A Matter of Some Gravity

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”

So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.

The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is

Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4

where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.

This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)

Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun  with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.

Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.

On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?

Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.

The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:

1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.

2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.

In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:

• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.

• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.

• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.

• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

 OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.

I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.

So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?

But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.

I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.

The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.

So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.

But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

Q.E.D.

Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:

… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.

Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.

And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.

But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …

TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.

w.

NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.

Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.

NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.

But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.

NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:

Water, 0.96

Fresh snow, 0.99

Dry sand, 0.95

Wet sand, 0.96

Forest, deciduous, 0.95

Forest, conifer, 0.97

Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94

and so on down to things like:

Mouse fur, 0.94

Glass, 0.94

You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.

I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …

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Vergent
January 14, 2012 5:49 pm

On a rotating planet without an atmosphere, there is a big temperature difference between night and day. Add an atmosphere, and the daytime high temperatures are lower because of conduction and convection, and a larger thermal mass to apply the energy to. Therefore the daytime radiation is reduced. At equilibrium, the nighttime increase in radiation must equal the day reduction.
“The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power.”
Because of the S-B equation, the night time temperatures must rise more than the daytime temperatures were reduced.
Therefore, the average temperature must rise.

January 14, 2012 5:53 pm

Dear Willis,
I have no dog in this fight, I’m just a bystander. But you obviously do, and it seems so in a bad way. I don’t know or care who bit you on the ass, but by the timbre of your responses they struck a nerve. Some of your comments are excerpted below, all quoted as you prefer. I always enjoyed your writings and mostly agreed with the content, but you’ve come off the rails. Sorry that you’ve lost it emotionally…. Your responses belittle you and that is the sad part, and you can never tale any of it back, it’s out there forever.
Please clip this response as this is a personal message. What’s important is that you re-read these quotes below, maybe after a couple of beers. This is all you in the mirror, and it’s not pretty. Feel free to contact me directly if you feel like lambasting me as well. My name directs to my website and my email.
Best,
J.
“That’s it? That’s my crime? You are busting me because I called ten to the minus eighth tiny? You are a waste of bandwidth, sir. I specifically requested that people not bother me with this kind of petty nit-picking, and yet here you are.
Come back when you have something of substance to say, and my advice for your optics would be to leave off the “OMG”, it makes you sound like a Valley Girl.”
“Alexander, the amazing thing about you is that your bull is so convincing I always have to shake my head. Here’s what Wikipedia says about what they call the “Stefan-Boltzmann law”, complete with hyphen:
The law was deduced by Jožef Stefan (1835–1893) in 1879 on the basis of experimental measurements made by John Tyndall and was derived from theoretical considerations, using thermodynamics, by Ludwig Boltzmann (1844–1906) in 1884.
Go away, sir, your impudence knows no bounds. You haven’t a tenth of the knowledge you claim.”
“Why is it that when a charming fellow like you make some idiotic statement that clearly violates conservation of energy, they feel they have to finish it off by insulting my understanding? Medica, cura te ipsum …”
“PS—I note that you have not given us the elevator speech for your “theory of gravitational enhancement”. Until you rectify that egregious omission, why are you opening your mouth about your theory? I do love that your theory claims that you can’t have a GHG-free atmosphere, that’s a new one for me.”
“Tallbloke, I said I would snip. I’m snipping. Don’t pretend to be surprised, it makes you look meretricious. Screenshot all you wish, I have nothing to hide.”
“Because either you can tell us, simply and clearly, how your “Jelbring effect” is supposed to work, or you are worse than useless and should just audit the discussion because you have nothing to add.
This is crunch time, Hans, this is where the rubber hits the road. There’s enough heat already, give us some light. Give us your elevator speech about your grand theory that will revolutionize science. Explain your stupendous ideas clearly in a few well-thought-out sentences. You’ll never have a better or larger audience for your words.
You and I have spent hours on this topic. I still don’t understand how the “Jelbring Effect” works. So fight my ignorance, let me know clearly and cleanly just what happens first, and what happens next, see my example of an “elevator speech” in the head post.
Or walk away, I truly don’t care, Hans. This kind of stuff hurts my head, which I should have examined for posting this thread …”
“The problem was not your error. We all make those.
It was that you were acting like a jerkwagon about it, insulting people for their stupidity when you were the one being stupid.
And the problem is not that you made a fool of yourself, it’s not all about you, really. The problem is that you insulted everyone, and you still haven’t apologized for that, only for your “it’s all about me” mistake …”
“I do love people who start out by saying they don’t profess to any real knowledge, and end up by telling me that what I’ve said is impossible …
TimC, you are right. You don’t even have enough knowledge to ask intelligent questions. I don’t wish to be cruel, but in such a situation, just listen and learn, OK?”
“Unfortunately the link where people can actually see what Hans Jelbring said in his 2003 paper was lost in the carnage of Willis’ censorship spree. Here it is again:
[SNIP: No, you cannot use my thread to drive traffic to your site. Nice try though. -.w]”
“God damn it, Leonard, QUOTE MY WORDS. I have no recollection of saying anything of the sort, I don’t know the context, I don’t know if you understood me, I haven’t a clue what you are referring to. STOP THIS VAGUE ACCUSATORY BULLSHIT AND QUOTE MY WORDS.
Is that so hard to understand?”
“Is stupidity catching? I provided chapter and verse from the IPCC showing that all gases will NOT absorb and emit at all frequencies, and you come back without a cite at all and tell us in essence ‘They do too radiate’!
No, kiwi, they don’t. Hie thee to a textbook, your slip is showing.”
“The point is that you were a dickhead about it, insulting me, and insulting the other posters for “following my lead”. Nor did you apologize for acting like a prick, you only say “sorry I made a mistake”. That’s why I said “go away”. You insult people, then you pretend there was no insult.”
“Well gosh, Alexander, if you don’t like the site then … I hate to say it, but in that case here’s a novel idea—go away. I will not blow in your ear and pat your tummy and pretend to be your friend when you come in here to tell us all what absolute jerks we are and you lambaste people for following my lead. You want someone to blow in your ear, you’ll have to apply to another thread. Here, on the other hand, you might actually learn something. Up to you, I’m not banning you.”
“Dissatisfied with being able to ban people and post whatever you want on your own website, you now want to tell me what we should post on this website? … TB, you’re losing the plot. I have no responsibility and no desire to spread Jelbrings ascientific BS around, that’s up to you and him. If folks here want to find it I have faith that they can, their google-fu is strong …
I notice you still haven’t provided an elevator speech explaining H&N’s theory, which certainly fits with my belief that you don’t understand it any better than I do … yet despite not understanding it, you ban people for saying it violates conservation of energy.
How does that work again?”
“I swear, some people just don’t know when to quit. BZZZZZT! Sorry, wrong. Next contestant, please.”
“That’s it? You’ve run out of real points and are reduced to simple insults? Disappointing, but OK, I’ll play if that’s what you want, although I’d prefer to discuss the science.
Here’s one from my childhood, an insult for a cowboy:
You’re all hat and no cattle!
Gosh, isn’t this fun? Your turn …”

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 5:58 pm

Willis sez:
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface.

But earlier in the post Willis Sez:
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation.
Can I add oxygen and Nitrogen (AKA nearly all the air) to this list Willis? If so, what prevents the heat conducted and convected from the surface into the air being radiated to space by the GHG free model atmosphere as well as the surface?

Alan Wilkinson
January 14, 2012 5:58 pm

Ed Fix: “The planet doesn’t have any less gravity than it did before, so where did the energy come from?”
Gravity is a (classical physics) force, not an energy. Forces are unchanged by work done by or against them. The energy came from the original work done in separating the planet and the gases and is now being returned when they are brought back together.

beaker
January 14, 2012 6:00 pm

Willis said:
Thanks, beaker, but that’s not true. There are two kinds of what are usually called night vision devices, image enhancement and thermal imaging. I’m speaking of the second of these. See here for details.
Those of us in the industry always chuckle at what you can find on the web. Thermal imaging is not night vision. Night vision is not thermal imaging. Each has it’s own specific use. Thermal imaging is useless if there are no radiating bodies in the FOV. Night vision is useless if there is no ambient light, even starlight. Each uses a completely different technology. I have been working 20 years with each.
Willis, you have your specialty. I have mine.

Alan Wilkinson
January 14, 2012 6:03 pm

tallbloke: “Can I add oxygen and Nitrogen (AKA nearly all the air) to this list Willis? If so, what prevents the heat conducted and convected from the surface into the air being radiated to space by the GHG free model atmosphere as well as the surface?”
No. Because anything that radiates in the infra red spectra is a GHG model by definition of the GHG process.

Dr. Dave
January 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Willis,
I may be risking a dreaded [snip] here, but I’ll take my chances. I read your piece and I agree with you. It’s not entirely different from what Dr. Roy Spencer wrote on his site a few days ago. I have plodded through something like 400+ comments. They have been mostly entertaining, some informative, some that produced laughter and some that induced cringing. But now I am worrying that your blood alcohol content is dangerously low. Rather than engaging the gormless cavilers or pursuing a slap fight with Tallbloke, why not step away from the keyboard and have a couple of beers?
This stuff is interesting, but it’s not all that damn important. You’re just not your usual erudite, polite and cheerful self. I recommend a moderate dose of alcohol.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 6:11 pm

Anthony Watts says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:09 pm
I’ve closed the other two threads on this subject since they were getting a bit ragged and Shore-worn, and directed everyone here to this thread.

Lol, nice one Anthony. Sorry to hear you had to close two threads though on such an important topic though. The Shore effect in action. It Shore isn’t going to happen on my site.

Vergent
January 14, 2012 6:23 pm

Willis,
Your error is this. You said:
“But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.”
This is true for a body of uniform temperature.
What was needed for your “proof”:
“But when the average temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises…the surface radiation must rise.”
This is not true. consider the moon; cool the hot side, and then warm the cold side until the total radiation is equal. You will have warmed the cold side more because of the S-B equation. The average temperature will go up.
Vergent

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 6:24 pm

Alan Wilkinson says:
January 14, 2012 at 6:03 pm (Edit)
tallbloke: “Can I add oxygen and Nitrogen (AKA nearly all the air) to this list Willis? If so, what prevents the heat conducted and convected from the surface into the air being radiated to space by the GHG free model atmosphere as well as the surface?”
No. Because anything that radiates in the infra red spectra is a GHG model by definition of the GHG process.

I thought GHG’s were the gases that absorb IR as well as emit it. Can we have the definition of GHG agreed please Willis.
Thanks
TB.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 6:29 pm

Willis, how come everyone else is expected to stick to elevator speeches but you get to publish long self pitying diatribe? Now that Anthony has redirected the refugees from the “Shore worn” N&Z threads here, you need to relax, and relax the rules.

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 6:30 pm

Mathematical proof that GHG cools the surface of planet earth
terminology:
==X==> denotes energy flow from left to right, called X.
<==Y==> denotes two way energy flow between right and left, called Y.
<==Z== denotes energy flow from right to left, called Z.
In an atmosphere with GHG
(1) space <==A== surface(r) <==B==> ghg ==C==> space
total energy incoming from sun = net energy emitted to space by GHG atmosphere + net energy emitted to space by surface(r)
(2) A + C = solar energy in = radiation out to space
In an atmosphere without GHG (non radiating),
(3) space <==D== surface(n) <==E==> no ghg ==F==> zero radiation to space
total energy incoming from sun = net energy emitted to space by surface(n)
(4) D + F = solar energy in = radiation out to space
However, since F = 0, this becomes
(5) D = solar energy in = radiation out to space
Assume that in (1) above the surface is warmer than the atmosphere, and the net energy flow is positive from surface to GHG atmosphere. (1) can then be rewritten as:
(6) space <==A== surface ==H==> ghg ==C==> space
Flow C takes part of its energy from the flow from the surface to ghg (flow H), plus the net energy absorbed directly from the sun by the GHG that re-radiates as C. Thus we can say that:
(7) H + net solar absorbed by GHG reradiated as C = C
Since net solar absorbed by GHG > 0, then we can say than in all cases with a GHG atmosphere, that:
(8) H < C
from (2) we have:
A + C = solar energy in = radiation out to space
And from (5) we have
D = solar energy in = radiation out to space
Therefore we can say
(9) A + C = D
and from (8) we have
H < C
Therefore
(10) D = A + C > A + H
Therefore
(11) D > A + H
Since D and (A+H) vary as 4th power of Temp by S-B
(12) Temp(D) > Temp(A+H)
Since
Temp(A+H) = surface(r) temp with GHG atmosphere
Temp(D) = surface(n) temp of planet with non GHG atmosphere
Therefore, because of (12) the surface will be hotter on a planet with a non radiant (non GHG) atmosphere.
QED

January 14, 2012 6:33 pm

The if we separated the atmosphere including the oceans from the earth it would be a small ball of ice floating in space just like a large comet, wouldn’t the temperature of the earths surface be greater as a black body under a source of energy without an atmosphere?.

eyesonu
January 14, 2012 6:36 pm

Very interesting thread.
There is certainly no Pal Review here.
This is science review. What went wrong over the past 20 years? I hope this is the new normal which would be the old normal prior to Pal Review.

January 14, 2012 6:36 pm

*Sorry, Then, if…

Ed Fix
January 14, 2012 6:36 pm

PaulR says:
January 14, 2012 at 5:17 pm
The extra energy came from … a transformation of potential energy … into the kinetic energy of linear motion…

Paul, you must have had the same physics text I did. Was it “Halliday and Resnick”, like I used, or “Halliday, Resnick and Walker” like my son used?
Basically, I can’t get past the fact that if an object is released in a gravitational field, it accelerates without gravity being depleted in any way. [SNIP: please, no philosophical speculations on gravity. It’s a field. To move against it takes energy. To move with it gives you energy. No one knows why. w.]

LazyTeenager
January 14, 2012 6:39 pm

Genghis says
Gravity is going to compress the entire column of air down to about 17km. That compression heats the air and establishes the lapse rate, greatest density at the bottom and less density at the top.
———–
So calculate the temperature developed under this scheme.
I think you will be surprised that the temperature you get bears no relation to the actual lapse rare either measured or calculated from the known theory of lapse rate..

Alan Wilkinson
January 14, 2012 6:44 pm

tallbloke: “I thought GHG’s were the gases that absorb IR as well as emit it”.
Absorption and emission are symmetric processes. If it emits then it absorbs in the same manner afaik.

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