UPDATE: I’ve answered questions from commenters below in the FAQs, and added additional diagrams – Anthony
Much to the chagrin of people who are sure I’m evil, in the pocket of big oil, and highly carbon positive, I’m actually an independent and pretty energy efficient guy, and I challenge any of my detractors to show their solar and energy efficiency projects. Put your money where your mouthpiece is, I say. For example, do loud climate campaigners Joe Romm and Bill McKibben have solar power on their homes? Do Jim Hansen and Michael Mann have solar power while telling us we all must cut back our energy usage linked to fossil fuels? Inquiring minds want to know.
Readers may recall last summer that I put up my third solar power project, my first being on my older home, then a large 125KW solar project I started as Trustee for the Chico Unified School District. My third project is doing quite well, and a number of readers have asked for an update on my original article as they are considering doing what I have done. This being the day of the electricity denying “Earth Hour”, I thought it would be a good day to write about how I’m beating my electric bill. You see, while many tout the supposed CO2 saving properties of solar panels, my impetus is entirely different: I’m hedging against California’s exorbitant green-driven utility rates.
For example, see below from my bill last year when temperatures went up in the summer, and tell me if where you live you come anywhere close to paying what I do.
Above: my actual rate and costs from last summer June-July 2012.
Thanks to PG&E’s new smart-meter system, they can now gouge me more efficiently and on schedule, when I need electricity to keep cool the most. I doubt there’s anyone reading this entry that pays 93 cents per kilowatt-hour to keep their home cool in summer.
I (along with millions of others in California) pay what I call a “location tax” due to my living in California’s Sacramento Valley, where summer temperatures regularly hit and exceed 100F. The majority of California’s population, living along the coast, don’t see temperatures anywhere near that, and thus don’t have similar air conditioning issues.
And, with the California Air Resources Board (CARB) running amok with cap-and-trade regulation frenzy, with refusal of coal and nuclear energy, relying on green wind power mostly for the future, combined with a looming national Carbon Tax, finding a way to generate your own electricity is in my opinion, the best hedge against future cost increases. Climate concerns don’t even rate with me on this issue, I’m thinking more about my financial future and the health and comfort of my family, and that’s why I got a solar system – it’s a hedge against the green energy and climate madness.
Here’s how I beat the green menace and PG&E.
Remember back in December when climate scientist Dr. Michael Mann was so out of touch that he couldn’t even conceive that I could do calendars for myself (I sent him a free one), but instead it must have been some nefariously funded production? Well, he probably can’t conceive of how I put up my own solar system either, since like the Josh Calendars, I did it using COSTCO and some sweat equity.
Here’s a few FAQs.
1. Did “big oil” or some other entity pay you to do this?
No.
Did you use government grants to do this? No. Did you get money from the WUWT tip jar or calendar sales to do this? No.
So how did you pay for this? Simple. I took out a low-interest loan against my savings account the contents of which was then converted to a certificate of deposit spanning five years. I’ll have the solar system paid for in five years, and the CD will be free at that time. Then I’ll have a solar system and my savings principal intact plus I’ll get interest on the certificate of deposit. Basically I’m trading my PG&E electric bill for a financing bill for five years.
How much did it cost? About $25,000 and change, fully installed, plus shipping and tax on the hardware portion.
2. Why didn’t you get one of those “no money down” solar systems being advertised today?
I’m borrowing and adapting a popular credit card slogan to best explain this: “ownership has its advantages”. I looked into several of these other plans, and when I penciled out the entire scheme, it didn’t make much financial sense, and at the end of the lease, I either had to buy the system at “fair market value” (to be determined) or they come and remove the system. And given the number of solar company bankruptcy/failures out there (think Solyndra), I was concerned that I’d be straddled with a system that was orphaned due to the company going out of business and the debt purchased by some holding company, who could then argue that previous contracts were “null and void” due to such bankruptcy and “oh, by the way here’s your new payment schedule”. When you want to control your own destiny, relying on others is not a safe bet.
3. Grid-tied or battery storage?
It is a grid-tied system. Battery storage systems really don’t make any sense for a city dweller, as they are primarily off-the-grid type applications where you need independent power 24/7. This was primarily a financial consideration, not a power security one.
4. Did you get any government rebates?
No, there was a PG&E rebate program, which put about $1200 (based on my system size) back in my pocket, but as I said earlier, I got no government money related to this. There will be some small tax advantages for me.
5. Does it make any noise or heat?
No, the inverters are essentially silent, except for one small fan. The inverters do make some waste heat, but they are mounted outside, and not an issue. The solar panels actually help keep the house a bit cooler, as they absorb sunlight for a good portion of the roof space, which otherwise would have gone to heating the attic.
6. Has it saved you money?
Yes, absolutely. More details follow.
7. How does your power bill work now?
We get a quarterly summary showing our electric use/surplus, and a year-end “true up” bill to balance any difference. We still have to pay for natural gas usage separately.
8. How big is it? How much power?
36 panels, of 250watts each, for a maximum DC output of 9000 watts (9KW). Of course that’s under optimal sun angle and atmospheric conditions, and with DC to AC power conversion loss, the real max is closer to 6500 watts of AC power. Typical days run anywhere from 4500-5500 KW at peak sun. I opted for the better monocrystalline (blue color) panels rather than the polymorphous (brownish) solar panels as they are more efficient and longer lasting.
9. (added) How soon do you expect to be able to pay back your investment?
If I assume a linear payback rate, it would be about 12 years. However, I think it will be closer to 9 years based on my estimates of what the future holds. First, a look at recent rates by state:
Source: http://www.pacificpower.net/about/rr/rpc.html
Now, look at the forecast for residential electricity prices. It isn’t linear.
Source: US Department of Energy
10. (added) What is your cost of capital?
The way my loan is setup, guaranteed against a certificate of deposit earning interest, the APR works out to 0.8%. Over 5 years, that works out to be $511.66 for the cost of the loan.
11. (added) How does the mounting system affect your roof integrity? Will you get leaks?
The installation was guaranteed to be leak free, and after this winter rains, I can testify to that. The way the roof mount works, the screws used to secure the rack support post are put under a metal “flashing” cone, and screwed in with a sealant applied to the screw threads. This guarantees that there’s no rain penetration because the flashing not only prevents the screws from getting rain in the first place, the flashing acts just like another shingle. Here’s a diagram I prepared showing how it works:
See a descriptive animation here: http://www.unirac.com/video/animations/solarmount-i/index.html
12. Why didn’t you go with larger panels (like the 300 watt panels of the same size).
Because the volume pricing COSTCO had arranged (at that time) did not offer that size. Adding my 2% COSTCO rebate combined with the lower overall cost made the 250watt panels a no-brainer.
Specs on the panels are here: 
GRAPE SOLAR 250W MONO PDF
13. How was the system shipped?
It arrived by truck as two large pallets, plus a third long package of rails. I stored these in my garage, unpacked them, and hauled the shipping materials to my office dumpster.
14. What about possible hail damage?
The rated impact resistance: hail diameter of 28mm (1.1″) with speed of 86km/h. (53mph)
These panels are really tough. My installer says you can drop them from the roof onto the concrete and they’ll survive just fine (he’s done it by accident more than once). here is a video and a news item that suggests the panels are tougher than the roofing.
News item:
Surprisingly little damage to rooftop solar panels
The epic hailstorm did surprisingly little damage to the tens of thousands of pricey solar-power arrays built on metro Phoenix rooftops in recent years.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20110930biz-hailstorm1002solar.html
======================
Purchasing the system
As I mentioned, I used COSTCO to buy the entire hardware system. They resell from a company in Oregon called “Grape Solar“. Here’s their largest package:
I actually wanted more power than that, so I contacted Grape Solar directly, described my needs, showed my house roof plan and power bills, and they came up with a custom design for me at no charge. Here’s the line item summary of what I bought:
I did a lot of research on this system, and found it was well designed and likely to live up to its claims, 8 months in, so far so good.
NOTE: Detailed instructions on how to order your own system from COSTCO follow at the end of this article.
Here’s links to manuals (PDF) on the items above:
- Grid-tied Solar System Layout Example
- Solar System Install Guide
- Solar Panel Specification Sheet
- PV Power Inverter Manual
- Solar System Quickstart Guide
I particularly like the Kaco Blue Planet DC to AC PV inverters, which are compact, quiet, efficient, and good-looking to boot. Here they are (5000 watt and 3500 watt models) on the side of my home with the PG&E SmartMeter. DC power comes in at the conduit from the solar panels at top right, AC power exits at bottom left in the curved conduit to junction box to tie into my AC mains breaker box.
=======================
Installing the solar system
While I “could” have done the entire installation myself, having mad electric and electronic skills, I opted to have someone experienced in this particular technology do it for me. The Grape Solar company contact gave me a list of certified installers in the area, and I called each of them up and asked them questions. The guy who held up under my intense questioning (A fellow in Redding named Baran Galocy) got the job. For some of the installers, I knew more than they did, never a good sign. Choose wisely.
Plus, this fellow was willing to work with me to trade some sweat equity for a lower installation cost. Since a good portion of time is spent in transport, unpacking, staging, and disposal of packaging, I opted to perform those tasks in sync with his job schedule to save labor time and thus money. Check with an installer you might choose to see if they will do the same for you.
Permits, of course are required. The first step was getting a city work permit, so that the city could get their “cut”. I say this because their inspection was total BS, the inspector never opened a panel box or climbed on the roof to inspect panels. He was most interested in whether mandated warning labels like this below (to protect the stupid) were properly applied. Your mileage in your city may vary. Fortunately the installer handled getting these, keeping my blood pressure down.
The next step was to put up the UNIRAC mounting system on the roof:
This took about three partial work days to complete, since only mad dogs and Englishmen work on rooftops in the midday summer sun. Here it is completed:
The next step was placing and securing panels, while doing base panel wiring:
Note the ladder contraption at the right. This is carpet remnants secured to ladder and rooftop. Shown in red to the left of the ladder is a nylon rope hawser with clips I designed that allows the man on top to pull up the panels while I push from below. This saves your back, plus virtually eliminates the possibility of dropping them and/or an injurious fall. The carpet prevents the panels from being scratched or damaged while they are pulled up.
This paneling operation took about two partial work days to complete.
Finally, the last step was to hang the inverters on the outside wall and to finish all the interconnect wiring. which took about another day.
Waiting for the city building inspector and for PG&E to “approve” the installation for grid connect took far longer than the actual installation. Then I discovered that PG&E changed one of their forms in the middle of the process, and we had to re-do the paperwork. While the install was competed in August, we didn’t actually get the final connect and switchover to net metering until December. Ain’t bureaucracy grand? I was just unlucky, you can figure about 2-4 weeks in most cases.
==========================
Results!
Here is a photo of my SmartMeter running today at about 940AM:
The 5.01 kW reading is my instantaneous generation, note at the right side it says “Received”. If I am using more power than I generate (or it is nighttime) that will switch to say “Delivered”. So now as I’m writing this, I’m 5kW net positive at my home.
At the top, in the big numbers is the summation of Kilowatt-hours over the lifetime of the meter. When the meter is delivered, it is set to read 00000. If I am using more electricity than I generate, it will show a net positive value (i.e 00234) if I have generated more electricity than I used, it will go backwards from 99999 and as this shows I’m at 99340, leaving a surplus of 660 Kilowatt-hours since the system was switched over in December. most of December and January was fairly overcast here, so my biggest gains have been recent, as shown in my SmartMeter summary online (highlighted in Yellow), I’ve now surpassed energy-efficient homes in my area:
My usage has gone negative:
Nice to see the money flowing to me too, here’s my quarterly bill:
Unfortunately, I still have to pay all those taxes and fees amounting to $4.66, even though I’m a net generator rather than a consumer, but I’ll take the deal.
================
How this works
The strategy is simple, generate/save as much electricity as you can during non-summer months, bank it (as shown on the meter) and then draw against that bank of generated energy during the summer or when you need power. Hopefully at the end of the true-up period, I’ll end up with surplus, in which case PG&E is now mandated by state law to send me a check. Amazingly, it didn’t used to be that way, and they were getting free surplus electricity.
If at the end of the true-up period, I used electricity, I pay for that then. Since I’m able to watch usage online and on the SmartMeter, it should be manageable to ensure we come out ahead (unless we have an extended heat wave). No matter what though, we are pretty much free of the tyranny of the 90 cents per kilowatt-hour in the summer when tiered rates kick in to punish us valley dwellers.
More info on the net metering program is here: http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/solarupgrade/index.page
=========================
Do you want one for yourself? Here’s how you can help yourself and help me in the process.
Since I’ve done all the work of documenting the process, the Grape Solar Company has agreed to offer me a finders fee for anyone who purchases a similar system through them via COSTCO. Here’s how to do it:
1. Contact Steve Bouton or Garret Towne at Grape Solar via telephone or by email:
Grape Solar, Inc. 1305 South Bertelsen Road, Eugene, Oregon 97402
Tel: 541.349.9000 Fax: 541.343.9000
Email: steven.bouton “at” grapesolar.com or garret.towne “at” grapesolar.com
2. Tell them you read this article, give them my name so they will credit me.
3. Give them your details, they will design a system to suit your needs free of charge. They’ll need your address, description of your view of the sky to the south (sometimes visible on Google Earth) plus your goals for electricity saving, (full replacement, supplemental, add as you go, etc.). Arrange financing if need be – note how I used my local bank to finance a loan against my savings account for a win-win.
4. Grape Solar will set you up with a custom order you can place on COSTCO.com that will include everything you will need. Then contact an installer. They’ll also supply a list of installers in your area if you don’t wish to do the work yourself. As I mentioned, you may be able to do some work yourself to help the installer to save money. Be sure to ask.
5. You’ll make the order with COSTCO, either you’ll need a credit card with a high limit or you’ll have to wire the money to COSTCO (which is what I did). BE SURE TO ASK TO HAVE YOUR COSTCO MEMBERSHIP NUMBER APPLIED TO THE SALE. This will ensure that if you have an account that gives you a rebate for year total purchases, you’ll get that year-end 2% cash back. 2% of a $20K system is $400, well worth the effort!
6. You have your installer get work permits and do the paperwork with your local utility company – this is key. Without these being done right, you are dead in the water. make sure your installer will do these for you.
7. Install the system – get it inspected and turned on. Submit final paperwork to your local utility company for any rebate programs they may have.
8. Keep all your paperwork for tax time – you may be eligible for tax credits – check with your tax preparer.
9. Enjoy a lower or zero power bill
============================
I hope this gives everyone who is interested the path forward. if you have questions about this please ask in comments. – Anthony
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Thanks for an update with numbers. I am astounded at the top rate from PG&E. Here the top residential rate charged by SoCal Edison is .35 $/KWhr, which is their Tier 5 rate. I live in the desert and planned a similar system, but the company I work for is moving to Texas. When I was researching panels, amorphous looked better than crystalline panels because the efficiency didn’t matter for my application; that is handled by $/Watt installed. Plus, in hot climates (I’m north of Palmdale in the Mojave desert) the better performance at high temperature slightly favors amorphous panels. As examples, the crystalline Sunmodule SW220 and the Kyocera KD300-80P panels derate at -.45%/K above 46C, compared to the thin film FS series from First Solar at -.25%/K above 40C. UniSolar PVL-144 amorphous panels derate at -.21%/K. If the cells hit 55C, that’s a 2% difference.
How about putting up a clothesline? That is definitely the most cost effective and simplest way to save on your electricity bill. In the summer, a clothesline and in the winter a few drying racks in the house (also helps to add moisture to the house in our dry winters) keep our electricity bill at minimal levels.
If you have an electric water heater, spending $50 on a timer can save you even more.
We have a gas water heater so we just turn it down at night before we go to bed.
Thanks to all of the beetle kill trees in Colorado, we have plenty of fire wood to heat the house.
Solar panels are the least efficient and cost effective means to lower your energy bills.
Jim,
When you net meter you are using the billions of dollars the utility has invested in generation, transmission, and distribution as your personal “battery pack”. 4 bucks per month doesn’t come close to covering the levelized capital cost + fixed O&M + variable O&M for these assets while you are using them. As one data point, three phase primary distribution line was around 150,000 dollars per mile a few years ago to install. The reality is that if people are going to stay “on the grid” with these installations the method of cost recovery for these costs will have to change if penetration significantly increases.
Anthony: very nicely described and illustrated, everything well thought out; nice to see solar, for once, as part of what looks like a solid investment; but, I just came across the below-linked order from the California PUC which seems to indicate that they are considering changing electric rate structures…
http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M060/K849/60849943.PDF
Best – PJ
Im glad you did this article. I feel the same way. My carbon footprint is very small and cant stand it when i try to debate someone on the climate issue that is no where close to energy efficient but rants on how the world is in so much trouble.
I think solar electricity is great, however a lot more consideration should be focused on safety. http://remotesolarisolator.com.au/video/
Lil Fella from OZ says:
March 24, 2013 at 6:34 pm
“There are a number of problems in Australia, mostly driven by green propaganda as if renewables are the answer to the world’s electricity. John probably came off the background of this to make a couple of very rash and outlandish statements”.
In part she was right.
Rash: Not every comment on solar generation made in the comment section of this post is bull.
I should not have personalised the issue. It is not only Anthony Watt’s solar system but most grid connected systems that are the problem.
I didn’t mention wind so I’m not sure how that came up. The details Lil gives are mostly wrong.
In Australia’s national electricity market, wind gets used first, not because of any contract with the government but because, compared with thermal generation there are no fuel costs and because wind generation receives one large-scale renewable energy certificate for each megawatthour of electricity it supplies. (Renewable energy target scheme). Retailers are required to buy these certificates for approximately $40, about 1 for every 10 megawatthours of electricity they sell.
Thermal generators are further disadvantaged by paying a “Carbon price”. For a black-coal fired plant it’s about A$20 per MWh. (A$26 per tonne of carbon dioxide)
Consequently wind can bid low into the market during every bidding period, even a negative price during windy off-peak periods and so when it is available it is used first. It receives the price of the highest bid needed to meet demand.
$600/MWh solar electricity is not an outlandish claim?
In the Australian Capital Territory, a one city state of 370 000 people including myself, the vivid green government introduced a feed-in tariff scheme that originally paid solar producers $500/MWh guaranteed for 20 years, that’s $0.50/kWh.
On top of that, a national scheme produced for a 1KW system a subsidy of 5 x 15 x 1.35 renewable energy certificates worth $40 each – $4050. In 20 years a 1kW system will produce 30MWh of electricity.
$500 + $135 = $635 for each MWh or 63.5 cents per kilowatthour.
The retailers pay an average of 6 cents per kilowatthour for its other electricity. The cost of the subsidy is passed onto all electricity consumers.
markx says at March 24, 2013 at 6:19 pm
“Anthony is simply managing his own costs to the best of his ability in an ill-thought out, flawed, misguided system. Your “noble” approach to the faulty system is actually very likely more an indication of personal inertia than of someone doing the right thing by his fellow man”.
I have been publicly opposing the scheme I described above from before it was legislated until when it was closed down. It wasn’t inertia but a deliberate decision because I saw it as stupid, economically unsustainable and inequitable. At least I criticise people using my own name and not a pseudonym.
Willis Eschenbach says:
March 24, 2013 at 4:30 pm
“It sounds like you think you know the answer to that question … perhaps you could enlighten us”.
There has been plenty said throughout the comment section about the effect of solar on the grid. I have never regarded you as stupid, Willis. So why not too much solar without storage?
How about the fact that people still use electricity at night or on a cold rainy morning.
A family is at work when the home solar is producing a surplus and then they return. It’s a hot sunny late afternoon, the overheated solar system’s output drops away rapidly, even faster than sun and when everyone still wants to run the air-conditioners. So now $0.93/kilowatt hour electricity being used, but banked against electricity sold into the system when it could have been purchased for 7 cents/kilowatthour.
We have a saying in Australia “I’m in the lifeboat, Jake”
Well Anthony is not only in the lifeboat, he is helping row it away.
Did you hear Algore bought a seaside home?
Hi guys! If anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area is looking for solar, I would be happy to contribute $500 per install to WUWT. We install SolarWorld panels, 100% made in the U.S., and SolarEdge inverters, the best in the industry. Not sure whether SolarEdge inverters always are 100% U.S. content, but they do much or at least some of their manufacturing in Fremont, CA.
Is solar the answer for national energy? Absolutely not. It is however great for the individual homeowner. On larger systems we show payback periods down to 5 or 6 years, due to the 30% Federal Tax Credit. I understand the rugged independence of the WUWT audience, but when the guvmint tries to give you back some of your hard-earned money, I say take it.
torcdwhansson@gmail.com
In reply to Willis Eschenbach (March 24, 2013 at 11:13 pm )
Well, well Willis. Looks like I hit a sensitive nerve there and made you get a little personal. It would be nice if you noticed that I live in HI not CA. It is not “my” brilliant plan for anything.
My posit was simply this: “If HI is switching for renewable sources for local economic reason (keeping $ in HI) would it not be the same for CA?” Apparently it is not (I’ve seen no quantitative proof -only statements by commenters on this blog). So be it.
I suggest you do a little homework about HI energy production (electricity and transportation) – I gave you the links – before attacking me personally about energy issues. If you had read these links you would have found that HI produces almost all of its electricity by (imported) bunker oil (the closest source is Alaska about 2,500 +/- miles away). Other than geothermal, HI is left with wind, solar, wave and biofuels as potential sources. As to the last item, the demise of sugar and pineapple has left large tracts of agricultural land fallow (both in planting and tax base). Part of the state energy initiative is to put those lands back to use as a source of biofuels, tax revenue (property and sales), and jobs (a lot of people with agricultural skills only were thrown out of work – and its tough to load up the truck and drive from Lanai or Kauai to AZ or TX (did I miss the tunnel?). LNG has been considered as a lower-cost fuel stock. I have worked with some folks proposing to import LNG into Maui to generate electricity (currently diesel is main source there). Because of the relatively low volume needed (economy of scale), LNG barely competes with diesel on Maui for generating electricity. You’d think that if Oahu (Honolulu) switched over to LNG there could be cost savings but when HECO did the boiler analysis and huge offshore/onshore LNG infrastructure needed bunker oil was still cheaper. At least for HI, that is. That may change but not because of an oversupply of natural gas in the US.
Anyway, your arguments and points are exactly the ones HI’s energy initiative wants to offset: Electricity generation costs are based on oil which currently gives a base charge of around $0.30 kWh for those living on Oahu (Honolulu). So let’s start with that:
– “Because expensive energy hurts, impoverishes, and kills the poor”: Expensive oil-fueled energy IS hurting the poor especially on Molokai, Maui, Lanai, Kauai and the Big Island where the base cost/kWh is closer to $0.40 and $0.50 (diesel-fuel generation). These island economies are the most impoverished. Go to Lanai sometime and see what 3,000 people out of work is like simply because Dole suddenly left lock, stock and barrel. There exist plans by some to use (windy) Lanai as a wind farm to generate electricity and ship it via underwater cable to Oahu. I do not know what Larry Ellison has in mind (he just bought the whole island). The capital costs are very large – I do not know the status today. But, the people of Lanai would benefit greatly from the tax base and the cost of a kWh is predicted to be $0.3/kWh delivered to Oahu (we shall see).
– “Because expensive energy is the most regressive tax imaginable, with no immunity at the bottom of the economic ladder—the poorer you are, the more it bites”: Everyone in HI knows this and experiences this. That’s why the state started the initiative – to manage future energy costs that are now totally dependent upon imported fuels.
– “Because expensive energy slows down the entire economy”: Couldn’t say it any better than that about the HI initiative, because that’s what the HI initiative is all about – keeping in-state the $4 billion/yr paid to “foreign entities” . By paying for whatever local energy source we can scrounge up the $4B circulates in the HI economy (sorry Alaska, hmmm, maybe not!)
– “Because subsidies distort the market and discourage investment in cheap energy sources”: In HI there is no other way to encourage the development of new energy sources other than to jump start them with tax incentives and subsidies. Think about where HI is located. There is absolutely no incentive for the agribusiness to replant for biofuels – their capital is being used elsewhere to what the stockholders – not Hawaii residents – considered better investments. The smaller entrepreneurs needed (and still need) help to change the land over to new types of crops (not sugar), build wind farms, install local (home) PV, etc. Similarly, venture funds will not invest in low $/long-return ventures. Believe me it’s a b(i)eat()ch!
– “Your renewables quotas are harming and impoverishing poor people as we speak”: Not in HI”. They’re not “my” renewable quoata – they’re Hawaii’s. And these quotas are doing just the opposite. These tax/subsidy programs provide capital and other incentives for local renewable energy sources (either at a home or as a business) which provide immediate relief and will pay off handsomely in the coming decades as the local economy is stimulated with cash-stays-at-home energy initiative and the cost of energy stabilizes.
Your rant may be applicable elsewhere, but not for Hawaii. You might want to read up on the energy issues and solutions in Hawaii, how the state got together and decided to attach the problem some10 years ago – even before oil hit $130/bbl in 2008 or so, and how well (or not so well) it is doing to reach the 2030 goal. The HI energy initiative serves as a model to be emulated or avoided based upon the local needs. Then maybe you can talk sensibly about the subject.
I want to add one aspect of energy policy in HI that is a bit skewed: homeowners (& renters) vs. apartment & condo dwellers (& owners). A home owner can put both PV and hot water solar on a roof (large area on a single family dwelling), but an apartment renter on the “15th floor” cannot (some apartment complexes have communal hot water). All new homes build in HI must have solar hot water (it adds very little cost to the purchase price – consider home prices in HI! -and provides immediate savings in about 3 years (instead of heating water at $0.3/kWh). But what are apartment dwellers to do? There has been some talk about co-op PV installations on large warehouses – the apartment dwellers providing the capital cost (in reality a small increase in rent) of the installation and reaping the benefits in a 7 yr payback (and the warehouse owner getting some rent subsidy for the use of the roof). Companies that install PV for lease appear interested because the home installations will eventually saturate. This disparity is yet to be fully addressed, but I see market forces (the installation companies looking for new customers) coming to the rescue eventually. By the way, this house vs. apartment disparity issue is valid everywhere.
BTW – I do not work for the State of Hawaii nor any energy/related industry in HI or elsewhere.
Aloha nui loa
JG says:
March 26, 2013 at 10:20 pm
Say what? Your question was this:
I gave you a bunch of reasons.
You don’t like my reasons, so you think I’m getting “a little personal”? My friend, I assure you … if I get “a little personal” with you, you’ll know it, and it won’t look like that in the slightest. You go on to say:
My friend, I lived in Hawaii and know its situation very, very well. And despite your repeated claims, I haven’t attacked you personally as far as I know. The fact that you feel attacked doesn’t mean someone attacked you, JG. It may just mean you’re uncertain about your claims, I dunno … but if I do attack you, you’ll be under no illusions about it.
My reply to your question was basically that I’ve never seen a renewable system for Hawaii (where I lived for some years) or just about anywhere else that would be any cheaper than fossil fuel.
And NEITHER HAVE YOU. As far as I know, not one of the renewable solutions already implemented in Hawaii (OTEC, solar, wind) has lowered the energy cost one penny. You keep waving your hands and claiming it will save Hawaii money in the future … but you still want to jack energy prices now, and you haven’t even shown that your plan will save a cent.
So yes, JG, your plan does shaft the poor today, and I notice you neither like that nor want to talk about it, but that’s the reality. You are supporting jacking electricity prices today in the hope that it will save money tomorrow … which means you are hurting the poor today in the hope of helping them tomorrrow … and I doubt very much whether anyone asked the poor how they felt about that.
Next, you foolishly say that we have to subsidize the cost of solar and wind … yes, that’s the ticket. Take expensive fuel, add Hawaiian taxpayer money, and PRESTO—all of Hawaii is now richer …
Since you obviously believe that adding tax money to expensive fuels is a net savings for Hawaii, I fear that logic and math may not work with you, JG. Taking expensive fuel and adding the cash from Hawaii taxpayers doesn’t reduce the cost of fuel to the residents one dime.
Think about it, JG. Hawaii is spending exactly the same amount of money for the expensive solar and wind, the subsidy doesn’t reduce that in the slightest. That’s just more BS claims that we can power things with unicorn farts as long as we add taxpayer $$$ … think about that one a while, and PLEASE DON’T POST AGAIN UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND IT.
Are there places on the planet where wind and solar make sense?
Sure, lots of them.
Is Hawaii one of those places?
It could be … but I haven’t seen it actually work to date. You seem to think that shipping fuel to Hawaii is some huge deal, or that it makes Hawaii unusual. It’s not, I used to be in the business of shipping fuel. Just about every gallon of fuel that anyone burns anywhere has been shipped in as crude oil, refined somewhere, and then distributed and sold.
Hawaii, however, made a curious choice. Only about 15% of the energy is generated by coal, and a percent and a half via wind and solar. Almost all the rest is generated from diesel …
So you are paying super-high prices in Hawaii, but it’s because YOU’RE GETTING SCREWED, not because of the high price of fuel in Hawaii. That’s what the utilities would like you to believe … but I’ve lived off of diesel electricity, and it doesn’t cost what your uitilities are charging you. For example, this is from the EIA for Hawaii in 2010:

Despite that, as you point out, in many places you guys pay forty cents per KWh, with the fuel prices only slightly higher than last year. Your solution is to replace expensive diesel electricity with expensive solar and wind … gosh, you’re up to 1.5% already, JG, you’re almost there … NOT.
My solution would be to get the utilities, which these days think their job is to increase energy prices to discourage consumption and replace cheap fossil fuels with expensive renewables, and who are doing a great job of raising prices, back into the business of encouraging consumption and providing cheap energy.
And then, whenever renewables can actually provide a savings to the customer and not just be a feel-good plan, add them to the mix.
All the best,
w.
Willis Eschenbach (March 27, 2013 at 9:39 am)
Well, Willis, you certainly are entertaining. I will gladly forward your name to Gov. Abercrombie as one of the great minds in economics, especially about the economy of Hawaii, and to HECO and MECO as having found a way to generate electricity using (imported) diesel fuel that is cheaper than what HECO/MECO can do with their imported bunker oil. Currently HECO has the following problem: 1 gal diesel @ur momisugly $3.50 wholesale converted to kWh @ur momisugly30% efficiency = ~$0.30/kWH … + distribution costs compared to 1 bbl oil @ur momisugly$90 converted to kWh @ur momisugly 30% efficiency = ~$0.18/kWh … + distribution costs. If you are such an expert in shipping fuel to and fro and know how to move oil to Hawaii cheaper than HECO’s current suppliers can, they would love to hear from you — and you could make a lot of money in the process. I like your use of 2010 statistics. How quaint. The cheapest gas in Honolulu is about $4.12/gal (reg) at Lex Brodie’s on Queen (Lex competes with Costco). For any other island add 50 cents. For current HECO electric rates go to (hint: J/F/M 2013: 31.0; 30.5; 34.3 cents/kWh plus the $9/mo service charge). You can give them a call at 808-548-7311 if you don’t believe me. They’ll give you the same facts. In 2011 HI generated 12% of its electricity from renewable sources and expects that to grow to 15% by 2015 (current buzz is that will happen in 2014). The feed in tariffs (Sep 2012) range from $0.16/kWh for on shore wind to $0.27/kWh for PV — wind is very cost competitive (w.r.t. oil) for generating electricity in Hawaii. if you think OTEC is an example of a prime renewable energy projects in HI you must have been gone for some time – a very long time. I’ve lived here over 30 years and OTEC is, well, passe. Anyway all your shoe pounding does not dispel the economic facts – I guess like a lawyer, if the facts are on your side pound the facts, if the law is on your side pound the law, but if neither facts nor law (in your case neither facts nor economics) is on your side, pound the table. I really do want to hear the details of your grand economic model, replete with facts and based on some modicum of accepted economic theory, on how keeping $4B/yr circulating inside the HI economy, as opposed to sending that $4B/yr to some other outside economy, is bad for Hawaii and its residents. We can call up DEDBT and ask them what they think of your model. Oh, I guess I didn’t mention that the $4B/yr (savings) grows at an additional $4B each year; added in year after year after year. Seems obvious but maybe that slipped by your analysis. That’s a lot of cheddar in just a few years.
I have never claimed renewable energy sources in HI would be cheaper than oil, gas or coal. That is of little interest. What is of interest, and what everyone in Hawaii understands but you apparently do not, is that keeping that $4B/yr ($7B/yr if you include transportation fuels) currently exported circulating in the state is wise economics – for everyone in the state. Hawaii’s location, economy and lack of natural resources makes this approach imperative (Hawaiians lived a stone-age existence – no metals – none! – until Capt. Cook arrived in 1778 – that’s 2 years after the Declaration of Independence!). Hawaii imports almost everything and produces little of value to export. It is just now trying to produce locally an increasing fraction of its food driven by the same economic sustainability theory – why send $ to Mexico or CA for lettuce or tomatoes when you can grow them yourself and keep the cash circulating in the state? Renewable energy (including geothermal) which is being generated at competitive rates (see tariff schedule) provides one path to keeping a substantial amount of that exported $4B/yr (potentially $7B/yr) in the state, providing cash and capital to expand the whole economy — for everyone in Hawaii, wealthy and disadvantaged alike.
Addendum (missing in my previous comment):
For current HECO electric rates go to http://www.heco.com
For information on Hawaii’s energy initiative, a good starting place is:
http://www.heco.com/portal/site/heco/menuitem.8e4610c1e23714340b4c0610c510b1ca/?vgnextoid=f085fa35fb372310VgnVCM10000005041aacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default#9
You’re quite right that the solar panel can’t be directly connected.. . I sense that you want to start small, but unfortunately, it’s hard enough to make a system with a dozen or more panels pay back. (It can, we have a system…) But with just one panel, maybe a small one, the economy of scale is gone. You need to buy a grid-tie inverter, which watt-for-watt will be more expensive than a regular size one, and for a small panel, the $$/watt value will be poor.. . There are some [illegal in most places] tiny grid-tie inverters that I see advertised on the web from time to time, with an ordinary plug that goes into the wall. Those are generally against electrical codes, and the danger is real.. . There is also a crop of micro-inverters being sold by companies such as Enphase. These are legitimate products, but will still be costly per watt, and ultimately, it will be hard to have a net savings over time with just one panel.. . Have you already taken the conservation steps like LED light bulbs, efficient appliances (especially refrigerator), insulation, and using a power strip to turn off loads that are not being used? That stuff isn’t sexy, but saves money fast. solar panels Venice FL
Interesting story from the opposite coast from a solar homeowner who has not had your financial success as a net generator …
“Buzalski said borough residents pay 22 cents per kilowatt hour for electricity. He sells his excess energy to the town, but it costs him 18 cents to send it. Therefore, he only makes four cents per kilowatt hour, he says.
“On a cloudy day, when his panels are not producing energy, Buzalski said he gets charged 22 cents for energy he believes he could have stored.
“If they let me have a meter that would spin backwards, it would solve everything,” Buzalski said.”
Full story at http://bit.ly/16CsB0C.
The town’s position is fair. Why should they pay retail for Buzaliski’s kilowatts? The real question is whether the installer informed him of this. I have a 5kw solar installation, and where I am, I get retail credit for my kwh. Naturally, I’m happy with that arrangement. However, it is not fair to those without solar installations, because I am getting to use the utility as a “free battery”, giving them surplus electricity by day and taking it back for free at night.
On an individual level, solar can benefit those who are either paying inflated rates for electric, and/or are receiving a subsidy, like the “free battery”. However, on a national level, solar drives the cost of energy up for everybody. Those with solar installations are merely using the financial and energy environment the government created to offset some of those increased costs. Unfortunately, it is only the relatively affluent that can afford the up front costs of solar, while the poor remain saddled with high energy costs that are in part subsidizing those with solar panels. Just another example how “progressive” government programs hurt those who can least afford it.