UPDATE: I’ve answered questions from commenters below in the FAQs, and added additional diagrams – Anthony
Much to the chagrin of people who are sure I’m evil, in the pocket of big oil, and highly carbon positive, I’m actually an independent and pretty energy efficient guy, and I challenge any of my detractors to show their solar and energy efficiency projects. Put your money where your mouthpiece is, I say. For example, do loud climate campaigners Joe Romm and Bill McKibben have solar power on their homes? Do Jim Hansen and Michael Mann have solar power while telling us we all must cut back our energy usage linked to fossil fuels? Inquiring minds want to know.
Readers may recall last summer that I put up my third solar power project, my first being on my older home, then a large 125KW solar project I started as Trustee for the Chico Unified School District. My third project is doing quite well, and a number of readers have asked for an update on my original article as they are considering doing what I have done. This being the day of the electricity denying “Earth Hour”, I thought it would be a good day to write about how I’m beating my electric bill. You see, while many tout the supposed CO2 saving properties of solar panels, my impetus is entirely different: I’m hedging against California’s exorbitant green-driven utility rates.
For example, see below from my bill last year when temperatures went up in the summer, and tell me if where you live you come anywhere close to paying what I do.
Above: my actual rate and costs from last summer June-July 2012.
Thanks to PG&E’s new smart-meter system, they can now gouge me more efficiently and on schedule, when I need electricity to keep cool the most. I doubt there’s anyone reading this entry that pays 93 cents per kilowatt-hour to keep their home cool in summer.
I (along with millions of others in California) pay what I call a “location tax” due to my living in California’s Sacramento Valley, where summer temperatures regularly hit and exceed 100F. The majority of California’s population, living along the coast, don’t see temperatures anywhere near that, and thus don’t have similar air conditioning issues.
And, with the California Air Resources Board (CARB) running amok with cap-and-trade regulation frenzy, with refusal of coal and nuclear energy, relying on green wind power mostly for the future, combined with a looming national Carbon Tax, finding a way to generate your own electricity is in my opinion, the best hedge against future cost increases. Climate concerns don’t even rate with me on this issue, I’m thinking more about my financial future and the health and comfort of my family, and that’s why I got a solar system – it’s a hedge against the green energy and climate madness.
Here’s how I beat the green menace and PG&E.
Remember back in December when climate scientist Dr. Michael Mann was so out of touch that he couldn’t even conceive that I could do calendars for myself (I sent him a free one), but instead it must have been some nefariously funded production? Well, he probably can’t conceive of how I put up my own solar system either, since like the Josh Calendars, I did it using COSTCO and some sweat equity.
Here’s a few FAQs.
1. Did “big oil” or some other entity pay you to do this?
No.
Did you use government grants to do this? No. Did you get money from the WUWT tip jar or calendar sales to do this? No.
So how did you pay for this? Simple. I took out a low-interest loan against my savings account the contents of which was then converted to a certificate of deposit spanning five years. I’ll have the solar system paid for in five years, and the CD will be free at that time. Then I’ll have a solar system and my savings principal intact plus I’ll get interest on the certificate of deposit. Basically I’m trading my PG&E electric bill for a financing bill for five years.
How much did it cost? About $25,000 and change, fully installed, plus shipping and tax on the hardware portion.
2. Why didn’t you get one of those “no money down” solar systems being advertised today?
I’m borrowing and adapting a popular credit card slogan to best explain this: “ownership has its advantages”. I looked into several of these other plans, and when I penciled out the entire scheme, it didn’t make much financial sense, and at the end of the lease, I either had to buy the system at “fair market value” (to be determined) or they come and remove the system. And given the number of solar company bankruptcy/failures out there (think Solyndra), I was concerned that I’d be straddled with a system that was orphaned due to the company going out of business and the debt purchased by some holding company, who could then argue that previous contracts were “null and void” due to such bankruptcy and “oh, by the way here’s your new payment schedule”. When you want to control your own destiny, relying on others is not a safe bet.
3. Grid-tied or battery storage?
It is a grid-tied system. Battery storage systems really don’t make any sense for a city dweller, as they are primarily off-the-grid type applications where you need independent power 24/7. This was primarily a financial consideration, not a power security one.
4. Did you get any government rebates?
No, there was a PG&E rebate program, which put about $1200 (based on my system size) back in my pocket, but as I said earlier, I got no government money related to this. There will be some small tax advantages for me.
5. Does it make any noise or heat?
No, the inverters are essentially silent, except for one small fan. The inverters do make some waste heat, but they are mounted outside, and not an issue. The solar panels actually help keep the house a bit cooler, as they absorb sunlight for a good portion of the roof space, which otherwise would have gone to heating the attic.
6. Has it saved you money?
Yes, absolutely. More details follow.
7. How does your power bill work now?
We get a quarterly summary showing our electric use/surplus, and a year-end “true up” bill to balance any difference. We still have to pay for natural gas usage separately.
8. How big is it? How much power?
36 panels, of 250watts each, for a maximum DC output of 9000 watts (9KW). Of course that’s under optimal sun angle and atmospheric conditions, and with DC to AC power conversion loss, the real max is closer to 6500 watts of AC power. Typical days run anywhere from 4500-5500 KW at peak sun. I opted for the better monocrystalline (blue color) panels rather than the polymorphous (brownish) solar panels as they are more efficient and longer lasting.
9. (added) How soon do you expect to be able to pay back your investment?
If I assume a linear payback rate, it would be about 12 years. However, I think it will be closer to 9 years based on my estimates of what the future holds. First, a look at recent rates by state:
Source: http://www.pacificpower.net/about/rr/rpc.html
Now, look at the forecast for residential electricity prices. It isn’t linear.
Source: US Department of Energy
10. (added) What is your cost of capital?
The way my loan is setup, guaranteed against a certificate of deposit earning interest, the APR works out to 0.8%. Over 5 years, that works out to be $511.66 for the cost of the loan.
11. (added) How does the mounting system affect your roof integrity? Will you get leaks?
The installation was guaranteed to be leak free, and after this winter rains, I can testify to that. The way the roof mount works, the screws used to secure the rack support post are put under a metal “flashing” cone, and screwed in with a sealant applied to the screw threads. This guarantees that there’s no rain penetration because the flashing not only prevents the screws from getting rain in the first place, the flashing acts just like another shingle. Here’s a diagram I prepared showing how it works:
See a descriptive animation here: http://www.unirac.com/video/animations/solarmount-i/index.html
12. Why didn’t you go with larger panels (like the 300 watt panels of the same size).
Because the volume pricing COSTCO had arranged (at that time) did not offer that size. Adding my 2% COSTCO rebate combined with the lower overall cost made the 250watt panels a no-brainer.
Specs on the panels are here: 
GRAPE SOLAR 250W MONO PDF
13. How was the system shipped?
It arrived by truck as two large pallets, plus a third long package of rails. I stored these in my garage, unpacked them, and hauled the shipping materials to my office dumpster.
14. What about possible hail damage?
The rated impact resistance: hail diameter of 28mm (1.1″) with speed of 86km/h. (53mph)
These panels are really tough. My installer says you can drop them from the roof onto the concrete and they’ll survive just fine (he’s done it by accident more than once). here is a video and a news item that suggests the panels are tougher than the roofing.
News item:
Surprisingly little damage to rooftop solar panels
The epic hailstorm did surprisingly little damage to the tens of thousands of pricey solar-power arrays built on metro Phoenix rooftops in recent years.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20110930biz-hailstorm1002solar.html
======================
Purchasing the system
As I mentioned, I used COSTCO to buy the entire hardware system. They resell from a company in Oregon called “Grape Solar“. Here’s their largest package:
I actually wanted more power than that, so I contacted Grape Solar directly, described my needs, showed my house roof plan and power bills, and they came up with a custom design for me at no charge. Here’s the line item summary of what I bought:
I did a lot of research on this system, and found it was well designed and likely to live up to its claims, 8 months in, so far so good.
NOTE: Detailed instructions on how to order your own system from COSTCO follow at the end of this article.
Here’s links to manuals (PDF) on the items above:
- Grid-tied Solar System Layout Example
- Solar System Install Guide
- Solar Panel Specification Sheet
- PV Power Inverter Manual
- Solar System Quickstart Guide
I particularly like the Kaco Blue Planet DC to AC PV inverters, which are compact, quiet, efficient, and good-looking to boot. Here they are (5000 watt and 3500 watt models) on the side of my home with the PG&E SmartMeter. DC power comes in at the conduit from the solar panels at top right, AC power exits at bottom left in the curved conduit to junction box to tie into my AC mains breaker box.
=======================
Installing the solar system
While I “could” have done the entire installation myself, having mad electric and electronic skills, I opted to have someone experienced in this particular technology do it for me. The Grape Solar company contact gave me a list of certified installers in the area, and I called each of them up and asked them questions. The guy who held up under my intense questioning (A fellow in Redding named Baran Galocy) got the job. For some of the installers, I knew more than they did, never a good sign. Choose wisely.
Plus, this fellow was willing to work with me to trade some sweat equity for a lower installation cost. Since a good portion of time is spent in transport, unpacking, staging, and disposal of packaging, I opted to perform those tasks in sync with his job schedule to save labor time and thus money. Check with an installer you might choose to see if they will do the same for you.
Permits, of course are required. The first step was getting a city work permit, so that the city could get their “cut”. I say this because their inspection was total BS, the inspector never opened a panel box or climbed on the roof to inspect panels. He was most interested in whether mandated warning labels like this below (to protect the stupid) were properly applied. Your mileage in your city may vary. Fortunately the installer handled getting these, keeping my blood pressure down.
The next step was to put up the UNIRAC mounting system on the roof:
This took about three partial work days to complete, since only mad dogs and Englishmen work on rooftops in the midday summer sun. Here it is completed:
The next step was placing and securing panels, while doing base panel wiring:
Note the ladder contraption at the right. This is carpet remnants secured to ladder and rooftop. Shown in red to the left of the ladder is a nylon rope hawser with clips I designed that allows the man on top to pull up the panels while I push from below. This saves your back, plus virtually eliminates the possibility of dropping them and/or an injurious fall. The carpet prevents the panels from being scratched or damaged while they are pulled up.
This paneling operation took about two partial work days to complete.
Finally, the last step was to hang the inverters on the outside wall and to finish all the interconnect wiring. which took about another day.
Waiting for the city building inspector and for PG&E to “approve” the installation for grid connect took far longer than the actual installation. Then I discovered that PG&E changed one of their forms in the middle of the process, and we had to re-do the paperwork. While the install was competed in August, we didn’t actually get the final connect and switchover to net metering until December. Ain’t bureaucracy grand? I was just unlucky, you can figure about 2-4 weeks in most cases.
==========================
Results!
Here is a photo of my SmartMeter running today at about 940AM:
The 5.01 kW reading is my instantaneous generation, note at the right side it says “Received”. If I am using more power than I generate (or it is nighttime) that will switch to say “Delivered”. So now as I’m writing this, I’m 5kW net positive at my home.
At the top, in the big numbers is the summation of Kilowatt-hours over the lifetime of the meter. When the meter is delivered, it is set to read 00000. If I am using more electricity than I generate, it will show a net positive value (i.e 00234) if I have generated more electricity than I used, it will go backwards from 99999 and as this shows I’m at 99340, leaving a surplus of 660 Kilowatt-hours since the system was switched over in December. most of December and January was fairly overcast here, so my biggest gains have been recent, as shown in my SmartMeter summary online (highlighted in Yellow), I’ve now surpassed energy-efficient homes in my area:
My usage has gone negative:
Nice to see the money flowing to me too, here’s my quarterly bill:
Unfortunately, I still have to pay all those taxes and fees amounting to $4.66, even though I’m a net generator rather than a consumer, but I’ll take the deal.
================
How this works
The strategy is simple, generate/save as much electricity as you can during non-summer months, bank it (as shown on the meter) and then draw against that bank of generated energy during the summer or when you need power. Hopefully at the end of the true-up period, I’ll end up with surplus, in which case PG&E is now mandated by state law to send me a check. Amazingly, it didn’t used to be that way, and they were getting free surplus electricity.
If at the end of the true-up period, I used electricity, I pay for that then. Since I’m able to watch usage online and on the SmartMeter, it should be manageable to ensure we come out ahead (unless we have an extended heat wave). No matter what though, we are pretty much free of the tyranny of the 90 cents per kilowatt-hour in the summer when tiered rates kick in to punish us valley dwellers.
More info on the net metering program is here: http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/solarupgrade/index.page
=========================
Do you want one for yourself? Here’s how you can help yourself and help me in the process.
Since I’ve done all the work of documenting the process, the Grape Solar Company has agreed to offer me a finders fee for anyone who purchases a similar system through them via COSTCO. Here’s how to do it:
1. Contact Steve Bouton or Garret Towne at Grape Solar via telephone or by email:
Grape Solar, Inc. 1305 South Bertelsen Road, Eugene, Oregon 97402
Tel: 541.349.9000 Fax: 541.343.9000
Email: steven.bouton “at” grapesolar.com or garret.towne “at” grapesolar.com
2. Tell them you read this article, give them my name so they will credit me.
3. Give them your details, they will design a system to suit your needs free of charge. They’ll need your address, description of your view of the sky to the south (sometimes visible on Google Earth) plus your goals for electricity saving, (full replacement, supplemental, add as you go, etc.). Arrange financing if need be – note how I used my local bank to finance a loan against my savings account for a win-win.
4. Grape Solar will set you up with a custom order you can place on COSTCO.com that will include everything you will need. Then contact an installer. They’ll also supply a list of installers in your area if you don’t wish to do the work yourself. As I mentioned, you may be able to do some work yourself to help the installer to save money. Be sure to ask.
5. You’ll make the order with COSTCO, either you’ll need a credit card with a high limit or you’ll have to wire the money to COSTCO (which is what I did). BE SURE TO ASK TO HAVE YOUR COSTCO MEMBERSHIP NUMBER APPLIED TO THE SALE. This will ensure that if you have an account that gives you a rebate for year total purchases, you’ll get that year-end 2% cash back. 2% of a $20K system is $400, well worth the effort!
6. You have your installer get work permits and do the paperwork with your local utility company – this is key. Without these being done right, you are dead in the water. make sure your installer will do these for you.
7. Install the system – get it inspected and turned on. Submit final paperwork to your local utility company for any rebate programs they may have.
8. Keep all your paperwork for tax time – you may be eligible for tax credits – check with your tax preparer.
9. Enjoy a lower or zero power bill
============================
I hope this gives everyone who is interested the path forward. if you have questions about this please ask in comments. – Anthony
Doug Badgero says:
March 24, 2013 at 5:11 pm
It is not an economically sustainable business plan for the owners of the utility assets.
Not much doubt that statement is true … one of the very good things about this discussion and the comments is that this point has been well explained.
Interesting. I wonder if a combination natural-gas powered generator and one of these stationary batteries would be cheap enough to take us off the electric (but not natural gas) grid. I’m thinking about a NG generator for power outages anyway. . .
/Mr Lynn
Stephen Richards (March 24, 2013 at 2:58 pm) asks:
Have you factored in the cost of replacing the batteries and your likely resale value?
Answer: Yes. Perhaps you do not understand the term “life cycle costs” otherwise you would not have asked that question. BTW, have you accounted for the cost of all your oil, filter, spark plugs/wires, timing belt, PVC valves, emission system, extra brake use, etc.,, etc. in your car? And no fair saying “I do it all myself.” The analysis needs to be done with industry established values. When you go through the analysis you will find an electric car has about equal value in the “end” because of the much lower maintenance costs. However, when combined with a PV system, the next e-car gains by having “free” electricity from the get-go. Also, operating at 80% battery capacity after 8 years is still 80% “gasoline-free” transportation. This works for me, maybe not for you. I’m the one ending up with cash in my pocket each month and a bigger bank account after 20 years.
I’m greedy. I don’t want to own the entire town. I don’t want to own the nation. I don’t want to own the whole world. I want to own the solar system. (or at least Anthony’s.)
I’ve seen some comments about California’s renewable energy initiative, most not very savvy. Consider Hawaii. Hawaii has a very aggressive energy initiative (http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/ ): “The Hawai‘i Clean Energy Initiative is leading the way in relieving our dependence on oil by setting goals and a roadmap to achieve 70% clean energy by 2030 with 30% from efficiency measures, and 40% coming from locally generated renewable sources.”
The rationale behind this is not global warming but economic: Hawaii generates most of its electricity (and all transportation fuel) from imported oil (Alaskan oil is considered an import). See http://www.helcohi.com/vcmcontent/FileScan/PDFConvert/FuelOil.pdf. Importing oil is a net loss (drain) of about $4B to the Hawaiian economy (HI population is ~ 1M). When you consider that Hawaii is 2,500 miles from anywhere, you will begin to see the sense in trying to keep as much of that $4B circulating in the state.
I do not know if the same economic thinking is driving the CA renewable energy initiative. When you consider that most of the gas for heating and electricity generation and the gasoline for transportation is imported from out-of-state (consider Hawaii’s view of importing Alaska oil) it may well be based solely on economics: why send money to Venezuela or Indonesia or Texas or North Dakota for your transportation and electricity generation when you can generate it at home (state) and keep the cash in your local economy?
Anthony,
Do you also have powered venting for your roofing structure? Any decrease in the “delta T” of your attic space is also a great way to reduce your overall electric bill.
Really!!?? What is that $3.71 charge labelled “Distribution” for then (19th item/graphic down in the head post)?
Okay, fair enough, I’ll give you a break, as you’re in ‘generation’ and not in ‘accounts receivable’ (the billing or ‘business’ side of the house).
Please note also there is a charge for “Generation.”
.
Easy there ferd; there is a whole field of law devoted to utility easements or “easements in gross for utilities”, wherein the easements are detailed in the title/deed for the piece of property under consideration.
It’s a little late at this stage of the game for making those kinds of claims and furthermore, is against the grain of long-established established case law. If you go back (perhaps you will recall?) at one time, many of these ‘companies’ (power, water and sewer; in many cases water and sewer still are) municipal (city) owned facilities. Dallas Power and Light, Garland Power and Light, Ft Wayne Power and Light are a few that come to mind. Then there are member-owned co-operatives, where using ‘members’ own the company!
A few resources on easements et al, for further reading:
Utility Easement Law & Legal Definition
The legalities of property easements
Real Estate: Property Easements
.
JG says:
March 24, 2013 at 10:11 pm
Why buy cheap fossil energy when expensive wind and solar energy is available? Are you truly serious? I guess so. Here’s a few reasons off the top of my head
• Because charging customers like Anthony $0.92 per kilowatt-hour, which is the result of your brilliant ‘let’s push uneconomic renewables’ plan, is a ripoff.
• Because expensive energy hurts, impoverishes, and kills the poor.
• Because expensive energy is the most regressive tax imaginable, with no immunity at the bottom of the economic ladder—the poorer you are, the more it bites.
• Because expensive energy slows down the entire economy.
• Because subsidies distort the market and discourage investment in cheap energy sources.
There’s more reasons, but that will do for now. Your renewables quotas are harming and impoverishing poor people as we speak … you could start there.
w.
It is really sad that it was a big US corporation that dishonestly used environmental and safety issues to kill absorption cooling in favour of compression systems for commercial reasons. The old absorption systems were ideal for solar power and had maximum input at times of maximum demand.
Nice system Well thought out and designed.
As I’m more coastal, didn’t know about those incredible nearly $1 rates. Just crazy. At one time I “did the math” on a Honda 12 kW Diesel generator ( I was managing data centers then, and some of them during “bring up” didn’t have power yet, so we rented generators). Came up with an interesting “rule of thumb”. Cost per gallon of Diesel in dollars, move the decimal point over one, you have cost per kW-hr in cents. So with Diesel at $4.10, you get electricity at $0.41 / kW-hr. While it won’t be exactly that rate for all generators, it will be close. And while that doesn’t include maintenance / overhaul costs, used for “peaking” (i.e. infrequently) at 3000 hours or so MTBO, you can get a long life out of a few hours a day in the summer. Running it the other way, at 93 cents / kW-hr, that’s $9.30 / gallon of Diesel equivalent.
I think I’d pick up a small Diesel Generator and put in a transfer switch on the AC… ( I’ve seen them as small as 4 kW. Diesels are more efficient than the gasoline ones, and much more durable).
I’ve take a different approach than solar. Looked at it, but… well, the roof is old. Needs replacing “soon”. Then the neighbor ‘up sun’ planted some redwoods about 25 years ago… Glad to have the shade as I don’t need A/C now hardly at all, but I AM in the shade. So not solar.
My major use is for cooking. AEK All Electric Kitchen.
So I’ve been slowly moving cooking out onto the Patio. As I bake bread daily, it adds up in an electric oven. That is ended as of today. I’ve made a lovely loaf of bread in an oven sitting on a Coleman Camp Stove. ( I have a better stove ‘on order’).
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/butterfly-oven-added-feature/
I’ve also gotten good with the American Camp Oven AKA Dutch Oven.
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/saint-patricks-day-feast/
So using gasoline and charcoal. Not electricity. Why? Simple. It is far far cheaper.
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/camping-at-home-is-cheaper/
Charcoal, per BTU (Joule) is roughly the same cost as Gasoline, which here in California is one of the cheaper fuels available. But just in case for some reason those prices go “way high” under some kind of stupid “carbon tax”, it’s also possible to just burn wood from “yard waste”.
Am I happy about this? No, not really. Slowly moving backwards toward 3rd World cooking methods is not my idea of well thought out economy. But that’s what economics tells me to do. I do have natural gas in the house, and have a natural gas cooktop in hand. It’s planned to install it this summer. So far, natural gas is a bit cheaper than gasoline. (Propane is about the same as gasoline some times, sometimes a bit lower). With any luck, it will stay that way. (But if it doesn’t, I can always slide back down the fuel cost curve).
How burning fossil fuels or charcoal or wood improves the environment is beyond me. Yet that is what I am being pushed to do. Use PG&E Electricity? No, not interested, thanks…
During the time of Gov. Grey “out” Davis, we had rolling brown outs, black outs, and generally flakey 3rd world electricity reliabilty. At that time I started a ‘power stabilization’ process. Battery box. Inverter. Charger. The idea then was to just move the house onto a giant UPS. That way the power could come and go and I’d not care. I got most of the parts, then we voted out Grey “out” Davis and power stability returned. I still have those parts…
So looks like at some point (after the stove is done, and the “patio kitchen” is done being built) I’ll be getting those parts together along with buying a battery (the one part I’d not bought back then). At that point some of the house can be moved over onto the “giant UPS” and I can decide if I want to charge it in the dead of night, or if it is just cheaper to get a natural gas powered generator and turn natural gas into electriciy. Honda makes a very nice commercial cogeneration unit, but last I looked they only sold it in cold parts of the country (thinking California doesn’t need the heat produced… someone needs to tell them about swimming pools 😉
At any rate, different solutions for different places. Cold coastal vs hot valley.
We are anticipating a $1/2 tariff rate “Sometime Soon” for top usage here (not just peak AC times though). At that point, using my own Diesel to charge the battery box is economical. Simple peak clipping with charge / discharge off the grid too if we get TOD charges. (Right now I only get penalty rates for total usage). At that time I’ll make the decision of Nat Gas generator vs Diesel generator vs time shift vs “just say no” and make my own off grid system
It’s a bother, and I’d really rather not be “In the power business”, but it is what it is. Crazy.
Odd Sidebar: As I have an old Diesel car, and since Diesels are fairly consistent in efficiency for a variety of loads, I can get an add-on generator installed and just let my Diesel car run at modest speeds to charge a battery box. Don’t need to buy a big new Diesel unit. I would need to intall a ‘socket’ on the car, but not hard. So I could just leave it running in the garage on ‘low” with the battery box plugged into it as desired. Doubt I’ll go that way, but it’s an option. My average use is about 2 kW, and larger generators for ‘under the hood’ are available. After moving the AEK to “something else”, and if I leave the “sporadic peak” demand things like washer / dryer on the Grid, It ought to only take a few hours a day to top up the battery box. I’m sure a Diesel iddling away for 4 to 6 hours a day is not the best for the environment, but it’s cheaper than PG&E…
heh, couldn’t help but think of this recent article: http://www.orland-press-register.com/news/turbine-10891-miller-butte.html (short of it, taxpayers bought an 11kw wind turbine for ~$300k, simply to be “green”; solar panels were also recently installed, though they gave no info on their size or cost). You’re getting a typical daily peak 5KW for $25k? I’d be very curious to see how your $25k system compares long-term to their $300k system. I’m not sure the numbers you’re using for the 12 year break-even projection, but assuming an average of $0.30/kwh(based on your usage chart above, this is probably a high estimate), it looks like it would take that $300k system at least 10 years to break even assuming the wind blows constantly, generating a steady 11KW(obviously it won’t).
Nice one Anthony, but since I live in North Wales, I will pass on your advice; air conditioning is not an issue for us and just now it looks like we are well into a Maunder minimum.
With all the rain we have here, I was thinking more of a roof installed water turbine, do Costco offer any systems?
Better news on the UK political front, the Chancellor is keen on getting at the massive shale resource in North West England and North Wales and we look like restarting the UK nuclear programme.
With luck we can start to demolish the forest of rather useless wind turbines off the coast here, and restore the horizon for the joy of future generations.
Keep up the good work!
E.M. Smith wrote, ” … if I leave the “sporadic peak” demand things like washer / dryer on the Grid …”
Maybe you need Lehman’s Own Hand Washer. Not for washing your hands but so you can use your hands to wash your clothes.
https://www.lehmans.com/p-2398-lehmans-own-hand-washer.aspx
https://www.lehmans.com/p-4444-breathing-hand-washer.aspx
Anthony, you use the phrase ‘location tax’ in your article. Here in the UK we would probably call it a ‘post code tax’ so perhaps you should think about referring to it as a ‘zip code tax’. I think it adds a certain zip to the rip off you are being subjected to.
You can’t do this, you need to pay more taxes so the poor can have one. 😉 Nice work!!
I would also note that reapers of feed-in solar PV generated electricity are also getting the ability to use the utility company as a free storage. Thus in addition to the outright install subsidies, the distribution/always available cost subsidy, the feedin price subsidy, there is also a significant subsidy in the form of free stored power.
As was noted previously – it is perfectly rational for an individual to take advantage of these many subsidies, but the net result is an outright attack on poor people. Poor people can’t take out a $25K prepayment on their electricity bills for multiple years, and are the ones left holding the bag when the systemic costs are to be paid (i.e. overhead, transmission/distribution, storage, backup, etc)
Up here in the Southern Rocky Mt. Trench, the economics of solar and/or wind-powered residential power generation are much more murky. Although a grid-integrated system is almost certainly uneconomical here, I’m interested in a hybrid system, that would allow some payback from supplying the grid, while enabling use as a standalone power backup when the grid is down.
The idea is to combine locally stored propane (most commonly used for heating in my area), solar, and wind power generation together with a modest storage battery to weather power outages. But I haven’t been able to find any discussion of such a scheme, let alone an off-the shelf kit for modifying a grid installation.
Finding an affordable system for monitoring and recording wind and solar potential at the intended site is a serious obstacle as well. I find it very strange, given the amount of verbal “encouragement” government is giving for such home based power generation, that one has to spend many hundreds of dollars just to measure and record wind speed and solar radiation at a point on one’s rooftop.
I paid $60 (on sale) for a wind gauge that only displays its measurements in real time on an indoor monitor (via a Wifi transmitter connected to the gauge by cable), without any provision for recording. I’ve yet to come across any sort of consumer-oriented sensor for monitoring solar radiation.
Any pointers on addressing these issues would be appreciated
JG: I do not know if the same economic thinking is driving the CA renewable energy initiative.
It is not: the CA renewable energy initiative is driven by environmentalists desire to reduce CO2 emissions.
Posting rather late, just read this now. Couple things. First, if power rates are 40c in 20 years the economy will collapse. Example, here in Ontario power rates have doubled in the last 9 years thanks to green energy projects, mostly wind turbines. Companies who rely heavily on power are leaving like rats from a sinking ship. Other provinces and the US with lower rates are enticing these companies to move out of Ontario. Result is lower GDP grown, lower tax revenue for the province and a grotesque government deficit and debt (Ontario is worse off than California).
Power rates in Germany are so high now, though less than 15c, there are 500,000 Germans cut off because they can’t afford their power bills.
Should Thorium reactors gain a significant foothold before then, which is projected in China, India, Norway and Japan, power rates will collapse to below a dime, much below. So ultimately you wont save at all over the long run. Ask people who put in alternative heating systems to get off natural gas when it was skyrocketing in price, now collapsed because of shale gas (the graph before shale gas of future NG rates looked the same as your future power rates).
Next, as more people decided to go solar, less demand in the summer for 90c power will happen. That will drop the spot price. What will also drop the spot price is companies moving out of California due to high rates.
So, bottom line is, you are taking a huge risk. Not one I’m willing to do here in Ontario where we have abundant hydro power, abundant nuclear power, and excess power due to too many wind turbines (and counting). The spot price in Ontario around 2-3c, often going negative when we have to dump our wind excess to the US market. (now I said power rates have double, so how can the spot price be 2-3C? It’s doubled because to pay for wind at 15c the government adds a “global adjustment” to all bills. That GA is about 5-6c on top of the spot, bringing our highest rate to 11c in peak demand periods. The lower the spot, the higher the GA).
Re: the bolded above –
Clue or no clue? – Am I reading you right or no? There appears to be a charge for this, the amount of which appears in the head post in this thread … in about the 19th exhibit (hint: Look for the term “Distribution”). Are ppl consistently missing this, or am I in error?
It would then appear that this is rather an accounting ‘exercise’, vs something gained ‘for free’ (although I am not about to do the fine-grained economics analysis on this owing to time constraints on my part.)
Note also the ERCOT system in Texas shares ‘power’ occasionally with a couple adjacent systems via several DC ‘tie lines’; reimbursement of which is made by “in kind” repayment by way of equal but opposite energy flows for “settlement” (one of the two parties paying back the other what may be owed to other party). This looks to be done to avoid the transfer (payment) of any monies, thereby avoiding certain federal laws that would otherwise come into ‘play’, applicable as “interstate commerce”.
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@Speed:
I’d rather have my robot wash the clothes and dishes, thanks… Just need to make some e- food for it at the cheapest rate possible. 😉
The CPUC is currently evaluating rate designs-
http://energyathaas.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/marketing-solar-part-two/
..”PG&E is using what are called “increasing block rates”: the price per kWh is increasing in the number of kWh we buy – the opposite of a volume discount. Here’s the thing: California regulators are currently considering flattening the increasing block rate structure. This could have a large impact on the savings from solar panels…….”
I just “did the math” on a typical Honda gasoline generator (gasoline generators are not nearly as efficient as Diesels) and it gets a 1.56 more consumption than the old Honda Diesel (that I think is no longer made). I used the EU2000i that is max 2 kW and continuous rated 1.6 kW.
At the present gasoline prices here of $4.10 / gallon for regular, you can “make your own” electricity at 64 cents / kW-hr fuel costs. That means it is economical to put a transfer switch (or even just a large plug…) on your Air Conditioning and during those $1 peaks, swap it onto a gasoline generator. Crazy, I know, but that’s what the costing says.
As I have a mandatory generator (due to living in Quake Country) it is a sunk cost for me. THE biggest issue I have with it is the gasoline getting “stale” and that the thing may not be run for a couple of years in a row. So doing occasional “use to prove it still works” and “turn over the gasoline” would be a feature, not a detriment.
As your “peak rate times” are likely just a few hours of the day, and even then, only some days of the year, I’d guess it at about 200 hours / year. Not hard to put that onto a private generator…
I do like your PV solution better, but for folks in the shade, well, even a gas generator is a win on fuel costs. If, instead of $4 gasoline, you use the (roughly) $1.5 / GGE (gallon of gas equivalent) natural gas (conversion kits for generators are available) that drops it to 24 cents / kW-hr which starts to be something of a ‘no brainer’… It covers everything but your baseline low price tier.
Golly.
http://www.generatorsales.com/
Have a 4 kW w/ Honda engine propane / nat gas unit for about $1k (would need to provide your own sound dampening enclosure) and a portable one using Yamaha and 2 kW (or so) in the $1100 to $1500 price range. (with sound dampening built in)
At peak, it would save about 70 cents / kW-hr AFTER fuel costs. So 1400 hours run time to pay for the capital cost of the DIY one. I think that’s likely “doable”, though you end up in “overhaul land” somewhere in there. Then again, if you don’t run it flat out at 4 kW it will likely last longer.
The same folks have Diesels that are small, too, so a 4 kW with enclosure at $1.6 k and one without enclosure for $1.2 k.
http://www.generatorsales.com/diesel-generators.asp
No idea what brand or quality. It is possible to put some nat gas into a Diesel, but it takes a certain understanding of some complex stuff. Not for the feint of heart… So likely need to keep it on Diesel for most folks.
OK, two easy DIY solutions. One on Nat Gas with lower capital appliance life at 24 cents / kW-hr that will show up on your PG&E bill as more nat gas usage. One on Diesel at about 41 cents / kW-hr and you buy fuel wherever you want. (Likely one could get ‘off road’ Diesel for about $3.40 / gallon or 34 cent / kW-hr costs…) Capital cost about $1500.
Well. Looks like PG&E is pricing themselves out of the market and DIY is being priced in.
If I lived on a farm, in the country, or anywhere I could run a semi-quiet generator and not wake the neighbors, I’d be exploring it. (And finding out MTBO and overhaul costs).
@kakatoa:
Maybe PG&E is noticing the impact of “people like me” who are happy to use the patio propane BBQ / grill / oven and tell them to “stuff it” on the AEK at 30 cents / kW-hr between lunch and dinner. I’d certainly not be cooking between noon and night if in Anthony’s zone at nearly $1 a kW-hr. The burner on my AEK stove (All Electric Kitchen) comes in two sizes. 1 kW and 2 kW. So if I’ve got 3 of them going ( main dish, starch, vegetable) at about 1/2 power, call it 2 kW for 1/2 an hour. So they want $1 for me to cook dinner. And another one for lunch. $2 / day. That’s 1/2 gallon of propane… with money to pay for the gas to drive and get it…
(I grew up near Chico. In summer, it’s hot at 10 am and doesn’t cool down until 9 pm)
I can easily see a whole lot of folks deciding to just “Hit the patio” and tell PG&E to “stuff it”.
I have, and my peak rate is “only” 30 something cents… (I bake bread daily and now have a “patio oven” skipping the need for my AEK oven anymore. I’m “flexible” on fuel it can use. Any of Propane, Gasoline, Kerosene, Charcoal, wood from the yard, whatever… ) So starting this month, my PG&E electric consumption will drop about 60 to 90 kw-hrs / month. Doesn’t take too many folks “like me” to start showing up in their numbers… It will show up especially as a big “diner time peak clip”. I’m going “flatline” to basic “lights and entertainment center”. (And once a week washer / dryer). With ideas about how to move the “flatline” onto “other fuels via DIY” over time.)
“It’s a bad idea to annoy the Geek. -E.M.Smith” and PG&E has annoyed the geek…