A Matter of Some Gravity

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”

So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.

The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is

Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4

where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.

This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)

Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun  with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.

Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.

On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?

Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.

The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:

1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.

2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.

In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:

• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.

• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.

• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.

• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

 OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.

I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.

So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?

But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.

I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.

The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.

So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.

But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

Q.E.D.

Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:

… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.

Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.

And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.

But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …

TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.

w.

NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.

Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.

NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.

But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.

NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:

Water, 0.96

Fresh snow, 0.99

Dry sand, 0.95

Wet sand, 0.96

Forest, deciduous, 0.95

Forest, conifer, 0.97

Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94

and so on down to things like:

Mouse fur, 0.94

Glass, 0.94

You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.

I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …

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LazyTeenager
January 14, 2012 4:11 pm

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
——————-
Thanks Willis, this works for me.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 4:13 pm

QUOTE MY WORDS. I have no recollection of saying anything of the sort, I don’t know the context, I don’t know if you understood me, I haven’t a clue what you are referring to. STOP THIS VAGUE ACCUSATORY BULLSHIT AND QUOTE MY WORDS.
I can imagine Hans Jelbring is probably thinking similar thoughts so if you don’t want to have the link to his paper I provided on your thread because you think I’m placing it to drive traffic to my site then copy his paper and upload it here and link it in the headline post so people can judge what he is saying for themselves instead of having to trust your VAGUE ACCUSATORY BULLSHIT
Thank you.
TB.

willb
January 14, 2012 4:17 pm

@Willis Eschenbach
One thing puzzles me with regard to your elevator speech about the greenhouse effect: you don’t include or even acknowledge the role of the lapse rate. My understanding is that it is fundamental to the greenhouse effect and just as important to the GHE as the presence of greenhouse gases. Say for example that the lapse rate is zero. Doesn’t this imply there will be no greenhouse effect regardless of the presence of vast quantities of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere? If the lapse rate is zero, I believe the first three bullets of your elevator speech will still be valid, but your fourth bullet, the conclusion, would be incorrect.
(I have seen arguments that a lapse rate of zero is possible, but I personally am not persuaded.)

Bill Hunter
January 14, 2012 4:19 pm

David Coe says:
January 14, 2012 at 3:01 pm
“Elevator explanation”
If it were true that a GHG-free atmosphere would find an equilibrium at the average temperature of the surface, why can I tomorrow go out with a few hundred dollars of materials build a solar water heating system that the water in it is higher 24/7 than the average surface temperature of the location I build it at?
This is without any power running strictly on solar energy and convection. Its somewhat a cinch to achieve 10degC even with a storage vessel that is only modestly insulated. With the only means of cooling the upper atmosphere being the wind and conduction with the surface its not going to cool the upper atmosphere at all and equilibrium is really somewhere between the maximum temperature of the surface and the average temperature. I don’t think we can explain all the greenhouse effect with that, but where I have a problem is in the perceived need to have one mechanism explain everything.

LazyTeenager
January 14, 2012 4:20 pm

Michael Hammer says
Willis, I agree with amonst everything you said with one exception. I question the emissivity of fresh snow. Yes cetainly water and ice have IR emissivities very close to 1 but fresh snow is a mixture of ice and air with each “layer” or crystal a few to a few 10′s of microns thick.
———–
Yes Michael, but I think you need to consider the situation at visible and ir wavelengths is different. At visible wavelengths the Water in snow is transparent. At ir wavelengths it is essentially “black”.
As for igloos a comparison needs to be made between the insulatng effect due to low thermal conductivity of snow and the ability of snow to absorb IR. I am guessing the first predominates.

PaulR
January 14, 2012 4:20 pm

This thread should be closed. Willis Eschenbach is driven to exasperation now, writing “God damn it” and “Is stupidity contagious?” Willis is right in his approach in the original post but if he has reached the limit of his patient and polite endurance then it is time to close up shop for the day. Some people just can’t be reasoned with, but being unpleasant at them won’t work either.

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 4:25 pm

ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm
That’s why the surface can get hot, because some of the energy radiated by the surface is absorbed by the atmosphere so we’re not emitting to space more that we’re absorbing. As a result, the last step of your proof is incorrect.
I disagree with Willis. I believe he is double counting. To answer Willis more completely, here is the GHG model I described,
space (==A== surface (==B==) ghg ==C==) space
I believe Willis is saying that because the surface radiates both through A and B, so lets replace the net flow B with H as follows:
space (==A== surface ==H==) ghg ==C==) space
Flow C takes part of its energy from the surface to ghg net of flow B, plus any energy absorbed directly from the sun by the GHG. Thus we can say that:
H + solar absorbed by GHG = C
Since solar absorbed by GHG > 0, then we can say than in all cases with a GHG atmosphere, that:
(result a) H A + H
D > A + H
Since D and (A+H) vary as 4th power of Temp
Temp(D) > Temp(A+H)
Therefore the surface will be hotter on a planet with a non radiant (non GHG ) atmosphere.
QED

PaulR
January 14, 2012 4:26 pm

Paul, I don’t follow this. Why are you stipulating a simplified model of earth that doesn’t receive solar radiation or emit IR? How could it not emit IR? What does this have to do with my statement? Color me confused.
Hans Jellbring stipulates that in his gravity-greenhouse model, not you. The distinction you made between transient versus equilibrium temperatures (with a graphic) was in a different thread.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 4:26 pm

Willis opines:
Tallbloke goes on and on about the N&Z and the Jelbring theories, but he can’t summarize either one … I find that significant.

More innuendo. As you know full well from the email I sent you yesterday, I am awaiting the response to comments paper from N&Z before trying to summarize their work. Why are you misleading people like this? It reflects very poorly on you.
By the way, when will you be snipping Roy Spencer’s reply for not being an elevator speech?

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 4:29 pm

aargh – my post again got trashed by html mistaking LT for the start of an html block

gbaikie
January 14, 2012 4:29 pm

“The most obvious way of transporting “heat” is to simply transport the physical mass of particles that comprise the material under discussion. That process is called CONVECTION and is the main process by which “heat” is transported from a car engine to the radiator, by pumping hot water from the heat source (engine) to the heat sink (radiator).
The other process for transporting heat from one body of material to another, is to place them into contact, so that the particles of one body can collide with and exchange energy with the particles of the other body,without the particles themselves being largely moved from their positions.
That process is called CONDUCTION, and is the mechanism by which the “heat” contained in the “hot” engine block is conveyed to the cooling water, that will then carry it to the radiator by convection.”
Ok. good description
“There is NO way to transport “heat” in the total absence of a physical material that has a rest mass. Furthermore the concept of Temperature has NO meaning, in the absence of materials with mass (real matter).
In particular Electromagnetic Radiation is NOT “heat” nor is it a means of transporting “heat”.
It IS a mechanism for transferring ENERGY; just not HEAT ENERGY.
Electromagnetic Radiation ENERGY can be converted to “HEAT” energy, when it is absorbed in SOME REAL PHYSICAL MATERIAL HAVING MASS, that is unable to convert that energy to ANY OTHER form of energy, such as ELECTRICITY, for example, or SOUND (ACCOUSTIC) energy.
For example, so far as we know, ordinary amounts of electromagnetic radiation energy having ANY frequency or wavelength if absorbed by water, do not result in either electricity, or sound forms of energy; essentially THE MAJORITY of the EM radiation energy absorbed by water is converted to waste “heat”. The only significant exception is when certain RESTRICTED frequencies or wavelengthsof EM radiation energy are re-emitted from the water, as molecular resonance radiation spectral lines or bands.
We get oodles of electromagnetic radiation energy from the sun; we get essentially ZERO “HEAT” from the sun, since there is no real physical material medium to transport any heat from sun to earth.”
Hmm. Energy is transferred, by conduction, convection, and radiation.
You are saying heat is transferred by conduction, convection but not radiation.
Now I would use an analogy that energy of the sun is sort of like room temperature.
In that the distance from the sun is the sun heat. The sun 150 million kilometers closer is 5000 something K, at earth distance it is determined by S-B.
At earth distance the sun is about 120 C [390 K]. As in 390 *390 *390 *390 times .0000000567
being 1311 watts per square meter of solar flux.
What is wrong with thinking of the Sun at earth distance is about 390 K?
And follows thermodynamic laws. The sun can’t warm above 390 K?
I realize it’s not exact. The sun can make plant grow and one have forest fire at 2000 K.
But wrong with using this as approximation- generally the Sun is 390 K at earth distance?

Vergent
January 14, 2012 4:30 pm

“The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power.”
If we are talking about a rotating planet like the moon. It has a hot side and a cold side. At noon it would be cooler say 10C because of the larger thermal mass, and therefore radiating less. At midnight it would have >>10C warmer to radiate the same energy. The average temperature would have to rise to balance the radiation.
QED

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 4:32 pm

Here is another try at posting html
ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm
That’s why the surface can get hot, because some of the energy radiated by the surface is absorbed by the atmosphere so
we’re not emitting to space more that we’re absorbing. As a result, the last step of your proof is incorrect.
I disagree with Willis. I believe he is double counting. To answer Willis more completely, here is the GHG model I
described,
space (==A== surface (==B==) ghg ==C==) space
I believe Willis is saying that because the surface radiates both through A and B, so lets replace the net flow B with H as
follows:
space (==A== surface ==H==) ghg ==C==) space
Flow C takes part of its energy from the surface to ghg net of flow B, plus any energy absorbed directly from the sun by the
GHG. Thus we can say that:
H + solar absorbed by GHG = C
Since solar absorbed by GHG &gt 0, then we can say than in all cases with a GHG atmosphere, that:
(result a) H &lt C
Here is our other model, the non GHG atmosphere, that does not radiate:
space (==D== surface (==E==) no ghg ==F==) zero radiation to space
D + F = solar energy in = radiation out to space
However, since F = 0, this becomes
D + 0 = solar energy in = radiation out to space
Therefore from above:
A + C = solar energy in = radiation out to space
and
D + 0 = solar energy in = radiation out to space
Therefore we can say
A + C = D
and from (result a) above
D = A + C &gt A + H
D &gt A + H
Since D and (A+H) vary as 4th power of Temp
Temp(D) &gt Temp(A+H)
Therefore the surface will be hotter on a planet with a non radiant (non GHG ) atmosphere.
QED

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 4:33 pm

does anyone have a solution so that html doesn’t see the LT and GT characters as html commands?
[Try: & l t ; and: & g t ; (eliminate the spaces between the ampersand, the letters, and the semicolon. Test it on the Test page. ~dbs, mod.]

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 4:33 pm

Willis sez:
I have no responsibility and no desire to spread Jelbrings ascientific BS around

Your discourse is all circumference and no centre.

Ed Fix
January 14, 2012 4:37 pm

Willis, I believe your proof contains a couple of fundamental errors.
I haven’t read the Nikolov and Zeller or Jelbring papers in any great detail, and I haven’t read the comments here, so I don’t know what others have already posted. However, I do understand a bit about S-B radiation, as well as gravitational heating, starting from first principles. So here’s my first draft of an “elevator speech” about gravitational heating and S-B radiation of an atmosphere. I haven’t spent a lot of time refining it, so at this point, the elevator would have to be in a tall building.
I’ll start by stating a couple of assumptions. First, by non-GHG atmosphere, I mean an atmosphere that is perfectly transparent to electromagnetic radiation at all wavelengths. Second, we need to decouple heat and temperature. One way people tend to confuse themselves is by thinking of heat and temperature as the same thing. They’re not. Heat is the kinetic energy of the molecules within a body–either their average velocity in a fluid, or vibrational amplitude in a solid. Temperature is not a measure of energy by itself, just as voltage alone is not a measure of electrical power. It’s a measure of the intensity or concentration of the heat energy within the body. A large body containing a given amount of heat energy has a lower temperature than a smaller body containing the same amount of heat energy.
Now to your errors:
1. “But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.”
No, that’s incorrect. As the temperature of a S-B radiating body rises, the peak of its radiation spectrum shifts to shorter wavelengths. This says nothing about the total energy radiated. You are conflating heat with temperature. The energy emitted by the filament of a 25 watt incandescent bulb at 6000K (if you could build such a thing) would be MUCH less than that emitted by the sun, but have the same spectrum. And if you could build a 25 watt bulb with an 8000K filament (a materials problem, not a theoretical one) it would have a higher temperature S-B spectrum, but no increase in total energy emission. So, yes. It is possible to emit lower energy at the same temperature, or the same energy at higher temperature.
2. You have ignored the fact that even a non-GHG atmosphere is itself a S-B radiating body. Even absent the property of intercepting outgoing longwave radiation, it gains heat energy by conduction, through contact with the planet’s surface. The atmosphere then re-radiates that energy through S-B radiation, but some of it goes back to the surface to be re-absorbed, converted back into heat until it’s transferred to an impinging air molecule again (speeding it up a bit), or radiated as S-B radiation. The overall effect is to slow the radiation of the earth’s heat into space (even without the greenhouse effect), and that necessarily raises the temperature of the atmosphere and the surface. It doesn’t, however, increase the amount of energy radiated–just changes the temperature and spectrum. The S-B radiation of an amorphous body of gas is how we can measure the temperature of gas clouds in interstellar space.
As for gravitational heating, here’s a thought experiment. Imagine a transparent tube in interstellar space (no gravity), 200 km long, one square meter cross sectional area. Fill this tube with some amount of an ideal gas at 0K. That is, each molecule of gas in the tube is motionless. Without gravity, everything remains motionless WRT the tube.
Now instantaneously put an earth-size planet in contact with one end of the tube. All the gas begins to accelerate toward the planet (now the bottom) end of the tube. There will be collisions between gas molecules. That means pressure must increase at the bottom as it decreases at the top. The ideal gas law PV=nRT tells us that with increasing pressure the temperature of the gas will rise. This increased temperature causes the gas to begin emitting S-B radiation.
If no extra energy is imparted to the gas from the surface of the planet, the gas will eventually all settle to the bottom end of the tube, back at 0K. However, the gas’ temperature did rise, and EM energy was emitted. The planet doesn’t have any less gravity than it did before, so where did the energy come from? I don’t know. If you want to say that violates conservation of energy, I can’t dispute it. Maybe if we really knew what gravity is, we could answer the question.
However, if we continuously add 240 W at the bottom of the tube, the gas will reach some equilibrium. When a falling air molecule collides with the bottom, and gets a little extra kick as it rebounds up (conduction heating) gravity still continuously accelerates it back down, therefore continuously keeps the temperature elevated. The fact that energy radiated must equal insolation doesn’t mean the temperature near the ground can’t be above the S-B temperature.
Gravitational heating is real. Does it violate conservation of energy? I dunno.

LazyTeenager
January 14, 2012 4:38 pm

Anythingisposible says
Higher surface pressures elevate surface temperatures by suppressing convection because the greater the weight of the overlying atmosphere, the more energy (heat) is required to enable the process to get under way.
—————-
Nup. There is no indication that higher pressures suppress convection. Convection is driven by differences in buoacy due to temperature differences. That’s all.
The counter examples are easy. Water when heated convects even though it has a much higher density that air. Water convects even at extremely high pressures; witness the behavior of water near deep sea volcanic vents. The atmosphere of Venus convects and thereby establishes a temperature profile defined by the adiabatic lapse rate. The atmosphere of jupiter convects. The horizontal version of this can be seen with a telescope.
The vertical temperature profile of the earths atmosphere is determined by convection. Therefore convection does happen.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 4:40 pm

Hans Jelbring’s peer reviewed 2003 E&E paper:
The “Greenhouse Effect” as a Function of Atmospheric Mass
http://ruby.fgcu.edu/courses/twimberley/EnviroPhilo/FunctionOfMass.pdf

LazyTeenager
January 14, 2012 4:42 pm

beaker says:
January 13, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Just a small correction. Night vision uses a silicon detector and amplifies the available ambient light. Silicon is not responsive in the MW or LWIR, 3-5um and 8-12um, the naturally occuring atmospheric IR windows where us radiometric guys make our measurments. A FLIR or Forward Looking Infrared “see’s” thermal differentials without visible light. I believe you are referring to a FLIR, not night vision.
————
Almost.
There are 2 kinds of night vision. There is a kind which depends on amplifying existing night light levels and another kind which depends on converting themal IR into visible light.

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