UPDATE: Via Business Insider, my posit that this was a typo is confirmed. See below.
At first I didn’t believe this, but there it is on the Federal bids page, screencap and link below. See the screencaps for an explantion. – Anthony
Via Drudge and Infowars:
National Weather Service Follows DHS In Huge Ammo Purchase
Hollow point bullets designed to cause maximum organ damage
Paul Joseph Watson
Infowars.com
Tuesday, August 14, 2012
Why would the National Weather Service need to purchase large quantities of powerful ammo? That’s the question many are asking after the federal agency followed in the footsteps of the Department of Homeland Security in putting out a solicitation for 46,000 rounds of hollow point bullets.
A solicitation which appears on the FedBizOpps website asks for 16,000 rounds of .40 S&W jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets, noted for their strength, to be delivered to locations in Ellsworth, Maine, and New Bedford, Mass.
A further 6,000 rounds of S&W JHP will be sent to Wall, New Jersey, with another 24,000 rounds of the same bullets heading to the weather station in St. Petersburg, Florida.
The solicitation also asks for 500 paper targets to be delivered to the same locations in Maine, Massachusetts and New Jersey.
The National Weather Service is is one of six scientific agencies that make up the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).
The solicitation requires a response by August 21.
=================================================================
At first I thought maybe this was for bear/elk protection of technicians when they go to service some of those remote weather stations in the Maine woods. The bid solicitation has the Marine Fisheries Service listed as the buyer. NOAA does have game wardens for commercial ocean fishing and game fishing, but why would they route it through the National Weather Service, which has no such programs? This is either a typo, or one of those convoluted government tree structures.
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UPDATE: Business Insider, who reported on the issue last night, has the story (h/t to WUWT reader Timothy Ray Erney). As I noted above, it was a typo.
We talked to Scott Smullen, the Deputy Director of NOAA Communications & External Affairs who says the announcement is a mistake and is apparently being corrected at the time of this writing.
From Scott’s email:
Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement personnel in their firearms qualifications and training.
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UPDATE, 1:07 p.m.: NOAA spokesman Scott Smullen emailed the following statement, clarifying the ammunition order is for fisheries law enforcement, as we suspected:
Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement agents in their twice annual target qualifications and training.
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Why target practice with hollow point, rather than wad cutters?
16,000 rounds for 63 officers isn’t enough for 5 rounds per officer per week. Not exactly a generous ammunition allowance for training. Pretty much any semi-competitive shooter will use far more than that allowance.
Regarding JHP vs FMJ, what about the costs of procurement and allocating seperate practice/qualification and carry ammunition? Also given the high price of copper, whether FMJ’s really are much cheaper now.
From ron in austin on August 14, 2012 at 10:01 am:
It’s a good idea to train. Learn the skills to get on the target, then to hit where you want to on the target.
If you’re using a proper hold, aiming center of mass, and you’re worried that different ammo will make the bullet go too high or low and you’ll miss, you’re too far away for a handgun IMO.
When using different bullet styles, match the bullet weight very closely and the muzzle velocity reasonably closely. Then you’re matching the amount of recoil so the different ammo will “feel” the same. For semi-automatics it’s a check on reliable functioning, as they need a minimum of recoil to operate but too much causes battering of surfaces and possible malfunction.
With those matched, the starting part of the projectile trajectory should be matched. Different bullet shapes will affect the ending part of the trajectory, as different amounts of energy will be lost, resulting in different amounts of bullet “drop”. Again, if you’re far enough away that you’re worried about that, you’re too far away for a handgun. Mainly because it’s harder to get the horizontal positioning right at those distances. On a human-like target, if you aim for center of mass, like the bottom of the rib cage, and hit the shoulder or the leg instead, it’s still a disabling hit. That amount of difference right or left means a miss instead. My experience may be limited, but I have found and read many times how it’s easier to screw up sideways.
When you are “elite” enough that you want to and expect to make headshots consistently, then worry about using the same ammo always.
As hollow point 40 cal bullets (for reloading) cost the same as full copper jacket (FMJ), it would be reasonable to order rounds that could be used i practice and in the field. With reloads, one always has to have some factory rounds for guns to be used in self-defense, as reloads cause litigious conditions, claiming that one put more or less powder in the round in order to inflict more pain and suffering.
As reloads quite often are not as powerful as the factory rounds, practice with the real ones would be more directly worthwhile. One shooter pointed out that frangible bullets are so light that you have to adjust your shooting habits, or you end up shooting low. When first learning how to reload, I backed off on the 357 magnum loads such that I basically had a 38 Special round.
Too funny. A primitive and ineffective way to do cloud bursting. Reminds me of the Kate Bush song
on another note a pro-skeptic article went up on the Reg
Arctic ICE PANIC sparked by half-baked sat data!
Did someone just jump the gun?
By Andrew Orlowski
Some of the comments here are obviously from people who don’t know squat about ammo. JHP is primarily for use against people. Hunters typically don’t use JHP because it doesn’t penetrate deep enough for a quick kill against large game. For boars, bears, etc. you need a hard cast solid lead slug or a large caliber rifle round that will go thru at least 8″ of hide, muscle, and bone without breaking up into small pieces within the first couple inches of penetration. You shoot a medium size boar or a bear with a measly .40 JHP and all you’re going to do is piss them off. I hunt boar with a Ruger .41 magnum using a 230 grain hardcast bullet, and even then you better hit the right spot.
A .40cal JHP round hits with less than 400ft/lbs at 50 yds. My Ruger hits with over 1000ft/lbs.
Clearly the NSW seeks maximum stopping power when dealing with CAGW climate skeptics.
RE: Atomic Hairdryer@August 14, 2012 at 1:20 pm
I can only say that the Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger JHP I bought retail at Academy last week to replace what I shot up was $21.99 for 25 rounds. The Remington 9mm 115 gr JHP was also $21.99, but for 50 rounds. On-line might be cheaper. I quit buying ammo at Walmart when they quit selling handguns.
CORRECTION: The Remington 9mm was Full Metal Jacket, not JHP.
Watch out all us skeptics..they know who we are and where we live, remember that quote from not so long ago?……seriouslyLOL LOL LOL if their shooting skills are the same as the quasi science and some of the forecasts we’ve nothing worry about
“Shooting fish in a barrel” might be their next convention activity.
Looks like the National Weather Service is finally getting serious about hunting down those vandals who’ve been turning category 1 & 2 sensor stations into category 3, 4, or 5. 🙂
I believe if you look into it you’ll find that virtually all federal armed agents carry the .40 S&W as their standard sidearm (FBI, CIA, DEA, ICE, Federal Marshals, etc.). It’s a matter of standardization. Most police officers carry .40 S&W these days as well. I haven’t seen a cop with a revolver in probably 20 years (and it was a .41 Magnum). I don’t remember how long ago it was…maybe 3 decades ago…..most of the FBI carried the venerable 9mm. The 9mm is an amazing round in terms of energy, velocity, relatively mild recoil, and extremely efficient use of materials (i.e. brass and lead). Both the 9mm and the .45 ACP were developed over 100 years ago. They were both designed as man killers and not for hunting. There were two schools of thought at the time. The 9mm sent a smaller, lighter projectile downrange at greater velocity with high penetration. It also allowed greater magazine capacity. On the other hand, the .45 ACP delivered a larger, much heavier, slower round downrange with far more kinetic energy (i.e. “knock down” power). But it is also associated with a more robust recoil.. John Browning was onto to something when developed the .45 ACP. Most handgun engagement occur at a range of less than 30 yards. If you hit a human in the shoulder with a .45 ACP they WILL fall down. A 9mm might just pass through without disabling the “bad guy.” The US military still issued the .45 ACP 1911 pistol until just about 20 years ago or so and then switched to the newer, more potent, lighter 9mm with far greater magazine capacity and lighter recoil. Target reacquisition after the first shot it critical in a gun fight.
The FBI commissioned the development of a new round to replace the 9mm for their agents. There were a couple of incidents where they shot and hit perps who didn’t fall down but kept shooting back. They decided they needed more knock down power in a semi-auto. Actually a .357 magnum revolver would have done the trick but they’re a bit bulkier, have more recoil and have to be reloaded after 6 shots. The 10mm auto and the .45 ACP had too much recoil for smaller agents and many female agents. Two new rounds were developed, the .40 S&W and one other I can’t recall (.41 action express?). In the end the .40 S&W won out. I reload both 9mm and .40 S&W. The ..40 S&W is basically a slightly beefed 9mm. Case dimensions are virtually the same except the 40 is 1mm wider. It performs much like the time tested 9mm except it sends a significantly heavier projectile downrange faster than a .45 ACP but slower than a 9mm. It’s only slightly larger and heaver than a 9mm and the recoil is only moderately greater. It delivers more kinetic energy on target and can be loaded in high capacity magazines. Soon just about every armed federal agency had switched over to the .40 S&W (as has a lot of law enforcement). But the .40 S&W remains a man killer. It is completely unacceptable for game. It’s a personal defense law enforcement round.
I load and reload my own ammo with Hornady JHP (XTP) to medium to high charges. When I practice, I shoot the same round as I would carry. It has to do with muscle memory. When I go plinking I shoot the cheap stuff. think a lot of cops (who don’t buy their own ammo) also train with what they carry.on duty.. So huge government orders of one particular round is not too surprising, nor is it that they ordered .40 S&W. That it would go to the NWS is the big question. But hell, it seems like every bureaucrat wants to be armed these days (the IRS, the Dept of Education, etc.).
I have not been able to afford to buy my preferred self-defense ammo, Federal EFMJ .40 for the government demands on production facilities has driven the cost to levels once seen for .50 BMG. Purposeful or not, gun control through the economies of ammunition is effectively reducing citizens’ supplies. Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth.
Infowars is a notoriously unreliable source. It and PrisonPlanet are the web sites of Alex Jones, who gives lunatics a bad name.
Jones “thinks” (I use the word loosely) that secret conspiracies or space aliens are “the world’s controllers.” He says the government is intentionally poisoning you with vaccines and fluoride to keep you docile.
Here Jones tells his radio audience what he thinks of American conservatives, and here he is in action, abusing Michelle Malkin, who is the petite lady in the video.
“””””…..Mac the Knife says:
August 14, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Bill Yarber says:
August 14, 2012 at 9:13 am
Because the terrorists Tea Party Patriots are expected to riot after stealing of the next election…..”””””
Right on Mac !
I also have attended a couple of Taxed Enough Already “Peacable Assemblies”; the earliest ones held on April 15 TAX days, and a more polyglot friendly bunch of calm rational people of ALL ages, and ALL ethnicities, and ALL social and economic strata, and ALL collar colors, one could never hope to meet.
Courteous, and sober, and harming NO person or property, co-operating fully with local law officers (who got bored to tears, having to stand there as if somebody expected they would be needed). And leaving the meeting place a darn side cleaner and tidier, than before the event.
Simply making it known to THEIR government; that just a little paying attention to the US Constitution, would go a long way toward “domestic tranquility.”
The blatant stupidity of TEA party critics, is their own undoing; because THEY themselves confess their ignorance, since if they had EVER attended a TEA party rally, they simply couldn’t say any of the dumb things they write and spout; well not with a straight face anyway.
Re: .40 cal not so good for bears… true…, but significantly better than bells.
Americans and their guns!
Btw, in case nobody has noticed, there’s a lot of very big cons, and druggies running around loose who make a habit of wearing kevlar. A .40 won’t even tickle them.
@ur momisugly Dr. Dave says:
August 14, 2012 at 2:21 pm
I believe if you look into it you’ll find that virtually all federal armed agents carry the .40 S&W as their standard sidearm………………
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Just to bring people up to date: The .45acp 1911 style sidearms (old ones that are refurbished and upgraded by the service armorers) are still issued to SOC and military police forces, and in fact the USMC just bought 12,000 brand new upgraded .45’s from Colt. Specifically because the 9mm Beretta that was mandated by Congress wasn’t getting the job done. The M45 CQB pistol: http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/News/tabid/84/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/54/Colt-Defense-LLC-Announces-Award-of-Marine-Corps-M45-Close-Quarter-Battle-Pistol-CQBP-Contract.aspx
This pistol and ammo will be around for quite a while.
Maybe they read Anthony et al’s paper and are going to put all those bad stations out of their misery?
Gunga Din says:
August 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Maybe they read Anthony et al’s paper and are going to put all those bad stations out of their misery?
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Hah! loved that comment, now just need the Josh cartoon to follow!!
The comments about not stocking multiple types of ammo are (you should excuse the expression) dead on. What makes sense for an individual to do in switching between FMJ and HP does not necessarily make sense for govt procurement, inventory tracking, issuing, etc. Moreover govt personnel get much less range time than private shooters, so authentic muscle memory with the carry ammo is really critical to make their limited training time valuable. I also train sometimes with HP, because I don’t get to train as often as I’d like and if I ever need to self-defend I intend to be *effective* at it, despite being a 60 yr old woman.
Comments about numbers of targets vs. rounds ammo don’t take into account the likelihood that they have targets in stock and are just topping up – not to mention that the ammo being purchased might be for carry rather than for practice. Really, guys …..
BTW, MPs sometimes carry the higher caliber pistols, too, despite the NATO 9mm standard for most troops who carry sidearms. FWIW
They are going to shoot anybody who takes a photo of a weather station. As long as you take the 46,001 th photo you will survive.
Thanks Anthony – if not a typo – maybe a possible preparation for upcoming super solar storm/grid failure ?