Climate Policy Refugees: Trump Energy Policies Tempting Foreign Companies to Relocate to the USA

EAPI represents the average commodity price of retail electricity paid by Australian businesses based on a Standard Retail Contract (commences in 6-months and operates for 2½ years).
EAPI represents the average commodity price of retail electricity paid by Australian businesses based on a Standard Retail Contract (commences in 6-months and operates for 2½ years). Source Energy Action

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

h/t JoNova – News has emerged that a high level delegation from Pennsylvania quietly visited Australia this month, offering hard pressed Aussie businesses relocation packages and asylum from Australia’s insane green energy policies.

US state of Pennsylvania spruiks power to entice Aussie firms

The state of Pennsylvania has sought to poach Australian companies with a promise of “abundant’’ energy, sparking renewed warnings from Australian business leaders that the nation risks losing jobs to offshore rivals unless it tackles its energy problems. A high-powered delegation from the Pennsylvanian government, headed by Dennis Davin, the state’s Secretary for Community and Economic Development, visited Australia seeking out large and medium Australian businesses and plugging his state’s energy advantages.

The week-long trip early this month, with stops in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth,…

The Pennsylvanian delegation has fanned fears that Australian firms are considered “ripe for targeting’’ by offshore rivals with ­offers of low-cost, reliable power.

Read more (paywalled):

Unfortunately the article in The Australian is paywalled, but the Minerals Council of Australia confirms the visit.



Revelations in The Australian today that the US state of Pennsylvania has sought to poach Australian companies with a promise of “abundant’’ energy show that power price rises here are hurting the international competitiveness of Australian businesses.

It’s little wonder that overseas countries are trying to entice Australian manufacturers to relocate by promising low-cost, reliable energy.

Over the past decade, Australia has moved from having some of the lowest to some of the highest energy prices in the developed world.

Goldman Sachs also recently noted that wholesale electricity prices are expected to increase by another 20-30% in the medium term.

Australia has already dropped from 10th to 21st on the Global Competitiveness Index.

Unless serious efforts are made to reduce Australia’s energy costs, we should expect more global attempts to persuade our businesses to relocate, which will be bad news for economic growth and jobs.


Read more:

JoNova points out that while gas is likely a lot cheaper in the USA, the price of electricity is not that different in Pennsylvania compared to Australia

This is likely to change.

Given planned closures of old coal plants, an utterly toxic investment environment for anything resembling dispatchable energy, and the track record of energy prices to date (see the top of the page), it is a fair bet Aussie power price rises will continue.

Or worse, heavy industry consumers might be repeatedly forced without notice to switch off their plant and equipment to help maintain the air-conditioned comfort of the urban greens who voted for this mess.

Even if renewables do work out in the end, which I doubt, somebody will have to pay for the switch, the replacement of existing infrastructure with expensive new renewable installations. It will be far easier to push the construction costs onto industry than spike voters with even more politically unpopular electricity price rises.

I doubt the Pennsylvania delegation to Australia was the only such delegation. Throughout the world countries with affordable energy policies are quietly hoovering up expertise and capital from high cost countries. The Europeans even have a name for this relocation of economic activity to lower cost countries, they call it carbon leakage. The winners of this quiet game of corporate migration and jobs growth will be countries which place affordability ahead of politics.

As an Australian I’ll be sorry to see the money, economic activity and jobs provided by heavy industry leave our shores – but I can’t blame business people for choosing survival over the train wreck which our politicians are busy creating out of the Australian economy.

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December 29, 2017 8:21 pm


Bite them where it hurts!



Reply to  rogerthesurf
December 29, 2017 9:55 pm

is there actually a brain drain to worry about? i thought their economy is based on selling coal to the chinese.

Reply to  gnomish
December 30, 2017 12:22 am

There is a brain drain. Australia built one of the first mainframe computers. Australia had a big ship building industry, just about all gone. Australia used to be able to launch satellites, long gone. We had car manufacturing until quite recently. And so on and so forth.
Our mines are efficient advanced low cost big producers, producing huge amounts of revenue. Thus all efforts by progressives are now centered on closing our mines.
It’s no mistake that some of the leading international climatologists are Australia. Our Universities are a bit clueless.
We used to call ourselves the clever country, its a bit of a joke. Now it’s poor fella my country.

Reply to  gnomish
December 30, 2017 12:24 am

Australia exports iron ore and imports toasters at a similar price. It used to be called the clever country. Now it’s just a parody.

Reply to  gnomish
December 30, 2017 1:26 am

k tnx, peter. i also did some googling. i’m less iggerunt now.

Reply to  gnomish
December 30, 2017 4:44 am

Australia must follow US by slashing corporate taxes: Cormann

Australia must follow the United States in slashing corporate tax rates or risk losing jobs and investment to other parts of the world, the country’s top economic ministers have warned.

The Expulsive
Reply to  gnomish
December 30, 2017 5:02 am

Australia has had the tall poppy syndrome for decades, forcing many smart entrepreneurial men and woman out – some to the UK, many to North America. People may return when they make enough money to be able to live there above the mob, but my parents did not return. My dad always said it was slow, making even the UK seem exciting with its go-go pace, and that the USA was flat out like a lizard drinking, something most blokes could not handle. My mum was a sundowner who craved the excitement that even Canada had in abundance, as well as its closeness to the wonders of the American way (she spent a lot of time there selling her art). Both blamed the dominant socialist/labour mentality for Australia’s backwardness, and this obsession with (so called) green energy is just the latest after selling half the place to Asian companies.

Reply to  gnomish
December 31, 2017 3:38 am

“Australia must follow US by slashing corporate taxes”

And the RET !!

Michael Keal
Reply to  gnomish
January 1, 2018 9:25 am

It’s all part of the plan. Lived in Rhodesia (err sorry Zimbabwe, almost forgot) then South Africa; Colonialism, Apartheid, Global Warming (err sorry Climate Change, I can’t keep up!) and now back in Blighty so I’ve studied it. Not that I wanted to.
Once the brains have been drained and with it most of your industry and your wealth the left (the wrongs) will always get voted in because those who vote right (correctly) are gone. Phase two. Lots of cultural ‘enrichment’ with more living on social security than working. Obviously keeping up with defence spending then becomes less of a priority or even an impossibility.
I’m told that in Bulawayo (in Zimbabwe) things in the supermarket now have Chinese writing on them.
Unfortunately, the World can be cruel, but only if you let it
In what’s left of Great Britain we’re struggling for our freedom with Brexit, the US now has Trump.
Don’t wait for phase three.
Time to get serious down under?

Reply to  rogerthesurf
December 30, 2017 8:50 am

The world should expect more “energy refugees”; those attempting to escape politically imposed “energy famines”.

December 29, 2017 8:36 pm

The Green Blob in Australia will see this as a massive victory: all those nasty power-consuming businesses relocating somewhere else while they continue to believe we can live in an antipodean utopia where everything is free, clean and moral. For them, of course, from the shelter of their urban pockets of superior wisdom. The rest of us know who pays.

Horace Jason Oxboggle
Reply to  Ozwitch
December 29, 2017 11:14 pm

No doubt this is what the ANZACs fought for – didn’tn some of them (ex-miners) dig the tunnels under Hill 60?

Reply to  Horace Jason Oxboggle
December 30, 2017 4:07 am

i know where id like to dig some tunnels
the termite mound in act for starters
and a few unis and other spots that need serious pest control!
what little industry we have left..they be hard pressed to find any not close to going broke already anyway..and if they do go off to usa than we sure wont be buying it back at the exchange rate!
another win for cheap chinese crap

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Horace Jason Oxboggle
December 31, 2017 3:30 am

“ozspeaksup December 30, 2017 at 4:07 am

i know where id like to dig some tunnels
the termite mound in act for starters”

Why would you do that? They are not there most of the time and then they are on “break”…sheesh!

December 29, 2017 8:49 pm

Trump would be smart to declare total all out war on the Climate Fr@ud/Sc@m with offers of cheap fossil fuel power for decades to come. That would smarten up the investors who ultimately will control the purse strings of Academia and Government who are tightening the screws on western civilization. Right now, many large Corps are feeling the pressure to adopt the CAGW meme, but if Trump made it political correct to kick all this crap to the curb, it would start to melt away. He would get a landslide re-election in 2020, right when the climate will be in full retreat of any warming, and the Pause will be well over 20 years on by then. Trump has the ability to have these morons foaming at the mouth, just as his tweet did last night. Keep it up Donald, and you will find you have to put in 4 more years after 2020. The majority is definitely behind you on this file.

The other major hit coming to investors over the medium to longer term, will be the reset on the renewable energy contracts when they roll over and come up for renewal. There will be no subsidy then, and you will lose all your money on worthless legacy Wind and Solar farms being offered a pittance on their production. They will basically have a stranded asset at the mercy of the Gov’t or private Utility. Only new Greenfield renewable contracts the last 10-15 years have been getting the subsidies, from Gov’t via taxpayers. When their contract is up at 20 years, their wind and solar infrastructure is basically spent, with maybe only 5-10 years left before end of life and de-commissioning. Or if they have a 40 year contract, generally the yearly increase is only half of CPI, so profits also gets eaten up by future inflation. Plan to get your investments out of renewables in the years to come, since that bubble will also be bursting at some point. Big time.

John F. Hultquist
Reply to  Earthling2
December 29, 2017 9:32 pm

E L 2,
Most common folks with investments in mutual funds won’t notice the goings on you describe. A person investing in specific companies ought to know how these things work.
What will be noticed will be the issues of single family homes with solar panels as the systems age and as folks put them up for sale.
Try to sell me a home with solar panels and system that’s 15 years old. Seller will want a premium, I would want a big discount.

Reply to  Earthling2
December 30, 2017 5:04 am

If you want to know what big business really thinks about renewable energy. Here in the UK one of the largest companies (BT) even built their own turbines on some of their old satellitte stations and put some on the top of telephone exchanges. Very quietly the turbines have been sold that were on land and the ones on telephone exchanges have been removed. The ones that were put on the telephone exhanges had to go as the vibration was shaking the buildings apart, the building known as colombo house is an example. BT now just states that they are contracted to buying renewable energy.

John F. Hultquist
December 29, 2017 9:14 pm

I was raised in Pennsylvania. Moved away in 1965.
But really it is a nice place — to visit.

sy computing
Reply to  John F. Hultquist
December 30, 2017 8:30 am

snowball fight? I hope?

Bryan A
Reply to  sy computing
December 30, 2017 9:02 am

Mediate term (hours) exposure to below zero temps with water vapor from exhalation condensing on and freezing to his beard

Patrick MJD
Reply to  sy computing
December 31, 2017 3:34 am

“Bryan A December 30, 2017 at 9:02 am”

IIRC, the images of most early arctic and antarctic explorers had beards before the start of the expedition? It sort of makes sense for the ice to form on hair above the surface of the skin. Forming an insulating layer between the ice in the hair and the skin.

J Mac
December 29, 2017 9:28 pm

Love the reality of ‘energy refugee’ companies fleeing the high energy costs and unstable power supplies in Green Fleece nations…. to nations/states with lower energy costs and abundant, reliable power.

This isn’t ‘poaching’. It’s Economics 101.

David J Wendt
Reply to  J Mac
December 29, 2017 10:03 pm

I’ve always been rather dubious of the Alarmist’s continual prattle about vast hoards of ‘climate refugees” wandering the planet looking for brief respite from the all destructive weather. but after this story( and several others I’ve encountered recently) I’ve come to see the light. There will indeed be many climate refugees in the near future, but they all will be fleeing the environmental fascists of climate change and the poor unfortunates will be seeking ” brief respite” from ravening wolfpacks of conscienceless bureaucrats.

Patrick MJD
December 29, 2017 9:47 pm

I didn’t think there were any businesses left in SA. Car making has gone. Aluminum smelting os still there, just IIRC. Plenty of snow in PA this year.

December 29, 2017 9:51 pm

The JoNova reference to Aussie electricity cost being comparable to Pennsylvania’s is simply inaccurate.
The Aussie 2016/2017 price of $76/$123 Mwh is wholesale.
There are customarily multi year contracts that keep commercial end user rates somewhat low, but as these contracts roll off, Aussie industry is being crucified. BTW, the 2017/2018 rates are poised to increase dramatically.
The quoted $121.90 Mwh for Pennsylvania commercial is the end user rate

Right now, there are 24 massive CCGT plants just built, under construction, or in the planning stages in Pennsylvania and Ohio alone.
These plants, fueled by one of the largest, most economical gas sources on the planet, will be a global leader for cheap electricity for decades to come.
Furthermore, the massive amount of Natural Gas Liquids emanating from the Appalachian Basin will provide cheap feedstock for a wide array of industries. (Witness Foxconn opening a huge plant in union- strong Wisconsin).

Sharp contrast to all this is the recent story about the Tomago smelter in NSW.
As the manager said, one more 3 hour loss of electricity to the plant’s plotlines and it would be prudent to simply take the insurance money, lock the doors, and walk away.

It is inconceivable to attempt to run a 21st industrial society powered by Ra and Zephyr.

Reply to  JoeB
December 29, 2017 10:00 pm

And a quick correction/edit.
The above graph shows the NSW and Vic rates as commercial, comparable to Pennsylvania.
Future expectations show a disadvantage to Aussie businesses absent a more economical framework.

Reply to  JoeB
December 30, 2017 2:52 pm

“The quoted $121.90 Mwh for Pennsylvania commercial is the end user rate”
You are hopelessly naïve. Learn about demand charges. A good size factory could see $10,000,000 a year in demand charges. Beyond mWh rates.

Reply to  JoeB
December 30, 2017 7:50 pm

And to add insult to injury, the Trump taxcuts are going to result in even lower electricity prices.

The Attorney General in my state is asking the electric utilities to reduce their prices by the amount they are saving under the Trump taxcuts (about $100 million annually), so electric rates will be even lower in the future.

I imagine all 50 states will do something similar to my state.

December 29, 2017 9:54 pm

This brings about an interesting question—-do we really want to export our gas? Do we want to frack massive areas just to send the gas overseas? Or do want to have cheap gas here and see industries relocate to the states? I have no qualms about fracking, but the development of gas reserves does have a big impact in terms of truck traffic, land disruption etc. In China and India labor is cheap but gas is three times more expensive than the US. I suspect we would do better drawing in profitable industries than selling off some gas.

Reply to  Doug
December 29, 2017 10:22 pm

The size and ultimate recovery of gas in the US is an ongoing question.
Increasing spread of unconventional development from Argentina, China and Canada to countries like Mexico, Australia, Russia (Bazenhov), several European states could ensure far larger supplies than currently imagined.

Using round numbers for US, 27 Tcf consumed per year.
Mancos said to have 66 Tcf, Barnett 50 Tcf, Haynesville/Bossier 300 Tcf.
Utica – according to recent WVU study – almost 800 Tcf, which they say is comparable to the Marcellus, so 1,600 combined.
Upper Devonian formations in Appalachian Basin said to have over 100 Tcf according to analysis by Wrightstone Energy. (Their 2015 report contains somewhat dated info with recent wells far more productive).

These figures omit the vast associated gas production that accompanies oil driven production.

So, all in all, when people say 100 years’ worth, not just hyperbole.

Leo Smith
Reply to  Doug
December 30, 2017 12:14 am

Use gas to keep things going until you can build nukes.

there’s maybe 60 years of gas, there is 6000 years of fertile thorium and uranium

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Leo Smith
December 31, 2017 3:40 am

We would have to work out how to attach a collection “system” to Al Gore’s antipodean “pie” hole. (Antipodean, or “diametrically” opposed. I am sure I do not need to draw a diagram).

Stephen Duval
Reply to  Doug
January 1, 2018 12:33 pm

The US natural gas policy is entirely centered upon the Big Oil companies and OPEC rather than US workers. There are two policy choices for NG from fracking: 1) electricity generation and export for electricity generation, and B) conversion to methanol to substitute for gasoline in the transportation sector.

Methanol would not require any subsidy to be competitive with oil at $50 per barrel. Thus the price of oil would be capped. The EPA would have to remove regulations that prevent the use of methanol for transportation. Minimal changes to distribution and retail infrastructure are required. Changes to new autos are close to zero cost and about $100 to convert an existing car.

By restricting the use of coal thru regulation and litigation, NG is diverted to electricity generation. By approving export terminals with capacity greater than the increase due to fracking, US policy will link the US price of NG to the world price of NG which is close to being linked to the price of oil.

The result is much higher oil and natural gas prices than required benefiting OPEC and Big Oil. US workers would be much better off with low US energy prices and additional mfg jobs.

Coal and nuclear for electricity, electricity for heating, and fossil fuels for transportation until A) batteries become economic, B) fuel cells become economic, or C) nuclear can electrolize water economically and then direct hydrogenation of CO2 to produce methanol.

Warren Blair
December 29, 2017 9:59 pm

We pay the equivalent of US 6.8¢/kWh in China which is roughly 17% less than what we’d pay in the USA.
If you’re manufacturing in Australia (with exception of light bulky goods) in an electricity hungry industry you need to seek immediate help from a range of professionals including a management consultant and a psychologist or psychiatrist.

December 29, 2017 10:01 pm

I thought “renewable energy” was now cheaper than fossil fuels – just kidding, I live in the province of Ontario and I’ve seen what even a relatively modest amount of wind, solar and bio-fuel (total of ~14% of capacity) can do to electricity prices – about a 125% increase since 2006 when coal-fired plants began to be phased out. Fortunately we have Nuclear, Hydro and N/G which have provided ~93% of Output over the last two years I’ve been tracking. Unfortunately all three are under-utilized (especially N/G) because the province is obligated to buy, under contract, “green” energy first. Source http://www.ieso (Independent Electricity Suppliers of Ontario power data).

December 29, 2017 10:01 pm

Today’s letter in The Australian.
Pratt exposes leadership

Australia’s richest man, Anthony Pratt, got President Donald Trump’s seal of approval for building businesses in the US rather than Australia because of Trump’s leadership and US energy costs (“Pratt gets presidential seal of approval”, 29/12).

Coincidentally the state of Pennsylvania has a delegation in Australia to woo businesses to migrate there because of their cheap energy. This makes Australia’s political leadership look completely clueless.

Our leadership should immediately stop genuflecting to the bunch of self-aggrandising pixies at the bottom of the garden. It has to tackle Australia’s increasingly unaffordable energy costs before the trickle of jobs and growth that is migrating to the US becomes a flood. These reports are a wake-up call. But can our political leaders be woken from their dreams of climate change?

Brent Walker, Killcare, NSW

Reply to  Brent Walker
December 29, 2017 10:36 pm

Mr. Walker
Your country has been blessed not only with bounteous resources, the people from Oz have, collectively, been amongst the finest individuals I have been privileged to meet.
(The ten minute scene displaying the courage of Aussies during the Cavalry Charge at Beersheba by the Australian Lighthorsemen is one of the more stirring moments in cinema, IMHO).
Truly tragic, then, if AGL’s plan to put an FSRU off Melbourne and import LNG from Pennsylvania comes to fruition.

Hopefully, saner heads and shouter hearts will prevail in your magnificent country.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  JoeB
December 29, 2017 10:50 pm

Australia is well in front in the race to the bottom with regards to fossil fuels being replaced with renewables. The politicians of this once fine land are reliant on the booming housing market. Over 250,000 migrants entered New South Wales this year, further tightening housing forcing prices ever higher. AGL is possibly the one energy company just waiting for all the coal fired plants to close at great expense to taxpayers. More LNG leaves Australia for China every day and now AGL plans to import?

No more the lucky country Australia is.

Reply to  JoeB
December 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Patrick if that quarter of a million migrants are all or mostly people ‘of the book’ and that rate of immigration continues then you would be well advised to move out to Poland or Hungary because you will shortly be a Caliphate and cheap energy will be the very least of your worries.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  JoeB
December 30, 2017 5:04 pm

“cephus0 December 30, 2017 at 12:11 pm”
Too late, it already is IMO. Just the real effects haven’t set in yet compared to Europe, France in particular. This have been going on for decades based on my own experience while living in Belgium in the 80’s. We’ve had several terror attacks in recent months, specifically in Melbourne, and *ALL* perpetrators were Muslims. We even have halal chocolate.

December 29, 2017 10:20 pm

Climate alarmism refugees. I predict there will be over 100,000,000 by 2025. With a goverment grant I could further my important study.

December 29, 2017 11:02 pm

That graph of electricty prices sure is a hockey stick, and it didn’t need any fiddling with the statistics to generate it.

Reply to  Phillip Bratby
December 29, 2017 11:10 pm

But the Medieval Warm Period has not been removed, which shows up the following Little Ice Age.

December 30, 2017 12:34 am

It looks like some of the first “Climate Refugees”, which have been predicte for years by Warmistas, may turn out to be Australians and in particular, South Australians, who are bearing the brunt of the insane anti-CO2 policies being pursued by the Global Warmistas embedded in academia, government and energy production in Australia. People are now fleeing in terror from the environmental fascists of “Climate Change” and these poor souls will be seeking ” sanctuary” from crazed hit-teams of merciless Climocrats.

Reply to  ntesdorf
December 30, 2017 12:39 am

No, they are not “Climate Refugees”,

They are “Climate AGENDA Refugees”

The “Climate Change AGENDA” is a far more serious threat to the world ……

….than any IMAGINED anthopogenic changes in climate will ever be.

Reply to  AndyG55
December 30, 2017 6:41 pm

Andy, that is a truly outstanding observation. Thanks for sharing the thought.

December 30, 2017 12:52 am

Come on up to British Columbia, average price 10.29 cents per KWH, 92% hydro, Australia 41.4 cents per KWH

Only issue is that we have an NDP socialist government tied with the green party to hold a majority. So somewhat anti development, anti pipelines, Anti LNG, anti hunting, well you get the idea. Land of David Suzuki, Andrew Weaver, but we have Susan Crockford.

December 30, 2017 1:04 am
Ed Zuiderwijk
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 1:21 am

You must be one of those poor souls who believe that fossils are being subsidized.

Reply to  Ed Zuiderwijk
December 30, 2017 6:44 pm

Actually, it is the fossil fueled economic enterprises who are providing the subsidies. No fossil fuels, no subsidies thus no renewables. Then What? And for how long and for how much,

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 1:45 am

The Gish Gallop technique is being more widely recognized for the distracting process it is.
Best to simply list a catalogue of seemingly reputable sources amongst those, like yourself, who do not wish to think, analyze, or recognize distorted propaganda when it is staring them in the face.

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 1:59 am

“Australia has almost the perfect conditions for renewables in terms of solar and wind so the days of Big Coal are numbered”

As usual, you have absolutely ZERO idea what you are talking about.

Wind and solar can NEVER supply Australian power, heck they can’t even cope with the tiny backward non-producing state of South Australia.

The problem down here is the total lack of political guts to remove the RET and let the market sort itself out.

Nobody is going to provide and maintain proper base load while wind and solar keep taking all the funds as subsidies.

This summer or next, there will be a major breakdown, and politicians will have to wake up to themselves.

Remain IGNORANT ivan.. Its all you have.

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 3:53 am

You do live up to your name,
(v should = w & s = g )

Reply to  1saveenergy
December 30, 2017 5:16 am

The “v” is okay it is the slavic version of the ,langauge.

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 7:14 am

That’s your recommendation?

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 8:16 am

What is it with you acolytes. No matter how many times your phony sources are refuted, you keep dragging them out.

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 8:17 am

As always, you are ignoring the cost of back-up when you count up the cost for renewables.

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 8:26 am

Gotta love comrade Ivan’s solipsistic logic. Start with a gratuitous assertion, refererence the original assertion frequently as corroboration until you arrive at the original starting point in conclusion. There’s a school of navigation that guarantees you will never get lost with a compass and a 100meter tape. Anytime you get lost mark the spot then go 100m East, 100m South, 100m West and 100 m North. If you find your original mark you are not lost.
I think he must be a cum-laude graduate of the Lysenko School of Science.?

Reply to  Mike
December 31, 2017 2:05 am

So it looks like comrade Ivan likes to read the socialist rag MoneyWeek – interesting …

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 10:56 am

“Mankindsdegradationofearth.con”? Obviously a fair and equitable website. No wonder your posts are always so reasonable Ivan.

Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 30, 2017 11:09 am

Not sure why you see my posts as being unreasonable. I am putting forward solid facts which do the arguing for me. Trump and Pruitt are trashing the US environment so I hope you will follow this website to show some push back. Or don’t you really care? Here in Europe they would never get away with their agenda as people care about preserving and protecting the countries they live in…

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 1:29 pm

America has an awesome, beautiful environment. I defy you to show me any area (that isn’t run by leftist democrats – the American version of you) that is polluted (and invisible, vital trace gases don’t count).

Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 30, 2017 1:31 pm

Superfund sights. Fracking is a huge disaster just waitjng to happen in terms of adverse health consequences.

[???? .mod]

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 2:46 pm

Fraccing (proper spelling) has been going on for decades without a single provable deleterious effect (no matter what claims). And superfund sites are a total canard. They aren’t being created anymore, and the few remaining sites are being cleaned as we speak.

As I said – I defy you to name one polluted place in America that isn’t run by people with your political outlook. Polluted places do exist – Detroit for instance. Those wonderful caring lefties tried to kill off their own children with leaded water. But they’re on the “Climate change train” so I suppose they have your support.

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 31, 2017 3:37 am

Poor guy. With all that gloom, despair and agony in your world how do you get out of bed? Antidepressants don’t work for you do they?

First off get over Monsanto. Continuing to beat that drum is the mark of insanity. Roundup is safe. Plastics are useful to humanity and they are a product of fraccing. We need them so they won’t go away – like gasoline for our cars.

Oh, and your website is insane. The people who run it are totally loony toons and can’t be reasoned with. If you try you are instantly banned. Your side is unhinged. That’s why you can’t make any headway on a site like WUWT – by and large we aren’t crazy.

Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 31, 2017 3:52 am

Nothing crazy about me my friend. Gasoline for cars – well let’s see how that will look 10 years from now. Mankind goes through various revolutions. You can cling on to the Industrial one – like a Luddite – but most of us are accepting a greener and cleaner environment and the technology underpinning this is what the 21st century will be producing.

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 31, 2017 4:43 am

Luddite? I had an Altair 8088 and I learned on a DEC8 that had to be booted up by hand before it could read the program on the paper tape. Cutting edge all the way. And back then there was real pollution. We cleaned it up. Now you leftist sjw types need a boogieman to “war” against and validate yourself, but there isn’t one. So you’re an easy target for hucksters like Gore. They still call you guys “useful idiots” but I disagree with half that.

Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 31, 2017 6:10 am

Again you are another example of a sceptic who automatically associates environmentalism with socialism. I run another site that is by no means PC leftie. It is a mistake to politicise this issue – this only happens in the USA. Europe and ROW does not see it as a left – right divide.

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 31, 2017 7:09 am

Well of course they don’t. Lefties have little understanding of the term “reality”. The left’s hatred of anyone who dares to disagree with them comes across quite clearly. I will give you some credit, though. Most of you guys, when faced with knowledgeable opposition immediately resort to denigration and name calling. I don’t remember you doing that.

Keep it up and you might actually convince someone, some day. Probably not here though. We actually look at the data before making up our minds.

Reply to  F. Leghorn
January 1, 2018 4:26 am

Well everyone can make up their own minds on this issue. Quite happy to debate this with sceptics like yourself. What really interests me is how people like you deny AGW completely – which in my opinion is totally absurd.

F. Leghorn
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 3:12 pm

Oops, my mistake. It is Flint Michigan that poisons its citizens. Detroit just starves them.

Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 30, 2017 12:48 pm

“Trump and Pruitt are trashing the US environment”

LOL. Good one.

“Here in Europe they would never get away with their agenda as people care about preserving and protecting the countries they live in…”

You only have to compare the typical European country to the way it was twenty or thirty years ago to see what a load of nonsense that claim is.

Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 30, 2017 1:52 pm

Here in Europe they would never get away with their agenda as people care about preserving and protecting the countries they live in…

Air Pollution in World: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map

Patrick MJD
Reply to  ivankinsman
December 30, 2017 10:12 pm

“ivankinsman December 30, 2017 at 1:04 am”

From the linked, YOUR, site…


Blah blah blah…

The website’s aim is to be entirely objective and independent.

Blah blah blah…

Contact … Ivan Kinsman directly at:

Shameless clickbait looking to leverage traffic at WUWT trying to tempt sponsors Ivan? I will admit, you have some useful information there but not much. Most unsubstantiated garbage IMO.

Reply to  Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 1:21 am

View it in any way you like – that’s your choice. But it is my tjme and effort being out into it – and that’s my choice. Take it or leave it – you probably read Breitbart and I prefer CNN. Horses for courses my friend…

Reply to  Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 2:03 am
Patrick MJD
Reply to  Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 3:17 am

“ivankinsman December 31, 2017 at 1:21 am

View it in any way you like – that’s your choice.”

I have, others too I am sure who have seen your links, those here you slander and label. We see through the shower of information (Cobbled together since mid-2017 as a database? LOL) and links at your site for what they are; Alarmist propaganda.

IMO, you would have more credibility if you linked to The Guardian instead.

Andrew Cooke
Reply to  Patrick MJD
January 2, 2018 7:31 am

Ivankinsman, as with most AGW true believers, you are blindingly narrow minded.

Oh, and seriously, stop posting links to a third party website. I wanted to read some of your links, but then I noticed it all linked to the same website. Serious red flag.

Reply to  ivankinsman
December 31, 2017 2:18 pm

If renewables are undercutting coal in real market pricing, then the governments can stop their regulations re climate and just let the market sort it out.

But unfortunately for the warmists’ arguments, the renewables are far more costly when free of government subsidies and biasing regulations Also, “renewable = unreliable” will always be true as long as the sun shines only half the day, and the wind comes and goes…well, like the weather.

Reply to  kwinterkorn
January 1, 2018 10:11 am
Reply to  ivankinsman
January 1, 2018 1:50 am

So cite one example of end-users having their electricity price lowered, as a result of the implementation of renewables.

December 30, 2017 1:34 am

There are big advantages to manufacturing where your market is. link Where’s the biggest market? America of course.

Manufacturing is changing a lot. link This is a really good time to bring manufacturing back.

Reply to  commieBob
December 30, 2017 8:18 am

Cost of transportation is still going down, which makes the old saw about locating near your market less reliable.

Andrew Cooke
Reply to  MarkW
January 2, 2018 7:27 am

Cost of transportation may still be going down, but as an industrial engineer, I can attest to the fact that it is more reliable and efficient to have your manufacturing as close as possible.

The major reason for that is speed, which a pure Pull manufacturing system (part of Lean) would require.

December 30, 2017 2:14 am

commie Bob,

The second article about car manufacturing was written in 2002 & is instructive with regards to predicting the future. Thanks for linking it.

December 30, 2017 2:25 am

Australia, land of plentiful energy but worlds highest energy prices. Australia, land of plenty of land but worlds highest property prices, Australia worlds largest and most abundant fishery but worlds most expensive fish.

Australia, where green city dwellers tell the farmers how to farm provides the most expensive food.


December 30, 2017 3:48 am

I blame the Eddorians.

December 30, 2017 4:18 am

when i was born Aus was leaping ahead and a great place to live build n raise families
now 58yrs later i cry for my country and the ruin its becoming ;-(

Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 12:29 am

“GREY LENSMAN December 30, 2017 at 2:25 am”

“Australia, land of plentiful energy but worlds highest energy prices.” Privatise publicly owned utilities, allow that infrastructure to deteriorate through lack of investment, restrict energy generation (Remove coal without any substitutes). Result? High prices.

“Australia, land of plenty of land but worlds highest property prices,…”

Allow, almost, unrestricted migration in to Australia where there is no, planned (Australia every year updates in’t 10 and 20 year plans, but does nothing), infrastructure upgraded to support that migration. Example; New South Wales alone received over 250,000 migrants this year. Let’s assume 1/3 are adults, where are the jobs? I say this with a certain level of irony as I am a migrant to Aus too.

“Australia worlds largest and most abundant fishery but worlds most expensive fish.” Probably because owned overseas?

“Australia, where green city dwellers tell the farmers how to farm provides the most expensive food.” We also have almost no competition in the market, Coles and Woolworths (Owned by the same parent company) being the major players and can dictate to growers. We have Aldi and IGA, but small fish in comparison.

Politicians have allowed this to happen.

December 30, 2017 4:14 am
Reply to  john
January 1, 2018 1:52 am

I forget, which branch of government employs him?

Jonny Scott
December 30, 2017 4:17 am

Climate Refugees are just a cynical creation to hide (not very well) the divide and conquer agenda of the dangerous left and their hapless or is it clueless followers

December 30, 2017 5:22 am

I think progressives are uneasy about creating more prosperity. Better to have high-paying, non-polluting jobs as academics and government employees and consultants, and avoid thinking about what built the present prosperity in the first place.

Reply to  BallBounces
December 30, 2017 7:34 am

non-polluting jobs
wealth is created 3 ways. grow it, dig it up, or build it. these all create environmental problems of some form. non polluting jobs don’t pollute because they don’t create wealth. they are like parasitic enterprises relying on the wealth created by others for their existence.

Reply to  BallBounces
December 30, 2017 8:20 am

Progressives only worry about other people getting wealthy.

December 30, 2017 5:59 am
F. Leghorn
Reply to  john
December 30, 2017 1:32 pm

I’m stumped. How do we build a wall around Mars?

Patrick MJD
Reply to  F. Leghorn
December 31, 2017 4:19 am

Easy! Building a wall around Al Gore, where do we start?

F. Leghorn
Reply to  Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 4:44 am

A wall around Gore? Do you realize how much that would cost?

F. Leghorn
Reply to  Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 4:44 am

A wall around Gore? Do you realize how much that would cost?

December 30, 2017 7:16 am

the largest climate related migration of humans on the planet is underway. over the next monrh the town of quartzsite (pop 3677) is expected to add more than 1 million climate refugees escaping brutally cold weather in the us and Canada.

in a related story Canada celebrates the success of its national carbon tax in preventing runaway global warming. the Trudeau government was quoted as saying “only runaways to places like Arizona and Florida need fear above freezing temperatures anytime soon.”

December 30, 2017 8:03 am

I read a story yesterday about China cutting it’s corporate tax rates in order to stop companies from moving to the US to take advantage of our now lower corporate tax rates.

December 30, 2017 8:06 am

” but I can’t blame business people for choosing survival over the train wreck which our politicians are busy creating”

I wish more people were this understanding. I’ve lost track of the number of populists who scream about “unpatriotic” companies who ship “our jobs” overseas, just to save a few bucks.
Who also demand import tariffs to punish companies that move to get away from insane taxes and regulations.

Bruce Cobb
December 30, 2017 10:18 am

I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I just can’t seem to get tired of winning.
Perhaps I need to seek out the nearest chapter of winaholics anonymous.

December 30, 2017 12:01 pm

Maybe this time the US will understand the importance of industry in a Capitalistic economy and not listen to the false prophecies of Globalism. Trump may be a bombast but I beleive he sees through the propaganda designed to promote Socialism at the peoples’ expense. If there is a god I hope he/she/it yblesses him.

Reply to  markl
December 30, 2017 6:43 pm

And to satisfy the interests of the IMF, World Bank and the UN at the expense of the people who will have to pay for all of this.

December 30, 2017 12:42 pm

How I laughed when Barry Obozo was whining about Trump saying he was going to bring jobs back and saying something along the lines of “What’s he going to do? Wave a magic wand?” with his trademark dumb heavy dripping irony. Old Barry was firmly of the opinion that those jobs were gone and weren’t ever coming back and no wonder he thought that since he was committed to the wholesale destruction of the US energy sector.

Trump’s ‘magic wand’ was so trivially simple a child could see it. Mobilise the immense fossil reserves of the US using advanced new recovery technology providing reliable, abundant, cheap energy and rendering the country as a huge net energy exporter. So now while the rest of the Western world plays virtue-signalling games over junk climate science, Trump gets on with turning the US back into an industrial powerhouse and American business interests can virtually take their pick of what industries they want to import.

If global temperatures stay flat or heaven forbid take a dip then Trump will have revealed the whole ‘leadership’ of the Western world for the demented lying fools they are. And they know it. They must be absolutely terrified of this man who won’t join in with their psychotic globalist games.

Reply to  cephus0
December 30, 2017 8:50 pm

“If global temperatures stay flat or heaven forbid take a dip then Trump will have revealed the whole ‘leadership’ of the Western world for the demented lying fools they are. And they know it. They must be absolutely terrified of this man who won’t join in with their psychotic globalist games.”

Excellent point.

December 30, 2017 2:22 pm

One way or another high costs move the economic activity. It can be all at once in the form of corporations moving or it can be slowly in the form of businesses in high cost jurisdictions withering while those in low cost jurisdictions flourishing. If the business moves you blame the evil corporation for seeking profit. If the business withers then you blame the evil consumer for seeking low cost goods and services.

Patrick MJD
December 31, 2017 3:27 am

OT; Another fire in a 12 storey hi-rise in Manchester, UK. Wonder if the building is “council managed” and was retrofitted (Yes I say this as the images show a circa 1960’s pre-fab concrete building – the “solution” to inner-city housing density) with “cladding”?

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