From the “don’t trust but verify” department comes the revelation that the Obama administration went into COP15 negotiation with spy help.
WASHINGTON — The National Security Agency monitored the communications of other governments ahead of and during the 2009 United Nations climate negotiations in Copenhagen, Denmark, according to the latest document from whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The document, with portions marked “top secret,” indicates that the NSA was monitoring the communications of other countries ahead of the conference, and intended to continue doing so throughout the meeting. Posted on an internal NSA website on Dec. 7, 2009, the first day of the Copenhagen summit, it states that
“Analysts here at NSA, as well as our Second Party partners, will continue to provide policymakers with unique, timely, and valuable insights into key countries’ preparations and goals for the conference, as well as the deliberations within countries on climate change policies and negotiation strategies.”
“Second Party partners” refers to the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, with which the U.S. has an intelligence-sharing relationship. “While the outcome of the Copenhagen Climate Change Conference remains uncertain, signals intelligence will undoubtedly play a significant role in keeping our negotiators as well informed as possible throughout the 2-week event,” the document says.
The Huffington Post published the documents Wednesday night in coordination with the Danish daily newspaper Information, which worked with American journalist Laura Poitras.
Read the full document here.(PDF)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/snowden-nsa-surveillance-_n_4681362.html
h/t to WUWT reader MichaelWiseGuy
Well, there’s no need to associate C2C with what Zimmerman says. He’s probably said it on other venues too, which could be googled for. (Goes to do so.) Here’s his blog. http://behindtheblack.com/ On its sidebar he lists other venues where he’s been interviewed or made appearances. It’s worth knowing what he has to say–I wanted knowledgeable people to listen. (In fact, the firs two hours of C2C are rebroadcast in some markets starting now (2 AM Pacific), so there’s still time to catch him.
There are only 2 rules that govern spying: #1 Spy on everybody, and #2 Don’t get caught. The NSA and the Obama Administration broke rule #2. The ‘fine’ is a complete loss of confidence in the US government by our allies. Recovering from that is kind of like trying to un-ring a bell.
The best consequence is that a global ‘climate treaty’ will be just about impossible now.
A little off topic on this thread, but Governor Brown!… Make sure all your hundreds of Dams are damming, as it is raining and snowing in central California. Get your damn dams to catch all that water!!
markx:
Your post at January 30, 2014 at 1:54 am is extremely naive. Indeed, it is dangerously naive.
I wrote
And you have replied
Such espionage has been “completely normal” since trade began in the Stone Age.
A country which did not engage in such Intelligence and Counter Intelligence would put itself at great risk from external and internal enemies both real and potential.
Failure to recognise that such espionage is, always has been, and always will be “completely normal” allows Security Agencies to act without proper oversight. This is because an unaware public has no ability to control the politicians who do oversee the Security Agencies. Politicians can employ Security Agencies to act as they did in the old East Germany in the absence of that public awareness and control. And when that East German situation is reached then the public lose all possibility of controlling the politicians.
Naive attitudes like yours enable ‘Big Brother’ to win. Indeed, they ensure it.
Richard
I am surprised not to see any mention of the wholesale collection of all financial transactions (right down to your toothpaste) and the data banks of retail stores. All those ‘points’ you collect are data points of the financial parallel of the internet search results on your file.
It is also somewhat humorous to hear the commentators in the US go on about how it is wrong for the US to spy on American citizens, the implication being it is completely acceptable for the US to spy on everything said or communicated or bought or sold or searched or watched or saved or paid or not in Canada, and Haiti, and India…
BTW, Art Bell, who hasn’t been the host for over ten years, was a co-author of the warmist alarmist book and movie, “The Day After Tomorrow.”
Fortunately, it wasn’t. What resulted was the best possible outcome, short of outright acknowledgement the whole shambalooza was a fraud. .
It would be interesting to actually see those unique, timely, and valuable insights provided to “policymakers”.
Also, internal &. classified documents evaluating “climate threat” to the national security of the U.S. of A. as compared to public stance are a potential bombshell.
Policycritic says:
January 30, 2014 at 12:10 am
u.k.(us) says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:58 pm
Cyber security is the new game.
Get with it.
If it were cyber security, NSA would have caught the Target and other departments store credit card massive thefts. It’s more like industrial espionage for the transnational owners and American elites for a fee. I was in the room 18 years ago when someone paid $25Gs to a NSA go-between for hard proof for a legal case.
————-
Spot on Policycritic.
No only was Merkel spied on but SIEMENS was as well (remember that Stuxnet, which was purportedly developed by the US and Israel) targets Siemens SCADA systems.
If they were interested in real crime, those who were behind the 2008 crash would have been caught. What about all the drugs flooding the US and elsewhere? What about all the offshore banking and money laundering? How many people in positions of power have been compromised and are being blackmailed?
This all reminds me of the favorable treatment Enron got during the late 90’s. A counterpart of mine bid on Kenetec US Windpower assets in bankruptcy court. Enron showed up AFTER deadline (out of the blue) and submitted a bid which was (shockingly) accepted. They won by bidding just a few dollars more than my counterpart. There is a lot more that happened as well (and still is).
I find it very hard to believe that Snowden convinced other employees he needed their login credentials “to work on their computers” (I assume that means perform IT support) and stole data that way. First off, the message is pounded in from Day One in those agencies that no-one gets your login credentials for any reason whatsoever. Secondly, the IT support guys have admin rights on all the workstations, so they wouldn’t need your personal login anyway.
Personally, I think most of what he claims to know is a lie. He hasn’t really said anything that wasn’t known before — the phone metadata story was out before, and people had passed that one by before he brought it up again. That the agencies spy on other countries — I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to hear that such things go on.
What I’d like to hear from him are specific URLs inside the agency that could be checked up on. It’s not like anyone else could get to them, as they’re behind an air gap with no connectivity to the internet anyway. Only people with access to the internal intelligence networks would be able to get to them. He’s said not one word about such things, which leads me to believe he’s running a big bluff in part.
At any rate he’s a coward and a traitor. When Daniel Ellsberg delivered the Pentagon Papers, the first thing he did was line up some supportive members of Congress so that he had political backing, and then he stayed in the US for the battle. Snowden could have done the same thing, but he elected to flee to Russia, which says all about him I need to know.
I have no doubt they did. But a bombshell? If other nations by now do not realize we have a government run amok, they will never learn it. And I am sure they will be happy on their “Good Ship Lollipop”.
Ah, yes, the NSA did such an excellent job catching the Boston Bombers before they blew people up.
As the author of The Black Code Ronald Deibert points out, pre-9/11 spy agencies spied on foreign governments and corporate entities for purposes of national security. Since 9/11 the NSA, GCHQ etc. have been spying on their own citizens and private citizens of other nations who are of no possible security interest. The problem is, they are like fishermen casting a wide net in baby minnow-packed waters, instead of targeting fishing areas likely to contain commercially important fish. In the US and UK etc. by spying on multiple private, innocent citizens they have changed the relationship between what was formerly a more democratic state and its people.
richardscourtney, I am rather shocked. You sound like a certain kind of conservative – the kind that put national security ahead of privacy rights. I am a conservative and am utterly opposed to governments gathering masses of private data on their citizens without their consent. Usually I agree with your trenchant and incisive analysis, but on this issue you are too trusting of government. And what, precisely, is the security value of different CAGW policy positions by different nations?
While we don’t have spying of the kind conducted by the Stasi in East Germany as a means to manipulate and control the speech and behaviour of private citizens, this is not an inconceivable outcome.
Professionally I moderate my speech and tone when writing e-mails at work because they may be reviewed at some future point. Given the growing reach of political correctness I can foresee this becoming necessary in private conversations and communications that can be intercepted.
around 500,000 PRIVATE contractors employed by the NSA to spy on everyone, yet some prefer to attack Edward Snowden. if you feel that way, add investigative journalist to the list of professions you should avoid.
it is astonishing that people defend the following:
AP: Private contractors’ key role at issue in NSA leak
Snowden, an employee of Booz Allen, one of 500,000 contractors with top security clearance
“That really illustrates the ingrown nature of the relationship of NSA and its contractors,” said Steven Aftergood, head of the project on government secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists.
The ties between government and contract workers are so pervasive in Washington that those on each side are known by nicknames: Contractors are called “green badgers” for the color of their identification badges. Government workers, who sport blue, are known as “blue badgers.” …
Of the 4.9 million people with clearance to access “confidential and secret” government information, 1.1 million, or 21 percent, work for outside contractors, according to a report from Clapper’s office. Of the 1.4 million who have the higher “top secret” access, 483,000, or 34 percent, work for contractors.
http://news.yahoo.com/private-contractors-key-role-issue-040233420.html
Mark T says: January 29, 2014 at 9:07 pm “Funny that the Democrats are the most vocal opponents of things like the Patriot act, as well as related issues, yet also the worst abusers.”
It is mere coincidence that the current administration abuses the technology becoming available during its tenure. There is not a spit of difference in principle between the left and right wings of the US progressive Ruling Party. Progressivism is the movement to make things better and The Poverty of Historicism (Karl Popper 1957).
Only The Constitution Party represents America’s conservative Country Class against the progressive Ruling Party of demotic repugnant liars.
vigilantfish says:
January 30, 2014 at 4:44 am
Remember AMDOCS? They were just upgraded by Oppenheimer.
http://www.streetinsider.com/Upgrades/Oppenheimer+Upgrades+Amdocs+Ltd.+(DOX)+to+Outperform/9104399.html
Interesting story. You would think that negotiations based on settled science and virtually unanimous consensus would be held in the open. Thought for many years that on balance the U.N. was helpful institution. Thinking has shifted.
US Southland still in the deep freeze this morning. Look forward to seeing the temp stats when Winter is over.
Sounds like the US shared the Danish with China, the rising smoking gun, and thus prevented any traction against carbon’s boot prints.
I’m confused. I know the UK admits they spy for economic advantage, but the US has always maintained that’s illegal, thus we deny we do so regularly. Has this administration just declared the US UN-exceptional?
Actually, since what NSA is doing is in accordance with current US law, you, through your elected representatives not only gave your consent, you ORDERED them to do what they are doing. If you don’t like it, get new elected representatives.
michaelwiseguy says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:33 pm
I don’t recall giving my government or my government employees consent to use my tax dollars in the manner they are doing so. I want my money back. First order of business, cut off the money. Looks like a complete and total economic collapse will take care of the problem for me, if nothing else.
vigilantfish:
Thankyou for your response to my comments at January 30, 2014 at 4:44 am.
Please be assured that I am not “conservative” but I am a realist.
It is simply a fact that governments need Security Services. They always have had that need and they always will, both for defence and for offence in war and in peace.
In WW2 the British and Americans cracked the German and Japanese codes, respectively. WW2 may have had a different outcome if they had not, and the Battle of Midway certainly would have.
This thread is about a typical peacetime piece of international espionage. And, as I said, it was clearly inadequate. Would the USA have sent its President to Copenhagen in great fanfare if the NSA had managed to determine that he would be sent home ‘with his tail between his legs’? The tactic the Chinese used at Copenhagen was determined before the US President boarded his plane for Copenhagen (and, yes, I do know that but, no, I won’t explain it).
All governments always have intercepted communications and they always will. This is needed to defend from enemies within and without. The activity is not constrained to wartime: it is intended to avoid war, insurgents and terrorism.
Failure of Security Services is often obvious; e.g. 9/11. But that only indicates they were inadequate on such occasions. It is a spur to discern how and why a failure happened so similar future failure can be presented. Successes are rarely public knowledge (and for good security reasons).
Espionage between countries has always included the seeking of information concerning, diplomacy, government policy, government security, military secrets, trading activities, trade policies, and technology. Woe betide a country which lacks both Intelligence and Counter Intelligence.
Espionage is a powerful weapon. No nation with significant wealth and/or resources can dare to lack adequate Security Services any more than it can dare to lack an adequate military force. My country (the UK) is small but established an empire which circled the globe by using a combination of trade and espionage: most countries did not recognise they were part of the British Empire until they were.
The undeniable realities I have stated here provide a risk. Any powerful weapon can be misused. The Gestapo, the Stasi, and etc. were not unique to Germany. Every country has had Security Services and many governments have used them as a weapon to control the populace.
People put themselves at risk by failing to recognise the realities that governments need Security Services, will use them, and can misuse them.
Each country needs clear controls of its Security Services. Obviously, what spies find out and know MUST be kept secret. But oversight of their activities needs to be provided by a minority of politicians who are overseen by the bulk of politicians in a country. When the public allow the politicians to use spies without proper oversight then the powerful weapon which is Security Services can be used by politicians for their own ends: history shows it often has been.
Burying one’s head in the sand and pretending reality is other than it is gives politicians free rein to use Security Services for their own ends.
A trusted minority of politicians is needed to oversee the Security Services.
The bulk of politicians is needed to oversee that trusted minority.
And we need to hold the politicians to account.
I hope that clarifies my views.
Richard
This story has now devolved into “Idiots doing idiotic things, watching other idiots doing even more idiotic things.”
If all of them – meaning the NSA AND everyone at that pathetic Copenhagen conference – were kicked out of their jobs and left to fend for themselves on skid row, the world would be a much better place.
Hey, John,
Read about the UK police doing private work for corporations who promise them a portion of the predicted civil payouts. (reminds me of how we kickback bonuses to law enforcement for “results” here) They got burned. Case failed, but we learned you CAN get police to get a judge to give them a warrant to arrest, search and seize when NO CASE is being made against them by CPS. The police did not tell the judge CPS was ignorant of their request.
Right, Virgin Media? They had 4 million Brits on cable, and 3 million on mobile devices. Ka-CHING! Just mates doing eachother a proper?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/29/metropolitan-police-virgin-media-lord-chief-justice
As horrifying as what you said you witnessed sounds, it s NOT surprising, and I’m damn well sick of the spooks twisting our shorts into their gains.
Geoff Withnell:
At January 30, 2014 at 5:49 am you say
YES!
I have a post (timed at January 30, 2014 at 5:51 am) which is in reply to vigilantfish that supports and explains your point.
It is in the mod. ‘bin’ but if it appears then I think this link will jump to it.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/29/bombshell-from-the-snowden-docs-the-u-s-spied-on-negotiators-at-2009-climate-summit-via-the-nsa/#comment-1554492
Richard
OMG, did Virgin Mobile direct the police to arrest and search premises based upon data collection they illegally accessed to pursue a civil claim against same? Why ask the cops for help when you can help yourself and then call for delivery?
That kind of blows the old “Your provider can’t have you arrested based upon your stored metadata” meme out of the water.
OMG, what are we to do if the TELEPHONY COMPANY is the terrorist? In this case, they simply had law enforcement violate other’s rights for a case they failed to later make. Why is NO ONE being SUED? National security secret?
In the light of Climategate and Chavez in his speech at Copenhagen 2009 claimed that to fight global warming we would have to fight capitalism, I think groupthink ended and most started thinking individual again?
http://links.org.au/node/1413
Policycritic says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:55 pm
Perhaps you have watched Men in Black too many times.