Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been following the many changes in the IHME coronavirus model used by our very own most incompetent Dr. Fauci. (In passing, let me note that he’s been wrong about most everything from the start—from first saying it was not a problem, to predicting 200,000 deaths in the US (based on an earlier version of this model), to advising people to NOT wear masks, to opposing chloroquine. But I digress …)
The IHME model is here, and it’s well worth a look, although not worth too much trust—it’s been wrong too many times. To their credit they’ve put the results online here.
Another problem with it is that the presentation of the data is so good. It’s good enough that it’s hard not to take it as fact.
The model historically has predicted numbers that were too high. The latest incarnation of the model is predicting 81,766 COVID-19 deaths in the US by August 4, 2020. That’s down from 93,000 in the previous incarnation of the model. Are they finally right? History makes one cautious. There’s a discussion of the upgrade of the model here.
However, despite their past high estimates in absolute numbers, I figured that their estimates of the shapes of the responses is likely pretty close to realistic. So I thought I’d take a look at the projected daily deaths, to see what I could learn. In particular, I wanted to investigate this idea of “flattening the curve”.
What does “flattening the curve” mean? It is based on the hope that our interventions will slow the progress of the disease. By doing so, we won’t get as many deaths on any given day. And this means less strain on a city or a country’s medical system.
Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period. Valuable indeed, critical at times, but keep in mind that these delaying interventions do not reduce the reach of the infection. Unless your health system is so overloaded that people are needlessly dying, the final numbers stay the same.
Now, the model lists three kind of interventions on a state-by-state basis. The interventions are:
• Stay at home order
• Educational facilities closed
• Non-essential services closed
I figured I could take a look to see if imposing those restrictions would make a difference to how flat the curve is. Of course, to do that, I had to figure out a variable that would represent the “flatness” of the curve. After some experimentation, I settled on using the highest daily death number as a percentage of the total number of deaths. For convenience I’ve called this number the “peak factor”, and the larger it is, the more peaked the curve is.
So to start with, here are a couple of states with very different peak factors from two ends of the scale. The graph shows the shapes of the curves, but not the actual sizes, of the daily death counts in the two states.

Figure 1. The shapes of the curves of daily deaths for West Virginia and Missouri. Both have been scaled to a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1, and then aligned to zero. Both datasets slightly smoothed (Gaussian filter, FWHM = 3 days). For purposes of illustration of curve flattening, I’ve adjusted them so the total number of deaths are the same in both states.
Note that the area outside the blue line but still under the yellow line (bottom center) is equal to the amount of the peak above the yellow line. It’s the same total amount, just spread out over time.
Now, that looks like interventions are working … except for one detail. West Virginia imposed all three restrictions. Missouri only imposed two. And for those two, Missouri imposed them both later than did West Virginia.
So that pair certainly doesn’t say much for the effectiveness of our interventions. Why are they so different? Unknown, but presumably because of things including the density and distribution of the population.
So that’s what the effect of the interventions should look like. It should take a peaked curve and transform them, stretch them out over a longer time with a lower peak. And more interventions should flatten the peak even more.
Intrigued by all of this, I returned to the IHME model. One interesting discovery that I made was that for all of the states, the number of deaths before the peak is very close to the number of deaths after the peak. This was true for states with a high peak factor as well as a low peak factor, across the board. This should allow us a rough-and-ready rule of thumb to estimate the total deaths once the peak is passed.
Note that this rule of thumb is true no matter when the lockdowns are removed—all that will do is change the date of the deaths, not the total number calculated by the rule of thumb.
For example, Italy. Let me go look it up at Worldometer … OK, the peak was on March 28th, at about 10,000 deaths. That would make me think that total deaths in Italy will be on the order of 20,000 deaths.
To check that prediction, I just now looked for the first time at the IHME model country page for Italy. Until this latest update, they didn’t cover other countries, just the US. OK, the IHME model says 20,300 deaths projected for Italy. So my rule of thumb appears to work quite well. Let me test it with Spain. First, Worldometer. It says there had been 9,400 deaths by the time of the peak daily death in Spain. Rule of thumb says that the total should be on the order of 18,800 deaths. Turns out when I got there that the IHME model page for Spain says 19,200 deaths. So it seems that the rule of thumb works well, at least according to the model. Whether it works in the real world remains to be seen …
Next I looked at the peak factor for all the states versus the number of interventions, to see if the interventions tended to lower the peaks and flatten the curve. Figure 3 shows that result.

Figure 2. Scatterplot, “peak factor” showing how peaked the curve is, versus the number of interventions imposed on the populace. Red “whisker” lines show one sigma uncertainty of the median. Since there are only two states with zero intervention, no uncertainty calculation is possible.
As you can see, the total number of interventions makes no statistically significant difference in the flattening of the curve.
So I thought, well, let me look at the dates of each of the three types of interventions—stay at home, close schools, close businesses. Maybe there is relationship there. First, here are peak factors of the various states versus the timing of their “stay-at-home” order. Over time, the intervention should lead to lower peak factors, with early adopters getting greater benefit. Here’s that result.

Figure 3. Scatterplot, peak factors of the states versus the date on which they imposed the “stay-at-home” order. The yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. The trend is not statistically significant.
What that says is the opposite of what we’d expect—in this case, the later the intervention happened, the flatter the curve. Should be the other way around, earlier interventions should lead to more effect on the outcome.
Next I looked at the closing of non-essential services. Here’s that result.

Figure 4. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all inessential services. Again, the yellow line is a “robust” trend, one which downweights any outliers. This time the trend is statistically significant (p-value = .028)
However, despite the statistical significance of the trend line, it’s going the wrong way. The early adopters should be less peaked by now, not more peaked. Finally, here is the school closure data.

Figure 5. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
It’s sloped the wrong way again, but I saw that graph and I thought “Hang on … that one data point is influencing all the rest”. So removed that point, which happened to be Iowa, and took another look.

Figure 6. Scatterplot, peak factor versus the date of closing of all schools. Trend is not statistically significant.
At least this one is going slightly the right way, although the trend is still not significant. That lack of a clear result may be a result of the bluntness of the instrument and the small size of the data sample.
Despite the lack of significance, I suspect that of all of the actions taken in the Western world to slow the spread of this illness, closing the schools could be the only one to have an actual measurable effect. Don’t get me wrong, any intervention has some effect however small. But I mean a real significant effect.
I say closing schools could have this effect because schools, particularly grade schools, could have been designed to be a very effective way to spread an infection. Consider. You not only have the kids packed in close together indoors for five days out of the week. Worse, it’s the same kids every day, so they have multiple chances to infect each other. Worse yet, they all go back home at the end of the day to infect the rest of the family, or to bring in new fun illnesses for “show-and-tell-time” at school to start the process over.
And finally, as all kids do, they wrestle and kick and cough and grab each other and sneeze and spit on the ground and trade clothing and eat bits of each others’ lunches … it’s a perfect petri dish.
So if you want to slow an infection, closing the schools at least makes logical sense.
On the other hand, stay-at-home orders where people still go out for groceries as well as to either work in “essential” jobs or purchase other essentials (and non-), that seems like a joke to me. The virus is sneaky. The Fed-Ex driver just dropped off a couple of packages here … there are still loads of people out and about. It’s all around. It can live on surfaces. It is transported by coughing, sneezing, or even talking. Yes, if you do a full-on surveillance state detecting, tracking, and contact tracing like South Korea has done, that will work. But you need to give your phone GPS data to the government to make that work. There’s no way Americans, or most westerners in general, would do that.
The western style style of quarantine leaks virus like a “closed” Senate hearing leaks classified information, and then the virus is transported everywhere. There’s really no attempt being made to track contacts. I suspect it would be futile at this point.
Overall? I see little evidence that the various measures adopted by the western nations have had much effect. And with the exception of closing schools, I would not expect them to do so given the laxness of the lockdown and the vague nature of “essential business”. I’ve mentioned before, here in Sonoma Country California, the local cannabis retailer is considered an essential business … strange but absolutely true.
Finally, I want to talk about that most mundane of things, the humble cost/benefit analysis. Draw a vertical line down a sheet of paper, label one side “Costs” and the other “Benefits”. Write them down on the appropriate side, add them up. We’ve all done some variation of that, even if just mentally.
Unfortunately, it seems Dr. Fauci doesn’t do cost/benefit analyses. It seems he only looks at or cares about the benefits. He called millions of people being thrown out of work “unfortunate” … unfortunate? It is a huge cost that he doesn’t want to think about. He’s not going to lose his job. His friends won’t lose their jobs. Meanwhile, at the same time that he’s saying “unfortunate”, the mental health hotlines and the suicide hotlines are ringing off the wall. People are going off the rails. Domestic violence calls are through the roof, and understandably. Forcibly take the jobs away from a wife and a husband, tell them that they are under house arrest, that’s stress enough … and meanwhile there’s no money coming in, rent and electricity bills are piling up, can’t put gas in the car, kids bouncing off the walls from being cooped up … of course domestic violence and suicides and mental health problems are off the charts.
Which brings me to California where I live. If California were a country it would have the fifth-largest economy in the world. Fifth. Just California. The annual GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the total value of everything we produce) of California in round numbers is three trillion per year. We have no hard figures, but it would not surprise me if 2020 was only seventy percent of normal, not from the virus, but from the government pulling the wheels off of the economy. That’s a loss of Nine. Hundred. Billion. Dollars. That’s bigger than the GDP of most countries, up in smoke.
And that’s not counting the cost of partially offseting the governmental destruction. First, the government pulled the wheels off of the economy. And now, they’re pumping out taxpayers’ dollars like water to try to ease the pain that they’ve just inflicted. That $1,200 check people are talking about? That a cost, not a benefit as the chatterati would have us believe. It comes out of our pockets. And there are all kinds of other associated expenses, lost wages, the list goes on and on.
So overall, here in California alone we’ve lost pushing a trillion dollars of value, with millions out of work, tens of thousands of businesses shuttered forever, discord and dismay abounding … and for what? For what?
Well, it’s for the following. Here is the IHME model projection for coronavirus deaths in the fifth largest economy in the world …

Figure 7. Projected coronavirus deaths, California.
That’s it? That’s all? Eighteen hundred dead? That’s less than California murders. It’s less than California gun deaths. It’s a third of our drug overdose deaths, for heaven’s sake, and guess what?
The trillion dollars we lost from the government shutting down the California economy?
It won’t save one of those 1,783 people. Not one.
It will just delay their deaths by a week or two.
A trillion in losses are on the cost side of the cost/benefit analysis. And on the benefits side, all we have is a two-week delay in eighteen hundred unavoidable deaths? That’s it? That’s all that a trillion dollars buys you these days?
Ah, you say, but more people might die if the medical system is overwhelmed. Are there enough beds and ventilators?
Well, glad you asked. Here are the figures, again from the IHME model. Unfortunately, as with the number of deaths, all the previous incarnations of the model have overestimated the need for hospital resources … but with that caveat, here are their California numbers.

No bed shortage. No ICU bed shortage. And we just shipped some ventilators to New York. We should peak in a week.
And while we’re waiting for the peak, we’ve just spent about a trillion dollars to delay 1,783 deaths by a few weeks. Not to save anyone’s life, I say again. Just to delay a couple thousand deaths by a couple weeks … look, it still wouldn’t be worth a trillion dollars even if we could actually save that many lives and not just delay their deaths. If it helps your conscience you could give the family of each person who could have been saved a million dollars, that’s only 0.2% of your trillion dollars, and the economy could keep humming along.
But it’s simply not worth totally wrecking the lives of 30 million Californians just to save eighteen hundred lives. That’s madness, that’s a terrible deal.
I have opposed this from the start. I don’t do a one-sided “benefits” analysis like Dr. Fauci does. I do a COST/benefit analysis, and we’ve just looked at it. Here’s the conclusion of that analysis:
Even if your hospital system is going to get overloaded, even if more people are going to die, put the trillion dollars into making the medical system the strongest and most resilient imaginable. Spend it on field hospitals and stocks of disposables, buy ventilators, buy hospitals, buy medical schools, buy beds and gowns, that’s what will save lives. I don’t care, shut down the grade schools if you have to although with a solid medical system you likely won’t have to … but whatever you do …
DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY, STUPID!! The costs are far, far too great.
Just the human costs are beyond measure. Lives ripped apart, suicides, endless worry and concern, running out of money to feed the kids, there’s no end to it, lying in bed at night wondering when they’ll let you out of jail.
And that’s all before we even get to the economic costs and the ripple-effect costs and the loss of productive capacity and the canceled contracts and the lawyers’ fees and finally, the start-up capital required, and the businesses that will have gone elsewhere, and the need to rehire or replace people and overhaul idled machinery, etc. etc. once this monumental stupidity is over.
So this is a plea for all you women and men at the top, the ones deciding when to call off the madness, I implore you—get up out of your offices, look around you, go to a small town and talk to some unemployed businesswoman whose local enterprise is now belly-up, understand what the loss of that business means to that small town, and GET AMERICA WORKING AGAIN TODAY! Not tomorrow. Today. Every day is endless pain and worry for far too many.
Here’s how crazy this lockdown is. You folks who decide on this for California? You are costing us trillions of dollars, and you are literally killing people through increased suicide and depression and domestic violence, and it’s all in the name of delaying a couple of thousand deaths. Not preventing the deaths, you understand. Delaying the deaths.
Killing people to delay death, that sounds like a charmingly Aztec plan, it comes complete with real human sacrifices …
Sheesh … it’s not rocket science. Further delay at this point won’t help. End the American lockdown today, leave the schools closed, let’s get back to business.
And yes, of course I’d include all the usual actions and recommendations in addition to leaving the schools closed—the at-risk population, who are those with underlying conditions, particularly the elderly, should avoid crowds. And of course continue to follow the usual precautions—wash your hands; wear a mask at normal functions and not, as in your past, just at bank robberies; only skype or facetime with pangolins, no hootchie cootchie IRL; refrain from touching your face; sanitize hard surfaces; y’all know the drill by now … the reality is we’ll all be exposed to to coronavirus sooner or later. And like the Spanish Flu and Hong Kong Flu and a host of diseases before and after them, after a couple of years the once-novel coronavirus will no longer be novel. It will simply become part of the background of diseases inhabiting our world like the Swine flu and the Bird Flu, all dressed disreputably and hanging out on every street corner in every town waiting for someone to mug …
My regards to all, and my profound thanks to the medical troops who are on the front lines of this war. The wave is about to break in the US, dawn is approaching, it will be over in a month. And hopefully, long before then. these insane regulations will go into the trash, we can stop paying trillions to delay a few deaths a few weeks, and we can get America up and working again.
w.
A REQUEST: If you know someone who makes the decisions on one of the lockdowns, or if you know somebody who knows one or more of the women and men making that decision, please send them a link to this document and ask them to read it and pass it up the chain so that we can all get back to work sooner rather than later.
To facilitate this, I’ve put a copy of this post for anyone to download as a Word document here, and as a downloadable PDF document here. Send a copy to someone who might make a difference.
MY USUAL REQUEST: When you comment, please quote the exact words that you are referring to. Only in that way can we be clear about what you are discussing.
I’m still holding to the view that without having a parallel universe in which to run experiments, you do not have a control and it is unknowable what would have happened absent mitigation attempts.
It’s not valid to compare the actual shape of one state’s curve to the actual shape of any other state’s curve. They are not equivalent test subjects receiving different treatments. Each state has different population density, demographics, etc.
Then there are randomly different initial conditions. I suppose more people travelled between Wuhan and Chinatown in NYC than travelled between Wuhan and West Virginia. But it’s also unpredictably possible that somebody from WV took a trip to NYC to observe Chinese New Year festivities and then returned home asymptomatic and infected a great many people. Another state might have had a patient zero who didn’t interact with many people and who was quickly diagnosed. Every state is different.
As we all acknowledge, there has been nothing approaching a true lockdown. It has been very porous. The degree of compliance is also different for each state. Many people in states with no formal government interventions may be behaving almost the same as in states with the strictest mandates.
I am not willing to criticize Trump or the Governors for attempting to take steps to affect a pandemic in a situation where we do not have adequate information and millions of lives MAY be at stake. After this event provides lessons learned, if the inevitable errors being made now (which can only be confirmed after the fact) are repeated then I will be happy to criticize.
The reduction in numbers of new cases and the reduction in the need for ventilators and ICU beds might have something to do with how well the population is maintaining their distance from one another, and, although I’m not sure how you would do it right now, the number of patients receivng hydroxychloroquine and other treatments for the Wuhan virus ought to be figured into the mix, too, assuming they are actually having a beneficial effect on the disease.
I heard this morning that the virus models are predicated on using an estimation that 50 percent of the population would abide by the social distancing request, and some are saying that the reduction in numbers of new cases in the lastest estimates is a result of Americans doing better than 50 percent.
So there are two things that are not being taken into consideration when doing these calculations.
I’m curious: Does anyone contend that the 2.2 million dead figure is wildly inaccurate if we had done nothing to slow the spread of the Wuhan virus? I wonder what infection rate they were using to get that figure. You know, we still don’t know the real infection rate.
There are a lot of things we don’t know about this virus. People should keep that in mind.
At the very least, 2.2 million is a phantasy number, because it assumes people will go on, business as usual, stepping over the corpses. Long before 200k deaths, people, especially vulnerable people, would certainly modify their behaviors.
“At the very least, 2.2 million is a phantasy number, because it assumes people will go on, business as usual, stepping over the corpses. Long before 200k deaths, people, especially vulnerable people, would certainly modify their behaviors.”
Yup.
The problem is nobody knows how long it would take people to voluntarily figure out
that social distancing was what they needed to do.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/76088/what-was-black-death-and-how-did-it-end
Here is what I was wondering: Let us suppose that everyone in the entire USA reads this article, becomes convinced that the number of deaths and even who exactly will die is chiseled into stone and nothing can change that.
Convinced as in a mathematical certainty…and so everyone just tosses up hands, says “oh, well…what the hey!” and trudges on back to doing exactly what we were all doing last year at this time…just put it out of our minds.
I have a hard time believing that there are not a whole bunch of more people this virus would just love to infect, sicken, and kill…whenever it can swing it.
How many is a whole bunch of more people?
Well, everyone in the country except people who are already exposed…assuming this is like most diseases and no one can get it again anytime soon after getting it and recovering. A fair assumption I think.
Some people no doubt have a strong enough immune system and general constitution that this virus cannot do jack to ’em.
Right now a cruise ship off the coast of Uruguay has 60% of people on board testing positive.
Might that be an approximation of how many people will contract the virus?
It was in the case of the people on that ship.
If so many people get sick that all our hospitals are overwhelmed, it is not just people with COVID who will die but that would have lived with proper care…it is a large number of the people that normally inhabit our hospitals on an ongoing base…in addition to the excess COVID dead.
Or so it seems to me.
Nicholas McGinley April 8, 2020 at 2:29 pm
That is a devious and unprincipled misrepresentation of what I actually said, which was:
“End the American lockdown today, leave the schools closed, let’s get back to business.
And yes, of course I’d include all the usual actions and recommendations in addition to leaving the schools closed—the at-risk population, who are those with underlying conditions, particularly the elderly, should avoid crowds. And of course continue to follow the usual precautions—wash your hands; wear a mask at normal functions and not, as in your past, just at bank robberies; only skype or facetime with pangolins, no hootchie cootchie IRL; refrain from touching your face; sanitize hard surfaces; y’all know the drill by now …”
People may indeed go back to doing what they did last July, but your foolish and failed attempt to blame it on me is most ugly.
w.
I was not trying to be devious, and I am nothing like unprincipled.
I did not say that that conclusion, if it were reached by everyone in the country, is what you have said.
Clearly you did not say that.
But people can misinterpret.
What I did was, and I think I said so, just wonder what would happen IF everyone decided to just forget about the virus…as many people, but not you i do not think, have suggested we ought to do.
If everyone just woke up this morning and forgot about the whole series of events and went back to business as usual…what would happen?
Thought experiment.
I did not say you advocated this.
I am just going to ignore that you have put words in my mouth and accused me of blaming the whole thing on you.
I think you just do not like me, at all, and are not really reading only what I have said.
Thanks, Nicholas. Let me clarify.
You said:
Some people may indeed believe that “the number of deaths and even who exactly will die is chiseled into stone and nothing can change that.” But that’s nothing to do with me.
I didn’t say that, or anything like it. You’re pinning a belief on me without a single quote of what I’ve said. I said nothing of the sort.
Instead, I said of flattening the curve, that it was:
And yes, I get grumpy when, after hosts of requests, you imply that your total misrepresentation is actually my message without quoting one word of mine. I am touchy about being blamed for something I never said, and I never said that.
I’ll let this go. Not productive.
With best wishes to stay well,
w.
Hi Willis,
I am just getting back to this thread after all this time because for some reason my browser was unable to see any threads on WUWT older than two days old, for a while, but that seems to have been resolved.
So, regarding this:
“And yes, I get grumpy when, after hosts of requests, you imply that your total misrepresentation is actually my message without quoting one word of mine. I am touchy about being blamed for something I never said, and I never said that.””
In retrospect, I could have and should have made my point without including this small snippet, ” in the entire USA reads this article” in the first sentence.
This would have left you out of it.
I was thoughtless and careless to include this in my comment.
If I could erase it I would.
You did not say any of the things I mentioned.
I caused you angst by dint of my carelessness, and I want to tell anyone who reads this that I should never have said or implied any such thing.
I was wrong, and I regret it.
I am very sorry for my carelessness and the implications of that carelessness.
It is not my intention to have antagonized you in any way, but this is beside the point that I did, and it was not a result of anything you said.
I apologize to you unconditionally.
I am still trying to figure out what it is that made you say these things, Willis?
Or how on Earth you came to some conclusion I was “blaming” anyone for anything?
I was pretty clear in what I said in my direct comment that was not a reply to anyone.
I said, basically, that it is my view that this whole mess was not ordered from the top at it’s origin, but was at the beginning a series of reactions from various individuals.
I also said I do not think at this point that anyone is waiting for someone to tell them they can go back outside.
I may be wrong about that, but it is what I think.
I am not at all clear of even any theoretical basis anyone could possible credibly blame any of this on anyone!
So for you to make the statements you made, I think you must just have some deeply simmering anger at anyone you perceive as contradicting you.
I have not contradicted you…I do not even accept that what is happening can be modeled.
And all I was even thinking about when I asked the thought experiment question was the idea that once a peak was reached, the ultimate number of deaths is somehow predetermined.
I am not disputing the math, or even saying it is not true.
I am saying that my understanding of how many people get sick and die is completely dependent on how 320 million individuals behave.
And I am no where close to egotistical enough to think I or anyone else, including you, have much influence on how 320 million American citizens conduct themselves.
I think people are focused on not getting sick with something that may turn out to be really incredibly unpleasant.
I have said very little about orders or whether they should be lifted.
What I have done is express surprise at the whole thing.
But more than anything else, what has occurred in my view is that a large number of personal decisions, many of the most consequential and almost all of the early ones, were made by people in charge of various businesses, like the NBA, Baseball, Disney, the big tech companies and banks and such…when they closed their gates and/or told people to work from home.
I said in another comment here, very clearly, that IMO not too many people are waiting for an all clear from anyone to be issued by edict.
I could be wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.
Frankly I do not know whether to be amused or offended at your anger.
Amused that you somehow think you are so influential that this essay, or anyone’s opinion of it, could be construed as determination of what happens next.
You must be very egotistical.
I for one am not even remotely thinking of anything relating to blame or fault, so how could I deviously be trying to pin this whole thing on you?
That s about the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard you say. Clearly you are really mad at me for my comments. Maybe you could tell me why?
And offended…because you have, from where I am sitting, pulled some complete BS out of nowhere and pinned it on me.
Here is what I was responding to:
“I’m curious: Does anyone contend that the 2.2 million dead figure is wildly inaccurate if we had done nothing to slow the spread of the Wuhan virus? I wonder what infection rate they were using to get that figure. You know, we still don’t know the real infection rate.
There are a lot of things we don’t know about this virus. People should keep that in mind.”
Tom said that, and it seems like a sensible question to me.
And I was responding to this:
“At the very least, 2.2 million is a phantasy number, because it assumes people will go on, business as usual, stepping over the corpses. Long before 200k deaths, people, especially vulnerable people, would certainly modify their behaviors.”
Which is what Rich said in response.
I was following up on that and using the result you found, that by some confluence of factors, once the curve has peaked, the final number of deaths can be closely approximated to be double what occurred at the time of the peak. I specifically did not comment on this directly, because it is baffling to me, and yet you cited some stats that seem to confirm it.
So, I agree with what Rich says in his response…people react to what is happening, not to what some politicians are saying.
No one is going to do what I asked in my thought experiment. Or, rather, everyone collectively will not forget and just act like nothing happened.
It was a rhetorical question…is that happened, everyone would have to have either went insanely fatalistic, or else developed a case of TV show amnesia.
It was an IF hypothetical question!
If they did, lots more people would die because the virus does not care what people think or believe…it just infects.
Everyone knows that, and we know we need to protect ourselves.
The world has changed forever, and the Genie will not go back in the bottle.
Pandora’s box is opened, and this is the world we now have, incredible as it is.
Look, I never directly disagreed with you about the Japan cruise ship statistical analysis you did on another article. Like other people have said, I do not know how to do what you do in that regard.
But I was not entirely convinced it was a worst case scenario. It seemed to me some people probably did a very good job of not getting themselves infected. Some might have been dumb and got infected by not being careful. Or maybe no one was dumb, and the virus was spread to them through the air vents, or the food deliveries, etc.
Unknowable, in my opinion.
But now we have this ship off the coast of Urugauy.
New development. New information. Reports are that 60% of the people on the ship are infected. 60%!
Damn!
I am not shocked, and I am not nodding my head saying “of course” either.
I am absorbing it as new information…because I FOR ONE AM TRYING NOT TO THINK I KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT.
Maybe I could guess, but I do not see the point. I would get no satisfaction by being a good guesser at something like that.
Other people want to, fine with me.
I am sitting here figuring I will have more surprises just like I have had plenty already.
But that 60% ship is really something.
It may be a BS stat.
It may be true, or the number may be higher.
I do not know.
Why are 40% not testing positive?
I do not know.
Maybe they are locked up in their cabins.
Maybe they are immune somehow.
Maybe they just have no virus in their nose.
And maybe there is something unusual about that group.
But without assuming anything, we now have an examples which suggests that if left to it’s own course, this virus will infect as many as 60% of humanity.
What is the death rate if that happens?
I do not know.
I know one thing…it is not my fault, it is not your fault, and I am not blaming anything on anybody!
I just erased a final thought that I am sure would have got be banned for life, so that is all I have to say.
tistical thinned skinned buttmunch.
“Does anyone contend that the 2.2 million dead figure is wildly inaccurate if we had done nothing to slow the spread of the Wuhan virus?”
Yes. For example:
Dr. Paul Offit (UPenn Virologist, Vaccinologist, Pediatrician, co-developer of Rotavirus vaccine).
Dr. Knut Wittkowski (epidemiologist, 35 years of modeling epidemics).
The Oxford team that created their own model of the virus.
this whole flattening of the curve stuff got me to thinking about the annual flu cure, which flattens all on it own … my assumption is a combination of herd immunity building up and just plain old geographic friction eventually stops the spread of the virus …
the geographic friction would be roughly the same for flu vs covid … now with the lock downs the travel during covid19 will eventually be felt more than with the flu but it takes weeks and geographic friction is never enough to stop a virus, that takes the herb immunity kicking in …
so as far as herd immunity … it starts building the first day a virus presents itself to the country … and builds over time until its big enough to severly reduce the spread … and the big enough number must be some % of the population …
so if covid19 is so much more infectious than the flu as we are told, then the population will build up herd immunity much faster than the flu … and its herd immunity that peaks a viral spread … the goegraphic friction is constant but never enough to stop the growth by itself … its the herd immunity reaching a certain threshold that nails a virus (thus the bell curves with sharp peaks) …
So the flu peaks in about 3 months … covid19 should peak in less time … we are at about 2 months right now …
I reached the same conclusions as above weeks ago. All of the curves a Gaussian. And normally shaped Gaussian curves have equal numbers on either side of the peak. The curve showing total deaths is the Gompertz curve or Gompertz function, which is simply the integral of the area under the curve showing the peak. All that “Slowing” the problem does is decrease the slope of the two curves. The only benefit is that it reduces the impact on unprepared medical facilities, and thus can, possibly, lower the deaths.
It has been 55 years since I got my degree in Applied Mathematics and went on to joining the Navy and becoming a Nuclear Engineer, SO, some of my conclusions and assumptions may be incorrect.
“The only benefit is that it reduces the impact on unprepared medical facilities, and thus can, possibly, lower the deaths.”
It also gives us more time to develop treatments and vaccines. Medical supply shortages will soon be a thing of the past, and there lots of promising treatments being tested along with new vaccines, and new, much faster methods of mass testing are coming online. All these things, plus lessons learned will help us deal with the Wuhan virus and viruses that come along in the future.
We’ll be ahead of the next pandemic. Now, we just need to get this current Wuhan virus pandemic behind us, and as the president said, there is a little light at the end of the tunnel.
Supposedly, the rescue package Trump and Congress have passed will keep most people and businesses solvent for the next eight weeks, which is about June 1. Maybe by May 1, we can start opening things up. So everyone relax for a couple of more weeks and maybe we’ll get lucky and work ourselves out of this mess. Lots of testing, like in every building can get us back to work, and if drugs like hydroxychloroquine can prevent people from dying if they get the disease, then we should be good to go. Even better would be if hydroxychloroquine can serve as a preventative, which it looks like it does. We’ll know soon, there are several trials going on right now.
Wouldn’t it be nice if you could tell people that if they catch the Wuhan virus, they can take hydroxychloroquine, or something similar, and it will prevent them from dying, in most cases. Then people could walk around with confidence and not worry about being infected.
Of course, we have to guard against wishful thinking, but this looks like the direction we are heading to me. There’s no doubt we can produce enough testing equipment and tests to do everyone in the U.S. And I have heard nothing but good things about hydroxychloroquine. Trump says there are no bad reports he’s seen. Every day we see more positive results from hydroxychloroquine.
Dr. Oz is asking anyone who is taking hydroxychloroquine to treat their lupus to email him at DrOz.xxx if you have contracted Wuhan virus while taking this medication. He is trying to find out if hydroxychloroquine will prevent a person from being infected by Wuhan virus.
Dr. Oz and several federal agencies are looking into the medical databases and are trying to find the number of people who are currently taking hydroxychloroquine, and then looking to see if any of them have contracted the Wuhan virus.
One New York Hospital Director said his hospital was giving hydroxychloroquine to every patient that tested positive for Wuhan virus. I’ll bet you all those hospitals are doing that, especially when they are hearing about the good results, and there are a lot of medical people who are taking it in hopes it will prevent them from being infected. There’s a lot of hydroxychloroquine going around!
It couldn’t be that easy, could it? Maybe. Let’s hope so. We’ll know before too long.
The economy will bounce back quickly. Ko will lose his life, he will not get it back.
Why is such optimism about the economy acceptable while any optimism about this virus is treated like heresy?
Willis-
I certainly agree that we should end the lock down, and you have done a good job of showing why.
However, I think you are being too hard on doctors. A doctor’s measure of success is lives saved, period. Years ago when I was in college, my machine design prof said “We can teach anyone to design [here insert any machine you want designed], an engineer’s job is to design it within a budget. Doctor’s aren’t taught this. They are taught save lives at any cost. Thus you are right, because of his training, Dr. Fauci only looks at the benefit (save lives) side, he is hardly aware that there is “cost” side.
Our politicians make the mistake of listening to the wrong people. They listen to the doctors. So their actions are designed to save lives at any cost. They should be listening to economists.
Doctors work within a budget, its called triage
Just an observation:. The high population density cities of NY and Milan have death counts of about 600 per million residents. In places outside of these the count is about 125 per million residents.
A counter to this:. Japan is has very high population density cities but has not experienced high death counts. Japan has done much better than S Korea so far and with little testing.
I could use some help in understanding these observations.
Just a thought, but although densely populated, Japanese culture tends to be very formal compared with more high touch cultures. Also extremely conformist. If masks are prescribed, masks WILL be worn. They have a saying that the nail that sticks up will be pounded down. Western cultures are far less conformist or compliant. Cleanliness is also highly valued. My thought is that culture will be the main differentiator.
Korea is far more like Japan than China in these respects.
Japanese are notorious germophobes.
Italy
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(19)30328-5/fulltext
If this had happened 40 years ago you would not even know there was a virus. The internet is 100% responsible for this. Forty years ago headlines would have been >severe flu in some european countries this winter season> Again I reiterate that about 170000 people die per day mostly old and half with cardiorespiratory, influenza and flu problems apart from traffic accidents. Willis is 100% correct. This is just a normal flu virus pumped up by the internet to a terrible pandemic and multiplied by human ignorance/stupidity as affirmed by Einstein. BTW this virus will infect everybody as it is airborne transmitted probably by birds animals insects and humans all over the world. By flattening the curve you are not allowing natural immunity to take place which is actually the purpose of theses viruses to protect our lungs from future disease! Death rates are complete within the range of normal coronavirus flu viruses every year. In fact if you look at general mortality rates they probably have fallen for this year as there are no more accidents ect.
“This” happened about 100 years ago without the Internet. They called it the “Spanish Flu.” The death toll was pretty high.
This is thank God, nothing at all compared to the Spanish Flu. Orders of magnitude less death now.
But to be fair, with 1917-18 medical standards, who can be sure.
I’m very surprised that there has been no analysis of the benefits of contact tracing. Those countries, South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan that put a lot of effort into this exercise seem to have better results and returned to normality much sooner.
Any truth to the rumor that deaths (stats) due to (attributable to) ‘simple’ pneumonia are down?
The number is very much down, but, realistically, cases of pneumonia haven’t changed much and have simply been given a new name – COVID-19.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUyBMdvWAAEZAwX?format=jpg
re: “cases of pneumonia haven’t changed much and have simply been given a new name – COVID-19.”
That’s the point.
2020 worldwide todate as of about 20 minutes ago. To put things in perspective:
3,509,758 Communicable disease deaths this year
88,100 Deaths from COVID-19
3,509,758 Seasonal flu deaths this year
2,055,033 Deaths of children under 5 this year
11,492,188 Abortions this year
83,566 Deaths of mothers during birth this year
41,698,340 HIV/AIDS infected people
454,495 Deaths caused by HIV/AIDS this year
2,220,459 Deaths caused by cancer this year
265,193 Deaths caused by malaria
1,351,547 Deaths caused by smoking this year
676,200 Deaths caused by alcohol this year
289,922 Suicides this year
364,960 Road traffic accident fatalities this year
Source; https://www.worldometers.info/
re: “2020 worldwide todate as of ”
Really, just looking for year after year pneumonia stats, and icisil nailed it with his graph. You should take a look at it above … it shows quite a “nose dive” for pneumonia this year, leading credence to the hypothesis that ‘simple’ pneumonia causes of death are now being classified as Covid-19.
I see that as a new apex predator invading the habitat of vulnerable prey. The lion supplants the hyenas. The hyenas have a bad sales quarter.
It doesn’t mean that nothing is different Even if total deaths are comparable to prior years, it doesn’t tell us everything because the mitigation could be suppressing deaths of vulnerable patients.
My nod to your argument though would be that we know that under appropriate conditions (just 2 yrs ago), the vulnerable population could easily be 80k or more. We’re thankfully not seeing that yet.
I think the points you are making are the same as those advising the Swedish government on how to deal with this virus. I think we could have contained this virus if like New Zealand we had stopped all travel to and from the rest of the world but now it is in the UK we cannot now contain the spread of the virus perhaps we can slow it down so that the NHS is not overwhelmed but it does raise the question why we cannot provide the resources to treat everyone as I believe Sweden is proposing to do. I received a letter from 10 Downing Street a few days ago saying that we must slow the spread of the virus to stop the NHS being overwhelmed by the number of cases.
The UK NHS can’t cope with a normal winter far less a virulent Flu or CV19. Seriously ill people being treated in corridors or waiting in A&E for hours. So flattening the curve is vital to prevent total collapse and to maintain the myth of how good the NHS is. It also hides the lack of investment in modernisation.
In France, as of this morning, the French government had raised 650 million € in fines for breaking the lock down by individuals. The fine for being out without an attestation is 135€. Anew attestation is needed for each foray.
I just think this is a case of being caught with your pants down around your ankles.
As noted, flattening the curve does not decrease deaths, it just spreads them out. The answer “was” to have a plan and supplies ready for such a pandemic. Even ol GWB warned about it. The “Savior” depleted what was stored and didn’t bother to change the toilet paper roll. The current admin didn’t even have time to think much about it, as about all it could focus on was defending itself against a laundry list of false accusations.
The sociopath in me says, just let nature take its toll. Put out the warning, let everyone know what’s coming, and then step back and let it unfold as it will eventually unfold anyway. Sure, there will be a lot of people who weren’t long for leaving anyway take a “relatively” early exit. Then, there will be the stupid who need to be culled from the gene pool. What will remain is the resistant population, making the virus less of a threat from any second wave. At that point, we take the 2 Trillion in economic aid and refill the supply closet for the next time.
Yes, we were caught unprepared. Some countries more than others. That is why many actions were taken with an abundance of caution that begin to look to most of us like they won’t have been cost-effective. But I believe that those possibly mistaken actions were taken in good faith and were prudent.
Also, if you look to any country like Italy, Spain, or the UK, or a state like New York, it doesn’t seem reasonable to me to say that there have not been some deaths due to overloading the system or that those deaths would not have been more numerous had there been even higher numbers of patients. It’s unknowable, but a reasonable assumption. Those are not deaths delayed a few weeks. They are early deaths potentially robbing people of years.
If deaths from all causes end up looking very comparable to previous years, even that won’t be a strong proof that lockdowns were unnecessary. Greater awareness, less interactions by vulnerable people may well have limited what could otherwise have been a much higher toll.
Unfortunately our society often acts on the basis of precedents. To the extent that this event has included wild overreaction oblivious to cost-benefit, we may be locking in to a new normal. Much like in the climate wars, it is impossible to prove a negative. Despite Willis’ attempts, he won’t be able to prove definitively that we don’t need to lockdown as the new standard response to any epidemic.
If we let this event lead to a national identity card required to obtain a mobile phone, and mandatory tracking “for our own good” as in Korea, I fear that the potential for a creeping panopticon police state will be very real. I certainly do not trust our politicians with that power.
“As noted, flattening the curve does not decrease deaths, it just spreads them out.” That depends. If in the absence of interventions, hospitals would get overwhelmed (in terms of beds, or ICU beds, or–most likely–respirators), then flattening the curve would definitely have decreased deaths, because there would not be enough beds/ ICU beds/ respirators for those who need them. This has played out in other countries, and it might play out in some US states. Whether it actually would happen in any particular area is hard to predict; it depends on numbers that are hard to quantify. (To this day, we probably don’t know how many people in China were actually infected/ got symptoms/ got severe symptoms/ were hospitalized/ died, and that’s about the only country where this has been going on long enough to get past the peak.)
At a guess–and this is only a guess–without social distancing and other preventative measures, US hospitals would run out of resources in areas that are densely populated, like New York City, but not in areas that are predominately rural, like Nevada or West Virginia. (If you haven’t spent time in West Virginia, you probably don’t realize how much the geography imposes distancing all by itself.) But don’t quote me on that, it’s only a guess.
In countries that are proud of their healthcare, the virus feels great. In countries where healthcare is weak, people don’t leave the house.
This historical factoid springs up in my convoluted mind: Drs Ancel Keys/Fauci, both bullies, never responsible. Keys for the “food pyramid” via Sen McGovern’s Ag Dept condemnation of the good fat, causing the current diabesity syndrome. Fauci for HIV/AIDS tunnel vision and ignoring other duties, and now being under Bill Gates’ thrall (‘Global Vaccine Action Plan’ ).
I think you have to be a little careful in how you are discussing the number of projected deaths in California and the cost impact of the shutdown on the economy. The IMHE death projections are what will occur with mitigation of spread measures in place. I searched long and hard to find anything regarding what they projected without those measures. The only place you can find any reference to that is in the technical paper under the publications tab. There they only reference in the introductory paragraphs that millions of deaths were projected without mitigation of spread measures. They should be specific about what they project in the absence of mitigation. But presumably whatever the economic cost is for a state or the country as a whole, would need to be taken as the cost of the saved lives, not the ones that would still be lost in any events. And as you point out, I don’t think people understand that the mitigation measures aren’t saving lives, they are only deferring spread and deaths, in the absence of overwhelmed health resources.
This, in my judgment is the biggest flaw in the use of the models. People can make up any number of lives lost without mitigation and then claim they saved the difference between that number and whatever the actual number does turn out to be. In Minnesota for example, the Governor justified his shutdown by saying the model they used said 74,000 deaths would occur in Minnesota without the order. Of course it later turned out that 50,000 would occur with it. Either number is simply absurd.
It is also important to realize that IMHE is only forecasting first wave and by first wave they mean only 3% of the population is infected. To find that information you have to look in the FAQs. So you would have to keep the social distancing measures in place indefinitely to maintain low death rates. I think their model is defective in a variety of ways, but their communication is even worse, making it hard for people to understand what the value of mitigation is in terms of saved lives and not creating a model that runs out til we reach stability. It has given people the impression that 60,000 lives or whatever the current number is, are all that will be attributed to the virus, when 97% of the population is still susceptible in the model. I have blogged about these issues pretty extensively on my website.
Ignorance is a great excuse to use massive stimulus to combat ……other policy in the name of saving lives. Hey, at least they didn’t weaken social security finances or Medicare yet. Well they did but not directly in the stimulus bill this time.
All of the mitigation steps listed influence the spread of the virus through the population and changes the rate of the wave of infection. The consequence of that infection is then so many hospitalizations, so many ventilators and so many deaths as a percentage of that total.
The factor that I have not seen discussed regarding the model’s poor performance is the effectiveness of an established treatment protocol in reducing the percentages of the infected population that require the steps to the hospital or ventilator or death. An effective early treatment that reduces the progress of the disease and restricts the severity of the disease in a significant percentage of the patients would be expected to reduce the number of hospitalizations necessary. Is that part of what we are seeing in the IMHE model updates? Is it accounting for an effective treatment? Isn’t this the change to trend you would expect if a treatment is effective?
Could the advent of the wider use of Hydrochloroquine with zinc be a key part of this change to the modeled trends?
What is interesting is that no post treatment studies have been presented. With and without Hydrochloroquine . Seems simple enough if one has access to the admittance and discharge files and the treatment. This would require real work that could save lives with no endangerment other than spending very little money to see some direct results.
“An effective early treatment that reduces the progress of the disease and restricts the severity of the disease in a significant percentage of the patients would be expected to reduce the number of hospitalizations necessary. Is that part of what we are seeing in the IMHE model updates? Is it accounting for an effective treatment? Isn’t this the change to trend you would expect if a treatment is effective?”
We don’t yet have enough information to know if we have an effective treatment. It looks like treatments are having some effect but we don’t have any numbers yet. The official trails only started this week, and I doubt there has been a survey of all the medical people who have been taking hydroxychloroquine or of all the doctors outside of hospitals that are prescribing these drugs. It only takes about 10 days for these drugs to be effective in appears, so there should be plenty of anecdotal evidence out there, but it just has not been brought together in one place yet.
And it is possible that social distancing alone is bringing down the numbers. I think the computer models were based on 50 percent of Americans abiding by the social distancing rules, so if more than 50 percent are following the rules, that should bring the initial numbers down.
One good thing about it is we are going to have a whole lot more information about all of this in a few weeks.
re: “We don’t yet have enough information to know if we have an effective treatment. ”
I give you the “European trial” here, the cumulative numbers ‘rolling forward’ underscore the effectiveness of Dr./Prof. Raoult’s hcq et al treatment regimen:
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/covid-19/
It has gone beyond the point of being ridiculous now, on this date, to state “We don’t yet have enough information to know if we have an effective treatment.”
Also overlooked are the so-called “anecdotal” reports of the hcq regimen used by a number of physicians in this country.
IF you’re looking for ontological certitude in this matter there are TOO MANY unique factors that affect ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL PATIENT for a ‘trial’ to be absolutely 100% certain of the efficacy of hcq et al, yet, the desired result, patient recovery, DOES seem to occur AND at a level (of certainty) far exceeding the odds of a simple ‘coin flip’ …
“It has gone beyond the point of being ridiculous now, on this date, to state “We don’t yet have enough information to know if we have an effective treatment.”
I think so, too, but a lot of people won’t be convinced (Dr. Fauci) without some numbers. Fortunately, we should be getting these numbers soon.
If I learned I was infected, I would be looking for the nearest supply of hydroxychloroquine, ASAP. 🙂
re: ” think so, too, but a lot of people won’t be convinced (Dr. Fauci) …”
Dr Fauci’s job (and other CDC/FDA/NIH etc “lifers”) is to say “no” (and usually some amount of “prejudice”, IOW, with no possibility for appeal (See W.C. Fields as in “Go away boy, ya bother me …”)) Otherwise, one could simply “hard wire” the input he makes (the decisions he makes) to the input of the decision-allowing ‘AND’ gate to a logic “high” (or True state) and bypass the need for him to make a decision; a bureaucrat’s job is to say “no” on the first go-round (and usually thereafter) until the ‘evidence’ (literally) threatens (overwhelms) his (the bureaucrat’s) job, pension and/or appearance (technical competency) in public.
But you need to give your phone GPS data to the government to make that work.
Israel has deployed an app that gets around this. Download app to your phone, tracks your movements, but data stays on your phone. Someone gets infected. Data from THEIR phone is anonymized, uploaded to the cloud, then downloaded to all other phones. The app on your phone then figures out if you have been in contact with someone infected, where and when. But neither you nor the government knows who.
re: “Israel has deployed an app that gets around this. Download app to your phone, tracks your movements, but data stays on your phone. ”
Doesn’t bypass “periodic registration” (NEEDED to update the HLR with what cell site your phone is ‘camped’ on so a ‘call attempt’ (ringing) can be made) which is a transparent (to the subscriber) function ; a CDR (call detail record: a reg attempt, which is “metadata”) is created for these actions.
Thanks Willis.
I wish I knew a way of getting Jay Inslee, Governor of Washington State, to read this.
The Life Care Center of Kirkland – in Jay’s backyard (so to speak) – was past tragic before anyone noticed. A state of indecisive agitation, dithering, followed. Then this deadly abnormal situation became the template for the local “model” of what was happening in the State, or what was about to happen.
The official response has “flattened” the economy.
The officials, however, still get paid.
Have they never known folks on the margin, poor folks?
“Be clear, however, that this is just a delaying tactic. Flattening the curve does not reduce the total number of cases or deaths. It just spreads out the same amount over a longer time period. ”
No, no, and no… I do not understand why perfectly smart people have so much trouble with this one simple point.
Flattening the curve *WILL* reduce deaths. If the number of infected that require critical care exceeds the capacity of the health system to provide it, then you will get excess deaths that *could* have been prevented. If you have enough data you can even project the excess or prevented deaths. It’s basic statistics.
By flattening the curve you allow more of the patients that require critical care to actually receive it (assuming the critical care capacity would have been exceeded). You also, as you mentioned, allow more time to study the disease and prepare treatments for it.
While it is likely true that roughly the same number of people will contract the disease, you reduce it’s mortality.
In the case of a disease like Cov-ID19 where it is possible and even likely for it to have trouble spreading in warmer weather, it is actually possible that flattening the curve will reduce the number of people that catch the disease, at least in this current pandemic. If it declines over the Summer, it will likely re-emerge next Fall – but again we have bought time so there is at least a chance we can better fight the disease and reduce deaths even further.
NOTE: I am not arguing with you over the effectiveness of the measures taken, only over the principle of flattening the curve. I do think measures have helped, but I don’t have data to back up my hunch and neither does anyone else. We intervened which means there is no good baseline to compare the current numbers to. You can compare them against other countries, but then just like using proxies you risk many variables being intermingled with the data you are using.
Robert of Texas April 8, 2020 at 12:30 pm
I agree with your “IF” … but in many cases, your IF is not true. Take California, the example I provided. No amount of flattening is needed.
And even when it is, the number of people saved is minuscule compared to the cost. You’re making Fauci’s mistake, thinking that any amount of intervention to save a few lives is always worth it. Consider that according to the statistics used in the model, over half (30) of the US states are like California—the will have NO shortage of ICU beds. So in those thirty states, your claim is wrong—flattening the curve will do nothing more than delay the deaths.
And where this is not the case? It is still a COST/benefit analysis. New York is the worst. Given that a) we have little evidence that western style self-quarantine actually flattens the curve, and b) if it flattens it by say 10% it MIGHT save a few hundred lives, or it might not, they might die anyway … we have to make a difficult decision—is it worth shutting down the entire New York economy including Wall Street on the CHANCE that it might save a few hundred lives?
I say no way.
w.
Willis, one aspect of “flattening” is that it should give some time to get new therapies in place that may have an affect on total deaths in the “First Wave”, and, hopefully more so in the “Second Wave”. I just noticed that the latest IHME projection for US deaths has been reduced to about 60K. Both Drs. Fauci and Birx have commented that the model estimates vary as new data is input but how accurate any of the outcomes are, yours, the models, the CDC, the White House Task Force, FEMA or anyone else, will only be judged when the dust has settled.
Please explain how, other than COMPLETE isolation, Complete LOCKDOWN, the multi-various self quarantine, with myriads of “Essential” workers this can lower the TOTAL numbers?
Both of my sons are Essential Employees, Both of my Daughter-in-laws are also. Fire, police, paramedics, medical service drivers, cab drivers, Gas stations, drive throughs, drug stores, clinics, doctors offices, banks, auto-parts, buses, subways, restaurant pickup, maintenance service, ad infinitum. Eventually someone is going to touch someone who has it – it just takes longer. Just which of the above are you going to lockup in their house.
I fear that you are missing the point . This engineered crisis is a 2008 all over again. It’s a bank bailout in disguise.
Three observations.
1. Flattening the curve saves lives IF it prevents the health care system from getting overloaded. All the extraordinary capacity additions for NYC would not be possible to repeat everywhere. And we already saw what happened in northern Italy when it did get overloaded.
2. The related debate about dying with or because of COVID-19 isn’t very useful, because in most cases those deaths would have come years later rather than now. The new NY analysis yesterday says 63% of deaths are over 70, and 55% had hypertension and 35% had diabetes. Most people over 70 don’t die from hypertension or diabetes.
3. Your analysis of the cost to the California economy is in my opinion far too simplistic. I looked up the composition of the California GDP by sector. Wiki has a nice chart from the BEA. biggest sector is Finance, Insurance and Realestate. Stuff deferred, not lost. Government, not lost at all. Manufacturing, maybe deferred, but not lost. Agriculture, not lost. And so on.
There are only two sectors that will not bounce back with only minimal net losses (e.g. pent up demand) after say a one quarter closure. Those are “Entertainment, recreation, hospitality, and food service (restaurants)” at about $120 billion, and some portion of “Professional and business services” at about $660 billion, for example beauty salons and barbershops but not tax preparation (just delayed a quarter), or legal. Say half is vulnerable (probably too high).
Then the cost math is 0.25 (at worst one quarter lost) * (120 + 660/2) $112.5 billion, not $900 billion. If the President suggests reopening May 1, then the hit is 45 days rather than 90 and the cost is ‘only’ $61 billion compared to lives saved.
But that is still far too high because the CARES act is exactly intended to bridge these vulnerable sectors over this period via stuff like PPP and SBA grants, further reducing the potential cost hit.
I think the President has got the optics just about right. Piles of bodybags in refrigerated trucks outside NYC hospitals (happening) while not doing anything would be a political nightmare. He chose to bend the curve while invoking the DPA to increase medical equipment supplies, which takes time to produce. And, by end of April we will know much more about remdesivir and chloroquine/zinc therapies. My thinking is the country will be opening May 1 for two reasons: curve sufficiently bent, and the therapies work (Dr. Zelenko’s letter about his 200 at risk positive patients–0 hospitalizations, 0 deaths– is pretty convincing, albeit not to Fauci).
Rud Istvan April 8, 2020 at 12:41 pm Edit
Diabetes is actually the third leading cause of death in the US … and old people are not different.
So you’d be OK if we simply deferred your and everyone else’s salary for a year? That’s merely “deferred, not lost”, no big deal as you claim … but I doubt if the majority of folks would sign on for the plan.
As to “Government, not lost at all”, we are currently paying every government employee who is not working their full salary for doing nothing. How is that not money flushed down a rathole and lost forever? Paying money and receiving nothing of value in return is not a loss on your planet? Really?
w.
Willis, I projected 45 days, at worse 90 days. NOT a year, as you now posit.
And you apparently agree with my sarcastic comment about Cali Government economic consequences, NONE, by your agreed definition of paid money flushed down the toilet for nothing in return. BUT. that was also true before C0vid-19, not just after. Much the same as my comment observation–useless keep getting paid, an ongoing cost without a benefit.
I think we shall continue to disagree. BTW, you shoulda produced the BEA Cali GDP analysis if you wanted a credible fact rebuttal of my economic critique, none of which you addressed by segueing to a fictional ‘year’ of salary loss.
I totally agree with your analysis Rud and it would be how most of us in the middle ground view it. I am also pragmatic that these are Emergency Power laws in most countries and you could not change those powers while in effect. Post lockdown I suspect most will take a look at how the powers were used and if they were appropriate and at that time Willis and those who believe this is all wrong should then invest energy to progress the argument.
“Post lockdown I suspect most will take a look at how the powers were used and if they were appropriate and at that time Willis and those who believe this is all wrong should then invest energy to progress the argument.”
I hope those who vigorously question the current virus computer models, will, after this is all over, use their expertise, and spend as much energy in debunking the computer models that gave us the bogus, bastardized global surface temperature record.
In the past, some of our posters just meekly accepted the global temperature charts as being legitimate. They make their comparisons using these bastardized charts as though they represent reality. Maybe the controversy over the virus computer models will light a fire under some of these complacent people and make them take a second look at the bastardized global surface temperature record.
They could start out by asking why unmodified, regional temperature charts don’t resemble the bastardized global surface temperature record at all. The regional charts show we are not experiencing unprecedented warming. The bastardized global surface temperature charts show we are experiencing the hottest temperatures in human history. It’s time to throw the bogus global surface temperature record in the trash. Silence from people who know better, is not helpful.
And this isn’t aimed at any particular person. A lot of people could fill this bill. And a lot of people could do some pretty good debunking if they were so inclined.
MN was moved to 5/4. My guess longer. Political suicide if deaths start rising.
Those who claim the economy will “bounce back” are ignoring the time value/factor of money.
The economy flows like a river in time. Stopping the flow then starting it again does NOT replace the volume lost when the river was plugged. Production lost is production lost.
Regarding the Decision Makers and their motivations, it might be useful to point out to them that their Public Retirement Funds just took an enormous hit. If the mandates were unfunded before, then they are deeply unfunded now with zero chance of ever being fully funded no matter how high future taxes are jacked.
Dear Goobers, teachers, SEIU drones, etc.: you just lost your retirement. No soup for you in your post-work life. You’re busted flat. Sorry Charlies. And there’s nothing you can do about it now. Printing funny money won’t save you. You plugged the river, and your future dried up. Nice going, dummies.
Dear Mr. Eschenbach,
I love your essay but have some questions. Does California print its own money? How are the tax receipts going? Will there be enough $$ by May to pay the state employees? Will they be paid in script, again? What about bullet trains to nowhere? How many CA municipalities will be doing a Stockton (or a PG&E) in the coming months? Are their mayors aware in the slightest? Are the sheeple?
I want to quote Henry Pool – April 8, 2020 at 11:21 am – above: “Willis, the problem with what you propose is summed up as follows….. The economy will recover from this, but the dead people won’t.”
With the extreme infectivity of this brand new virus, and many severe infections and deaths up front — more than medical care could handle in hot spots — immediate actions to halt the spread is very wise – and humane to all oldsters and grandparents and great grandparents. Slowing that curve bought time.
Also we now have a cure – hydoxycholoroquine+zinc+azrthomycin and some other candidates (sheep dip for one, I think). We also are finding out that ventilators might not be wise. Better to concentrate oxygen. We couldn’t have found out this vital information — along with saving many lives — without stopping non-essential functions for a limited time.
I think we could/should be up and ready to work around May 1 — and we may be a stronger country for the way we — through leadership from the current administration — have carefully gone about the task. I hope there’s lots of “you’re fired” for those “experts” who were (gleefully) so wrong (either university types or long-term govt employees). They thought they had us where they wanted us.
Hi Willis and all.
I posted this hypothesis on 21Mar2020; coincidentally, it is similar to Willis’ proposal. While I am less certain than Willis that we are correct, I am not seeing much evidence that we are wrong.
I am certain that Willis is correct about contagion in schools – ask anyone about when their kids started going to playschool – or the plague ward, as I used to call it.
Some interesting questions:
1. Why are TOTAL WINTER DEATHS ‘way down this winter? See https://www.euromomo.eu/index.html
Shouldn’t this very-scary coronavirus have increased total winter deaths?
2. How is it that ~one hundred thousand deaths from coronavirus are scary, but millions of Excess Winter Deaths every year, caused in part by green hysteria and fuel poverty, are not?
COLD WEATHER KILLS 20 TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS HOT WEATHER
by Joseph D’Aleo and Allan MacRae, September 4, 2015
https://friendsofsciencecalgary.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/cold-weather-kills-macrae-daleo-4sept2015-final.pdf
FEARLESS CONCLUSION: TOTAL WINTER DEATHS DO NOT MATTER, BUT COVID-19 DEATHS ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. (sarc/off)
Regards, Allan
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/03/21/to-save-our-economy-roll-out-antibody-testing-alongside-the-active-virus-testing/#comment-2943724
This brief data analysis is far from comprehensive, but here are my preliminary conclusions:
CORONAVIRUS – STRONG CONTAINMENT (3% INFECTED IN S. KOREA) VS POOR CONTAINMENT (21% INFECTED ON THE CRUISE SHIP).
1% FATALITIES OF THOSE INFECTED IN BOTH CASES. (Note: Both 1% figures are moving targets.)
ON THE CRUISE SHIP, ALL DEATHS WERE PEOPLE OVER 70 YEARS OF AGE.
REPORTEDLY DEATHS TYPICALLY OCCURRED TO PATIENTS WITH POOR HEALTH AND POOR IMMUNE SYSTEMS.
REPORTEDLY YOUNGER INFECTED PEOPLE OFTEN HAVE MILD OR NO SYMPTOMS.
LET’S CONSIDER AN ALTERNATIVE APPROACH, SUBJECT TO VERIFICATION OF THE ABOVE CONCLUSIONS:
Isolate people over sixty-five and those with poor immune systems and return to business-as-usual for people under sixty-five.
This will allow “herd immunity” to develop much sooner and older people will thus be more protected AND THE ECONOMY WON’T CRASH.
If tests prove positive, use chloroquine and remdesivir or other cheap available drugs ASAP as appropriate.
Best, Allan
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/05/how-to-analyze-and-not-analyze-coronavirus-deaths/#comment-2957322
CONCLUSION: TOTAL WINTER DEATHS DO NOT MATTER, BUT COVID-19 DEATHS ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. (sarc/off)
Update of my previous post:
Data for Europe is now up to end of week 13 – to ~31Mar2020.
Note the downturn in deaths for under-65’s. and the upturn for over-65’s.
Not only has this year’s total winter mortality declined substantially for all ages, it has even declined substantially for those over 65 when compared to previous years. Repeating, TOTAL WINTER DEATHS ARE FAR LOWER THAN IN RECENT YEARS. We will learn from this full-scale experiment.
It seems ironic that when we wrote about HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EXCESS WINTER DEATHS due in part to high energy costs caused by false green climate hysteria, nobody listened, but now we are now prepared to shut down our economies due to A FEW THOUSAND DEATHS allegedly due to Covid-19, WHEN TOTAL WINTER DEATHS ARE ‘WAY DOWN.
CONCLUSION: TOTAL WINTER DEATHS DO NOT MATTER, BUT COVID-19 DEATHS ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT.
This data now extends to the end of Week 13, which corresponds to March 31, the end-date for the calculation of Winter Mortality and Excess Winter Mortality. We should also recognize that the Covid-19 flu is not over yet, and mortality figures are continuing to increase.
https://www.euromomo.eu/index.html
More data here:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
Regards, Allan
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/120664672/coronavirus-swedens-unique-approach-to-fighting-the-pandemic?rm=m
Reportedly, Sweden is not following the full lock-down model and has only moderate precautions for Covid-19. It will be interesting to see how Sweden’s full-country-scale test compares to the full lock-down, kill-the-economy model of the USA, Canada, etc.
I think we will learn much about the greater picture of contagion with this exercise. We will also see some changes is social practices.
Customary greetings like face-kissing and even handshakes will probably become much less commonplace after Covid-19 has passed.
It is interesting to me that Total Winter Deaths are ‘way down this year, despite the alleged Covid-19 pandemic.
It is also interesting that here in Calgary hospitals have deferred elective surgery to make way for the anticipated flood of Covid-19 patients, and as a result hospitals and staff are not at all busy – yet.
The big questions remain:
Is Covid-19 is really a catastrophic pandemic, or a huge over-reaction to one-more-seasonal-virus.
Was the full lock-down that has harmed our economy and financially destroyed so many young people and small businesses really necessary, or was it like swatting a fly on a glass table… with a sledgehammer?
We should know much more in a month or two. Fasten your seatbelts. Faites vos jeux.
Are Covid-19 deaths being exaggerated? How widespread is this practice?
Are deaths from other causes being attributed to Covid-19?
Is this why Total Winter Deaths have not increased this year?
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/04/09/physician-state-sen-claims-feds-pressuring-doctors-to-inflate-covid-19-cases-reveals-7-page-doc-906488?
PHYSICIAN/STATE SENATOR CLAIMS FEDS PRESSURING DOCTORS TO INFLATE COVID-19 CASES, REVEALS 7-PAGE DOC
A physician from Minnesota claimed this week that federal officials are encouraging medical officials to incorrectly attribute all related deaths to COVID-19, even in cases where the coronavirus clearly played a minimal (if any) role in the deceased’s passage.
As evidence, Dr. Scott Jensen, MD, who also happens to be a Republican member of the Minnesota Senate, cited a “guidance” issued by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Vital Statistics System (NVSS).
“Last Friday I received a 7-page document that told me if I had an 86-year-old patient that had pneumonia but was never tested for COVID-19, but some time after she came down with pneumonia we learned that she had been exposed to her son who had no symptoms but later on was identified with COVID-19, then it would be appropriate to diagnose on the death certificate COVID-19,” he explained in an interview with station KXJB.