There’s been a lot of hullabaloo in the UK over the Balcombe fracking protests. WUWT reader Eric Worrall writes in with this comparison photo.
Original picture source: http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-08-16/anti-fracking-activists-camp-without-permission/
Here is a tagged version of the same picture of all the plastic high tech synthetics used by anti fracking protestors in England, captured in a single photograph.
![frackpic[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/frackpic1.jpg?quality=83)
It really makes you wonder – do anti-fracking protestors think nylon tents, PVC groundsheets, and plastics grow on trees? No doubt the tents also contain high tech synthetic fibre sleeping bags, and gas powered camp cookers.
Do these hypocrites actually think about what sort of world they would have to endure, without the cheap hydrocarbons, and cheap plastic synthetics, the petroleum source of which they oppose?
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Organic gardeners and plastic tunnels seem to go hand in hand. They are against using ‘chemicals’ but advocate using plastic sheeting to control weeds.
Just like in Soviet Russia when ideology often clashed with reality, as in special shops selling western goods, but only for party members.
Lol. “They don’t make hippies like they used to” Actually, they do. And we’re here, doing research, knowing exactly what we speak out against, and trying to raise children with values that are outdated(Like it’s your social responsibility to pay pennies on the dollar in the form of taxes to keep the roads, and schools, and poor folk fed, and that if you want money or something new and fun, you work hard for it, and we don’t get a new version of something when the old one works perfectly well). I was also raised to smoke a bowl in gratitude with my dealer, use my boobs when the guys I’m playing poker with have a better hand, and to know that spreading my legs and getting pregnant to every guy that smiles at you is wrong.
Lars – my comments are there for all to read – what I object to, as in gail’s recent comments, is as in my last comment – that you respond as you do further illustrates my point. Some of the other pointss she made might be useful, but she undermines any credibility as far as I’m concerned by not seeming to have read the comments of others that she finds so much fault with – if you read this thread carefully you might see what I mean, as many here have done the same
Neil:
I have read the entire thread and made no comment until now. But I write to address your post at August 24, 2013 at 3:24 pm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/23/friday-funny-fracking-protestors-and-their-petro-sourced-belongings/#comment-1399313
It says in total
Neil, that makes no sense (e.g. your first sentence is rambling nonsense).
Nobody cares what you think about the credibility of anyone because you have destroyed your own credibility by your posts which only contain ill-informed, whinging, nonsense.
And it is YOU who has demonstrated a complete disregard for the comments of everybody except your own.
If you read this thread you will see what I mean for yourself because it is apparent to everybody else.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
August 24, 2013 at 3:45 pm
+1
From Gail Combs on August 24, 2013 at 8:24 am:
No, we do not have the right to own land. When we are required to pay property taxes to the state or we shall be evicted by the state who will then assume control, we are clearly not owning. At best we are leasing from the state. The state can even kick us out with notice if they give us back the deposit with interest (eminent domain, fair market value) so someone else can have it.
And although technically we normally have the mineral rights in the US, remember the state is more than eager to ratchet up those property tax valuations whenever possible. “Improve” the property with some gas wells, there goes the property taxes upwards. And just about the only thing that makes the state lower the valuations is a National or State Park declaration, since the state avoids overcharging itself. You may “own” the property and the rights, but the state will find a dozen ways to get its share of any money you make off of their property.
Heck, we don’t even have the right to harvest the critters on our property, we have to beg the state for hunting and fishing licenses, while paying the state for the privilege although we are doing the work, and must follow their rules. I’m just grateful here in Pennsylvania we can still control our trees, cut them down and even sell them, usually. As long as the state doesn’t decree it to be farming, which they control.
Crops, fish and game, such truly naturally renewable resources are regulated by the state, like it was the state that owned them.
And others? Don’t even think about doing anything with hydro power without checking the regulations. Be prepared for nosy noisy “environmentalists” to demand “impact statements”, even if it’s just dipping a small open-bladed turbine into a fast-flowing stream. Wind and solar are protected darlings right now, but don’t expect carte blanche, they’ll get you there if they can. Check regulations, get permits and inspections, or else.
People do not have the right to own property. But they are allowed to pretend they do.
Isn’t involuntary serfdom fun?
_Jim says:
August 24, 2013 at 8:41 am
“Fortunately, we in the big cities of Texas use surface water…”
Jim, San Antonio gets most of its water from the Edwards Aquifer (north of the city), and is very protective of it. Eagle Ford and other O&G drilling, is south of San Antonio, so no conflict there.
Neil, others (me included) have read your comments, and more importantly we have read most of what the “other” side have had to say. Their arguments are weak, their science weaker, their conclusions weaker still.
For instance, 99% of what you write about fraking is wrong, period. How do I know? 2 years of actual boots on the ground experience. I currently work in the Eagle Ford oil field, and have also worked the Bakken as well as oil fields in Wyoming and Colorado. None of the environmental disasters you claim have happened anywhere I’ve been, just good modern technology working to help provide the nation with much needed hydrocarbons. I have talked to dozens of landowners, engineers and safety personnel, not to mention the fact my brother in law has lived in North Dakota for almost 40 years and not a single person I have talked to has seen nor heard of any environmental damage, less disaster.
My suggestion is get off your as…….couch and go to these places you hear or “know” are hell on earth. Until then, you believe what you want but don’t ascribe ill intent on those who disagree with your pablum.
Steve Oregon….
Thank your brother for the excellent summary. The great thing about WUWT is you get people with hands on experience making comments.
_Jim says:
Anecdotal; we need cites. There are some reading here who won’t believe you…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim I have looked for that blasted article several times. Unfortunately we were in the middle of the move to NC and all the back issues of the WSJ got tossed. I haven’t steeled myself to go to a library and dig through several months of the WSJ to find that article again. (It is not on the net)
Neil says: @ur momisugly August 24, 2013 at 8:43 am
gail : you don’t own the mineral rights on your property….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am in the USA so I darn well DO own the rights. It was one of the things we had the lawyer check for when we paid cash for the land.
ralfellis says: @ur momisugly August 24, 2013 at 10:22 am
…..One wonders if these Eco-Goons want to see the destruction of Europe as a wealthy technological region.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Unfortunately the answer is yes.
I have a friend who is a professor at one of the NC colloges. He is always pushing global warming has a booth he sets up at various places…. I asked him if he wasn’t worried that his daughter would have a reduced lifestyle because of what he was advocating. He said yes he was aware his child would not have the advantages and life style he did but she was OK with that. A few minutes later his 10 year old grabbed my hand to take me over to look at Daddy’s brand new SUV and talk about when she grew up and could have a horse of her own.
Chad Wozniak says:
August 24, 2013 at 11:45 am
@Gail Combs –
You make so many excellent points with which I heartily agree, but I would point out the following:
Geothermal also can have a dirty little secret…..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Chad I was talking of the home heating variety. Pipes laid ~ 6 to 10 feet down and air/liquid circulating through a heat exchanger to cool/heat a home. Here is a link talking about what I mean: http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/geothermal-heat-pumps
In the USA they could knock a big chunk off the cost of heating and A/C for an initial investment of an extra $4,000 when building. (I wish I had been aware of the option)
@terry S –
I agree it is hypocritical of the greens to give geothermal a pass for fracking, while opposing doing it for hydrocarbons.
I brought up the issue of geothermal as a “renewable” because it too can have environmental issues that the greens ignore. It is definitely not free energy, and could well be dirtier than hydrocarbon fracking.
john lord says:
August 24, 2013 at 3:19 pm
Organic gardeners and plastic tunnels seem to go hand in hand. They are against using ‘chemicals’ but advocate using plastic sheeting to control weeds….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, Now be nice to the organic gardeners, some of the stuff they come up with is quite useful. Being lazy and poor I use a modified organic approach. Use organic methods where possible and chemicals (sparingly) as needed. Why dump lots of expensive chemicals into your animals or onto the ground if there is something else that works as well? For example I worm and place animals in a holding pen for 72 hours before turning out to a new pasture and I rotate pastures weekly. I have been able to cut my worming medication AND my feed by 75% by doing my homework. (Idea was from NZ shepherds)
kadaka (KD Knoebel) says: @ur momisugly August 24, 2013 at 4:09 pm
….People do not have the right to own property. But they are allowed to pretend they do.
Isn’t involuntary serfdom fun?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
SIGHhh, you are correct. (I just try not to notice I am a free range slave.)
2009– Year of the Slave
You are a slave.
You probably do not realize it, but you are….
Kajajuk
Problem with your argument is that the population of western civilizations are on the decline. Third world population is still claiming. The western civilization to compensate for the decline has brought in tons of their world countries population as they come in even their population is on a gradual decline relative to the counties of origin.
In other words the trend is as industry grows the population declines
These protesters are rich kids who think that high energy prices and supply security cannot threaten them. This coming winter may educate them otherwise.
“”””””……Gail Combs says:
August 24, 2013 at 5:52 pm
john lord says:
August 24, 2013 at 3:19 pm
Organic gardeners and plastic tunnels seem to go hand in hand. They are against using ‘chemicals’ but advocate using plastic sheeting to control weeds….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, Now be nice to the organic gardeners, some of the stuff they come up with is quite useful. Being lazy and poor I use a modified organic approach. Use organic methods where possible and chemicals (sparingly) as needed. Why dump lots of expensive chemicals into your animals or onto the ground if there is something else that works as well? For example I worm and place animals in a holding pen for 72 hours before turning out to a new pasture and I rotate pastures weekly. I have been able to cut my worming medication AND my feed by 75% by doing my homework. (Idea was from NZ shepherds)……”””””
Well with 4 million people, and 75 million sheep, we have to take care of our sheep properly; the people can just fend for themselves.
But as to that other thing; organic gardening, it is good if you like to have animal protein along with your fruit. I happen to know quite a few Armenian ancestry farmers in California’s central valley, who grow a lot of table grapes, stone fruit, and citrus (oranges). They don’t do organic, so that people can afford their produce. And it costs them money if they have to spray any sort of chemical on the ground, or their trees/vines, or perish the thought, on the fruit itself. And they certainly can’t afford to waste expensive chemicals by spraying it on their farm workers, so they don’t do that. Now they do do a good bit of crop variety selection to get types that will tolerate their environment better, with less need for chemical intervention. Once fruit budding has begun, they virtually never put any chemicals anywhere near the crops; but I think they might dust the stone fruit trees with yellow sulphur dust, sometimes, if they get a freak unexpected rain storm, just before the picking starts. If they don’t, they lose the entire crop to brown rot. I would have to ask them exactly how that works. As far as I know, nothing ever goes on citrus trees once they are in flower.
Real farmers are quite often greener, than those who simply certify that their crops contain carbon.
By the way, what I hear about what sort of sewage materials some organic gardeners use on their crops, I would be hard pressed to buy organic produce.
I think you can have concerns about the way something is produced, but still use the products (maybe).
For years I’ve posted on the Tesla Motors* Forum, mostly (not entirely) populated by world-saving oil-haters. Periodically I accuse them of being spoiled juveniles, loftily denigrating the petroleum wealth to which one and all they owe their lifestyles and their very diet. I’ve had no comebacks.
(*The company and its cars are marvels, notwithstanding the underlying “Escape From Fossil Fuels” nonsense.)
Gail, I too was like you and believed geothermal was the way of the future. But I think I should correct you on this score. (this is long and only about geothermal, so for anyone else not interested in my off-topic reply to Gail, please don’t feel bad at all about skipping the rest of this.)
I moved into a house that already has the geothermal set-up installed. (open loop system and when researching this home I was all excited about this high efficiency set-up.) Than the truth came home. The units which were older, did not pump out their nameplate capacity, they used globs of electricity to run, and to make matters worse they did not adequatly heat or cool the home where I live currently in humid Florida. So yes, about 15K later we have new units that keep our power bills 1/2 of what we used to have. So no, geothermal is not the way to go. I know the general argument is that “well technology has progressed since than.” Yes, the geothermal units today are better than the ones I had, but they have not even remotely improved as much as your typical forced air heat pump. In other words, spending that extra 4000 bucks will not save you money in the end as the cost of forced air units is the same as geothermal units today plus maybe 500 bucks. That is for the units that are the EXACT same efficiency wise. I know because last month I was shopping for new systems and have already gone SANS geothermal. You don’t save money anywhere. And the kicker on the install was this: They had to run electrical wires and add a sub-panel on our breaker just to get the forced air unit electricity. They also had to run lines all under our house which for a geo set-up would not be required. Now the funny part: they get rid of certain issues with maintenance today by installing the closed loop system that as you state costs about 4k. but a closed loop system is typically 2 SEER less efficient than the open looped systems. 2 SEER = ~2.5 EER in case you wanted the actual math.
Since efficiency is a bust for modern geothermal, what about maintenance? Let me tell you something about having large quantities of water flowing through your residence. Its not a good idea in the best of times, and for me I found out that one small error in the adjustments of the unit resulted in a ruined wooden floor. So not only do you have your normal maintenance, you also have your issues with build-up (if you use an open cycle) and you have issues with pipes that generally with that high of water flow tend to have serious issues. We are not talking small potatoes on the amount of water, most of these units use 5 gallons per minute while they are operating. So you have normal issues with typical forced air units, and you combine that with issues with plumbing making it just a nightmare unless you just pay someone to do it for you in which case you are going to be paying more anyway. So where are the savings?
Now in the interest of full disclosure: We looked at geothermal units when replacing both of these units. The first quote was $1000 higher for the same EER/SEER rating (you have to convert them to the same metric because your normal forced air heat pump uses EER and the geothermal units all use SEER). So basically, with all of the pipes in place, and all of the electrical already in place, to get the same efficiency rating would have required spending $1000 more for a new 4 Ton unit. The second quote was higher on both, but the geothermal was only $500 higher.
So no, people won’t save a dime by installing those pipes. And the only way it even became remotely economical was the 30% tax credit that geo units have on them. In essence, without the tax breaks, no one would even consider this today. The efficiency savings are just too small to even consider. And think of it like this: A poor person who pays no taxes would never install one of these things because its a tax break. So once again, like tax breaks elsewhere
And that does not take into consideration the costs of either running the well or running the pumps that is required to move water through your unit. (depending on whether you use a closed or open loop.) Because one way or another, you have to run a pump of some type. And that cost is not factored into the cost of the unit. (small things you learn when researching these things.)
Now I will say this: the theory is that geothermal units last longer. But judging by how far efficiency has come in the last 10 years on normal forced air units its probably more economical to install a forced air unit and just plan on replacing it in 15 years versus being stuck with a dinosaur in 30 years that got you just one lousy tax break. I am only writing this to give you information and perhaps correct a wrong belief.
Now there is something that I think is relevant to this discussion (on heating and cooling basically). 120 EER is the theoritical maximum efficiency you can achieve. Most new units today are 15 EER. If you think about that in reality you might
Note to Anthony: I have lost 3 posts in the last 2 days here after posting here for about 4 years now and not once ever losing a post. I normally used to use IE on this site. But I guess I am going to have to use firefox or chrome, because IE everytime locks up when I click on that little box to post something.. (latest IE on vista) And before that I lost two posts when I hit post comment and yes IE locked up forcing me to close it. Copy and paste is your friend huh? I was on my phone for one of those losses so I figure maybe safari has issues too at the moment. Is it an issue with word-press accounts inside of IE posting here perhaps? Chrome seems to work fine because Not even a hiccup as I post.
Gail Combs says:
August 24, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Exactly! And somebody needs to tell the lady in the picture at the top of this post that these represent her new home–and she needs to select one now before they’re all gone!
Then her sign needs to say: “Becoming a town near you soon!”
Or perhaps she’s a Government Realtor, and showing the latest model homes.
People won’t wake up until they find these are their only affordable housing options.
@ur momisugly rishi
“so, basically, i cannot protest against anything, because i have been made into a hypocrite…i cannot protest against gmo food, because i eat it; i cannot protest against the bad air, because i am breathing it; i cannot protest against any chemicals, because i am using them and i cannot protest against bad land use, because i am part of the problem.”
Of course you can protest about all these things. But wouldn’t it be better if you accept your way of life, and the condition of your surroundings, as perfectly normal and natural? You cannot honestly call land use “bad” if it’s you who’s using the land, you cannot reject the chemicals that you put to a good use to ease and improve your daily work, the air cannot be bad if you are breathing it, and gmo food evidently is tasty and nourishing, or you wouldn’t live and flourish eating it. That’s a sensible way to look at things – if you feel everything around you is only worth protesting against, maybe YOU are the problem and should either seriously rethink your POV or bow out of the gene-pool voluntarily….