A Matter of Some Gravity

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

A couple of apparently related theories have been making the rounds lately. One is by Nikolov and Zeller (N&Z), expounded here and replied to here on WUWT. The other is by Hans Jelbring, discussed at Tallblokes Talkshop. As I understand their theories, they say that the combination of gravity plus an atmosphere without greenhouse gases (GHGs) is capable of doing what the greenhouse effect does—raise the earth at least 30°C above what we might call the “theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) temperature.”

So what is the S-B temperature, theoretical or otherwise?

A curious fact is that almost everything around us is continually radiating energy in the infrared frequencies. You, me, the trees, the ocean, clouds, ice, all the common stuff gives off infrared radiation. That’s how night-vision goggles work, they let you see in the infrared. Here’s another oddity. Ice, despite being brilliant white because it reflects slmost all visible light, absorbs infrared very well (absorptivity > 0.90). It turns out that most things absorb (and thus emit) infrared quite well, including the ocean, and plants (see Note 3 below). Because of this, the planet is often treated as a “blackbody” for IR, a perfect absorber and a perfect emitter of infrared radiation. The error introduced in that way is small for first-cut calculations.

The Stefan-Boltzmann equation specifies how much radiation is emitted at a given temperature. It states that the radiation increases much faster than the temperature. It turns out that radiation is proportional to absolute temperature to the fourth power. The equation, for those math inclined, is

Radiation = Emissivity times SBconstant times Temperature^4

where the Stefan-Boltzmann constant is a tiny number, 0.0000000567 (5.67E-8). For a blackbody, emissivity = 1.

This “fourth-power” dependence means that if you double the absolute temperature (measured in kelvins), you get sixteen (2^4) times the radiation (measured in watts per square metre, “W/m2”). We can also look at it the other way, that temperature varies as the fourth root of radiation. That means if we double the radiation, the temperature only goes up by about 20% (2^0.25)

Let me call the “theoretical S-B temperature” the temperature that an evenly heated stationary blackbody planet in outer space would have for a given level of incoming radiation in W/m2. It is “theoretical”, because a real, revolving airless planet getting heated by a sun  with the same average radiation will be cooler than that theoretical S-B temperature. We might imagine that there are thousands of mini-suns in a sphere around the planet, so the surface heating is perfectly even.

Figure 1. Planet lit by multiple suns. Image Source.

On average day and night over the planetary surface, the Earth receives about 240 W/m2 of energy from the sun. The theoretical S-B temperature for this amount of radiation (if it were evenly distributed) is about -18°C, well below freezing. But instead of being frozen, the planet is at about +14°C or so. That’s about thirty degrees above the theoretical S-B temperature. So why isn’t the planet a block of ice?

Let me take a short detour on the way to answering that question in order to introduce the concept of the “elevator speech” to those unfamiliar with the idea.

The “elevator speech” is simply a distillation of an idea down to its very basics. It is how I would explain my idea to you if I only had the length of an elevator ride to explain it. As such it has two extremely important functions:

1. It forces me to clarify my own ideas on whatever I’m discussing. I can’t get into handwaving and hyperbole, I can’t be unclear about what I’m claiming, if I only have a few sentences to work with.

2. It allows me to clearly communicate those ideas to others.

In recent discussions on the subject, I have been asking for that kind of “elevator speech” distillation of Jelbring’s or Nikolov’s ideas, so that a) I can see if whoever is explaining the theory really understands what they are saying and, if so, then b) so that I can gain an understanding of the ideas of Jelbring or Nikolov to see if I am missing something important.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. Here’s an elevator speech about the greenhouse effect:

The poorly-named “greenhouse effect” works as follows:

• The surface of the earth emits energy in the form of thermal longwave radiation.

• Some of that energy is absorbed by greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere.

• In turn, some of that absorbed energy is radiated by the atmosphere back to the surface.

• As a result of absorbing that energy from the atmosphere, the surface is warmer than it would be in the absence of the GHGs.

 OK, that’s my elevator speech about why the Earth is not a block of ice. Note that it is not just saying what is happening. It is saying how it is happening as well.

I have asked, over and over, on various threads, for people who understand either the N&Z theory or the Jelbring theory, to give me the equivalent elevator speech regarding either or both of those theories. I have gotten nothing scientific so far. Oh, there’s the usual handwaving, vague claims of things like ‘the extra heat at the surface, is just borrowed by the work due to gravity, from the higher up regions of the atmosphere‘ with no mechanism for the “borrowing”, that kind of empty statement. But nothing with any meat, nothing with any substance, nothing with any explanatory value or scientific content.

So to begin with, let me renew my call for the elevator speech on either theory. Both of them make my head hurt, I can’t really follow their vague descriptions. So … is anyone who understands either theory willing to step forward and explain it in four or five sentences?

But that’s not really why I’m writing this. I’m writing this because of the claims of the promoters of the two theories. They say that somehow a combination of gravity and a transparent, GHG-free atmosphere can conspire to push the temperature of a planet well above the theoretical S-B temperature, to a condition similar to that of the Earth.

I hold that with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere, neither the hypothetical “N&Z effect” nor the “Jelbring effect” can possibly raise the planetary temperature above the theoretical S-B temperature. But I also make a much more general claim. I hold it can be proven that there is no possible mechanism involving gravity and the atmosphere that can raise the temperature of a planet with a transparent GHG-free atmosphere above the theoretical S-B temperature.

The proof is by contradiction. This is a proof where you assume that the theorem is right, and then show that if it is right it leads to an impossible situation, so it cannot possibly be right.

So let us assume that we have the airless perfectly evenly heated blackbody planet that I spoke of above, evenly surrounded by a sphere of mini-suns. The temperature of this theoretical planet is, of course, the theoretical S-B temperature.

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.

But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.

And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

Q.E.D.

Now, I’m happy for folks to comment on this proof, or to give us their elevator speech about the Jelbring or the N&Z hypothesis. I’m not happy to be abused for my supposed stupidity, nor attacked for my views, nor pilloried for claimed errors of commission and omission. People are already way too passionate about this stuff. Roger Tattersall, the author of the blog “Tallbloke’s Talkshop”, has banned Joel Shore for saying that the N&Z hypothesis violates conservation of energy. Roger’s exact words to Joel were:

… you’re not posting here unless and until you apologise to Nikolov and Zeller for spreading misinformation about conservation of energy in their theory all over the blogosphere and failing to correct it.

Now, I have done the very same thing that Joel did. I’ve said around the web that the N&Z theory violates conservation of energy. So I went to the Talkshop and asked, even implored, Roger not to do such a foolish and anti-scientific thing as banning someone for their scientific views. Since I hold the same views and I committed the same thought-crimes, it was more than theoretical to me. Roger has remained obdurate, however, so I am no longer able to post there in good conscience. Roger Tallbloke has been a gentleman throughout, as is his style, and I hated to leave. But I did what Joel did, I too said N&Z violated conservation of energy, so in solidarity and fairness I’m not posting at the Talkshop anymore.

And more to the point, even if I hadn’t done what Joel did, my practice is to never post at or even visit sites like RealClimate, Tamino’s, and now Tallbloke’s Talkshop, places that ban and censor scientific views. I don’t want to be responsible for their page views counter to go up by even one. Banning and censorship are anathema to me, and I protest them in the only way I can. I leave them behind to discuss their ideas in their now cleansed, peaceful, sanitized, and intellectually sterile echo chamber, free from those pesky contrary views … and I invite others to vote with their feet as well.

But I digress, my point is that passions are running high on this topic, so let’s see if we can keep the discussion at least relatively chill …

TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong, or who will give us your elevator speech about the science underlying either N&K or Jelbring’s theory. No new theories need apply, we have enough for this post. And no long complicated explanations, please. I have boiled the greenhouse effect down to four sentences. See if you can match that regarding the N&K or the Jelbring effect.

w.

NOTE 1: Here’s the thing about a planet with a transparent atmosphere. There is only one object that can radiate to space, the surface. As a result, it is constrained to emit the exact amount of radiation it absorbs. So there are no gravity/atmospheric phenomena that can change that. It cannot emit more or less than what it absorbs while staying at the same temperature, conservation of energy ensures that. This means that while the temperature can be lower than the theoretical S-B temperature, as is the case with the moon, it cannot be more than the theoretical S-B temperature. To do that it would have to radiate more than it is receiving, and that breaks the conservation of energy.

Once you have GHGs in the atmosphere, of course, some of the surface radiation can get absorbed in the atmosphere. In that case, the surface radiation is no longer constrained, and the surface is free to take up a higher temperature while the system as a whole emits the same amount of radiation to space that it absorbs.

NOTE 2: An atmosphere, even a GHG-free atmosphere, can reduce the cooling due to uneven insolation. The hottest possible average temperature for a given average level of radiation (W/m2) occurs when the heating is uniform in both time and space. If the total surface radiation remains the same (as it must with a transparent atmosphere), any variations in temperature from that uniform state will lower the average temperature. Variations include day/night temperature differences, and equator/polar differences. Since any atmosphere can reduce the size of e.g. day/night temperature swings, even a transparent GHG-free atmosphere will reduce the amount of cooling caused by the temperature swings. See here for further discussion.

But what such an atmosphere cannot do is raise the temperature beyond the theoretical maximum average temperature for that given level of incoming radiation. That’s against the law … of conservation of energy.

NOTE 3: My bible for many things climatish, including the emissivity (which is equal to the absorptivity) of common substances, is Geiger’s The Climate Near The Ground, first published sometime around the fifties when people still measured things instead of modeling them. He gives the following figures for IR emissivity at 9 to 12 microns:

Water, 0.96

Fresh snow, 0.99

Dry sand, 0.95

Wet sand, 0.96

Forest, deciduous, 0.95

Forest, conifer, 0.97

Leaves Corn, Beans, 0.94

and so on down to things like:

Mouse fur, 0.94

Glass, 0.94

You can see why the error from considering the earth as a blackbody in the IR is quite small.

I must admit, though, that I do greatly enjoy the idea of some boffin at midnight in his laboratory measuring the emissivity of common substances when he hears the snap of the mousetrap he set earlier, and he thinks, hmmm …

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George E. Smith;
January 14, 2012 12:54 pm

“”””” Genghis says:
January 14, 2012 at 9:21 am
I think some seem to be missing the obvious part here. If you take a volume of gas at a given temperature and compress it, the same gas in a smaller volume now has a higher temperature, due to the compression and resulting density “””””
Not true !
The same gas in the smaller volume, now has a higher Temperature, DUE TO THE WORK DONE ON IT TO COMPRESS IT.
The volume (V) of gas has some surface area(A) depending on the geometry of the container, and neglecting the weight of the gas itself, that surface experiences some pressure P everywhere on the surface.
So the total force pressing on the container, and vice versa is given by F = P.A
So now if you move every pointon that container surface inward by an infinitessimal distance ds, the total wark done is force times distance W = F.ds = P.A.ds = P.dV, where A.ds = dV the change in Volume.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the density of the gas, and furthermore, the heating that results because all of that work done ends up as waste heat, is a purely transient event, so it is NOT a new stable state of the gas; which will eventually return to the ambient Temperature with a reduced volume, and an increased density.

Richard M
January 14, 2012 12:55 pm

Eric Barnes says:
January 14, 2012 at 11:48 am
[Richard M says:
January 14, 2012 at 11:11 am
Not a coincidence at all if there is a maximum greenhouse effect. ]
Convenient explanation.
So we’ve maxed out at 390ppm CO2 and our current level of water vapor/methane?
Watch how far you back up. The cliff of never ending rationalization is near.

I was simply pointing out there does exist another simple explanation. Is it true, well one shouldn’t ignore all possibilities dealing with physics. You can heat water forever and it won’t get much warmer than 100C. Why not 1,000,000C? The answer we all know has to do with the physics of water.
In fact, the maximum could occur at much lower concentrations of CO2 simply because CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas. Remember, I said a maximum GHE, not necessarily a maximum if CO2 was the only GHG. Also, it could be not an actual maximum, just a threshold where increases take so much additional GHGs that the result is effectively a maximum.
All it really takes is a catalyst that enhances the GHE at low concentrations so it maxes out before one would normally expect. In a gravitation field with constant downward acceleration we might not have a linear response.

Stephen Wilde
January 14, 2012 12:56 pm

Stephen Wilde says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:19 am
Willis, my post, as above, awaits your attention 🙂
I think it is as good an elevator speech as you could reasonably expect.

January 14, 2012 12:58 pm

I feel sorry for Mother Nature–she so desperately wants to randomize the universe that she’ll even apply forth-power gain to motivate radiation in the cause of entropy. But then she comes up against gases like Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon and regardless of her futile frustration, there is nothing she can do as these stubborn gases hold their acquired energy forever. Couple thermal energy into them and there it stays for all eternity.Then CO2 comes into play and increases the temperature of these gases even more. Oh, how our Mother is vexed and powerless. I wish I could send her a bouquet of flowers and a bottle of wine.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 12:59 pm

Willis says
“TO CONCLUDE: I’m interested in people who can either show that my proof is wrong”

I have shown Willis that his proof is wrong here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/13/a-matter-of-some-gravity/#comment-863688
[Tallbloke, I snipped that because it had no scientific content. Post your elevator speech or give it up. -w.]
It is an easy to understand demonstration that his assertion that Hans Jelbring’s 2003 E&E paper violates the laws of thermodynamics because of considerations regarding radiation to space is incorrect. I provided him the same demonstration in email yesterday. The demonstration consists of two lines from the very paper Willis attacks. They are:
“A simplified model of Earth will be considered. The model planet does not rotate. It
neither receives solar radiation nor emits infrared radiation into space.

Willis has been unresponsive regarding this demonstration both in email yesterday and on this thread he subsequently posted here at WUWT.
Joel Shore made similar accusations, also unsupported by fact, against Nikolov and Zeller. I have offered him a guest post in which to lay out his objections formally. This offer was declined.
It is now a matter of public record that Willis has been formally alerted to the failure of his ‘proof’. I will record this on my website in a new post. Since Willis hasn’t responded to my demonstration of the failure of his ‘proof’ here, any whining about his inability to respond on my website due to his self banning will be met with the derision and ridicule it deserves in a place his snipping scissors cannot reach.
I will not have people who ignore correct formal scientific points directly offered to them multiple times and who then continue to cast demonstrably false slurs against reputable scientists posting comments on my site. They can cry “censorship” all they like, but it doesn’t cut it with me, especially when they have censored parts of adverse comments here on this thread, and deleted others completely.
[Tallbloke, first give us your elevator speech about Jelbring’s hypothesis. Until then, I will not believe you understand it well enough to “prove” anything. You have not shown that my proof has “failed” as you claim, record it on your website or not.
Finally, what “demonstrably false slurs” by Joel are you talking about? You keep making accusations without a shred of proof or even a hint of evidence, which I suppose shouldn’t surprise me by now, but still does. I snipped the last bunch, but I left these in so people can see your willingness to make unsupported accusations.
-w.]

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Consider a simple analogy. [SNIP: Consider instead giving and elevator speech or disprove my proof, but no vague handwaving. -w.]

Anton Eagle
January 14, 2012 1:06 pm

Good article Willis.
I think I am being persuaded by your argument. But, I have one lingering question.
Although I fully understand that N2 and 02 are not IR absorbers (different bond energy), my question is the following. Lets say I manage to heat up some non-GH gas through some other means other than a radiative process… and then isolate it so that conduction and convection are no longer possible… will the non-GH gas not radiate? Will the temperature just hold constant forever?
That seems unlikely, but I admit I am unsure. Even if they do not radiate in the IR spectrum, it still seems like the non-GH gas would still eventually radiate all its energy away… perhaps at some other frequency?
So, even if a non-GH gas atmosphere were transparent to IR, it still seems like it could participate in radiative processes once heated. If a planet heats its atmosphere through conduction and convection, it still seems like the atmosphere could then radiate some of that energy away to space, even if its not at IR frequencies.
-Anton

Archonix
January 14, 2012 1:07 pm

[SNIP: If you wish to accuse me of being disingenuous, quote my words or go home. I won’t stand for this kind of vague nasty accusation, that’s a slimy tactic. And if you believe a man like Tallbloke, who censors scientific opinion that he disagrees with, you are an idiot. -w.]
Well, Willis, since you took out the substantive part of my post and then called me an idiot I really have nothing more to say to you on the subject except, as you have opened that door: you are an arrogant, insufferable ideologue who refuses to countenance the possibility that other ideas may be better than your own. You have constantly belittled and attacked anyone who disagrees with you, characterise your opponents as ignorant fools, accuse them of the very tactics you use against anyone whoholds a differing opinion to your own and act as if you’re God’s own gift to the internet. In short, sir, your condescension ill behoves a scientist as you claim to be.
Consider this a formal protest at your behaviour, your arguments and your continued presence on this site.
Graham Dawson
[Your protest is noted. I also note that you have said absolutely nothing scientific in your post at all, you just whined about what a terrible awful person I am.
I called you an idiot because you obviously believed the bull that Tallbloke was spouting. You didn’t ask me if Tallbloke was right, you didn’t check your sources, you just started out your post by saying I was being disingenuous but didn’t say where.
Now, you have come back and once again, just like in your first post, you start out with the accusations. Now the problem is that I’m an arrogant insufferable ideologue … well, that’s all good to know, and I’m sure it does one important thing—it might, just might, make people forget that there isn’t a scrap of science in this post.
w.]

NoIdea
January 14, 2012 1:09 pm

Thanks Willis but I’ll pass. I don’t think there is any more ‘science’ in Huffman’s claims than that. That is perhaps his weakest point – he does not bother to debate the detail. The Venus stuff is essential for the simple reason that he claims it is the comparison between the two that is the critical issue. There is no ‘runaway’ GE on Venus – the temperature at various pressure levels conforms to the profile of the ‘standard atmosphere’. Were the earth’s atmosphere substantially deeper, then the temperature near the surface would be higher. I suspect that means that the temperature in say a deep hole (mine) on the earth would be higher (absent any geothermal effects that is).
I thought the point of the elevator speech was to describe in concise terms what is happening. And I think it’s pretty clear what he claims. How deep into science you’d need to go to prove/disprove his analysis I have no idea.
My question was merely to what extent does his claim differ from N&Z, as to me they appear largely similar. I’m in no position to judge however.

Stephen Wilde
January 14, 2012 1:09 pm

Well said, TB.
My post appears on your blog too but I refined it slightly, above.
I want to hear Wilis’s reply and if he can show that my formulation is incorrect then c’est la vie 🙂
Mind you, I do entirely agree with Willis’s fine ‘Thermostat’ idea but still think he should have extended it globally as I have done.

P Wilson
January 14, 2012 1:12 pm

If the proof is in contradiction: The basal metabolic rate of a human is 58wm2. A human is on average 2m2 thus the average human emits around 100m2 of radiation. YET: Infrared devices record humans as a glowing patch, yet the ambient background is dark. Thus at night the earth emits FAR LESS than 100wm2.
The S-B equation is a gross oversimplification. It is a theoretical tool that expresses the relation between temperature and radiation emitted from a surface. As it is a single equation, it is applied to all surfaces, gas or liquid or solid without any regard whatsoever for their properties. Air for example has little very low heat capacity, and is not even a surface, but a 3 dimensional gas which emits virtually nothing compared to a solid. Solids themselves give off very little radiation at standard/average temperatures.
the absurdity of the results from this equation is not science.
In fact, very little radiation is given off by surfaces at normal temperatures. In terms of the earth, it is probably about a tenth (1/10) of the radiation given off by a human.
The SB equation for example gives water at freezing (0c) as 315Wm2, if 5.67051 x 10-8 x K4.
That is the equivalent heat emission of three combined people at body temperature on an average day.

January 14, 2012 1:13 pm

Wow! Too many posts to read in detail so I skimmed and hit what appeared to be the best ones.
My conclusion:
I would second Willis’s elevator speech and fully agree with his thought experiment as posed.
Some of the fallacies (in my opinion) demonstrated by posters to my mind are:
-gravitational compression elevating surface / atmospheric temperature.
-atmospheric convection having a role in this thought experiment.
-non greenhouse gases emit significant black body long wave radiation.
This kind of esoteric topic seems to generate a great deal of heat, so to speak. I hope you and tallbloke can kiss and make up. The same for tallbloke and Joel Shore.

Jim D
January 14, 2012 1:21 pm

Part of the confusion is that Jelbring defines the GHG effect differently from just about everyone else, as mentioned above by lateposter, and as you can see from the paper. If you eliminate solar and IR radiation, you are also eliminating the greenhouse effect and all you have left to explain everything is gravity, so what is being explained is not the greenhouse effect, but just the classical lapse rate effect, which is also explained in the first chapter of any atmospheric textbook.

Bill H
January 14, 2012 1:24 pm

ferd berple says:
January 14, 2012 at 11:01 am
Exactly. In the absence of GHG, the atmosphere would not be able to lose energy to space. Any energy lost to the atmosphere from the surface would eventually be returned to the surface.
In contrast, with a GHG atmosphere, energy lost from the surface to the atmosphere can then be radiated to space by the atmosphere and need not be returned to the surface.
Thus, without a GHG atmosphere, S-B tells us that the surface of the planet must warm to radiate this excess energy, that is no longer being radiated away by the atmosphere.
———————————————————————————-
with the absence of a pathway for IR to “radiate” the black body will warm to the point of equilibrium that CONVECTION will control the balancing of incoming and out going energy.
in the absence of convection (even in a non GHG atmosphere) the black body will warm until it begins burning. without one or the other to remove heat the body will get very hot.. a non conductive atmosphere will stop energy loss at night
Convection passes heat from molecule to molecule and with each transference, a loss of energy to space. Gravity compresses the molecules in close proximity and as it diminishes allows further space between them.. Thus gravity controls the rate of convection.
as a layman its a rather simple concept.

January 14, 2012 1:26 pm

Now suppose we add an atmosphere to the planet, a transparent GHG-free atmosphere. If the theories of N&K and Jelbring are correct, the temperature of the planet will rise.
But when the temperature of a perfect blackbody planet rises … the surface radiation of that planet must rise as well.
And because the atmosphere is transparent, this means that the planet is radiating to space more energy than it receives. This is an obvious violation of conservation of energy, so any theories proposing such a warming must be incorrect.

This is not correct. Add an atmosphere to a rotating planet with an inhomogeneous temperature distribution, hottest at the equator, coldest at the poles. If you use this as your baseline temperature instead of an ideal blackbody, adding an atmosphere enables lateral heat transport (whether or not the atmosphere radiates, surely it convects and conducts). This move heat from the hot equator towards the colder poles, which produces net heating as in an increase in mean surface temperature for the same insolation.
The reason your last statement isn’t correct is that things aren’t linear. T^4 is not linear. ^4 \ne . This is what davidmhoffer has been pointing out in the other thread. As long as one can transport heat in air or water, one can achieve “heating” of the average temperature while maintaining balance.
However, this doesn’t effect your general argument. I have no idea what N&Z could possibly be saying either. Some of what I read sounded like complete nonsense — connecting PV = NkT to the effect, for example, and making noises about gravity being a “source” for additional heating or the like.
The only thing that I can imagine that makes sense is this. If the atmosphere of a planet is thick enough that you cannot see the ground, and is layered so that relatively transparent gases live outside relatively opaque gases, you end up achieving energy balance at some atmospheric height that leads to some equilibrium temperature there (recall you have BCs of “low pressure, cold” somewhere above the surface at the top of the transparent zone). You then have an e.g. adiabatic lapse rate all the way to the ground. So the ground is much warmer. That suffices to describe Venus — somewhere high above the surface, there is a maximum height from which energy directly radiates, and from that height down the atmosphere gets hotter because of the increase in pressure and equilibrium.
The Earth is completely different, though — the surface radiates directly and there is a lapse rate with an atmosphere in between that radiates energy from many heights and temperatures (but only in certain bands). The lapse rate is due to gravity and thermodynamics, sure, but that’s not news, nor is it the “cause” of the warming. As you say, in a perfectly transparent atmosphere with no lateral heat transport there would be no surface warming caused by the atmosphere, because the atmosphere would be in quasi-static thermal equilibrium with the surface and would not lose energy at all on the outside (air-vacuum) interface. The only way I can think of that it would
“warm” is by buffering the incoming heat so that it produced a smaller warming in the first place, then released it to slow the cooling as well, again by moving the temperature everywhere closer to uniform.
rgb

Alan Wilkinson
January 14, 2012 1:27 pm

Roy Spencer’s comment is incontestable. If the atmosphere is transparent to radiation then there is no convection, it must become isothermal via conduction and cannot alter the radiating surface temperature at equilibrium.
Dr Jelbring seems to contest his model is based on a transparent atmosphere reference but leaves me no wiser as to what if anything it proves.

January 14, 2012 1:28 pm

The previous reply once again ate my < type brackets, sorry, that were supposed to denote averages. It said "T to the fourth average is not equal to T average to the fourth". A very common problem in the discussion is conflating the two as if they are somehow equal.
rgb

George E. Smith;
January 14, 2012 1:31 pm

[SNIP: stick to elevator speeches or disproving my proof. Vague meanderings need not apply, nor long expositions on basic theory. Sorry, w.]

ferd berple
January 14, 2012 1:33 pm

Jim D says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:48 am
The problem with ferd berple’s argument is that just because GHGs reduce the amount of surface radiation escaping to space, you can’t conclude that there is less surface radiation entering the atmosphere
At no time did I discuss surface radiation entering the atmosphere. One the contrary my proof relies upon “net energy escaping to space”.
A large part of the confusion in climate science is a result of analysis of GROSS energy, which leads to the problems of calculating energy transfer between the surface and atmosphere, convection, back radiation, etc. etc. My proof purposely avoids this confusion.
As soon as you consider only the net transfer in energy from the surface to space and from the atmosphere to space, the problem is crystal clear. There is no need to calculate the relative transfer between the surface and atmosphere, because in the end it is the radiation to space that must balance. Radiation in = radiation out.
A second part of my proof was to compare two planets, one with a radiating atmosphere and one without. Rather than avoid the confusion of trying to calculate temperature, I used the simplifying device of an inequality. My point wasn’t to show how much effect GHG has, only the sign of the effect.
My proof shows that the standard model of GHG theory has the sign reversed. In which case this lends weight to the gravity model of regulating planetary surface temperature, and assigns GHG a secondary role in redistributing energy between the surface and atmosphere.

tallbloke
January 14, 2012 1:35 pm

Wow, Willis’ censor’s scissors have been busy here in the last few minutes. Good job I screenshotted relevant posts.

Stephen Wilde
January 14, 2012 1:36 pm

George E Smith said:
“furthermore, the heating that results because all of that work done ends up as waste heat, is a purely transient event, ”
Hi George,
I’m a fan of your work but you’ve missed something there.
It isn’t called a gravitational CONSTANT without good reason. Joel Shore and others make the same mistake.
Gravity is a continuous renewing process which replenishes itself over time. No one knows why or how, not even Einstein, but we must live with it.
So it is NOT a transient effect and the result is PERMANENT all other things being equal.
Without that effect the Ideal Gas Law would not be a Law.

January 14, 2012 1:37 pm

TimC says:
January 14, 2012 at 10:46 am
Willis said (to Crosspatch): “I will repeat it again. If there are no GHGs in the atmosphere, the atmosphere will not and cannot radiate energy. That’s the whole point. The only thing that can radiate is the surface. You keep claiming the atmosphere will radiate. It will not.”
I don’t profess to any real knowledge of thermodynamics but isn’t this then postulating (a) an atmosphere with mass, (b) capable of convection and conduction, and (c) with its own localised temperatures and gradients (separate from the surface temperature, although no doubt coupled to it, with lags).
Why can’t such an atmosphere radiate? Suppose, instead of surrounding a planet, it was just a cloud of the (hypothetical) transparent gas, in space. Would there be no way of physically detecting it’s presence, outside the gas envelope itself?
I’m smelling an impossible premise here, somewhere.

An atmosphere of Argon fits the bill, M=40, can conduct and convect, will have a lapse rate, this atmosphere will not radiate. No impossible premise.

Craig Moore
January 14, 2012 1:39 pm

I humbly ask that everyone stop the derision, ridicule, slurs and snide remarks. I have been a fan of both Tallbloke and Willis. Either take it to the alley or transcend the silliness.
Here’s my simple understanding. Take a water bottle and fill with boiling water or with equal temperature gases. Don’t care. Hold up your hand an inch away. Does the heat radiate to warm your hand? Isn’t the atmosphere under pressure from gravity also the the gas in the water bottle?
By the way can’t both positions be true that there is a GH effect and gravity/atmosphere pressure working together?

kwik
January 14, 2012 1:39 pm

[SNIP: stick to elevator speeches or disproving my proof. Your snark is not appreciated. Sorry, w.]

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