Building Trades Unions Warn Members Not to Believe Joe Biden’s “Green Jobs” Climate Promise

GROUP OF MINERS WAITING TO GO TO WORK ON THE 4 P.M. TO MIDNIGHT SHIFT AT THE VIRGINIA-POCAHONTAS COAL COMPANY MINE. By Corn, Jack, 1929-, Photographer (NARA record: 8464440) (U.S. National Archives and Records Administration) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

Joe Biden’s promise to provide a seamless transition from fossil fuel jobs to renewable energy jobs is falling flat with the nation’s energy workers.

About Joe’s Energy Jobs

By The Editorial Board
Aug. 24, 2020 7:11 pm ET

Building trades workers prefer their oil and gas gigs to a green promise.

The Democratic nominee understands this risks alienating blue-collar energy workers in states like Pennsylvania and Ohio. So Mr. Biden is pitching his plan as an opportunity to create “10 million good-paying, middle-class, union jobs.” He’d have taxpayers spend $1.7 trillion in part to “train all of America’s workforce to tap into the growing clean-energy economy,” including energy workers who will install “millions of new solar panels and tens of thousands of wind turbines.” Oil riggers, you will be pleased to know, will seamlessly transition to solar technicians.

North America’s Building Trades Unions, a labor federation of 14 unions and three million members, begs to differ. In July the NABTU—whose affiliates include the Teamsters and International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers—released two surveys of workers and statistics that analyze jobs across the energy economy. They found that “both union and non-union” tradespeople report that oil and gas jobs “have better wages, benefits and opportunities than renewables projects.”

One survey conducted interviews, focus groups and an online survey with some 1,700 union and non-union workers in energy jobs. Workers reported that oil and gas jobs were longer-term, resulting in steadier incomes and more consistent benefits. “With solar, you work your way out of a job. . . . Three months duration [then] you’re done,” explained one electrician. Workers also liked that there was “better project variety, skill development and project consistency.” The report emphasized that “skilled trade jobs are not highly interchangeable between industries.”

Read more:

One of my favourite scenes out of the miniseries “Chernobyl“, is Soviet minister Boris Shcherbina‘s advice to scientist Valery Legasov. Valery wanted to know what to say to coal miners to convince them to perform the suicidally dangerous task of digging a tunnel under the molten core of the reactor, so they could install refrigeration equipment to stop the core burning through the final concrete barrier, and contaminating the groundwater.

Boris said “My advice, tell the truth. These men work in the dark, they see everything”.

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August 26, 2020 10:16 am

I wouldn’t believe anything Senile Joe says, or Kamala Harris. They are both extreme liars and deceivers. Senile Joe was part responsible for the Clinton era laws locking up young Black men, and Kamala Harris was busy as AG prosecuting them for a 1/4 ounce of pot and sentencing them to years in jail. And she is part Black. And now they want the black vote. Some Black people must be incredibly naive as to believe them now. Never have ethic minorities had it so good as recently when unemployment was very low before the China virus was unleashed on the world.

Regarding the GND, the Republicans better get out and front of this issue and demonstrate what will happen to their electrical grids if they don’t want rolling blackouts such as as we see in California, which is part of that whole green scam going on there with excess grid scale wind and solar. Any Caucasian person stoopid enough to vote for any Democrat will equally suffer when these minorities turn on white people to settle their perceived injustice that they say we caused them, although all that happened in a different era, run by Democrats. Senile Joe will be the first to go, when Kamala and the Squad use the 25th Amendment to remove Joe, and then it is President Kamala Harris.

Krudd Gillard of the Commondebt of Australia
Reply to  Earthling2
August 26, 2020 4:59 pm

Is Ms Harris a descendent of the African-American slaves? I thought she was the child of parents who were more recent immigrants who came on their own volition.

Reply to  Krudd Gillard of the Commondebt of Australia
August 26, 2020 5:50 pm

Supposedly, her fathers ancestors were apparently slave owners in Jamaica. But I would want to verify that before stating that definitively. Things were done differently in Jamaica many years ago, just as the original slave traders were the Africans from Africa themselves. Just wait until the Blacks In USA figure this part out if that is true. Her mother was from India, so she is really bi-racial. Which is fine…I have no problem with anyones ethnicity, (I’m a Euro Mongrel myself) although I have a problem with some of the conduct of these ethnicities and constantly blaming the Euro races for their woes. It is time to move on and look ahead, not regurgitate the past and lay guilt on white privilege forever. That is a cop out for their own failures to be able to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps. They have opportunity now to advance themselves and fit into mainstream society, which is the great promise of America now. There are tens of thousands if not millions of successful multi racial ethnicities doing very fine, better than a lot of whites.

We don’t see the Irish bellyaching much anymore what the Brits did to them. Everyone done something to somebody, somewhere in the long lost past. Native American Indians were big time into slavery amongst themselves for a very long time before we showed up.

Reply to  Earthling2
August 27, 2020 12:10 am

Original slave traders?

There have been slaves for as long as there has been humanity.

I doubt there would be anyone alive who does not have an ancestor who was a slave.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  Dean
August 27, 2020 8:44 pm

Exactly correct.
Slavery is older than language.

F.LEGHORN in Alabama
Reply to  Earthling2
August 27, 2020 4:24 am

,la isn’t responsible for her ancestors behavior any more than white people are.

Of course Black PEOPLE matter. But blm is America’s largest gang.

Reply to  F.LEGHORN in Alabama
August 27, 2020 7:24 am

Correct…on both counts.

Reply to  Earthling2
August 26, 2020 11:53 pm

California would have had problems coping with a new record level of demand in a heatwave/drought limiting hydro and out of state power even without a renewable grid and certainly with the present level of general incompetence in running that grid.

(and is political debate in your nation really well served by such extreme characterisation of the party you don’t support?)

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 1:24 am

Lying again Griff, California peak electricity demand was 2006 it has been falling ever since.

The only thing that has been increasing due to general incompetence is the cost.

Reply to  LdB
August 27, 2020 6:51 am

During the heatwave they beat the 2006 record.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:32 am

So what? They had lots of reserve in 2006, however they shut much of it down in the 14 years since because green idiots such as yourself proclaimed that wind/solar were mature enough to take over.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:38 am

NO it peaked at 47,641 megawatts well below the 2006 peak of 50,270

Even Wikipedia is showing 47GW as the 2020 peak
Here is the statement

“California’s peak electricity demand occurred on July 24, 2006, at 2:44 pm, with 50,270 megawatts. Since then measures to reduce peak load have resulted in decreased peak demand, even as the state’s population has continued to grow.[5] On September 1 2017, the peak load was 50,116 MW.[6] In 2020, peak load was 47 GW.[7]”

So are you going to retract the statement?

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 9:34 am

Not only will he not retract the comment, he will keep repeating it.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:30 am

This is the latest lie from griff’s talking points memo.

The only reason why they are having trouble is because they got rid of nuclear/coal/nat gas and replaced it with wind/solar.

The incompetence involves replacing reliable power with unreliable power.

Joel Snider
Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 11:31 am

Calling a fascist a fascist IS productive – certainly for sounding the warning bell – especially when that political party has spent most of their existence on exactly that line about any opposition.

It’s not an extreme characterization – it’s an accurate one – and enabled by hiding behind phony outrage that someone might actually call them what they are.

Of course, your patent dishonestly glosses over that pesky little fact.

Because, Grift, you are an immoral self-serving liar. All day, every day.

Joel Snider
Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 11:36 am

And by the way, Grift – there is no ‘political debate’ on the progressive left – they’re burning down cities, and saying vote for us or else it’ll get worse.

Yeah – fascism has metastasized – it’s called progressivism.

And anyone that pretends they can’t see it after almost non-stop hate-speech, it’s probably because they share it.

Of course, then they squeal like the spoiled pigs they are when they get ANY opposition – not even equal and opposite, because we’ve got a LONG way to go before progressives get back even a fraction of the hate they sow – mostly because all the real haters are on THEIR team.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 8:46 pm

“…even without a renewable grid…”

This even Griff implicitly admits that this part of the grid id nothing but a problem.

Reply to  Earthling2
August 28, 2020 7:19 pm

Ah, I see you’ve read the book, and are not interested in watching the movie…

August 26, 2020 10:33 am

Doing some work for a local fire dept employee, I was giving him some shit about the perennial union support for democrats at all levels.

He said that, based on the recent State level dem lies, their support may change. He, and the guys he talks to at work are tired of the dem lies. The workers are coming around. (But I doubt that the union is quite there yet)

August 26, 2020 10:36 am

Anyone who talks vaguely about ‘green jobs’ should be asked precisely what these jobs are, how many positions will there be in each type of green job and how long these jobs can be expected to last. They might also tell us why green jobs in places such as Spain cost jobs in the Spanish economy.

Reply to  Charlie
August 26, 2020 11:27 am

Yep. Here’s a link

As I have written before, every green job in Spain created through government subsidies resulted in the loss of 2.5 jobs in the regular economic sectors.

We now have a lot of experience against which to gauge the greenies’ starry eyed promises. Those promises haven’t materialized anywhere.

Here’s a link I have cited several times lately. It’s about the ERoEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) cliff. Basically, below an ERoEI of about 5, society collapses. We spend so much time and energy gathering energy that there isn’t enough to spare for society’s other needs. It isn’t a mystery and I don’t think it should even be controversial. It must be over the target though because there’s heavy flack coming from the greenies as they try to debunk it.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  commieBob
August 27, 2020 4:27 am

Thanks for the ERoEI link, commieBob. The best quote from it, IMHO, is: “At this point I will cast out a bold idea that money was invented as a proxy for energy because ERoEI was too complex to fathom.”

If one substitutes “effort expended” for “energy”, and “value” for “ERoEI”, then that is the very definition of “money.” It is the stored value of human effort expended, and is a quite objective measure of said value – unless someone fraudulently injects money into the economic equation to distort the relationship between effort and value, a process known as “subsidy.”

Reply to  Charlie
August 26, 2020 1:03 pm

A green job involves washing solar panels. It is like painting the Forth Bridge. By the time you get to the end, it is time to start again. Mind you it is highly skilled and pays peanuts.

Reply to  Charlie
August 26, 2020 1:12 pm

Picking up trash in the median or edge of roads is a green job.

Rick C PE
Reply to  Charlie
August 26, 2020 1:20 pm

Solar Panel Wipers
Bat and Bird Carcass Removers
Rechargeable Battery Pack Disassemblers
Rickshaw Drivers
… ?

Reply to  Rick C PE
August 26, 2020 5:26 pm

stand up and hold your hands above your head like a big O
take three steps forward
take there steps back
repeat …

(joke from jr high … jolly green giant)

The only green job that isn’t a net loss with respect to efficiency and the economy.

Reply to  Rick C PE
August 27, 2020 3:26 pm

Flashlight holder to keep solar panels working at night.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  Rick C PE
August 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Lets not forget the tippy-top of the green energy pyramid scheme: The inept, corrupt, and incorrigibly dishonest politicians and scientists, and their Fake News media lickspittles, lackeys, accomplices, and fellow travelers.

Reply to  Charlie
August 26, 2020 11:54 pm

but green jobs in Spain don’t cost jobs in the economy.

That ‘research’ was utterly demolished a long time ago – and look at my post below about Iberdola

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 4:27 am

Yes do go look at Griff make a fool of himself with “how to fail at google 101”.

He must just see a comment and go hit google to find some counter argument but he never bothers to read his own link

Bill Toland
Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 6:03 am

Griff, here is a study showing that 3.7 jobs are destroyed for every green job created in the UK.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:35 am

In griff’s world, some nutcase screaming “You’re wrong”, constitutes refutation.

Griff probably believes that taking money from people who work and giving it to people like him also creates jobs.

Paul Johnson
Reply to  Charlie
August 27, 2020 8:49 am

Foggy Joe and Giggles Harris won’t detail these new “green jobs” because they aren’t highly skilled or high-paying. A massive number of jobs in residential “solar installation” are forecast, but these little more than roofing gigs. How many eco-warrior snowflakes, armed with free college degrees in Diversity Studies, will be anxious to take those jobs?

August 26, 2020 10:36 am

I don’t know about these unions, but in general it seems that unions tend to support Democrats.

NY Police Union has endorsed Trump over Biden. This isn’t exactly an endorsement, but it sure looks like a caution about voting for Biden.

Might he end up losing the union vote?

Pop Piasa
Reply to  TonyG
August 26, 2020 11:43 am

I know several union drones who are completely blinkered by Trump Derangement and anti-republican prejudices. They dwell on details about “the orange baboon” and his past, ignoring the blatantly chequered pasts of their socialist-indoctrinated “champions of justice”. They truly believe that the progressive-cancered democrat party still has their centrist, gun-owning, middle-class homeowner best interests at the top of its agenda.
Fortunately, most of my union or retired union friends have become wise, now positioned slightly to the right of the fence with me and eager to see the progressives form their own party before the DNC implodes from mass stupidity and megalomania. #Walk Away

Reply to  Pop Piasa
August 26, 2020 12:15 pm

Speaking of clueless union drones, players for the Raptors and Celtics are talking about boycotting the first game of their NBA playoff series in order to put pressure on politicians to do more to promote racial justice.

If I hadn’t given up on basketball several years ago, I would take great pleasure in boycotting the entire playoff season this year.

PS: The only people who are hurt when these millionaires go out on strike, are the little guys who work at the stadiums. The ushers, the janitors, the people who work at the concession stands.

Reply to  MarkW
August 26, 2020 1:20 pm

The percentage of Asian players and height challenged players is very low. They had better get those quotas filled.

James Francisco
Reply to  Scissor
August 26, 2020 4:57 pm

Don’t forget the Latino basketball players too.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Scissor
August 26, 2020 8:10 pm

“The percentage of Asian players”

Not enough Russians? Israelis? Arabs? East Indians?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  MarkW
August 26, 2020 2:58 pm

They say they are boycotting over the black man shot in Wisconsin. The black man was resisting arrest. So they are boycotting even though the black man brought the shooting onto himself by his stupid actions.

Here’s some advice for people of all races: If you resist police commands and fail to comply you are putting yourself in great danger. The police don’t know who you are. All they know is you are being violent with the police and the police have to assume you are trying to do harm by your actions, like reaching into your car (for what?) after having scruffled with the police. So do what the police tell you to do. You will live a lot longer that way.

As for the boycott of the game by fans, people should tune in and wait until these fools take a knee during the National Anthem and then everyone should change the channel. The “powers that be” will be able to measure how many people tuned out and when. They can put two and two together.

I plan to deliberately tune out of every sporting event that trashes the United States by foolish players kneeling during the National Anthem. Colin Kapaernik, America-hating clones.

It looks like I’ll be catching up with a lot of old movies I haven’t seen rather than watching Leftwing sports anymore.

How can you get excited over watching fools who are either America-haters or are so clueless they think trashing the United States is a good idea? I’m looking for heroes. Clowns and sheeple like this are not heroes, they are robots following alog with what they think the crowd wants them to do. They are personal cowards who conform so they don’t upset even one person. A rather pathetic bunch of characters, and I have no interest in following their delusional antics. I want to watch someone I can respect. And I certainly have no respect for anyone who spits on the American Flag by kneeling during the National Anthem.

Baker Mayfield says he is kneeling. One of my favorite players. I won’t be watching you play any more, Baker. You’ll be a distant memory.

Roger Goddell just killed football with his foolish virtue signalling by apologizing to the America-hater, Kapaernk, and making it official policy of the NFL for all the players to offically be Amerca-haters, too.

One clown said, “It’s not about the flag”. Hey, clown, yes it is about the flag, and about the country. We only have one flag. You can find numerous ways to protest something without getting the Flag and the Country involved, but you choose not to. Instead, you want to bash every person in the United States as being a racist, with the exception of yourselves, of course. How stupid are you guys?

We’ll see. The clowns are going to get their chance to kneel pretty soon.

The Dallas soccer team that got booed when they kneeled a few weeks ago, has now decided they are not going to kneel during the Natonal Anthem anymore, they are going to do a different kind of protest. The NFL commissioner should be paying attention. Separate the protest from the Flag, or pay the price.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 26, 2020 6:24 pm

It is now being reported that after he was shot, a knife was found on the floor board of the car. It is not clear if he was holding the knife when shot, or if he had opened the car door in order to grab the knife.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 26, 2020 6:28 pm

This afternoon, my family took 4 dozen donuts along with a sign that the kids in our church group had drawn up to our local police department. Just to let them know, that as for me and my family, we support our cops.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
August 27, 2020 9:39 am

Moral of the story:
Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize.

John Endicott
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2020 2:53 am

racial justice in the NBA? Hmmm.

the NBA is 74.4 percent black players, 23.3 percent white players, 1.8 percent Latino players of any race, and 0.2 percent Asian players

whereas the US population is 13.4% black, 63.4% white, 15.3% Latino, 5.9% Asian.

Looks like the NBA needs to fire a lot of blacks and hire a lot of the other races in order to reach racial justice. just saying.

Reply to  John Endicott
August 27, 2020 7:42 am

A player for the Texans has come out with a list of demands

Divesting from police and investing in communities (this usually means that the money that used to be spent on police should now be given to organizations run by the protesters.)
Get rid of privatized prisons.
Reparations for slavery and mass incarceration. (If you are black and have spent time in jail, society owes you money.)
Stop police unions from undermining justice. (Police unions stick up for police, this can no longer be tolerated.)

Biden and Obama have announced that they support the boycotting players.
I wonder if there are many sports fans who still support Biden?

Anyway, I’m willing to bet that I can boycott all professional sports a lot longer than these guys can.

Reply to  John Endicott
August 27, 2020 7:42 am

That’s just your white privilege speaking.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  Pop Piasa
August 26, 2020 1:15 pm

Don’t forget the academic crowd either. In their fantasy, they’ll profit as the ones who started all this insane propaganda of indoctrination in the first place. They’ll be sure to vote their way to a promise of copious GND funding and job security.

August 26, 2020 10:45 am

That’s an easy call and even deep blue state voters should be able the see through it with limited fact checking.

The only labor intensive subsectors of solar are high-cost, small-scale rooftop projects with lots of lobbyists. The panel factories themselves are now mostly automated (even in China) and the utility scale project install work is increasingly targeting less labor in wiring and auto-loaders on new frame designs.

This amounts to low hanging fruit among all the outlandish campaign claims that can be attacked and debunked.

August 26, 2020 10:47 am
August 26, 2020 10:59 am

Killing coal, killing steel, Killing concrete, how will the green new deal build anything? Inquiring minds want to know.

Reply to  Stephana
August 26, 2020 11:23 am

One good side effect of the global pandemic is you don’t have Federal employees spending taxpayer money on regional and national conferences promoting rammed-earth home designs, engineered wood buildings, and small scale wind power projects. Such orchestrated entertainment goes basically nowhere at your expense.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  ResourceGuy
August 26, 2020 1:08 pm

What’s wrong with engineered wood buildings- if by that you mean cross laminated timber. It’s great stuff.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 26, 2020 2:36 pm

Engineered, wood, multi story parking structures and similar ….

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 27, 2020 5:51 am

What’s wrong? Well if it is used as a policy weapon against concrete, it’s a problem.

Reply to  ResourceGuy
August 27, 2020 11:38 am

I don’t really like the idea of building hi-rises to 20 floors out of Engineered/Laminated wood. But they are advocating that and some places are starting to do it, all in the name of CO2/Carbon. There is no need for it when we have the perfect solution called concrete and steel. And I am in the forestry industry. There is a place for Engineered wood products but building skyscrapers out of it is ill informed and should not be done. It isn’t even any cheaper, and the foundation obviously has to be concrete and rebar.

Ian W
Reply to  Stephana
August 26, 2020 11:31 am

That is the question to ask.
The Green New Deal cannot supply consistent baseload power so all the metal smelting moves out of states/countries that do not have consistent baseload power. Once the US is totally renewables it will like California have brownouts and black outs. The renewable power does not supply sufficient consistent baseload power to be able to build new renewables and the transmission lines, pylons and concrete bases. So after they reach the end of their installed lifetime, the USA will not be able to build more windmills or solar farms they will have to go to a state that has stable baseload power.
What state has been commissioning fossil fuel generation at the rate of one every ten days or so? That’s right China. The Green New Deal will result in the US having to buy its renewable power generation systems from China – or all the lights will go out.

John in Oz
Reply to  Ian W
August 26, 2020 4:29 pm

You could have added that there will not be sufficient jobs/materials for robotically-built electric vehicles for all, nor the power or infrastructure to charge them even if they could be manufactured.

Carl Friis-Hansen
Reply to  Stephana
August 26, 2020 12:06 pm

“Killing concrete”
reminds me: Back in the seventies I was doing some engineering job on the PId regulator, that regulated the amount of coal dust being injected into a rotating cement oven for Aalborg Portland. They had their own reserve generator, for the event that there would be a mains failure from the grid. I it would be the end of the long and expensive rotating oven, if it stopped rotating before it had cooled down. They used coal dust for the burner, it was the cheapest.
The Green lot would probably use super dried micro wood pellets for the flame and battery backup for grid blackout. They would probably need 6 trees an hour (I don’t remember how many MW the coal consumption compared to, but it is a very big flame).

Conclusion is that we need to produce a lot more CO2 and sunshine to make the trees grow fast enough to compensate for the fossil fuels.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Carl Friis-Hansen
August 26, 2020 1:06 pm

“Conclusion is that we need to produce a lot more CO2 and sunshine to make the trees grow fast enough to compensate for the fossil fuels.”

Actually, most wood pellets come from the trees that we foresters want to remove from the forests – the weed trees- the defective trees- the species we don’t prefer. It’s not timber trees which go into sawlogs for lumber and furniture.

Weeding the forest this way allows us to IMPROVE the forest , believe it or not. What we want to grow is favored species (mostly this means the species that were dominant on the site before the forest was exploited by humans); trees that are straight, will grow fast, and free of disease and pests. All so y’all can live in nice wood homes and enjoy nice wood furniture and tons of paper products.

Unfortunately, some people confuse modern wood based energy with “renewables” like solar and wind. Power plants burning wood are producing base load power and helping us foresters to improve the forests. I know there are some here that don’t understand this- and they believe the bullshit in that Michael Moore film about wood energy. When anyone wants to understand about wood based energy- talk to foresters, not “greenies” and not those who think it’s just another worthless “renewable”. Get the facts, not the propaganda.

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 26, 2020 1:58 pm

Mr. Zorzin is correct, although it is usually cheaper to pile and burn on site much of the thinned waste than it is to haul the debris to wood chip power plants.

Moreover, wood products are “green”. Forests grow back. Trees are renewable. Solar panels and wind turbines are not — they don’t grow back. It takes more fossil fuel energy to produce so-called “green” power than the panels and turbines produce in their short functional lifetimes. They are a net loss in energy.

Forests use sunlight, fix Co2, and if properly cared for, sustain that production for thousands of years. It takes continental ice sheets to shut them down.

4 Eyes
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
August 26, 2020 4:26 pm

You burn trees much faster than you grow them

Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
August 26, 2020 6:32 pm

That depends on the size of the forest and the size of the burner.

You can cut down trees a lot faster than you can grow one as well, despite being logged for hundreds of years, the forests in the US are still here.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Mike Dubrasich
August 27, 2020 4:57 am

It seems that once a series of replies gets 3-4 deep- I see no more reply buttons. So, this is a reply to “4 Eyes” who said, “You burn trees much faster than you grow them”.

Well, sure, but that’s not relevant. You live in a wood home with wood furniture and paper products. That meant trees got cut and it’ll take much longer to grow them than it took to cut them to produce those products, right? But— while some trees are cut- most acres are not cut that same year- so what counts is the total amount of wood out there. As of now, in the U.S., there is more wood every year than the previous year.

And when a tree is cut for your home or furniture or paper products, in reality, much if not most of the wood will NOT remain as wood for long. When the tree is cut- much (the tops and slash) is left in the woods to rot and decay resulting in carbon emissions over about a decade. A saw log needs to be cut into boards- much is wasted into sawdust which shortly will be rotting or burned. Much wood goes into low quality wood products that don’t last long. So, what do we do- produce homes, furniture and paper products from cement, metal and plastics which have a higher carbon footprint than wood? Of course not. So, what counts, assuming we really need to reduce carbon emissions- when it comes to forestry- is that the forests, overall, are not being reduced in their total carbon they hold- not whether or not it takes long to grow wood than to burn it.

And thanks to reading this site, I don’t even worry about whether the forests are holding more carbon over time- though I hope it’s true for the following reason- I want to grow high quality, high value trees because it’s good economics, such forests look great, nice forests are nice for recreational purposes, etc.

There is now a movement (very strong in Massachusetts) to end all forestry- not just wood burning- with the foolish thought that this will help save the climate. One proponent of this idea is Willy McKibben. I spend hours every day battling these fools.

JZ- a forester for 47 years

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 26, 2020 6:01 pm

Fossil fuels are used to drive the skidders, feller bunchers, bulldozers etc to get into the forest. In Ontario, pellets for a converted former coal fired electrical generator are imported from overseas. You can’t make quality, wood pellets from any old tree. In much of Canada and probably much of the USA, trees unsuitable for lumber of other high quality product are simply crushed and burned – in the forest. They are wasted. Foresters told us, still tell us, that those ‘other trees’ could be used for other purposes. Most of that is total BS. BTW, I worked for the Ontario governments main office forestry division as a senior biologist for years.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Bruce Ranta
August 27, 2020 12:17 pm

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Yes, for pellets, the trees need to be of a certain quality- but there are many biomass facilities that can burn ANY kind of wood- crushed on the job site into chips. Yes, fossil fuels are used for the machines. So what????? Machines are used for everything made in our world. As for that wood being used for other purposes- NOT TRUE. Some can be used for paper, but much of it cannot be used for any other purpose. Senior biologist? That means you know something about biology but NOTHING about forestry- or very little. I’ve been a forester for 47 years so I think I know more than you about forestry. And, why is a forestry hater active on this site? Without a market for much of this “junk wood”- it’s impossible to do excellent forestry because we must have a way of getting rid of such worthless wood that has NO other market. What has happened where the chip and pellet markets don’t exist- is that loggers leave this “junk wood” in the forest- severely degrading the forest- resulting in a drastic drop in the future health and economic value of the forest. THAT’S A FACT. The best thing to ever happen to forestry in the US Northeast is the pellet and chip markets for this “junk wood”. I’ve done a few videos showing silvicultural work (it mans forest culture for those who never took Latin) with a chip and pellet market- on my YouTube channel. I also have there a video showing the destruction of 20 acres of land to build a solar “farm”- ecological damage far exceeding the worst logging job on the planet. Here in Massachusetts, the lunatic enviros just adore these solar and wind “farms” but they hate forestry if it chips wood. They’ve elevated their hatred for “wood for energy” so that now they’re fighting to end all forestry- all logging, while enjoying THEIR wood homes, wood furniture and tons of paper products. Where the hell do they think THAT wood comes from?

Reply to  Bruce Ranta
August 27, 2020 1:08 pm

Bruce Ranta August 26, 2020 at 6:01 pm

Being a Gov’t biologist says it all…the only thing worse would have been you were in Water Management. Those guys take the cake, just like the Government Biologists in the EPA that did so much damage to the economy of the USA under Obummer. All the while effectively working a 16 hour work week, retire at 55 with a fully indexed pension. I despise Gov’t biologists, since they are part of the real enemy we are facing participating in this garbage science that CO2 is pollution. Your rant on forestry is garbage as well, and you know nothing of which you speak.

Reply to  Bruce Ranta
August 27, 2020 5:22 pm

Those replies to my post show how many lunatics are out there. I am by no means a ‘forestry hater’. Good forest practices are the best ways to improve the economy, ensure healthy ecosystems and manage wildlife habitat. But cutting down the forest to make and burn wood pellets, replacing coal, is just coal ‘ultra lite’. BTU is terrible. And everyone knows it. There are many good forestry practices but using the forest to make pellets to generate electricity is asinine. It’s worse than digging up peat bogs to burn. Nat gas is much superior, cleaner and safer. Let’s use wood for useful products.

Reply to  Bruce Ranta
August 27, 2020 10:21 pm

Bruce Ranta…Your statement about cutting down forests to make wood pellets is ignorant and void of facts.

While not representative of all timber products harvested and traded, in 2014, global industrial production of roundwood (felled wood, prior to being processed for sawnwood, pulp, etc.) totaled 1,837 million cubic meters, with the majority of production from Europe, North America and Asia and the Pacific. We do forestry fairly well in the First World.

That is 1.837 Billion Cubic Metres of wood. Say the conversion averages nearly 1000 Kg per m3, (it can vary from 500 Kg/m3 to 1500 Kg/m3) and the efficient use of the tree for lumber/veneer for e.g. is about 60%-65%%. That leaves 35%-40% left in bark and sawdust/chips, with still a lot of forest residue left in the forest to rot. That is many, many millions of tons of forestry wood waste from commercial sawmill activities of various kinds. Some of that fires the kilns to to dry the lumber or make electricity from the bark/sawdust to run the sawmill.

What do you propose we do with all these tens of millions of tons of wood waste? We already take the best of that for OSB, Chipboard, pulp and other products that can be made from that wood waste or some trees are such low value, all they can make is pulp or pellets. What is wrong with making wood pellets from that waste? You show your ignorance of forestry, as has two professional foresters already told you above, and I have been in the forestry business for 41 years growing millions of trees, many of which I planted myself many years ago. You have been a Gov’t bureaucrat all your life from the sounds of it, and don’t even understand the basic concepts.

Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 26, 2020 6:30 pm

There is also the waste wood and sawdust from the mills themselves.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  MarkW
August 27, 2020 12:20 pm

and virtually all of it gets used- either as a source of energy for the mill itself- and much of it is sold to farmers for all sorts of uses (like bedding for animals)

Carl Friis-Hansen
Reply to  Carl Friis-Hansen
August 26, 2020 11:56 pm

All who replied are correct seen from different angles:
“Conclusion is that we need to produce a lot more CO2 and sunshine to make the trees grow fast enough to compensate for the fossil fuels.”

The amount of wood pellets, saw dust, etc. used at the moment may not be at odds with the rate of regrow at this point of time.
However, what I am concerned about is if the wood for energy becomes a significant part of heat and electricity production in general.

The workforce employed by the oil and gas extraction are paid well because the energy they “dig up” per employee is huge compared to virtually all other Green primary energy sources.
It is even better to “dig” uranium, with the only drawback that conversion from the primary energy uranium to the secondary energy electricity initially has a large capital cost.

Reply to  Stephana
August 27, 2020 4:43 am

By divesting of the need to do so.
New age zen outside of the box without training or reward.

/Is it that simple? /It is that simple.

August 26, 2020 11:08 am

In Ontario we had a Liberal government promise a lot of ‘green’ jobs during an election. All they did was leave us with a lot of debt. The good thing was they got beaten badly in the next election. The bad thing is that they left it to the conservatives to clean up their mess. Now it’s those bad conservatives who want to cut services.

August 26, 2020 11:12 am

Talk to Ontario about how many green jobs they got from Billions of useless Liberal spending.

August 26, 2020 11:26 am
Nick Graves
August 26, 2020 11:32 am

Over here, the Labour Party was the representative of the unions.

Now the party detests the blue collar scum with their non-woke views and old fashioned work ethics.

They prefer the indolent hand out brigade and champagne socialists.

Reply to  Nick Graves
August 26, 2020 3:04 pm

Nick Graves

If Welsh (former) mining communities can be persuaded to vote for Boris, you can be sure American blue collar workers can be persuaded to vote for Trump.

Reply to  Nick Graves
August 26, 2020 11:55 pm

And considering former Labour voters seem to have elected a bunch of people who spend even more time drinking champagne…

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 1:27 am


Corbyn’s a millionaire isn’t he?

I hear his wife underpays her coffee workers and turns her profits into Champagne…….

Don’t you just love it when someone inadvertently points out the total hypocrisy of socialists, and is too dumb to even realise it?

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:44 am

The sad thing is, griff believes that he has just made a killer comeback.

August 26, 2020 12:02 pm

The union members would be better off setting up fake or dormant companies to receive federal funds….

August 26, 2020 12:29 pm

I absolutely love that picture. (As a photographer myself.)

Timo V
Reply to  leowaj
August 26, 2020 1:03 pm

Me too. Fellow photog here.

Jeffery P
August 26, 2020 12:36 pm

These proposals always fail to create jobs, green the environment, control energy costs or stop climate change.

But this time it’s different because Dim Bulb Biden and Last Place in the Primary Harris will be in charge.

Yeah, that’s the ticket.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Jeffery P
August 26, 2020 10:20 pm

Jay Inslee did a lot worse than Harris in the primaries. He failed to achieve even 1 percent with his one-issue platform, climate change. That’s all he did was try to make people afraid of the “existential threat”, then accused the Trump administration of running a fear-based campaign. Not too bright, that one.

Bob Hunter
August 26, 2020 12:50 pm

So the union leaders don’t believe their members are smart and can be trained to code like Joe said (sarc)
Even if the govt providing the funding to retrain a 50 yr old in another field, are they going to pay for the individual and family to relocate, the loss on their home, etc. — NO
But the promise to retrain does allow the left to sleep at night.

Bruce Cobb
August 26, 2020 1:01 pm

“Green” jobs don’t add to the economy, they subtract. They are like gigantic, money-sucking leaches on the economy, as are what they produce. The Greenie Liars always fail to mention that. Who would want to be part of an “industry” like that, even if the jobs were any good? It isn’t based on anything real, and could vanish just about overnight.

August 26, 2020 1:16 pm

Somehow the men in the picture don’t look like they would be very “woke.”

John in Oz
Reply to  Ralph Dave Westfall
August 26, 2020 4:37 pm

Nor is there the correct representation of women/LGBTIABCDEF/Black-Vietnamese, transgender nonbinary/gender transcendent mermaid Queen-King/…, black/white/brindle, catholic/muslim/rastafarian/… and every other group identity the wokists say is necessary.

August 26, 2020 2:01 pm

Where’s all the green jobs from the $BILLION Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project near Tonopah? Where’s everybody from Solyndra working now?

From everything I’ve seen so far, Green Jobs refers to the promoters, not labor.

Reply to  DJ
August 26, 2020 11:58 pm

Perhaps if you look at the 99% of solar companies and projects which don’t fail?

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 6:04 am

In that simple minded headcount approach to companies instead of projects you would be mainly talking about the small rooftop installers with the highest costs and greatest dependency on subsidies and lobbyists. As a long time investor in solar as a tech play, I’m constantly frustrated by the misplaced focus on the also rans, non-players with political connections, subsidy miners, and fraudsters. All of them feasted during the Obama years under the big, official banner that said “We don’t pick winners.” The great free market sorting hat has been held back in weeding out the sector thanks to bad public policy and often misguided popular interest.

Kevin R.
August 26, 2020 2:17 pm

If Joe Biden wins and they implement the GND our primary energy source will be the firewood from all those trees that have been planted over the last thirty years.

Reply to  Kevin R.
August 27, 2020 9:39 am

That and some furniture we were preparing to donate down the street. It will burn okay.

August 26, 2020 2:41 pm

Green jobs are like the jobs promised to replace the factory workers under Globalization. Remember those promises? Promised were replacement jobs for factory workers at higher pay and skill levels….. namely service jobs. We would supposedly transform our low wage/skill workers by training them for higher level technical service careers. So we handed the electronics business (literally, gave them the keys) to China. The technical service business to India. Manufacturing to Korea and China. And so on. In return we got unemployment and cheaper products but shrunk the middle class that buys them. Wealth redistribution, plain and simple.

Reply to  markl
August 27, 2020 7:47 am

Why do you hate consumers so much?
The only way to preserve those factory jobs is to subsidize them.

August 26, 2020 3:18 pm

Take a hint from Scotland. The litmus test if you like.

The socialist Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) have for years promised over a hundred thousand jobs thanks to renewable energy.

To date, there are approximately 1,500, mostly maintenance workers whilst the towers, blades and nacelles are made overseas.

One Korean(?) company which was actually manufacturing in Scotland is holding out for more government subsidies whilst the factory is mothballed. As Scotland has now record levels of National Debt as Covid progresses, no more subsidies will be possible.

The rest of the story you know, with rapidly rising electricity bills etc. and I suspect the May Scottish elections will spring as big a surprise on the SNP as Trump did on America first time around (The SNP are reckoned to be a she in for another term in parliament).

August 26, 2020 4:40 pm

A lesson can be learnt from the wind generation performance in the UK over the past 24 hours during which the output from wind has fallen from 12 GW to 0.46 GW.
24 hours ago the BBC was crowing about how big a percentage of UK power came from wind, now it is 2%.
Over the past weeks the performance of wind can be seen to have been a series of peaks and troughs, see:
How would even thousands of new windmills provide a sufficient base load?

Reply to  stephenP
August 27, 2020 6:52 am

They don’t. Baseload is a dead idea. Move on!

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:48 am

At least the trolls are finally admitting the truth.
The idea that you can actually have electricity when you need it is gone. From now on you can have electricity only when the government deems you worthy.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 8:08 am

You haven’t any idea about baseload, right ?
You ever heard about 50Hz ?

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 8:23 am

What??? Are you insane?

Reply to  DrEd
August 27, 2020 9:36 am

Was that a rhetorical question?

August 26, 2020 7:20 pm

They are promoting building 850 foot wind turbines offshore. Imagine the base work and cabling required. And imagine when one of those suckers topples over and needs to be removed. This is the madness of mandating so-called renewable power to utilities. Even Mr Trump has seemingly been unable to stop this nonsense, or perhaps he can’t because it’s all decided at State level by Democrat admistrators or officials in thrall to vested green interests. It’s much like the building of the Easter Island statues by a lost people. A colossal waste of resources. But someone is getting rich from all this nonsense, you can bet on it.

August 26, 2020 10:40 pm

A little known detail of when Mr. Biden most recently reiterated support for “Green Jobs” was that a reporter posed him the stylized personal question famously asked long before of former President Bill Clinton.

The reporter shouted out: “Mr. Biden – boxers or briefs?” Proving once again his mental acuity the former Vice-President rejoined: “Depends.”

August 26, 2020 11:50 pm
Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 1:33 am


You didn’t pay to read the whole article, did you?

You just google’d and chose the first headline you stumbled on.

Reply to  HotScot
August 27, 2020 6:54 am

What the heck: I picked one of three – I don’t intend to spend much time on here.

but if you bothered to look you can find coal power across the EU shutting down and moving workers on.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 7:49 am

Translation: Yes I didn’t bother to actually read the article I posted. I’m too important to waste time actually learning.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 1:37 am

ROFL might want to keep reading what happened next and I can’t believe you want to use the spanish grid as a glowing example 🙂

Reply to  LdB
August 27, 2020 7:50 am

griff is proud of the fact that he never bothers to read past the headlines.
Just look at his response to HotScot.

Reply to  griff
August 27, 2020 8:24 am

The study has other fascinating facts, including the cost of creating a green job (571,000 Euros each!), and how many jobs are lost in the economy as a result of putting on more renewable power.

The arithmetic of green jobs is ineluctable and grim. For each utility worker who moves from conventional electricity generation to renewable generation, two jobs at a similar rate of pay must be foregone elsewhere in the economy, otherwise the funds to pay for the excess costs of renewable generation cannot be provided. Moreover, by raising costs throughout the economy, high cost green energy will reduce the competitiveness of US exporters, thereby destroying (presumably well-paying) jobs in such industries.

Green Job Destruction: The Spain Study (Netting to negative via government)

It is well understood, among economists, that governments do not “create” jobs; the willingness of entrepreneurs to invest their capital, paired with consumer demand for goods and services, does that. All the government can do is subsidize some industries while jacking up costs for others. In the green case, it is destroying jobs in the conventional energy sector–and most likely in other industrial sectors–through taxes and subsidies to new green companies that will use taxpayer dollars to undercut the competition. The subsidized jobs “created” are, by definition, less efficient uses of capital than market-created jobs. That means they are less economically productive than the jobs they displace and contribute less to economic growth. Finally, the good produced by government-favored jobs is inherently a non-economic good that has to be maintained indefinitely, often without an economic revenue model, as in the case of roads, rail systems, mass transit, and probably windmills, solar-power installations, and other green technologies.

To understand how this works in practice, I now turn to four European countries that went hog wild for renewables, while singing the praises of green jobs: Spain, Italy, Germany, Denmark, the United Kingdom (UK), and the Netherlands.

Since 2000, Spain spent 571,138 euros on each green job, including subsidies of more than 1 million euros per job in the wind industry.
The programs creating those jobs destroyed nearly 110,500 jobs elsewhere in the economy (2.2 jobs destroyed for every green job created).
The high cost of electricity mainly affects production costs and levels of employment in metallurgy, nonmetallic mining and food processing, and beverage and tobacco industries.
Each “green” megawatt installed destroys 5.28 jobs elsewhere in the economy on average.
These costs do not reflect Spain’s particular approach but rather the nature of schemes to promote renewable energy sources.

The Myth of Green Energy Jobs: The European Experience

August 27, 2020 6:59 am

Speaking of jobs BS:

U.S. Senate Democrats unveil $400 billion-a-year plan to tackle climate change
Yahoo Finance Aug. 27th

The plan would aim to create at least 10 million jobs in areas like clean energy manufacturing and research and development for new technologies, the 260-page report by the Democrats’ Special Committee on the Climate Crisis said.

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