'Correcting' Trenberth et al.

(See the note below before taking this post seriously – Anthony)

Guest essay by Steven Wilde

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Here we see the classic energy budget analysis supporting the hypothesis that the surface of the Earth is warmer than the S-B equation would predict due to 324 Wm2 of ‘Back Radiation’ from the atmosphere to the surface.

It is proposed that it is Back Radiation that lifts the surface temperature from 255K, as predicted by S-B, to the 288K actually observed because the 324 Back Radiation exceeds the surface radiation to the air of 222 Wm2 ( 390 Wm2 less 168 Wm2) by 102 Wm2. It is suggested that there is a net radiative flow from atmosphere to surface of 102 Wm2.

I now discuss an alternative possibility.

The portions I wish to focus on are:

i) 390 Wm2 Surface Radiation to atmosphere

ii) 78 Wm2 Evapo-transpiration surface to atmosphere

iii) 24 Thermals surface to atmosphere

iv) 324 Back Radiation atmosphere to surface

The budget needs to be amended as follows:

The 78 Wm2 needs to be corrected to zero because the moist adiabatic lapse rate during ascent is less than the dry lapse rate on adiabatic descent which ensures that after the first convective cycle there is as much energy back at the surface as before Evapo-transpiration began.

The 24 Wm2 for thermals needs to be corrected to zero because dry air that rises in thermals then warms back up to the original temperature on descent.

Therefore neither ii) nor iii) should be included in the radiative budget at all. They involve purely non radiative means of energy transfer and have no place in the radiative budget since, being net zero, they do not cool the surface. AGW theory and the Trenberth diagram incorrectly include them as a net surface cooling influence.

Furthermore, they cannot reduce Earth’s surface temperature below 255K because both conduction and convection are slower methods of energy transmission than radiation. To reduce the surface temperature below 255K they would have to work faster than radiation which is obviously not so.

They can only raise a surface temperature above the S-B expectation and for Earth that is 33K.

Once the first convective overturning cycle has been completed neither Thermals nor Evapo-transpiration can have any additional warming effect at the surface provided mass, gravity and insolation remain constant.

As regards iv) the correct figure for the radiative flux from atmosphere to surface should be 222 Wm2 because items ii) and iii) should not have been included.

That also leaves the surface to atmosphere radiative flux at 222 Wm2 which taken with the 168 Wm2 absorbed directly by the surface comes to the 390 Wm2 required for radiation from the surface.

The rest of the energy budget diagram appears to be correct.

So, how to decide whether my interpretation is accurate?

I think it is generally accepted that the lapse rate slope marks the points in the atmosphere where there is energy balance within molecules that are at the correct height for their temperature.

Since the lapse rate slope intersects with the surface it follows that DWIR equals UWIR for a zero net radiative balance if a molecule at the surface is at the correct temperature for its height. If it is not at the correct surface temperature it will simply move towards the correct height by virtue of density variations in the horizontal plane (convection).

Thus, 222 UWIR at the surface should equal 222 DWIR at the surface AND 222 plus 168 should add up to 390 and, of course, it does.

AGW theory erroneously assumes that Thermals and Evapo-transpiration have a net cooling effect on the surface and so they have to uplift the radiative exchange at the surface from 222 Wm2 to 324 Wm2 and additionally they assume that the extra 102 Wm2 is attributable to a net radiative flux towards the surface from the atmosphere.

The truth is that there is no net flow of radiation in any direction at the surface once the air at the surface is at its correct temperature for its height, which is 288K and not 255K. The lapse rate intersecting at the surface tells us that there can be no net radiative flux at the surface when surface temperature is at 288K.

A rise in surface temperature above the S-B prediction is inevitable for an atmosphere capable of conducting and convection because those two processes introduce a delay in the transmission of radiative energy through the system. Conduction and convection are a function of mass held within a gravity field.

Energy being used to hold up the weight of an atmosphere via conduction and convection is no longer available for radiation to space since energy cannot be in two places at once.

The greenhouse effect is therefore a product of atmospheric mass rather than radiative characteristics of constituent molecules as is clearly seen when the Trenberth diagram is corrected and the lapse rate considered.

Since one can never have more than 390 Wm2 at the surface without increasing conduction and convection via changes in mass, gravity or insolation a change in the quantity of GHGs cannot make any difference. All they can do is redistribute energy within the atmosphere.

There is a climate effect from the air circulation changes but, due to the tiny proportion of Earth’s atmospheric mass comprised of GHGs, too small to measure compared to natural variability.

What Happens When Radiative Gases Increase Or Decrease?

Applying the above correction to the Trenberth figures we can now see that 222 Wm2 radiation from the surface to the atmosphere is simply balanced by 222 Wm2 radiation from the atmosphere to the surface. That is the energy being constantly expended by the surface via conduction and convection to keep the weight of the atmosphere off the surface. We must ignore it for the purpose of energy transmission to space since the same energy cannot be in two places at once.

We then have 168 Wm2 left over at the surface which represents energy absorbed by the surface after 30 Wm2 has been reflected from the surface , 77 Wm2 has been reflected by the atmosphere and 67 Wm2 has been absorbed by the atmosphere before it reaches the surface.

That 168 Wm2 is then transferred to the atmosphere by conduction and convection leaving a total of 235 Wm2 in the atmosphere (168 plus 67).

It is that 235 Wm2 that must escape to space if radiative balance is to be maintained.

Now, remember that the lapse rate slope represents the positions in the atmosphere where molecules are at their correct temperature for their height.

At any given moment convection arranges that half the mass of the atmosphere is too warm for its height and half the mass is too cold for its height.

The reason for that is that the convective process runs out of energy to lift the atmosphere any higher against gravity when the two halves equalise.

It must follow that at any given time half of the GHGs must be too warm for their height and the other half too cold for their height.

That results in density differentials that cause the warm molecules to rise and the cold molecules to fall.

If a GHG molecule is too warm for its height then DWIR back to the surface dominates but the molecule rises away from the surface and cools until DWIR again equals UWIR.

If a GHG molecule is too cold for its height then UWIR to space dominates but the molecule then falls until DWIR again equals UWIR.

The net effect is that any potential for GHGs to warm or cool the surface is negated by the height changes relative to the slope of the adiabatic lapse rate.

Let’s now look at how that outgoing 235 Wm2 is dealt with if radiative gas concentrations change.

It is recognised that radiative gases tend to reduce the size of the Atmospheric Window (40 Wm2) so we will assume a reduction from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2 by way of example.

If that happens then DWIR for molecules that are too warm for their height will increase but the subsequent rise in height will cause the molecule to rise above its correct position along the lapse rate slope with UWIR to space increasing at the expense of DWIR back to the surface and rising will only stop when DWIR again equals UWIR.

Since UWIR to space increases to compensate for the shrinking of the atmospheric window (from 40 Wm2 to 35 Wm2) the figure for radiative emission from the atmosphere will increase from 165 to 170 which keeps the system in balance with 235 Wm2 still outgoing.

If the atmosphere had no radiative capability at all then radiative emission from the atmosphere would be zero but the Atmospheric Window would release 235 Wm2 from the surface.

If the atmosphere were 100% radiative then the Atmospheric Window from the surface would be zero and the atmosphere would radiate the entire 235 Wm2.

==============================================================

Note: I’m glad to see a number of people pointing out how flawed the argument is. Every once in awhile we need to take a look at the ‘Slayer’ mentality of thinking about radiative balance, just to keep sharp on the topic. At first I thought this should go straight into the hopper, and then I thought it might make some good target practice, so I published it without any caveat.

Readers did not disappoint.

Now you can watch the fun as they react over at PSI.  – Anthony

P.S. Readers might also enjoy my experiment on debunking the PSI light bulb experiment, and note the reactions in comments, entirely opposite to this one. New WUWT-TV segment: Slaying the ‘slayers’ with Watts

Update: Let me add that the author assuredly should have included a link to the underlying document, Earth’s Global Energy Budget by Kiehl and Trenberth …

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gbaikie
April 9, 2014 6:05 am

— Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 3:40 am
Strange that so much abuse should be heaped on someone who just points out that the well established physics of adiabatic heating on descent might make the assumption of net DWIR at the surface inappropriate.
Strange, too, that it should come from fellow sceptics.–
We tend to have our pet theories:)
And we are skeptical of stuff.
For instance I believe that Earth’s ocean is large factor which determines
Earth’s average temperature.
And these energy budget’s don’t say anything about ocean and land. And
also think the tropics gets most of sunlight and the tropics warms the rest of planet.
Which again, such averaged global energy budget don’t address.
But in terms Venus, I think it is mostly this adiabatic heating on descent that explains why it’s so hot.
But I had not considered this same mechanism on Earth as a factor which causes warming.
But rather, more of a factor that reduces cooling. So rather than causal factor or “forcing”, in regard to Earth it would be a more of a result or consequence of warming. So during the night time one has such “adiabatic heating on descent” being one element involved.
And seeing it as mostly related to the amount atmosphere over your head- which is about 10 tonnes per square meter. So I would have regarded such tonnage as making a significant difference in terms of how cool the night could get.
Whereas If one different world where there was only 5 tonnes per square meter over your head, I would assume the nights would cool faster as the result of such less mass. And 20 tonnes would have less cooling at night.
But not really related to how warm it caused the planet to be.
Or contrary to it of being cooler average temperature, I would think the 5 ton atmosphere would causee earth like world to be warmer, as one simply gets solar energy warming the surface. Which I would guess is a larger factor when it’s balanced against the more rapid cooling at night.
Now, in terms causing the planet to warm, I assume having world 70% ocean surface, would cause higher amount of this forcing as compared to a world no oceans. Or at least by having lots of moist air, increase this warming effect?
Or would planet Dune have more of this or same as compared to Earth?

Leonard Weinstein
April 9, 2014 6:22 am

gbaikie says:
April 9, 2014 at 6:05 am
You are making the same error as Wilde. The adiabatic heating is a fact for suitable mixed atmospheres, but the adiabatic variation is a GRADIENT, not temperature level. The temperature level is set by the location of the effective average altitude of net outgoing radiation to space that balances the net absorbed solar radiation (absorbed on the ground and in the atmosphere). Without an absorbing gas or aerosols, the radiation to space occurs from the ground level, and this sets the ground temperature. The temperature then drops below that level with increasing altitude due to the adiabatic expansion of dropping pressure. If there are absorbing gases and clouds and aerosols, this effective average location of radiation to space occurs at higher altitude, and adiabatic heating below that altitude assures the ground will be hotter than without the absorbing atmosphere, as on Venus and Earth.

April 9, 2014 6:42 am

Leonard Weinstein says:
April 9, 2014 at 6:22 am
About that higher altitude for radiation to space:
“It can be seen from the infra-red cooling model of Figure 19 that the greenhouse effect theory predicts a strong influence from the greenhouse gases on the barometric temperature profile. Moreover, the modelled net effect of the greenhouse gases on infra-red cooling varies substantially over the entire atmospheric profile.
However, when we analysed the barometric temperature profiles of the radiosondes in this paper, we were unable to detect any influence from greenhouse gases. Instead, the profiles were very well described by the thermodynamic properties of the main atmospheric gases, i.e., N 2 and O 2 , in a gravitational field.”
“While water vapour is a greenhouse gas, the effects of water vapour on the temperature profile did not appear to be related to its radiative properties, but rather its different molecular structure and the latent heat released/gained by water in its gas/liquid/solid phase changes.
For this reason, our results suggest that the magnitude of the greenhouse effect is very small, perhaps negligible. At any rate, its magnitude appears to be too small to be detected from the archived radiosonde data.”
Open Peer Rev. J., 2014; 19 (Atm. Sci.), Ver. 0.1. http://oprj.net/articles/atmospheric-science/19 page 18 of 28

April 9, 2014 6:56 am

Leonard Weinstein said:
“If there are absorbing gases and clouds and aerosols, this effective average location of radiation to space occurs at higher altitude, and adiabatic heating below that altitude assures the ground will be hotter than without the absorbing atmosphere, as on Venus and Earth.”
It is that assumption that the surface would be hotter in the presence of absorbing gases and clouds which is the issue.
With no radiative gases the effective radiating height would be the ground and with 100% effective radiation the effective radiating height would be at the top of the atmosphere so it is true to assert that absorbing gases and clouds raise the effective radiating height.
But does it follow that the surface is any hotter ?
Only if one sticks slavishly to the lapse rate slope as it would be with no absorbing gases or clouds.
If they change the slope then changed height need not change surface temperature.
I would say that, because the system is not being supplied with any additional energy from outside, the rise in height is INSTEAD OF a rise in surface temperature because with absorbing gases and clouds more of the energy absorbed and emitted can be dealt with by the atmosphere without involving the surface.
What would happen in practice is that for dry air the lapse rate slope would change away from the ideal slope on the ascent part of the convective cycle and change the opposite way on the descent part of the cycle so each would cancel out.
We can see from the vertical thermal profile of Earth’s atmosphere that radiative gases do distort the lapse rate slopes. The reversed slope in the stratosphere is a prime example which is due entirely to the powerful radiative presence of ozone.
Convection would change so as to net out the changed slopes on both the ascent and the descent and in doing so would regulate the rate of energy flow through the system so as to offset the thermal effect of the absorbing gases and clouds.
We can see with water vapour that the slope on the ascent and the slope on the descent need not be the same.
Convection would juggle the proportions of energy flowing to space from the atmosphere itself and through the Atmospheric window from the surface which is something I pointed out above.
But this is going way beyond the point of my essay which was to draw attention to the fact that adiabatic warming on descent should be shown as an offset to Thermals and Evapo-transpiration in the K & T diagram which means that the extra 102 Wm2 of DWIR constitutes double counting.
The aversion here to considering adiabatic warming on descent as an offset to cooling on ascent will be seen as a major error in due course.

Eric Barnes
April 9, 2014 7:12 am

Thanks for the link Ron.
Under Acknowledgements …
“No funding was received for this research.”
You had to know it would be that way. 🙂

Trick
April 9, 2014 8:32 am

Stephen 7:36pm: ”Gliders don’t rise under a descending air column…what goes up must come down. No solar heating, no convection.”
Good; then you accept the notion top post cartoon is correct after all since the 24 and 78 flow observed go up for gliding and hydrological as shown in the cartoon then 24 and 78 observed come down as shown in the cartoon. No correction to zero for 24 and 78 flow needed after all. In non-adiabatic reality also need to comply with entropy consideration.

Slartibartfast
April 9, 2014 8:38 am

This effect (GHE/Backradiation, whatever you want to name it) simply delays the flow of energy through the Sun/Earth/Atmosphere/Universe system by causing some of the energy to make multiple passes through the system.

So please go ahead and educate me about radiation flowing through a system, I’d love to hear your ideas.

Unless you have some notions about cooler objects not being able to radiate to warmer ones, I don’t think we have any important areas of disagreement.
That’s my issue with “backradiation” as a distinction. It’s not that matter doesn’t radiate; it is (instead) that it does. Always. In all directions. Without regard to the thermal mass that it’s radiating toward.
If you don’t understand why this would even be a question, go take a peek at the “Slaying the Slayers, Part II” thread that I linked to upthread here. It was a truly bizarre conversation.

April 9, 2014 8:38 am

Eric Barnes says:
April 9, 2014 at 7:12 am
So true Eric. I am struck by the general lack of curiosity here about this line of research. These papers, to which I have no connection, appear to be serious and rigorous research. Their only flaw seems to be they present evidence that casts doubt on a piece of conventional climate theory.
It’s an open peer review website, and I have found the authors to be engaging and knowledgeable about their work. People with stronger backgrounds should post their assessments there, and we would all be wiser for it.

pochas
April 9, 2014 8:53 am

Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 6:56 am
“The aversion here to considering adiabatic warming on descent as an offset to cooling on ascent will be seen as a major error in due course.”
You can’t accept the fact that a parcel of air that has arrived at 15000 feet and cooled by radiation from T1 to T2 will still retain the difference T1 – T2 on the way down?

April 9, 2014 9:01 am

pochas
You can’t accept that air warms on the way down ?
Here is a link to information on adiabatic warming:
http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter6/adiab_warm.html
You can readily see that air with a temperature of 10C at 700 mb warms to 25C at 1000 mb with no energy added or removed. It is all done from reconversion of PE to KE.
It doesn’t retain the energy lost by radiation but that gets replaced by new solar energy arriving at the surface.
Most of the conducted energy is in the adiabatic exchange as PE and the higher you go the more is in PE form which does not radiate so only a portion leaks out to space via radiation.

April 9, 2014 9:58 am

Trick,
The diagram shows 24 and 78 leaving the surface with 24 and 78 arriving higher up in the atmosphere.
It does not show a balanced two way process otherwise no one in this thread would be arguing with me when I say it should be a two way process.
The arrows go up and do not come down.

Leonard Weinstein
April 9, 2014 10:09 am

Stephen, you still don’t get it. The convection due to buoyancy and turbulent mixing maintain the adiabatic lapse rate (as modified by condensing moisture, i.e., wet adiabatic lapse rate) even with the shift in location in radiation to space. As pointed out, this radiation actually occurs over the entire altitude, but there is an effective average location for simplicity of calculation sake. You would not expect a change in this GRADIENT, only a shift in level due to so called greenhouse gas effects. The missing so called hot spot is a different issue and depends on assumptions of strong non-equilibrium.

Trick
April 9, 2014 10:10 am

Stephen 9:58am: “The arrows go up and do not come down.”
They do come down in the cartoon just as you write they must – not broken out of the bath total, have to read the narrative. The 24 and 78 come down as components of the down arrow last one on the right, toward surface sign convention positive:
24+78+67+155=324

pochas
April 9, 2014 10:11 am

Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 9:01 am
“You can readily see that air with a temperature of 10C at 700 mb warms to 25C at 1000 mb with no energy added or removed.”
Wrong, Stephen. Warming air from 10C to 25C is not an adiabatic process. Look up the heat capacity for air, Cp at 1 atm, and multiply by the temperature difference. That’s the energy added. Crack a textbook, look up the Carnot cycle, study it and work the problems. When you get the answers right (requires prior understanding of enthalpy, entropy, heat capacity, the gamma function) consider the analogy between convection and a Carnot cycle with perfect efficiency.

pochas
April 9, 2014 10:38 am

Ok, Stephen, I apologize. You were pointing out correctly that a gas after an adiabatic expansion will have the same energy content as before, and with that I agree. It’s what happens at the surface before the expansion (energy gain), and in the radiating zone after the expansion (energy loss) that counts, and an energy balance at any intermediate altitude will show this quantity as a net energy flow upward.

Editor
April 9, 2014 10:59 am

Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 9:58 am

Trick,
The diagram shows 24 and 78 leaving the surface with 24 and 78 arriving higher up in the atmosphere.
It does not show a balanced two way process otherwise no one in this thread would be arguing with me when I say it should be a two way process.
The arrows go up and do not come down.

Gadzooks, I get the opposite of this complaint all the time—people claiming that the radiation arrows in the diagram should show the NET flows, not individual flows up and down … and of course, you can show net flows, and many examples of global budgets do show that. Either one is fine. It’s like the difference between me giving you a hundred dollars and you giving me back seventy-five, and me giving you twenty-five dollars. Which ever way you do it is correct.

But now we get the other complaint from you, that the sensible and latent heat show the net flows, where they should show the individual flows. Wish folks would make up their minds.
In any case, Steven, the arrows do not need to go up and come down in order to show the net flows. That’s why they’re called net flows and not individual flows, because the one arrow shows the net of the two processes. If you have a problem with a single arrow showing the net of the processes, then I fear I can’t help you.
And in any case, whether we show net flows or individual flows is immaterial, as long as the flows are measured correctly.
w.

April 9, 2014 11:10 am

Trick said:
“The 24 and 78 come down as components of the down arrow last one on the right, toward surface sign convention positive:24+78+67+155=324.”
That is back radiation but the adiabatic process is not radiative.
Which is pretty much my point. The back radiation should be reduced by 102 Wm2 and a down arrow put in the non radiative section then the revised figures that I put forward apply with the surface warming due to mass and not radiative capability.
pochas said:
“It’s what happens at the surface before the expansion (energy gain), and in the radiating zone after the expansion (energy loss) that counts, and an energy balance at any intermediate altitude will show this quantity as a net energy flow upward.”
Not quite, there is no energy loss or gain within the adiabatic process, merely conversion of KE to PE (heat loss) and back again (heat gain).
If the atmosphere has radiative capability then radiative energy loss will occur from within the adiabatic process but will be replaced by more conduction from the surface to keep the temperature at 288K.
If the atmosphere lacks radiative capability then all the energy loss to space is via radiation directly from the surface at 288K. It can’t drop back to 255K because the mass of the atmosphere will still conduct and convect though I accept that even luminaries such as Roy Spencer and Anthony still think that the atmosphere would trend isothermal and convection would fade away.
That cannot happen where the surface is unevenly heated and temperature still declines with height due to conversion of KE to PE with height. That still happens even without GHGs.
Either way, the surface temperature is unaffected by the adiabatic portion of the convective energy exchange once the first convective cycle has completed (whereupon the surface temperature settles at 288K). The back radiation figure must then be reduced from 324 to 222 (otherwise it is double counting) which then balances with radiation of 222 from surface to atmosphere thus no surface warming from back radiation.
The frustrating thing for me is that I can see just what points Anthony and the naysayers are failing to grasp but I cannot get it across to a mindset that is focused on radiative balances alone.

April 9, 2014 11:19 am

Willis said:
“That’s why they’re called net flows and not individual flows, because the one arrow shows the net of the two processes”
You can’t have a net flow within a reversible adiabatic process. The ascent and the descent involve no addition or removal of energy.
You could say that there is a net radiative upward flow incorporated within the adiabatic exchange but those arrows cannot be that because K & T already have the outgoing 165 from the atmosphere and 30 from clouds to space as a separate pair of numbers higher up in the diagram.
Having allocated the 165 and 30 to the radiative flow out to space the 24 and 78 must be the adiabatic portion which must always be net zero. You said yourself that the adiabatic process is ‘a wash’.
And so it is.

Editor
April 9, 2014 11:25 am

Stephen writes:

That loss [radiation to space of heat released in the mid-atmosphere by condensation] is already in the diagram in the numbers 165 and 30 going out to space so the other figures of 24 and 78 can only be the adiabatic element that stays in the system and returns to the surface. An adiabatic process with no new energy added or energy lost is fully reversible.

That is not how I read Trenberth’s diagram. The 24 and 78 numbers are clearly marked as energy transfers from the surface to “absorbed by atmosphere.” From there part of this warmth from convection and condensation gets released to space as part of the 165 and 30 numbers. The diagram shows two legs to the energy flow from surface to space. I think Stephen is just misinterpreting when he says that the numbers on the bottom leg stay in the system and return to the surface. Some returns to the surface through, as Trenberth models it, “back-radiation,” and some radiates out into space.
I see no reason to think from the diagram that Trenberth is misinterpreting adiabatic warming and cooling as movements of energy. Does he actually say this? Stephen seems to be saying that this is implied: “so the other figures of 24 and 78 can only be the adiabatic element that stays in the system and returns to the surface” (emphasis added). But no, they can also be (and are clearly marked in the diagram to be) just the first leg of the journey from surface to atmosphere to space, with some not making it out into space but coming back to the surface via “back-radiation” (which doesn’t make the surface warmer than it was but rather slows down its rate of heat loss, making it warmer than it otherwise would be).
Whether this criticism is right or wrong, there is no scorn in it. We love Stephen! It just looks to me like he made a goof up this time out that he should have caught, something we all have to worry about, and naturally have great sympathy for.

JustAnotherPoster
April 9, 2014 11:27 am

Again no one seems to have actually answered the dumb question I asked a while ago…….
Greenhouse gases have existed for millions of years in our atmpsphere. The processes of ‘back radiation’ therefore must have been occurring for millions of years, as posed by the diagram, if that’s the theory on how our atmpsphere works…
Why isn’t our atmosphere already hot and or Venus like ?
All things being equal adding more C02 or other gases into the atmosphere should increase the temperature by the process of ‘back radiation’ according to the GHG theory.
But the problem is…. This should have been occurring for millions of years a these gases and the sun have been running these processes for millions of years.
Why isn’t the planet much much hotter now ?

April 9, 2014 11:28 am

[snip Venus is off-topic -mod]

Trick
April 9, 2014 11:28 am

Willis 10:59am: “Which ever way you do it is correct.” As result but not as a process in either accounting nature or physical nature.
Your CPA will record both $revenue and $expense to calculate the net flow = $pre-tax profit. Both flows are real. Flows may be cash or non-cash but are real and have a sign convention. I would argue if show just the net then material information is lost like checks in the mail – just what was that revenue anyway – didja’ hide some cash income on the side?
Likewise in nature all matter radiates ceaselessly at all frequencies, there is no exception ever found. Even at absolute zero? Absolute zero is unattainable. So your top picture shows the real story in nature when applied to radiation fields & accounting. In physics, the space in between is a photon bath of radiation. This is material, if just show net some photons disappear from universe energy supply for a short time.

Editor
April 9, 2014 11:31 am

Stephen Wilde says:
April 9, 2014 at 11:19 am

Willis said:

“That’s why they’re called net flows and not individual flows, because the one arrow shows the net of the two processes”

You can’t have a net flow within a reversible adiabatic process. The ascent and the descent involve no addition or removal of energy.

So what if the ascent and descent of the air itself don’t move energy? The movement of latent heat from the surface to the atmosphere most definitely involves a removal of energy from the surface to the atmosphere. You seem to think all of that energy is returned to the surface … but how, for example, is the energy removed by evaporation returned to the surface?
It certainly is not returned by the “ascent and the descent” of the air. You are correct that other things being equal, the ascent and descent of the air doesn’t move energy.
But the evaporation and condensation of the water most definitely move energy.
Steven, what you are saying is that EVAPORATION DOESN’T COOL THE SURFACE. That is truly industrial-strength foolishness. How could it be that evaporation cools humans, and cools my coffee, and cools a lake of water, but doesn’t cool the planetary surface? That’s absolute nonsense.
Like I said above, you have some zany substitutes for physics on your planet … but here on this planet, evaporation cools the surface. So you’d better set about modifying your theory to accept that fact, or you will continue to be laughed at for the remainder of your scientific career as the fool who thinks that evaporation doesn’t cool the surface because the heat lost is magically somehow returned to the surface …
w.

April 9, 2014 11:43 am

Leonard Weinstein said:
“The convection due to buoyancy and turbulent mixing maintain the adiabatic lapse rate (as modified by condensing moisture, i.e., wet adiabatic lapse rate) even with the shift in location in radiation to space”
If you recall, I did say that the convection due to buoyancy and turbulent mixing alter the vertical temperature profile to negate the effects of GHGs.
In doing so, the adiabatic lapse rate overall is indeed maintained as you say but that does not mean that you can automatically back calculate the surface temperature from any new effective emission height using the adiabatic lapse rate.
The slope of the adiabatic lapse rate from surface to space may be maintained overall but you will still get variations in the slopes on the way up through all the various atmospheric layers.
The Earth’s slope is in the form of a large ‘W’ laying on its side which gives lots of scope for layer to layer variability and counterbalancing.
So GHGs can still distort the ambient lapse rate slope and raise the effective emission height where they are present but yet leave surface temperature unaffected because adjustments to the slopes elsewhere in the atmosphere maintain the ‘ideal’ adiabatic slope in the background.
Furthermore they can distort the slope in equal and opposite directions even within their own layer and if that happens you wouldn’t even get a change in the emission height because the distortion on the ascent would be offset by the distortion on the descent.
Warm molecules rising push the effective emission height upwards but cold molecules falling push the effective emission height downwards and that can happen at different locations within a single layer.
You must realise that the atmosphere is a dynamic energy balancing machine of considerable complexity but simple fundamentals using a combination of radiative and non radiative processes which each adjust for variations in the other.
How else could Willis come to perceive that there is a thermostatic mechanism ?
It isn’t just about tropical thunderstorms 🙂

Editor
April 9, 2014 11:53 am

Trick says:
April 9, 2014 at 11:28 am

Willis 10:59am: “Which ever way you do it is correct.” As result but not as a process in either accounting nature or physical nature.
Your CPA will record both $revenue and $expense to calculate the net flow = $pre-tax profit. Both flows are real. Flows may be cash or non-cash but are real and have a sign convention. I would argue if show just the net then material information is lost like checks in the mail – just what was that revenue anyway – didja’ hide some cash income on the side?

So we are in agreement that the result is correct either way. As you point out, to do the calculations to get the correct answer we need to look at individual flows. But if all we care about is the net, we can look at either one. Steven Wilde above says that the net latent heat loss from the surface is zero … so since he’s talking about the net, the K/T diagram is adequate, since it shows the net loss.
Trick, do you think that evaporation DOESN’T cool the surface? Because that’s Steven’s claim, whether we talk about net flows or individual flows.

Likewise in nature all matter radiates ceaselessly at all frequencies, there is no exception ever found.

Neither of those claims is true. Not all matter radiates, and when it does, it doesn’t do so at all frequencies.
First, all matter doesn’t radiate ceaselessly. Most does, to be sure, but there are exceptions. Take for example argon gas. It doesn’t radiate at all in the thermal range. Simply put, it is not a “greenhouse gas” at earth-like temperatures—it doesn’t absorb longwave, and it doesn’t radiate longwave. Why not? Because it is a monatomic noble gas, a single symmetrical atom. As a result, there’s nothing to bend or flex or vibrate to absorb energy. Molecules absorb energy in those ways—the inter-atomic bonds stretch or twist or flex or vibrate. But there is no physical way that argon can do any of that—it doesn’t have inter-atomic bonds. As a result, it is physically incapable of either absorbing or radiating thermal infrared radiation like most materials can.
Second, those materials that do radiate absolutely do NOT “radiate … at all frequencies”. They radiate at certain, very specific frequencies related to both their absorption bands and their temperature.
Look, Trick. You get to have your own opinions. You don’t get to have your own physics. Before you start trying to school someone on these matters, you need to go to school yourself. Your claims are simply not true. While most matter radiates, not all matter radiates, and the matter that does radiate does so at certain frequencies, not at “all frequencies” … this is basic stuff.
w.

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