above it is stated global temperatures during the Maunder Minimum were 1.0 °C cooler than today. I am not a heliophysicist, but I do not find it implausible that the longer term variation could be about triple the recent, .3 %. If the IPCC AR4’s discussion of recent irradiance levels at solar minimums in the past two or three solar cycles were almost identical, and this is implicitly argued to extrapolate that irradiance centuries ago could not be a tiny bit more different, I am not convinced.
So, does my argument absolve solar irradiance variation as a major, or the primary, driver of global temperature change without amplifications? (Not saying amplifications do not have some effect).
Why Celsius and not Kelvin? Feel free to criticize my post in whole or in part.

April 16, 2009 3:04 pm

kim (10:32:06) :
Lots of ifs there, huh Leif?
Too many for my taste, and the ‘sun’ ifs are not really needed, the PDO seems enough for me.

April 16, 2009 3:42 pm

Jeff at UCLA (14:49:37) :
However, let’s use the Kelvin scale. Assume a global mean surface temperature of 287.15 K (14 + 273.15). 287.15 K x .001 = .287 K.
Because radiation, S, and temperature, T, are related by Stefan-Boltzmann’s law S = a T^4, changes are related thus: dS/S = 4 dT/T or the temperature change is one 1/4 of the radiation change, i.e. 0.1%/4 = 0.025% of 287K = 0.07 K which is small enough to be neglected.

kim
April 16, 2009 4:44 pm

Leif at 15:04:52
It really does seem to kind of come down to whether the oceans’ heat content oscillates on its own, or in response to something from the sun. We shall see, and eventually understand.
==============================================

Dave Middleton
April 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Replying to…
Leif Svalgaard (15:04:52) :
[…]
Too many for my taste, and the ’sun’ ifs are not really needed, the PDO seems enough for me.

I’ve only been reading and participating in the WUWT comments section for a couple of weeks; so forgive me if I’m asking a question that you’ve already answered…
What do you think drives the PDO? Changes in THC? Or do you think there’s some other mechanism?

April 16, 2009 9:59 pm

Dave Middleton (20:22:32) :
What do you think drives the PDO? Changes in THC? Or do you think there’s some other mechanism?
Every complex system with non-linear interactions oscillate all by themselves without any obvious external driver, so I really don’t know if there is one or not.

April 17, 2009 12:01 am

Hi guys,
First, I was asked by a few to reply to Lief’s claims that I tortured the data.
So there is a long reply on my website.
Lief also further said (at 03:42) that he doesn’t see the 11-year cycle in the satellite data. Well, the data barely covers a cycle, and it so happens that with the exception of the 1997 super el-niño, there is a clear trend which is consistent with the data: 1994-1995 low rate solar minimum, 2001-2002 high rate solar maximum, and 2007-8 low rate again at solar minimum. Of course, there is a lot of short term variability, but the signal is there.
This data appears already in the original paper (look at the inset in fig. 6).
Nir

April 17, 2009 12:01 am

Shaviv did respond, on his own blog
Torquemada – the data torturer
On April 17th, 2009 shaviv says:
Yes, I pulled finger nails until the data said “I give up, I give up!”
o.k., now seriously.
In order to get the cleanest data I used the 24 tide gauges chosen by Douglas 1997 for different stringent criteria (e.g., in geologically stable locations, long records, consistent with other gauges nearby, etc). I used someone else’s tide gauges so that I could not be accused of cherry picking.
Secondly, because I am not interested in long term trends, but I am interested in short term derivatives, I treated the data differently than what other people do. Instead of averaging the station heights and then differentiating, I first differentiated the data for each station and then added the derivatives. The reason is that this way I avoid getting spurious jumps from the start or end of individual station data. Because it can give rise to spurious long term trends and because I don’t care about long term trends, I simply removed any linear trend from the data.
In the graph from 1870 that Lief Svalgaard points to, one cannot see the 11-year signal because the latter only amounts to a few cm amplitude (3.5 mm/yr!). It obviously drowns in the annual noise or the long term trends in Leif’s particular graph. Note that at least over the past 50 years, Holgate sees consistently the same 11-year variations in the data (e.g., referenced here). Of course, because he uses a lot of lower quality stations (177) and/or is not careful to first differentiate and then add the tidal gauge data, he sees somewhat different variations before 1950, than what I find. (Of course, this is not a problem because he does not care about 11-year variations). Anyway, did Holgate torture his data too?
Oh, and the fact that Lean 2000 is used for the TSI is totally meaningless. The correlation with any signal synchronized with the 11-year solar cycle would give the same result. Note that I removed any long term trends from the tide data and from the solar proxies (whether TSI or cosmic rays).

April 17, 2009 12:04 am

I hope my repost of Shaviv’s response came through – cannot see the normal “awaiting moderation”

April 17, 2009 12:35 am

Nir Shaviv (00:01:06) :
First, I was asked by a few to reply to Lief’s claims that I tortured the data.
The particular torture you inflicted on the data is linear, so it shouldn’t matter in which order you do the differentiation and the averaging unless you have large data gaps, and why pick stations with such large gaps, when there are many to pick from? And there is cherry picking in picking the cherry that others have picked: of all the possible ones you could have picked, you did pick one for some reason.
1994-1995 low rate solar minimum, 2001-2002 high rate solar maximum, and 2007-8 low rate again at solar minimum
1994-1995 was not minimum, the high values at 1996-1997 were, and 2007-2008 was not minimum, but the high values of 2008-2009 were at minimum.
At any rate, if data torture is needed, the result is likely to be spurious. A clear signal will show up in almost any selection of stations.
And the change dL/dt should correlate with dTSI/dt, not with TSI itself [or whatever solar parameter is used]. If it is meaningless to use Lean’s TSI rather than any other solar measure, why not simply use the sunspot number? Using TSI gives the impression [deliberate?] that there is physics behind this, rather than just a meaningless [sic] measure.

kim
April 17, 2009 3:17 am

Leif 21:59:57
I don’t quite understand. You say that every complex system with non-linear interactions(CSWNLI) oscillate without an external driver, yet you don’t know whether this one(the climate or PDO) has one or not. I thought at first you were implying that such CSWNLI never have an external driver, thus can’t have one. On second reading, I’m coming around to thinking that you are merely being agnostic; that just because you don’t know of a CSWNLI with an external driver doesn’t mean there can’t be one with an external driver. Is my second interpretation correct? In other words, do you think it is possible that the PDO has an external driver, or not?
I suspect your answer will be that it is possible, only that there is no proof that the external driver is the sun, or any proof that it is anything else, either.
And Nir at 00:01:06 and Leif at 00:35:26. My, this is getting interesting. Surely, if the signal is there, it should be demonstrable.
===============================

kim
April 17, 2009 3:28 am

More late night speculation: Might not it be possible for a CSWNLI to have an external driver, better, an effector, that is not in phase with the oscillations? If such a thing were possible, it might not show its signal very easily.
===============================================