Shafting The Poor

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Let me start with a couple of the most callous and heartless quotes that I know of. Here’s a description from Politico of the first one:

President Barack Obama’s Energy secretary unwittingly created a durable GOP talking point in September 2008 when he talked to The Wall Street Journal about the benefits of having gasoline prices rise over 15 years to encourage energy efficiency.

“Somehow,” Chu said, “we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe.”

And here’s the second quote, from President Obama:

“Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket, regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad, because I’m capping greenhouse gases”

In agreement with the beliefs of President Obama and Secretary Chu, and a vain attempt to fight the imaginary menace of CO2, the countries of Europe have driven up the price of energy. This is supposed to make people use less of it, and thus reduce CO2 emissions.

As a result of the European policies, the current energy price situation looks like this:

Not a pretty picture …

So consider the effect of this on the poor. To begin with, the poor spend a much larger part of their income on energy than do the rich. 

Now, the energy prices in Europe are more than twice what they are in the US. So if the US doubled to match the fantasies of Secretary Chu and President Obama, the richest fifth of the nation would only be paying 10% of their income for energy … but the poorest fifth of the nation would be paying close to half of their income for energy. And as I pointed out about the poorest of the poor in my post “We Have Met The 1% And He Is Us“,

Those people have no slack. They have no extra room in their budgets. They have no ability to absorb increases in their cost of living, particularly their energy spending. They have no credit cards, no credit, and almost no assets. They have no health insurance. They are not prepared for emergencies. They have no money in the bank. They have no reserve, no cushion, no extra clothing, no stored food in the basement, no basement for that matter, no fat around their waist, no backups, no extras of any description. They are not ready for a hike in the price of energy or anything else.

(In passing, let me suggest that you might enjoy reading that post, which discusses this issue of energy and the poor in some detail.)

The result of all of these factors is what is called “energy poverty”. That’s where you don’t have enough energy to keep your home warm. That’s where you’re a single mom with three kids and your old car you need to get to work drinks gas faster than your ex-husband drank whiskey … so if gas prices double your kids will do without something important. That’s where you and your family sit in the cold and the dark and shiver because you can’t pay your energy bills.

And that’s where a study from the Jacque Delors Institute says (emphasis mine):

During this winter of 2020-2021, hundreds of millions of Europeans are constrained to stay at home because of lockdowns and curfews instituted to contain the propagation of COVID19. For millions of them, this means staying in poorly heated houses, which causes both discomfort and a threat to their own health. 

This policy paper gives an overview of the state of energy poverty in the European Union (EU) and the way this issue is currently addressed by Member States and by the EU. While it appears that energy poverty has generally been decreasing over the last years, in 2019 there were still over 30 million Europeans who claimed to be unable to heat their home adequately in the winter.

Thirty million Europeans, many of them pensioners, many of them kids, all of them poor, sitting in unheated houses … that’s about the population of California. Or for the folks across the pond, it’s about the population of Hungary, Austria and the Czech Republic combined. Again per the report, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus are the countries with the highest share of the population who are unable to heat their homes.

Now, there’s an old saying, “No pain, no gain.” Me, I think that’s crazy because I’ve had lots of painless gains. But if there is pain, well, there should at least be some gain to go along with it. So … shall we take a look at the purported gain in the question of CO2 emissions?

I mean, all those countries signed on to the Paris Climate Discord, they all have followed President Obama’s and Secretary Chu’s theories and drove their energy prices through the roof to reduce greenhouse gases, so now at the end of the day there must be some real gains in per capita CO2 emissions, right?

Here you go:

Thirty million Europeans are freezing in the winter, unable to heat their homes, and for what?

For nothing. Zip. Niets. Diddley-squat. Ingenting. Zero. Nada. Rien. Nichts. Not one thing.

Despite Europe creating widespread energy poverty, despite the US not being in the Paris Agreement, the US has reduced emissions more than any of the countries shown above. Europe is condemning old people and children to shiver in the dark and cold, and for absolutely no gain at all.

Look, I don’t think CO2 is the secret knob that controls the climate. I think that’s a simplistic scientific misrepresentation of a very complex system. As a result, I think that the “War On CO2” is a destructive, costly, and meaningless endeavor.

However, perhaps you do think that the climate, one of the more complex systems we’ve ever tried to analyze, is ruled by just one of the hundreds of different factors affecting the system. If so, I presume you think the European actions are justified because you believe you will be helping the poor people in the year 2050 or 2100.

So … if those are your motives I ask you, I beg you, I implore you, don’t wage your war on CO2 by screwing today’s poor to the floor! 

Because I can assure you, possibly helping tomorrow’s poor by actually hurting today’s poor is a crime against humanity, one you absolutely don’t want to have on your conscience.

My best to all, regardless of your views regarding the climate control knob,


PS—Misunderstandings are the bane of the intarwebs. Accordingly, I ask that when you comment you quote the exact words you’re discussing, so that we can all know who and what you’re talking about.

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February 5, 2021 1:39 pm

“ Because I can assure you, possibly helping tomorrow’s poor by actually hurting today’s poor is a crime against humanity, one you absolutely don’t want to have on your conscience.”

100% agreement.

Reply to  Derg
February 5, 2021 4:04 pm

I agree, as well. But that assumes these people have a conscience.

Reply to  PaulH
February 5, 2021 11:55 pm

You remind me of a TV ad a few years ago. Dreary sepia tone camera pans to a 9-year old street urchin scratching through garbage in an alleyway. He’s dirty and bedraggled, the rags on his welted skin could pass for clothes in bad light. In one hand, he holds a string tied around a three-legged doggy sniffing at the scraps of food the kid finds. The camera stays on the dog. The voice-over (text?) start in:
“He has been feverish the past three days. He’s been living in dustbins and eating from the pavement. By age six, he had four broken bones, he ran away because he could not stand the beatings anymore. He does not remember ever sleeping indoors. Wherever he goes, people swear and shout and throw things at him.” Pause as the kid and his doggy shuffles down the ally, overturning rubbish.
“If we were talking about the dog, you would have sent money already.”
A thing is only a sin if you feel bad about it. Those making rules to “help the poor” feel very good about themselves, thank you very much.
The sooner we start taxing “welfare contributions” instead of basic necessities, the better.

Reply to  paranoid goy
February 7, 2021 9:57 am

A sad but all too true observation.

Reply to  Derg
February 5, 2021 5:21 pm

This has nothing to do with CO2/global warming….and everything to do with China..the UN…and our 1 would government

Reply to  Derg
February 5, 2021 6:43 pm

Excellent article Willis – you are entirely correct!
This is from 2017 – and similar posts dating back to 2013.
We are governed by scoundrels and imbeciles.
Regards, Allan

“It is the obligation of responsible, competent professionals to blow-the-whistle on this (global warming) scam, and to encourage the availability of cheap, reliable, abundant energy systems for humanity. This is especially true for the elderly and the poor, and for the struggling peoples of the developing world.”

The elderly and the poor in the United Kingdom, Germany and other countries are suffering increased winter deaths due to high energy costs. In the UK, this human disaster is called “Heat or Eat”.

The Excess Winter Mortality Rate in Britain is much higher than that in Canada. Canada has a population of about 35 million and the UK about 65 million, but Excess Winter Mortality in Canada is about 5000 to 10,000 per year, and in the UK it is 25,000 to 50,000 per year.

Canada and the UK have genetically similar populations and similar health care systems. Canada tends to be colder but mostly drier than the UK. However, Canada generally has much lower energy costs and better-insulated housing and probably better central heating systems, on average. This suggests that adaptation to winter and low energy costs are significant drivers of lower Winter Mortality rates.

Imagine IF the UK had competent politicians in the past several decades instead of warmist imbeciles. Instead of spending billions on green energy debacles, they could have spent the funds on improving home insulation and central heating, and encouraged fracking of shales to reduce natural gas prices., and a whole lot of grannies and grandpa’s would still be alive for their grandchildren.

Cheap, abundant, reliable energy is the lifeblood of society – it IS that simple.

When politicians fool with energy systems, real people suffer and die.

Regards, Allan

“Cold Weather Kills 20 Times as Many People as Hot Weather”, September 4, 2015
by Joseph D’Aleo and Allan MacRae

Jon Salmi
February 6, 2021 1:46 pm

Ah, England, where the poor are given such a choice to die of starvation or to die by freezing to death. I am afraid it won’t be long before this choice comes to America, California first.

Jon-Anders Grannes
Reply to  Derg
February 5, 2021 11:56 pm

Neo-marxists deconstructing the Western civilization culture and and economy? “The desire to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it” — H L Mencken” and “Affordable energy in ample quantities is the lifeblood of the industrial societies and a prerequisite for the economic development of the others.” — John P. Holdren, Science Adviser to President Obama. Published in Science 9 February 2001”

Jon-Anders Grannes
Reply to  Jon-Anders Grannes
February 6, 2021 7:29 am

In order to save the future poor we have to kill today’s poor??

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Jon-Anders Grannes
February 6, 2021 12:19 pm

Something Kerry learned in Vietnam – “we had to destroy the village in order to save it.”

Tom Morrow
Reply to  Jon-Anders Grannes
February 7, 2021 10:26 am

Just like Thanos’ plan to save life by murdering half of all living beings.

Reply to  Derg
February 6, 2021 10:08 am

Willis, well said
another excellent article

John L
Reply to  Derg
February 6, 2021 11:52 am

Well stated.

Jeremiah Puckett
Reply to  Derg
February 7, 2021 12:16 pm

Can’t help the poor. The poor will always be poor unless they bring themselves out of poverty.

Reply to  Jeremiah Puckett
February 8, 2021 7:36 am

Got to love platitudes. While it’s not impossible to drag oneself out of poverty it is extremely difficult when every penny earned goes towards just surviving another day. That doesn’t even explain how children and pensioners on fixed income are suppose to drag themselves out of poverty so they can afford the higher energy costs…

February 5, 2021 1:40 pm

And most of us poor people don’t like being shafted.


PS: Thanks, Willis

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Bob Tisdale
February 5, 2021 6:24 pm

Actually most of us in the Deplorable category for Dimwit marxists and their eleitist bedfellows
I’m eating Almond crusted sea bass right now from Whole Foods market and washing it down with a nice IPA. While I’m far, far from rich, I’m comfortable, but only as long …. as gas and electricity remain reasonable. Take away our currently reasonable prices for energy (as Willis shows in his graphs), and a hundred million Americans will find themselves quickly poor, needing a government hand-out.

That is the plan. Government assistance for a once vibrant middle class that could give government the middle finger. It is why we continue to see the things happening now around the Plandemic, told to get vaccinated but you’ll still be told to wear a mask and social distance for another year. Part of control strategy to garner public compliance to government mandates.

February 5, 2021 1:41 pm

Let the poor drive Teslas

Tim Gorman
Reply to  kenji
February 5, 2021 2:22 pm

And sit in them at night when it is cold and run the heater?

Reply to  kenji
February 5, 2021 2:33 pm

We know how that turned out for the lady who said “Let them eat cake.”

One of my pet theories is that fear of Bolshevism tempered America’s treatment of its working class.

A proverb points out that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Similarly, those who imagine they are our betters should learn to fear the power of the majority.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  commieBob
February 5, 2021 3:35 pm

Just a historical trivia note. In Marie Antoinette’s time, ‘cake’ in French (gateau) had two meanings. One was cake as we understand it. The other was burnt bread crusts. She was guillotined for the second, not the first.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
February 5, 2021 4:50 pm

Actually, the statement usually attributed to Queen Marie was “Qu’ils mangent de la brioche“, where brioche is a bread-like pastry enriched with eggs and butter.

But there is no evidence from any writings made at time of the Revolution that she said those words. The first such attribution occurred in 1843 by Alphonse Karr in his monthly journal, “Les Guêpes” [The Wasps], which he preceded with the qualification “vrai ou faux” [true or false], and later suggested it was said by a duchess of Tuscany 30 years prior the Revolution. You can verify this yourself by searching for ‘brioche’ in the ‘Gutenberg’ collection of Karr’s journal:

The phrase also appears in Rousseau’s Confessions, published 7 years before the Revolution:

Last edited 2 years ago by Johanus
Rory Forbes
Reply to  Johanus
February 5, 2021 5:25 pm

Yours is the version I’m familiar with, after some detective work. Furthermore, even if she did say something along that line (brioche being a kind of luxury bread, often used in high end hamburger buns), her error was not understanding that if the poor had no bread, it’s unlikely they’d have access to brioche. She was merely trying to be helpful.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  kenji
February 5, 2021 6:47 pm

GM has EV auto advert planned for Sunday’s Super Bowl.

You can be sure that GM will not tell the American people watching Will Ferrell in that ad what the MSRP Sticker Price will be on those GM EVs.

Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 1:43 pm

Energy subsidies for the poor will become just another entitlement that binds them to the socialist cause. It’s all part of the plan.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 2:23 pm

You pretty much nailed it!

Robert W Turner
Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 2:33 pm

The viscous cycle of government growth, more problems, more government growth is coming to a climax that we aren’t going to enjoy.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Robert W Turner
February 5, 2021 3:44 pm

Personally, I’m glad it’s viscous, and not more liquid.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
February 5, 2021 6:21 pm

But it is shear madness…

Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
February 6, 2021 5:24 am

yes , fleeced again!

John the Econ
Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 2:53 pm

That’s what I call the “Progressive War on the Middle Class”: The rich don’t care because they can afford it. The poor will get subsidized. The middle class will get a lower standard of living and the bill.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  John the Econ
February 5, 2021 2:56 pm

Marxism is the philosophy of shared misery. There won’t be any middle class. There will be the equal and the more-than-equal. The equal will all live in misery.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 5, 2021 4:56 pm

Read The Orwell book, “Animal Farm”. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” 

Dave Fair
Reply to  John the Econ
February 5, 2021 3:23 pm

“You can fool some of the people ….”

Reply to  Dave Fair
February 5, 2021 6:06 pm

The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots.

Thomas Jefferson

Reply to  Dave Fair
February 5, 2021 7:42 pm

Recently, with MSM backing and “progressive” education standards…

….. it seems that the saying should be changed to …

“You can fool MOST of the people MOST of the time…

Reply to  fred250
February 6, 2021 12:09 am

You can fool all of the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.
Unless you get them hooked onto ‘social media’.

paul courtney
Reply to  fred250
February 6, 2021 4:24 am

Mr. 250: From what I saw, they fooled 48% of the voters one time. The rest of the ballots were created to fit a model.

Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 4:04 pm

More entitlements mean more money printing, more taxes and more inflation.
All on top of a centrally planned economy.
It’s called income redistribution, comrade!

Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 4:44 pm

Yes, the issue as we have observed is progressive prices, not costs, where the former is remediated in a functional, productive market economy, not shared/shifted through a single/central/monopolistic solution.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 6:38 pm

Yes, but energy subsidies do not compensate the poor for everything they buy, and everything they buy will increase in price if transporation costs increase.

The government reimbursing the poor for the gasoline taxes they pay, won’t help them out with their other increased costs. At least, I have never heard of a CO2/gasoline tax that included a provision for reimbursing the poor for *all* their increased costs. It’s usually just for the gasoline taxes.

And, for every $0.80 rise in the price of a gallon of gasoline in the United States, it knocks about one percentage point off U.S. GDP.

Gasoline/CO2 taxes are terrible ideas. They should be resisted at every turn.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 6, 2021 4:13 am

No, but they can just raise the SNAP allowance–by fiat apparently, rather than a Congressional directive. Fixed that problem.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Lee Scott
February 5, 2021 6:50 pm

John Kerry and Bloomberg will still have the Private jets, yachts, and properties around the world to travel to … in order to help further Climate diplomacy.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
February 6, 2021 12:48 pm

And Obama will have his new mansion by the beach on elite Martha’s Vineyard.

Reply to  Lee Scott
February 6, 2021 12:06 am

All subsidies are taxes on the poor. You and commieBob should listen more attentively at your Bolshevik International soviet gettogethers…. Stop taxing the poor, and they will need neither subsidies, nor your patronising.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  paranoid goy
February 6, 2021 4:39 am

“All subsidies are taxes on the poor.”

That is the bottom line.

Corporatons that get their taxes increased, pass the increased costs to their customers.

Raising taxes and the resulting rise in costs to the public, reduces economic activity. Reducing economic activity, reduces the number of jobs available.

Raising taxes beyond what is required to keep the government running is a very bad idea. Government bureaucrats waste much of the money they are given, so we should not give them any more than necessary.

The smallest government is the best government. The smallest government budget is the best budget.

Raising taxes takes money out of everyone’s pocket and puts that money in a goverment bureaucrat’s pocket. Is that what you want done with your money? Not me.

Reply to  Lee Scott
February 6, 2021 5:23 am

yeah they give us a subsidy
and then the power co ramps the price up to whatever the subsidy saved us.
happens every time!
vic govt stated our bills would drop 250 a yr so? they ROSE by that amount instead

john york
Reply to  Lee Scott
February 6, 2021 7:12 am

Actually, I’ve often wondered if freezing deaths for the elderly is a plus for the Progressives. It helps alleviate the costs of health care for their governments.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  john york
February 6, 2021 2:21 pm

It wasn’t an accident that Cuomo and other democratic governors forced sick people back into old folks homes

Alfredo Faubel
February 5, 2021 1:45 pm

Why isn’t Spain on the charts?

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Alfredo Faubel
February 5, 2021 5:26 pm

Because they’re “off the charts“.

A C Osborn
Reply to  Alfredo Faubel
February 6, 2021 1:39 am

Neither is the UK.

February 5, 2021 1:45 pm

Need to fix the x-axis label on the CO2 tons per capital reduction chart.

Curious George
February 5, 2021 1:46 pm

This was never about the climate. It is about how to get money from the working people.

Reply to  Curious George
February 5, 2021 5:00 pm

Not that. It’s wealth redistribution. Except it’s not take from the rich and give to the poor; it’s take from everyone and the government keeps it and uses it to provide services which the poor depend on.

That’s the key– getting a large portion of the population dependent on government programs. That’s how a political party– the democrats– grows its voter base. Then said political party can claim in Congress that any proposal to reduce these services would “hurt the children” or “leave millions homeless”.

Reply to  leowaj
February 6, 2021 12:22 am

I don’t see where they are “supplying services the poor depend on” at all. If it was not for volunteer soup kitchens, sidewalk handouts and the occasional devout congregation donating unsued buildings as shelters, the poor would not even survive to put up their little tents under the bridges.
I do see where every transaction pumps money towards the centre few. The aim is to concentrate ALL property into one account, then this One Account will be handed over to the One King, and everyone not directly connected to His court will become serfs in His Kingdom. Or die.
The myth of Big Government is pure Bolshevik propaganda to tech you to hate and distrust your own government. That is why they make sure only the kakastocracy get elected.
The Protocols of Bolsch describe this in quite vivid and misanthropic detail.
Viva Acoitheist Anarchy!
P.S. If you think Anarchy means chaos or lack of government, go steal a friggin’ dictionary.

Reply to  paranoid goy
February 7, 2021 10:08 am

As long as they CONVINCE people they’re supplying those services, what they ACTUALLY do doesn’t matter.

February 5, 2021 1:56 pm

Life on Earth can be reduced to one single factor CO2. However without water the conditions for current life forms would not exist.

Climate on Earth depends entirely on water.
Its distribution across the surface.
Its thermal inertia by virtue of its heat capacity and quantity.
Its insulating property as sea ice.
Its reflective properties as ice in the atmosphere.
Its buoyancy in the atmosphere.
Its evaporation and precipitation and the heat transport that imbues.

Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 1:59 pm

You ain’t seen nuttin’ yet:

Newly minted Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg wants US to lead world in high-speed rail

“We’ve been asked to settle for less in this country, and I just don’t know why people in other countries ought to have better train service and more investment in high-speed train service than Americans do,” Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg said.

Reply to  Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 2:47 pm

CA couldn’t afford it … but the US Taxpayer can! Right?

John Endicott
Reply to  Kenji
February 9, 2021 3:28 am

California can’t print as much money as it needs to get the job done, the US theoretically can. That printing too much money will ruin the economy apparently isn’t even a consideration to those on the left.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 3:15 pm

High speed rail in a nation this spread out is a joke, for many reasons. As population centers move it is far easier to build new airports than it is to build new high speed rail. Or even to build shuttle rail from the new population center to an old airport.

Take Kansas City to St. Louis as a prime example. Why would you build a high-speed rail link when it is far easier to jump on the interstate in a car and have the car to go anywhere in the St Louis metro area. With the rail link you would have to rent a car at the destination with all the hassle that represents. Or fly from KC to St Louis and take the shuttle train downtown with stops all along the way, like the central west end, the Union hotel, etc.

Buttigieg is a typical politician. Doubtful he even knows any engineering let alone have any physical experience to inform his judgement.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 5, 2021 3:42 pm

PB is a joke. Couldn’t even run South Bend competently. His total previous transportation experience was its 86 bus money losing public transit system.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 5, 2021 5:56 pm

have the car to go anywhere in the St Louis metro area

Which is the problem for the Left. If you are just allowed to go anywhere, who knows what you’ll get up to? You might meet up with “wreckers” or “right wing extremists” or (for the PETA wing of the Party) buy an illegal cheeseburger!

We will soon have CoViD passports to determine whether we may leave our own State. Then our free range will be reduced to our own County, our own city, our own neighborhood – our own house.

Reply to  writing observer
February 6, 2021 12:25 am

Add vaccine certificates and 5G-enabled track-and-trace, and your nightmare is here!

Reply to  writing observer
February 7, 2021 10:09 am

I’ve already heard one of Biden’s staff talking about covid checkpoints on highways.

Bob Meyer
Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 5, 2021 6:22 pm

Knowing engineering isn’t always helpful. Herbert Hoover was one the premier mining engineers of his time. He even wrote a geology text. Despite this, his answer to the Depression was huge public works projects, raising tariffs and much higher income taxes.

And if you’re wondering, yes, I am an engineer.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Bob Meyer
February 5, 2021 6:48 pm

Hoover wasn’t doing any engineering except social engineering. No wonder he was bad at it.

There is a reason why passenger rail is slowly dying in the US. High speed rail won’t bring it back.

George Daddis
Reply to  Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 3:55 pm

Because European Countries are smaller than the US?
It sure ain’t because we haven’t thrown money at it.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 4:26 pm

Economic illiteracy. A very large country can’t command the full utilization of these rail services. 70 million people in a European country the size of a US county or two can.

I recall meeting a fellow on the British Columbia side of Crowsnest Pass through the Rockies who was the Member of Parliament for this beautiful riding. He told me his mountainous riding was larger than Switzerland! Just a note for scale.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Gary Pearse
February 5, 2021 6:56 pm

High speed rail might work from a very high density urban area to another very high density area that both have common interests. That just isn’t the case throughout most of the US. I mention Kansas City and St Louis again, there isn’t that much downtown to downtown business interest between the two cities. Or Kansas City downtown to Denver downtown. It’s quite different in many other countries like Japan or Singapore.

Reply to  Gary Pearse
February 5, 2021 7:11 pm

Our four contiguous National Parks including Banff, Jasper, Yoho and Kootenay are bigger than Switzerland.
Contiguous with them are ~six more Provincial Parks.
The largest town is Banff, population 8400. Jasper, the second-largest, has a population of 4600.
I have heard my idiot greenie friends say “The parks are being ruined by development!” These lefties never left the pavement.
When we used to hike in the mountains, on a typical day we would not see another person – all day!
You can fly east-west over SIX Time Zones in Canada and see only trees, but the greens will tell you that every single one of them is precious – except when firestorms burn them up and ruin the air quality for the entire province.
We are governed by scoundrels and imbeciles.

Tim Gorman
February 6, 2021 12:36 pm

My younest brother worked as a service manager for Allis-Chalmers many years ago. He was assigned to help with lumber equipment in British Columbia. I will never forget the pictures he brought home from the airplane he flew in on. Trees from horizon to horizon over a hundred mile trip, dotted with lakes and nary a city or even town to be seen.

Elle Webber
Reply to  Gary Pearse
February 5, 2021 8:49 pm

Montana is the same size as Germany. Germany = 83 million people. Montana = a bit over 1 million. Ergo,Germany can afford to run high speed trains crisscrossing their country.

Reply to  Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 5:21 pm

Tell it to Singapore, Pete.

Reply to  Gregory Woods
February 5, 2021 5:25 pm

Ummm,,, How will trains work with social distancing? That said, the American idea of individual freedom is seen as a fetish by the EU and the American left.

Reply to  Dennis Topczewski
February 6, 2021 12:29 am

Being faceteous, or just insulting the Americans?

February 5, 2021 2:03 pm

To really accenuate the differences you need to reference US minus California where the energy prices you quote are but a distant memory of a time when we were a representative democracy.

Gasoline average $3.27/gal. Electricity 19.9¢. Nota Bene. The 19.9¢ is misleadingly low.

February 5, 2021 2:06 pm

The difference in gasoline prices between USA and Europe is not a new phenomenon. I remember from my fist visit in the US in 1988, that the price of on gallon gasoline was quite similar to one litre in Norway. One gallon is 3.7 litres.

That explain why we should not expect more decrease in CO2 emissions in Europe from 2010 to 2019. If the gasoline price has an effect on CO2 emission, it had aleady happened in 2010.

And It indeed seems to have had an effect. Cars are on average smaller in Europe than in the US.
And they are safer.


Reply to  Jan kjetil Andersen
February 5, 2021 2:47 pm

The prices in Europe have been much higher and I think multiples of the USA since at least the late 60s. When stationed in Germany 1966 we got coupon books to buy gas at US rates and if you ran out of your allotment you had to buy at prevailing local rate.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Jan kjetil Andersen
February 5, 2021 5:33 pm

The price of gas in Europe has nothing whatever to do with CO2. It’s simple greed and over taxation in Europe … not to mention that Europe produced no oil or gas until late in the 20th century. The US has always been one of he largest producers of fossil fuels. It’s known as a free market (competition).

Reply to  Jan kjetil Andersen
February 5, 2021 6:13 pm

Is it the cars, or the driving conditions.
If all US driving was just around town, the severity of accidents would drop dramatically.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  MarkW
February 5, 2021 7:40 pm

I think it’s something else. A few years ago, I had the pleasure of driving around Germany on business. The Germans were absolutely the best drivers I’ve ever seen – though I might have been biased by living for a few years just prior in Maryland, home of the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Despite all my driving on roads with average speeds in excess of 100 mph the entire two week trip, I never saw a single accident. Their stats prove that this is not just a fluke of my experience. The rental car I had wasn’t anything I would consider particularly safe. If I hit is with my Toyota Tundra, you wouldn’t be able to find it. I think drivers in many European countries are just more skillful than American drivers. I don’t have an explanation for it, but I’ve seen it too many times over the years to doubt it.

Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
February 6, 2021 1:00 am

I think car size play a role. It is more challenging to drive a big car than a small. The distance from the driver’s seat to the vehicle’s right side is one moment. Anorher is the larger blindzones in large vehicles.

Car companies want to tell you that big and expensive cars are safer, but it is a lie.

Reply to  Jan kjetil Andersen
February 6, 2021 10:29 am

Part is cultural mindset I think.

In US there is attraction to “muscle cars” (NASCAR culture) and exceeding speed limits and performing less than safe lane changes are typical of about 10-20% of the drivers.

And we have a lot more drunk drivers. Not more drunks, just more drunk drivers. In Europe most of the drunks take buses or trollies to/from the pub or have a pub within reasonable walking distance.

Also in US we have a lot more old folks driving who should perhaps have their keys confiscated.

And most folks committing crimes in US use cars. We have a lot more cop chases. Many chases are related to drug possession, many will take a stupid dangerous risk to try and lose a cop in order to avoid to going to jail for possession.

Joe Crawford
Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
February 6, 2021 1:55 pm

I haven’t been to Germany since the early 1960’s but at least back then, from what I gathered in talking to the locals, the level of instruction they required in order to get a driver license seemed to be close to that required for an SCCA Regional Racing License in the U.S. The problem with American drivers are twofold; driver license tests are simplistic so driving instruction is set to the minimum requirements, and Detroit has always built autos that go like a bat-out-of-hell in a straight line but suffer from lousy cornering.

Reply to  Jan kjetil Andersen
February 5, 2021 7:08 pm

European cars are indeed smaller but they’re not any safer. The safest “light” vehicles are full size SUVs and pickup trucks. The National Transportation Safety Administration made this clear when Elon Musk falsely claimed that the Tesla Model 3 was the safest. While a small car can achieve the highest safety rating in a one-car accident, it stilll loses in a head-on crash with a very large vehicle. Simple physics – there is no substitute for mass.

Last edited 2 years ago by meab
Reply to  Meab
February 5, 2021 10:55 pm

Safest for who? Heavy cars are a little bit safer for the driver passengers in those cars, but they cause very much more damage to other objects they hit.

Poor rearward vision in large cars has also led to many “backover deaths” where vehicles have run over small children when backing out of driveways.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 4:51 am

Thanks for your interesting comment Willis. However, there exists many studies of this with other results.
For example Noland 2005
writes: “Results find that changes in vehicle efficiency are not associated with changes in traffic fatalities”

The Energy journal:
says: “Overall results suggest that while there may have been an association between fleet fuel efficiency improvements and traffic fatalities in the 1970s, this has largely disappeared”

Most convincing in my opinion is to simply compare fatality rate per driven km between US and a country with, on average, much smaller cars, such as for example UK. UK has far less fatalities.


John Endicott
Reply to  Jan Kjetil Andersen
February 9, 2021 3:43 am

There’s more difference between small European countries and a large country like the US than just car size. Because we are so geographically spread out, commute times tend to be longer (meaning more time spent behind the wheel per trip and consequentially more chance of fatigue which can contribute to more accidents), more miles are driven on high speed highways (where collisions are more likely to be fatal), etc. Not to mention the differences in driver education (as mentioned elsewhere, Americans are given the barest minimum of driver education, at it shows in how terrible many American drivers are. Bad driving = more accidents). Frankly you are comparing apples to oranges in order to come to a conclusion that fits your biases.

February 5, 2021 2:06 pm

Very impressive climate control panel, just beautiful.

One thing though, back in the seventies, when my eldest brother emigrated to Canada, he said that a Canadian gallon of fuel was about 60 cents. One liter of gas back then around here cost near 1 Swiss Frank, I think. So the gap between European and US/Canada energy cost already existed back then.

Steve Case
February 5, 2021 2:11 pm

“… the US has reduced emissions more than any of the countries shown above….”

Because of fracking, and guess who said he’d never ban fracking?

Did he do exactly that? First up on Google says, “Biden temporarily banned new oil and gas leasing on public lands”

And the lock-down was going to be for two weeks so the medical industry could get their ducks in a row.

And seat belt laws were only to be secondary to other traffic infractions.

And there are probably a zillion taxes that were only to be temporary.

February 5, 2021 2:12 pm

Scott Adams points out that we want people like John Kerry and our other leaders to use private jets because it makes them more efficient. That’s a fair point.

On the other hand, we do not want our policy makers to be immune from the effects of their own policies.

One of the things that made America great is that it is classless. Even people from humble backgrounds can excel and become rich and powerful. Then, in a couple of generations, their descendants will be back down with the rest of us. Folks like John Kerry must be able to at least imagine what it would be like to freeze in the dark. Apparently that’s not on his radar.

How about a huge surtax on fuel for private jets. Every hour John Kerry spends in the air in his private jet should make him feel significant pain.

Similarly, how about a huge surtax on energy for mansions.

We could call it the proportionality of pain principle.

Reply to  commieBob
February 5, 2021 2:37 pm

If Kerry’s jet augured into the ground right after takeoff the US wouldn’t skip a beat. No one is that important.

This reminds me of an early Drew Carey routine., where he discussed the bulletproof Popemobile, and reflected “If the Pope is afraid to die, what f*cking chance do the rest of us have?”

Dave Fair
Reply to  commieBob
February 5, 2021 3:35 pm

Kerry married well; he will never feel any sort of economic pain. Pitchforks, tar, feathers and rails are the only things that elitists ever fear. Well, maybe yellow vests. RESIST!

Mr. Lee
Reply to  commieBob
February 5, 2021 4:17 pm

Scott Adams points out that we want people like John Kerry and our other leaders to use private jets because it makes them more efficient. That’s a fair point.

How so? What does John Kerry do that couldn’t be done electronically? Glad hand? Stay in nice hotels? Kerry is a well-heeled pencil pusher. He could stay in his bedroom and ensuite for the rest of his life and get just as much, if not more, done.

Reply to  Mr. Lee
February 5, 2021 6:45 pm

Which is nothing, right?

February 5, 2021 2:15 pm

The per capita CO2 reduction is somewhat misleading. US and Canada are the low hanging fruit when it comes to energy conservation compared to the rest of the world.

The CO2 reduction in the US has mostly been achieved through conversion from coal to gas in electricity generation.

The three most popular personal vehicle models sold in the USA in 2020 were all over 3 tonne. In fact one of them weighs over 4 tonne. None of them make any serious attempt to conserve energy.

When China and India are comparable for per capita energy consumption with the USA then oil prices will be in the stratosphere.

Screen Shot 2021-02-06 at 9.03.40 am.png
Reply to  RickWill
February 5, 2021 2:34 pm

Arnold S probably did not see the irony of picking up Greta T in his 6X6 Pinzgauer that gets a not so surprising 12mpg. Two eco warriors in one of the worst examples of economic transport. But Swiss made.

February 5, 2021 2:20 pm

The left will just say “oh, we are giving the poor subsidies, so they won’t have to pay anything for energy”, to which I say “ok, so then how is the high energy price supposed to reduce demand if they don’t have to pay anything?”

Robert W Turner
Reply to  WR2
February 5, 2021 2:38 pm

Doing away with the middle class ought to do it.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  WR2
February 5, 2021 2:57 pm

There won’t be any energy to pay for, even with subsidies.

Robert W Turner
February 5, 2021 2:30 pm

Sad but true. You could make this point even more clear by separating the US into Democrat vs Republican controlled states.

Ben Vorlich
February 5, 2021 2:34 pm

No UK in your charts?
I think our petrol/gasoline/diesel prices are similar to France possibly a bit less and electricity prices a bit more expensive. I’m not sure about natural gas prices, although energy prices are going up in the UK in March I think.

France also has start from a low CO2 per capita base due to Nuclear power generation of electricity and never used much coal or oil.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 12:58 am

And I thought we were paying through the nose!!

You’ve almost cheered me up om a dreichmorning

Ron Balsys
February 5, 2021 2:35 pm

You can see the madness inherent in the climate mob. One of the solutions is hydrogen powered cars. Great, let’s replace the CO2 exhaust with H20 and viola we decarbonise to save the planet, yeh! What, H20 is is worse greenhouse gas then CO2, look go away with your denialism.
Enjoy the interglacial (while it lasts).

Reply to  Ron Balsys
February 5, 2021 11:18 pm

Never mind that producing hydrogen in any significant quantity takes more energy than you’ll ever get back from combusting it.

Al Miller
February 5, 2021 2:42 pm

Well said Mr. Eschenbach! I’ve been saying for decades to any one who will listen to me (not many unfortunately) that this war on CO2 is a crime against humanity to line the pockets of the few. Like, to point out the numerous tangible things that could be done to actually help people and humanity in general, whether it’s health, hunger, assisting those in poverty out, looking for dangerous space objects etc. etc. etc. As has been stated on this website already climate/ weather related deaths are at an all time low and are in fact very close to zero.
It really boggles the mind how so many are easily fooled and how difficult it is to de-program them.

February 5, 2021 2:49 pm

I just went through stations that existed since 1900 and identified locations that had a low BI. It was difficult to find any stations at all that showed warming. Here is a list of 100 stations that show no warming trend at all over the past 100+ years. How can CO2 increase from under 300 to 410 and not have an impact on temperatures in these locations? Do the laws of Physics cease to exist in these locations? We are hurting the poor based on a complete and utter lie.

Steveston (49.1333N, 123.1833W) ID:CA001107710
Maiduguri (11.8500N, 13.0830E) ID:NIM00065082
Zanzibar (6.222S, 39.2250E) ID:TZM00063870
Laghouat (33.7997N, 2.8900E) ID:AGE00147719
Luqa (35.8500N, 14.4831E) ID:MT000016597
Ponta Delgada (37.7410N, 25.698W) ID:POM00008512
Wauseon Wtp (41.5183N, 84.1453W) ID:USC00338822
Valentia Observatory (51.9394N, 10.2219W) ID:EI000003953
Dombaas (62.0830N, 9.1170E) ID:NOM00001233
Okecie (52.1660N, 20.9670E) ID:PLM00012375
Vilnius (54.6331N, 25.1000E) ID:LH000026730
Vardo (70.3670N, 31.1000E) ID:NO000098550
Port Blair (11.6670N, 92.7170E) ID:IN099999901
Nagpur Sonegaon (21.1000N, 79.0500E) ID:IN012141800
Indore (22.7170N, 75.8000E) ID:IN011170400
Enisejsk (58.4500N, 92.1500E) ID:RSM00029263
Vladivostok (43.8000N, 131.9331E) ID:RSM00031960
Nikolaevsk Na Amure (53.1500N, 140.7164E) ID:RSM00031369
Nemuro (43.3330N, 145.5830E) ID:JA000047420
York (31.8997S, 116.7650E) ID:ASN00010311
Albany (35.0289S, 117.8808E) ID:ASN00009500
Adelaide West Terrace (34.9254S, 138.5869E) ID:ASN00023000
Yamba Pilot Station (29.4333S, 153.3633E) ID:ASN00058012
Wilsons Promontory Lighthouse (39.1297S, 146.4244E) ID:ASN00085096
Mount Gambier Post Office (37.8333S, 140.7833E) ID:ASN00026020
Cape Otway Lighthouse (38.8556S, 143.5128E) ID:ASN00090015
Lencois (12.567S, 41.383W) ID:BR047571250
Eagle (64.7856N, 141.2036W) ID:USC00502607
Orland (39.7458N, 122.1997W) ID:USC00046506
Bahia Blanca Aero (38.733S, 62.167W) ID:AR000877500
Punta Arenas (53.0S, 70.967W) ID:CI000085934
Brazzaville (4.25S, 15.2500E) ID:CF000004450
Durban Intl (29.97S, 30.9510E) ID:SFM00068588
Port Elizabeth Intl (33.985S, 25.6170E) ID:SFM00068842
Zanzibar (6.222S, 39.2250E) ID:TZM00063870
Sandakan (5.9000N, 118.0670E) ID:MY000096491
Aparri (18.3670N, 121.6330E) ID:RP000098232
Darwin Airport (12.4239S, 130.8925E) ID:ASN00014015
Palmerville (16.0008S, 144.0758E) ID:ASN00028004
Yamba Pilot Station (29.4333S, 153.3633E) ID:ASN00058012
Coonabarabran Namoi Street (31.2712S, 149.2714E) ID:ASN00064008
Newcastle Nobbys Signal Stati (32.9185S, 151.7985E) ID:ASN00061055
Moruya Heads Pilot Station (35.9093S, 150.1532E) ID:ASN00069018
Omeo (37.1017S, 147.6008E) ID:ASN00083090
Gabo Island Lighthouse (37.5679S, 149.9158E) ID:ASN00084016
Wilsons Promontory Lighthouse (39.1297S, 146.4244E) ID:ASN00085096
Echucaaerodrome (36.1647S, 144.7642E) ID:ASN00080015
Cape Otway Lighthouse (38.8556S, 143.5128E) ID:ASN00090015
Maryborough (37.056S, 143.7320E) ID:ASN00088043
Longerenong (36.6722S, 142.2991E) ID:ASN00079028
Christchurch Intl (43.489S, 172.5320E) ID:NZM00093780
Hokitika Aerodrome (42.717S, 170.9830E) ID:NZ000936150
Auckland Aero Aws (37.0S, 174.8000E) ID:NZM00093110
St Paul Island Ap (57.1553N, 170.2222W) ID:USW00025713
Nome Muni Ap (64.5111N, 165.44W) ID:USW00026617
Kodiak Ap (57.7511N, 152.4856W) ID:USW00025501
Eagle (64.7856N, 141.2036W) ID:USC00502607
Dawson A (64.0500N, 139.1333W) ID:CA002100402
Atlin (59.5667N, 133.7W) ID:CA001200560
Juneau Intl Ap (58.3567N, 134.5639W) ID:USW00025309
Skagway (59.4547N, 135.3136W) ID:USC00508525
Hay River A (60.8333N, 115.7833W) ID:CA002202400
Prince Albert A (53.2167N, 105.6667W) ID:CA004056240
Kamloops A (50.7000N, 120.45W) ID:CA001163780
Banff (51.1833N, 115.5667W) ID:CA003050520
Mina (38.3844N, 118.1056W) ID:USC00265168
Merced Muni Ap (37.2847N, 120.5128W) ID:USW00023257
So Entr Yosemite Np (37.5122N, 119.6331W) ID:USC00048380
Santa Maria (34.9500N, 120.4333W) ID:USC00047940
Maricopa (35.0833N, 119.3833W) ID:USC00045338
Ojai (34.4478N, 119.2275W) ID:USC00046399
Death Valley (36.4622N, 116.8669W) ID:USC00042319
Rio Grande City (26.3769N, 98.8117W) ID:USC00417622
Beeville 5 Ne (28.4575N, 97.7061W) ID:USC00410639
Carlsbad (32.3478N, 104.2225W) ID:USC00291469
Burnet (30.7586N, 98.2339W) ID:USC00411250
Mtn Park (32.9539N, 105.8225W) ID:USC00295960
Williams (35.2414N, 112.1928W) ID:USC00029359
Needles Ap (34.7675N, 114.6189W) ID:USW00023179
Loa (38.4058N, 111.6433W) ID:USC00425148
Priest River Exp Stn (48.3511N, 116.8353W) ID:USC00107386
Republic (48.6469N, 118.7314W) ID:USC00456974
Rangely 1E (40.0892N, 108.7722W) ID:USC00056832
Lovelock (40.1906N, 118.4767W) ID:USC00264698
Pendleton (45.6906N, 118.8528W) ID:USW00024155
Nevada City (39.2467N, 121.0008W) ID:USC00046136
Culbertson (48.1503N, 104.5089W) ID:USC00242122
Indian Head Cda (50.5500N, 103.65W) ID:CA004013480
Sherman (33.7033N, 96.6419W) ID:USC00418274
Ballinger 2 Nw (31.7414N, 99.9764W) ID:USC00410493
Ocala (29.1639N, 82.0778W) ID:USC00086414
Akron 4 E (40.1550N, 103.1417W) ID:USC00050109
Yates Ctr (37.8786N, 95.7292W) ID:USC00149080
Alfred (42.2497N, 77.7583W) ID:USC00300085
Georgetown (6.8000N, 58.15W) ID:GYM00081001
Casa Blancala Habana (23.1670N, 82.35W) ID:CUM00078325
Ft Kent (47.2386N, 68.6136W) ID:USC00172878
Moosonee (51.2833N, 80.6W) ID:CA006075420
Jackman (45.6275N, 70.2583W) ID:USC00174086
Columbia Rgnl Ap (38.8169N, 92.2183W) ID:USW00003945

Dave Fair
Reply to  CO2isLife
February 5, 2021 3:41 pm

No problem; CliSci will just homogenize in some warming, something to track CO2 concentrations.

Peter W
Reply to  CO2isLife
February 5, 2021 3:56 pm

Obviously the prior temperature figures have not been properly adjusted.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  CO2isLife
February 5, 2021 5:05 pm

I’vr been pushing this for a long time as to why GAT is a crock. For every station you have listed, someone needs to find one that has what, 3 degrees of warming to average 1.5 degrees. You can’t find them, you just can’t unless you include UHI locations. What does that tell you?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 6, 2021 4:54 pm

Don’t need to. What you do is first homogenize all the urban and rural stations so the UHI gets spread to the rural readings. Then you compare the homgenized urban stations to the homogenized rural stations and subtract the difference. In this way you can make the claim that you have corrected for UHI while actually spreading it across the entire planet! Thus you can get only 1 in 10 stations actually showing that 3 C of warming but spread it across the 9 that don’t to get your 1.5C global average.

Reply to  CO2isLife
February 5, 2021 5:55 pm

The Laws of Physics on our planet Earth impart thermostatic control of the tropical oceans to limit further heat uptake at 30C and reduce rate of heat loss from the Arctic and Southern Oceans by providing an insulating layer of sea ice at -2C.

While there is good distribution of water over the globe and orbital geometry remains close to present conditions, the average surface temperature on Earth will be close to 14C, the numeric average of the two extremes.

CO2 plays Zero role in Earth’s energy balance – it is just bunkum.

If you have found a large number of stations showing zero trend, you have found stations that have less measurement system flaws than others. It should be no surprise. It is exactly what the Laws of Physics requires of the Earth’s surface temperature.

Reply to  CO2isLife
February 5, 2021 6:46 pm

You need Nick Stokes to explain to you these localised anomalies

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  CO2isLife
February 5, 2021 6:56 pm

They clearly do not know how to read thermometers at those locations. NOAA and NASA will help them.

Peta of Newark
February 5, 2021 2:55 pm

Immaculate timing. epic.

These 2 came in just today…
“”Energy prices will rise for millions of people across the UK in April, at a time when finances are squeezed.””

They’re talking an extra £96 to make annual average of £1,318
So much for reigning in inflation to 2%. shakes head
From here

So why are the prices rising?
The answer is in the article also…
“”Regulator Ofgem said the price cap for default domestic energy deals would be raised to cover suppliers’ extra costs“”

Well OK then, but what are these ‘extra costs
Brace yourselves, we need a ride over to the Grauniad for that..
“”Queen’s property manager banks huge windfarm bonanza“”
Of course that being the Grauniad, they struggle to say but bless ’em they actually do say that: HM Government UK is in for a bonanza of 3 times what Good Ol’ Bessie is in line for.
Click ‘eye sanitizer’ optionally recommended.

Even worse, of that £96 figure quoted above, £5 is pure extra (VAT) tax on top of the £149 per year existing VAT on fuel
So Just The Tax has gone up by over twice their Inflation Target

Some of us recall, (from 8 or 9 yrs ago) when we were told that “Smart Meters” would cost £346 each to install but, “would still save their owners money

Smart Meters now cost (the energy consumers, who else good grief!) well North of £1,000 each to install yet are now speculated to generate savings for the householder of, wait for it, wait…

Eleven Quid per year
What sort of sick joke investment is that?

That £96 would be completely laughable if not for the fact that HM Gov UK actually believes it.
And now, despite this ‘wind bonanza’, Power Companies want the right to use a completely fresh re-installation of Smart Meters so as to remotely switch off electric car chargers and Heat Pumps.
Not enough leccy you see.
Even before hardly any have been bought, driven, installed or used.

And in the UK’s damp & wet Climate, soon-to-be-mandatory Heat Pumps are a complete joke

While their attempt at Energy Efficiency has turned into unspeakable evil, summed up in two words:
Grenfell Tower

Heads need to roll

Last edited 2 years ago by Peta of Newark
old engineer
February 5, 2021 2:58 pm

Almost every city in the U.S. has a “Climate Action Plan.” All of these plans spend a good deal of the plan discussing “Climate justice.” Willis has just demonstrated why. The cost is going to devastate the poor.

But “Climate justice” means that the poor are not supposed to pay more. So the middle class pays the cost for themselves and the poor. Which drives the bottom of the middle class into poverty. This process continues until there is no middle class, and everyone except the very rich are screwed.

That’s “Climate Justice.”

Climate believer
February 5, 2021 2:58 pm

Again per the report, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus are the countries with the highest share of the population who are unable to heat their homes.”

The total population of these countries is 30 million….. just saying.

John the Econ
February 5, 2021 3:01 pm

If Progressivism has been good at anything, it’s at spreading misery. Let them eat unrefrigerated cake.

Reply to  John the Econ
February 5, 2021 9:49 pm

I accidentally left a loaf of bread in the cupboard for 2 weeks

They can have that. With penicillin attached

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  fred250
February 6, 2021 2:35 pm

I baked today

February 5, 2021 3:06 pm

Looking at CO2 emissions decreases since 2000 is the wrong metric.

Europe has inflated energy prices since the 1970s oil shock. Much of the emission decreases from their tax policies occurred before the start date of the comparison.

That said, I do agree that the primary result of energy policies that increase the cost of energy are little more than a way to punish people for having low incomes.

More expensive gasoline makes it harder to save up and buy an efficient car, not easier.

Doug Huffman
February 5, 2021 3:14 pm

Bolshevism is the democratic power of the majority. Read The GULAG Archipelago.

Reply to  Doug Huffman
February 6, 2021 12:54 am

Rather go read what the Bolsheviks did everywhere they came to Power: France, USSR, Africa, USA…
Bolshevism is not democracy, they just promote democracy, then apoint the kakastocracy to pervert culture and religion via education. Everybody remebers the excesses of the Brownshirts, while the people they tried to stop, the Bolsheviks, are remembered as the Sixmillions that never existed.
The only time Hitler is on record for using the term “Untermenschen” was when he referred to the barbaric practices of the Bolsheviks in Russia. Tens of millions killed, for no reason other than not being Bolsheviks.
Bolshevism is the number one enemy of mankind, and currently, the bastards are winning. Because they perverted your education, and everyone that think there is a difference between globalism, free-market capitalism, communism and zionism. It is all the same religion, and their god has promised them rule over all nations, with an iron rod!

Rud Istvan
February 5, 2021 3:17 pm

Great post, Willis. This whole climate craziness is going to blow back on the Europeans and Biden bigly, and soon.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
February 5, 2021 9:49 pm

One can only hope !!

February 5, 2021 3:25 pm

Unfortunately, this article does not meet your usual high standard.

This is a very complex relationship.
Each country collects and spends tax differently.
It cannot be immediately assumed higher energy prices will hurt the poor.
Detailed comparison will need to made with similar ( and different)countries to determine the impacts of their energy policies over DECADES
Norway vs Denmark
Canada vs Australia
Norway vs Australia
Indonesia vs Philippines

Additionally, What is “poor” ?

There is a clear difference in poor and relatively poor.
America, Australia, Canada and Europe don’t really have poor, they have relatively poor.

A country like Indonesia arguably has poor and relatively poor.
The poor don’t even have electricity, running water or a motorcycle. Cheap fuel does not help them. Higher fuel prices ( taxes) in Indonesia could be used to build the desperately needed infrastructure for the poor.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Waza
February 5, 2021 3:50 pm

Free market Capitalism is the only thing that will “…  build the desperately needed infrastructure for the poor.” Increasing taxes and artificially boosting living costs will never lead to prosperity.

Reply to  Dave Fair
February 5, 2021 8:34 pm

You still need taxes in free market capitalist societies.
These taxes will always be unfair for someone.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Waza
February 6, 2021 5:36 am

Are you aware that the US didn’t even have an income tax till 1913? Much of the greatest growth of this country happened without an income tax. And the initial income tax topped out at 7%. And guess who it became law under? Ans: Marxist Woodrow Wilson.

Wilson: “ ‘State socialism’ is willing to act through state authority as it is at present organized. It proposes that all idea of a limitation of public authority by individual rights be put out of view, and that the State consider itself bound to stop only at what is unwise or futile in its universal superintendence alike of individual and of public interests. The thesis of the state socialist is, that no line can be drawn between private and public affairs which the State may not cross at will; that omnipotence of legislation is the first postulate of all just political theory.”

“Applied in a democratic state, such doctrine sounds radical, but not revolutionary. It is only an acceptance of the extremest logical conclusions deducible from democratic principles long ago received as respectable. For it is very clear that, in fundamental theory, socialism and democracy are almost, if not quite, one and the same. They both rest at bottom upon the absolute right of the community to determine its own destiny and that of its members. Men as communities are supreme over men as individuals. Limits of wisdom and convenience to the public control there may be: limits of principle there are, upon strict analysis, none.”

If this doesn’t describe present day Democrats I don’t know what does.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Waza
February 5, 2021 4:32 pm

Waza, I repectfully disagree with you. For three reasons.
First, you bring in the third world. WE stuck with Europe US. You complain about apples to oranges.
Second, you point to taxation differences. True, but ONLY as a result of first world differing climate policies.
Third, you say climate policies cannot be directly related to the third world poor. Wrong. They can. Consider access to electricity in the third world refused to be funded by the first world on climate grounds.

You want to be credible here, up your game—a lot.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Waza
February 5, 2021 5:43 pm

Prices always affect the poor. For the middle class an increase in costs is simply solved by charging more for their labour or increasing prices in the businesses they own. The rich simply don’t notice price increases. Unless the poor are living lives, isolated from market economies, they are badly affected by the most minor increases in daily costs.

Reply to  Waza
February 5, 2021 6:36 pm

David, Rud and Rory
I generally agree with all of you, but Willis is extremely good at getting to the nuts and bolts of issues.
This is not a good effort at doing that. He has made generalisations about very complex economic policies of countries that have totally different energy backgrounds.

Small Resource rich countries such as Norway or UAE are able to take control of both energy taxes and use it to develop infrastructure.
Both Norway and UAE could virtually give away energy to their citizens.

Here in Australia we are stuck in an trap of individual companies negotiating individual royalty contracts with states for “our” resources.

David, while I generally agree with free market economy, many Australians including myself would probably like a bit more control in the sell off and revenue spend of “our” resources.

Once again, price of energy is not necessary linked to making it harder for the poor.

Reply to  Waza
February 5, 2021 8:31 pm

The staggering material wealth of modern civilisation is completely dependent on cheap energy.

If energy prices rise, it doesn’t just effect energy bills; it effects the price of everything, from food to water to transport to holidays to shoes to clothing.

Your point about the relative poverty of “the poor” in different nations is true but irrelevant; the poorest of any country are always going to be those most affected by a general increase in prices.

Reply to  Observer
February 5, 2021 10:20 pm

Sorry your everything is just not correct.
Here in Victoria Australia taxes are used to subsidise low income people in many complex ways.
An elderly pensioner gets discounted water bills, council rates, public transport, medicines for example.
So everything is not more expensive.

To summarise my main concern with Willis’s article is he doesn’t dig into all these complex tax/subsidy relationships.

care must be taken when comparing, income, assets, subsidies to trying to compare how well the “ poor” are doing in each country.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 3:27 am

1. Willis, you are awesome at pulling other people’s poor claims apart, and scolding them for not including all the facts.
Yet in this article you show cost of energy for some Western European countries and compare to USA.
You then showed percentage of household income spent on energy in USA only.
Not the same Western European countries you showed the cost of energy for.
How can the reader know what the lowest quartile of Norwegians pay?
2. Based on my man in the street world knowledge three countries stand out like dogs bxxxx.
Norway and UAE who could have easily given free energy to all its citizens. But chose to build long lasting infrastructure.
Additionally, Norway’s revenue provide them with the world’s best retirement savings.
Indonesia is a country with descent resources but not huge. It struggles with trying to balance providing cheap energy to its citizens but gaining taxes to help the real poor.
3. What is poor? A person in rural Philippines without electricity or a motorcycle doesn’t spend much on energy and can live ok on US$5 a day, while an elderly Australian might be suffering on us$50 a day
4. You said
“How about you ponder and discuss that instead of telling us that we can eliminate energy poverty via wealth redistribution?”

“You’re pushing the idea that the way to solve a problem is not to actually solve the problem itself, but instead to redistribute the nation’s wealth to reduce the negative effects of the problem … not impressed. “

Please direct quote me when discussing what ideas I am pushing.

5. I have no doubt that bs taxes for the non climate problem will impact the poor. But that’s not what my comment was about.

Reply to  Waza
February 6, 2021 3:03 am

Unless a government increases subsidies to the poor more than the price increases, then obviously the poor will be affected more.

This is ignoring the deleterious effect that subsidies create in the first place – more and bigger government required to administer them, the general economic drag of the higher taxes required to pay for them, more and bigger government to administer the higher taxes and deal with the increased tax evasion that they incentivise, the capital misallocation that arises from the resultant skewed consumption…

ie, it’s not Willis who isn’t digging” into all these complex tax/subsidy relationships.”

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Observer
February 6, 2021 5:42 am

I’ve always called it “friction”, government friction. Every dollar sent to the government gets at least 10% rubbed off to fund larger government – government friction. This is why redistribution of wealth by government never works – for every dollar the government takes only $0.90 actually gets to the people. It’s less than the zero sum game Willis mentioned. It’s a lose-lose proposition.

It’s far more efficient if charity, for that is what state redistribution is always named – government charity, is directly between individuals. That way nothing gets rubbed off from friction.

February 5, 2021 3:57 pm


The US is much bigger than most of the European countries mentioned in your post. The energy policy and pricing is also greatly affected by state taxes, energy and climate change alarmism. The proportion of rich and poor also varies. I hope you will post an analysis as to how it is affecting Americans today in some key states. It seems the states with the highest energy price have also the most draconian energy policy but those states voted for several elections for democrat candidates.

H. D. Hoese
Reply to  eo
February 5, 2021 4:15 pm

It doesn’t take much economics to know that the states are different. I recall that my first job (or close, sacking groceries) was below the minimum wage, which I had never heard about or realize until years latter. Math that we are now told to believe about MW did not exist back then.

Mr. Lee
February 5, 2021 4:23 pm

The gasoline prices are excusable, as many nations would have to import, or lose export revenues if they consumed more petroleum. However, there is no excuse for the high electricity, as all these nations are quite capable of building as many nuclear power plants as they want. Abstaining from nuke when fossil fuels are scarce is cruel.

Gunga Din
February 5, 2021 4:33 pm

Because I can assure you, possibly helping tomorrow’s poor by actually hurting today’s poor is a crime against humanity, one you absolutely don’t want to have on your conscience.

That’s a twist (sort of) on the excuses used today in the “diversity and inclusion” stuff.
“Today’s poor are only poor because yesterday didn’t have our “diversity and inclusion”. We owe them reparations NOW!”

What will those poor in the future blame us for because “the CO2 control knob” not only kept their ancestors impoverished but also set the “non-elite” on the road to also being impoverished?

February 5, 2021 4:42 pm

Willis: My question is friendly (I appreciate your work); I’m just doing due diligence. You say “the poor spend a much larger part of their income on energy than do the rich.”

What is the basis for this statement? I have as yet no opinion, but such thoughts as these come to mind:
• Your data may come from electricity bills (somehow collated by zip code).
• Many rich people buy energy in ways that are hard to access (such as purchasing fuel for private jets or yachts), or frequently buying round trip tickets to distance locations (which show up only in the books of some airline).

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 5, 2021 6:55 pm

Thank you, Willis. I found your source:

My questions remain. In summary, I think that many energy expenses of people are outside their “household,” and that the richer a person is, the more that holds true.

For example, If you rich enough to order a take-out dinner delivered to your house, the cost of gasoline is charged to someone else, not to your household. If you are very rich (e.g., living in Billionaire’s Row in NYC), when you go somewhere it may be taxi or by a limousine service — in either case, the energy cost does not appear in the rich person’s “household”.)
I am not disagreeing with your thesis; merely pointing out that this data you reference does not support your thesis.

My best to you; thanks for all your posts.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  NeedleFactory
February 5, 2021 6:59 pm

If you live in a 1000 sqft house it costs the same to heat it whether you are rich or poor.

All those energy costs you mention do show up in the rich persons household. The cabbie doesn’t give rides for free. If his gas prices go up then so do the costs charged to the rider. Same for the delivery person.

There isn’t anything in life that is free. Somebody pays, somebody *always* pays.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 7, 2021 10:43 am

I’ve been poor enough that I couldn’t afford to pay the electric bill. I suppose that, technically, at that point my electric costs were 0% of my income.

But let’s run some real numbers:
When I was bringing home $800/month and paying $150/month on energy (gas & electric), I was putting 18.75% of my income toward household energy alone. That’s not even counting what I was paying for gas.

With an income of $10,000/month and paying $450/month (a high outlier but lets use it), that amounts to 4.5% of my income on household energy.

For anyone who has had the life experience, it is insanely easy to see that Willis is spot on with what he’s saying.

John Endicott
Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 9, 2021 4:21 am

Tim, NeedleFactory’s “point” (if you want to call it that) is that those costs aren’t showing up in the cost of energy totals. But what NF fails to consider is that everything people (rich and poor alike) buy have such indirect energy costs associated with them. If you are going to insist on adding those indirect costs into the rich person’s energy budget, you have to do so for the poor person as well, and as the poor person spends nearly all their money (that isn’t being directly spent on energy) on products that have such indirect costs while the rich only spend a fraction of their money on such things, meaning even under NF’s poor logic, the poor are still paying a higher percentage on energy, quite possibly even a higher percentage relative to the rich than Willis’s numbers would suggest.

John Endicott
Reply to  NeedleFactory
February 9, 2021 4:11 am

NeedleFactory, everything has energy costs built in. Whether you are rich or poor, when you buy food to put on your table, that food has energy costs that aren’t “charged” to the persons energy budget you by your logic. They’re indirect costs and as such they’re rather irrelevant, as those costs are built into the price you pay for those products or services. Even if you could add up all the indirect costs to add to the total, the poor would still be paying more as nearly 100%  of their income (or even more than 100%, considering many poor live under a mountain of debt and have no savings, meaning they’re spending more than they make in income) gets spent on things that have energy costs, either directly or indirectly, whereas the rich only spend a fraction of their income on such things (with the rest being saved/invested in order to make and have even more money).

Rather than Willis’s data not supporting his thesis, it’s your thesis that isn’t supported by any data or logic.

February 5, 2021 5:06 pm

Great piece, Willis! It’s a great addition to the sanity approach to energy.

Brooks H Hurd
February 5, 2021 5:11 pm

It is interesting that Germany has the highest electricity costs in Europe, but their CO2 reduction is close to the worst. Conversely, the US has both the lowest cost for electricity and the greatest reduction in CO2.

Our dear leader just killed over 11,000 well paying jobs to virtue signal with his pen. The result will almost certainly be an increase in CO2 emissions.

February 5, 2021 5:20 pm

Remember, we have to drive 55 to save us from importing oil which was all scheduled to run out in 1980. It’s the law. And don’t forget to turn your thermostat down to 55 degrees for the same reason.

Mike Dubrasich
February 5, 2021 5:40 pm

Excellent post. However, energy poverty is no different from food poverty, shelter poverty, or any other kind of poverty. Climate activism, whether rising gas prices, cap-and-trade, carbon taxes, brown-outs, “green” energy, or Green New Deals hurts the poor first, last, and always.

The oft stated claim is that Socialism, the Great Reset, Agenda 21, and other Climate Fixes are really “wealth distribution”. Yes, but not from rich to poor but from poor to rich. The wealth is flowing to the billionaire oligarchs, not from them. In every case, the proposals to “solve” the climate “problem” involve making the poor even poorer.

Note that the calls for “climate justice” for “under-served communities” will result in more poverty, more deprivation, more suffering for those communities. They (we) are the sheep to be sheared, not the beneficiaries. To Serve Man was a cookbook, for gosh sakes!

John Endicott
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
February 9, 2021 4:25 am

Indeed, and along those lines “climate justice” to “serve the poor” is a recipe for human sacrifice (and it’s not the “rich” that is being put on the alter to be sacrificed)

Joel O'Bryan
February 5, 2021 5:59 pm

Most really do not realize what a bullet we dodged when Obama’s Cap and Trade died in the US Senate in 2010. It died because Harry Reid couldn’t overcome the Republican filibuster.

After that, the Dems have vowed to never let that procedural impediment to their climate scam happen again, when they once again held both the House and Senate and the White House.
They lost the House in November 2010, then the Senate in 2014. Now they’ve barely got the Congress and Dementia Joe in the White House. So they spent gargantuan amounts last year to defeat Trump and try to take the Senate. They lost seats big time in House and only gained the barest of majorities in the Senate. So they must know that 2022 midterms they’ll likely lose the House. Time is running out on their attempts to ram climate scam energy policy down middle America’s throat and suffocate it under European-level gasoline and electricity prices.

Right now WV Senator (D) Joe Manchin is the only person standing in their way to steam roll the US into energy poverty, a poverty that Willis discusses in the above post. Dems are in pickle there because the WV Governor is currently a Republican should they find someway to show Manchin the door, that is, his near term replacement would be Republican appointed fill-in until an election . That fact certainly helps strengthen Manchin, in light of how desperate the Dems are to impose their schemes on the US..

Last edited 2 years ago by Joel O’Bryan
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
February 7, 2021 10:46 am

Romney will counter Manchin’s vote.

John Endicott
Reply to  TonyG
February 9, 2021 4:26 am

Sad but true. And even if Romney doesn’t step forward, there are plenty of other RINOs willing and able to do so.

Last edited 2 years ago by John Endicott
Bevan Dockery
February 5, 2021 6:01 pm

“Look, I don’t think CO2 is the secret knob that controls the climate. I think that’s a simplistic scientific misrepresentation of a very complex system”

The UN IPCC Greenhouse Effect is an exchange of state of the Earth’s outgoing energy. Absorption by atmospheric CO2 leads to the release of one or both of Radiant energy and/or Kinetic energy of motion of atmospheric molecules. The total energy involved remains the same. The process does not generate any energy so it cannot cause heating. The radiant energy, infrared, is at either the same or longer wavelength (colder) as the absorbed infrared. The kinetic energy of motion of the atmospheric molecules becomes just part of the normal convection that cools the Earth’s surface.

The laws of thermodynamics mandates that energy does not flow from cold to hot so any CO2 emitted radiation in the direction of the Earth’s surface, being of the same or longer wavelength as that absorbed, cannot heat the surface. It is blocked by the greater radiation pressure directed out from the surface.

If there was such a thing as the Greenhouse Effect, it would cause the Earth to cool as CO2 concentration increased because of the back-radiation of the Sun’s incoming infrared before it even got to heat the surface. 52% of the Sun’s energy density spectrum consists of infrared energy but the UN IPCC failed to mention that – strange omission from ‘the experts’ ??

There is no such thing as the Greenhouse Effect other than in a garden greenhouse where the increased temperature is due to blocking the cooling of the interior by convection currents.

February 5, 2021 6:02 pm

The proper way to do it (and to discourage gasoline consumption) is to have a large tax on fuel use, and then rebate all of the revenue on a, more or less, per capita basis. If you didn’t even own a car you’d still get a gasoline tax rebate, and the less you drove, the more money would go into your pocket. I’m not sure if this would be progressive or regressive with regard to income, but something like that would be more fair than just piling on a tax. Understand, I’m not arguing for that, I’m just saying that if you want to stifle fuel use, then to do it fairly you should rebate all of that revenue.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Tom
February 6, 2021 1:54 pm

I weep. Economic ignorance is rampant.

February 5, 2021 6:18 pm

Of all those countries listed, the US has the greatest wealth and income inequality. It is almost as if you want cheaper energy prices to justify this ever increasing inequality in the US. If they are freezing the people might just rise up, so keep heating cheap so we can rake in more $billions ?
Anyhow, freezing Cypriots and Greeks? They might be poor, but freezing??
And the poor of Norway? They might have cold weather, but poor??

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  kzb
February 5, 2021 7:00 pm

Norway has the wealth it does precisely because it has been a fossil fuel exporting power house.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  kzb
February 6, 2021 7:04 am

There are poor everywhere
And yes it gets cold in Southern Europe

And even 5c is deadly if you have no heat

Norway has been very smart, small population, massive oil reserves
Which they are expanding

Don’t seem to have the whole world trying to shut them down like we have here in canada, the climate-insane trying to have us all freeze in the dark

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
February 5, 2021 6:20 pm

Energy poverty begins (officially) once energy costs more than 10% of your disposable income. When it reaches 20% it becomes an urgent matter often deserving of an intervention. In Ontario this takes shape as rebates, claims, deductions and grants. In eastern Europe it may be seen as tax free coal or subsidised coal of a fixed quantity or price. In countries or communities that reach 25-28% of income, people switch fuels no matter what the other costs to the community and environment. Above 30% people will burn tires in their heating and garbage and plastic collected along the road in their heating stoves.

Eurasia has some 620 million people dependent on solid fuels for heating and cooking (my own figure). Nearly all of them live in energy poverty. Worse that raising prices for particular fuels is the banning of coal altogether (in the name of climate or pollution). This is a direct attack on the poor, while lip-servicing the attack on electric power stations, one of the only alternatives to coal use in the home.

In many countries the electricity price is subsidized for a certain number of KWH per month. In South Africa, 70 per month, in Kyrgyzstan 700. Without that, people would exist in even more extreme deprivation.

Energy poverty is an obvious contributor to chronic underheating, defined by the WHO as less than 18 C in the living environment. About 11% of all deaths in China are attributable to chronic underheating. That is why a) China is ramping up their coal fired power station capacity, b) why they subsidise semi-coked coal to many rural homes and c) why they pretend to agree with popular measures such as the Paris Agreement – to keep the nanny-nations off their back.

Literally everyone in Eurasia knows that energy poverty is a major, if not THE major economic problem facing the poor. Staying alive means staying warm. The rich nations are ballyhooing about how “everyone should do their share” to cool the planet, making everything about staying alive worse. As Willis says, this greatly harms the poor.

These are crimes against humanity. If anything would help the impoverished billions it is a warmer, wetter world. A cooler, drier one will make their struggle even more difficult. Lowering CO2 to 300 ppm will reduce crop production about 30%, for the same inputs and physical labour. To do that deliberately is insane.

We have these crazy policies about fuels and energy because the poor have no effective voice in running the affairs of nations. Rational debate and formulating reasonable, inclusive plans has to precede any sustainable pro-human action.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
February 5, 2021 7:02 pm

I agree that what John Kerry has been doing and plans to do are Crimes Against Humanity. But that also applies to much of the UN elites.

As far as trying to figure out how much of your disposable income is relative to energy is difficult, since almost everything we have is because of fossil fuels in some way. The food in the grocery stores, the plastic in iPhone and computers, the electricity to charge the batteries. to make the batteries. All of the costs of those items is a cost of the energy used to make them to a large degree.

Last edited 2 years ago by Joel O’Bryan
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
February 6, 2021 9:17 am

This is not difficult to separate. We understand that. Everything has embedded energy. The fraction that goes for energy is the purchase of “energy carriers”, and excludes the embedded energy on something that is not such a carrier.

Carriers include liquid petroleum fuels, solid fuels including wood and coal for for domestic combustion, electricity, heat from central (CHP) heating systems (rare in Canada and the US), gases such as butane, propane, natural gas, biogas and geothermal heat sourced directly without conversion (such as is heating homes in Iceland).

If you are spending more than 20% of your disposable income on these energy carriers, you are coping with energy poverty.

Reply to  Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
February 7, 2021 10:50 am

It’s easy enough to calculate direct energy costs, though. What would you call 19% of your total gross income going to direct costs, like your gas and electric bill?

Pretty sure adding in the other costs would put it way over 20%.

Bob Meyer
February 5, 2021 6:24 pm

Thank you Willis. I can usually count on you for a sanity break in crazy world.

February 5, 2021 6:26 pm

Look, I don’t think CO2 is the secret knob that controls the climate….As a result, I think that the “War On CO2” is a destructive, costly, and meaningless endeavor.”

I get that you don’t believe there is a problem, but hopefully you can see that those of us who do think it (CO2) is the control knob, and watch it rise along with global temperatures and sea level and observe the (global mass balance) ice loss, are genuinely concerned.

“So … if those are your motives I ask you, I beg you, I implore you, don’t wage your war on CO2 by screwing today’s poor to the floor! “

But if you do believe there is an issue, then you also know it is the poor who will suffer first. A changing climate poses serious risk to food production. It does not take a brain the size of a planet to realise if you reduce the land available to grow food (rising sea level) you almost certainly reduce the crops it can produce. Add to this that a climate where rainfall patterns and temperatures change quickly, also makes it difficult to effectively grow crops in a specific area.

An example ….. Countries with low lying land like Bangladesh that have large populations are facing serious risk if the sea rises even a metre. Where are their 170 million people going to go? The obvious direction is India. But they have huge populations too. The end result can only be bloodshed and likely conflict (war) when you have people starving and fighting for their lives. It is no coincidence that the Pentagon consider climate change a serious issue for global stability.

My point is if you do believe CO2 controls our climate, then you are justified in being worried….. if you don’t, well then complain about rising gas prices.

Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 6:58 pm

What you think is irrelevant; do you have any evidence, and by that I mean no climate models or doctored temperature records and cherrypicked data.

Reply to  Lrp
February 5, 2021 7:40 pm


Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 10:11 pm

NOPE… you have zero evidence.. ALWAYS

And even less scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2

Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 8:03 am

Good. Let’s see it.

John Endicott
Reply to  Simon
February 9, 2021 4:32 am

And yet, you never show it. Which tells everyone that the truth is “nope” rather than “yep”

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 7:18 pm

There have been several links in the last week showing how the temperature record has been adjusted in line with CO2 rise, and that without those adjustments and UHI rise we’d actually see decreasing temps.

You have literally nothing except faith

Reply to  Pat from kerbob
February 5, 2021 7:41 pm

If you say so.

Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 10:12 pm

You keep proving that is the case.. nothing but brain-hosed “belief”

You remain an empty sock.

Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 8:06 am

You’re beginning to sound a bit disheartened and unsure of yourself, Simon. Perhaps it is dawning on you that you backed the wrong horse. Don’t worry – there’s no shame in admitting it.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 2:42 pm

Quite the slap down

Nyah Nyah
I think I reached your level

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 9:46 pm

Oh no, the Bangladeshi’s Are Gonna Drown argument again. Which couples with You Skeptics Are Racists charge, since the Terrible Fate awaiting Bangladesh is of no concern to you Deniers, you heartless b*st*ards!

But the truth is that Bangladesh is a delta. Three major rivers rush off the Himalayas carrying silt, and that silt is deposited where the rivers meet the sea (Bay of Bengal). That’s how deltas are formed, and why deltas are always at sea level.

The piously recriminating Alarmists would have you believe that the Bangladesh delta was a plateau 20,000 years ago, towering 500 feet above the ocean, with waves crashing at the base of the cliff. Then the continental ice sheets melted, raising sea levels to the plateau level exactly just last week. And if the sea rises another foot, goodbye Bangladesh.

It’s utter poppycock which is totally ignorant about how deltas form. News Flash: Bangladesh has always been at sea level, no matter what that level has been.

It’s not the ignorance that grates, it’s the accusatory rhetoric from supercilious snots who think they’re better than you, and more caring about little brown people than you, you racist pigs.

But as Mr. Eschenbach has admirably explained, it’s the Alarmists who are cruel and uncaring for the poorest among us, who would saddle the poor with jacked up taxes, fees, and costs for their basic needs, and abscond with the proceeds to buy more jets, yachts, and mansions for billionaires while the poor starve and freeze to death.

J’accuse, Alarmists. You are the deplorable dregs of the Earth..

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 4:11 pm

Interesting angle you have, that Bangldesh is in fact lucky to be getting so much new free land. Sadly the reality is a whole lot more desperate for them. Have a little read then get back to me…

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 7, 2021 10:34 am

If you think that is insulting, then you are easily bruised, especially on a web site that deals up snark 10 times more loaded for breakfast.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 7, 2021 2:52 pm

You certainly do, but given you wrote this piece I thought you might want to at least explore the more difficult issues raised around poverty and the pros and cons of a changing climate v cheap gas?

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 7, 2021 3:55 pm

thank you for your reply. Perhaps I assumed wrong, but I thought you were trying to counter my comment (stating countries like Bangladesh that have a large number of poor are in serious trouble if the seas keep rising), by saying that they are actually gaining land and so implying they are not at risk (as I was pointing out)?

My comment (which was meant to show the irony here)…
Interesting angle you have, that Bangldesh is in fact lucky to be getting so much new free land.”

…. was intended to highlight that if the science (OK my side) is right and they are in fact at serious risk and do eventually suffer terrible hardship (which I hope you can see is at least a possibility) then all the cheap power in the world wont help them. And they will in fact look back and resent enormously being told by the West (mostly) that they were going to be fine.

This is of course assuming they do suffer and is the other side (my side) of this tale. One I think needs telling. And given we are constantly being told by skeptics that my side wont debate the issues, then I would hope it give some understand as to why I come here, to question and at times push a little.

Finally I get abused and belittled by so many here (been called “simple” more times than I’ve had hot dinners), I forget who those are, who want to debate honestly. In the light of this I apologise if I have caused offence.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 7, 2021 10:30 pm

Simon, you still don’t get it. I made a simple statement of fact, that river deltas rise as the ocean rises. This is totally uncontroversial.”
I get you one thing and that is you have no intension of debating any of the issues I have raised. I agree let’s move on.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 8, 2021 1:24 pm

Actually when you think about it I didn’t “twist” your words, at worst I misinterpreted them. When I apologised and asked you to point out where I went wrong so we could move on and actually have a civil conversation, all you could do was circle back to me misquoting you. Oh well there you go.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 9, 2021 11:48 am

And your “apology” was a joke”
Frankly I was genuine with my apology, far more so than you in looking for a discussion around this issue. What was that you said about wrestling with pigs?

Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
February 6, 2021 4:01 pm

Mike Dubrasich

Thank you for your reply. I am sure the poor will be heartened to know the right side of politics is selflessly acting in their interests.

As an aside I did wonder whether you are in fact Christopher Monckton, the way you cram as many syllables as you can in to a sentence in an attempt to impress.

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 6:06 pm

No, Simone, I use my real name, unlike trolls from the Dark Side. I don’t blame you, however, from hiding your identity. Your clumsy attempts at rhetorical debate betray your ignorance and mark you as a fool. No wonder you hide in the shadows.

More to the point, the poor are not well served by skyrocketing levies on their bare necessities. Your efforts to penalize people for daring to breathe benefits only the uber rich. In fact, forcing the poor to labor for subsistence wages is the very definition of slavery. The Left has always endorsed and defended slavery. It’s their Prime Directive. I’m not yours or anybody else’s slave. Too bad, I guess it sucks to be you.

Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
February 7, 2021 10:37 am

And my point is the poor are not well served by people who tell them things will be fine, all the time profiting from the very thing that may cost them them livelihoods and possibly their lives.

Bevan Dockery
Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 9:52 pm

The atmospheric CO2 concentration does not effect the Earth’s climate, it is the climate that determines the CO2 concentration.

Applying a First Order Autoregression model to the time series for temperature and CO2 concentration shows that there is no significant correlation between the two. However there is a significant correlation between temperature and the rate of change of CO2 concentration. That means that the temperature is a significant determinant of the rate of generation of CO2.

The effect can also be clearly seen in the seasonal variation of the two time series. In Spring time as the temperature rises, photosynthesis kicks in and the CO2 concentration falls. Then in Autumn as the temperature falls, the CO2 concentration rises. The complete reverse to the UN IPCC hoax.

There is also a clear and obvious correlation between the annual rate of change of CO2 as recorded at the Mauna Loa Observatory and the Oceanic Niño 3.4 Index showing that in the Equatorial zone, the major world climate event, El Niño, determines the CO2 concentration.

There are in excess of 250 CO2 recording stations across the globe with the data freely available on the Internet. Get the data, do the maths.

Reply to  Bevan Dockery
February 6, 2021 8:10 am

Don’t forget the observation from ice-core data that changes in temperature always precede changes in atmospheric CO2 with a lag of 800-1000 years. This alone falsifies the whole basis of the CAGW Scare.

Reply to  Simon
February 5, 2021 10:10 pm

What a load of fantasy BS.

Sea level rise at a close stable gauge shows 0.8mm/year

comment image

Are you SCARED yet , simpleton?

Have you actually got any facts at all to back up any of your mindless jabbering ?

Bangladesh is built on a delta.. Deltas rise with sea level rise,

Try not to continue displaying your abject ignorance, simple simon. !

Reply to  fred250
February 6, 2021 7:50 am

Interesting choice, Mumbai. Project from 1980 – the best physical choice since it’s starting point is nearly at the end of the aerosol era – and you end up with an acceleration rate of ~0.33 mm*yr^-2, a 2/1/2021 rise rate of ~10.92 mm*yr^-1, and a projected 2100 sea level rise from now, of ~1.89m. Fairly statistically durable since both the standard error of the rise rate and it’s acceleration is ~27% of their expected values.

I could do this all day. Got any more?

Reply to  bigoilbob
February 6, 2021 10:32 am

If you extrapolate from 2005 to 2012 the rise is much steeper still, but equally as meaningless as your example, Big Oily Blob.

Reply to  Graemethecat
February 6, 2021 10:50 am

If you extrapolate from 2005 to 2012 the rise is much steeper still…”

Why would I do that when I have a statistically/physically significant 40 year period to evaluate? Brought to me as an example by the biggest cloud yeller in the forum?

Never change, either of you…..

Reply to  bigoilbob
February 6, 2021 11:35 am

Most of the data in your time period are missing, Big Oily Blob.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 12:18 am

Sorry Willis, but you can’t appeal to the reason or compassion of zealots. For them people are just cannon fodder.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 1:31 am

Very disrespectful towards Simon. You can’t just denigrate a man’s religion like that!

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
February 6, 2021 2:01 am

Developed countries with solid energy supplies also cope better with WEATHER related disasters.

We owe it to under-developed countries to help provide them with those solid RELIABLE energy supplies.

Wind and solar cannot ever do that..

Only fossil fuels (and nuclear) have the wide-ranging applicability and reliability to help the third world develop to a stage where WEATHER disasters can be more easily responded to.

Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 1:03 am

You missed the article yesterday/ In the comments section some dude actually shows us how the CO2 numbers are “corrected” to “normalise” with the CAGW thesis.

Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 2:04 am

” It does not take a brain the size of a planet to realise if you reduce the land available to grow food (rising sea level) you almost certainly reduce the crops it can produce


It does however, take a brain the size of a pea, to think sea level rise of even 3mm/year on the coastal fringes, has any affect whatsoever on available arable land.

Last edited 2 years ago by Willis Eschenbach
Reply to  Simon
February 6, 2021 2:09 am

“A changing climate poses serious risk to food production”


Utter and complete RUBBISH

Crop yield around the world continue to grow apace.

Another 2-3 degrees of warming would open up VAST areas of land that are currently too cold to grow substantive crops.

Your little boogie-man chicken-little fantasies are not related to REALITY of any type..

….but to a warped, degenerate, non-functional mind of sickly, putrid green ooze.

Last edited 2 years ago by fred250
Tom Abbott
February 5, 2021 6:28 pm

From the article: “so if gas prices double your kids will do without something important.”

That’s right. The poor suffer the most when energy prices go higher.

And it’s not just the cost of the energy alone that hurts poor people. When the cost of energy goes up, then the cost of transportation throughout the whole economy goes up, and that means that everything you buy goes up in price.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 7, 2021 12:21 pm

Makes them more dependent on government. Not a bug, a feature.

Tom Abbott
February 5, 2021 6:45 pm

Well, I read through all the comments and I didn’t see Griff making excuses for Germany’s poor performance, anywhere in the thread. Maybe it’s his day off.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 5, 2021 7:15 pm

High prices are a sign of virtue, so Griff is happy
Germany has always been very progressive, they always seem to be ahead of the curve in crushing the undesireables

Reply to  Pat from kerbob
February 6, 2021 9:33 am

griff & loydo prb’ly have mummy taking care of paying for and/or driving them around, so why should they be concerned? Let the hoi polloi eat cake….

Last edited 2 years ago by beng135
February 5, 2021 7:15 pm

US is in a unique position globally. It is the banker of the world. All US citizens enjoy the benefit that bestows.

US is the only country that can live well beyond its means and never be brought to account; at least until the country loses its status as global banker.

The Biden/Harris years may bring other countries to make a claim on the wealth they hold in the form of USDs as the indebtedness grows. US owes the rest of the world almost USD14tr. That would be significant if it was denominated in currency other than the USD. It may become significant when oil producers decide not to accept USD. Trump was reducing US reliance on other countries. All that is in reverse now.

February 5, 2021 7:29 pm

It said, 30% of people have no sense of humor, which I don’t know is true, but assuming
it is, than that means a lot people don’t get satire.
And this topic reminds me of “A modest Proposal” ie, wiki:

And as my guess, it seems lefties, also known as useful idiots, have higher percentage of
their “followers” that lack a sense of humor and so, also can’t get satire.

Also it seems they also take “1984” or “Brave New World” as a guide or “moral tenets” to be followed. And they seem to want Utopia, which is Greek for “nowhere”
And they seem to imagine they are “modern” whereas,
they are obviously, quite primitive.

Joel O'Bryan
February 5, 2021 7:42 pm

This next week, across most of the US, is why”shafting the poor” with high energy prices is tantamount to m u r d e r.

Screen Shot 2021-02-05 at 8.40.32 PM.png
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
February 6, 2021 4:48 am

Yes, it’s going to get real cold next week.

I’m curious to see how the windmills and solar panels will have fared in this weather. I bet they are not doing too good.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Tom Abbott
February 6, 2021 2:46 pm

Winter high pressure is how you get those deep cold spells
Zero wind

Alberta wind assets averaging 8% per day during cold snaps

I calculate little Alberta with 4.4 million people needs ~75,000 3mw wind turbines to keep our 10GW grid active


Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
February 6, 2021 2:44 pm

Love a good polar vortex

Although with the blue color Griff probably figures it is all going to be under water

February 5, 2021 9:17 pm

The reason Europe’s petrol prices have always been so high, is because Europe has never had oil wells to produce their fuel cheaply. So, they’ve always had very high taxes to limit consumption – at least since the oil crisis of the 70’s. In the past, it was never about limiting CO2 emissions.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Hivemind
February 6, 2021 4:50 am

Europe has a much higher tax on fuel than does the United States and that has been the case for decades.

Reply to  Hivemind
February 7, 2021 10:07 am

Not correct. Many European countries do have oil production of their own e.g. Norway and UK. But that’s not a point, the high petrol prices are result of high taxes and in most of the countries it is just a way to collect money to the government. This money is being used to finance all kinds of “free” things such as free health care.

Anders Valland
Reply to  Hivemind
February 9, 2021 12:18 am

Incorrect. Tax is not to limit consumption, it is just another collection of public money. Norway is a net exporter of oil and especially gas.

Geoff Sherrington
February 5, 2021 10:22 pm

It can help to think of America and its energy needs from Frontier times. Those wagon trains heading west captured energy from the growth of plants, heat from burning wood and so on. It was there to be taken, since the Frontier people had not evolved fancy social laws.
Next, small shows of oil we found, then rather quickly on the time scale of people, there was enough oil to meet the needs not only of the local users, but a surrounding community. Oil shifted to being a market commodity. Those who could produce it at low cost could make a good profit as users bid amongst suppliers in a Free Market. That is when the good times ended.
That is when governments decided that they needed some of the oil money. Governments had scarcely any part in discovering new oil, but they inserted themselves as bodies able to regulate the oil, by manipulating volume and sale prices. They did this by coercion, with threats of taking away government services from those who declined to enter this game of destruction of true Free Enterprise.
Oil prices and availability became a large part of government revenues. Individuals could no longer easily explore for themselves and fill their needs from their own discovery. It has all become too bogged down with complications like access to land, deals with land owners, agreements with shipping and storage companies and so on. Easiest just to front up to the petrol pump and pay the price including taxes.
The price of oil therefore and evermore included a slab that was the government’s take. The government, being less creative in thinking than the explorers who did the valuable work, took large or small slabs depending on how well they had managed their debt. The whole process of determination of the government “take” became separated from the actual economics of oil supply and demand, growing or shrinking reserves in this place or that and so on.
Economists and accountants devised many wondrous new ways to name and justify this government take, which is now practically unrelated to reality. It is now a tool for political manipulation. Not just the price, but also the demands, like “You shall not frack” or “You shall not enter Federal lands.” What was once a way to improve on burning firewood at the frontier became a political instrument, able to be used to wage war on particular groups in society like political opponents.
And on those pushing for energy supply without future oil. That step is sheer madness. It has the capacity to destroy national wealth and harmony and it will sadly now do just that.
So, what is the lesson? More of the poor have to go back to burning firewood, like the Frontier settlers did out of need. Some powerful forces are working to take us back to frontier poverty, to more greatly enrich themselves. This is not fair and it is stupid from many aspects.
The greater numbers of people about to become poor are going to reject this future planned by others. They are going to dilute the ability of various rogues to take them back to being poor and that will almost certainly involve bloodshed.
All of this could have been avoided if the hard, proper science had been adopted instead of the unproven speculations of impending doom that politicians globally seem to have been forced into accepting.
What a terrible penalty the word will pay for not getting its science right.

Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
February 6, 2021 1:41 am

Taxes are not theft per se, the nation as a whole has to build and maintain the infrastructure that enables the exploitation of resources, recources that, by definition, belong to the nation. The whispers of Bolsh sound sweet, but they distract you from the reality lived by people with dirt under their fingenails.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  paranoid goy
February 6, 2021 6:00 am

Taxes used to fund government charity, as apposed to government services, most definitely ARE theft.

The government is supposed to provide for the *general* welfare, not for individual welfare.

Besides the interstate highway system exactly what infrastructure do you think the federal government has built? It’s actually almost none, probably less than 1%. Sate, local, and private funds have built this nation’s infrastructure, from bridges, to farm-to-market roads, to sewer treatment plants, to railroads, to water treatment plants, to telephone systems, to power utility systems, to schools, and on and on and on!

Reply to  Tim Gorman
February 7, 2021 12:30 pm

Isn’t the actual phrase “promote” the general welfare? Big difference between promote and provide.

February 5, 2021 10:59 pm

There are plenty of cases in which a tax/price increase was introduced to lower consumption. How many of these increases did indeed lower consumption? None.
So why do we still pretend that these hikes lower consumption?

Last edited 2 years ago by Piteo
Scott W Bennett
February 6, 2021 1:06 am

Willis, you are a villainous monster; apparently:

The overt denialists are easy villains, the monsters who look like monsters. – Elizabeth Weil 

That quote is from a despicable piece of propaganda* that – even in its mere conception – celebrates a vicious despotism. The protagonist is “out of his mind” but the real derangement is in the sick minds of the ideologues who think their dangerously incendiary demonisations are even remotely justifiable!


Reply to  Scott W Bennett
February 6, 2021 2:14 am

What a poor PATHETIC LITTLE MAN that guy is.

Best course of action would be for the wife to pack up the kids and move out.

Living with someone with a DEEP MENTAL ILLNESS is not good for children.

Tantamount to CHILD ABUSE….

Joseph Zorzin
February 6, 2021 3:36 am

Here in Massachusetts- many people claim CO2 is the climate control knob. Then I ask them if they have cut back on THEIR use of fossil fuels- and they vanish. And I ask them if they want a huge, ugly solar or wind “farm” next to THEIR home, and they continue to stay out of site with no reply.

Jeremy Poynton
February 6, 2021 3:42 am

No UK prices? We’re still in Europe regardless of leaving the EU.

February 6, 2021 3:52 am

There appears to be absolutely nothing we can do about. In whoopie’s words we just have to “suck it up”

February 6, 2021 4:10 am

I wonder how much the lack of heat in northern Europe has contributed to COVID deaths, by physically stressing people and compromising their immune systems.

February 6, 2021 4:59 am

What is this? Has Europe/UK gone back to the Middle Ages and only those living in castles can have heat and cook their food? What in the blue-eyed blinking world is wrong with the people running those countries?