What do the Ice Core Bubbles Really Tell Us?

Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball

At a recent public presentation titled “Whither the Weather” the most frequently asked question popped up once gain. “How do they know the temperatures from thousands of years ago, as in the Antarctic ice record.” I gave the standard answer about layers of ice, extraction of air from trapped bubbles and then comparison of the Oxygen 16/18 isotope ratio, which varies with atmospheric temperature. As always, people are dazzled by that, and even though they don’t understand, it sounds plausible. The trouble is that every time I give the answer, it triggers my long-term concerns about the nature of glaciers, glacial ice, entrapment of the bubble, and recovery methods of the air in the bubble. I spent hours discussing all aspects of glaciers and ice cores with the late Dr. Fritz Koerner, one of the few people to study glaciers in the Arctic and Antarctic.

Like all great scientists, he was very aware of the limitations of knowledge, data, and mechanisms in his area of research. I specifically recall him telling me that his work on Baffin and Ellesmere Islands was indicating that temperature changed before CO2 before it was disclosed in the Antarctic record.

The short answer to the question posed in the title to this article is virtually and practically nothing. They definitely do not tell us what is claimed, that is, accurate representation of the state of the atmosphere including temperature in individual years. This is why one of the world’s experts on atmospheric chemistry and ice cores Zbigniew Jaworowski M.D., Ph.D., D.Sc., wrote,

“It was never experimentally demonstrated that ice core records reliably represent the original atmospheric composition.”

Dr. Jaworowski was so respected as an atmospheric chemist that he was chosen to lead the United Nations (UN) investigation into the impact of the Chernobyl disaster. Of course, none of that muted the attacks on him because of his well-reasoned, fully documented views on climate change due to human production of CO2. Undoubtedly, the ad hominems will appear in comments about this article.

Just a few facts about the formation of the glaciers illustrate the problems. Glacier ice forms as precipitation fall above the snow line and accumulates in layers most of which survives the summer melt. These layers build up and change from snow, through firn (granular snow) then meld into layers of ice under the weight and pressure of overlying layers (Figure 1). This process of converting snow to ice takes years and varies depending on a variety of factors but especially temperature. The question is which year does the final bubble represent. How does it remain isolated and insulated from contamination in a very wet, dirty, and constantly changing situation? The answer is it doesn’t, and there is no way of saying that any layer at any level represents a particular year or even a span of years. As I recall Koerner told me that a core sample of eight meters was required at the bottom of Antarctic ice to yield enough sample for a single reading. The problem is at those depths, eight meters of ice represents 10,000 years of compression. How is that useful for climate when a single sample for the entire period of the Holocene Optimum.

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Figure 1

A close-up of the layers of one glacier shows the problems of dirt and lack of distinction that occurs even above the glacial ice (Figure 2).

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Figure 2.

At an approximate depth of 50 m (150ft), the ice becomes plastic and displays different characteristics than in the Brittle layer. This is why crevasses, that is cracks in the ice surface, only extend down to the Plastic Layer. In that Layer, ice flow deforms and gradually, with depth, most of the gases in the ice are squeezed out. Fischer summarizes the major problems with ice core bubbles as follows,

Due to glacier flow and in the top 50-100 m due to firnification annual layers in the ice become thinner with depth (Fig. 3). This restricts the resolution of ice core parameters in deeper ice and makes dating of ice cores (a crucial prerequisite for the interpretation of climate records) a difficult task.

However, going deeper into the ice sheet, where the hydrostatic pressure is increased, the air bubbles become smaller and smaller due to further deformation (creep) of the ice and the density increases slowly until all bubbles disappear.

The ice at the depth of the bubble enclosure is older than the enclosed air. This ice age/air age difference Δage has to be taken into account when comparing e.g. greenhouse gas concentration and temperature records from the same ice core.

The bubbles at a certain depth are not occluded at the same time. This implies that in a given sample the age of the air in individual bubbles is different. In addition, air needs a few years to diffuse down to the depth of bubble enclosure, also leading to a secondary broadening of the age distribution of the air at a certain depth.

So, the age of the ice is not the same age as the ice that surrounds it, and even the age of the air between bubbles is different. Fischer notes,

The gas records allow only a resolution of decades to a few centuries because of the slow bubble enclosure process (see below).

Apparently, they believe most of these differences are filtered out with statistics, but that doesn’t cover the useless nature of the results. To mask the problems even more, they apply a 70-year smoothing average to the raw data.

Then there is the constant flow of water across and through every portion of the glacier. Not only are glaciers dirty, as you can see in Figure 2, but they are also very wet. Water flows over, through and under them, in small amounts but also in great torrents. Every summer, even above the snow line, there is a period of melt and the water filters down through the snow in all its forms. This water constantly contaminates any bubbles within the ice, so it is virtually impossible for the air in that bubble to be uncontaminated. As Dr. Jaworowski observed,

The basic assumption behind the CO2 glaciology is a tacit view that air inclusions in ice are a closed system, which permanently preserves the original chemical and isotopic composition of gas, and thus that the inclusions are a suitable matrix for reliable reconstruction of the pre-industrial and ancient atmosphere. This assumption is in conflict with ample evidence from numerous earlier CO2 studies, indicating the opposite (see review in Jaworowski et al. 1992b).

He adds that additional assumptions are equally invalid.

1. No liquid phase occurs in the ice at a mean annual temperature of −24°C or less (Berner et al. 1977, Friedli et al. 1986, Raynaud and Barnola 1985).

2. The entrapment of air in ice is a mechanical process with no differentiation of gas components (Oeschger et al. 1985).

3. The original atmospheric air composition in the gas inclusions is preserved indefinitely (Oeschger et al. 1985).

4. The age of gases in the air bubbles is much younger than the age of the ice in which they are entrapped (Oeschger et al. 1985), the age difference ranging from several tens to several ten-thousands of years.

More than a decade ago, it was demonstrated that these four basic assumptions are invalid, that the ice cores cannot be regarded as a closed system, and that low pre-industrial concentrations of CO2, and of other trace greenhouse gases, are an artifact, caused by more than 20 physical-chemical processes operating in situ in the polar snow and ice, and in the ice cores. Drilling the cores is a brutal and polluting procedure, drastically disturbing the ice samples (Jaworowski 1994a, Jaworowski et al. 1990, Jaworowski et al. 1992a, and Jaworowski et al. 1992b).

It is interesting to note parallels in bad science between the ice core procedures and the computer models. They are based on false assumptions, inadequate untested data and are not validated. Sadly, it is a common theme of the deception that is human-caused global warming (AGW). I urge everybody to read Jaworowski’s article completely because it ties the ice core debacle into the wider debacle of international climate science.

I recall when the French scientists led by Petit, Jouzel, et al., announced the reconstruction of temperature, CO2, and Deuterium levels based on ice core data. One of them, as I recall Jouzel, warned about rushing to judgment. It was approximately five years later that research showed that temperature changes preceded CO2 changes, not as assumed, yet that is the theme still generally pushed to the public.

In the ice cores, the isotopically determined temperature signal and the signal of CO2 air concentrations are out of phase by hundreds to several thousands of years (Jaworowski et al. 1992b), with the temperature increases always preceding the rising CO2 levels, not the reverse (Caillon et al. 2003, Fischer et al. 1999, Idso 1988, Indermuhle et al. 2000, Monnin et al. 2001, and Mudelsee 2001).

All other measures agree with this juxtaposition regardless of the time period or length of record. But, even allowing for this, we have the problem that Jaworowski, nor anyone else to my satisfaction can answer.

Only recently, many years after the ice-based edifice of anthropogenic warming had reached a skyscraper height, did glaciologists start to study the fractionation of gases in snow and ice (for example, Killawee et al. 1998), and the structure of snow and firn which might play a first-order role in changing gas chemistry and isotopic profiles in the ice sheets (Albert 2004, Leeman and Albert 2002, and Severinghaus et al. 2001). Recently, Brooks Hurd, a high-purity-gas analyst, confirmed the previous criticism of ice core CO2 studies. He noted that the Knudsen diffusion effect, combined with inward diffusion, is depleting CO2 in ice cores exposed to drastic pressure changes (up to 320 bars—more than 300 times normal atmospheric pressure), and that it minimizes variations and reduces the maximums (Hurd 2006).

This is illustrated by comparing for the same time period, about 7,000 to 8,000 years before the present, two types of proxy estimates of CO2. The ice core data from the Taylor Dome, Antarctica, which are used to reconstruct the IPCC’s official historical record, feature an almost completely flat time trend and range, 260 to 264 ppmv (Indermuhle et al. 1999). On the other hand, fossil leaf stomata indices2 show CO2 concentrations ranging widely by more than 50 ppmv, between 270 and 326 ppmv ( Wagner et al. 2002).

The stomata record Jaworowski refers to is shown in Figure 3, shown for clarification with the original caption.

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Figure 3

The range of variability of the stomata fits the record for the 90,000 19th century direct atmospheric readings studied by Beck. It also fits the pre-manipulated record at Mauna Loa.

Jaworowski is saying that, like dendrochronology was misused for dendroclimatology, glaciology and specifically ice core research was coopted by the global warming hysteria created by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Ice cores were manipulated and massaged using inadequate assumptions, lack of understanding of physical and chemical mechanisms, and masked by statistics to produce a result.

This difference (between stomata and cores) strongly suggests that ice cores are not a proper matrix for reconstruction of the chemical composition of the ancient atmosphere.

Like so many of these claims of scientific certainty about past climate reconstructions, the ice core bubbles claims bear little scrutiny. They confirm A. N. Whitehead’s warning;

“There is no more common error than to assume that, because prolonged and accurate mathematical calculations have been made, the application of the result to some fact of nature is absolutely certain.”

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January 20, 2018 4:48 pm

Likely typ here.

“How is that useful for climate when a single sample for the entire period of the Holocene Optimum.”

May be…

“How is that useful for climate when a single sample CAN REPRESENT the entire period of the Holocene Optimum.”

petermue
January 20, 2018 5:40 pm

Just to add another alarming and also amazing study about bubbles in ice cores.
Seems CO2 data from ice cores are totally crap.

“Do glaciers tell a true atmospheric CO2 story?” (Zbigniew Jaworowski)
http://www.co2web.info/stoten92.pdf

Reply to  petermue
January 20, 2018 11:59 pm

petermue,

Completely outdated and completely wrong: rebuted already in 1996 by the work of Etheridge e.a. on three ice cores at Law Dome and Dr. Jaworowski made such physically impossible errors that all what he said should be looked at with a lot of scepsis. See:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/jaworowski.html

J.H.
January 20, 2018 5:44 pm

I think Stomata data would be a far better proxy for CO2.

Reply to  J.H.
January 21, 2018 12:05 am

J.H.,

By far not at all: ice cores bubble contain the real composition of ancient air, but a mix from 10-600 years, depending of how fast the bubbles are fully closed, which depends of the local snow accumulation. The composition (including isotopes) is measured with the same equipment as for direct air measurements. Accuracy +/- 1.2 ppmv for the same ice core, +/- 5 ppmv between different ice cores for the same average gas age.

Stomata data are proxies, influenced by a lot of other items than CO2 levels and by far less accurate.

Clyde Spencer
January 20, 2018 6:22 pm

I was drafted into the Army in January 1966. After Basic Training, I was assigned to the Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory (Hanover, NH) as a Physical Scientist, as part of the Scientific and Engineering Personnel Program. That Summer, I was sent to Camp Tuto (Greenland), about 20 miles from Thule Airbase. I was there to supervise a closure (from plastic deformation) survey in an ice tunnel that was constructed a decade earlier. One of the distractions that we had to put up with was Danish pilots and stewardesses who came to the tunnel to collect ice for cocktails. One had a superb cross section of the ice on display. The tunnel was originally high enough to drive a 2 1/2 ton truck (aka Deuce and a Half) in! The ice notably alternated between clean layers suitable for addition to drinks, and very dirty layers, suitable for making moraines where they intersected the ablating snout. As I recollect, there were some of the clean layers that were preferred for sampling because they effervesced in the water-alcohol solution more than ice from the other layers.

A couple of points to be made. The ice layers were not horizontal; they were inclined. The glaciologist at the CRREL lab had named the features evident at the snout as shear moraines. I don’t think that you will find the term in any books on geology or glaciology. Basically, with an uneven bedrock topography, the ice shears up over an obstruction, with stagnant ice in the ‘shadow’ of the positive relief. (In New England I have observed glacial striations in the bedrock suggesting that the moving ice can also be deflected laterally.) If this happens numerous times, the stratigraphy can become quite complex and disordered. So, assigning relative age of ice layers near the base of glaciers can become problematic. If, indeed, the air entrained varies between layers, then someone needs to explain how that happens.

As is often the case in geology, things may be more complex than they appear at first blush.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
January 22, 2018 11:58 am

Clyde,

The stratigraphy is one of the reasons that near all ice cores are drilled at the top of ice domes. Even so, the lowest layers may be disturbed in part by movements, in part by the higher temperatures due to earth warmth.

One exception is the Vostol ice core, which was more downslope and reached 420,000 years until a (large) part was disturbed ice as the glacier passed a ridge just upstream. Under the ice is a large lake, Lake Vostok that was reached a few years ago with a lot of precautions to prevent contamination with external bacteria.

DaveR
January 20, 2018 8:27 pm

Just to pick up on 2 comments made above:

Water crystallised as snow and trapped air in the eventual ice are supposed to be an accurate representation of the oxygen isotopes and atmospheric gasses present at the time of snowfall/ice compaction, which other commentators suggest have an accuracy of 50 years. This time range is supposed to represent the range between the water vapour crystallising as snow through to firn compacting as ice.

Snowfall onto a stable polar ice dome say in Antarctica or Greenland is a very different situation to snowfall high in mountain ranges and then transporting laterally and downward in glaciers, and compacting to firn then ice as cover weight increases. This is why the polar ice cores are sighted on thick domes, often in the centre or in sub-basins.

zazove
January 20, 2018 8:58 pm

Interesting site. I started off being sceptical of ice cores but I finished up being sceptical of the author.

Isn’t Ferdinand Engelbeen (from above) correct? On timescales of decades at least, ice cores seem to be an invaluable proxy and tell us a great deal. Why try and cast doubt on them like that with the suspicious, 26 year old opinions of Dr. Jaworowski? Huh?
Rudi

tty
Reply to  zazove
January 21, 2018 3:33 am

I agree, but “centuries” or even “millenia” is more correct than “decades” except for the very recent past. Decade timescales are in practice only applicable to the Law Dome data. What is somewhat disquieting in this context is that even after 20 years the oxygen isotope data for most of the Holocene from the Law Dome have never been published. In particular since the Climategate emails shows that van Ommen was specifically warned against releasing the data to Steve McIntyre.

Reply to  tty
January 21, 2018 6:11 am

tty,

The longest (downslope) Law Dome ice core is only 2000 years (gas age), ice age may be a few hundred years longer, but I don’t think it will span the whole Holocene?
Further, I suppose that the Law Dome 18O data are a good indication of local temperatures, not of SH temperatures, as the water vapor catch area is the nearby Southern Ocean, compared to the inland cores which have a much wider catch area.

I did find some interesting older work on Law Dome before the main drillings by Etheridge e.a.. looking at the 18O data more near the surface:
http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a118/iahs_118_0312.pdf
And some (partial?) data seems available:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00139056

tty
Reply to  tty
January 21, 2018 7:55 am

The section 9,000-19,000 years ago has been published:

http://www.jerome-chappellaz.com/files/publications/relative-timing-of-deglacial-climate-events-in-antarctica-and-greenland-53.pdf

Notice what they say about the core (van Ommen who has the data was a co-author):

“The core site (18), near the summit of LD (66°46 S, 112°48 E), is characterized by a high rate of accumulation (late Holocene average, 0.68 m ice equivalent per year) that results in an ice core with a highly
tapered time scale in which the Holocene represents some 93% of the ice thickness of 1200 m. However, the full LD isotopic record generally matches the long records from Vostok and Byrd to at least 80 ka, indicating that the record is continuous and undisturbed over this period”

So, apparently continuous d18O data back to at least MIS 4/5a existed by 2002 (“the full LD isotopic record”). The Holocene data due to the exceptional accumulation would seem to be very interesting. The summit core was drilled 1987-93, but is still mostly unpublished 25 years later. Why?

Given the Climategate email one might suppose that somehow it would not help “the cause”:

“Hi Phil, Personally, I wouldn’t send him [McIntyre] anything. I have no idea what he’s up to, but you can be sure it falls into the “no good” category.”

Reply to  tty
January 21, 2018 12:44 pm

Thanks tty,

Indeed it seems that they have ice data for at least 19 kyear from the slightly downslope DSS core at Law Dome…

Reply to  zazove
January 21, 2018 7:22 pm

How can we know? How can we perform an end-to-end verification?

We can’t. We can only extrapolate from lab experiments, and make educated guesses. You delude yourself if you think they are anything more solid than just that.

Reply to  Bartemis
January 22, 2018 2:59 am

Bart,

The problem with ice cores CO2 is that CO2 proxies all are inferior to the accuracy of the ice core measurements. The same problem we have had with atmospheric measurements with wet chemical methods in the pre-Mauna Loa past: +/- 10 ppmv, compared to +/-0.2 ppmv for the current NDIR method.

All we have is a small – 20 years – overlap with direct atmospheric measurements and “bootstrapped” overlaps between ice cores with extreme differences in temperature and accumulation rate. As these show about the same (+/- 5 ppmv) CO2 levels, there is little doubt about the conservation of CO2 and other trace gases in the air enclosed in the ice cores, independent of local influences.
Further, the fact that CO2 follows temperature changes in exact the same ratio, with a lag, over the past 800,000 years shows that both are directly linked and that there is no measurable migration of CO2 in the ice, or the ratio would decrease over time.

Besides that, proxies like in ocean sediments (foramins) show similar glacial-interglacial CO2 variability over longer time spans (up to a few million years), but less accurate.

RoHa
January 20, 2018 10:17 pm

The message here seems to be that ice-cores are pretty unreliable. But the claim that temperatures started rising before CO2 started rising seems to be based on ice-cores. Is there good reason for believing this rather than, say, CO2 rises before temperature, CO2 and temp rise at the same time, or no correlation at all between CO2 and temp?

Reply to  RoHa
January 21, 2018 6:27 am

RoHa,

This is typical for the confirmation bias that plagues people in general, warmistas and sceptics alike…

If the data don’t confirm one’s opinions, the data must be wrong. If the data do confirm one’s opinions, they are accepted without any reservation…

Gas data from ice cores, including CO2, are quite reliable, but are smoothed over one decade to several centuries, depending of the local snow accumulation rate.

Calculation of the difference between the age of the ice and the average age of the enclosed gas bubbles is not that simple, as that depends of the above accumulation rate and the local temperature, That provides the time needed to fully close all air bubbles in the ice. For that purpose one has developed firn densification models, but even so in other periods the accumulation rate and temperature may have been much lower, or slightly higher.
Thus the lead or lag between temperature and CO2 levels is far more uncertain than the level of CO2 at a certain depth (even if the exact dating at that depth may be wrong).
Despite that, the general opinion in the ice cores community is that CO2 probably lags the transition between cold and warm periods with about 800 years and certainly lags the opposite transition with several thousands of years.

RoHa
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 3:12 pm

So it’s “the general opinion” that CO2 “probably” lags rise in temp by 800 years. Thanks. That isn’t quite as definitive as I would have hoped, but still on the side I wanted.

(And of course the only data that counts is the data that supports my prejudices. Anything else must be wrong.)

afonzarelli
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 5:06 pm

Ro, there is a school of thought out there that there is no lag of temperature behind that of CO2. What the lag may represent is the lag of global temps behind that of the temps at the poles. Shallow ice cores do not have an 800 year lag when compared with temperature reconstructions. If you think about it, it kind of makes sense. Coming out of a glacial, the temperature driven THC keeps temps cooler at the equator than they otherwise would be (and the round trip for the THC is 800 years). Conversely, the return into a glacial would have a much slower THC because, again, the THC is temperature driven. (cooler SSTs relative to the upwelling water causing weaker walker trade winds) That’s when the lag is in the thousands of years…

4TimesAYear
January 20, 2018 11:37 pm

Science is supposed to be about what can be observed and tested…IMHO ice cores aren’t quite the same thing. Too much is assumed or inferred.

Reply to  4TimesAYear
January 21, 2018 7:24 pm

Indeed. End-to-end validation is impossible.

StephenP
January 21, 2018 2:31 am

In 2016 some WW2 fighter planes that had crash landed on Greenland were found below 264 feet of ice.
Did they sink through the ice or did the ice build up over them?
If the latter would the air bubbles near the planes be useable to cross calibrate the CO2 levels, as there must be some data on CO2 levels in 1942 when the planes crashed?

tty
Reply to  StephenP
January 21, 2018 3:09 am

At that depth the bubbles have hardly even closed yet. However in maybe 50 more years there will be a sure-fire way to test how smoothed ice-core pCO2 values really are when “the bomb pulse” of increased C14 due the H-bomb tests in the 50’s and early 60’s has passed the bubble closure zone.

Reply to  tty
January 22, 2018 2:40 am

tty,

Bomb test 14C distribution is already measured in the Law Dome ice cores:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/96GL03156/abstract
Unfortunately, the full article is behind a small ($ 6) paywall.

J Mac
Reply to  StephenP
January 21, 2018 6:46 pm

The ice built up over them, from pressure compacted yearly snow falls. The planes belly landed on the glacier in July 1942. Fifty years later (1992), the P-38 Lightning that became know as Glacier Girl was raised piece by piece from beneath 268 feet of compacted snow and ice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_Girl

tty
Reply to  J Mac
January 22, 2018 3:05 am

Compacted snow (firn) turns into solid ice about 300 feet below the surface. It varies a bit depending on snow density, which in turn is determined largely by wind.

ptolemy2
January 21, 2018 3:25 am

I don’t quite understand the motivation for this sweeping and unconvincing rejection by Dr Ball of palaeo reconstructed climate data. Is he a 6- day creationist? It does not help the climate skeptical position, of which the palaeo data forms an important part.

Reply to  ptolemy2
January 21, 2018 5:16 am

ptolemy2
January 21, 2018 at 3:25 am

I’m sure Dr.Ball is not a 6 day creationist. However, it matters not whether or not he is. The article is about ice cores and he has made some good points.

Importantly other commenters, notably Ferdinand Englebeen and others, have sensibly answered many of Dr. Ball’s points. Perhaps in time Dr. Ball will respond…I hope he does as he has lots to offer us.

However, the main point (for me at least) is that the discusion has been carried out on a sensible, calm and scientific basis. Very little of the name calling and abuse that you see on so many other sites…just point by point comments. This is what makes Anthony’s efforts creating and maintaining WUWT so very worthwhile. Long may it last and thanks to all involved as moderators and commenters.

Brett Keane
Reply to  Alastair Brickell
January 22, 2018 12:44 am

Alastair, true, and something Willis still has to learn….

January 21, 2018 4:20 am

I agree – ice core records, especially the air bubbles concentrations are very uncertain. This will be shown when the temperatures start decreasing in the next few decades.

Bernard Lodge
January 21, 2018 6:04 am

If the ice core results are reliable then the two main conclusions are:
1. Pre-industrial levels of CO2 were significantly lower than present levels and
2. Pre-industrial temperatures changed before CO2 concentrations changed
The first conclusion is an interesting historical fact. The second conclusion is much more important because it proves that CAGW is wrong. Changes in CO2 do not cause changes in temperature, it is the other way round!

By the way, the second conclusion from the ice cores is also confirmed with the modern day CO2 records from Mauna Loa which show that Atmospheric CO2 levels fluctuate significantly by season. This shows that seasonal temperature changes cause modern day CO2 concentration to change. Since I don’t think anyone would argue that changes in CO2 cause the seasons, then this also proves that changes in CO2 do not cause changes in temperature – it is the other way round!

http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/data/atmospheric_co2/primary_mlo_co2_record

A dependent variable cannot be an independent variable at the same time – unless there is a runaway effect. There obviously is no runaway effect otherwise we would not be here to talk about it.

Reply to  Bernard Lodge
January 21, 2018 6:38 am

Bernard,

A little careful: if the influence of two variables on each other is modest, they still can have that influence in both directions, without invoking a runaway reaction.
The natural effect of temperature on CO2 is about 16 ppmv/K for the dynamic equilibrium (“steady state”) between ocean surface and atmosphere.
The theoretical effect of a CO2 doubling (before any feedbacks) is about 1 K.
The current CO2 increase is far above the effect of temperature on CO2 levels, but even so, the effect of the extra CO2 on temperature may be largely masked by natural variability.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 12:55 pm

Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 at 6:38 am

Ferdinand you state upthread (@5:47) that “Humans add about 9 GtC (4.5 ppmv) per year of which about half remains in the atmosphere. That is over twice the natural variability and twice the observed increase in the atmosphere.”

How can we differentiate between mans’ fossil fuel CO2 and natural CO2 from plants? Are C13 ratios reliable and useful…what is the science behind the separation of human CO2 from natural CO2? Presumably C13 from old coal is the same as C13 from oil, biomass or forest burnoffs worldwide. It’s all plant (or algae) derived.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 1:45 pm

Alastair,

The drop in δ13C in the past 165 years is enormous, compared to natural variability, much higher than even over a glacial-interglacial transition. Still that doesn’t prove that humans are to blame, as current plants have about the same δ13C level as ancient plants (in coal, lower in oil and much lower in natural gas).

But there is an alternative route by measuring the decrease of oxygen in the atmosphere (a hell of a job for an accuracy better than 1:200,000).
For each type of fuel, the oxygen use is known from burning efficiency. That shows that slighty less oxygen is used than calculated from fossil fuel use. That means that the biosphere as a whole (land+sea plants, bacteria, molds, insects, animals…) produce more O2 than consumed for plant decay, feed and food. Thus the biosphere is a net sink for CO2 and preferably 12CO2, leaving relative more 13CO2 in the atmosphere. Thus not the cause of the drop in δ13C. Neither are the oceans, as any increase of CO2 from the oceans would increase the δ13C level of the atmosphere…
See: http://www.bowdoin.edu/~mbattle/papers_posters_and_talks/BenderGBC2005.pdf

Alan Tomalty
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 10:58 pm

\Ferdinand Engelbeen/
\A little careful: if the influence of two variables on each other is modest, they still can have that influence in both directions, without invoking a runaway reaction./

The Mauna Loa data clearly show a statistically significant correlation between seasons and CO ppm levels in atmosphere assuming that CO2 is uniform (which I don’t accept) and also assuming that the data is uncontaminated ). However the warmists argue that we can believe the Mauna Loa figures. Okay then how can one argue that seasons have little or nothing to do with the constant seasonal variability that is quite evident from the basic graph of CO2? The data clearly shows this as Bernard Lodge has pointed out. Mankind may be responsible for 50% of the post industrial increase but it is impossible to argue that change in seasons is not driving the variability. The only factor that I can think of that would affect this seasonal variability beside temperature is change in the winds. If the warmists have to argue that possibility then they better provide wind data around Mauna Loa. If not; the basic Mauna Loa CO2 graph is proof positive that CO2 cannot drive temperature.

Brett Keane
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 1:01 am

Ferdinand, alas, even from you, the slide sideways to ‘CO2 effect on temp MAY be masked’. Feynmann noted that as a sign of a false claim. By such are the lies maintained…..

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 1:08 am

Alan Tomalty,

If you have several influences on the same variable, it is not that easy to separate the different causes and effects.

The natural variations have three main influences. mainly driven by temperature:

– Seasonal:
Countercurrent, + and – 60 GtC vegetation, – and + 50 GtC ocean surface.
Net effect: + and – 10 GtC (5 ppmv), mainly in the NH where seasonal growth and decay is dominant.
Increasing temperatures over the seasons give less CO2 in the atmosphere and reverse.

– Year by year:
Parallel: + 1 to 3 GtC in warm years (El Niñp), -3 GtC in cold years (Pinatubo) or +/- 1.5 ppmv around any trend. In general gets down to zero after 1-3 years.
Again (tropical) vegetation is dominant.
Increasing temperatures increase CO2 in the atmosphere at about 5 ppmv/K

– Very long term:
Based on ice cores, a rather fixed ratio of 8 ppmv CO2/K for polar temperatures. As there is the polar enhancement, the global impact over thousands of years is about 16 ppmv/K, mainly from the (deep) oceans. Not by coincidence app. the influence of temperature on the ocean surface – atmosphere dynamic equilibrium per Henry’s law.

In all natural cases, temperature drives CO2 levels, but the largest influence in fluxes is seasonal and that gives the opposite CO2 change as for the other influences: warmer gives less CO2 in the atmosphere…
There is little change in seasonal amplitude, a small increase over the past decades, thus the largest CO2 in/out fluxes remained about the same. Still the residual after a full seasonal cycle could be positive and contributing to the increase.
Based on the oxygen balance, that is not the case: except in El Niño years, the whole biosphere is a net sink for CO2, not a source.
Neither are the oceans, based on the higher δ13C level and Henry’s law.

Humans add 9 GtC/year, nature sinks 4.5 GtC/year, thus humans are fully responsible for (near) all of the CO2 increase in the past 60 years, except for a few ppmv caused by warmer ocean surface waters.

Any increase of CO2 increases the temperature at the surface, theoretically with about 1ºC for 2xCO2, independent of the source. In reality it may be much less (sceptics) or more (climate models), depending of the alleged negative or positive feedbacks. Anyway, that influence is independent of the influence of temperature on CO2 levels and does lead temperature in the case of human emissions.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 1:11 am

Brett Keane,

Depends of the signal to noise ratio…

Take sea level changes from tide gauges: you need at least 25 years of data to show a statistical (!) change in sea level from the meters of level change by waves and tides…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 2:53 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 21, 2018 at 1:45 pm

Thanks for the information but I’m still not quite sure just how this all works.

Why does excess O2 in the atmosphere mean that the “biosphere is a net sink for CO2 and preferably 12CO2”? Does oxidation of minerals come into play…eg. sulphur from volcanoes and other such processes like weathering? What is the link between the O2 and CO2 (or 12CO2)?

Was there a jump in 12C relative to 13C after WWII when the huge global increase in fossil fuels really got underway?

This is not my field so I need a simple explanation if possible! Are there intermediate steps/processes that I’m not grasping?

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 8:22 am

Alastair,

Step by step:

Burning fossil fuels uses oxygen, each type of fuel its own amount.
Sales of fossil fuels (taxes…) give you the global inventory of fossil fuel use.
Calculating fossil fuel use with their own oxygen consumption gives you how much oxygen is used globally.

Plants produce oxygen when they use CO2 from the atmosphere with photosynthesis.
Plant decay uses oxygen and produces CO2, as good as microbes, molds, insects and animals, all from the same plant base.
If there is more plant production than decay/feed/food, the oxygen level goes up and the CO2 level down. Or the opposite happens now and then (e.g. during an El Niño).

We can measure de decrease of oxygen over the years. That decrease is slightly less than what is calculated from the burning of fossil fuels. That means that plants produce more oxygen than the whole living biosphere uses. That also means that the CO2 balance of the biosphere is negative: more CO2 uptake than release.
As there is more CO2 uptake by plants than release by the rest of the biosphere and plants slightly prefer 12CO2 over 13CO2, that should increase the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere, but we see a firm decline, all caused by our use of fossil fuels:

http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/sponges.jpg

Over the whole Holocene there was little variability (+/- 0.2 per mil) in the 13C/12C ratio in the atmosphere (ice cores), with the same variability in surface waters in the period 1350-1850 (in coralline sponges). From then on the levels dropped with over 1.6 per mil, due to the use of fossil fuels.
Ocean surface waters and atmosphere rapidly exchange CO2 with exchange rates of less than a year, thus any isotopic or CO2 level change in the atmosphere is near directly followed by a change in the ocean surface. The resolution of the sponges is 2-4 years, which is very fast and the δ13C level of the calcite in the sponges matches that of the surrounding waters quite exactly.

The increase of CO2 levels in the atmosphere and the drop in δ13C completely match each other, but only 1/3 of the original human emissions remains in the atmosphere, the rest is absorbed by and/or exchanged with other reservoirs (-deep- oceans and vegetation).

Other sinks and sources like rock weathering are minor sources/sinks and as far as I know didn’t substantially change over the past decades.

Bernard Lodge
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 10:14 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen January 21, 2018 at 6:38 am
Bernard,
‘A little careful: if the influence of two variables on each other is modest, they still can have that influence in both directions, without invoking a runaway reaction.’

Ferdinand,
Thanks for your reply.
If the relationship between CO2 and temperature is weak as you postulate, then we have nothing to worry about anyway.
However, CAGW stands for ‘Catastrophic’ Anthropogenic Global Warming implying that increases in CO2 will catastrophically increase temperatures. So most of the ‘warmists’ think the effect is not weak. As a consequence, it is important to keep re-affirming the point that it is temperature that drives CO2, not the other way round.
I believe that every ice core study has confirmed that, in the historic record, changes in CO2 concentrations follow changes in temperature and not the other way round and that this fact is not contested. The current Mauna Loa data also confirm, beyond any doubt, that in every single season since the data set was created, the seasonal temperature changes have caused changes in atmospheric CO2 and not the other way round.
So, there is absolutely no doubt, that in the short term and the long term, changes in temperature happen before changes in CO2 and not the other way round. This proves that CAGW from increases in CO2 is wrong. A dependent variable cannot be an independent variable at the same time without a runaway effect occurring. A runaway effect has obviously never occurred otherwise we would not be here to talk about it.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 12:29 pm

Bernard Lodge:

So, there is absolutely no doubt, that in the short term and the long term, changes in temperature happen before changes in CO2 and not the other way round. This proves that CAGW from increases in CO2 is wrong.

I wish that it was that simple, but it isn’t…
There is no doubt that in short term and the (very) long term temperature leads CO2, but that doesn’t prove that CO2 doesn’t influence temperature.

The point is that for the short term and long term reactions differtent processes are at work: short term processes are seasonal and year by year and both are dominated by vegetation, even opposite to each other: seasonal gives less CO2 (more growth) with higher (spring) temperatures, year by year gives more CO2 with higher temperatures (and drought) in the Amazon forest…

The (very) long term influence is dominated by the oceans, where indeed higher temperatures introduce higher CO2 levels with a lag.

Problem is with the current increase of CO2 in the atmosphere: the temperature increase since the LIA is good for not more than 13 ppmv increase in the atmosphere per solubility of CO2 in seawater, all the rest of the extra 113 ppmv above dynamic equilibrium is from the about 200 ppmv human emissions since 1850. Thus in this case CO2 leads temperature, which is rather unknown territory.
What we know from the end of the last interglacial, some 115 kyear ago, is that the effect of a drop of 40 ppmv CO2 had no measurable effect on temperature or ice sheet formation in the Vostok ice core. Thus quite certain no C before AGW. Also probably not much A in AGW, but that is for another discussion…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 23, 2018 2:46 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 at 8:22 am

Many thanks…that makes things a bit clearer.

Still estimating O2 production from fuel taxes must be fairly approximate one would think as so many countries are involved…however I guess the major users do pretty good reporting of taxes generated in this way.

The graph is very interesting, especially as it shows a nice change in slope at about the end of WWII when global fossil fuel use went way up so that’s pretty impressive on its own. Interesting also that the big drop starts at about the end of the Little Ice Age when things started to warm up.

How do we know “only 1/3 of the original human emissions remains in the atmosphere, the rest is absorbed by and/or exchanged with other reservoirs (-deep- oceans and vegetation).” And would you have any thoughts on the half-life of manmade CO2 in the atmosphere?

Have you thought of doing a post for WUWT on this general topic (or have you done one already)? I should think it might generate some interesting discussion.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 23, 2018 9:13 am

Alastair,

I agree that fossil fuel sales are less certain that direct measurements of e.g. CO2 and other gases in the atmosphere… Due to human nature to avoid taxes, the probability that these are underestimated is much more likely than that these are overestimated. Some countries (China…) may add to that by not being too honest for being huge CO2 emitters…
Anyway, the uncertainty only makes the uptake by plants even larger, as the calculated result is already more CO2 sink than source and any more CO2 emissions thus are additionally removed.

One can calculate the drop in δ13C if all fossil fuel CO2 of the past 165 years was retained in the atmosphere. Of course that doesn’t stay there forever: part is fast exchanged with the ocean surface and part with the biosphere. That is a fast distribution between three reservoirs.
Then we have the deep oceans: what is sinking there (near the poles) only returns some 800 years later (near the equator). Thus any extra human CO2 (as measured in the lower δ13C levels) sinking in the deep oceans is lost for a very long time and replaced with high-13CO2 from the oceans. That is an interesting feature, as we then can estimate how much CO2 per year is exchanged between the atmosphere and the deep oceans:

http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/deep_ocean_air_zero.jpg

That shows that the exchange is about 40 GtC/year as CO2. Independently confirmed by the drop of 14CO2 from the atmospheric atomic bomb tests in the 1950’s.
The discrepancy in the early years probably is from vegetation that in the early decades was more source than sink. Since 1990 a certain and growing sink for CO2…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 23, 2018 9:55 am

Alastair,

Forgot to add:

Based on the past 60 years of data, the e-fold decay rate of any excess CO2 in the atmosphere above the (temperature dependent) dynamic equilibrium between ocean surface and atmosphere is about 51 years, or a half life of about 35 years. Surprisingly linear over the past 60 years. No slowdown in sight (as the IPCC with their Bern model assumes).

I have had several guest contributions here at WUWT with many hundreds of reactions. A complete list is here.

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 24, 2018 4:43 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 23, 2018 at 9:13 am

Many thanks…I’ll have a look throught the earlier posts.

rd50
Reply to  Bernard Lodge
January 21, 2018 7:26 am

I agree.
You can also look at the CO2 data in the graph you presented in a better way at this site:
https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/graph.html

Look at the El Nino years 1998 and 2016 using the interactive function for the graph, expanding the data
Easy to see that El Nino increases the CO2 over previous years and then we can see that a few years later the trend comes back to prior El Nino years. Too early yet to see for 2016 but easy for 1998.

Bernard Lodge
Reply to  rd50
January 22, 2018 10:36 am

rd50 January 21, 2018 at 7:26 am
‘I agree.
You can also look at the CO2 data in the graph you presented in a better way at this site:
https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/graph.html
Look at the El Nino years 1998 and 2016 using the interactive function for the graph, expanding the data
Easy to see that El Nino increases the CO2 over previous years and then we can see that a few years later the trend comes back to prior El Nino years. Too early yet to see for 2016 but easy for 1998′

Thanks for the better link.
Your El Nino observation is a great point that I had not noticed before. Adding this to the seasonal effect makes it is absolutely incontrovertible that changes in CO2 follow changes in temperature and not the other way round. This alone destroys the CAGW claim.

January 21, 2018 11:45 am

Dr.. Ball is back to
his consistent high quality articles
as I read throughout 2017.

I didn’t like the last article here
that seemed to meld two articles into one,
and had needlessly complex meteorology.

When Dr. Ball is on the ball he
is the most consistent writer here
and one of the best, if not
the best: He picks important subjects,
like this one, and understands
climate change politics.

We know there is a problem with
ice core proxies because the warmunists
use the CO2 data from them, but
ignore the temperature data.

The reason for that is the most detailed
studies show temperature peaks lead
CO2 peaks by hundreds of years,
and that doesn’t support their fairy tale
that CO2 controls the average temperature.
And we can’t have that !

My climate blog:
Liberals MUST stay away.
http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com

Mr. Pettersen
January 21, 2018 12:15 pm

If every reading are aprox 240 years apart and the solar cycle last aprox the same than every reading wil be aprox at the same point in an sinus wave!
Can this litle fact be the reason the icecores tells us that the co2 level was 280 ppm for million of years?

To me it seems that after the ice is compressed the readings are the same no matter what year the sample is tanken from.

Reply to  Mr. Pettersen
January 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Mr. Pettersen,

Any sinusoid with a wavelength shorter than the ice core resolution will get undetected in the ice core.
Fortunately, the large changes (180-300 ppmv) between glacial and interglacial periods need much more time to go from one level to the other: some 5,000 years from cold to warm (low to high CO2) and 10-15,000 years from warm to cold with a 5000 to (currently) 10,000 years warm period in between and some 90,000 years cold period for the rest of the time. Thus even the worst resolution ice core, the 600 years of Vostok, can show the large and slow changes.

Other ice cores have better resolution, but don’t reach that far back in time.

Anyway, the largest changes are slow enough to show what happens with CO2 and other gases while the temperature changes one way or the other.

Alan Tomalty
January 21, 2018 10:25 pm

Ferdinand Are you saying that in the far distant past the CO2 levels were always lower than today?

Reply to  Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 8:56 am

Alan,

Depends how far you go in te past.

There were a few attempts to reconstruct past CO2 levels, like Geocarb III, which show much higher levels of CO2 for most of the earth’s existance.

The latest high CO2 period was the Cretaceous, 60-120 million years ago. Much of that CO2 was disposed off by beautiful creatures: coccoliths of which Ehux is the modern descendant:
http://www.noc.soton.ac.uk/soes/staff/tt/eh/
That used up a lot of atmospheric CO2 which is now buried in thick chalk layers as can be seen in the white cliffs of Dover and many places on earth…
That made that CO2 levels dropped to quite low levels compared to most past periods, even quite dangerous for the survival of C3 plants during glacial periods, when levels dropped to 180 ppmv…
The current 400+ ppmv is clearly beneficial for most plants and as there are indications that the effect of more CO2 on temperature is small, no danger for humanity or nature…

January 22, 2018 1:59 am

Hello Ferdinand and Happy New Year!

I remind you of our conversation last October, included below.

I appreciate all your work and expertise in this matter, and wanted to add the most important conclusions, imo:

1. Whatever the cause of increasing atmospheric CO2, it is beneficial and NOT harmful for humanity and the environment.
More CO2 is better, within foreseeable limits.
2. Atmospheric CO2 is not alarmingly high, it is alarmingly low for the continued survival of carbon-based life on Earth.
CO2 abatement schemes are costly nonsense.
3. Using your words, “There was no clear, measurable effect of CO2 on temperature over both time scales.”
Catastrophic global warming is a false crisis, based on the evidence..

In Summary:

There is no credible evidence of any catastrophic global warming driven by increasing atmospheric CO2.

The tens of trillions of dollars spent to “fight global warming” have been squandered on a false crisis.

Regards, Allan

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/10/06/news-from-vostok-ice-cores/comment-page-1/#comment-2632062

Ferdinand you wrote:
“I would change point 3. for:
3. There was no clear, measurable effect of CO2 on temperature over both time scales.”

Thank you Ferdinand – I can certainly agree with this statement – I will have to ponder whether it adequately replaces my previous one.

Best personal regards, Allan

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/10/06/news-from-vostok-ice-cores/comment-page-1/#comment-2631044

Aphan wrote:
“The planet began warming after the LIA without any increase in CO2. Clearly this warming leads the increase in C02 no matter where that CO2 came from.
There is no conclusive evidence that ANY of the warming since 1880 is due to the CO2 increase, let alone ALL of it. Correlation is not causation.”

I think Aphan’s statements address the essence of our problem. You take exception to my phrase “Atmospheric CO2 lags temperature at all measured time scales.” and point to a (probably spurious) correlation where over a long period of time, atm. CO2 concentrations have increased while global temperatures have gone up, down and sideways. Within that baseline CO2 increase, which could result from several (largely irrelevant) causes, there is a clear dCO2/dt vs T signal that causes the atm. CO2 data to lag the temperature data by ~9 months in the modern data record. The baseline CO2 increase is irrelevant, imo, as is its cause, because the clear signal of “Temperature Lead, CO2 Lag” is still present.

In summary, it is much easier to prove, based on both modern data and ice core data, that temperature drives atm. CO2 much more than atm. CO2 drives temperature. As such, the IPCC’s hypothesis and its many models (which contend that the future is causing the past) are falsified.

It is a much greater stretch to allege that MOST or ALL of the current increase in atm. CO2 is caused solely by increasing temperature – while this hypo has been ably argued by others (but NOT me), your counter-argument re the mass balance has credibility too. I chose to be agnostic on this point, because I want to see what the new CO2 satellites say.

I suggest that we just do not know for sure what all drives the carbon cycle, and that carbon cycle is much more complicated that we think.

So perhaps I should have worded my contentious phrase somewhat differently, but I think you understand my point.

If you choose, kindly suggest a simple but better re-wording of the subject phrase, and if I like it I will use it in the future.

Best, Allan

poitsplace
January 22, 2018 2:50 am

Honestly, the biggest problem for me is that before you even get to all of that other information, you have to remember that atmospheric CO2 in the proxy record…is mostly a proxy of ocean temperature. So when you see CO2 vs temperature in the proxy REALLY what you’re seeing is temperature verses a slightly delayed temperature.

And then the next problem is the smoothing. It is so deceptive that it might just as well be called a lie…to compare 100+ year smoothed proxy records to the modern temperature record (usually smoothed to 5 years) and claim behavior is different/pronounced.

Those two things alone render most proxy uses moot so far as climate is concerned. Because they’re almost always being used to show either that CO2 and temperature are correlated, but in a way that is known to be completely false. OR they’re used to show that the modern warm period is somehow special because of behavior that can be entirely explained by the different processing methods and the fact that one uses actual equipment (smoothing one to 100+ years and the modern record to smoothed to 5 years).

January 22, 2018 4:47 am

It is reasonable to claim that, when temperature rises, the oceans out gases CO₂.
How much? With the suggestions from this article
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/01/04/new-study-from-scripps-puts-a-crimp-on-claims-of-recent-rising-ocean-temperatures/
an indication can be obtained:
Mean global ocean temperature increased by ~2.5°C over the last glacial transition (20,000 to 10,000 years ago), while atmospheric CO₂ increased ~100 ppm.
The last 50 years mean global ocean temperature increased by 0.1°C.
So, assuming an immediate response, atmospheric CO₂ would rise by 4 ppm. However, atmospheric CO₂ increased in that period by ~80 ppm.
The net effect is that oceans absorb CO₂.

Reply to  teerhuis
January 22, 2018 12:13 pm

Perhaps terrhuis – I’ve seen this argument many times before and I do not much care, because it is largely irrelevant to the main question:
“Is increasing atmospheric CO2 harmful or beneficial?”
– and it is clearly beneficial.

If you want to better understand this question (the CO2 Cycle), please do so, but recognize that it is a very complicated question with many moving parts, most of them poorly quantified.

Ferdinand has taken this major “red herring” detour countless times in our discussions and I have said the same thing to him – I do not care that much what the cause is, since the increase in atmospheric CO2 is entirely beneficial to humanity AND the environment.

The main point that most people seem to miss that there is NO credible evidence that climate is highly sensitive to increasing CO2, and thus the alleged global warming crisis is a falsehood that has caused society to squander many trillions of dollars and many tens of millions of lives.

Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 7:39 am

The warmists argue that the Mauna Loa CO2 figures represent a fair uniform and equal atmospheric CO2 content the world over. Yet the CO2 data clearly shows a 100% correlation with seasonal changes. Clearly something is driving the CO2 changes up and down in the seasonal cycle. Since there really is no seasonal cycle on a global basis then either the Mauna Loa CO2 readings have variability based on a different local amount of CO2 or else CO2 and temperature have no correlation whatsoever. If you are going to argue that some other factor is causing the seasonal variation in the Mauna Loa figures you are arguing for some factor is changing the world atmospheric CO2 conent on a seasonal basis. That is laughable. So I conclude that CO2 figures are not constant the world over and CO2 is not well mixed in the atmosphere. To disprove that we would need 10000 CO2 monitoring stations all over the world. If they all show a seasonal variability then that would prove that CO2 can not drive climate. You cannot have a negative causality coming from a positive correlation.

Reply to  Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 8:54 am

To Alan from Allan – hope this helps:

Taking our the seasonal CO2 “sawtooth” oscillations, two main changes are occurring in atmospheric CO2:
[A] There is a “base increase” of atmospheric CO2 of about 2 ppm per year.
[B] There is a clear signal on top of [A] that the velocity dCO2/dt changes ~contemporaneously with global temperature, and its integral CO2 LAGS global temperature by about 9 months.

The primary cause of [A] is hotly debated by some, but I try not to get too engaged in this debate. Why? CO2 is increasing in the atmosphere, and it is clearly beneficial to humanity and the environment. CO2 is the basis of the photosynthetic food chain on Earth. Atmospheric CO2 is not too high, it is much lower-than-optimal for current plant and crop life, and in the longer term it is too low for the continued survival of carbon-based life on Earth. Anyone who disputes these conclusions is clearly wrong – and should know that by now.

The primary cause of [B] is that temperature drives atmospheric CO2 concentrations more than CO2 drives temperature – if it were otherwise, this clear dCO2/dt vs temperature signal (and the resulting ~9-month lag of CO2 after temperature) would not exist – and yet it clearly does.
See http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2/from:1979/mean:12/derivative/plot/uah5/from:1979/scale:0.22/offset:0.14

The false global warming crisis is based on the assumption that CO2 (in the future) drives temperature (in the past). However, I suggest that the future cannot cause the past within our current space-time continuum. Thus, the catastrophic global warming crisis is falsified.

This fact was published by me in 2008 on Joe d’Aleo’s icecap.us, and yet the mainstream climate debate has largely ignored it. Why? Because it disproves the catastrophic global warming hypothesis, and would destroy the multi-trillion dollar “gravy train” that is the global warming industry – the greatest fr@ud, in dollar terms, in human history.

It concerns me greatly how these trillions of dollars have been misallocated, trillions that could have prevented the deaths of tens of millions of children from contaminated water, and could have done much to end world hunger. That misallocation of resources and the resulting tens of millions of needless deaths is the greatest cost of false global warming alarmism.

Regards, Allan

Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 8:07 am

I now predict that the Mauna Loa CO2 data `will be adjusted in the near future to delete the seasonal variability as shown in previous data. Thw warmists always hide data they cant explain.

Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 8:13 am

Based on Bernard Lodge’s keen observation of the Mauna Loa seasonal variability of CO2 numbers WE HAVE FOUND THE SMOKING GUN of the falslity of the CAGW thesis.

Reply to  Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 12:53 pm

Alan,

A little too early to start celebrating the end of the CAGW thesis, although you may already discard the “C”…

Seasonal variability is mostly in the NH, where it is visible in all station data. It is less pronounced in the SH data and opposite to the NH (as the seasons are of course opposite too). The dominant cause is the growth (in spring) and decay (in fall) of vegetation. As the NH has far more vegetation and less oceans than the SH, the seasonal changes are far more pronounced in the NH:

http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/month_2002_2004_4s.jpg

While the seasonal CO2 variability is clearly caused by seasonal temperature changes, after a full seasonal cycle that ends back near where you started: the seasonal amplitude didn’t change much over the decades. What changed is an increase in what is left at the end of each year: 0.5 ppmv 60 years ago, 2 ppmv/year nowadays. In both cases about half the human emissions of that year.

Thus the seasonal changes don’t give you any clue of what will happen with the temperature if you add some 100 ppmv extra in the atmosphere…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 1:08 pm

Hi Ferdinand, and Happy New Year!

At first, I thought you were responding to me, until I re-checked the spelling of Alan’s name.

Ferdinand, I agree with your post here, having done this work myself years ago. I got scolded by some angry old cougar here recently for saying the same thing – perhaps you will hear from him too. Batten down the hatches and stay the course! 🙂

I know CO2 is your area of expertise and I have frankly less interest in the question of the CO2 Cycle. I somewhat miss your debates with Richard S Courtney, and hope that he is still with us. I will note that the ocean is a big place and there is no reason to expect it to be in equilibrium.

I am bummed-out today by the passing of John Coleman – and am going out now to get some exercise and ponder the beauty and wonder of life.

Best, Allan

Alan Tomalty
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 4:30 pm

An important point is that the seasonal variation far outweighs the yearly increase in man made CO2. Okay eventually the constant yearly increase in AGW CO2 will have its effect bit but even the IPCC has admitted less than 1C per century. The alarmists then say BUT we will hit a tipping point. But so far there has been no acceleration in any indicator. Also if the CO2 becomes large enough in the atmosphere then we simply have more precipitation. With more precipitation comes a release of heat which will end up mostly in the oceans. No one has shown any ocean warming. I dont understand what the alarmists are worried about

Alan Tomalty
Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 22, 2018 7:39 pm

Ferdinand If you look at the complete Mauna Loa CO2 figures from 1960 to 2017, you will notice that the seasonal variations that you say are caused by vegetation are not any lower in 2017 than they were in 1960. As the CO2 in the atmosphere gets larger this independent variable will not get any smaller until maybe when the whole earth would be covered with greenery. Indeed in the last 35 years the earths vegetation has increased about 20%. according to Zhu Z et al.(216) Greening of the Earth and its drivers Nature Climate Change 6 791-795

i look forward to that day but I am afraid that we will be hit with greater cooling before that happens and will be long dead before the cooling stops..

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 23, 2018 9:19 am

Hello Allan,

Also a good 2018 and good health wished…

Unfortunately the year already started with the untimely death of one of the critical minds we need in this world. Too many were lost in the past years…

Reply to  Ferdinand Engelbeen
January 23, 2018 9:35 am

Alan Tomalty,

An important point is that the seasonal variation far outweighs the yearly increase in man made CO2.

The seasonal variation is not important at all: most CO2 that is absorbed in spring-summer is released in fall-winter and further over following years and only a small part is finally going into more permanent residues (wood – brown – coal). In the past decades it is observed that the biosphere as a whole is a net sink for CO2, indeed the total biomass increased, including a small increase of the seasonal cycle.
Thus independent of the amplitude of the seasonal cycle, the biosphere is not responsible for the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere, to the contrary.

Compare it to a fountain circulating 1,000 l water per minute over a bassin. Someone opens the supply valve to fill up the bassin with 1 l per minute and forget to close it. After some time the bassin overflows, only caused by the 1 l/minute supply, no matter if the fountain circulates 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 l per minute…

sy computing
January 22, 2018 5:07 pm

I wonder where Stokes, et al., are for this discussion?

Alan Tomalty
January 22, 2018 7:41 pm

He is not arguing the point because he doesnt want ice core data to stand in the public record because some of it shows higher levels of CO2.

January 23, 2018 9:40 am

I hoped to see an answer from Dr. Ball himself on the different points I raised here.

Where is he?

Bernard Lodge
January 28, 2018 11:04 pm

Ferdinand Engelbeen January 22, 2018 at 12:53 pm
“Thus the seasonal changes don’t give you any clue of what will happen with the temperature if you add some 100 ppmv extra in the atmosphere…”

Ferdinand,

Nature actually gives two clues … the ice core data and the seasonal data both show that changes in temperature precede changes in CO2 concentration and not the other way round. These two indicators also show that CO2 changes as a result of natural causes, not man-made causes. Taken together, these proofs are profoundly important in the CAGW discussion.

I think you would also agree that the warming of the planet since the Little Ice Age, up until the mid 20th century at least, is also probably due to natural causes – and not increases in CO2.

Since the mid 20th century, levels of CO2 in the atmosphere have shown a steady increase – quite possibly due to burning of fossil fuels. In that period of time, global temperatures have gone up, gone down and stayed the same for decades at a time, despite the steady increase in CO2. This is another profoundly important point … even in the modern era, there is no statistical proof that increases in CO2 actually increase temperatures.

Why are you asking people to prove what will happen to temperature if and when CO2 doubles? It seems you are accepting as proven that changes in CO2 cause changes in temperature. There is no such proof.

Given your expertise in CO2, you would be a great person to call for a time-out, get everyone’s attention and tell the world that the king has no clothes. It needs to be proven first that CO2 drives temperature before we worry about what happens if CO2 doubles!

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