The Children’s Coalition’s insane war on natural gas
By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
On the very evening when the first October snow in 74 years was falling outside in Parliament Square, the Mother of Parliaments went gaga and nodded through the Climate Change Act 2008 – aptly described as the least justifiable and most expensive law ever to be inflicted on the British people –with only three gallant dissenters. The majority was one of the largest for any Act of Parliament.
Now the red herrings are coming home to roost. The staggering cost of the near-universal scientific illiteracy to which half a century of Marxist State education has reduced even the governing class is becoming all too painfully apparent.
“Ed” Davey, the daftly-titled “Secretary of State for Climate Change”, a “Liberal” “Democrat” [a.k.a. loony-Left] cabinet minister in the Children’s Coalition which – thanks in no small part to its suicidal climate policies – has run up a larger debt in five years than all previous British Governments added together, has just announced the kiddiwinks’ latest certifiable policy.
Beyond-bankrupt Britain – once the world’s economic powerhouse – has become the world’s economic madhouse. For “Ed” is going to abolish the use of natural gas in the industries and homes of Britain. Just like that.
Target for completion of this latest insanity – less than two decades from today. About half the nation cooks or heats its home with gas. By Government fiat, those households will soon be compelled to switch to far more costly and far less efficient electric heating, whether they can afford it or not.
Naturally, there will also be a huge capital cost to overstretched taxpayers, as the nation’s extensive and expensive gas network is pointlessly ripped up, as the gas-fired power stations that have only recently replaced a large part of our coal-fired power generation network are torn down, and as the nation is carpeted with useless, bird-blending, bat-blatting windmills. Already, 60% of Scotland’s landscape has windmills scarring it.
The tiny tots are going to expand the network of dismal, unstable, loss-making windmills massively. To pay for it, they will charge the average household an extra $400 a year on top of the massive energy price hikes they have already inflicted.
They are also going to install 1.2 GW of new nuclear capacity each year (the equivalent of two nuclear submarines). But – insanity upon insanity – the low-spec, civilian-grade reactors they are going to buy from Hitachi cost six times as much as the high-spec, military-grade Rolls Royce reactors in our Trident submarines.
When I asked Rolls Royce whether, in these circumstances, they planned to enter the thrusting new UK market for civilian nuclear electricity generation, I got a curt – and understandable – No. The pinstripe-suited voice quivering down the telephone conveyed ill-concealed impatience at the increasingly bizarre conduct of the Children’s Coalition.
What is worse, not only gas but also gasoline is to be phased out. All cars are to become electric by the 2040s. Just like that.
On past form, I had anticipated something as half-witted as this. In September’s Energy and Environment, in a paper outlining the many errors of the IPCC, I included a short account of the “economics” of the toddlers’ subsidies to electric vehicles. It has been much repeated, though on the evidence I don’t suppose anybody in the Romper Room at the Department of Climate Madness has learned to read yet, so they won’t have seen it. Here it is.
Deferment of the date of onset of net welfare loss
There has been no global warming this century. If the warming were to resume immediately at the mean rate of 0.14 K decade–1 observed in the past 30 years, by 2035 only 0.28 K warming would have occurred. If the warming rate were to rise by as much as half thereafter and were to persist throughout the remainder of the century, warming of little more than 1.1 K would have occurred by 2100.
Since 0.9 K warming has occurred since 1750 (Central England Temperature Record), the 2 K threshold beyond which we are told a net climate-related cost begins to arise may well not be crossed until the end of this century. A slow rate of warming is less damaging than a rapid rate, so even after 2100 the net disbenefit from the warming may be insignificant.
Should precautions be taken in any event?
Whether mitigation measures should be attempted in any event is an economic question, answered by investment appraisal. The UK’s $8333-per-auto subsidy for electric cars will serve as an example. The two initial conditions for the appraisal are the fraction of global CO2 emissions a mitigation measure is intended to abate, and the cost of the measure.
Typical gasoline-powered auto engines are approximately 27% efficient. Typical fossil-fueled generating stations are 50% efficient, transmission to end user is 67% efficient, battery charging is 90% efficient and the auto’s electric motor is 90% efficient, so that the fuel efficiency of an electric car is also 27%. However, the electric car requires 30% more power per mile traveled to move the mass of its batteries.
CO2 emissions from domestic transport account for 24% of UK CO2 emissions, and cars, vans, and taxis represent 90% of road transport (DfT, 2013). Assuming 80% of fuel use is by these autos, they account for 19.2% of UK CO2 emissions. Conversion to electric power, 61% of which is generated by fossil fuels in the UK, would abate 39% of 19.2% (i.e. 7.5%) of UK CO2 emissions.
However, the battery-weight penalty would be 30% of 19.2% of 61%: i.e. 3.5% of UK CO2 emissions. The net saving from converting all UK cars, vans, and taxis to electricity, therefore, would be 4% of UK CO2 emissions, which are 1.72% of global CO2 emissions, abating 0.07% of global CO2 emissions of 2 ppmv yr–1, or 0.00138 ppmv. Assuming 400 μatm concentration at year end on business as usual, forcing abated by the subsidy for converting all UK cars to electricity would be 5.35 ln[400/(400-0.00138)], or 0.00002 W m–2, which, multiplied by the Planck parameter λ0 = 0.31 K W–1 m2, gives 0.000006 K warming abated by the subsidy.
The cost to the UK taxpayer of subsidizing the 30,000 electric cars, vans, and taxis bought in 2012 was a flat-rate subsidy of $8333 (£5000) for each vehicle and a further subsidy of about $350 (£210) per year in vehicle excise tax remitted, a total of $260.5 million. On that basis, the cost of subsidizing all 2,250,000 new autos sold each year (SMMT, 2013), would be $19.54 bn.
Though the longevity of electric autos is 50% greater than that of internal-combustion autos, the advantage is more than canceled by the very large cost of total battery replacement every few years. No allowance for this extra cost is made. Likewise, the considerable cost of using renewable energy to bring down the UK’s fossil-fueled generation fraction from the global mean 67% to 61% is not taken into account, though, strictly speaking, an appropriate share of the cost of “renewable” electricity generation should be assigned to electric vehicles.
Dividing the $19 bn annual cost by the warming abated gives a unit abatement cost of $3400 tn K–1. Abating the 0.013 K projected warming over the study period by global methods of equivalent unit cost would thus cost $45 tn, or approaching $6500 a year per head of global population, or almost two-thirds of $71 tn global annual GDP.
Stern (2006) wrote that the cost of allowing the then-projected 3 K warming to occur over the 21st century would be 0-3% of global GDP. IPCC (2013, WGII) puts the cost at 0.2-2% of GDP. Assuming that 1 K 20th-century global warming would cost as much as 0.5% of GDP (in fact so small a warming would cost nothing), global mitigation by methods of equivalent unit cost to the UK’s subsidy program for electric vehicles would be 128 times costlier than adaptation.
In general, the cost of mitigation is 1-2 orders of magnitude greater than that of adaptation (Monckton of Brenchley, 2013). Affordable measures are ineffective: effective measures are unaffordable. Too little mitigation is achieved at far too great a cost. Since the premium is 10-100 times the cost of the risk insured, the precaution of insurance against any net-adverse manmade global warming is not recommended.
Footnote: When I visited the Department of Climate Change in 2010 to meet the House of Lord Minister, Lord Marland, I asked him and his chief number-cruncher, Professor David Mackay, to let me see their calculations demonstrating how much global warming the Department’s insane policies would prevent in the coming decades, and at what cost per Kelvin abated.
There was a strangled, aghast silence. The Permanent Secretary looked at his watch and then fiddled with his tie. The Minister tossed a cricket ball up and down in aimless embarrassment. Professor Mackay said, “Er, ah, mphm …” [I’d never heard that 19th-century Scottish playing-for-time interjection before] “… mphm, er, that is, well, we, ah, ugh, mphm – um, oof, we’ve never done any such calculation.”
I turned to the Minister and said, “Can I take it, Minister, that your policies are based on blind faith alone?” Seems they still are.
There is a good commentary in the National Post, related to this subject. Worth reading
Making the world a better place — by using more fossil fuels
(Reprinted from THE MORAL CASE FOR FOSSIL FUELS)
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/12/22/alex-epstein-making-the-world-a-better-place-by-using-more-fossil-fuels/
All UK political parties are in agreement. We must destroy what is left of our industry, and allow many, many more people to die of cold, just so that the politicians feel good about “climate change”. Science – who cares? This hasn’t been a scientifically lead country since the 1800s.
I have always thought that it should be a felony offense to use the highest quality form of on demand energy; electricity, to recreate the lowest form of energy life; namely “heat”, which is the waste product effluent, after all useful energy applications have been satisfied.
Thermodynamics teaches us, that we can only recover a fraction of the energy in heat (noun) and bring it back to life as a some useful form such as the electricity that powers our information based economies.
Apart from biological regeneration, direct PV conversion to electricity, is the only non-wasteful usage of high quality incoming solar EM radiant energy. The rest is first converted to heat to then endure the wrath of the Carnot inefficiency.
Well when the roof caves in MofB, you are welcome over here.
We colonials of the South Pacific, would also be pleased to have you, to maintain sanity on the crusty side of the pizza as well.
G
and just where did your magical electricity come from ? unicorns perhaps … the only felony here is on logic and by you …
Magical? KaiserDerden, you’ve mistermed ‘George E. Smith’s’ words purposely to malign his very accurate insight. Then you follow that with a baseless rant that sounds like you’ve practiced it in the mirror.
Lord Monckton and George E. Smith have nailed the lunacy of the ‘Department of Climate Madness’ in Great Britain. Great Britain’s DCM are the ones treating electricity as available via fantasy and ‘magic’; at horrifically high costs to the citizens of Great Britain with near zero overall benefits.
Come back again, KaiserDerden, when you have science to discuss.
Not all. UKIP has a sane (-ish) energy policy.
+1
It’s a democracy. Blame the electorate, my friend.
Monckton’s reference to children is apt.
Democracy will save us. Vote ukip.
So when Scotland was voting for independence the other month, did anyone there understand that all that oil and gas they had was going to lose its one biggest market? At the very least it shows how the English really don’t care what happens to the Scots! And the Scots still voted to trust the English politicians.
What does it take for people to stop acting on blind faith, and stop voting for crooks, and stop being loyal to uneconomical socialist/communistic systems?
We have a corrupt scientic community that is in cahoots with corrupt governments. The scientific community fabricates the science for the politicians to justify and criminally siphon taxes from the masses. The legal and justice system is used to enforce laws to protect these criminals and to turn honest hard work citizens into unjustful criminals when they rebel against these unjust laws.
Is all this really about just poor science, and miss understood leaders of our community that come up with misplaced decisions? Or have we come to a point in time, when like all socio-econo-political systems have been given enough time to age, the negative forces of entropy, that is, dishonesty, unethical behaviour, greed and jealousy have been allowed to fester and grow to such an extent and float to the top of all our major institutions that they are all now working in tandem and pushing our society, our world, to collapse!
The problem is not just that our science or scientific community has run amok. We have serious problems at the upper echelons of all our major educational, government and justice institutions. The arrogant elite are now conspiring together on such a large scale, that the humble citizen class doesn’t have enough of an economic base to support the ravenous arrogant elite class’ greed. This is how societies collapse, when the top is to big and heavy for the bottom to carry.
There are only two ways forward. Let it all run its coarse till collapse and we will have decades of depression thereafter and then eventual rise, which means the present living generations will have to suffer, or massive change, through the ballot box or rebellion.
Today nobody has the stomach for rebellion, at least not until they are starving or freezing, or both. So that leaves the ballot box. Some call for UKIP, but will they really do anything different. If they win government, they will still have to contend with the corrupt legal system that will support the old guard.
Lord Monckton, the Climate Change Act of 2008, is a mute issue. The problem is the entire system we have. There is no accountability for decisions and actions; scientists write wishful ideas with no scientific base and no standards to live up to, legislative and justice systems write laws in passive legalese where no accountability is made clear, politicians use these inadequate science and legal arguments to push the might of law enforcement and military on the powerless.
If you want a better and more just world Lord Monckton, you need to direct your attention to your Class. Because voting will not change anything, not while the system itself is corrupt. All that will happen, even if you vote say for all those good intending UKIPers, you will put “honest good” people into a corrupt system,and in a corrupt system, it doesn’t matter what you do or whom you put into the system, the system will corrupt you.
The problem is not just the science, or the politics, or the judges, yes they are corrupt, but nothing can be done until you fix the system. The science, politics, educators and judges are just the symptom.
Its the system that needs fixing….we need more accountability in the system.
“Lord Monckton, the Climate Change Act of 2008, is a mute issue.”
Mute or moot?
“It’s a democracy. Blame the electorate, my friend.”
In the last election, the British people voted ‘none of the above’, but they got a government anyway. All three of the major parties are Watermelons.
In reality there is no significant political choice being put to the electorate.
The trouble is that apart from revolution, there is no way to make substantial changes to democracy. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas, and the politicians in power will not vote for real change that will hand back power to the people. The ideal of government by the people for the people is an ideal, regrettably it is far divorced from reality.
What is needed is real accountability. Those in power should be held accountable for their decvisions, and should face jail/or financial penalties if they screw up. All blind trusts, spousal and familiar property should be deemed the property of the politician and should be possible to levy redress against all such property.
It should be made a criminal offence fior a politican to lie (strict liability with perhaps 3 days in the worst jail in the country). A short sharp shock.
What I cannot understand is why anyone on the public pay roll is paid more than the Prime Minister; he is top dog, and he should be paid the most. No one employed in local government, employed by the BBC, teachers, judges, welfare, nhs, whitehall civil servants etc should be paid more than cabinet ministers. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the pay structure of public servants. It is not as if they do a good job.
The whole civil service is over manned. A couple of years ago, Andrew Neil did an interview on defence cuts. The MOD were cutting approximatey 23,000 soldiers. Andrew Neil pointed oyt that the Israeli MOD had less than 450 staff dealing with military procurement, by contrast the MOD had approximately 24,000. Both were spending about the same amount of money on military procurement, so how come could the Israeli’s spend the budget with just450 staff and the UK with 24,000. If the MOD had to cut 23,000 from the payroll, rather than cutting back on the front line, the obvious choice was to cut back 23,000 whitehall civil servants/MOD troughers in the procurement department.
The civil service has become bloated, at the height of the British Empire, England was ably to effectively run an empire in all corners of the globe with a civil service less than 10% the size of the present day civil service. Government has got far too big, and wasteful and needs to be drastically pruned back, but how?
Just look at the House of Lords and how it has grown these past 20 years. If we had say 200 MPs and 200 ‘Lords’ (but elected second chamber) that would be ample to carry out government work and policy. Why is there so many? We are being todl that this year they are only working 2 or 3 days a week, and they have about 20 weeks annual holiday as well. There is little for the MPs to do since so much legislation is set in Europe and has to be largely rubber stamped.
It is easy to see that there are major problems, but very difficult to do anything about it. Especially since the sitting parties know far too well that protest votes are only made at by elections, not at the general election. The electorate needs to call their bluff and on one occassion cast a protest vote at the general election. This may result in a terrible outcome, and lead to a very strange government, but it would make the ruling political eleite realise that the public really does possess some control and if they continue to take the electorate for fools they may get kicked out of office.
I not in favour of UKIP (although I do consider that they have a few good policies) I wiould like to see them do extremely well at the forthcoming election just to put the wind up the sails of the Con/Lib/Lab coalition.
Dorian, we just need to accept that our species is not evolved to live in an affluent technological society and stop breeding. Human beings have already failed as a species, but it wasn’t our fault it was the inevitable consequence of our genetic inheritance.
It’s a safe bet that nobody pushing this nonsense will ever worry about getting cold, much less dying from it.
Peter, this interview with Jill Dugan conducted way back in 2011 gives you a pretty fair insight into exactly what the world of sane people is dealing with.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/dont_know_the_cost_dont_know_if_it_works/
And for those who are unfamiliar with who this lady is, Jill Duggan is from the European Commission’s Directorate General of Climate Action.
Thanks.
What is more one of the major political figures in that was a German. Without him the old English aristocracy would have nothing to do with trade and considered they were enlightened if they even visited the house of a major industrialist but would never stoop to staying with anyone in trade. Even when broke and married money they treated their wives who bailed them out appallingly.
So sign the gov-petition to repeal the CCA. Has a month or so to run.
“Already, 60% of Scotland’s landscape has windmills scarring it.” What density threshold is that figure based on? –AGF
GIS software has a process called “viewshed” analysis. Use of such could answer the question. Until documented, I would not quote the 60% figure.
Example:
http://mapaspects.org/webdir/colca/research/viewshed/what_is.html
Look what their answer will be.
http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=84147
“The Government is set to make a windfall profit of hundreds of millions of pounds out of a lucrative scheme to sell power from thousands of the emergency diesel generators it owns to the National Grid. The cash will come from using them to guard against the times when the wind is too low to drive the expanding fleet of wind turbines, so staving off widespread blackouts
Public buildings, including NHS hospitals, prisons, Army barracks and RAF bases, police and fire headquarters, schools and council offices equipped with emergency generators are to be asked to make them available on 20-minute standby to back-up the grid when supply is short. For this, they will be paid premium rates, soon to rise to the equivalent of £600 per Megawatt hour (MWh) of electricity produced.
This is more than 12 times the rate currently paid to ordinary power station operators, and six times the rate paid to inshore wind farm owners”
Oh the joined up thinking of LIB?LAB?CON
Roll on UKIP , save us from this madness.
All we can hope is that Ukip win so many seats that they actually have some influence to wield. Otherwise we’re buggered for another five years.
Not just five years. Remember that only THREE MPs voted against this nonsense. Since no MP will ever admit to being wrong at least 50% of the current MPs will have to die before Parliament votes for a change.
I like to think it’s not quite as bad as that, Roger. There were 227 (35%) new members elected in 2010, and a fair number extra will be removed from 2015, for various reasons.
Of course most of the remaining ones just voted how they were told, and never gave the issue any thought. It’s time they did, and I think most of them are capable of doing so. A fear of UKIP in all three major parties might help concentrate minds that refuse to see sense when it comes knocking.
The scary thing is that when the Empire _ucks this thing up, WE will take it up because WE can make it work. Just like every other failed philosophy and ideology, WE can do it right.
yet they won’t give the go ahead for a barrage across the Severn
Because that would be an environmental disaster for the birdlife that lives there (reference: The Wildfowl and Wetland Trust).
And it wouldn’t be cheap to build up front.
And, if you care about CO2 emissions, giant concrete structures aren’t as climate friendly as you might guess.
Tidal energy is non-renewable. It takes energy from the earth-moon system, lengthens the day, pushed the moon higher, reduces the size of the tides. Humanity already uses twice as much energy as is naturally dissipated by the tides.
Most emergency generators operate off grid. That is, not synched to the grid frequency, as there is no need since only on when the grid is off. This is the so called islanded microgrid problem. It would take many billions and several years to install synchronization equipment to let such gensets supply synchronously to the grid ‘off island’.
This is so difficult a mechanical/electrical problem that Shimizu Corporation of Japan proposes a solution using industrial NiMH batteries plus supercap statcomms (power electronics) to do the off island frequency synching electronically using energy storage instead. Of course, that equipment is larger than and costs as much as the genset, and isn’t feasible for more than about 250kw (0.25 MW).
The DECC proposal is a feel good piece of technical nonsense. Bring a much out of phase stand alone islanded diesel genset, even a large one, onto the grid and you have an event of considerable violence removing that genset permanently from production while laying waste to the vicinity. Thrusting a large electromagnetic stick into the metaphorical spokes of a very heavy, rapidly spinning bicycle wheel equivalent does that quite reliably.
MCourtney
apparently constructing further out in the Channel avoids disruption to wild fowl and flooding of the levels.
zemlik
A Severn barrage would provide intermittent power. It would increase the problems under discussion.
Obtaining energy from the large tides in the Severn estuary while avoiding immense environmental damage requires use of tidal lagoons.
I addressed this subject years ago; please read this.
Richard
Richard, I read your paper about the various alternative methods of power production; quite enlightening. But back to Lord Monckton’s discourse. The problem, as I see it, is that the politicians who make all these decisions about energy and other things, are, in fact, scientifically illiterate and have little idea of what they are talking about. In the main they are lawyers, people who studied humanities and economics, etc., and waffle on about carbon pollution, saving the planet and so on. Science is based on fact, measurement and data, not on some computer generated hogwash, and the facts are there hasn’t been much warming of late if anyone has noticed.
IF they manage to pull it off it will be the beginning of the end for the UK. IF they manage to pull it off the UK will look like Greece during the height of their financial madness, except way more excess winter deaths. Good luck UK.
I lived in London for many years and had wonderful gas central heating. Before that I used small fan heaters and as a result my energy bills hurt like mad and there were cold spots all over the place! I could have gone for an electric storage heater but decided against it.
Jimbo, actually electric heating is far way advanced than gas heating. Gas heating is confined to metal slabs on your wall filled with water, that is heated, then pumped around pipework. It’s archaic. The future is electric underfloor heating. It means simplicity, reliability, and individual room time & temperature control. There is an alternative (which is also electric). That is air handling systems. The air is extracted from each room, heated, filtered, dried, and even ionised, then fanned back in. It’s more expensive than electric UFH, and it’s more complicated. Gas heating has become amazingly unreliable, and maintenance is expensive. The ONLY advantage it has is cost. But actually, if you take into account the cost of running a gas system, the two become almost level – this is because electric heating costs nothing in maintenance, and is very reliable. I could go on about it for hours, as it’s my job!
TGOBJC, that may be OK for new builds, but not so good for older established houses, which already happen to have those slabs on the wall.
How much will it cost to retrofit every home in the UK with UFH?
A C Osborn. No, not so, I live in one of those older houses, and I’ve already done it. The beauty of it is that as it is individual room heating (not a system), it’s simply done as each room is refurbished over time.
Retired Engineer, you currently pay in the region of £250 boiler depreciation every year (as modern boilers have to be replaced every 10 years at an average cost of £2,500). Over 10 years you may also pay almost £2,000 in insurance and/or maintenance. That’s £4,500 every 10 years in total. This would buy a typical home a full Electric UFH ‘system’. So in effect, it wouldn’t cost any ‘extra’ at all. So the cost to retrofit every home with electric UFH is what typical gas heating systems ALREADY cost in terms of running expenditure. This is all well known in our trade, but no one talks about it to clients as all profit is in fitting and maintaining gas-based systems. In short, the British public is kept in the dark about it. It’s a similar story with solar panel systems. I have yet to come across anyone actually making a profit on one – I must stress – when ALL account has been taken of expenditure and future expenditure. Again, it is talked about in our trade press at great length, but again, there is a strong vested interest!
@ur momisugly TGOBJC, Rubbish!
Gas is used at ~80% gross efficiency in old boilers, and, >90% gross efficiency in new boilers. Transmission losses are negligible.
Electric power generation & distribution ~ 50% efficient.
Gas can be stored, electricity (on grid scale) cannot.
Consequently, (in the UK) electricity is 3x Natural Gas price.
“Gas heating has become amazingly unreliable …” Absolute & utter nonsense. What references have you for that slur on the industry?
Power outages are not uncommon. I suspect 95% of UK population have had (maybe just a brief) interruption in the past 3 years. I doubt if 5% gas users have ever had a gas interruption that affected them & their immediate neighbours.
Remember, in April this year: “A fault at a substation was the cause of a power outage which affected more than 200,000 properties across the north of Scotland last week.” There has never, ever been a gas-outage in the UK on even 5% of that scale.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-27116417
High winds & ice accumulation frequently bring down overhead power lines.
Of course, when your gas furnace malfunctions, you can easily fix or replace it since it is sitting in a closet or the basement. When your electric heat fails (and it does for various reasons), you get to rip of the floor or the plaster ceiling!
Then there is that little detail of EMI just inches from you, for those who are concerned about such things.
Joe Public, try and not to be so rude and puerile, you may learn something. If you read my posts again, you may see that I am deeply within the heating industry, it’s what I do. Your post shows a complete lack of understanding as well. When you have a power outage, you have no gas central heating either. So gas heating users don’t need a gas outage, just an electric one. That seems to have passed you. If you want to discuss it sensibly, then first understand that, unlike you, I am in the industry and very well informed. If you want a question answered then be polite.
The effect of electric fields around your feet due to UFH has been mush researched, and is less harmful than using a mobile phone – which itself has been shown to be harmless. The reliability of electric UFH is also known to be rather exceptional. Modern mats come with a 15 year guarantee minimum. It is also quite easy to replace as it overlaid with carpet or laminated flooring (and almost every laminated flooring is clicked together now).
To say that underfloor electric heating needs no mailtainance is stretching things a bit, but I agree in principle.
However, installing electric heating mats under groundfloor floor coverings in most old housing stock requires attention to insulation of th floor slab.
I agree that gas boilers are diabolically unreliable these days, mostly as a result of all the measures designed in to squeeze the last few % of efficiency out of them. No-one considers the cost of maintainance and replacement in the ‘efficiency’ equation.
Bring back well built SIMPLE boilers……….. I could also go on for hours about it, as it’s my job too!!
@ur momisugly TGOBJC at 12:39pm
Gas-fired boiler & warm-air systems depend electricity for control. But during a power cut, my gas fire & gas cooker still work.
If you’re “deeply within the heating industry” then you should have no difficulty providing references for your claim “Gas heating has become amazingly unreliable …”
Electric UFH has, by definition, to be “On Peak”, so it’s 3x the day-time cost of gas (which incidentally, is the same as night time cost of gas). You’re paying ~15p/kW at present. When smart-meters become mandatory they’ll likely impose (even-higher) maximum-demand charges.
If you actually are in the heating industry, then you’ll know that gas-fired air handling systems have been available for decades. But having a gas burner rather than electric resistance heating, means the former cost only 1/3 to run.
Jon, the old Potterton Diplomat and Vulcan Viceroy back boilers went for years before sooting up. They were inefficient, but remarkably reliable. Electric valves added a level of unreliability in the early 1970s, but they were still amazingly reliable. I removed a Vulcan Viceroy from a house about six years ago. It had been there since 1965 and all that went were two pumps and two thermocouples.
As for electric UFH, I’ll say again though, it really is zero maintenance. If the controls are sensibly sourced, they too will be almost unreplaceable in 15 years, or even longer. As for insulation, that is no problem at all. All you have to do is lay Depron (doubled). It’s the equivalent of 300mm of concrete or 100mm of wood – and it’s cheap!
I will probably be leaving the industry this coming year, and it saddens me to see the unreliability that has been built in due to controls and needless complexity. When I joined, we still had wind-up timers! Oh, and the odd explosion or two!
This may well work in temperant climates. On the west coast of the USA, gas is king. As an electrical contractor I use gas. The air handlers blow heat and cold throughout in duct work, last 20 years plus, and are low maintence. Electric floor heat is confined to kitchens and baths as auxiliary use for upscale houses. In the northern areas when a power outage occurs in winter, a small generator and a few gallons of gas will keep you warm, all you need to do is plug in the furnace. Your electric heat neighbor freezes and gets a nasty surprise when the power comes back on and the frozen water pipes which have burst, thaw and flood the house. Slab pipes and cables under tile and real wood floors are terrible to repair, not to mention the larger electrical service required for heat and the cabling that needs to be run throughout the house. It’s a big, big world.
Gas heating has become amazingly unreliable, and maintenance is expensive. The ONLY advantage it has is cost.
=============
The only thing less reliable than gas is everything else.
Our neighborhood lost power for 2 weeks in Vancouver in the dead of winter following a storm. A few hundred thousands of homes were affected and repairs took time. The only reliable heat we had was two gas fireplaces and a gas water heater. The furnace didn’t work because it needed electricity for the fan.
The house was warm and toasty and we had hot showers, living by candle light for two weeks. A lot of other people didn’t have hot showers, heat or hot food for two weeks and those that could moved into hotels. Luckily we also had a motorhome parked on our property, and were able to make our meals on the gas range. However, the fresh water had already been drained from the motorhome to prevent freeze damage, so preparation had to first be done in the house.
Anybody have any experience with UPS protected gas ch? IMO it is all a gravity fed system needs and a pump fed system could be done with a dc pump or an invertor.
Joe Public, you’re at it again. Try writing sensibly. First of all, old boilers were never 80% efficient. We once measured a boiler at 43% efficiency – much of the heat went up the fluepipe. The client couldn’t understand why her gas bill was so high, but her home so cool. Secondly, very few modern boilers are 90% efficient. All you are doing is showing that you have no idea of what you are talking about, sorry. These figures are given by boiler manufacturers in labs, they are never reproducible on site (much like mpg figures). The principle reason is that boilers don’t condensate unless the return temperatures (water coming back to be reheated) is 57c or less. Hence, in the real world, this only happens some of the time – as radiator valves open/close and valves switch.
To answer your other points: the use of warm air systems was virtually 100% gas in the past, but I wasn’t talking about the past! The modern warm air system (in some very nice posh homes in a particular area of London) use a unit located in the loft. Gas isn’t used, Joe Public! I had a chat with the chairman of one of the old companies that used to be the main player (J&S), and they talk about reconfiguring their systems, but residual heat within the heat exchanger is something that must be expelled. This can mean a room over-heating by some margin. An electric version of this uses a matrix (element), and cools rapidly, so it is ideal.
Costs: Electric isn’t 15p/kWh. Again, all you are doing is Googling! ExtraEnergy (a relatively new energy supplier) has been – and still is – supplying on-peak electric for 9p/kWh. When calculating costs, you have to take into account ALL expenditure, not just the fuel costs.
If you don’t want to believe that I am in the heating industry (though about to leave it this year, probably) then that’s fine. You can add it to all your other incorrect beliefs. Good evening.
Fred, add a small transfer switch for less than 500 dollars attach it to your lighting, furnace, microwave and frig and you are all set. A 3KW generator will run it all and charge your phones. You may even get TV as the cable company is separately powered.
TGOBJC:
I’m willing to be educated, but I have a rather skeptical view of UFH systems:
1) what if any limitations do they place on flooring material? I would assume carpeting would act as an insulator, which would have to be taken into consideration in sizing an installation. And what about the effect on the typical finishing materials used on wood floors? In the US, UFH systems are often promoted for bathrooms with tile floors to avoid that shock to bare feet in the morning experience. I’ve always thought it simpler to either wear stockings or keep a bathmat hung over the shower doors to lay down when you need to.
2) I assume these have to be electrical resistive strips of some kind? Anyone who has owned an electric kitchen range or oven for long enough has had to replace an element. They eventually develop a “hot spot” and burn out, sometimes with some exciting pyrotechnic effects. While I’m perfectly happy to accept a 10 year lifetime on easily replaced stove and oven elements, I would not be willing to dig up my floor every 10 years or so to repair the heating system. What’s the long-term service reliability for these systems?
Most new residential construction in the US includes air-conditioning, which uses forced-air circulation. Given that, it makes almost no sense to install UFH for heating, except in certain special locations like bathroom floors. For energy efficiency reasons heatpumps are preferred over resistive strip electrical heating for all-electric houses. I have seen builders pushing UFH systems for those climates that never or seldom need air-conditioning, but all those I’ve seen use a circulating liquid system instead of resistive strips.
Thanks.
Fred, if you want to take things to their natural endline, then the only thing reliable is rubbing two sticks together within some straw!
Alan, carpet is ok, though timber is better. If using a carpet as floor cover then ensure that it is less than 2.5 tog. Most carpets are only 1.0 tog. As I said, modern electric UFH mats come with a 15 year warranty. I think that alone says that they aren’t how they used to be! We had some terrible electric UFH here in Britain in the 1960s. Air conditioning looked like it was going to take off here a few years ago, but in typical homes, it hasn’t.
@ur momisugly TGOBJC at 2:11pm
1. You claimed “Gas heating has become amazingly unreliable …”. This is the 3rd request for a reference; other readers will make their own interpretation of your inability to substantiate your own wild claims.
2. ” We once measured a boiler at 43% efficiency – much of the heat went up the fluepipe.” So, out of the millions of boilers in the UK, you measured 1 and it was only 43% efficient. Big deal. Being in the heating industry, you’d obviosly realise there could be a multitude of reasons for that.
Ghost, you miss by a mile on your gas heating nonsense.
This sounds like an interested party’s story. I’ve lived in gas-heated, forced air homes all my life except for 2 years. They are extremely reliable, efficient, and inexpensive. There’s no need to dry the air after it’s heated!! Nor is ionization necessary. For those 2 years, I lived in a condo with electric heat. The real estate salesman sounded like the ghost of the ghost of Big Jim. We believed him until we saw the heating bills. They were enormous! Any savings in initial expense were eaten up in those first two years.
All the answers about electric heating seem to anticipate resistance heating. Efficient electric heating involves moving heat, not ‘creating it’. Heat pumps are replacing water heaters and furnaces all over the world.
Forced air gas heating is cheap and lends itself just as well to cooling. Heat accumulators can be connected but the heat should be transferred from outside the envelope by pump.
Heat pumps are now available which will work when it is -25 C outside. Resistance heating coils are passé.
Crispin – VERY good point about Heat Pumps, Here in Indiana we’ve seen an explosion of new HP enhanced furnaces and climate control systems for the residential market over the last 15 years. And most of those are gas systems.
Gas makes up about 90% of local residential heating systems and nearly 100% of commercial and industrial. Of those, only about 5% are boiler. The rest are forced air or HP.
TGOBJC – While I believe you that your experienced in the heating and cooling industry, I have to wonder if your location is skewing your perception. Around here it’s nothing like how you’ve described it. Gas is king, Electric is both expensive and inefficient, and Under Floor Heat is a novelty for wealthier homeowners who don’t like to walk on cold floors. The few homes that were built with ONLY UFH have had to have additional heating retrofitted in, usually at great expense.
As for power outages, lately we’ve been getting a couple a year that last at least a day, and many averaging 3 days. Because of this home owners have begun to install Nat Gas powered backup generators (Nat Gas because it doesn’t need refueling like diesel), and as many as 1/4 of all new houses built have them from the beginning. Were even starting to see systems that combine climate control and emergency power in one basic unit.
Personally my own house has an older furnace I’ve babied along for a decade and a half, and was old when i got the place. It’s not the most efficient unit around, but it has a Pilot Light/Thermocouple system, and a power failure won’t do more then stop it’s blowers. Thank god heat rises, it’s got us through a few cold, dark, powerless winter nights.
The craziest system I’ve seen though had an emergency power generator hooked to the water supply. Provided mechanical power and a small amount of electricity in a total power/generator failure. Was just enough to keep the Furnace OR Sump Pump going. Would be a hell of a water bill if it ran for a day or three, but better then the alternative.
The Ghost Of Big Jim Cooley,
I can only speak about my own experience and I was very happy with my gas central heating system in my small London flat. I don’t recognize the “Over 10 years you may also pay almost £2,000 in insurance and/or maintenance”. My system was fitted quickly and that was it – apart from regular check-ups for safety.
Why do you not include gas forced-air systems? I’ve lived long enough to have evolved from wood stoves to coal-fired behemoth, octopus furnaces to oil-fired furnaces to gas, with stints in apartments with boiler-based steam and hot water systems and all-electric service. The home I’ve been in for the last 40+ years has a forced-air gas-fired system that is the most reliable system I’ve experienced. I’ve NEVER been without gas service, but some of the electrical outages I’ve experienced through the years have been horrid and long. A small generator allows my gas heating system to continue through electrical outages, but could not possibly operate a resistance-heating system. Having been retired for many years on a limited pension, I wouldn’t trade the efficiency, reliability and cost of gas for electric. I simply couldn’t afford it.
The “next big thing” in heating is probably IR radiative heating. The US military is looking into it because it can make you feel warmer than the objects around you actually are.
The Ghost Of Big Jim Cooley,
Thanks for the information. I last lived in the UK 14 years ago. The building itself was OLD, the system I purchased was NEW and I had no high maintenance issues. The system was fitted in very quickly. So for me I’m not sure what the latest systems would have cost as the building was not new.
I bet there is one thing that Underfloor heating can’t do, which my wife Must Have and that is Radiators to dry Washing in the Winter at the same time as warming the house, just don’t mention Electirc Tumble Dryers.
Looks like our decision to emigrate from the UK was sensible. In tropical Australia, one thing we don’t face is large heating bills.
But what about your cooling bills? 😉
That’s what the beach is for. 😉
+1 🙂
Depending on where you live, it is often cheaper to cool than to heat. Consider heat addition or removal. Where I am, it is not unusual to have to raise the temperature in my home by 50 or 60 degrees (F) or more in the winter, but usual to have to reduce temperatures by 10 to 20 degrees with summer air conditioning.
As a southerner in Aust., I migrated to Cairns to get away from bronchitis every Winter. Fans are good and don’t use much electricity, but with a 3KW solar panel system my production exceeds the grid input by a factor of two. At the moment it is producing about 450 Kwh a month.
Multiplication of efficiency factors aside, the real questions for electric vehicles are what is the source of the electric energy (coal, gas, nuclear, renewable?) and if fossil fuel, what is the efficiency of air pollution capture for that source? This article also completely ignores recent and projected advances in technology, such as battery technology (http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/11/advancements-battery-technology-shaping-future-electronic-vehicles), thereby heavily skewing the costs of mitigation.
the article you mention goes on to say:
“Although lots of research has been done to develop rechargeable, high energy metal-air battery cells during the past decade, there is still a long road ahead to achieve a practical high-energy battery system that can meet the demand for our current EVs,” said Sun.
Did you notice this little Gem, “They are also going to install 1.2 GW of new nuclear capacity each year”.
What is the build time for Hinckley Poiint C? About 10 years at current thinking and they are going to need to build half of one of those every year for 20 to 30 years.
Complete fantasy. Richard Booker also has a good article on this in the Telegraph.
http://www.thegwpf.com/christopher-booker-the-insanity-of-zero-carbon-britain/
I bet Chris has bemoaned the lack of punctuation in the sub-title to this piece! 😉
You say the govt is going to ban the use of gas in industry and homes in the next 20 years.
Can you quote the govt policy or directive that states this?
David Mackey said several years ago that burning gas should be made a thermogenic crime so his years as chief govt adviser may well have rubbed of on DECC but it would be nice to see the actual govt statement to this effect.
Around three years ago I asked a dozen leading climate scientists what effect the limiting of co2 to a theoretical 350ppm would have on global temperature. Most admitted they had never done the calculation the several that replied confirmed it was in the hundredths of a degree .
Tonyb
+1 for an exact reference please.
In a brief Google search, I was unable to find any announcement of a natural gas ban by Edward Davey. Perhaps Lord Monckton could point us to the document(s) that prompted this article?
Gary
Here are the minutes from the nov meeting of the house of commons energy committee. I can not see any direct reference to phasing out gas.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141106/debtext/141106-0001.htm
Mind you the policies of the govt to reduce co2 emissions to the lebels stated must logically lead in that direction but as yet I can not see the gov admitting it. Presumably too close to the general election to want to admit it
Tonyb
2050 Pathways Analysis
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68816/216-2050-pathways-analysis-report.pdf
[First published in 2010, seemingly to demonstrate how utterly mad our politicians are.]
TonyB, it’s the 2030/2050 ‘plan’. I can’t look for the documents at the moment, but it is all online. The principle plan is district heating together with heat pumps etc. Gas boilers for domestic use will be severely restricted by 2028/30 and eliminated altogether by 2050.
This is one document, but there are shorter ones that spell it out more simply.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/190149/16_04-DECC-The_Future_of_Heating_Accessible-10.pdf
Big jim
Lord monckton says phasing out will be completed by 2034 . Your post says they will be eliminated by 2050 . I will read your references, for which many thanks.
Tonyb
No, it won’t be completed by 2034, there is still too much opposition to that timeframe. The plan remains 2050 – I don’t care what Mr Monckton says. As I said, there are better PDFs available online which detail the arguments surrounding the issue, and the likely date.
It’s what happens when no-one has done their homework, but trusts everyone else has. They all sing the same song, in tune together, comforted by the absence of dissonance, their absence of diligence excused, and handsomely rewarded. What else could it be but “the right thing to do”?
It takes Lord M to point it out, and they are dumbfounded. Not only has The Emperor no clothes, none of his courtiers have either. We have a nude Parliament, save three brave truth-tellers.
,
I think it’s from the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s “2050 Pathways Analysis”
http://www.thegwpf.com/christopher-booker-the-insanity-of-zero-carbon-britain/
Big jim posted this reference
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/190149/16_04-DECC-The_Future_of_Heating_Accessible-10.pdf
It is section three that is relevant to gas burning in homes.
Firstly this document is a vision not a legal framework. Secondly the date for completion is 2050 not 2034.
It is clearly aspirational and bound around with all sorts of caveats. Clearly they are already behind schedule and need a variety of things to make it happen, including public support, which is notably lacking.
It all seems extremely unlikely to me as regards Gas supplies to existing homes which can’t be connected to the heat networks planned, bt new homes might conceivably be plugged into the district schemes planned in the next decade or two.
At one time we burned charcoal and peat. If better ways of producing cheap reliable heat can be found its not unreasonable to embrace it. we shall see. It won’t happen by 2034 though.
Tonyb
Piped gas can be made from peat and waste biomass, if they really want to go renewable.
Our resident chief climate fraudster in Australia, Tim Flannery says any mitagation of temperature won’t be noticable for possibly 1000 years!
Flannery: “I just need to clarfy in terms of the climate context for you. If we cut emissions today, global temperatures are not likely to drop for about a thousand years.”
http://australianclimatemadness.com/2011/03/26/thousand-years-for-co2-cuts-to-take-effect/
Mad as a fish:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Oxford_people_with_PPE_degrees
The politics? Yes.
The philosophy? Yes.
The economics … er … not so much.
Interesting that ” … The vast majority of students at Oxford drop one of the three subjects for the second and third years of their course.”
Makes you wonder if it is the E in PPE that gets itself dropped.
The ‘E’ – according to my Irish mates – stands for ‘Eejits!’
mind you, when university science and engineering in Blighty researching bubble-bath for ships to make the sea more reflective (and assuming ship owners will happily take an around about course to spread their frothy wake for the good of the cause), you’ve got to assume that the country has collectively gotten a few ‘roos loose in the top paddock.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30543252
Thank you, Lord Monckton for an excellent analysis. If the additional mining necessitated to make all the batteries for the electric cars, our increased dependency on the electric grid, and other factors are included, the situation is even worse.
We need more atmospheric CO2, not less. We are going to a new stable configuration – the ice age and more CO2 will delay its onset.
What then is this “Carbon Pollution”?
A sinister, evil collusion?
CO2, it is clean,
Makes for growth, makes it green,
A transfer of wealth, a solution.
http://lenbilen.com/2014/02/22/co2-the-life-giving-gas-not-carbon-pollution-a-limerick-and-explanation/
also: http://lenbilen.com/2014/07/01/eleven-signs-of-cooling-a-new-little-ice-age-coming/
As an addition. Lord Monckton gave an excellent explanation for the economics of the madhouse;
Here is the religion of the madhouse: http://lenbilen.com/2014/12/22/on-the-sin-of-the-world-and-the-lie-what-does-that-mean/
Ed Davey in charge of energy policy? I was thinking what is that analogous to? A bus driver at the controls of a jet fighter? A podiatrist attempting heart surgery? Another career driven PPE grad trying to understand science?
Ah well not long to the election.
Aye, not long … but with only Ukip talking any sense on this subject it’s still far from a foregone conclusion that much will change. “No matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.”
Do you think the UKIP will turn into Cheek #3, Steve? A strange concept, but not impossible.
Haha, know what you mean, Jorge. Why not? It’s a science-fiction world they’re building …
I filled my car with gasoline @ur momisugly $2.16 per gallon
They’ve jumped the shark. Finally they’ve really gone too far.
New business opportunity, mobile rapid EV charging service for stranded motorists after their batteries die. Oh wait, who will be able to afford it?
While it is somewhat encouraging that in this insanity the US seems to be “leading from behind,” the likely result is appalling.
As insane as is the current US effort to maximize the probable cost in treasure, life and liberty by willfully doing the opposite of what we should be doing, the “real conspiracy” that is becoming more “real” by the day, is that there is a motive behind the madness.
The underlying dogma of the inner circle of the greenies is that there are too many people. The paranoid view might be that the expensive campaign in the wrong direction is intentional.
Oh dear Lord Monckton you have been woefully ill informed about nuclear reactors.
The exact capacity of the reactors fitted to nuclear submarines is of course an official secret but its is clear from public sources that their output is at best 10% of that quoted for the Hitachi reactors. Moreover the cost per megawatt hour of the military reactors is FAR higher than that for a civilian design. This is unsurprising given that they have a quite different set of requirements. Land based reactors don’t have to operate at various angles of bank in a turn nor at steep bow angles. Note that British designed military reactors have an operating life of less than 1/3 that of civilian reactors as they are not designed to be refuelled. Essentially the boats are scrapped when the core would need replacing. Again this is not surprising as you essentially need to dismantle a good portion of the vessel to gain access to the reactor core.
These are of course the reasons RR are not planning to enter the civil market.
The Hitachi reactors – which as far as I know have NOT yet been ordered, are actually built by the GE – Hitachi group and they are one of the most experienced reactor designers in the world. Note that the UK PWR2 reactors are based on a 40 year old Westinghouse design.
The only station ordered thus far is Hinckley Point C which of course uses 2 French designed 1.6 gigawatt units. EdF who are the owners and builders are the largest nuclear power utility outside China and have an excellent record. Compare and contrast French and British electricity prices. The French pay less for residential electricity than anyone in Europe outside the Nordic countries which have massive hydro electric power installations.
I am very sad and disappointed to see an otherwise excellent post spoiled by such inaccuracies.
I’d like to add he has also confused the capacities of naval and civilian power reactors by claiming:
Nuclear submarines do not have 600 MW reactors, at least if one is talking about electrical power generated. Even if he confused MWt (thermal) with MWe (electrical), I still can’t make the numbers match as you generally assume about thirty percent efficiency in converting heat to power, so 600 MWt should produce about 180 MWe — still way above what a US or British nuclear sub would use.
The Astute Class boats convert their steam to electricity using Alstom steam turbines that run on wet steam. As such they are MUCH less efficient than the superheated steam installations common with oil fired units. I’d be surprised if they hit 20%, The reactor is also designed with sufficient surplus capacity to be able to drive the system at the end of the core life which at best would suggest a conventional rating of approx. 150 MW thermal.
The EPR design selected for Hinkley Point C is rated at thermal power 4500 MWt and 1600 MW electrical.
This is a VERY advanced third generation design and was designed by a conglomerate of Electricite de France, AREVA (previously Framatome) and Siemens AG.
I sincerely wish Britain still had a viable nuclear industry but thanks to 40 years of government negligence we do not. I am one of the last generation of engineers who worked on British nuclear designs and at 62 I am approaching retirement,
carriers are 550 on nimitz class a4w reactor iirc
Lord Monckton is not far off the mark with his power estimates for the PWR2 reactor used by the Royal Navy. As you remark the Rolls Royce reactor is based on the Westinghouse Design, however the PWR2 has (like the Westinghouse A4W reactor) had ongoing core development. So even though outwardly the reactors may seem old, the fuel cycle and chemistry/physics is quite different today.
Although Rolls Royce do not publically advertise the exact specification of their military reactors, they are as you say very similar to Westinghouse designs. The A4W reactor, as used by the US Navy for instance, is quoted as having a power output of 550 megawatts. The newer Rolls Royce PWR3 is said to exceed that by as much as 1/3rd.
Incidentally EDF DO NOT produce any reactors at all, but instead have a sole supplier, Areva (also French). EDF however do “own” the entire British Civilian Nuclear Reactor Fleet, and perversely EDF do contract Rolls Royce to manage the refuelling of EDF’s French land based civilian nuclear plant. Areva are incidentally on the verge of bankruptcy, and only their ownership by the French Government itself prevents it’s liquidation,
The PWR 2 has certainly had a number of Core redesigns, the latest Core H is optimized for long life not increased power production. The reality of its power capability may be judged by the turbines it drives. Open sources indicate these are two Alstom units delivering 15,000 SHP (approx. 12 MW)
The turbines in the last generation of AGR’s were rated at 660 MW, those intended for Hinkley Point C are rated at 1600 MW. They mass more than the entire Astute boat,
PWR 2 – lets be generous – 30 MW
EPR – 1600 MW
The facts are clear
Now as for the A4W reactor this is expressly designed for nuclear powered super carriers and allowed the generation of 140 MW of power at the turbine shaft. They are in fact an order of magnitude smaller than those provided for the EPR
Note in USN practise the following prefixes are used
A – Aircraft carrier
C – Cruiser
D – Destroyer
S – Submarine
The latest and greatest of the submarine reactors is the S9G used in the Virginia Class
Its quite true that EdF do not produce reactors at all, that function was hived off when AREVA was created in 2001. However the French government retains a controlling interest in both organizations and EdF ARE involved in the design and development if not the manufacture. Having visited their nuclear engineering group in Paris on several occasions I can personally attest to that.
As for the PWR 3 it is as you say a licensed design from Westinghouse but is NOT based on the A4W which can be no more fitted in a submarine hull than it could be in your car, It is reportedly based on the S6 series as used in the Los Angeles and Seawolf class. Its possible they might get the S9G if the US decides to release it. It is not being used to generate extra power, the simple reality is that the PWR 2 design dates back to the 1970,s to my personal knowledge and no longer meets current safety standards.
When I resigned from the British Army in 1999, I joked that the only people in the world I particularly wanted to shoot were running my own country. It’s not so much of a joke these days.
“There was a strangled, aghast silence.” Priceless. As usual, we see that there is no Math in Libtania, only feelings…
Imagine the scene:
Stranded in your electric vehicle, in snow, in isolation, at night. But, you have a full charge.
Do you use the radio, a light and the heater?
Stranded in your fossil fuel vehicle, in snow, in isolation, at night. But, you have a full tank.
Do you use the radio, a light and the heater?
Actually in both cases you should use your emergency kit so you don’t burn up the electric car leaving you without shelter, and you don’t Carbon Monoxide yourself to death running a stuck fossil fuel car that may have a plugged or leaky exhaust. That’s why those of us in the Great White North carry candles, food, boots, clothing, chemical heaters, blankets, and extra mittens and other clothing.
“and you don’t Carbon Monoxide yourself to death running a stuck fossil fuel car that may have a plugged or leaky exhaust”
I recently heard, on the radio, that would-be suicides are failing to kill themselves with car exhaust because today’s cars are so well-tuned that they don’t produce enough CO.
It’s also worth noting that modern gasoline cars are so efficient that you may have a hard time heating them when stuck in a snow bank. Our Civic certainly cools down when idling at a stop light at forty below zero with the heater on.
Well, with Lord M. here and Booker in the Telegraph, we can only hope the British public start waking up to this insanity before it’s too late. If not, then (as Tiny Tim almost said), God help us all.
Lord M. of B, from a feller madhouse dweller, thank you very much for your continuing good work. To you and to all who have the good sense to read (and write!) WUWT, best wishes for a merry Christmas and a happy New Year.
Do I understand that gas-fired generators will be replaced with electricity powered generators? That should prove to be very green indeed.
Lord Monckton, I agree that all of this is just plain looney. Just plain silly. Unworkable. Stupid. Even suicidal. But then socialism in any of its many forms is also suicidal and the west has been heading down that path for decades now.
The plain fact is that far too many humans benefit from the welfare schemes — both individual and corporate. There are incentives, tax breaks, grants, jobs, grand vacations to exotic places for meetings, accolades, book deals, and all the rest. In the end, there is no way that CO2 has anything much to do with the earth’s temperature and on net may even be a cooling factor rather than a warming factor. Regardless, reality says that more CO2 does not equal higher temperatures. But who cares about that? There is gold in them thar hills! Funds from million dollar grants to be made! They will pay you not to produce electricity if you do it green! Shazzam! Found money! The government will pay you thousands for each electric car you make that no one wants! Easy street!
When the great depression comes; they will blame CO2.
I do hope the Greens are included in the leadership debates next year.
They would bring up these policies and aims. And someone needs to talk about it.
Right now there is nervous silence and feeble-minded fumbling towards idiocy.
Someone needs to try to defend this.
Within the trade and industry of heating, we are talking about it. The thing is, it may all be swept aside anyway. There is a complete unknown about what the future of heating will be. There WILL be advances made in solar cell generation, things we can’t even imagine yet, here in 2014. And 2050 is a long way off. The plan for the elimination of domestic gas heating will happen, whether it has anything to do with CO2 or not, it’s just heating moving with the times (almost all tower blocks constructed now are using electric heating). But the ideas contained in the Plan of district heating systems and combined heat & power systems already seem to be missing the point. Most likely heating will be by electric – generated individually by some means that currently (sorry about that) we haven’t even yet envisaged.
“Most likely heating will be by electric – generated individually by some means that currently (sorry about that) we haven’t even yet envisaged.”
But we have envisaged it: Micro (gas-engine) CHP.
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/domestic/content/micro-chp
And with the industry going full-circle – Gas-absorption heat pumps!
http://www.cibsejournal.com/cpd/2010-10/
You are doing it again! Stop Googling. CHP is too expensive in capital costs, and is necessarily complex. Within our trade press, it has virtually died out in the past two years. One company have recently set up a scheme whereby you rent the boiler, but the catch is that you must buy your energy from them. That’s called ‘by the short and curlies’.
@TGOBJC at 2:17
Why do you repeatedly accuse someone of ‘Googling’, when they shoot your arguments down in flames? Why not provide answers, instead of displaying your own ignorance by making ill-considered ad-hominens?
You have absolutely no idea about other commenters’ knowledge or qualifications, so simply destroy your own credibility.
@ur momisugly TGOBJC at 1:25
Your propaganda for the electricity industry would cause a sceptic to wonder if you’re on commission?
The electricity industry (in the UK at least) is the only industry everyone else has to pay to not produce.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/548433/Wind-farm-company-paid-millions-nothing-wants-expand?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-scotland+%28Daily+Express+%3A%3A+Scotland+Feed%29