In favor of epistemic trespassing #coronavirus

Reposted from Dr. Judith Curry’s Climate Etc.

Posted on April 14, 2020 by curryja

by Judith Curry

On the importance of expertise from other fields for COVD19 and climate change.

This post is motivated by a tweet from Steve McIntyre, with comment from Ken Rice:

Here is the link to Annan’s post Dumb and Dumber, its actually quite good.  The money quote:

“All these people exhorting amateurs to “stay in their lane” and not muddy the waters by providing analyses and articles about the COVID-19 pandemic would have an easier job of it if it wasn’t for the supposed experts churning out dross on an industrial scale.”

McIntyre responds:

Epistemic trespassing

Shortly after spotting this twitter exchange, I spotted a link to a new paper entitled (tweeted by Oxford Philosophy) entitled Epistemic Trespassing.  Excerpts:

“Epistemic trespassers are thinkers who have competence or expertise to make good judgments in one field, but move to another field where they lack competence—and pass judgment nevertheless. We should doubt that trespassers are reliable judges in fields where they are outsiders.”  In other words, stay in your lane.

“Trespassing is a significant problem in an age of expertise and punditry, but it’s not new. In Plato’s Apology, Socrates tells us he tracked down citizens in Athens who had reputations for being skilled. He met politicians, poets, and craftsmen and tested their mettle. As Socrates says, he ‘found those who had the highest reputation were nearly the most deficient’ . Socrates diagnosed the problem: because these men had been so successful in their particular crafts, each one ‘thought himself very wise in most important pursuits, and this error of theirs overshadowed the wisdom they had’ . Puffed up by their achievements in one domain, the successful Athenians trespassed on matters about which they were ignorant.”

“First, trespassing is a widespread problem that crops up especially in the practice of interdisciplinary research, as opposed to what we might call ‘single-discipline’ research. Second, reflecting on trespassing should lead us to have greater intellectual modesty, in the sense that we will have good reason to be far less confident we have the right answers to many important questions.”

“Epistemic trespassing of the sort I’ve noted is easy to recognize. Experts drift over a highly-visible boundary line and into a domain where they lack either the relevant evidence or the skills to interpret the evidence well. But they keep talking nonetheless. Experts on a public stage are cast in the role of the ‘public intellectual’ or ‘celebrity academic’. They may find trespassing all but impossible to resist. Microphones are switched on, TV cameras zoom in, and ‘sound bites’ come forth, coaxed out of the commentators by journalists. So what do you have to say about philosophy, Neil deGrasse Tyson? And what about arguments for the existence of God, Professor Dawkins? I don’t think trespassing is exclusively a problem for scholars in the limelight, however, and one of my goals here is to explain why ordinary researchers often risk trespassing, too.”

“But first we must understand what the epistemological problem with trespassing is. There is not only one problem. Consider three types of problematic trespassing cases, where two different fields share a particular question:

  1. (a)  Experts in one field lack another field’s evidence and skills;
  2. (b)  Experts in one field lack evidence from another field but have its skills;
  3. (c)  Experts in one field have evidence from another field but lack its skills.

“I will examine three strategies to justify acts of trespassing and thereby preserve rational confidence in trespassers’ answers to hybridized questions. Again, we are assuming some trespassers are experts in one field but encroach on another field.

  • (D1) I am trespassing on another field, but that field does not feature any relevant evidence or skills that bear on my view about p;
  • (D2) I am trespassing on another field, but my own field’s evidence conclusively establishes that p is true;
  • (D3) I am trespassing on another field, but my own field’s skills successfully ‘transfer’ to the other field.”

“I suspect we must trespass to answer most important questions. Perhaps this means we should never trespass alone. Instead, we must rely on the expertise of others. What we need, to extend the trespassing metaphor, is an ‘easement’ or ‘right of way’ for travel beyond our fields’ boundaries. The right of safe passage could be secured by our collaboration with cross-field experts. Imagine your colleague is a representative source of evidence, skills, and potential criticism from another field. Even if you don’t have direct knowledge of that field, if your colleague tests out your answer to a hybridized question and tells you it sounds right to her, then your view is appar- ently more reasonable than it would have been otherwise. Trespassers may gain reasonable beliefs by engaging in certain kinds of discussion with cross-field colleagues.”

While this paper raises some interesting issues, its main goal seems to be protecting the turf of academic subfields.

COVID19 and climate change

Complex issues such as COVID19 and climate change, with massive policy implications, introduce a whole host of additional issues related to epistemic trespassing.  I’ve written many blog posts on expertise [link].

Here is a pet peeve of mine:  many academics who label themselves as ‘climate scientists’, even though their degrees might be in economics, biology, whatever, have no compunction about speaking publicly, and responding to reporters’ queries, on climate topics well outside their expertise.  They use their status as ‘climate scientist’ to expound on aspects of climate science, economics, policy, whatever, that they know next to nothing about.

The flip side of this coin is the dismissal by academics of the likes of Steve McIntyre, who has brought much needed expertise in statistics and data probity to the field of paleoclimate.

Moving on to COVID19, the problems with COVID19 projections were summarized in a number of posts in the most recent CoV Discussion Thread:

  • Don’t believe the COVID models – that’s not what they’ for [link]
  • Mathematical models to characterize early epidemic growth: A review. [link]
  • On the predictability of infectious disease outbreaks [link]
  • Dramatic reduction in COVID disaster projections [link]
  • America’s most influential COV model just revised its estimates downward – but not all models agree [link]
  • How can COVID models get it so wrong? [link]

James Annan has another good blog post: Model calibration, nowcasting and operational prediction of the COVID19 pandemic

“Turns out that calibrating a simple model with observational data is much the same whether it’s paleoclimate or epidemics. The maths and the methods are much the same. In fact this one is a particularly easy one as the model is embarrassingly linear (once you take the logarithm of the time series).”

“The basic concept is to use the model to invert the time series of reported deaths back through the time series of underlying infections in order to discover the model parameters such as the famous reproductive rate R. It’s actually rather simple and I am still bemused by the fact that none of the experts (in the UK at least) are doing this. I mean what on earth are mathematical epidemiologists actually for, if not this sort of thing? They should have been all over this like a rash. The exponential trend in the data is a key diagnostic of the epidemic and the experts didn’t even bother with the most elementary calibration of this in their predictions that our entire policy is based on. It’s absolutely nuts. It’s as if someone ran a simulation with a climate model and presented the prediction without any basic check on whether it reproduced the recent warming. You’d get laughed out of the room if you tried that at any conference I was attending. By me if no-one else (no, really, I wouldn’t be the only one).”

While I haven’t dug into COVID models at all, with regards to model calibration and nowcasting my experience in weather forecasting is even more relevant here than climate modeling.  For operational weather prediction (say for hurricanes), there are several components to calibration of the forecasts.  You can calibrate the model inputs and/or the model outputs.  You can calibrate the model based on historical forecasts for previous epidemics (compared with observations). You can also calibrate the model based on recent error statistics (in model inputs and/or outputs).  The experiences/outcomes of each country impacted by COVID provides data to be used in calibration.

It appears that the weather/climate community has much to offer in terms of COVID modeling.  Fortunately, weather and climate scientists haven’t been ‘staying in their lane,’ we’ve seen a number of COVID analyses from this community (including a few at Climate Etc.

Postnormal pandemics

The postnormal science group (Funtowicz, Ravetz, van der Sluijs et al.) have written an article PostNormal Pandemics.

“Despite the truly historic mobilization of science, our knowledge in crucial areas is still swamped by ignorance, especially on the sources of the virus but also on its progress and future outcomes. The expertise employed in COVID-19 policy advice builds on speculative assumptions on the virus itself, and how far it’s possible to control and predict how people behave.

Known unknowns include the real prevalence of the virus in the population; the role of asymptomatic cases in the rapid spread of the virus; the degree to which humans develop immunity; the dominant exposure pathways; the disease’s seasonal behaviour; the time to deliver global availability of an effective vaccine or cure; and the nonlinear response of individuals and collectives to the social distancing interventions in the complex system of communities interconnected across multiple scales, with many tipping points, and hysteresis loops (implying that society may not be able to rebound to the state it was in before the coronavirus interventions took place). These deep uncertainties make quantitative predictions speculative and unreliable.

Instead, following a pattern well known to PNS practitioners, predictions which purportedly “jarred the U.S. and the U.K. to action” can only be obtained by mathematical models that produce crisp numbers, even though these numbers have been obtained at the cost of artificially compressing the associated uncertainty. “There is no number-answer to your question,” explodes an angry medical expert to the politician trying to force a number out of him.

It would be much more effective to run our societies under the assumption that our resources should not be allocated according to a strategy of prediction and control.

More data (even ‘reliable data’) and better predictive models cannot resolve the ‘distribution of sacrifice’ which involves, among other things, the arbitration of dilemmas that appear at every scale. This cannot be delivered by artificial intelligence, algorithms and models alone. We need to pursue an adaptability based on preserving diversity and flexible management.”

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Schrodinger's Cat
April 15, 2020 9:57 am

There is nothing wrong with models if they are validated by rigorous testing under a range of conditions .
There is everything wrong with climate models.

Centre-leftist
April 15, 2020 10:00 am

Recently, an Australian article on a News Corp website saw an expert denounce six climate change myths.

I commented by putting forward six myths of modern journalism, one of which was the mythical ability of journalists to instinctively know who is an expert on a given subject such as climate change and who is to be labelled a denier and pilloried. Another myth was the commitment of journalists to freedom of speech.

Naturally, the comment did not pass moderation, not for any immoderate tendencies other than being from a denier. Thus, I followed up with a comment thanking the moderator for not approving my comment, thereby proving my comment to be correct.

The expert then proceeded to “take down” the deniers’ comments in a subsequent piece. It was the usual grab-bag of illogical sneering masquerading as science.

I must say that I was deeply offended in not getting a guernsey there! However, I rather doubt that the ‘climate change expert’ had any desire to substantiate her truly tenuous hold on that title, nor had the journalist for promoting it.

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Centre-leftist
April 15, 2020 8:25 pm

news.com.au, far from being the ‘Hate Media’ our Social Elite claim, is a fake news clickbait site.

Yes it does host many people who are conservatives, but you only have to look at what is currently their most popular video to see how dedicated they are to unbias reporting.

The Australian can go jump as well. One of their columnist once stated – mainly in order to belittle then PM Tony Abbott – that the job loss of myself and about 300 of my once work mates never happened and we didn’t exist.

Hey, only took 6 years to finally reboot my career. No big deal.

I actually rarely hate people, but I also rarely forgive.

Dodgy Geezer
April 15, 2020 10:07 am

“……In Plato’s Apology, Socrates tells us he tracked down citizens in Athens who had reputations for being skilled. He met politicians, poets, and craftsmen and tested their mettle. As Socrates says, he ‘found those who had the highest reputation were nearly the most deficient’ ……..”

Remind me again – what were Socrates’ qualifications for making these pronouncements about politics, poetry and woodwork..?

Richard Saumarez
April 15, 2020 11:21 am

I think Annan’s paper on the Markov chain modeling is interesting. I suspect that it is relatively robust and is sufficiently simply not to become too ill-conditioned as regards parameter fitting. He makes a good point if other models are not self-calibrating.

RG
Reply to  Richard Saumarez
April 15, 2020 4:31 pm

Markov Monte-Carlo chain modelling method is certainly a useful tool for modelling various outputs in number of scientific research areas. I was using it few times to get an answer which treatment of some cancer sites is more cost-effective: proton therapy or VMAT photon one. However, the reliability/validity of the result created by Markov chain method heavily depends on the correct probabilities values entered as an input of number of parameters used by the model. In other words the method is very much vulnerable to the classical GIGO syndrome.

April 15, 2020 11:50 am

My first reaction is to reject the idea of … epistemic trespassing.

What is being put forth here is a neat label that can TOO EASILY bed called into play to dismiss intelligent contributions from one field to another.

You don’t like what a seasoned mathematical physicist says about a climate scientists use of physics. Hey, no problem, just accuse him of … “epistemic trespassing” — that should be enough to get him off your back.

This phrase is just a fake phrase to complicate an already established duality — namely, good analysis vs bad analysis, thus, creating a verbal tool to dismiss competent, valid ideas from anyone . This phrase is a gift to climate alarmists, in particular — I can see it coming up quite frequently now. If you are not in the group of folks who publish climate articles in the good-ol’-boys climate journals, then you are now automatically subject to the position of an “epistemic trespasser”.

I reject this phrase, “epistemic trespassing”, just as I reject the phrase, “climate denier”.

SPQR
April 15, 2020 12:36 pm

The Cult of “Science” cannot tolerate heresy.

Real science is advanced by heretics knocking the priesthood off their pedestals.

Pete W.
April 15, 2020 1:25 pm

I can’t directly fault what is posted above regarding trespassing. However, it does bring to my mind memories of British activites during WW2. Bletchley Park and the Royal Navy Operational Research department (to name but two) drew their staff from an exceedingly wide range of Peacetime occupations. How were those cocktails of talent and expertise rendered effective (and they were effective)? Could it have been down to good/inspired leadership??? I don’t know.

Pete W.
Reply to  Pete W.
April 16, 2020 5:07 am

Please delete ‘activites’, replace with ‘activities’.

damp
April 15, 2020 1:26 pm

Apologies for the off-topic post, but I wanted this group to see a conversation-changing item I found. It calculates your risk of dying from coronavirus based on your demographic information.

https://www.solenya.org/coronavirus

As I hear the stats each day, it occurs to me that if one is working-age and not living in NYC, one’s chances of succumbing to COVID-19 are pretty low. Turns out mine are lower than being struck by lightning. And I’m not afraid of being struck by lightning.

Mark Luhman
Reply to  damp
April 15, 2020 3:50 pm

“I’m not afraid of being struck by lightning.” I am if I fishing in aluminum boat hanging onto a graphic fish rod and they are thunder storms around. One such sunny day I did get a shock off my rod and when I held said rod it hummed yes I did hear rumbling far off. Needless to say rod went to bottom of boat and boat headed to shore. Said thunder storm never got close to where I was that day. Must have been nearly fifteen miles away. Thanks for the link.

slow to follow
April 15, 2020 2:00 pm

Steve is right: use of proper techniques shouldn’t be contentious.

Problem is that many who should have been in the slow lane, or not on the road at all, have pulled out in to the fast lane without the horsepower to make the pace.

A better analogy would be “those without a license should stay off the highway”.

April 15, 2020 2:06 pm

In Spanish a know it all is called “sabelo todo” (saber = know, lo = it, todo = all). Stateside I went to open a bank account & was asked to list my occupation.

Being retired & no longer working I put down retired. The bi-lingual desk jockey said “not acceptable” & so I put down sabelo todo.

This led to the assistant manager being called over & after hearing the translation of my occupation as know it all said “not acceptable”. So I put down worker, because I still did things with plants.

Still not satisfied the assistant manager said “not acceptable”. So I began to lay out from my late teens 30+ years of work living outside the USA.

We retirees have few captive audiences to regale & I was just dredging up some detail when the assistant manage looked longingly at her pile of desk papers as being suddenly immensely interesting. She cut me off & we agreed on “laborer” as my occupation – but fellow WUWT regulars know I just an old sabelo todo.

Greg Cavanagh
April 15, 2020 2:52 pm

RE: “We should doubt that trespassers are reliable judges in fields where they are outsiders.” In other words, stay in your lane.”

I’m not going to agree with this. While I do know of many examples where one’s opinion is dross, on a fundamental level I think this conclusion is wrong.

I believe it’s better to explain why you think a thing is, that way anyone can evaluate that opinion and point out errors, be inspired by a new idea, realise there’s a link between X and Y (cross pollination in science used to be a thing).

I’m basing this, my opinion, on the fact that I work in engineering. I’m a civil designer, my fields of study were everything from geology, soil mechanics, hydrology, structural mechanics, and many more. While Engineers work in a specialised field, the lesser known designers have a wide set of skills, but the most fundamental of skills is the ability to read any manual and understand it. (and yes, some are better than others).

My proposition therefor is: As long as someone’s opinion can be explained as to why they believe as they do, the opinion may be of interest. If it’s just an opinion from authority and they refuse to explain it, it should be held with suspicion.

April 15, 2020 2:55 pm

Some epistemic trespassers:

-Albert Einstein, patent clerk, presuming to know something about physics, publishing 4 papers in 1905 on the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, special relativity, and matter-energy equivalence (E=mc²)
-Hedy Lamarr, actress, had the gall to think she could invent frequency-hopping spread spectrum wireless radio technology in 1942 that is now used all over the world in things like WiFi routers and Bluetooth devices.

Neville
April 15, 2020 4:08 pm

So why are Taiwan deaths from the wuflu now 0.3 per mil and NY state deaths now 591 per mil?
Yet Taiwan is only about 29% the size of New York state ( sq klms) and has been/is operating in a fairly normal way, certainly no lock downs etc while NY has been operating under severe lock down for weeks.
Also Taiwan is about 110 klms from the Chinese coastline and has about 4 million more people than NY state. What’s going on or as J S Miller would say , “why is it so”?
Check it out for yourself.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Curious George
Reply to  Neville
April 15, 2020 4:40 pm

There are many possibilities, like “They understand China better”, or “The virus does not survive in hot climates”.

J Mac
Reply to  Neville
April 15, 2020 5:39 pm

It does seem like a glaring outlier, doesn’t it?

Ian Coleman
April 15, 2020 4:31 pm

If I were being honest, just about everything I say about most topics is epistemic trespass.

Actually, I have a certain respect for the good sense of most people. My own rejection of the climate catastrophe narrative is not founded on any useful knowledge of climate modelling or climatology itself. My doubts arise from an intuitive distrust of people who won’t submit to fair argument. The climate change guys immediately get my suspicions up by suppressing dissent. (Same with the Evolution guys, to cite a parallel example. )

The thing about this site that really makes an impression is how learned about Science so many of the posters are. Not me, but many of the others. Also, a lot of these posters are such clear writers than I can understand their arguments. (I took Engineering in university. I didn’t graduate, but I did acquire a good understanding of analytical thought and statistical analysis. I know how to test a null hypothesis. Stuff like that.)

FranBC
April 15, 2020 5:04 pm

Oh for the days when a bunch of us from different specialities (including grad students) gathered in the coffee room for hour long lunches and epistemically trespassed. The dept provided coffee for all, including precocious undergrads. I got to revel in it in two universities for many years. A lot of good ideas actually came out of it. It all ended with us all eating at our computers writing grant applications.

April 15, 2020 8:17 pm

So which lane should the “jack of all trades, master of none” stay in?

But a big problem I see is that ego often prevents experts “in their lane” refuse to accept input from experts in a different lane.
(Also, some are declared to be “experts” in their lane when they are nothing of the sort. But it is useful to declare them to be “experts” because they can be … useful.)

niceguy
Reply to  Gunga Din
April 16, 2020 7:11 am

Without being an expert yourself, can you even identify “lanes”?

With really narrow “lanes” of hyper-specialization, it isn’t that obvious.

Craig from Oz
April 15, 2020 8:35 pm

(from the article above)

“The flip side of this coin is the dismissal by academics of the likes of Steve McIntyre…”

This is the danger. When you start to enforce who can and can’t trespass, you end up with gatekeeping.

Then comes the question, who gates the gatekeepers?

Simple answer is no one. They create their own safespace environments and moderate all discussion to ensure there is no hate speech within their boundaries.

To be pragmatic you are never going to breech their walls, so it is probably best not to try. You don’t need to convince THEM that their argument is wrong, just their audience. Sing to the watching crowd, not the others hogging the stage.

niceguy
April 15, 2020 9:23 pm

You don’t have to completely eat a rotten egg to say it’s rotten.

Those annoying anti-Raoult whiners said nothing about:

– nearly all vaccines
– Tamiflu (or similar antivirals)
– modern, “better” anti cancer drugs that perform no better
– breast cancer screening
– President Trump touting better cancer care in the US (he may be right, but the number he gave is irrelevant BS promoted by the cancer industry)

Didier Raoult was right to criticize climate modeling in Le Point. It isn’t trespassing into atmospheric, physical, or modeling sciences. He never claimed to be able to do better models. Those who think they can get him on that only owned themselves.

niceguy
April 15, 2020 11:39 pm

“Stay in your lane”

OK then, how is that guy in his lane?

@EdselSalvana
Infectious Diseases Physician, Molecular Biologist, @TEDFellow, #TEDSpeaker, #IDSAFellow, #HIV and #vaccine activist. No online consults, just useful info.

“There is pretty good evidence that the genome of SARS-CoV-2 evolved NATURALLY. NO indication it was weaponized. Analysis of the whole genome would have turned up evidence of manipulation. This virus seems to have evolved naturally from bats.”

“would have turned up evidence”? How the hell does he know? What role has he played either inventing or identifying a man made virus?

He doesn’t say. Nobody dared to ask him!

niceguy
April 16, 2020 1:47 am

When the medical doctors posted graphic images of emergency rooms with blood all over the place to push for “gun control” (whatever that is), were they in their lane?

(Also, how are we supposed to trust doctors who post images so gross?)

April 16, 2020 4:34 am

A general comment:
The generalist knows little about everything
The specialist knows a lot about nothing…

Reality lies somewhere in between:
As the scientific method commands: it’s not the person or his credentials or expertise that counts,
its the scientific arguments that are brought forward which are relevant. There is no “trespassing”.

Alan D. McIntire
April 16, 2020 5:47 am

Proficiency in “Climate Science” requires an expertise in Geology- studying actual PAST changes in climate, an expertise in Astronomy and Astrophysics- the effects of changes in the Sun’s luminosity, changes in cosmic rays, an expertise in Oceanography- Earth’s oceans have about 1000 times the heat capacity of air, an expertise in Mathematics and statistics- to correctly analyze statistical trends and not fall for spurious “Arcsine rule” trends, etc. NOBODY has an expertise in ALL of these fields.

“Historically, students of the atmosphere and climate have had proficiency in one
of the physical disciplines that underpin the subject, but not in the others. Under the
fashionable umbrella of climate science, many today do not have proficiency in even one.
What is today labeled climate science includes everything from archeology of the
Earth to superficial statistics and a spate of social issues. Yet, many who embrace the
label have little more than a veneer of insight into the physical processes that actually
control the Earth-atmosphere system, let alone what is necessary to simulate its evolution
reliably. Without such insight and its application to resolve major uncertainties,
genuine progress is unlikely.”- Murray Salby, Preface to “Physics of the Atmosphere and Climate”.

brent
April 16, 2020 1:45 pm
April 16, 2020 2:05 pm

I am a victim of epistemic parochialism.

I am not a climate scientist. In fact, I am not a scientist with a degree or standing in any field … except one: data analysis. In that I am highly qualified. I work in aerospace. That field requires … how shall I say … fairly rigorous truth tests at every stage of everything!

The sting is this: I receive insults and shoutdowns from both sides of the climate change issue! The Appeal to Authority comes out with alarming alacrity!

This does not hurt my feelings; it serves as a smoking gun that I have put my finger on something, since the attacks do not address my charts, only on my “amateur” or “non-peer-group” standing.

Well, true science is transparent, repeatable, falsifiable, and conclusions must be arrived at with sound reasoning. All rationals are invited to come on in, take your best shot, but only the facts.

The data underlying any claim is to be made public in its complete, raw form. I seize it. Other data mavens do the same. We are the peer group. Those too close to the trees must be locked outside while we data people are at work.

April 16, 2020 10:26 pm

An expert is someone who can spot the problem with an argument before a layman. They might get tired of repeating themselves but they aren’t in communication with God.

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