Sorry Greta, India needs more coal to power growth

From The Times of India

October 13, 2019, 2:00 am IST SA Aiyar in Swaminomics | India | TOI

Greta Thunberg, the 16-year old Swedish girl who lectured the United Nations on climate change, is being touted as a possible Nobel Prize winner. She believes she and her white Swedish teenage friends have to save the world from us terrible oldies who created the oil and coal industries.

She will be appalled by the plea of India’s coal secretary, Subhash Chandra Garg, that India must urgently expand its coal production from 600 million tonnes a year to a billion tonnes per year to meet basic energy needs. Yet Garg is right. Thunberg made headlines by sailing to the US in a solar-powered-ship to avoid using fuel oil. Does she have any idea of the enormous electricity used to produce the solar cells in her ship?

India is a lower middle income country. Sweden is among the richest. Despite the green sermons, Sweden’s annual per capita carbon emissions are 4.5 metric tonnes, higher than India (1.7 metric tonnes), Pakistan (0.9 metric tonnes) or Bangladesh (0.5 metric tonnes). South Asians can double their carbon emissions without matching Sweden’s prodigality.

Widespread activist attempts to stop all oil and coal production are hypocritical. A total switch to solar and wind energy is impossible since these are produced only intermittently when the sun shines and wind blows, maybe 25% of the year on an average. For the rest of the time, India needs coal-based electricity. Maybe new electric storage technology will ultimately change that, but today India needs massive coal expansion for thermal power.

Current carbon emissions are just the tip of the iceberg. More than 90% of historical carbon emissions since the industrial revolution are the cumulative emissions of rich western countries and Japan. The share of developing countries, including India, is a tiny fraction. Sorry Greta, the problem is not that grown-ups like me have ruined your future but that rich Swedes are still emitting more carbon than coal-using Indians.

Economist Kirit Parikh once framed India’s policy as being “we will never emit more carbon per capita than the West”. This would allow India to raise its emissions six-fold or more without being worse than others. Modi has embraced renewables massively. Even so, for round-the-clock power, India will have to create much more coal-based capacity. If the West develops viable carbon-capture technologies, India will happily adopt those.

Full article here.

HT/Willie Soon

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Kamikazedave
October 13, 2019 6:17 pm

Remember. Don’t let facts interfere with what you want to believe.

Reply to  Kamikazedave
October 14, 2019 4:10 am

Indeed, it was a sailing boat (i.e. wind), not a solar powered boat.

Reply to  Hans Erren
October 14, 2019 8:37 am

I’ll betcha a cold beer that there was a “fossil fuel” burning electrical generator on board that “sailing boat” for providing heat, lighting, cooking and communications.

Sunny
Reply to  Hans Erren
October 14, 2019 9:33 am

Hans Erren

The boat had a diesel generator on board. While in the usa, she has been uaing fossil fuels daily. The eight people who sailed the boat there flew back, and four other flew back to the usa to bring the boat back to europe… How much co2 is the Co2 seeing child really save 😐 plus she uses a phone which is heavyly dependand on fossil fuels

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Hans Erren
October 14, 2019 9:44 am

That must count as solar?

John Endicott
Reply to  Hans Erren
October 14, 2019 11:52 am

Wind and/or solar is acutally the least relevant (in regards to “carbon footprint”) of her little cruise. Putting aside the “carbon intensity” of the production of that carbon-fiber and resin ocean faring vessel. Instead of Greta taking one trip by aircraft from Europe to America (or saving the trip all together and address the UN via skype), the crew of her ocean vessel all flew back from NY (let’s assume they all boarded the same plane, to the same destination) and another crew flew into NY in order to sail the boat back across the ocean (again, let’s assume they all came from the same location and flew on the same plane). That right there is (at a minimum) double the carbon foot print (two plane flights instead of one, more than two if any of the crews took separate flights) just to bring the CO2 seeing princess to NY than would have been had she just boarded a plane herself.

KcTaz
Reply to  Hans Erren
October 14, 2019 4:34 pm

The article does not say it’s a solar powered boat.
It said,
“Does she have any idea of the enormous electricity used to produce the solar cells in her ship?”
As for the “green” boat–
Let them sail yachts: Why Greta Thunberg and the environmental elite hate you
https://www.rt.com/news/465501-greta-thunberg-hates-you/
“…However, the young proselytizer will not cobble together a boat from upcycled oil drums and driftwood. Instead she’ll be traveling on the Malizia II, a 60-foot racing yacht.
Its crew are also a far cry from the ragtag band of crusties you might imagine. The Malizia II will be captained by renowned yachtsman Boris Herrmann and Pierre Casiraghi, grandson of Monaco’s late Prince Ranier III and actress Grace Kelly. The boat, too, was once named the Edmond de Rothschild, after the financial baron and founder of a fleet of racing yachts. Its construction cost upwards of €4 million…”
How much CO2 do you suppose was emitted in the building of that boat? I suspect large quantities.

John Endicott
Reply to  KcTaz
October 15, 2019 10:33 am

Indeed. It’s made of carbon fibre – a material with a “carbon footprint” 14 times higher than that of steel. so considerably more than zero carbon. But put aside the emissions of making the vessel, the fact that the crew is flying back to Europe and a replacement crew is flying in to New York to sail the boat back makes Greta’s little cruise have a much larger “carbon footprint” than had she simply booked a flight for herself. How dare she!

John Endicott
Reply to  Hans Erren
October 16, 2019 9:02 am

While it is a sailing boat, it also happens to be outfitted with “solar panels and underwater turbines” to ensure it leaves “no carbon footprint” according to news reports. for example, from everyone’s favorite rag:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/14/greta-thunberg-sets-sail-plymouth-climate-us-trump
While the wind propels it, the vessel generates the power for lighting and communication through solar panels and underwater turbines

Komrade Kuma
Reply to  Kamikazedave
October 16, 2019 5:43 pm

Greta Thunberg, the actress/activist aka Greta Garbage

Kenji
October 13, 2019 6:18 pm

So then, Greta … the earth will cease to exist now in only 2-years, eh?

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Kenji
October 13, 2019 7:08 pm

No, it’s 8.5 years. She wants to be able to learn to drive before driving is banned.

HotScot
Reply to  Patrick MJD
October 13, 2019 11:30 pm

Patrick MJD

What’s the point of banning driving? It’s too late anyway.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  HotScot
October 14, 2019 1:45 am

I was trying to think along the lines that “She will never know what driving is!” is (Never know what snow ‘coz climate change) given in Sweden you can’t start to drive until you are 18, so only 6.5 years left (Because we have only 8.5 years left if we continue consuming “carbon budget” and fall over the tipping point of no return) for her assuming she passes when she is 18 and starts to drive. But I think I failed to be funny there…

HotScot
Reply to  Patrick MJD
October 15, 2019 2:54 am

Patrick MJD

Or perhaps it’s my sense of humour failure. 🙂

Scissor
October 13, 2019 6:28 pm

India could increase energy production and displace coal via fracking like another country has.

commieBob
Reply to  Scissor
October 13, 2019 6:46 pm

Probably not with existing technology. link

MarkW
Reply to  Scissor
October 13, 2019 7:25 pm

Does India have any places where fracking would be useful?

BCBill
Reply to  MarkW
October 14, 2019 10:26 am

There is all too much “fracking” in India already!

Ken Irwin
Reply to  Scissor
October 14, 2019 12:34 am

Carbon Based Energy = Lifestyle

Today we lead a lifestyle equivalent to owning 200+ slaves – this lifestyle grew from our ability to be more productive. This was initially accomplished by using animals to provide power (horses, oxen etc. and later water wheels and windmills) but only really took off with the advent of the industrial revolution and the use of coal to generate steam-power and subsequently electricity providing us with an economical method of distributing that power.
Beyond that the use of oil and gas have provided us with transportable energy.

The availability of cheap energy allows us to be 200 times as productive than we could accomplish without it.
Think about this for a moment, every time you switch on a light (so you can work in the dark), use any form of machinery or motorized transport, buy any manufactured goods, or even take a hot shower or a hot meal (even a cold one for that matter) etc. etc. you are using energy – this is the energy that drives our lifestyle.

Without it we will live in the dark, cold, hungry, filthy, smelly and shivering. An unhealthy and unhygienic lifestyle guaranteed to severely shorten your lifespan.

A life that Hobbes described as “nasty, brutish and short.”

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/06/speculative-climate-chaos-v-indisputable-fossil-fuel-benefits/

To illustrate this, Africa derives some 50% of its energy from renewables (but that includes mostly burning wood and dung) and equates to the most impoverished place on the planet.

In 1971, China derived 40 per cent of its energy from renewables and the bulk of its population lived in abject poverty. Since then, it has powered its incredible growth almost exclusively with CO2 “unfriendly” coal, lifting a historic 680 million people out of poverty. Today, China gets a trifling 0.23 per cent of its energy from unreliable “renewables” wind and solar.

Past history suggests that the degree of renewable energy employed is an accurate barometer of poverty.

{I concede that this is a grossly unfair analogy even though it is true – for data to date.}

Do you for one moment believe that China could have accomplished this phenomenal feat of social engineering without using coal ?

India is doing much the same thing…..

India which has suffered an electrical energy shortfall for decades finally managed to produce a surplus in 2016 – it did so with coal fired thermal power stations and will continue to do so.
Indian projected coal consumption of 1300 million tonnes of coal equivalent (Mtce) in 2040 will be 50 percent more than the combined demand of all 34 countries that form the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), including the United States and Canada.
Wowzers !

ttps://www.masterresource.org/cornwall-alliance/first-time-history-india-creates-surplus-energy/

And just to top off this lunacy, the carbon tax exempt third world tends to be rather lax in its clean air / pollution control requirements – so we end up exporting our energy intensive jobs at a cost of greater air pollution, not less – I mean real pollutants such as SO2, NOx etc. – not CO2 which in spite of all the demonising propaganda isn’t a pollutant – its plant food !

History will judge the current crop of scientifically ignorant politicians rather harshly when the climate scam becomes universally recognised as one of the costliest blunders in human history – both economically, environmentally and cost in human lives lost to this phantasm.

Most of the developed world is committing economic suicide with their energy policies which simply shift CO2 intensive (energy intensive) industries to the third world – China in particular.
This in no way changes global CO2 output but does result in the developed world effectively exporting these jobs to the third world, and this at far greater cost to the environment in terms of real total pollution.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/14/unbelievable-pollution-in-china-yet-the-us-is-the-baddie-at-copenhagen/

One only has to look at the closure of steel manufacturing worldwide whilst China’s share of global steel manufacturing capacity has risen to 80% of world’s total capacity by 2016.

The Western World’s fetish obsession with the climate change phantasm is going to drive us all to the poorhouse!

You can have cheap energy or you can have cheap & impoverished labour – making energy more expensive will effectively force labour prices and standards of living down – the laws of economics are inexorable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3278597/Our-idiotic-leaders-obsessed-green-sabotaged-Britain-s-steel-industry-writes-DOMINIC-LAWSON.html

I’ll be damned if I’m going to live a 18th century lifestyle in the 21st century to satisfy the fetish needs of alarmist “Greens”.

From Paul Driessen “For countless millennia, our ancestors struggled to survive amid deprivation and backbreaking dawn-to-dusk labour, often on the brink of starvation – with the bulk of humanity living little better than their domesticated animals. Average nasty, brutish and short, life expectancy hovered in the low thirties.

But then, suddenly and miraculously, in barely two centuries, health, prosperity and longevity began to climb. First coal, then oil, then natural gas paved the way, providing the fuels for transportation, communication, refrigeration, electricity and other incredible technologies that improve, enhance, safeguard and save lives. Incomes increased eleven-fold. Mass die-offs so confidently predicted by Malthus and Ehrlich never materialized. In fact, global life spans more than doubled, and today billions of people enjoy living standards that even kings and queens could not dream of 120 years ago.”

Is this the “damage” done by fossil fuels ? – If so give me more !

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Ken Irwin
October 14, 2019 1:51 am

“Ken Irwin October 14, 2019 at 12:34 am

To illustrate this, Africa derives some 50% of its energy from renewables (but that includes mostly burning wood and dung) and equates to the most impoverished place on the planet.”

You have to break the temptation in comparing Africa with China or India etc. China and India are not continents. Africa has many countries within the continent. Compare individual countries in Africa with China or India (No comparison, yet). Ethiopia is building the largest hydrodam in the whole of Africa, makes Aswan look like a toy, and that has some downstream countries a bit worried. Ethiopia now controls water downflows of both the White and Blue Nile rivers. That has a few backsides twitching.

Gerry, England
Reply to  Scissor
October 14, 2019 5:55 am

Why?

Rocketscientist
Reply to  Scissor
October 14, 2019 10:24 am

How exactly are per capita carbon emissions measured? The per capita part is self explanatory, but what numbers are combined to establish total carbon emissions?
I will conjecture that India, due to its impoverished nature, is generating far more CO2 via residential cooking and heating than would an efficient coal power plant producing the equivalent power, but are these values being included in the total CO2 emissions values? The population will burn what ever it has on hand to keep warm and eat.
Merely addressing large scale sources misses the vast majority of the outputs.

October 13, 2019 6:37 pm

“She believes she and her white Swedish teenage friends have to save the world from us terrible oldies who created the oil and coal industries”

The climate movement is racism painted with moral purpose.

https://tambonthongchai.com/2019/03/06/sdg/

Peter
Reply to  Chaamjamal
October 13, 2019 7:18 pm

In Australia, there is one, new Indian owned coal mine. There are several being developed by Australians, Chinese and others. Green activism with demonstrations, threats, sabotage and shareholder activism is targeting, only the Indian mine.
Australian green activists are openly racist.

Komrade Kuma
Reply to  Chaamjamal
October 13, 2019 9:59 pm

The little princess has no moral clothes, no intellectual clothes and no scientific clothes only her little kiddy nightie.

But isn’t she cute when she throws a hissy fit, clenching her fists and stamping her foot? So was my daughter when she was 4.

michael hart
Reply to  Komrade Kuma
October 14, 2019 3:47 am

As Hobbes said “nasty, brutish, and short”.

Bill Powers
Reply to  Komrade Kuma
October 14, 2019 10:20 am

Komrade, you have a perverse sense of the word cute. Where I come from hissy fits are described on a scale from ugly to possessed by evil spirits that only a loving parent could tolerate before calling for an exorcism.

a right-minded lefty
Reply to  Chaamjamal
October 13, 2019 10:04 pm

“…if additional funding is available, its use is best determined according to the urgent needs and priorities of the poor countries receiving the funds and not according to the social and environmental concerns of the rich countries providing these funds…”

And yet, as you indicate, “White man’s burden”, colonialist/missionary/resource-absconding efforts, have always been driven by the concerns of the rich countries “providing the funds”.

I bet that in some candid moment the authors of the Agenda 21/Sustainable development goals coalition (the oldest fortunes behind petrol/chemicals/pharmaceuticals et al) would admit that their murderous campaign is more eugenically classist than racist though.

James Corbett did a most informative series on this topic called: “Why Big Oil Conquered the World”:

https://www.corbettreport.com/bigoil/

also

What is Sustainable Development: https://www.corbettreport.com/what-is-sustainable-development/

commieBob
October 13, 2019 6:39 pm

I’m not sure what the virtue signalling developed nations can do to prevent India’s increased consumption of coal.

How big does a country have to be before it can become pretty much self sufficient? China is working on it. Brazil has been working on it for years. How self sufficient could India be?

India has an advanced tech industry. For instance, it has a bunch of countries that make cell phones. link As far as I can tell, those brands are mostly sold in India.

If India is self sufficient in most things, it can’t be pressured by trade sanctions. In other words, nothing the developed nations can do could pressure India to curtail its coal consumption.

Loydo
Reply to  commieBob
October 13, 2019 10:25 pm

From that article:
“More than 90% of historical carbon emissions since the industrial revolution are the cumulative emissions of rich western countries and Japan. The share of developing countries, including India, is a tiny fraction.”

I wonder why that bit was omitted?

“nothing the developed nations can do could pressure India to curtail its coal consumption…”

Hmm, one thing could do is to take responsibility for that 90% and pay India and other developing countries who are being asked to sacrifice their turn at accessing decades of cheap fossil fuel.

icisil
Reply to  Loydo
October 13, 2019 11:26 pm

You make it sound like CO2 in the atmosphere hangs around forever. It doesn’t. And I wonder why you omitted this:

“More than 90% of historical technological advances and developments since the industrial revolution, that have helped lift developing countries out of slavery and poverty, were brought about by the cumulative advances of rich western countries and Japan. The share of developing countries receiving the benefits of that largesse, including India, is a tiny fraction.”

Loydo
Reply to  icisil
October 14, 2019 1:28 am

“You make it sound like CO2 in the atmosphere hangs around forever.”
No I don’t.

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 6:54 am

The CO2 put out 30 years ago is long gone from the atmosphere.

HotScot
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 1:00 am

Loydo

And subject ourselves to penury?

Why should we do that, because you project a virtue signalling guilt complex?

Since the industrial revolution began we have never lived more peaceful, prosperous, healthy lives.

In early-modern times, child mortality was very high; in 18th century Sweden every third child died, and in 19th century Germany every second child died. With declining poverty and increasing knowledge and service in the health sector, child mortality around the world is declining very rapidly: Global child mortality fell from 19% in 1960 to just below 4% in 2017; while 4% is still too high, this is a substantial achievement.https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

But you would have the wealthy west regress. How many children do you have?

No thanks. But then I don’t believe for a nanosecond that mankind’s 0.0012% concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere makes any meaningful difference to the climate whatsoever.

Loydo
Reply to  HotScot
October 14, 2019 1:51 am

“Since the industrial revolution…” In the developed world yes, the countries that have had the benefit of decades of cheap energy and have outsourced the environmental costs to the future.

“But you would have the wealthy west regress.” No of course not. I am one of the fortunates to have lived most of my life at this time in the developed world where I have lived like only royalty could have dreamt of 100 years ago. Who wants to volutarily abdicate that? No one thats who. There in lies the horns of the dilemma: how to phase out fossil fuel AND watch half the world’s population get their share of the good life.

You can sweep it all under the carpet by claiming humans aren’t causing any problems but that puts you squarely in the D-team.

But you believe that mankind’s CO2 can green up the world’s forests right?

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 4:39 am

China produces more steel in less than two years than the UK has done since the industrial revolution. I imagine the same is true for TV’s, computers, mobile phones, and virtually anything else. India won’t be far behind, so that argument doesn’t really stack up for the future with o ly the USA giving China and India a run for their money.

A C Osborn
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 5:34 am

Are you calling NASA liars about CO2 greening the world?
You arn’t suggesting that NASA could lie are you?

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 6:55 am

There are no environmental costs to CO2.
The other environmental costs were localized and either are, or are being cleaned up in the West.

George Daddis
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 7:38 am

It is only a dilemma if someone accepts the first half of your sentence:

There in lies the horns of the dilemma: how to phase out fossil fuel AND watch half the world’s population get their share of the good life.
I for one, don’t.

And your moral argument is the same silly Progressive meme that somehow I must feel guilty, and pay for the collective sins of my ethnic ancestors (even though they were peasants in central Italy). I don’t buy that one either.

John Endicott
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 11:31 am

There in lies the horns of the dilemma: how to phase out fossil fuel AND watch half the world’s population get their share of the good life.

It’s only a dilemma if you are under the delusion that more plant food is a bad thing. Hint: it’s not. And since it not, there’s not valid reason to “phase out fossil fuel”, particularly at a time when there is no viable replacement for it (other than nuclear, but those same people pushing for the phasing out of fossil fuel consider nuclear verboten).

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 3:31 pm

If you phase out fossil fuels, not only will half the population not get to see “the good life”, the other half that already has the good life is going to lose it.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 4:23 am

or we could stop the crap re co2 and not pay anyone and let the asian etc mobs do what they need to progress?
helping with cleaner tech if asked

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 6:53 am

CO2 is a net positive, China and India should be paying us.

LdB
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 10:29 am

You have to laugh at the lefties and the concept that we are going to pay developed nations anything, good luck with that 🙂

Mind you that is the same group of fools that actually believed developed nations were going to stop using fossil fuels, the majority of people cared, emission were going to go down (FYI China’s emissions grew by 4% already this year).

October 13, 2019 6:45 pm

Please stop featuring Greta Thunberg.
The fact is ——–there is no Greenhouse Effect !

We have all been told that the Earth is warming because of the Greenhouse Effect that reflects the Earth’s emitted heat back towards the Earth surface.

If that was so then that same effect would be reflecting the incoming Sun’s heat back out into space before it even reaches the Earth surface. The result would be cooling of the Earth NOT heating as there is twice as much heat energy (infrared) arriving from the Sun as there is radiating out from the Earth’s surface.

Mention of this brings replies such as “short wavelength in, long wavelength out”. This is because the UN IPCC First Assessment Report, 1991, stated at page xiii, under ‘What natural factors are important’:
“ One of the most important factors is the greenhouse effect, a simplified explanation of which is as follows Short-wave solar radiation can pass through the clear atmosphere relatively unimpeded But long-wave terrestrial radiation emitted by the warm surface of the Earth is partially absorbed and then re-emitted by a number of trace gases in the cooler atmosphere above”

I believe this statement to be deliberately deceptive in order for the UN to achieve their aim of One World Socialist Government. Nowhere in the climate literature have I seen any mention of the Greenhouse Effect relative to the incoming Sun’s energy of which 51% is in the infrared spectrum. Why no one has contradicted the statement over the past 30 years is beyond me but there it is.

Editor
Reply to  Bevan Dockery
October 13, 2019 7:09 pm

Bevan – Apologies in advance for short reply but I’m short of time: Yes there is a greenhouse effect, yes there is mainly shortwave in longwave out, but from there onwards the science has been badly corrupted.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
October 14, 2019 4:37 am

Mike,
51% of the Sun’s energy is in the infrared, that is, infrared is the dominant input (by a small fraction).
If all of the Earth’s radiant energy at 288 deg.K ( 5.205 x10^-6 J/m^3 ) was to be absorbed and re-radiated by the atmospheric gases, less than one third may be directed towards the Earth surface, namely, less than 1.735 x10^-6 J/m^3. Of this only seven tenths could be absorbed by the surface due to the 0.3 albedo, that is, 1.215 x10^-6 J/m^3, and only one quarter could effectively increase the surface temperature, namely that part of the spectrum with a wavelength shorter than the 10.06 micron peak wavelength emitted by the Earth (we all know that only hotter sources, ie shorter wavelength, can increase the temperature of an absorbing body, don’t we ?)

That amounts to an effective back-radiation of 0.304 x10^-6 J/m^3, almost one seventh of the supposed 2.006 x10^-6 J/m^3 from the 33 degree greenhouse effect making that effect not physically possible, especially after taking account of the small proportion of radiative gases in the atmosphere.

bwegher
Reply to  Bevan Dockery
October 14, 2019 9:24 am

Solar IR is “shortwave” ie SWIR, 0.7 to 4 microns
Earth IR is “longwave” ie LWIR, below 4 microns
Two different things, with different properties.

Reply to  bwegher
October 14, 2019 5:42 pm

bwegher
Isn’t that splitting hairs ? The third most prominent absorption band for CO2 is at 2.68 microns so why ignore that band from the argument? Surely the comparison made by the UN IPCC is between short wavelength light and long wavelength infrared, ie longer than 0.7 microns?

For a source at 288 degrees Kelvin, the Earth, Planck’s law determines that the 2.68 micron band has an energy density of 5.016 x 10^-11 Joules per cubic metre. For the radiant energy from a 5772 degrees Kelvin source at the Earth’s distance from the Sun as source, the 2.68 micron band would have an energy density of 7.104 x 10^-8 J/m^3. That is a factor of 1416:1 more back-radiation of the Sun’s energy relative to the Earth’s for the 2.68 micron band, contributing to cooling of the Earth if the Greenhouse Effect exists.

As there has not been cooling as the CO2 concentration has increased, there cannot be any Greenhouse Effect. How else do we explain the fact that the comparison of satellite lower troposphere temperature relative to CO2 concentration shows that the temperature is independent of the CO2 concentration. Furthermore, the rate of change of CO2 concentration is determined by the temperature so it is impossible for the CO2 to cause temperature change as a rate does not determine a level. For example, a rate of change of 2 ppm in CO2 could be from a temperature of zero to 2 degrees or 34256 to 34258 degrees.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Bevan Dockery
October 13, 2019 7:27 pm

Maybe you don’t fully understand radiation into gases and absorption of radiation by surfaces.

Reply to  jorgekafkazar
October 14, 2019 4:39 am

jorgekafkazar,
Are you suggesting that the incoming Solar photons know that they must not be absorbed by the radiative atmospheric gases and must deviate around them in order to reach the Earth’s surface rather than being reflected back into space or is it simply that there is no Greenhouse Effect ? Could it be that all of the energy absorbed by the radiative gases eventually becomes kinetic energy of motion of the dominant atmospheric gases ?

Mike
Reply to  Bevan Dockery
October 13, 2019 8:54 pm

I believe it is called global dimming. Not considered or mentioned in quite awhile????

Reply to  Mike
October 14, 2019 4:40 am

Mike, are you referring to the IQ level of the human population ?

DaveS
Reply to  Bevan Dockery
October 14, 2019 9:28 am

Given the antics of Extinction Rebellion and swallowers of the CAGW meme generally (including over-anxious teenagers) we are certainly witnessing peak stupid.

William Kirchgassner
Reply to  Bevan Dockery
October 13, 2019 9:34 pm

No greenhouse effect-tell that to the arctic ice that is crumbling away.

Reply to  William Kirchgassner
October 14, 2019 4:42 am

William Kirchgassner, how can a heat source at zero or less degrees Celsius, that is the Arctic ice sheet, reflected onto that ice, cause it to melt ?

jtom
Reply to  William Kirchgassner
October 14, 2019 6:24 am

William, as you no doubt have read many times, the Earth has warmed naurally, i.e., no manmade greenhouse effect, since the Little Ice Age. That warming can not be dismissed as a cause, perhaps the cause, of any shrinkage of the ice cap. I am sure you have also read that the ice caps did not always exist before man lit his first fire. We have little understanding as to why they come and go. It has even been postulated that the ice caps are the lingering aftermath of an asteroid hit that sent Earth into a deep ice age, and it is now recovering to its natural state.

Once temperatures are high enough to begin melting the ice, they need not go any higher; it need not get warmer.

All of this is to say that with our level of understanding, the state of the arctic ice is very weak evidence of anything in particular, especially the greenhouse effect.

MarkW
Reply to  William Kirchgassner
October 14, 2019 3:33 pm

Arctic ice has been increasing for the last 6 years.
The only thing crumbling away is the credibility of the alarmists.

CD in Wisconsin
October 13, 2019 6:51 pm

“..Greta Thunberg, the 16-year old Swedish girl who lectured the United Nations on climate change, is being touted as a possible Nobel Prize winner…”

Greta did not win the 2019 Nobel Peace Prize. It was won by the prime minister of Ethiopia. I frankly don’t really understand how Greta’s scolding and sermonizing is doing much of anything for the world peace effort.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/11/ethiopian-prime-minister-abiy-ahmed-wins-2019-nobel-peace-prize.html.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
October 13, 2019 7:15 pm

Yes, an Oscar would be more appropriate.

Voltron
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
October 13, 2019 7:57 pm

The ethiopian president actually did do something peace related (as in stopped the war between ethiopia and eritrea). Good to see the award doesn’t just go to useful idiots lol

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Voltron
October 13, 2019 9:51 pm

He did in deed. I have been to Axum, which is a short trip from the border. The president in 2005 banned people from texting others over mobile networks to prevent “gatherings”. He was very much unliked and pretty much a dictator. And IIRC went AWOL for a while and then turned up dead somewhere.

There is a lot of progress in Ethiopia, especially since they dropped their experiment with communism.

If ever you get the chance to go there, please do. It really is quite a remarkable country.

Clarky of Oz
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
October 13, 2019 8:24 pm

One media outlet here in sunny Australia, claimed the Nobel Peace Prize Committee actually snubbed Greta.

Yes SNUBBED her. How dare they?

For my view, they awarded it to a gentleman who has actually achieved something along the lines of peace. You know like stopping a war.

RobbertBobbert
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
October 13, 2019 8:42 pm

CD
According to Nobel’s will, the Peace Prize shall be awarded to the person who in the preceding year “shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses”.
Miss Thunberg does not qualify for a nomination given the condition above.
Like most establishment awards the role of the Activist is getting the rewards as it is all about being entrenched in the Woke activist conformity club.

ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 7:02 pm

from your constant referencing Thunberg you must be scared sh.tless of her.

MarkW
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 7:28 pm

It really is interesting how you actually believe you understand how real people think.

lou divincenzo`
Reply to  MarkW
October 13, 2019 7:56 pm

Good response….hahaha

Editor
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 7:28 pm

She is another dumb would be planetary savior, who like all the others are full of baloney.

Her numerous hypocrisy points are easy to spot, how do you ignore them?

Abolition Man
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 7:37 pm

Just trying to point out the ignorance and hypocrisy of those support and agree with her. It is much more fun to poke fun at the idiots who actually believe that a 16 year old, with self admitted mental and emotional problems, would be capable of teaching anyone anything about some very complicated science. Maybe parents should start giving their kids whatever they want for dinner,too! The old Ice Cream Thrice-a-day Diet.

Craig from Oz
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Did you just assume my fear triggers, ghalfrunt?!

HOW DARE YOU!

Scissor
Reply to  Craig from Oz
October 13, 2019 8:22 pm

Beat me. How dare you?

RobbertBobbert
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 8:57 pm

ghalfrunt
I am terrified at the mere mention of her name. It reminds me that Sweden…her home nation…gets 40% of its electricity from Nuclear power…and I know that all of them are gonna explode and annihilate Sweden.
And take the rest of us out too…with Acid Rain…Nuke Winters…of 100 Fahrenhieut for months on end…Summer days hitting 50c at midnight and starving Godzilla like climate refugee Polar Bears escaping the totally ice free Arctic and causing havoc and feasting upon the hapless, soon to be extinct, Antarctic Penguins.
Only Greta as Queen of the World and Extinction Rebellion as her standing army can save us….though raising a standing army is against the rules of The Nobel Peace Prize.

Loydo
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 10:31 pm

Help is at hand…

icisil
Reply to  Loydo
October 13, 2019 11:45 pm

A helpline like that is desperately needed for sufferers of carbonphobia, the debilitating and self-hating condition that causes people to live in irrational fear of an invisible, live-giving trace gas.

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 6:32 am
George Daddis
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 7:49 am

As hard as it is for me to believe, there’s a chance that a national network actually thought that adults pushing back on Greta’s nonsense were the irrational ones.

Now, THAT’S crazy.

Hokey Schtick
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 11:10 pm

Gretaphobic.

icisil
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 13, 2019 11:55 pm

Actually, it’s more like that feeling I get in my stomach when constantly barraged by the media with the likes of people like Nicki Minaj and Lena Dunham. The best way I can describe it is “blech”.

fred250
Reply to  ghalfrunt
October 14, 2019 1:15 am

for you ghalfrunt

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6094450120001

Start at about1:30 minutes

( Liberals down here means Conservatives)

Global Cooling
October 13, 2019 7:49 pm

Wind and solar require large areas of land that does not exist in India. CO2 levels in the atmosphere are not cumulative result of emissions of (industrial countries). Carbon cycle is more complex than that.

Loydo
Reply to  Global Cooling
October 13, 2019 10:51 pm

“CO2 levels in the atmosphere are not cumulative result of emissions of (industrial countries).”

No one will disagree with you there GC, at least not around here it seems. Um, but out curiosity, where do you think the 600Gt of CO2 went?

icisil
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 12:13 am

A large part of it has gone into the increased greening of the earth.

Loydo
Reply to  icisil
October 14, 2019 1:58 am

Yeah and a fair bit has gone into the ocean, but there is still enough left over to increase atmospheric concentration to 414ppm. More that enough. In other words about half is till up there and in terms of human lifetimes – thats where its staying.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 5:55 am

Up where? You do know the atmosphere is REALLY REALLY REALLY big, bigger than all water on this rock, yes?

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 6:51 am

We prefer percentages here Loydo, so we say forty-two thousandths of one percent. Yes, I rounded it up. Hmmm? No, “concentration” doesn’t sound right when we put it like that.

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 7:00 am

The half life for CO2 is a couple of decades or less.
People sure don’t live long in what ever world you come from.
PS: 414 is still less than a tenth what the levels were for most of the earth’s history.

Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 10:21 am

Indeed, at 420ppm [rounded up, like the Shark did], to the nearest one-tenth of one percent, there is zero CO2 in the atmosphere [per the Mauna Loa readings, at least].

Not a lot of the XR folk know that!

Auto

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
October 14, 2019 6:59 am

Where did it go? Mostly into plants.

markl
October 13, 2019 7:52 pm

The child as a propaganda piece will soon fade. LA Times has been running multiple full page ads every day using children as the literal poster child to hype gender equality in pay. Who’s paying for this? How long before people find out?

Scissor
Reply to  markl
October 13, 2019 8:26 pm

I see that Steyer officially jumped (paid his way into) the race.

MarkW
Reply to  Scissor
October 14, 2019 7:03 am

If the US adopts even a fraction of the Green Garbage, he’ll easily make this investment back.

MarkW
Reply to  markl
October 14, 2019 7:02 am

The reason behind what little “gender inequality” there is, lies in the choices of individual employees.
Men on average, work more hours and in jobs that either more strenuous or more dangerous.
Women on average, choose jobs that offer more flexibility and give them the opportunity to take months, sometimes years off from their career.

John Endicott
Reply to  MarkW
October 15, 2019 10:48 am

Indeed. when you do an apples to apples comparison (i.e. same job title, years of experience, industry, location, etc.) “gender inequality” pretty much vanishes (i.e. the “gap” becomes smaller than the margin of error).

John Endicott
Reply to  MarkW
October 15, 2019 10:55 am

And indeed, think about it. If I’m a business owner and I have two equally capable applicants to choose from, why would I ever choose one that would cost me more money to hire? So if the “gender gap” was as real and as big as claimed, no rational business owner would ever higher a male when then can hire a female and save hugely on wages and benefits resulting in bigger profits for their company.

J Mac
October 13, 2019 8:49 pm

Anybody else see a facial resemblance between illegiteratii reGretable Thunberg and the enigmatic Mona Lisa?

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  J Mac
October 14, 2019 5:52 am

It’s almost as if her eyes are following you…

J Mac
October 13, 2019 8:54 pm

If Santa sent reGretable Thunberg 10,000 lumps of coal for Christmas, for being suuuucch a selfish, ignorant bad girl, do you think she would ‘get the message’?

Trevor laBrooy
October 13, 2019 9:48 pm

I personally dislike everything about Greta Thunberg and all those feeding her rubbish ideologies. The media have really caused the problem, by publicising all the crap floating around and the sooner all this ceases, the better for all of us.

Dodgy Geezer
October 13, 2019 10:09 pm

“…Sorry Greta, India needs more coal to power growth….”

Um. Completely irrelevant.

I watched some Extinction Rebellion interviews on the BBC. The interviewers pointed out that the scare stories touted by the activists were not in fact true. The activists just smiled.

They pointed out that extreme language works. It’s not meant to persuade any of the ‘little people’, the ‘sheep’. What it does is give the activists a seat at the political table.

Politicians are used to lies and exaggeration. They do it all the time. They are not interested in the truth – they are interested in how many followers you can get out on the streets. If you can get a lot, politicians listen to you. And will put your plans for a Socialist World on their agenda.

No one is interested in whether the Indians or Chinese are burning more coal. They are interested in headlines. Which is what they are getting…

Toto
October 13, 2019 10:11 pm

What is Greta’s position on nuclear? Sweden is shutting down some older reactors, and the added wind power doesn’t fill the loss. It is still about 40% nuclear.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-20/swedish-nuclear-plant-s-tiny-hole-nobody-has-seen-halts-revival

India has 22 reactors in 7 power plants. That article (from timesofindia.indiatimes.com) never once mentions nuclear, although it does mention solar.

Kiwi gary
October 13, 2019 11:01 pm

Considered purely professionally, the PR company running Thunberg has done a very good job.

Notwithstanding increased coal power, India hs also placed a block order for half a dozen of Rosatom’s 1200 MW nukes.

NoBullying
Reply to  Kiwi gary
October 14, 2019 7:59 am

Your mistake is that there is no PR company behind Greta Thunberg.

Reply to  NoBullying
October 14, 2019 10:24 am

And the Ursids do not defecate in forested areas.

There we have it.

Auto

Sunny
October 14, 2019 1:21 am

This is incredible, how can 102 million people be more “dirty” for the earth then India, pakistan, bangladesh, and south asia. I cantam wait for the day that the co2 seeing puppet disappears back in to her little hole in the wall. Her followers need to learn some facts and to stop being sheep

Sweden’s annual per capita carbon emissions are 4.5 metric tonnes, higher than India (1.7 metric tonnes), Pakistan (0.9 metric tonnes) or Bangladesh (0.5 metric tonnes). South Asians can double their carbon emissions without matching Sweden’s prodigality

leitmotif
October 14, 2019 2:45 am
Serge Wright
October 14, 2019 3:53 am

Whilst I have no issue with the buring of coal or atmospheric CO2 , I do have an issue with the debate on emissions per capita versus total emissions in terms of this blame game against western countries.

What is totally obvious when it comes to CO2 emissions is that rich western countries that embrace capitalism get an added population brake as a bonus. The brake works due to people needing to balance the number of children versus the costs of raising those children which are born by themselves and generally families choose to limit themselves to 2 children on average, resulting in no net growth.

However in a socialist communist state such as China where the state provides all housing and services, it is more beneficial to have more children as you will be provided with a bigger house, get extra income and have more children to look after you in old age. The result is a balooning population and massive emissions. Ironically, the green solialists want to replace capitalism with communism to cure the smaller emissions of western countries. In western countries that provide social assistance for the unemployed it is a noted statistic that single mothers and unemployed families have more children for exactly this reason, resulting in large unemployed ghettos on the outskits of cities. Socialism is a proven cause of more people and more emissions overall.

In India the population ballooned due to the system of subsistance agriculture, where families saw more children as extra labour to work on the farms. As this system is gradually replaced with modern capitaism the birth rates will fall, but the damage is already done and it will take centuries to restore balance.

The basic take out is that population controls emissions and western capitaism is the best cure for population management.

October 14, 2019 4:54 am

A lot of grumpy old man that haven’t understood much of the Greta phenomena here. Can’t do much than laugh at you.

Berndt Koch
Reply to  Hopes
October 14, 2019 8:07 am

How can you be so mysoginistic.. there are grumpy old women here too. How dare you!

Bruce Cobb
October 14, 2019 5:06 am

The article is total nonsense, being written within the framework that “CO2 is bad for the planet”, when it is just the opposite. The salient point, about India needing more coal is a giant red herring. Of course they do, so then, why have they signed on to the Paris Sham-Wow? Because they are total hypocrites, and because there is no downside for them, that’s why. These are all the sort of asinine things they bring up at their COP gabfests.

MLCross
October 14, 2019 7:46 am

“…Sweden’s annual per capita carbon emissions are 4.5 metric tonnes,…”

I think that per capita carbon emissions are a poor metric. The poorest most baren country’s have low per capita emissions but nobody wants to live that way (well, I know warmunists wouldn’t mind if WE lived that way. Not them, of course) . I’m thinking that carbon emissions per unit of value produced would be a much better indicator of efficiency. I mean, IF you’re actually concerned about such things.

ResourceGuy
October 14, 2019 8:40 am
ResourceGuy
October 14, 2019 11:10 am

Sorry Greta/AOC

Early Blizzard Wallops Vulnerable Crops
Farmers who planted late after rainy spring face new threat from early freeze
WSJ Oct 14

ResourceGuy
October 14, 2019 11:38 am

Sorry Greta needs to be a new tagline….

China new energy vehicle sales drop 34%
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/86557429-da89-3487-8cf1-e9bd54a76208/china-new-energy-vehicle.html

Cosmic
October 14, 2019 11:48 am

If this little child doesn’t look like the anti-Christ, I don’t know who does. And I am agnostic on the whole God thing.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Cosmic
October 14, 2019 12:12 pm

Surely you don’t mean Sweden’s contribution to the world…..after making war machinery for the Third Reich?

Bruce Cobb
October 14, 2019 12:05 pm

She’s headed to Alberta, Canada next.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/greta-thunberg-alberta-climate-change-swedish-1.5319889
Lots of oil and gas being dug up there. How dare they!

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
October 14, 2019 1:07 pm

Let her walk across Alberta.

Sunny
Reply to  Bruce Cobb
October 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Bruce Cobb

Who is paying for all of her travel? Food, hotels?

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  Sunny
October 15, 2019 5:41 am

Well, her parents are fairly well-off, so probably are paying for much of it themselves. However, it wouldn’t surprise me if they were receiving outside funding to help out.

richard
October 14, 2019 12:15 pm

Good news, Greta’s words are already having an effect-

Almost entire Sweden with subzero temperatures
October 4

John Endicott
Reply to  richard
October 15, 2019 10:41 am

Are we sure it’s Greta’s doing? Have you ruled out Al Gore making a trip to Sweden?

October 14, 2019 12:35 pm

A Grandma speaks out to Greta and the UN because so many are being deceived by this nonsense
A few minutes is all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR18-zf7PUlegBC27O2ClCReq_OSJbaEYfHV6lvf1KfrnHcpwbC1nDJpb60&v=fRBsQqfOVXg

Rudolf Huber
October 16, 2019 1:42 pm

If Greta went to India on foot in order to share the plight of ordinary Indians not for a week or so but for the rest of her life, I would at least respect her. She would still not make any sense but at least she would put money where her mouth is. But she lives the life of a billionaire. Hardly 0,01% of all 16 year olds have this life, this luxury, this much fun and opportunities in life. Her life rocks and she is the one that wants to condemn the poorest on this planet to eternal squalor. How very arrogant …

Johann Wundersamer
October 22, 2019 12:20 pm

“Greta Thunberg, the 16-year old Swedish girl who lectured the United Nations on climate change, is being touted as a possible Nobel Prize winner. She believes she and her white Swedish teenage friends have to save the world from us terrible oldies who created the oil and coal industries.”
____________________________________

Greta forgot / never learned about Swedish economic heritage:

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-huawei&sxsrf=ACYBGNSALJo4riDwK4F9mORIxZH6HItpZA%3A1571771245403&ei=bVOvXaqUGNyVk74P0Z2C-AI&q=medieval++European+charcoal+burners&oq=medieval++European+charcoal+burners&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.

Amber
October 22, 2019 8:45 pm

With all the photo ops from her posse can we expect a Christmas Book ? …. fossil free of course .
They don’t have her running around without a marketing plan .
There is still a bit of gold in the climate fraud industry .

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