Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”
So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?
A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.
The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is
Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4
where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.
This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)
Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.
Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.
On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?
Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.
The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:
1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.
2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.
In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.
Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:
The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:
• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.
• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.
• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.
• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.
OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.
I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.
So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?
But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.
I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.
The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.
So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.
Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.
Q.E.D.
Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:
… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.
Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.
And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.
But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …
TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.
w.
NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.
Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.
NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.
But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.
NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:
Water, 0.96 Fresh snow, 0.99 Dry sand, 0.95 Wet sand, 0.96 Forest, deciduous, 0.95 Forest, conifer, 0.97 Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94
and so on down to things like:
Mouse fur, 0.94 Glass, 0.94
You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.
I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …
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tallbloke says:
January 14, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Tallbloke, I said I would snip. I’m snipping. Don’t pretend to be surprised, it makes you look meretricious. Screenshot all you wish, I have nothing to hide.
w.
It is very easy to test backradiation theory. Put a mirror towrads ground approx 2 meters high on a sunny day so that it reflects all IR from the ground to sunny place on a ground. Now measure temperatures from this place where mirror reflects all IR and surroundings. Result from that test is there is no difference in temperature on ground in any spot. Why so, mirror is obviously cooler than the ground and radiation from cooler object can’t warm warmer objects. If you somehow can warm the mirror over the temperature of the ground you might get some little difference depending of the temperature difference. So backradiation warming is pure bulls**t from cooler atmosphere to warmer ground.
Gentlemen, experiments at forty paces.
Willis.
You have been wholesale deleting peoples responses to this thread to leave it looking like most people agree with you.
[Bull. I have been deleting just what I said I would delete, and I should have deleted more. Your pretended surprise that I would actually do what I said I would do doesn’t become you.]
At least I was clear direct and upfront about who was not being allowed to post at the talkshop and the reasons why. You have been removing comments altogether because they disagree with you. It’s all being recorded at the talkshop in real time. Any justification you thought you had for complaining about Joel being barred from posting is out of the window.
[Oh, I see, my subsequent actions after the fact mean that your banning Joel was correct and proper … ]
There was scientific content in my first reply on this thread, and it also contained a reply about the situation with Joel. Your removal of it shows who the real censor is. You are doing yourself terrible damage here. Stop now.
[Tallbloke, every post can be claimed to have scientific content, including yours. I said that I would snip things that were off-topic, which your post most assuredly was. If you (or anyone else) think your post contained actual science that has been deleted incorrectly, then post the scientific part again and we can discuss it. -w.]
Ken Coffman says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Then CO2 comes into play and increases the temperature of these gases even more.
CO2 reduces the temperature of the atmosphere, according to WP which is my bible:
Within the mesosphere, temperature decreases with increasing altitude. This is due to decreasing solar heating and increasing cooling by CO2 radiative emission. The top of the mesosphere, called the mesopause, is the coldest part of Earth’s atmosphere.[1] Temperatures in the upper mesosphere fall as low as −100 °C (173 K; −148 °F),[2] varying according to latitude and season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesosphere
ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:20 am
Right mechanism, wrong conclusion, ferd. GHGs cool the atmosphere because they give it another way to lose heat. But they also warm the atmosphere because they give it another way to gain heat. Most importantly, they decouple the radiation from the surface since there is more than one thing in the system that can radiate.
If there are no GHGs, the surface must radiate (to space, since there are no GHGs) the amount of energy it absorbs. Its radiation is fixed and unchangeable.
If there are GHGs, some of the surface radiation is absorbed by the atmosphere, so the radiation of the surface is no longer fixed.
That’s why a transparent GHG-free gravity/atmosphere can’t warm the surface about theoretical S-B temperature, because the radiation of the surface is fixed.
w.
Gravity does effect temperature, i.e. without gravity there can be no atmosphere and therefore the atmosphere following the basic gas laws at each altitude level DELAYS or slows the rate of radiation back to space via it’s specific heat. Venus is an example of this, given the 90 bar pressure at the surface we expect to see high temperatures maintained even at night time due to the pressure-temperature relationship. Due to the thickness of the atmosphere even the night time side of Venus is quite hot unlike airless Mercury or the Moon on the dark side that approach but do not reach absolute zero.
Moreover it’s not just the atmosphere that slows the rate of IR back to space via it’s specific heat property, it’s also the type of regolith that absorbs energy and then releases that energy according to its own physical properties via density and conductivity, specific heat. E.g. a stone heated in the sun absorbs that heat all the way to the core if the heat is applied to it long enough depending upon it’s material composition, size and shape; then once the sun drops (planet rotates) the stone being slower to release it’s heat than air radiates it’s energy in the IR band back to space for hours until it reaches equilibrium temperature with the surrounding air.
Your argument fails the test of reality because you make the false assumption of time scale and rate of heat conductivity. The fact that the Moon’s surface does not achieve absolute zero during the two weeks of darkness as it revolves around the earth demonstrates this concept of time delayed IR radiation. Basic thermodynamics tells us that the rate of heat transfer (even via radiation) decreases as the temperature differential decreases. Call it a heat storage effect if you will.
Published elevator speech: Ned Nikolov, Ph.D. & Karl Zeller, Ph.D.
Based upon the analysis of data for eight planetary bodies [Mercury, Venus, Earth, Moon, Mars, Europa, Titan and Tritonus] they derived a simple yet robust formula for predicting a planet’s mean surface temperature as a function of only two variables: 1) TOA solar irradiance and 2) mean atmospheric surface pressure.
Plain speaking elevator speech: Harry Dale Huffman
All the supposedly learned theorizing by one and all is precisely worthless, because everyone uses it to ignore the simple, definitive fact that disproves the tyrannously-promulgated carbon dioxide greenhouse effect, and reveals the radiative transfer theory as unconnected from the real thermodynamics of the atmosphere.
kcrucible, January 14, 2012 at 11:40 am
OK, I think by now most people should have got the message that the major constituents of the atmosphere, nitrogen and oxygen. do not absorb or emit long wave infrared radiation. Consequently, they play no part in the greenhouse effect and they cannot cool the atmosphere by radiating energy to space. It is not a difficult concept, so those who haven’t got that yet are not going to get it.
“Simplifying the earth to only consider IR is a gross oversimplification”. No it isn’t. This is what the earth radiates from its surface.
“We have IR being generated from the surface that did not arrive as IR!”. Yes, that is quite possible, in fact it is what happens. So, you got something right.
“So, an atmosphere that acquires heat content from the surface of the earth ….. has the possibility of radiating that energy as microwaves, etc, etc.”.
The wavelengths that a body is able to radiate at are determined by its temperature. The spectrum of wavelength distribution is governed by Planck’s Law. This specifies how much power can be emitted at each wavelength and this is what determines whether it emits UV, infrared, visible, radio waves or microwaves etc. and in what proportion. The temperature of the Earth’s surface dictates that the earth will emit in the infrared. The temperature of the atmosphere dictates that it will also emit in the infrared, if it is able to emit at all. If a body cannot emit within the range of Planck prescribed wavelengths for its temperature, then it will not emit anything. It cannot just decide to emit in some other part of the electromagnetic spectrum instead. Therefore, only the infrared region is pertinent to the greenhouse effect. It is not a gross oversimplification – it is called physics.
Willis,
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, so please forgive me if it has been mentioned. I am in a hurry to paint the family room before my wife gets home so I haven’t thoroughly checked the thread.
You said in a comment earlier that the potential energy of the molecules in the upper atmosphere is greater than at the surface, thus, we have a lapse rate (or something to that effect). If we double the amount of atmosphere, then we would increase the potential energy of the molecules at the top of the atmosphere. Maybe about 1.2 times for the first doubling in my hasty estimation (gravitational potential doesn’t double, and gas is compressible, so something less than the sqrt of 2).
If we increase the potential E of the top molecules of gas, then we increase the KE of the lower levels and we have temperature rise. I don’t see how it matters whether this is a greenhouse gas or not. Maybe I am not understanding where this fits into your argument when you brought it up in the thread.
Willis said:
“Since there is gravity, the atmophere will have a “dry adiabatic lapse rate”, which means that the temperature must drop with altitude. The atmosphere will warm until the bottom layer of the atmosphere has the same temperature as the surface, and has the dry adiabatic temperature profile above the surface. It will neither gain nor lose energy after that, and will be stable with no bulk motion.”
Ok, you’ve accepted the gravity induced dry adiabatic lapse rate.
And you seem to accept that the warming is from the solar irradiated surface and that the lapse rate is supported by conduction from the surface.
That is then the baseline gravity induced GHE as per N & Z and the Ideal Gas Laws. Nice and stable and set by gravity and atmospheric mass alone.
Then one introduces GHGs which have two effects.
They absorb more energy due to their radiative characteristics.
They then radiate 50% up and out of the system and 50% back down to the surface.
The 50% sent upward reduces total system energy content because it is lost to space. That is a cooling process.
The 50 % sent downward destabilises the gravity induced GHE but in turn provokes more convection and on a water planet energises the water cycle too.
Now, convection and the water cycle are cooling mechanisms (evaporation has a huge net cooling effect of 5 to 1 – see latent heat of vapourisation) so that 50% sent downward must be all or mostly negated unless you can show otherwise and the N & Z data seems to show that the negation is pretty much complete.
Which leaves the (admitted) gravitationally induced GHE firmly in control does it not ?
Checkmate ?
The reason, I feel, that people are not paying attention to the model is that it removes the one element that’s necessary to understand earth’s atmosphere. It radiates. Your model is an exercise in pointlessness – it doesn’t model that one tiny little detail that makes earth’s atmosphere tick; it’s full of gases that radiate all over the place and because of those gases radiating all over the place – but specifically radiating outwards at the top – the atmosphere can’t reach an equilibrium and stop circulating. That outward radiation introduces an imbalance that in turn provides a mechanism to create work, by cooling gases much further than lowering their pressure would do in the non-radiating atmosphere your model describes.
That’s why I said you were being disingenuous. Your model doesn’t model anything approaching reality, which is also why I described it as a strawman: it’s a parody of the argument you’re trying to refute with key elements removed.
Finally, since I’m sure my other comment won’t get posted I’m going to rephrase one part of it: you have accused me of being an idiot for supporting the opinion of someone who is, as far as I can tell, making an honest and effective rebuttal of your model. I never attacked you personally, though I did question your motivations. I would be pleased if you never posted on this site again and you can consider this my formal protest against your continued presence.
ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:37 am
Took me a minute to figure out what is wrong with this. It is in the assumption that “net energy radiated to space is a function of temperature”. It is, but for the surface it is also a function of the amount of energy absorbed by the atmosphere. That’s why the surface can get hot, because some of the energy radiated by the surface is absorbed by the atmosphere so we’re not emitting to space more that we’re absorbing.
As a result, the last step of your proof is incorrect.
w.
Willis said:
“If there are no GHGs, the surface must radiate (to space, since there are no GHGs) the amount of energy it absorbs. Its radiation is fixed and unchangeable”
You forgot something.
The Ideal Gas Law means that the warmest molecules of air are at the surface.
Those molecules are at a higher temperature than the average for the atmosphere.
Thus they will inhibit upward energy transfer more than would be the case if the atmosphere were at a cooler average temperature throughout.
That will give a higher surface temperature than predicted by the S-B equation.
crosspatch says:
January 14, 2012 at 12:39 am
“1. The non greenhouse gas atmosphere is a perfect conduction insulator to space, it can’t radiate its heat out.”
What? Everything with a temperature radiates. I don’t care WHAT a substance is, it will cool. It will cool until it reaches equilibrium with its background. Greenhouse has absolutely nothing to do with radiation, it has to do with absorption. Something can be completely transparent to LWIR and still cool down by radiation. A greenhouse gas is something that absorbs LWIR. It has nothing to do with what it radiates. So I can have a non greenhouse gas that heats via direct contact … conduction. It will STILL radiate that heat away. It just didn’t heat by absorbing LWIR.
No it won’t, you need to learn about the physics of gases.
Willis’s theoretical planet, uniformly illuminated from all directions, in the absence of an atmosphere will be at a uniform temperature of Tsb. Add a transparent atmosphere and initially the gases next to the surface would heat up to close to the surface temperature, briefly cooling the surface, as gases conduct poorly the temperature will fall off rapidly with height. This would be unstable so convection cells would form and the temperature profile will approach the adiabatic lapse rate . As the same radiation is incoming and less is leaving because the surface is cooler and the atmosphere can’t radiate the surface will warm up to the original Tsb with a temperature profile at the adiabatic lapse rate.
Double the mass of the atmosphere and the pressure everywhere will double, the surface will achieve the same temperature, Tsb, and the atmosphere will have the same profile, -g/Cp. The only difference would be the time to achieve equilibrium.
Increase the gravity of the planet and the surface pressure will increase and the lapse rate will change but the equilibrium temperature will be the same Tsb, again the only difference would be the time to achieve equilibrium.
Therefore in the absence of GHGs there is no ‘gravitational enhancement’.
Willis, You have your ladder upside down.
LWR reaches and excites the atmosphere to a equal state of LWR emission relative to the atmospheric pressured state of of it’s molecules. The atmosphere reaches a maximum saturation of LWR before any surplus LWR reaches the Earths surface and excites it to it’s maximum saturation of LWR.
In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the surface back to the atmosphere.
None of reflected energy from the Earths surface is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere, as they are already excited to a state of maximum LWR.
INMO, LWR steps down to the surface but uses a elevator to get back up. Due to the different atmospheres of Earth, strats & tops, It’s like, two steps down, one step up.
How does LWR from our Sun pass through GHG’s with no effect but the same GHG’s are not effected by the Earths surface emissions? Your steps mean a gas sphere held by gravity, would have the same T as deep space.
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 14, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Tallbloke, I said I would snip. I’m snipping. Don’t pretend to be surprised, it makes you look meretricious. Screenshot all you wish, I have nothing to hide.
Willis, censorship has no place in the discussion. What sets WUWT apart from RC is the ability to express ideas right or wrong. Lose that right, and tyranny will follow.
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
Gina Becker says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:57 am
Thanks, Gina. I appreciate your comment.
People keep trying to come up with novel mechanisms for the putative warming. What they don’t understand is, I don’t care about the mechanisms. My proof applies to any and all such mechanisms, so the details are unimportant. Won’t stop the speculation of how gravity brings energy from the top to the bottom and the like, I suppose …
w.
“That’s why the surface can get hot, because some of the energy radiated by the surface is absorbed by the atmosphere so we’re not emitting to space more that we’re absorbing.”
Which is why the equilibrium temperature rises intead ?
ferd berple, yes, you didn’t discuss surface radiation entering the atmosphere, but that is part of the surface radiation, and if you are equating radiation to temperature, you have to consider it too because temperature affects both parts.
JimOfCP says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:03 am
Thanks, Jim. That’s the range covered by Geiger, so I used it. If you want more info, look at the modis link I gave above.
w.
JEEZ. I Meant;
How does LWR from our Sun pass through GHG’s with no effect but the same GHG’s are effected by the Earths surface emissions?
ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:06 am
GHG-free atmosphere, ferd. GHG-free, doesn’t radiate in the IR … is my writing really that unclear?
w.
Willis
As usual a clear and simple post.
Your reductio ad absurdum as presented with note 1 is all you need to convince me that there is a problem with N&Z.
Does such a planet exist, probably not.
Is the Earth more complex, yes. But it does not take anything away from your argument.
Dr Brown.
In the planet that Willis describes it is surrounded by mini suns. Incoming energy is evenly distributed over the entire surface, pole to equator. As presented I do not see any lateral heat transport, rotating or not.
Is my understanding correct?
Hans Jelbring says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:08 am
lateposter says: January 14, 2012 at 9:13 am
Hans, good to hear from you. It is quite possible that I do not understand your theory. But if you yourself refuse to give us a simplified version containing only the salient scientific facts, aka the “elevator speech”, then I’m afraid you are posting in the wrong thread.
How does your proposed effect work, Hans?
Here you have a literate and interested audience. But if all you can say is to wave your hand at your paper, what good are you? I tried reading that. It didn’t make sense. So give us the easy-to-understand version, Hans, so we can get a hold on what your claim is. I don’t want to depend on my own admittedly flawed understanding.
Because either you can tell us, simply and clearly, how your “Jelbring effect” is supposed to work, or you are worse than useless and should just audit the discussion because you have nothing to add.
This is crunch time, Hans, this is where the rubber hits the road. There’s enough heat already, give us some light. Give us your elevator speech about your grand theory that will revolutionize science. Explain your stupendous ideas clearly in a few well-thought-out sentences. You’ll never have a better or larger audience for your words.
You and I have spent hours on this topic. I still don’t understand how the “Jelbring Effect” works. So fight my ignorance, let me know clearly and cleanly just what happens first, and what happens next, see my example of an “elevator speech” in the head post.
Or walk away, I truly don’t care, Hans. This kind of stuff hurts my head, which I should have examined for posting this thread …
Thanks,
w.