'Correcting' Trenberth et al.

(See the note below before taking this post seriously – Anthony)

Guest essay by Steven Wilde

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Here we see the classic energy budget analysis supporting the hypothesis that the surface of the Earth is warmer than the S-B equation would predict due to 324 Wm2 of ‘Back Radiation’ from the atmosphere to the surface.

It is proposed that it is Back Radiation that lifts the surface temperature from 255K, as predicted by S-B, to the 288K actually observed because the 324 Back Radiation exceeds the surface radiation to the air of 222 Wm2 ( 390 Wm2 less 168 Wm2) by 102 Wm2. It is suggested that there is a net radiative flow from atmosphere to surface of 102 Wm2.

I now discuss an alternative possibility.

The portions I wish to focus on are:

i) 390 Wm2 Surface Radiation to atmosphere

ii) 78 Wm2 Evapo-transpiration surface to atmosphere

iii) 24 Thermals surface to atmosphere

iv) 324 Back Radiation atmosphere to surface

The budget needs to be amended as follows:

The 78 Wm2 needs to be corrected to zero because the moist adiabatic lapse rate during ascent is less than the dry lapse rate on adiabatic descent which ensures that after the first convective cycle there is as much energy back at the surface as before Evapo-transpiration began.

The 24 Wm2 for thermals needs to be corrected to zero because dry air that rises in thermals then warms back up to the original temperature on descent.

Therefore neither ii) nor iii) should be included in the radiative budget at all. They involve purely non radiative means of energy transfer and have no place in the radiative budget since, being net zero, they do not cool the surface. AGW theory and the Trenberth diagram incorrectly include them as a net surface cooling influence.

Furthermore, they cannot reduce Earth’s surface temperature below 255K because both conduction and convection are slower methods of energy transmission than radiation. To reduce the surface temperature below 255K they would have to work faster than radiation which is obviously not so.

They can only raise a surface temperature above the S-B expectation and for Earth that is 33K.

Once the first convective overturning cycle has been completed neither Thermals nor Evapo-transpiration can have any additional warming effect at the surface provided mass, gravity and insolation remain constant.

As regards iv) the correct figure for the radiative flux from atmosphere to surface should be 222 Wm2 because items ii) and iii) should not have been included.

That also leaves the surface to atmosphere radiative flux at 222 Wm2 which taken with the 168 Wm2 absorbed directly by the surface comes to the 390 Wm2 required for radiation from the surface.

The rest of the energy budget diagram appears to be correct.

So, how to decide whether my interpretation is accurate?

I think it is generally accepted that the lapse rate slope marks the points in the atmosphere where there is energy balance within molecules that are at the correct height for their temperature.

Since the lapse rate slope intersects with the surface it follows that DWIR equals UWIR for a zero net radiative balance if a molecule at the surface is at the correct temperature for its height. If it is not at the correct surface temperature it will simply move towards the correct height by virtue of density variations in the horizontal plane (convection).

Thus, 222 UWIR at the surface should equal 222 DWIR at the surface AND 222 plus 168 should add up to 390 and, of course, it does.

AGW theory erroneously assumes that Thermals and Evapo-transpiration have a net cooling effect on the surface and so they have to uplift the radiative exchange at the surface from 222 Wm2 to 324 Wm2 and additionally they assume that the extra 102 Wm2 is attributable to a net radiative flux towards the surface from the atmosphere.

The truth is that there is no net flow of radiation in any direction at the surface once the air at the surface is at its correct temperature for its height, which is 288K and not 255K. The lapse rate intersecting at the surface tells us that there can be no net radiative flux at the surface when surface temperature is at 288K.

A rise in surface temperature above the S-B prediction is inevitable for an atmosphere capable of conducting and convection because those two processes introduce a delay in the transmission of radiative energy through the system. Conduction and convection are a function of mass held within a gravity field.

Energy being used to hold up the weight of an atmosphere via conduction and convection is no longer available for radiation to space since energy cannot be in two places at once.

The greenhouse effect is therefore a product of atmospheric mass rather than radiative characteristics of constituent molecules as is clearly seen when the Trenberth diagram is corrected and the lapse rate considered.

Since one can never have more than 390 Wm2 at the surface without increasing conduction and convection via changes in mass, gravity or insolation a change in the quantity of GHGs cannot make any difference. All they can do is redistribute energy within the atmosphere.

There is a climate effect from the air circulation changes but, due to the tiny proportion of Earth’s atmospheric mass comprised of GHGs, too small to measure compared to natural variability.

What Happens When Radiative Gases Increase Or Decrease?

Applying the above correction to the Trenberth figures we can now see that 222 Wm2 radiation from the surface to the atmosphere is simply balanced by 222 Wm2 radiation from the atmosphere to the surface. That is the energy being constantly expended by the surface via conduction and convection to keep the weight of the atmosphere off the surface. We must ignore it for the purpose of energy transmission to space since the same energy cannot be in two places at once.

We then have 168 Wm2 left over at the surface which represents energy absorbed by the surface after 30 Wm2 has been reflected from the surface , 77 Wm2 has been reflected by the atmosphere and 67 Wm2 has been absorbed by the atmosphere before it reaches the surface.

That 168 Wm2 is then transferred to the atmosphere by conduction and convection leaving a total of 235 Wm2 in the atmosphere (168 plus 67).

It is that 235 Wm2 that must escape to space if radiative balance is to be maintained.

Now, remember that the lapse rate slope represents the positions in the atmosphere where molecules are at their correct temperature for their height.

At any given moment convection arranges that half the mass of the atmosphere is too warm for its height and half the mass is too cold for its height.

The reason for that is that the convective process runs out of energy to lift the atmosphere any higher against gravity when the two halves equalise.

It must follow that at any given time half of the GHGs must be too warm for their height and the other half too cold for their height.

That results in density differentials that cause the warm molecules to rise and the cold molecules to fall.

If a GHG molecule is too warm for its height then DWIR back to the surface dominates but the molecule rises away from the surface and cools until DWIR again equals UWIR.

If a GHG molecule is too cold for its height then UWIR to space dominates but the molecule then falls until DWIR again equals UWIR.

The net effect is that any potential for GHGs to warm or cool the surface is negated by the height changes relative to the slope of the adiabatic lapse rate.

Let’s now look at how that outgoing 235 Wm2 is dealt with if radiative gas concentrations change.

It is recognised that radiative gases tend to reduce the size of the Atmospheric Window (40 Wm2) so we will assume a reduction from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2 by way of example.

If that happens then DWIR for molecules that are too warm for their height will increase but the subsequent rise in height will cause the molecule to rise above its correct position along the lapse rate slope with UWIR to space increasing at the expense of DWIR back to the surface and rising will only stop when DWIR again equals UWIR.

Since UWIR to space increases to compensate for the shrinking of the atmospheric window (from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2) the figure for radiative emission from the atmosphere will increase from 165 to 170 which keeps the system in balance with 235 Wm2 still outgoing.

If the atmosphere had no radiative capability at all then radiative emission from the atmosphere would be zero but the Atmospheric Window would release 235 Wm2 from the surface.

If the atmosphere were 100% radiative then the Atmospheric Window from the surface would be zero and the atmosphere would radiate the entire 235 Wm2.

==============================================================

Note: I’m glad to see a number of people pointing out how flawed the argument is. Every once in awhile we need to take a look at the ‘Slayer’ mentality of thinking about radiative balance, just to keep sharp on the topic. At first I thought this should go straight into the hopper, and then I thought it might make some good target practice, so I published it without any caveat.

Readers did not disappoint.

Now you can watch the fun as they react over at PSI.  – Anthony

P.S. Readers might also enjoy my experiment on debunking the PSI light bulb experiment, and note the reactions in comments, entirely opposite to this one. New WUWT-TV segment: Slaying the ‘slayers’ with Watts

Update: Let me add that the author assuredly should have included a link to the underlying document, Earth’s Global Energy Budget by Kiehl and Trenberth …

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Stephen Wilde
April 9, 2014 11:58 am

Alec Rawls said:
“I see no reason to think from the diagram that Trenberth is misinterpreting adiabatic warming and cooling as movements of energy. Does he actually say this? ”
Can you make the numbers balance on the basis that the 24 and 78 are just a part of the 165 and 30 ?
On that basis where does the extra 102 Wm2 come from for the DWIR figure of 342 ?
It should have radiated out shouldn’t it ?
Since there is no downward arrow for the 24 and 78 and K&T increase DWIR by exactly the same amount I guess they are saying that the 102 taken up by thermals and Evapo-transpiration is all coming back as DWIR.
But what about adiabatic warming on descent ?
That is a non radiatve process so it cannot be coming back as DWIR but they seem to say it is.
The simplest scenario is this:
i) The radiative exchange between surface and atmosphere is in balance at 222 Wm2.
ii) The adiabatic exchange between surface and atmosphere is in balance at 102 Wm2.
iii) Energy absorbed by surface and atmosphere from space ( 67 + 168) is in balance with energy emitted by surface and atmosphere to space (165 + 30 + 40) which is 235 in each case.
The effect of radiative capability is therefore only to redistribute energy so that 168 absorbed by the surface becomes 40 emitted by the surface and 67 absorbed by the atmosphere becomes 195 emitted by the atmosphere (165 + 30).
Transparency to incoming shortwave and opacity to outgoing longwave simply re-apportions the share of the same amount of energy emitted to space between emissions from surface and atmosphere
What is wrong with that ?

Stephen Wilde
April 9, 2014 12:09 pm

Willis said:
“Trick, do you think that evaporation DOESN’T cool the surface? Because that’s Steven’s claim, whether we talk about net flows or individual flows.”
Evaporation does cool the surface because it creates condensate which then radiates out to space. .K & T give that a figure of only 30
Latent heat does not radiate and when it is released by condensation at height most of it causes accelerated uplift when it is conducted to the mainly non radiative bulk atmosphere so it goes to more PE which does not radiate.
After the first convective cycle, latent heat is returning within descending air in the form of PE converted back to KE as fast as it is moved upward again.
I think many here are firing off without thought and jumbling the terminology.
It might be best if I just let things lie whilst those still interested try to absorb what has already been said.

Bart
April 9, 2014 12:29 pm

JustAnotherPoster says:
April 9, 2014 at 11:27 am
You are correct that there is a positive feedback loop in there. More back-radiation produces higher temperature, produces more back-radiation, produces higher temperature, and so on. However, the process peters out because the higher temperature also produces more radiation in frequency bands which are not back-radiated. The process reaches equilibrium when the total energy flux in = total energy flux out.
Willis Eschenbach says:
April 9, 2014 at 11:31 am
Yes, walk past a golf course or a large cemetary at night, and you will feel the distinct cooling effect of evaporation from all that watered lawn. That heat gets transported up through atmosphere, where it can be radiated away.
That is precisely the point I was making above. There are more paths to the planet’s atmospheric radiators than mere surface radiation, and that fact means that the cartoon greenhouse effect is a vast oversimplification.

Editor
April 9, 2014 12:50 pm

Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 11:58 am

Alec Rawls said:

“I see no reason to think from the diagram that Trenberth is misinterpreting adiabatic warming and cooling as movements of energy. Does he actually say this? ”

Can you make the numbers balance on the basis that the 24 and 78 are just a part of the 165 and 30 ?
On that basis where does the extra 102 Wm2 come from for the DWIR figure of 342 ?
It should have radiated out shouldn’t it ?
Since there is no downward arrow for the 24 and 78 and K&T increase DWIR by exactly the same amount I guess they are saying that the 102 taken up by thermals and Evapo-transpiration is all coming back as DWIR.

I’m not sure what you mean by “make the numbers balance”. The problem with the K/T diagram is that it is oversimplified to the point where processes are omitted and glossed over … and as a result, the K/T diagram doesn’t balance in the sense that different amounts are radiated upwards and downwards from the single atmospheric layer in their model.
However, it does balance in the sense that 519 W/m2 is absorbed by the atmosphere, and 519 W/m2 is radiated by the atmosphere … so what does “make the numbers balance” mean to you?
The simplest energy budget diagram I know of that actually balances at all levels is my own, viz:
As you will note, to model the planet requires a minimum of a 2-atmospheric layer model. The problem is that a single layer planetary “greenhouse” doesn’t concentrate enough energy at the surface to allow for the known surface losses. However, a two layer model will do so, as I show above.
Note that my global energy budget duplicates the main flows of the K/T diagram, but it balances at all three layers (surface and two atmospheric layers). For each of them:
• the incoming energy is equal to the outgoing energy, and
• equal amounts of energy are radiated upwards and downwards.
This is NOT true of the K/T diagram, which has to show different amounts going upwards and downwards from the atmosphere in order to force the balance.
It was this inconsistency in the K/T diagram that first impelled me to develop a model that actually did balance at all levels.
So … I agree with you that you can’t make the K/T numbers balance, if by “balance” you mean equal amounts radiated up and down. But it is not for the reason that you claim. It is because you cannot make a model with a single atmospheric layer balance given the known energy flows within the climate system.
Finally … my diagram shows both the latent and sensible heat flows with the same values as in the K/T budget. So to answer your question of “can you make the numbers balance” with those flows, yes, my budget does indeed balance.
w.

Richard G
April 9, 2014 12:52 pm

John West says:April 8, 2014 at 4:32 pm And W.
” there are better ones:
Showing uncertainty:
Showing more than one atmospheric layers:
Showing net heat flows:”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the graphics.
There is one large nit to pick: These still ignore the fact that the system is locked in dynamic equilibrium as it hunts between 342 W/m2 (to pick one estimated value) and 0 W/m2 incoming radiation 24Hr/365.25D/Yr. Equilibrium happens at a variable point somewhere in the upper atmosphere, advection and the night time regime seem to be ignored.
Quite the restless Giant, Earth
.

Trick
April 9, 2014 12:57 pm

Willis 11:53am: “Neither of those claims is true. Not all matter radiates, and when it does, it doesn’t do so at all frequencies.It doesn’t radiate at all in the thermal range….Your claims are simply not true. While most matter radiates, not all matter radiates, and the matter that does radiate does so at certain frequencies, not at “all frequencies” … this is basic stuff.”
Yes basic. Argon does radiate in the thermal range. Max Planck taught us all matter radiates all the time, at all frequencies, there are no exceptions. Willis I am a poor teacher obviously. Don’t just listen to me. Please get out a text book on radiation – if you find something different please advise. We talked about this before. I will try better. These are not my opinions, this is basic science.
All matter radiates all the time – some so small as to be undetectable with today’s instruments (tomorrow’s, who knows?). Here is the energy distribution function (or spectral distribution) given by the Planck distribution function, you should find it too – containing speed of light, Boltzmann constant B, Planck’s constant h – these are all as fundamental as you can get in nature:
Pe(ω) =hω^3/4π^2c^2 * 1/(exp (ω/kBT ) − 1)
This is never 0 if it copied ok, don’t trust – look it up. The integral of this function over any frequency interval is the total radiant energy in that interval crossing unit area in unit time, called the irradiance. You should find this in the beginning of any text on radiation probably in 1st couple sections. Check it out, read thoroughly. Never zero at any freq. interval at any time, means all matter radiates all the time at all frequencies. No exceptions, never means NEVER! and absolute zero is unattainable.
Max Planck is the guy figured this out and it was a long arduous road to do so which is why you still hear of him & I’m just a humble hockey fan. Far as I’m concerned onerous GHGs are only found in farmer’s greenhouses from cats with digestive problems. In Max Planck’s nature there are IR active gases like CO2 and IR inactive gases such as Ar.

MikeB
April 9, 2014 1:11 pm

Trick,
Just passing through but your equation is for a blackbody only. It does not apply to matter which has varying emmisivity at different wavelengths (like thin gases).

Editor
April 9, 2014 1:14 pm

Stephen says:

After the first convective cycle, latent heat is returning within descending air in the form of PE converted back to KE as fast as it is moved upward again.

I wonder if Stephen might be confused about the definition of latent heat. It refers not to the potential energy of higher altitude air but to the energy stored in the phase change from liquid to vapor. This phase change does not reverse after the water vapor has precipitated out at altitude and the now dry air descends back towards the surface. The water is gone. For the latent heat to return as the parcel of air descends it would have to take in water vapor from outside, making it no longer the same parcel of air, whereas adiabatic lapse refers to the exchange between PE and KE within a given parcel of air as its altitude changes.
Does raise an interesting question: what about the heat that gets carried from the atmosphere to the surface in the form of precipitation? Trenberth’s diagram shows a “latent heat” release at the top of its evapo-transpiration column where it shows some rain precipitating out of a cloud but it does not have any number for the amount of heat carried back to the surface by that precipitation. Presumably the evapo-transpiration number is a net number. Might be interesting to see it broken down into component energy movements.

joeldshore
April 9, 2014 1:15 pm

JustAnotherPoster says:

Again no one seems to have actually answered the dumb question I asked a while ago…….

Wrong…I did: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/04/08/correcting-trenberth-et-al/#comment-1608682

Frank
April 9, 2014 1:16 pm

Steve Wilde: The latent heat carried aloft by convection can be calculated from the heat of vaporization of the precipitation that falls. 1 m^3 of precipitation falls on the average 1 m^2 of the planet in a year. That’s an average of about 80 W/m2.
Once you subtract the contribution from latent heat, one can begin to understand the convection of sensible heat. Radiative cooling high in the atmosphere is more rapid that near the surface. Convection of warmer parcels of air to the upper atmosphere to cool and replacing them with already cooler parcels of air cools the earth. Unfortunately work is done on a parcel of gas as it changes altitude, so we can’t simply measure energy flux by the change in temperature. I believe the conserved quantity in adiabatic transfers of parcels of air to different altitudes is potential temperature.
θ = T.(p0/p)k
where T = (real) temperature, p = pressure, p0 = reference pressure (usually at 1000 mbar) and k = R/cp = 2/7 for our atmosphere
When you combine latent heat with potential temperature, you get “moist potential temperature” or “equivalent potential temperature”. The Hadley circulation takes warm moist air from near the equator to the top of the troposphere, drying it and cooling it without changing its moist potential temperature. It moves poleward while cooling before it descends. Then it warms upon descending – more quickly than it cooled upon rising because the local lapse rate decreases with humidity and this air is now very dry. However, the moist potential temperature doesn’t change upon descent. The air that descends around 25 degN/S has a LOWER moist potential temperature than the air that rose near the equator. If you follow moist potential temperature, through any convective cycle, you can determine the flux of sensible heat.
My source for this information is: http://scienceofdoom.com/2012/02/12/potential-temperature/
http://scienceofdoom.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/moist-potential-temperature-mp2008.png

April 9, 2014 1:28 pm

joelshore’s link above gives a very good explanation of how natural climate variability works.

Richard G
April 9, 2014 1:35 pm

Steven Wilde:
Your adiabatic/convective model seems inadequate.
Consider your model to be a bicycle tire. As you roll along the energy state (ignoring friction) remains stable through the rotation. When you roll through a puddle suddenly the tire is picking up water and depositing it all over your torso, doing work. you must put work into the pedals to maintain velocity.
Happy pedaling.

Curt
April 9, 2014 1:36 pm

Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 11:19 am
“You can’t have a net flow within a reversible adiabatic process. The ascent and the descent involve no addition or removal of energy.”
Come on Stephen, you can do better than that! The process is not remotely adiabatic. The higher the water vapor, or its condensate, get, the more it can radiate energy to space. By the time it starts its downward journey it has lost a lot of energy.
The process is analogous to an engineered air conditioning system. Inside your house, the warm air evaporates the coolant, thereby transferring energy to it. The evaporated coolant is sent outside the house, where it is condensed and it transfers energy to the ambient before it is sent back inside. Without the step of transferring energy to ambient, it could not provide a net cooling of the inside. But with this step, it can and does. (In the case of an air conditioner, the transfer to ambient is predominantly through conductive/convective means; in the case of the atmosphere to space, it can only be through radiative means.)
By your logic, an air conditioner could not cool a house.
A lot of Slayers have the opposite problem, thinking that a transparent (radiatively inactive) atmosphere can cool the surface on an ongoing basis. They miss that, for this to be true, the atmosphere itself needs a sink to pass on the energy absorbed from the surface. And this can only happen by radiation.

Trick
April 9, 2014 1:46 pm

MikeB 1:11pm: How threads wander. From the ’97 cartoon in top post back 125 years or so now. The eqn. I posted has been well known that long and we all should be in awe of it or name one other eqn. also has three constants of nature c, h, B.
“..your equation is for a blackbody only.”
No. Planck formula is derived for ALL matter put in the box. So the matter, any matter solid/liquid/gas, put in there receives photons from the inside of the box held at fixed T of all wavelengths all the time from all directions. Willis will find this construct Planck used long ago when he takes time to look it up – I like Bohren 2006 for plain language but any text on radiation will do, though some are more obtuse than others.
They then drilled a hole in it theoretically and empirically to let some radiation out and the BB concept of Kirchhoff sprang into use from there as all real objects reflect some incident energy. At equilibrium, the radiation field is isotropic, the photons in the container, like gas molecules, do not all have the same energy (equivalently, frequency) but are distributed about a most probable value.

richardscourtney
April 9, 2014 2:00 pm

JustAnotherPoster:
At April 9, 2014 at 11:27 am you ask

Again no one seems to have actually answered the dumb question I asked a while ago…….
Greenhouse gases have existed for millions of years in our atmpsphere. The processes of ‘back radiation’ therefore must have been occurring for millions of years, as posed by the diagram, if that’s the theory on how our atmpsphere works…
Why isn’t our atmosphere already hot and or Venus like ?
All things being equal adding more C02 or other gases into the atmosphere should increase the temperature by the process of ‘back radiation’ according to the GHG theory.
But the problem is…. This should have been occurring for millions of years a these gases and the sun have been running these processes for millions of years.
Why isn’t the planet much much hotter now ?

Three reasons.
Firstly, an amount of CO2 in the atmosphere raises surface temperature by an amount: it does NOT induce global warming over an infinite period.
Secondly, the additional effect of additional increment to CO2 in the air reduces logarithmically: this is explained here
Thirdly, there was much, much more CO2 in the air in the past. Indeed, burning fossil fuels returns some CO2 to the air.
Richard

Trick
April 9, 2014 2:02 pm

Willis 11:53: “Trick, do you think that evaporation DOESN’T cool the surface? Because that’s Steven’s claim, whether we talk about net flows or individual flows.”
Willis’ diagram didn’t post up 12:50pm but I liked it before, so just use cartoon at top. Be very careful what Willis means by the control volume being cooled. Here the control volume of interest is the near surface atm. where thermometers hang and it is observed in rough steady state equilibrium cooling or heating a bit every month anomaly comes out.
The control volume “surface” being cooled in the top cartoon along the bottom by evaporation terrestrial 74 up arrow gets just as much down terrestrial 74 in the arrow on the right. So, no, evaporation doesn’t cool or warm the surface since has no net effect on the surface control volume (adiabatic!). As Stephen so often says, adiabatic means what goes up must come down because no evaporation or lH release (rain) removes energy to space – only radiation does that from the bath of radiation below TOA. Here positive is down:
Terrestrial up is -24-78-390 net of solar down 168 = – 324 up
Terrestrial down 24+78+67+155 = + 324 down
Net zero, balanced give or take each month somewhere, somehow.
Since surface control volume energy flow balances up and down, means Tmean is nearly constant; this total irradiance energy flow is the Planck function I just posted integrated over the whole freq. spectrum in unit time unit area.

MikeB
April 9, 2014 3:26 pm

Trick,
Planck’s law describes the electromagnetic radiation emitted by a black body in thermal equilibrium at a definite temperature. (Wikipedia)
Now look it up and then write it down.
It’s rather like discussing with DirkH, I say something right, he and you say something wrong.
Goodnight.

Trick
April 9, 2014 5:12 pm

MikeB 3:26pm: You do sometimes find textbook treatments of blackbody radiation in which it is stated (or implied) that the walls of the cavity must be black. This is not true. All that is required for a cavity to be filled with blackbody radiation is that the cavity be opaque and have a nonzero emissivity (and hence absorptivity) at all wavelengths which is true for all real material.
A cavity with walls that are not black nevertheless fills with blackbody radiation because of emission and multiple reflections. Thus if we fashion a cavity from a material that is neither black nor 100% reflecting at any wavelength, the radiation contained therein is still blackbody radiation.
To learn how that can be in detail urge you (& Willis) to ref. Bohren 2006 sec. 1.4.1, the third ref. listed by wiki. Wiki top post is good starting point but always suspect as it is not the original author, need to read the cites.

Editor
April 9, 2014 5:28 pm

Trick says:
April 9, 2014 at 12:57 pm

Willis 11:53am:

“Neither of those claims is true. Not all matter radiates, and when it does, it doesn’t do so at all frequencies.It doesn’t radiate at all in the thermal range….Your claims are simply not true. While most matter radiates, not all matter radiates, and the matter that does radiate does so at certain frequencies, not at “all frequencies” … this is basic stuff.”

Yes basic. Argon does radiate in the thermal range. Max Planck taught us all matter radiates all the time, at all frequencies, there are no exceptions. Willis I am a poor teacher obviously. Don’t just listen to me. Please get out a text book on radiation – if you find something different please advise. We talked about this before. I will try better. These are not my opinions, this is basic science.
All matter radiates all the time – some so small as to be undetectable with today’s instruments (tomorrow’s, who knows?). Here is the energy distribution function (or spectral distribution) given by the Planck distribution function, you should find it too – containing speed of light, Boltzmann constant B, Planck’s constant h – these are all as fundamental as you can get in nature:
Pe(ω) =hω^3/4π^2c^2 * 1/(exp (ω/kBT ) − 1)
This is never 0 if it copied ok, don’t trust – look it up.

Trick, I think I see the problem. You started by making statements about objects in the real world. I responded by talking about objects in the real world.
But now, you are talking about Planck’s perfect theoretical black-body. You are correct that a theoretical blackbody radiates at all frequencies at all times … but that’s not what you said.
You said real-world objects do the same, which is totally untrue. GHG’s like water vapor and CO2, for example, have an emissivity which is frequency-dependent and confined to narrow absorption bands. And some gases, like argon, don’t even have those narrow absorption bands.
Here’s the short answer. In order to absorb thermal energy, a molecule has to have bonds that can shake and twist and flex and vibrate. When the photon of energy strikes the molecule it “rings” in a sense, that is to say it twists or flexes or vibrates, meaning that the energy has been absorbed and converted into the mechanical motion of twisting etc.
So whether or not a gas absorbs and emits thermal longwave depends on the kind of bonds it has between the molecules. O2, for example, hardly absorbs longwave. It only has one possible vibrational mode. This is the mode where the two atoms move closer and further from each other. It can’t twist, it’s symmetrical. And it can’t flex or scissor, because there’s only one bond. So the absorption bands are very narrow. And the same, of course, is true of N2 and H2 and every other diatomic gas. All of them only have one way to absorb thermal longwave radiation, so they don’t absorb much thermal IR, and that only within narrow bands.
Note that if the entire atmosphere were O2 and N2, there would be no greenhouse effect worth mentioning.
Fortunately for life, water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2 are much better able to absorb longwave. There are many more vibrational modes available—scissoring, twisting, flexing, and combinations of the above. And as a result, their absorption bands are wider, and there are more of them, than with any diatomic molecule. It’s simple physics, you have to have three atoms to be able to “scissor”, for example.
And more complex molecules like chlorofluorocarbons have many, many vibrational modes, so they absorb a lot over a very broad range.
But argon is an oddball. It’s kind of like the theoretical “anti-blackbody”. We’ve seen that gases absorb thermal longwave based on the number of atoms and thus the number of bonds between them. We see that as gas molecules get simpler and simpler with fewer and fewer atoms, they absorb less and less thermal longwave radiation, in narrower and narrower absorption bands. This is a consequence of the reducing number of vibrational modes available to absorb the energy … but argon has no bonds at all. And as a result, it has no possible vibrational modes of any kind, no physical way to absorb the impinging longwave energy …
And this means that instead of the narrow absorption bands of O2 and N2, argon has no thermal longwave absorption bands at all.
Now, many folks were taught (as was I) that everything radiates … and with the exception of monatomic gases that’s true. Of course, when we were taught it generally it was in the context of discussing solids … and there aren’t many monatomic solids. So rather than this oddball exception being noted, we were given the simplified version.
Not only that, but all solids have basically infinite numbers of molecules and bonds, which means all possible vibrational modes, and so yes, as we were taught and as you say they emit at virtually all frequencies at all times. The mass of their emissions will follow a Planck curve and be centered around some frequency, and (quantum effects aside) as you point out it won’t go to zero anywhere.
But it’s not true for monatomic gases, or for gases in general. Most gases are very simple molecules, and instead of following the Planck curve they only can absorb (and by Kirchoff’s Law, emit) in discrete narrow absorption frequency bands … or in the case of monatomic gases, they have no absorption bands at all for themal longwave.
Best regards,
w.
PS—note that higher temperatures contain enough energy to knock electrons to different orbits. This mode of energy absorption is not available at typical surface temperatures on Earth, not enough energy.
So indeed there are absorption lines in the spectrum for argon … but they’re at temperatures of hundreds and hundreds of degrees, not anywhere near the earth-like temperatures of the thermal radiation we are discussing.

Trick
April 9, 2014 5:52 pm

Willis 5:28pm: “But now, you are talking about Planck’s perfect theoretical black-body.”
No I am not. A black body (of Kirchhoff actually) does not exist in nature, all bodies that exist in nature reflect some incident radiation unlike a true theoretical black body which absorbs 100%. I am talking about all real matter – gaseous, liquid, or solid – at all temperatures emit radiation of allfrequencies at all times, although in varying amounts. There is no exception. Urge you to consult a basic text on radiation.
Argon exists in nature so it emits & absorbs & reflects. Ar is not 100% transparent; Ar will attenuate a photon beam whether an instrument can measure the attenuation or not. No exceptions.

Robert Clemenzi
April 9, 2014 6:02 pm

Stephen Wilde says:
April 8, 2014 at 7:31 am

Roy thinks that a non radiative atmosphere would tend towards isothermal and that convection would cease.
I think he is wrong in that because one cannot suppress convection where the surface is unevenly heated and KE converts to PE with height leading to a temperature decline with height without needing radiative losses from height.
With no radiative losses from within the atmosphere there would still be convection and it would be more vigorous in order to maintain top of atmosphere energy loss from the surface alone.

Please explain, if heat continues to enter the atmosphere, and there are no radiative loses, what would the temperature profile be?

Bart
April 9, 2014 6:22 pm

Trick says:
April 9, 2014 at 5:52 pm
And, you are wrong. I urge you to consult a basic text on quantum mechanics.

Curt
April 9, 2014 6:22 pm

Trick: You really must learn how to present a coherent argument. You cite an equation for the ideal blackbody radiation to back up your argument that “all real matter at all temperatures emit radiation of all frequencies at all times”. When you are called on this, you say that you weren’t talking about blackbodies.
In the context of this post, which is talking about the amounts of different energy transfers, the distinction between whether the argon in the atmosphere absorbs 0.000% or 0.001% of the thermal infrared from the surface is absolutely irrelevant.

Trick
April 9, 2014 6:35 pm

Curt 6:22pm: – The 0.000% is not possible in nature, but true, whatever the absorption is for earth it is negligible. Willis had made up a thought experiment of an argon atm. in which case absorption is not negligible. True, I’m not the best teacher and badly need an editor, urge consult a good text that benefits from having both.
Bart 6:22pm: – An atom has mass, can spin, a photon has angular momentum, urge you to look into the quantum of spin rates conserving the angular momentum when spontaneous absorption/emission occurs.

gbaikie
April 9, 2014 6:50 pm

-Here’s the short answer. In order to absorb thermal energy, a molecule has to have bonds that can shake and twist and flex and vibrate. When the photon of energy strikes the molecule it “rings” in a sense, that is to say it twists or flexes or vibrates, meaning that the energy has been absorbed and converted into the mechanical motion of twisting etc.-
All matter has bonds which are affected by energies. Solids and liquid are a state of matter which have more variety of bonds which can shake and twist and flex and vibrate.
Molecules of gas are matter in which molecules which are moving, analogous to bullets. Bullets without friction, and in Earth’s atmosphere the molecules of nitrogen are traveling [or have average velocity] a bit faster than bullets.
And molecule of gas not moving has the temperature of absolute zero.
So if given enough energy [heat] a brick’s molecules will go from more or less staying in one spot, to flying apart- becoming gas.
But like race cars in traffic jam, gas molecules in our troposphere don’t not zoom around in terms going any distance, instead they are frictionlessly crashing into each other in factions of nanoseconds.
So in analogous traffic jam, it’s times billions and billions of cars and one has a 3-d traffic jam.
If count up the number of nitrogen molecules which equal mass of fired bullet, this amount of nitrogen gas has more kinetic energy than the bullet- as it’s going at around 400 m/s [892 mph]. And nitrogen gas is molecules of two: N2. Two atoms of nitrogen which are bond together. Though if it one adds enough heat/energy they will fly apart- becoming the 4th state of matter, called plasma.
So difference between solid brick and gas, is if you put brick in vacuum it stays where you put it, whereas N2 gas flies apart at about 400 m/s. And how fast the gas goes is how warm the gas is and speed of brick or bits of brick do not have anything to do with how warm the solid brick is.

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