Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been listening to lots of stuff lately about tidal cycles. These exist, to be sure. However, they are fairly complex, and they only repeat (and even then only approximately) every 54 years 34 days. They also repeat (even more approximately) every 1/3 of that 54+ year cycle, which is 18 years 11 days 8 hours. This is called a “Saros cycle”. So folks talk about those cycles, and the 9 year half-Saros-cycle, and the like. The 54+ year cycle gets a lot of airtime, because people claim it is reflected in a sinusoidal approximately 54-year cycle in the for example the HadCRUT temperature records.
Now, I originally approached this tidal question from the other end. I used to run a shipyard in the Solomon Islands. The Government there was the only source of tide tables at the time, and they didn’t get around to printing them until late in the year, September or so. As a result, I had to make my own. The only thing I had for data was a printed version of the tide tables for the previous year.
What I found out then was that for any location, the tides can be calculated as a combination of “tidal constituents” of varying periods. As you might imagine, the strongest tidal constituents are half-daily, daily, monthly, and yearly. These represent the rotations of the earth, sun, and moon. There’s a list of the various tidal constituents here, none of which are longer than a year.
Figure 1. Total tidal force exerted on the Earth by the combination of the sun and the moon.
So what puzzled me even back then was, why are there no longer-period cycles used to predict the tides? Why don’t we use cycles of 18+ and 54.1 years to predict the tides?
Being a back to basics, start-from-the-start kind of guy, I reckoned that I’d just get the astronomical data, figure out the tidal force myself, and see what cycles it contains. It’s not all that complex, and the good folks at the Jet Propulsion Lab have done all the hard work with calculating the positions of the sun and moon. So off I went to JPL to get a couple hundred years data, and I calculated the tidal forces day by day. Figure 1 above shows a look at a section of my results:
These results were quite interesting to me, because they clearly show the two main influences (solar and lunar). Figure 1 also shows that the variations do not have a cycle of exactly a year—the high and low spots shift over time with respect to the years. Also, the maximum amplitude varies year to year.
For ease of calculation, I used geocentric (Earth centered) coordinates. I got the positions of the sun and moon for the same time each day from 1 January 2000 for the next 200 years, out to 1 Jan 2200. Then I calculated the tidal force for each of those days (math in the appendix). That gave me the result you see in Figure 1.
However, what I was interested in was the decomposition of the tidal force into its component cycles. In particular, I was looking for any 9 year, 18+ year, or 54.1 year cycles. So I did what you might expect. I did a Fourier analysis of the tidal cycles. Figure 2 shows those results at increasingly longer scales from top to bottom.
Figure 2. Fourier analysis of the tidal forces acting on the earth. Each succeeding graph shows a longer time period. Note the increasing scale.
The top panel shows the short-term components. These are strongest at one day, and at 29.5 days, with side peaks near the 29.5 day lunar cycle, and with weaker half-month cycles as well.
The second panel shows cycles out to 18 months. Note that the new Y-axis scale is eight times the old scale, to show the much smaller annual cycles. There are 12 month and 13.5 month cycles visible in the data, along with much smaller half-cycles (6 months and 6.75 months). You can see the difference in the scales by comparing the half-month (15 day) cycles in the top two panels.
The third panel shows cycles out to 20 years, to investigate the question of the 9 and 18+ year cycles … no joy, although there is the tiniest of cycles at about 8.75 years. Again, I’ve increased the scale, this time by 5X. You can visualize the difference by comparing the half-year (6-7 month) cycles in the second and third panels. At this scale, any 9 or 18+ year cycles would be very visible … bad news. There are no such cycles in decomposition of the data.
Finally, the fourth panel is the longest, to look for the 54 year cycle. Again, there is no such underlying sine-wave cycle.
Now, those last two panels were a surprise to me. Why are we not finding any 9, 18+, or 54 year cycle in the Fourier transform? Well … what I realized after considering this for a while is that there is not a slow sine wave fifty-four years in length in the data. Instead, the 54 years is just the length of time that goes by before a long, complex superposition of sine waves approximately repeats itself.
And the same thing is true about the 18-year Saros cycle. It’s not a gradual nine-year increase and subsequent nine-year decrease in the tidal force, as I had imagined it. Instead, it’s just the (approximate) repeat period of a complex waveform.
As a result, I fear that the common idea that the apparent ~60 year cycle in the HadCRUT temperatures is related to the 54-year tidal cycles simply isn’t true … because that 54 year repeating cycle is not a sine wave. Instead, looks like this:
Figure 3. The 54 year 34 day repetitive tidal cycle. This is the average of the 54-year 34-day cycles over the 200 years of data 2000-2200.
Now, as you can see, that is hardly the nice sine wave that folks would like to think modulates the HadCRUT4 temperatures …
This exemplifies a huge problem that I see happening. People say “OK, there’s an 18+ year Saros cycle, so I can divide that by 2. Then I’ll figure the beat frequency of that 9+ year cycle with the 8.55 year cycle of the precession of the lunar apsides, and then apply that to the temperature data …”
I’m sure that you can see the problems with that approach. You can’t take the Saros cycle, or the 54+ year cycle, and cut it in half and get a beat frequency against something else, because it’s not a sine wave, as people think.
Look, folks, with all the planets and moons up there, we can find literally hundreds and hundreds of varying length astronomical cycles. But the reality, as we see above, is not as simple as just grabbing frequencies that fit our theory, or making a beat frequency from two astronomical cycles.
So let me suggest that people who want to use astronomical cycles do what I did—plot out the real-life, actual cycle that you’re talking about. Don’t just grab the period of a couple of cycles, take the beat frequency, and call it good …
For example, if you want to claim that the combined tidal forces of Jupiter and Saturn on the sun have an effect on the climate, you can’t just grab the periods and fit the phase and amplitude to the HadCRUT data. Instead, you need to do the hard lifting, calculate the actual Jupiter-Saturn tidal forces on the sun, and see if it still makes sense.
Best regards to everyone, it’s still raining here. Last week, people were claiming that the existence of the California drought “proved” that global warming was real … this week, to hear them talk, the existence of the California floods proves the same thing.
In other words … buckle down, it’s gonna be a long fight for climate sanity, Godot’s not likely to show up for a while …
w.
THE USUAL: If you disagree with something that I or someone else said, please quote the exact words you disagree with, and tell us why. That way, we can all understand what you object to, and the exact nature of your objection.
CALCULATIONS: For ease of calculations, I downloaded the data for the sun and moon in the form of cartesian geocentric (Earth-centered) coordinates. This gave me the x, y, and z values for the moon and sun at each instant. I then calculated the distances as the square root of the sum of the squares of the xyz coordinates. The cosine of the angle between them at any instant is
(sun_x * moon_x + sun_y * moon_y + sun_z * moon_z) / (sun_distance * moon_distance)
and the combined tidal force is then
sqrt( sun_force^2 + moon_force^2 + 2* sun_force * moon_force * cos(angle))
DATA AND CODE: The original sun and moon data from JPL are here (moon) and here (sun), 20 Mb text files. The relevant data from those two files, in the form of a 13 Mb R “save()” file, is here and the R code is here.
EQUATIONS: The tidal force is equal to 2 * G * m1 * m2 * r / d^3, where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses of the two objects, d is the distance between them, and r is the radius of the object where we’re calculating the tides (assuming that r is much, much smaller than d).
A good derivation of the equation for tidal force is given here.
Greg says:
February 11, 2014 at 5:02 am
“Then get the direction of the vector as well as its size , project the NS cmpt and we may start to see the rest of the storey.”
1D to 2D to 3D. And then time/Lat-Long three vector contour plot. And that is before we add in Geography. And fluidics!…….
Where’s that super-computer.
RichardLH says:
February 11, 2014 at 5:20 am
“Where’s that super-computer.”
We’ve got ’em, but they’re too busy collecting data on American citizens and running useless computer models.
pochas says:
February 11, 2014 at 5:25 am
“We’ve got ‘em, but they’re too busy collecting data on American citizens and running useless computer models.”
“Programming – Modelling the World inside a Computer” – with apologies to Larry O’Brien.
I wonder what shape a sphere of water would assume in orbit (assuming it could remain liquid). I would guess it would be deformed by the gravity gradient in a radial direction but also sheared in the orthogonal direction because particles further away from the sun have lower orbital velocity.
pochas says:
February 11, 2014 at 5:40 am
“I wonder what shape a sphere of water would assume in orbit”
Add together as many of these diagrams as you need for the objects concerned, scaled appropriately for masses and distances.
Not with url attached
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Field_tidal.png
1D to 2D to 3D. And then time/Lat-Long three vector contour plot. And that is before we add in Geography. And fluidics!…….
Hey we’re not trying to model tides planet wide, just look for repetitive patterns in the driving forces.
I’m fairly sure once we extract the direction as well it will be informative.
Greg says:
February 11, 2014 at 6:12 am
“Hey we’re not trying to model tides planet wide, just look for repetitive patterns in the driving forces.”
If the long term deltas in the gravitation field vectors affect flow through, say, the Fram or Bering Straights, then we are looking for repetitive patterns in those most definitely.
Greg: P.S. That should be ‘directions’.
This is a 3D field in time at any spot on Earth. N-S, E-W and Up/Down. For both Sun And Moon. And spin axis related – not just orbital plane.
N-S, E-W and Up/Down.
All the sun/moon movements are at least an order smaller than the Earth rotation period, so I think E/W is a lot less important.
The arctic triplet showing ascending/descending lunar cycle affects ice raises the question of how that driver may vary over longer periods or interact with something else.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=757
Whether this atmospheric storms, cloud or Fram Straight flow would be good to know.
I think it was the Day paper that Willis lined a day or two ago that said there was a 15mm 18.6 year tide in Arctic. Most of that must go in and out of Fram Str.
14,056,000 km² x 15mm x SHC brine / 9.3 = ???
http://arctic-roos.org/observations/satellite-data/sea-ice/temperature-salinity-and-volume-fluxes-in-the-fram-strait
http://arctic-roos.org/observations/satellite-data/sea-ice/images/Fig_3_Mean_AW_temp_AW_inflow_1997-2008.jpg/image_large
In flow of atlantic water seems to have peaked in 2005 with temp dropping since 2007: which is when the melting trend started to ease up.
Greg says:
February 11, 2014 at 6:50 am
“I think it was the Day paper that Willis lined a day or two ago that said there was a 15mm 18.6 year tide in Arctic. Most of that must go in and out of Fram Str.”
I know. Multiply that 15mm up down by the area of the Artic Ocean and you have fairly non-trivial force to consider, even over 18.6 years. As I tried hard to bring to Willis attention in my posts above.
Then HE pointed out that Sunlight varies on a slow timescale in the Arctic bit failed to see the relevance of that to tidal vectors here on Earth!
And this is without considering the 4 year cycle for Solar (aka Leap Year). That is not a direct divisor of 18.6 so…..
Greg:
One simple plot that may well bring a lot more light to this long term periodicity is to do a plot from the North Pole. Up-Down and towards the Moon.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/on-identifying-inter-decadal-variation-in-nh-sea-ice/
RichardLH says:
February 11, 2014 at 6:17 am
If the long term deltas in the gravitation field vectors affect flow through, say, the Fram or Bering Straights, then we are looking for repetitive patterns in those most definitely.
North Atlantic SST exhibit a ~74 yr period which ties with a Lunar cyclicity:
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/the-moon-is-linked-to-long-term-atlantic-changes/
Tallbloke:
That fits surprising well!!!
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/200YearsofTemperatureSatelliteThermometerandProxy_zps0436b1f2.gif
So many strawmen, so little time. Did I mention ravel, unravel, or dust? You don’t follow your own rules of argument. Please quote where I mentioned those words.
Instead of just saying “I misspoke, my bad”, your defense is “a million wrongs make a right.”
By your “logic”, we can just toss out anything said in English, since English isn’t logical.
If your horse is riding off a cliff, I suppose you’ll just go over with it.
Am I picking a nit? Yes, absolutely. But when you present your views to the readers of the world, many of whom won’t be native English speakers, wouldn’t it be better not to confuse people with errors like that?
I hear ya, w…Mosh’s reply conveniently left out the link I included and he used the comment to compare electromagnetism to co2’s warming impact, which is mere wordplay to say see, apples and oranges are both fruit, so nevermind that the rind is entirely different, just bite in…I digress…
—-
Generally agreed that the tide-stuff is “tiny” but depending on the context, “tiny” can still have implications. Curious of opinions…
http://solarcycle24com.proboards.com/thread/324/theory-solar-cycle-www-sibet
——-
Might just be a good exercise in curve fitting, but the concept of the planets modulating tides on the sun to an extent (i.e. motion around barycenter) in turn having an (albeit minor) impact on the progression of the sunspot cycle seems to make some sense. Having a bunch of planets, especially the large ones, come into an out of phase resonance and retarding the cycles to an extent could have an impact on the field strengths, no?
If not, where else would these longer cycles of the sun be coming from? Seeing what happened to the jet stream after the sunspot funk, this idea makes sense to me. Merits, issues?
Charles-the-moderator.
I feel for you. The barycentric shift of the conversational center-of-mass at times seems to produce an antipodal harmonic that focuses soley on pronouns such as ‘I’, ‘you ‘ and ‘his’ (such as ‘I’ think ‘you’ did not understand ‘his’ methodology, therefore you are a moron). I’d imagine for you this must be difficult to accurately address with the poor and primitive data filtering you’re employing (and refusing to disclose I might add).
I’d suggest employing the Heumner-Yuing ‘personal attiribution invariant filter’** (second order, obviously) on comments. This could produce a similar, if not identical result to the bottom plot of figure 2 of Willis’ original post. Of course, upon publication, you dare not to be obtuse and refuse to provide to all of us commenters your data, equations and assumptions for peer review.
Other than that, great post Willis and all you crazy scientists.
Is modeling the Sun/Earth/Moon, with details focused on the earth’s water layer just beyond the realm of feasibility for current technology? I know that there are climatic models that, I am assuming, must have a very high degree of fidelity. Why not also for this gravitational exercise?
**Heumner-Yuing; http://www.sciencemag.org/content/343AE/6172A4/RE599H.full
Greg says:
February 11, 2014 at 6:50 am
“14,056,000 km² x 15mm x SHC brine / 9.3 = ???
…
In flow of atlantic water seems to have peaked in 2005 with temp dropping since 2007: which is when the melting trend started to ease up.”
The problem is that these data sets are just too short to draw any real, long term, cyclic conclusion from them.
The data series TB linked to is much longer and therefore, in the long term cycle sense, more useful. And that fits rather well considering I didn’t even know it existed!
For those who don’t like math:
1. Earth tide amplitude is a large fraction of that of sea tides, and of course involves no horizontal flow–only slight displacement. Solar tides are analogous to earth tides.
2. The earth’s hydrosphere being shallow, makes for greater displacement than with earth tides or solar tides. Bathymetry may amplify the flow (funneling).
3. There are at least two conceivable mechanisms for connecting supertides to weather a) vertical mixing, b) poleward flow of warm water.
4. The east/west tidal (equatorial) tidal force according to WE’s analysis produces no supertides.
5. This E/W (equatorial) tidal component does not directly produce polar flow, but can only lead to vertical mixing.
6. The polar component may produce both polar flow and vertical mixing.
7. The equatorial tidal force is the the result of longitudinal orbital parameters: a) lunar phases; b) eccentricity of the lunar orbit; c) eccentricity of earth’s orbit.
8. The polar tidal force is the result of variable lunar declination, that is, the angle of the moon’s position relative to the earth’s equator. This varies according to a) the moon’s revolution around the earth, crossing the celestial equator fortnightly; b) the 18.6 year precession of the lunar orbit, which is inclined 5 degrees from the ecliptic (the plane of the earth’s orbit around the sun). Earth’s equator makes a 23° angle with the ecliptic; over an 18.6 year period the lunar orbital declension of 5° is alternately added and subtracted from the earth’s 23°, leaving a total variation of 18° – 28° over the 18 year cycle. The polar solar tide is strongest near solstice. Other much longer Milankovitch cycles add slightly to the polar tidal component.
9. The polar tidal force must then be combined with the equatorial (or longitudinal) tidal force to yield the resultant polar tidal component, which is at a maximum when: a) the moon is at perigee, b) the moon is new or full, c) the moon is at maximum declension of 28° (in the current epoch), d) earth is at solstice, e) earth is at perigee. Of course this supertide arrangement can only be approximated to varying degrees.
10. The extent to which such supertides affect weather and climate, while not zero, remains unknown.
Feel free to criticize. –AGF
Willis: I have just realised why there is no long term component in your Fig 2. You have plotted the vector magnitude along the line Earth-Moon axis. Which is to say, you have set the vector to follow the Saros cycle and thus concluded the Saros cycle does not exist!
Well relative to itself – it wont!
Please re-plot for two cases, the North Pole and a point on a circle at 60 degrees North so as this then has at least some relationship to here on a real Earth as opposed to some mythical, all water, non-rotating planet.
RichardLH says:
February 11, 2014 at 7:11 am
Tallbloke:
That fits surprising well!!!
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/richardlinsleyhood/200YearsofTemperatureSatelliteThermometerandProxy_zps0436b1f2.gif
It’s not too surprising we find out more from people like Harald Yndestad who have been studying this stuff for many years than we do from instant experts who *know for sure* there’s nothing interesting in lunar celestial data beyond short timescales.
Once the declination cycle starts interacting with geographical features, ice cover levels and the ~55-66yr cycle confluences, a lot of permutations are coming into play.
Tallbloke:
“Once the declination cycle starts interacting with geographical features, ice cover levels and the ~55-66yr cycle confluences, a lot of permutations are coming into play.”
Because we only have 2 cycles at ~60 years (TWO that’s in coin toss land!!!) the precise length and height of the various components are very hard to judge.
It could well be 55:65:75 in a 1:1:1 mix, possibly even randomised between half cycle mixtures of each as nature often does in a semi-ordered, chaotically implemented long term series, and it could still all be cyclic and driven by orbits in the end.
So many possible combinations and so little real, high quality, data.
Tallbloke: I have responded on your thread as well at http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/the-moon-is-linked-to-long-term-atlantic-changes/
Coldlynx says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:23 pm
Why is it that no matter what I write about, there’s always some random anonymous internet popup to tell me I didn’t take the analysis far enough?
Coldlynx, there are a hundred further, more inclusive analyses to be done. I’ve started with the most basic one, so that I can understand the variations in the amount of tidal force being exerted on the earth. That’s what I set out to analyze, and what I analyzed. I haven’t drawn any big conclusions from that, other than that people who claim the 54-year cycle of tides is related to the ~60 year pseudo-periodicity in the HadCRUT data don’t understand the nature of the 54-year cycle … nor did I before I started this analysis. I thought it was a 54-year sine- or approximately-sine wave, like we see in the HadCRUT data. I found out it’s not. That’s valuable information.
And yes … indeed there are more analyses to be done, Coldlynx, many of them. How about you do the next one, since you claim to be so knowledgeable? You go get the JPL data and you calculate the forces you think are significant …
w.