Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
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Wow I have read all the comments in this post and now I am far more confused than when I started.For the next thought experiment can you use a planet with beer for an ocean and can it have small tropical islands and lots of hula dancers? It may not help with the science but it will keep my head from hurting,, well till I take a dip in the beer ocean.
kcrucible says:
January 14, 2012 at 11:40 am
True, kcrucible, but 1) we’re not talking about “bodies”, we’re talking about diatomic gases, and 2) only emission in the infrared occurs at the temperatures we are discussing, so other emissions don’t matter because they don’t occur.
Go find what the U of V says about gases before going further.
w.
Richard M says:
January 14, 2012 at 11:11 am
“…. All the planets would warm up until they reached that maximum. If that maximum just happened to be determined by the mass and the gravitation of those planets then we would see exactly what Huffman sees. However, for the surface to warm above the SB calculations there must be an effective radiation altitude above that surface.
We don’t need to discard the GHE. It’s real, it just has limits that haven’t been discovered because of simplifications made to climate models.”
On Earth there is 390 parts per million of CO2 or .04% or 4/10,000th. And Venus has 92 of earth atmospheres, or 92 times 2500 more CO2 than earth. If CO2 added .01 watts per square meter
for earth, Venus could be 230,000 times .01 watts per square meter or 2300 watts per square meter. And having more atmosphere could mean watts keep in the atmosphere rather than make it to space. It could be that CO2 in the amount earth radiates .02 watts, and around half leave, whereas on Venus only say 1/10th of energy leaves.
It seems CO2 can add some heat if exposed to energy of certain frequencies of electromagnetic wavelengths.
Not that know anything about it, but maybe CO2 can absorb longwave IR and via collisions or other absorption of wavelength, emit the energy at a higher wavelength- thereby actual warm a surface which is warmer than the CO2 gas. Or the temperature CO2 gas has nothing to do with temperature it emits. The temperature of any gas is the velocity of the molecules- which has to do with a gas emissivity. There is connection though, because CO2 is suppose to absorbing a “low temperature” wavelength and of course it can emit the same wavelength- and if it doing that it can’t heat up something of same temperature. Nor can block longwave IR by any means other absorbing it.
Anyways it does seem to matter in regards to CO2 and heating earth- even if it heated by 10 watts per square meter, that is insignificant as in loss in the noise,
Man, I am almost getting tired of coming to this web page any more. It seems the intelligence level of any person allowed to post is being quickly dropped to the point of mentally disabled.
The no GHG theory works like this:
• Energy from the sun heats the surface of the Earth.
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal long-wave radiation and transfers heat to the air through conduction.
• The heated air transports the energy upwards into the atmosphere through convection. As the heated air rises it releases some of the energy to space through emission of long-wave radiation. (The idea that any gas is non infrared absorbing and emitting is a myth and nothing more, Both Oxygen2 and Nitrogen2 absorb and emit infrared radiation, we will ignore this for the moment.)
• This raises the point where the 1:1 ratio of incoming and outgoing radiation exists off the physical rocky surface of the Earth and with our current atmosphere that point is about 5km off the ground.
• As a result of the atmosphere moving the point of radiation balance, the lapse rate comes into effect and causes the added warmth at ground level. (The lapse rate it determined by the mass of the atmosphere.)
I’m late to this party, and maybe this has already been said (285 comments, whew), but so long as we are only considering radiative energy transfer, nothing in Willis’ argument says that the ATMOSPHERE can’t be heated by gravity. As long as that heat doesn’t radiate into space, or irradiate the planet surface (Willis’ “transparent, GHG-free atmosphere”), it doesn’t affect the SB equilibrium temperature.
So at least that narrows where to look for how to resolve the seeming conflict between ideal gas law SB equilibrium: the conflict only arises when we start taking kinetic energy transfer into account. Does that help?
I crossposted my comment to Tallbloke’s Talkshop. So far it is still awaiting moderation. Two later comments have made it through.
GabrielHBay says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Only IR is relevant at the temperatures we are discussing. Oxygen may well emit visible if it gets as warm as the sun, I don’t know. But at the temperatures we live at, all that gets emitted/absorbed is infrared.
A gas of that type, in the temperature range discussed, can only gain/lost temperature by conduction.
w.
Willis,
The way you argue your case, or rather lack of it, you would fit really well with the RealClimate. Why dont you introduce new NULL hypothesis: “I am always right and whoever doesn’t like it they can go elsewhere”.
db-uk
My comment is now posted. Thanks Roger.
Frumious Bandersnatch says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Thanks, Frumious. One is a solid, and the other is a diatomic gas.
The surface, being evenly heated, does not experience any internal heat flow.
w.
“Because either you can tell us, simply and clearly, how your “Jelbring effect” is supposed to work, or you are worse than useless and should just audit the discussion because you have nothing to add.”
This is a sad state of affairs. I hate to say this, but there’s a need of a moderator to moderate the moderator.
This debate seems to be over.
Time-out.
Willis,
Your whole argument is pointless. Nikolov & Zeller argued two points:
1) the currently accepted understanding of how to apply physics to a planetary body’s surface temperature is wrong. (i.e. the laws of thermodynamics, Stefan-Boltzman, etc. are correct, they are just being misapplied)
2) based on the (in their view) correct application of physics, they claim to be able to explain what governs a planetary body’s surface temperature.
To clarify, you have to accept (1) in order to understand (2), if they are correct.
What you, Joel Shore, and others keep saying is “based on the currently accepted understanding of how to apply physics to a planetary body’s surface temperature, N&Z’s (2) is clearly wrong” (paraphrasing). Well, yes, I think even they would agree to that. So what?
The only important argument (so far) is whether “the currently accepted understanding of how to apply physics to a planetary body’s surface temperature” is correct or not. So far, all they have come up with is an unsubstantiated and unsupported assertion that it is not. Unless and until they can make their case, the status quo “wins” by default. You don’t have to do anything at all. But it’s clearly a waste of time to argue something that even they would agree with.
“The temperature of the planet would not be affected by the gas.
This is simply a question of thermodynamics. Gravity has no part to play and does not influence the planet temperature.
You, sir, are thus vindicated.”
The problem with that is you assume that earth in sunlight is absorbing the same amount energy regardless of the earth’s surface temperature.
It doesn’t.
Cold pavement absorbs more energy than hot pavement.
The Non GHE gas is like a battery. It doesn’t add energy but it stores it.
On top surfaces the gas takes the energy away- it recharges. If gas did not do this, the surface would warm more and radiate more energy.
The gas is taking energy which would have otherwise be radiated into space.
GabrielHBay says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Clearly, Aldous was as clueless about the value of an elevator speech as are many folks here. Let me reiterate the advantages I listed above:
There is a third advantage. It allows me to determine if someone really understands a theory. For example, Tallbloke goes on and on about the N&Z and the Jelbring theories, but he can’t summarize either one … I find that significant.
If you and Aldous have a real problem with those obviously valuable outcomes, I’d suggest that both of you post elsewhere. Certainly, the elevator speech cannot substitute for full knowledge … but then it is not meant to do so. As to the point that it could lead us astray … so can full knowledge .
But those are not reasons to dismiss it as Huxley does. It still can be of inestimable value.
w.
If gravity is so important then why is the density of the atmosphere not proportional to the mass of the planet?
“”””” Stephen Wilde says:
January 14, 2012 at 1:36 pm
George E Smith said:
“furthermore, the heating that results because all of that work done ends up as waste heat, is a purely transient event, ”
Hi George,
I’m a fan of your work but you’ve missed something there.
It isn’t called a gravitational CONSTANT without good reason. Joel Shore and others make the same mistake.
Gravity is a continuous renewing process which replenishes itself over time. No one knows why or how, not even Einstein, but we must live with it.
So it is NOT a transient effect and the result is PERMANENT all other things being equal.
Without that effect the Ideal Gas Law would not be a Law. “””””
Well Stephen,
I’m not really looking for fans; just the truth and reality.
So I’ll just take my apparatus up to the space station and do the experiment up there in ZERO GRAVITY.
So my gas will still warm up when I compress it, and this time I don’t even need my legal disclaimer about neglecting the weight of the gas, since it is essentially zero; well it is at least orders of magnitude less than the weight was on earth.
So the gas heats by the amount of work I do on it
Just think of a part of a Carnot cycle experiment. But I stop everything with the volume reduced, the quantity of gas unchanged, the pressure and density higher, and the Temperature now slightly elevated above the ambient. The excess “heat” will now conduct through the walls of my apparatus to the surroundings, and the Temperature will come back down to the ambient equilibrium I had before I changed the volume. The amount of gas will still be the same, the volume will still be the same (I made the container out of Invar), so the density will still be the same; but the pressure will settleat a slightly lower pressure in accordance with the gas law. The final Temperature after about five times the thermal time constant will be within 1% of the original Temperature; as I said a transient event..
And the graviational constant (of Einstein ?) is irrelevent to the problem.
And Joel does make some misteaks; but I seriously doubt that he makes that one; he is quite careful.
Unfortunately the link where people can actually see what Hans Jelbring said in his 2003 paper was lost in the carnage of Willis’ censorship spree. Here it is again:
[SNIP: No, you cannot use my thread to drive traffic to your site. Nice try though. -.w]
THANKS WIllis, for setting a great example for how scientifically-oriented Global Warming skeptics should react to a new theory. The N&Z theory reaches conclusions that are favorable to our negative view of the official climate Team hysteria. However, N&Z appear to violate the bedrock science principle of conservation of energy.
Perhaps Ned Nikolov, when he posts the N&Z “reply paper” here at WUWT, will make it clear just what their theory encompasses, and how it avoids violating conservation of energy.
In a comment on my “Unified Climate Theory May Confuse Cause and Effect” thread, I suggest some scientifically sound ways to calculate a warming effect that exceeds the 33K of the conventional accounting.
Until I was forced to think about it by the N&Z theory threads, I did not fully realize the implications of the fact that the 33K conventional number for the Atmospheric “greenhouse” effect (GHE) compares our actual Earth with a very strange imaginary Earth. It must not only have a GHG-free atmosphere of the same mass, but that atmosphere must lack not only CO2 but must also be free of water vapor. So, that imagined Earth would have to be ocean-free as well. Lacking clouds and ice, it would also have to be painted to achieve an albedo of 0.3, equal to that of the actual Earth. Quite an artificial construct! But, it does get us to a mean surface temperature of (no more than the S-B limit) 255K which is 33K less than the measured mean Surface temperature of about 288K.
I was also inclined to accept that the mean temperature of our Moon is around 250K, as published in some mainline sources. That now seems to be on the high side, but I do not think the Moon is as cold as the 155K apparently required by the N&Z theory.
So, even if the N&Z theory turns out to be misguided, it has raised my awareness and understanding, at least a bit.
Let us consider how could we get a number greater than the conventional 33K warming effect of a GHG-Atmosphere? Well, here are two possibilities:
(1) As you state in your initial posting, any atmosphere, even without GHGs, distributes surface heat energy more evenly. The denser the atmosphere the greater the uniformity. That will increase the mean temperature of a planet above the mean of a similar planet that has no atmosphere. This effect, as you correctly state, is good only up to the S-B temperature associated with the mean incoming radiation from the sun.
(2) A planet that already has an atmosphere with GHGs could warm further if we dump a big load of non-GHGs into that atmosphere. Even after equilibriation, the additional pressure/density may result in warming due to the pressure broadening of CO2 and other GHG spectral lines, but again only up to the S-B limit.
So, if one starts with a barren Earth, with no water and no atmosphere, and adds an Atmosphere with both non-GHG gases (e.g., N2) and GHG gases (e.g., CO2), plus oceans full of water to produce the most effective GHG (water vapor), the mean Surface temperatures will be increased by more than the 33K of the conventional accounting.
However, despite the efforts of those who commented on the previous two N&Z theory threads here at WUWT, I cannot see how that additional warming could possibly lead to 133K.
– Ira
PS: As Pops says (January 13, 2012 at 11:17 pm} “One tiny nit, Willis”. Pops is correct that you described night vision goggles (NVG) incorrectly when you wrote:
Yes, NVGs do “let you see in the infrared” but it is in the NEAR infrared, just a bit past the visual range (about 0.7 to 0.9 microns). NVGs do not rely on the radiation given off by everything around us. They are merely image-intensifiers that multiply the reflected moonlight or starlight by tens of thousands of times. NVGs do not work when there is no light, such as with an overcast sky at some distance from populated areas. (While working on avionics systems for Special Forces helicopters, I was invited along on a couple of night-time, low-altitude training missions and had the opportunity to use NVGs.)
As Pops also noted, there are sensor devices called Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) that work in the FAR infrared (centered around the 10 micron peak blackbody emission of the Earth, where there happens to be a good atmospheric window). FLIRs do depend upon everything continually radiating energy in the infrared. (A highlight of FLIR imagery is seeing cows glow in the dark, because they emit more far infrared than the grass below them. Cow flops glow as well.)
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 3:18 pm
Ferd, you claimed that the atmosphere in my example in the head post would be warmer than the surface.
What I said was “for example at the poles”.
Bart says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:19 pm
Since my description is of a system at equilibrium, I fail to see how any of that applies, so my QED is not disturbed by your claims about systems not at equilibrium
w.
“BUT … in willis’ experiment, isn’t the only way he could have a completely (100%) transparent atmosphere would be if that atmosphere had no mass? Others have pointed out that any gas, no matter what it is comprised of, has at least SOME ability to store and radiate? ”
It’s not radiating- it’s convection. Energy is transferred by conduction, convection and radiation- that’s all folks. At room temperature or earth’s temperature heat is best tranfered via conduction. Next, generally is convection, and lastly radiation.
Or there is nothing stopping anyone from transporting energy via light- or micowave, but wires generally easier- small wires can conduct a lot of energy. Of course wires can annoying, and one can transfer energy in different ways.
So the atmosphere is 5.1 x 10^18 kg and the gas molecules are traveling at around 1000 mph.
The energy is 5.1 x 10^18 kg of mass traveling at 1000 mph.
Leonard Weinstein says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:22 pm
God damn it, Leonard, QUOTE MY WORDS. I have no recollection of saying anything of the sort, I don’t know the context, I don’t know if you understood me, I haven’t a clue what you are referring to. STOP THIS VAGUE ACCUSATORY BULLSHIT AND QUOTE MY WORDS.
Is that so hard to understand?
w.
People keep saying that if you double the amount of gas in the atmosphere, you will keep the same temperature profile because the lapse rate is -g/Cp. These same people keep saying that the temperature of the surface will still be the same after the doubling of mass.
I keep checking this, and maybe my math is wrong, but after a few doublings you will get a temperature below absolute zero for the top of the atmosphere. Seems unlikely. Either the -g/Cp does not apply (unlikely), my math is bad (pretty easy exercise, but somewhat likely), or the assumption that the temperature at the surface will stay the same is invalid.
kiwistonewall says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Is stupidity catching? I provided chapter and verse from the IPCC showing that all gases will NOT absorb and emit at all frequencies, and you come back without a cite at all and tell us in essence ‘They do too radiate’!
No, kiwi, they don’t. Hie thee to a textbook, your slip is showing.
w.
pochas says:
January 14, 2012 at 2:44 pm
“I feel compelled to add to the confusion.
It doesn’t matter whether the atmosphere is transparent or opaque. If the atmosphere is transparent the surface will be at the radiating temperature and the atmosphere will get cooler as you ascend. If the atmosphere is opaque the top of the atmosphere will be at the radiating temperature and it will get warmer as you descend.
How does the transparent atmosphere develop the adiabatic lapse rate? ”
The gas doesn’t cool. The atmosphere is colder. But the velocity of the gas remains roughly the same. The velocity of gas molecules is the gas temperature. Stop gas velocity, get absolute zero, speed up gas to some fraction of lightspeed and if they gas are interacting with thing, the gas is hot. On earth average speed of gas molecule is about 500 m/s.
What changes as you go to higher elevation is the gas become less dense. Gas molecules traveling same speed but lower density have less ability to warm things like thermometers.